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Wednesday, March 27, 2024

Martina Navratilova voiced her strong disagreement with the concept of 'tolerable unfairness' against transgender inclusion in sports.

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I posted this not because I am in total agreement with her necessarily but she is an important figure in Sports and specifically women's sports. She's been a barrier breaker and I think her voice should be heard.

#1 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-27 12:09 PM | Reply

Dinger will run with this one for a few days at least.

#2 | Posted by REDIAL at 2024-03-27 12:17 PM | Reply

Let every sport decide how to deal with it.

Nobody else has skin in the game so ---- what they think.

#3 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-27 01:34 PM | Reply

I'm forced to agree with her precisely - I have no problem with trans people just wanting to live their lives, but sports are one of the areas where physical realities just can not be overcome. Of those that are relevant, male skeletal structure and pulmonary volume are both too advantageous to discount, and even though testosterone can be blocked and there will be decline in strength and speed, any person who has gone through male puberty will ALWAYS have more myonuclei than anyone born female - at least who hasn't done some very extreme steroid cycles. Myonuclei never go away, and will always confer a greater response to strength training.

It's for this reason also that a male who has used steroids can never truly compete against purely natural athletes on a level playing field again, and I feel should be banned for life, or minimally, barred to their own league.

It's just an unfortunate fact, that does not apply to transgender men in the same way. No one cares if you're trying to compete "up," but competing "down" is always going to be perceived as unfair, and carry a risk to women athletes in the more combative sports.

#4 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2024-03-27 01:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

" Nobody else has skin in the game"

Except those who have siblings/daughters who compete in sports as well as the female athletes themselves. But typical misogynist Snoofy - Just shut up and deal with it, bitches.

#5 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-03-27 03:20 PM | Reply

Proxy skin is not skin.

#6 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-27 03:23 PM | Reply

"Nobody else has skin in the game so ---- what they think."

is that your take with gays, minorities, immigrants, well...anybody really?

Of course not.

If this were DeSantis saying this you'd just shout "homophobe, racist, anti-trans bigot!!!"

But since it's Martina Navratilova.....you're telling everyone else to STFU....because you can't attack her.

I never thought empathy towards women would get shouted down.

But here we are........

#7 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-27 03:31 PM | Reply

Hmmm, reading what she says and between the lines of what she says, I think it is a reasonable position to take, however, I think there absolutely needs to be a place for trans inclusion.

The thing is that the issue is very complicated.

There is a WORLD of difference between a trans 12-year-old playing field hockey in a municipal rec league and a trans 18-year-old competing in college weightlifting.

There is a WORLD of difference between a 16-year-old who began taking puberty blockers prior to hitting puberty and is taking female hormones currently and a 16-year-old who didn't start taking hormone therapy until after going through masculine puberty competing in high school swimming say.

Along those line I agree with Martina, to an extent. Certainly, a "man's body" may have an inherent advantage that should not be ignored for purposes of inclusion. I am not aware that any trans people believe that should be the case.

Reasonable accommodations can be made to allow inclusion based on a series of considerations: age group, competition level, sport, specifics of the individual.

And again, I am not aware of any trans group arguing that it should be any other way.

#8 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-27 03:36 PM | Reply

What's funny is you hear the opinion of anti-trans bigots like jeff, broad polls of everyone and even polls of women on the permissibility of trans athletes. I cannot find polling of trans people on the subject.

I suppose it is due to the relative rarity of the phenomenon of a trans athlete competing.

#9 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-27 03:40 PM | Reply

I wonder what Billy-Jean King thinks, you know, a figure in sports, specifically women's sports. A barrier breaker and all that

- - gasbageberly, connoisseur of lady sports

#10 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2024-03-27 03:41 PM | Reply

" I am not aware that any trans people believe that should be the case"

Lia Thomas? Unless Lia only claims to be trans but isn't actually trans. On that, I have my suspicions but can't be 100% certain given I've never even met Lia.

#11 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-03-27 03:42 PM | Reply

If this were DeSantis saying this you'd just shout "homophobe, racist, anti-trans bigot!!!"
But since it's Martina Navratilova.....you're telling everyone else to STFU....because you can't attack her.
I never thought empathy towards women would get shouted down.
But here we are........

#7 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Or...is it because DeSantis has taken things 10 steps further and that is why he is called those things?

Just an idea.

#12 | Posted by Sycophant at 2024-03-27 03:43 PM | Reply

" I am not aware that any trans people believe that should be the case"
Lia Thomas? Unless Lia only claims to be trans but isn't actually trans. On that, I have my suspicions but can't be 100% certain given I've never even met Lia.

#11 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER A

Are you claiming Lia Thomas believes that there should be no restrictions on trans athletes?

#13 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-27 03:47 PM | Reply

#13. Pretty much. At least when it benefits Lia.

#14 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-03-27 03:49 PM | Reply

Yea, another important Trans Thread!

Bet it'll have 300 posts again, lol.

#15 | Posted by Corky at 2024-03-27 03:49 PM | Reply

Let's take a moment to remember how much respect Deplorables have for Martina Navratilova:

Mon 29 May 2006
For decades, Martina Navratilova was the most vilified woman in tennis. No one could deny her talent - she simply wasn't pretty enough, slim enough, or heterosexual enough.
www.theguardian.com

#16 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-27 03:52 PM | Reply

#13. Pretty much. At least when it benefits Lia.

