California Passes 'Treatment Not Tents' Prop 1 | Drudge Retort

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Thursday, March 21, 2024

California Passes 'Treatment Not Tents' Prop 1

Proposition 1, the ballot measure supported by Gov. Gavin Newsom that he says will be a "radically different" approach to tackling California's homelessness crisis, passed on Wednesday evening, according to the Associated Press.

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Disability rights advocates and some mental health groups also said that the "Treatment not Tents" approach may subject people with mental health issues into to involuntary detentions.

Yeah, that's a feature, not a bug.

People have grown tired of ceding public spaces to the loonies.

#1 | Posted by censored at 2024-03-21 09:01 AM | Reply

In Florida they send the cops out to paralyze homeless people.

#2 | Posted by tres_flechas at 2024-03-21 11:40 AM | Reply

...may subject people with mental health issues into to involuntary detentions.

Just a weird sentence. If you have mental health issues, that is pretty much defined as you not being able to make good voluntary choices.

#3 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2024-03-21 01:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Oh I get it now.

Republicans are deeply concerned people with mental health issues might lose their Second Amendment rights under this new law.

#4 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-21 01:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Just a weird sentence. If you have mental health issues, that is pretty much defined as you not being able to make good voluntary choices.

#3 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST AT 2024-03-21 01:18 PM | FLAG:

There's a broad range of mental health issues. They're paving the way to going back to locking up addicts.

#5 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-03-21 02:48 PM | Reply

"They're paving the way to going back to locking up addicts."

Anything but housing, to address the homeless problem.
Though, I suppose prison is housing. Baby steps!

#6 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-21 11:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Addiction is a mental health problem, and a huge suck on tax dollars of which the addicts pay zero. Plus their being able to set up tents, or simply get high and pass out in parks and public spaces makes those tax supported resources also unavailable to the people who pay for them. Just like you wouldn't let a homeless addict pitch a tent on your front lawn, why should they be able to do so on property paid for by your tax dollars? I know I sound fairly conservative here, but I've been dealing with addicts almost every night I work for the past ten years. There are zero resources short of arrest if they're holding dope, which is also a waste off tax dollars to just warehouse the addicts. A treatment piece has always been missing, and doing so by force has not been tried. I hope it works and becomes an example for the rest of the country.

#7 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2024-03-21 11:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"Just like you wouldn't let someone else's kid play on your front lawn, why should they be able to do so on property paid for by your tax dollars?"

Am I close?

#8 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-21 11:18 PM | Reply

Lock up the addicts using in public.

Seriously, this catering to the lowest common denominator has gone on long enough. They want to get high in private, go for it, but don't make the rest of society accommodate and enable someone else's poor life decisions.

Anyone who disagrees is more than welcome to invite them into their own homes.

#9 | Posted by censored at 2024-03-21 11:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Repubicans: "California is covered in s--t, and the streets are overrun with homeless people."

Californians: "We're going to try this approach."

Repubicans: "Nothing you can do will prevent us from acknowledging reality. This will not work..."

#10 | Posted by chuffy at 2024-03-21 11:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

oops, "from DENYING reality..."

#11 | Posted by chuffy at 2024-03-21 11:44 PM | Reply

"Lock up the addicts using in public."

BRB selling all my Starbucks stock.

#12 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-21 11:48 PM | Reply

A treatment piece has always been missing, and doing so by force has not been tried. I hope it works and becomes an example for the rest of the country.

#7 | Posted by _Gunslinger

So true. A lot of drug use can be attributed to "self-medication" of people who'd be better versions of themselves if they were on anti-depressants following enough time in treatment.

#13 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2024-03-22 01:22 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Treatment has been THE missing component in the criminal justice system.

Here in Nashville, they started a drug court long ago. Individuals charged with simple possession are provided the tools to get sober and their records expunged if they stay clean and out of trouble for x number of years. It's been very effective.

#14 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2024-03-22 01:26 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

We have a drug court here, too; at best, it has about a 15% success rate, primarily for low-level early offenders who don't want to go to jail, maybe they actually have a reason to stay sober, like kids. The harder-core addicts all flunk out almost immediately; they have no interest in getting sober, and their crimes in support of their habit get more serious, more dangerous, and more likely to hurt others.

