The kid should be allowed to do whatever he wants. Impulse control is overrated. What harm can a 230 lb kid do? Theft is a social construct and a victimless crime. The store can afford it. What's so bad about a 14 year old kid vaping anyway? They should just pass out those e cigarettes at school, prevent these sorts of incidents.

His special need is ADHD and "trauma" from when he was in infant before coming into her care at 5 months old. That day, he left home with a hammer and scissors and came back with a bag full of vapes. How did he get the vapes, considering they are generally kept behind the counter? If he displayed the scissors or hammer to persuade the clerk, it would be an armed robbery, not simple shoplifting.

The officers spent 10 minutes asking him nicely to turn over the vapes and promised him if he did so they would leave and not charge him. He refused. Finally, they forcibly took it out of his hands. As soon ans they let go, he started kicking at and swinging on the officers, so they put him in handcuffs. He did a lot of screaming, but there is no allegation of any physical injury. He was restrained only.. Next, they called paramedics at the mother's request. The paramedics consulted with the mother and a ER doctor concerning his medical issues. The doctor recomended administering the ketamine.

Question, what should he officers have done differently? How long should they be expected to plead with him to give up the stolen property? How many "pretty pleases" are required? And then what? If he still refused, should they have just left and let him keep the stolen property? How will he ever learn to control his behavior if he is not held accountable?

The video linked in the article is heavily edited, showing only 2 minutes of a 50 minute interaction. The attached video shows about 4 minutes, still very incomplete.

#12 The mother told the officers he was on ADHD meds (generally stimulants) not psychotropics.
#13 No offense taken, you make good points, but also many assumptions. First, that he was experiencing a "mental health crisis", before the officers arrived. Is that your medical diagnosis? Was any part of his behavior teenaged "acting out"? Do kids with "behavioral issues" get a free pass with no expectation that they obey our laws?
Secondly, "all he needed was patience". Ok, how MUCH patience? You never answered this sincere question. Should they negotiate for an hour? Five hours? The right answer is that it depends on the circumstances. Considering there is about 8 minutes of missing video showing what led up to them putting hands on him, we don't KNOW the circumstances.
Third, that "he was hurting anyone". Again, you haven't seen the missing video from the house OR the store. The clerk said he had a weapon. (Mom says he left the house with a hammer and scissors). That's possibly armed robbery. Armed robbers seldom "hurt anyone" but it is still considered a violent crime. After they took the vape pen he came up swinging, proving that he was indeed capable of violence. I guess as long as nobody provokes him, and lets him keep the stuff he steals, there is no reason for concern, he's a "sweet kid", won't hurt anyone. Punching bag in his bedroom might be a clue that mom was trying to find ways to divert his aggression.
Fourth that the vape pen was a comfort item. The kid is ADHD, not autistic. Speaking of comfort items, why doesn't the kid have sheets, blankets or pillows on his bed? That is often a sign of neglect in a household.
Fifth Damn right, Mom should have called a health care professional, as a foster baby, he probably had an assigned team and free counselors. Clearly they have failed him, now he is a man-sized 14 year old carrying weapons and taking bags of "comfort items" from stores. (Not mentioned in this article is that he also likes to play with lighters (also stolen), so maybe that is why he has no bedding) So why did Mom call the police? Because she can't control him (physically or otherwise) and wanted a male authority figure man to scare him (I mean "inform him of the consequences") before he hurts someone, hurts himself or burns the house down. This wasn't their first interaction with this kid.

Note that *I* made some assumptions there too, just showing the flip side. I do agree with many of your points, and I would have handled things differently, depending on the additional information that was not supplied to us. The male officer didn't know how to talk to kids at all, and the female officer lost her cool. It is important to note that the officers do not have the discretion to just "let it go". If the store is not willing to let it go (unclear) they have to take enforcement action, which means seizure of the evidence and possibly arrest. (A citation can be issued in certain circumstances, but only if the subject is cooperative (which he wasn't). An officer does not have the discretion to let the accused keep the property/evidence, regardless of whether it is a keychain or a $10,000 ring, UNLESS the victim says, "Let him keep it". And of course the kid is too young to lawfully possess a vape. Me? I would have called the store back, explained the unusual circumstances and if they agreed not to file charges, I would have left it at that, and suggested that the mom return it to the store when SHE got it back from him. Something tells me she wouldn't have been happy with that result either. I dealt with moms like that all the time that expected the police to be their "enforcer". They are the same ones that point at an officer in a store and tell their kids, "See that officer over there? If you don't stop aggravating your sister she is going to put you in jail"

#10 Miranda justifies abusing a child with special needs. I find that disgusting
Miranda didn't "justify" anything. Miranda discussed context and asked questions, you consider that "justification" because you live in a binary world.

"The special needs child was incapable of surrendering the vape in that moment as he attached irrational meaning to it"
Is that your medical diagnosis based on a 2 minute video Dr. TruthHurts?