#14 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

I think Lia has a more inclusive perception of the issue. I don't have a problem with her taking that position. She is running into entities that seem to have given the issue some serious thought. All that is reasonable.

This though "Except those who have siblings/daughters who compete in sports as well as the female athletes themselves. But typical misogynist Snoofy - Just shut up and deal with it, bitches."

That is unreasonable.

#17 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-27 03:58 PM | Reply

I like the idea of being more nuanced on our approach to trans athlethes. It reminds me that more nuanced approaches often work best in certain situations. For example, the MeToo movements original claim of 'all women must be believed' needed to be recalibrated to 'all women should be listened to and their claims investigated.' Likewise the claim that 'anyone who opposes Bibi's war plan in Gaza is an anti-Semite' is disingenous and overrzealous in its vigilance. Martina's POV explains why it is overreaching to say all trans athletes are the same and should be treated that way.

#18 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-03-27 04:08 PM | Reply

"I like the idea of being more nuanced on our approach to trans athlethes"

Normal people don't demand an Act Of Congress every time they feel they have gotten the short end of the stick.

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-27 04:09 PM | Reply

-Or...is it because DeSantis has taken things 10 steps further and that is why he is called those things?

I don't think that's the standard.

I'll respect women and their opinion on this issue...along with Trans athletes.

#20 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-27 04:14 PM | Reply


Normal people don't demand an Act Of Congress every time they feel they have gotten the short end of the stick.
#19 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Yeah!

Who wants more members on SCOTUS!

Who wants to get rid of Electoral College!

Who wants Top 2 primary!

Who wants Rank Choice voting!

Who wants No Voter ID!

Who wants illegal immigrants to vote!

Not the normal people.

#21 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-03-27 04:25 PM | Reply

Gal,

"I like the idea of being more nuanced on our approach to trans athlethes."

How about trans athletes can compete, but they can't place?

If they come first...yea...they can say they won.

Just no awards.

#22 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2024-03-27 08:26 PM | Reply

"I like the idea of being more nuanced on our approach to trans athlethes."

That's why I say let every league self-govern. If you're competing to the point that you have Name Image and Likeness rights, this is just another business decision.

How to achieve fairness for trans people in a sex segregated world is probably not going to have a one size fits all answer.

I don't think I've heard from any current athletes on this topic. That's why I don't think it's really important.

#23 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-27 08:41 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

There are current athletes speaking up.

You're not listening.

You're likely hearing from past athletes more because they don't have anything to lose by speaking up.

I'm looking forward to this election to see where America really stands.

#24 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2024-03-27 10:20 PM | Reply

" You're likely hearing from past athletes more because they don't have anything to lose by speaking up"

Meghan Rapinoe is a perfect example. She owes her entire career to Title IX protections but the moment she retired she was happy to kick the ladder away for younger women and signal her virtue. It won't personally affect her.

#25 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-03-27 11:09 PM | Reply

I'm looking forward to this election to see where America really stands.
#24 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

I'm frightened for this country (even more) if this is the issue for a single-issue voter.

#26 | Posted by Dbt2 at 2024-03-28 03:03 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Db,

I think the issues that would drive evangelicals to Trump would likely be more morality based than environment or civil rights or perhaps even economic.

Evangelicals feel America is headed into an abyss of hedonism and self gratification.

Sodom and Gomorrah.

They worry the wrath of God is not too far away.

They believe America is being misled by the Godless and the non-believers.

Evangelicals believe Christianity is under attack by the left.

#27 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2024-03-28 05:30 AM | Reply

#27
And who better to lead the way? One who has experience in those traits?

#28 | Posted by Charliecharles at 2024-03-28 06:04 AM | Reply

"Evangelicals feel America is headed into an abyss of hedonism and self gratification."

So then why vote for Trump?

Trump is an abyss of hedonism and self gratification.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-28 10:20 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Evangelicals feel America is headed into an abyss of hedonism and self gratification.

Sodom and Gomorrah.

Evangelicals have a warped sense of reality and need to stay out of everyone else's bedrooms and sex lives. And keep their filthy religulous hands off my government.

It was the inhabitants' lack of hospitality, not their homosexuality, that gave offense to God.

The mob's demands to rape the strangers (angelic guests) revealed their deep-seated violence and inhospitality.

In contrast to the gracious hospitality given by both Abraham and Lot to those very same strangers.

If only Republicans were this concerned about the education, homeless and the lack of affordable healthcare for all Americans. Those problems would be solved.

#30 | Posted by donnerboy at 2024-03-28 11:57 AM | Reply

"I think the issues that would drive evangelicals to Trump would likely be more morality based"

Are you kidding?

These "moral" people have watched him break the majority of The Commandments, on a regular basis. He lies, he steals, he commits adultery, he covets...OMFG, does he covet!

Meanwhile, if Biden cheated on HIS wife, Republicans' heads would explode.

If nothing else, Trump supporters' complete hypocrisy shines through.

"Moral" is a smokescreen. And given the facts, a laughable one.

#31 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-03-28 12:17 PM | Reply

Trump is an abyss of hedonism and self gratification.
#29 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2024-03-28 10:20 AM | FLAG: | NEWSWORTHY 1

Wait, I thought you were against him, and here you are talking him up lol

#32 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2024-03-28 06:01 PM | Reply

Donner,

"It was the inhabitants' lack of hospitality, not their homosexuality, that gave offense to God"

I don't it was solely either.

#33 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2024-03-29 04:43 PM | Reply

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