#15 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2024-03-22 03:37 AM | Reply

GUNSLINGER

What is your opinion as a law enforcement officer of legalizing drugs? As the repeal of Prohibition evidenced, crime surrounding drugs could drop to practically nothing overnight, and drug use could be monitored. At the least, it would put violent cartels responsible for so much violence on both sides of the border out of business. And law enforcement, who spend so much resources for 'the war on drugs' would be freed up to focus on other areas.

#16 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2024-03-22 04:03 AM | Reply

I have no problem with legal weed; I have always supported it. I am opposed to legalizing highly addictive drugs like fentanyl, meth, heroin, etc. I was working the road during the Oxy years, and a lot of the kids who got hooked did so because it was a prescription drug, and thus, they thought it couldn't hurt you like sticking a dirty needle in your arm. Kids thought it was a party drug. So many of them were lost forever, despite their parent's best efforts to help them. Many of them later turned to heroin when beans (street slang for Oxy) got too pricy, and if they're still alive, now smoke blues (fentanyl pills) off of foil. I'm afraid that when we legalize or even decriminalize these drugs, people see it as the government and society giving their stamp of approval. Also, the vast, vast majority of street-level crimes, car prowls, vehicle thefts, robbery, burglary, theft, mail theft, even ID theft, and organized retail theft are committed by people in support of their drug habits. The economic cost of the opioid crisis in Washington State alone has been $9.19B, according to government statistics. There has to be a better way than just throwing up our hands. As I mentioned, I hope this CA program succeeds and serves as a model for other states.

#17 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2024-03-22 05:37 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"their crimes in support of their habit get more serious"

^
There's your argument for legalization.

If you could buy your drugs with your welfare check it would reduce the harm these people caused to others.
As for harm to themselves, people mostly just want to be ltdt alone. Including people harming themselves legally with booze and double cheeseburgers. This became very clear to me when I lived in downtown San Diego where there are lots of homeless people, but I ignored them and they ignored me. And didn't try to get into my car.

#18 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-22 09:04 AM | Reply

#18 | Posted by snoofy

In the case of these drugs simply not so. You have to be a functioning person who works a job to have money to buy the drug to service your habit. That habit turns you into a useless lump who can't hold a job.

#19 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2024-03-22 09:32 AM | Reply

You have to be a functioning person who works a job to have money to buy the drug to service your habit.

I'm unaware of those drugs, which ones are you talking about. I'd say alcohol is the drug with the biggest impact on ability to work. I know a guy who did heroin for ten years, he was a line cook. Most drugs don't debilitate you. Cocaine is the #1 salesman of the year, every year.

#20 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-22 09:57 AM | Reply

You have to be a functioning person who works a job to have money to buy the drug to service your habit.
~ Galaxie ...

Not always a legitimate job, in fact the job could be crime, but you need to work for your habit. Because individuals addicted to drugs and alcohol commit around 50% of all crimes.

My guess would be the addiction gets so bad you fall into crime, after you can't keep your legitimate job.

#21 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-03-22 10:33 AM | Reply

"individuals addicted to drugs and alcohol commit around 50% of all crimes"

What percentage of crimes are to obtain drugs.

What percentage of those crimes would go away if we just have them drugs for free.

How much would it cost to give them drugs vs paying for the consequences of having them commit crimes.

^
All questions the party of fiscal responsibility won't address.

#22 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-22 10:36 AM | Reply

#20 | Posted by snoofy

You would be wrong. Alcohol certainly impacts someone and is indeed addictive - I have known full fledged alcoholics. If you are addicted to alcohol you can still function. But when comparing it to these drugs, we are not talking about weed, it is magnitudes less addictive. When you step up to opiods it is a whole different level of addiction. Meth would be another.

#23 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2024-03-22 10:46 AM | Reply

Not always a legitimate job, in fact the job could be crime, but you need to work for your habit. Because individuals addicted to drugs and alcohol commit around 50% of all crimes.

My guess would be the addiction gets so bad you fall into crime, after you can't keep your legitimate job.