#16 I am always willing to admit my errors. I was confusing two terms, psychotropics and antipsychotics, and I think Truthhurts was too. Psychotropics cover virtually any drug that impacts mental state. so a blanket statement that they cause weight gain is incorrect. Antipsychotics, like lithium cause weight gain. ADHD meds are more likely to cause weight loss. Mom said he was on ADHD meds, not antipsychotics.

" You JUSTIFY it by implying there weren't obvious alternatives."

More proof that you have the reading comprehension of an anvil. I didn't justify it. I discussed factors naiive, pampered people like you are oblivious to, AND I explained an ALTERNATIVE way I would have handled the situation. But you are so fixated on using me as a target of your anger that you didn't ready any of that. You still refuse to answer the real world questions I asked, and have offered absolutely NO specific, practical, realistic alternative solution...then, predictably, went straight for the ad hominem attack. I'm not surer why I ever expect anything more from you. You always end up there.

#21 Good points. Officers get a certain amount of mental health training, but don't have the targeted skillset, or the time to handle situations like this in the best way possible. Easily half of police calls involve people with some sort of mental health issues, because many mental health conditions manifest in behavioral issues that cause conflict with others. Unfortunately, there is no way for a dispatcher to accurately predict in advance whether a situation will become violent. The ideal solution is to place social workers on teams with officers so they can respond together. I took part in a pilot program like that. One of the issues was that the social workers were recent college grads with education but very little real world experience. As they gained experience, they got either traumatized or jaded and moved on to safer jobs. I remember one of them saying. "OMG this is just like COPS, I thought that show was all fake."

I posted the link to provide an overview of the use of ketamine for those interested. It is a VERY commonly used drug in emergency medicine, to my understanding, specifically because it is relatively safe for cardiac patients and unknown drug users, compared to other sedatives. That may be why the doctor recommended it after being told the child had a heart condition. I'm not here to argue whether or not he needed sedation. I wasn't there and haven't seen all the video. A doctor made that decision, but not a doctor TruthHurts thinks he knows better.

As to "excited delirium", I first learned the term in the late 80's during the crack epidemic. It was used to describe a certain set of symptoms/behaviors, particularly seen in those under the influence of cocaine or amphetamines. It was part of our training specifically because of the need to get immediate emergency medical attention for someone experiencing these symptoms, particularly in conjunction with the use of restraints. We were encouraged to loosen restraints when possible, and avoid prone positioning because the combination of excited delirium with restraints and prone positioning increased the risk of positional asphixia and cardiac events. To the best of my knowledge, this phrase was commonly used within law enforcement, rescue and medical communities until very recently. I have NEVER heard an ME cite it as Cause of Death, or use it as an excuse to justify an in custody death. It is a set of symptoms for first responders to me mindful of in order to safeguard the life of the arrested person, and influenced policy changes concerning various restraint devices and techniques over the years.

The term came to National attention during the George Floyd trials, because Ofc Lane asked Chauvin "Should we roll him on his side? I just worry about excited delirium or whatever". That suggestion was consistent with LEO training and may have saved Floyd's life if Chauvin had listened to Lane. This started a dialogue about excited delirium and restraints, culminating in the above organizations advising discontinuance of the phrase. No matter what you name it and whether you classify it as a medical condition, psychiatric episode or set of behaviors, excited delirium is still a very real thing that requires awareness. Note that the article I linked was from 2019 when it was still a commonly used term. The case involving this child also happened before the phrase fell out of favor in 2021/2022.

To clarify, I have never heard an ME cite Excited Delirium as a Case of Death, but I have just learned that some have (not in my area) This is inconsistant with longstanding National Association of Medical Examiners guidelines.

"A 2020 scientific literature review looked at reported cases of excited delirium and agitated delirium. The authors noted that most published current information has indicated that excited delirium-related deaths are due to an occult pathophysiologic process. A database of cases was created which included the use of force, drug intoxication, mental illness, demographics, and survival outcome. A review of cases revealed there was no evidence to support ExDS as a cause of death in the absence of restraint. The authors found that when death occurred in an aggressively restrained individual that fits the profile of either ExDS or AgDS, restraint-related asphyxia must be considered the more likely cause of the death.[60]"

No disagreement here, as I said, we were aware of this in the late 80's.

So now they are calling it "Hyperactive Delirium with Severe Agitation and it is described as a "potentially life threatening clinical condition".

Hush little darling, grownups are talking.

Amazing. Miranda is now magically a mental health expert.

Here's a tip, dumbass. When you don't know what you're talking about, STFU.

#29 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2024-02-04 06:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nope, I'm not a mental health expert. I've made that perfectly clear. I am a subject matter expert in several areas of Law Enforcement and Death Investigations, which I'm glad to discuss. So sorry you have no expertise to share. Maybe someday you will grow up and have something worthwhile to share. Until then, work on polishing your insults. "Dumbass" is getting old.

Not sure why you waste so much time following me around, Snoofy. You already know I won't discuss anything with you, because you are a troll. Strawman is the only language you speak.

#51 Nobody thought it was cool. Link please? But apparently you think it is cool to wish death on me? Ok then.

You are the one talking about wanting to murder people. The FBI has probably already tracked down your IP address. Does your country have an extradition treaty?