#21 | Posted by oneironaut

I agree. My post was in reaction to Snoofy saying we should legalize the stuff so people could just buy it. Who was responding to Gunslinger who said what essentially what you did.

#24 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2024-03-22 10:50 AM | Reply

"My guess would be the addiction gets so bad you fall into crime, after you can't keep your legitimate job."

My guess is you don't know what you're talking about, and that's why you have to guess.

#25 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-22 10:55 AM | Reply

Meth would be another.
#23 | POSTED BY GALAXIEPETE

Meth is a lifesaver for poor people who have to work multiple jobs to make ends meet.

There are plenty of functional heroin addicts. Ever listen to music?

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-22 10:56 AM | Reply

I'd probably like to keep meth and crack from being widely available. Those are bad.

The rest of the drugs, they're less harmful than alcohol, so I can't justify prohibiting them since it pushes people to something even worse.

#27 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-22 11:02 AM | Reply

Repubicans: "This will not work..."
#10 | POSTED BY CHUFFY

Well it doesn't take a genius to figure out this is gold for the NGOs, guaranteeing homelessness/mental health will never "disappear".

The state could borrow up to $6.4 billion to build (1) more places where people could get mental health care and drug or alcohol treatment and (2) more housing for people with mental health, drug, or alcohol challenges.

This will be great for the mental health care providers, a mental health care worker in Silicon Valley charges $150hr. California already spends $9,718 per individuals served by the states mental health agencies.

In San Jose they delivered "homes" for the homeless, which had toxic mold in them, now they need fixing. Its a never ending funding of money, all to feel good but not actually fix a problem.
sanjosespotlight.com

But at least the Democrats will lock in those votes, in California (seems redundant)

Does mental health care ever actually solve anything? OR is it just feel good to talk about yourself?

Effectiveness of Talk Therapy Is Overstated, a Study Says
www.nytimes.com

Seems to me a scientific approach would be study areas/cities where there are Little to no homelessness, and implement their policies over time.

For instance in Mississippi homelessness dropped 17%.

Needs such as employment, clean clothing, hygiene items and consistent meals, state-issued identification and obtaining vital records. Those are needs most people don't think twice about. It's not a practice to simply fill beds, said Reginald Wiggins, COC's coordinated entry coordinator.

Wiggins was out at the bus stop that night, asking the homeless community whether they'd take a bed at the local hotel.

I go back to dormitories, and care like in Mississippi seems at least something that has had positive results.

#28 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-03-22 11:03 AM | Reply

#27 | Posted by snoofy

Oh come on - crack just makes you super productive.

#29 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2024-03-22 12:08 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

If crack makes you super productive why are black people so lazy!

Thank you, you're a wonderful audience, I'll be at the Stardust next Thursday.

Seriously though some people can manage their alcohol addiction and their job by keeping a pint in the desk drawer, but if that person loses their job they're probably not coming back.

When I was at the Navy we had a guy who would have a few drinks at lunch. When they moved out of Crystal City he couldn't go up the TGI Fridays and get his fix any more. It didn't cost him his job but it did make him a worse worker.

As bad as alcohol is, and it's an extremely unhealthy drug, I still would not want to ban it. If we're going to allow alcohol we might as well allow other central nervous system depressants.

By allow I mean highly regulate. Think how many lives would have been saved if heroin was clean and not laced with fentanyl.

I can't imagine how having heroin laced with fentanyl on the streets is better than regulating it. I just can't understand that, morally or economically.

#30 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-22 12:20 PM | Reply

The rest of the drugs, they're less harmful than alcohol, so I can't justify prohibiting them since it pushes people to something even worse.

#27 | Posted by snoofy

I am really curious how Alcohol is worse, it is certainly far more widely used. It's been the argument of every druggy I have know since college but none of them have ever offered anything of substance for the argument. Bottom line I have seen no evidence drugs such as opioids and Meth are less harmful and quite the opposite, if you think it is true convince me.

#31 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2024-03-22 12:49 PM | Reply

#17 | Posted by _Gunslinger

Thanks for the reply :-)

My thinking was that much in the way ending Prohibition stopped gang violence over alcohol, legalizing drugs would put the cartels out of business and end the incredible amount of violence caused by the illegal drug trade.

#32 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2024-03-22 01:18 PM | Reply

My thinking was that much in the way ending Prohibition stopped gang violence over alcohol, legalizing drugs would put the cartels out of business and end the incredible amount of violence caused by the illegal drug trade. #32 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

And then every street can look like Kensington in Philadelphia.

The druggie enablers should start legalizing in their hood stat, so the rest of us can live like civilized human beings in our own.

#33 | Posted by censored at 2024-03-22 02:10 PM | Reply

#32 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

I have to say I agree with you for SOME drugs. However I look at Marijuana. Legal production and sale results in much higher prices than street prices for it. Alcohol moonshine actually cost you more illegally from what I have seen.

But others just no, general legalization should not happen. I won't say existing addicts should not be able to get a safe supply though. And yes there are, for Opioids at least, places like methadone clinics.

#34 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2024-03-22 02:34 PM | Reply

"Legal production and sale results in much higher prices than street prices for it. "

Don't know about the cost of moonshine as I only drank it once (from a relative I trusted).

But legal cannabis i imiwabout and it is cheaper than ever. In fact it's so cheap it is driving small local marijuana farmers out of business. I can get a 1 gram vape cartridge for $25 -50. That can last me a month.

And it is checked out to be pure and mold and pesticide free and labeled as to the potency.

As for opioids I fear the worst is not yet over as we have a pain problem that we don't know how to deal with in America. I cannot tell you the solution but I can guarantee sticking our collective heads in the sand (and making getting legal pain relief difficult if not impossible) will not solve it.

#35 | Posted by donnerboy at 2024-03-22 03:09 PM | Reply

i imiwabout= I know about

Cofveve!

#36 | Posted by donnerboy at 2024-03-22 03:11 PM | Reply

"druggie enablers"

What does this mean?

Where's a place that isn't druggie enabled, Singapore? Saudi Arabia?

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-22 03:26 PM | Reply

Well it doesn't take a genius to figure out this is gold for the NGOs, guaranteeing homelessness/mental health will never "disappear".

I don't even understand what your point is here: Reagan gutted the, albeit flawed, mental health care infrastructure in California when he was Governor. This directly impacted homelessness. Instead of ignoring the problem, California has just voted to try something to fix it. It could fail...it could have unintended consequences, but it's something. Are you suggesting that by doing nothing, homelessness/mental health would "disappear" somehow? What does that even mean?

#38 | Posted by chuffy at 2024-03-22 05:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#18, fentanyl pills are cheap. About $3 each last I checked. It's just that when you're high you cannot function, and you spend every day chasing the high. Most of the addicts I arrest are on welfare, yet are still committing crimes because they are homeless and are trying to afford dope, and a hotel room and to keep their car running so it doesn't get impounded. A welfare check doesn't pay for all that. Where I work, a crappy one-bedroom apartment goes for about $2000/mo, which is more than my mortgage, no addict can afford that and dope. Most apartment complexes require clean credit, and no addict has that either. So they sleep in tents and cars and cheap hotels when they steal enough to afford it. But they always have cash for blues which is the force that runs their lives.

#39 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2024-03-22 06:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"#18, fentanyl pills are cheap"

Yeah!

Interdicting fentanyl pills is expensive.
Sending people to prison is expensive.
It's asymmetric warfare and we are on the wrong side.

This is what I am talking about on the fiscal conservative angle. Where are the fiscal conservatives, there aren't any to be found.

In the late 90s Trump said the way to undercut the cocaine cartels is through legalization and he was right. That didn't happen though because Law and Order types need to be able to blame Mexicans for bringing drugs into the country.

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-22 06:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Heroin and fentanyl, proof that humans are too smart for their own good.

#41 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2024-03-23 06:24 AM | Reply

so now mental health issues are all considered a danger to society.

#42 | Posted by ichiro at 2024-03-23 06:38 AM | Reply

iow ... maybe you don't have to go to treatment but no more tents?

What law allows them to set up tents?

So if you don't like that law, then deal with that.

Personally, I like it, the law, freedom.

#43 | Posted by ichiro at 2024-03-23 07:44 AM | Reply

When you step up to opiods it is a whole different level of addiction....
#23 | POSTED BY GALAXIEPETE AT 2024-03-22 10:46 AM | REPLY

Kinda depends on the person I've been an opioid addict for about 15 years. I make around 6 figures with no college education and MS because the opioid addiction masks the pain enough to keep me working, sometimes 60+ hours a week and always 40+.
I also carefully manage it and thus far have kept it from spiraling. In fact it's been 7 years since my last increase in dosage. Some days I will have to have an extra bump but I always counter that with a light day within the next 2 days.
Not everyone has the level of self control I do but there are a lot more of us out there than you think. I would guess 75 percent of housing in the US had at least 1 opioid addict working on it.

I cannot tell you the solution but I can guarantee sticking our collective heads in the sand (and making getting legal pain relief difficult if not impossible) will not solve it.
#35 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY AT 2024-03-22 03:09 PM | REPLY

In the 15 years since my initial script for vicodin getting refills has become increasingly a pain in the butt. I'm lucky that my doctor was treating me long before the current laws because what some folks I know have to go through to get their legit pain refills makes keeping a job pretty hard. How many bosses want an employee that will need 2-3 hours off every month to go to the pain clinic? I have a buddy who has to do that, nice thing is he works in the field like me so he doesn't tell his boss just nips off and gets it done but what about an office worker? The looks you get if people find out are pretty disheartening as well.

Every time someone politician starts talking about "stopping the opioid epidemic" I cringe thinking "what new hurdles will I have to jump". One fun one is that if they drug test you and you have anything but opioids in your system they can yoink your script so if you have a light day and decide to smoke so cannabis and use less opioids that day and they drug test you a few days later say bye bye. Our drug laws in this country are pretty jacked up and for the most part not based on reality.

Now I'm off to work for the 6th day in a row then come home and go shopping for flooring and countertops for the kitchen remodel we are doing.
Thanks Norco!

#44 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2024-03-23 08:10 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#44 | Posted by TaoWarrior

Thank you for sharing that. It was an interesting and important perspective.

#45 | Posted by censored at 2024-03-23 08:50 AM | Reply

#45

You are welcome this is an issue that I pay close attention to because it affects me pretty directly.

I just get very fed up with the opioids are bad and all addicts are living on the streets in need of rehab thought process that seems to prevail in the public mind. People would be surprised to find out how many of us functional addicts are out there living with pain daily that opioids make tolerable to continue living life.

#46 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2024-03-23 02:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#44 | Posted by TaoWarrior

A note I saw this week was taped to a cabinet door in an exam room at a doc's office: Opiate prescriptions will only be half filled at a time.

We've even had issues getting enough Tramadol for one of our dogs who needed it after an injury a couple of years ago (fully recovered in weeks). Got it, but it was a pain. I was told the DEA monitors prescriptions from vet offices too.

#47 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2024-03-24 04:55 AM | Reply

#47

That's because of the crack down on other opioids. Tramadol is barely an opioid at all it's more of a SSRI with some opioid effects. With the crack down on prescriptions though some people are trying to use it to get their fix. It's a stupid desperate move since the dosage any opioid addict would need to notice tramadol would put them at risk for seizures. Also when they stop it they will end up with double withdrawal as they would add SSRI withdrawal to opioid withdrawal. However when you are in the grip of withdrawal logical thought is not high on your list of abilities.

One thing that they have gotten better about, back about 10 years ago if you got a partial fill of an opiate prescription that counted as your whole prescription. So if I went to a pharmacy and they didn't have enough in stock to fill the whole thing I had to get by with just what they had or not fill it and go to another pharmacy. I learned that the hard way when I accepted a 10 light prescription from a pharmacy and then couldn't get the other 10. They have changed that and while it would be annoying to have to go to the pharmacy twice a month if they only did half fills it wouldn't be nearly as bad as some of the other restrictions. Especially since my pharmacy is in my grocery store so I'm there fairly often anyway.

#48 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2024-03-24 06:29 AM | Reply

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