Think it through, Murphy.

I admire your optimism!

These organizations know they can't prevent their beneficiaries from using medicine, they just don't want to be forced to pay for it

Yeah, funny thing, how when you run a health care racket, you're expected to provide health care.

The objection is government taking away choice.

Whose choice is impeded, exactly?
What has the government taken from We The People?
Is it a person's choice to purchase contraceptives?
Or is it a health insurance company's right to choose to deny medicine to a plan member?

We can do this all day.
I'll still be right.

Sopa has got to the Retort as well?

Our dear leader has kittens if I post a link to pirated material. He has been a victim of piracy himself AND has also been accused in court of copyright violation by AP, I think.

Bottom line, he has kittens.

Don't post links.

what's so special about this pic

It doesn't exist and that makes it special.

I don`t know why Rcade fascinates me right now.

RCADE created this place to pick up chicks. Maybe your inner chick is getting signals?

is there any thread I can put up pictures on

Nooner.

Since I can't post a link here (not allowed) do Google and get it.

Sopa has got to the Retort as well?

Also, what's so special about this pic of RCade's.

Tokyo Tosser lives for negative news from the US.

The full BBC-Panaroma is now available for download on torrents and magnet-links, as promised.

Since I can't post a link here (not allowed) do Google and get it.

It's called "Panaorama - Poor America" season 60, episode 5.

The full show has even better info compared to the clip you saw. That was nothing. LOL

People like our DinnerBoy and others, don't get it.

The SPEED at which America is racing downhill, is amazing.

As the BBC sez, "The number of poor under Obama, have exploded!"

Osama bin Ladin won.

last we checked only 80% of 97.6 million people in your country had flush toilets?

RCADE will never reach his full potential until he puts up a pic I give him

What's so special about it? Can we see it.

TT how is that work going on the Flush Toilets? It's been about 5,000 years

It's not spelled Ketchup, you ignorant wog.
It's Catsoup.

That isn't what the BBC said, Donkey.

The GOP used to be the party of Organization. Now they are eating their own.

#3 | Posted by thecommentator

So a high speed train is a UN plot? You know how much work would be created from building the train, how much oil will be saved by commuters using the train rather than planes, busses, and cars.

Change your diapers you old fossils.
#5 | Posted by ClownShack

Obama/Biden's Ohio high speed rail was laughed out of existence here ..

Ok, you are retarded. What part about "a lower % of their GDP, covering a higher % of their populace, and with better results" escaped you? All of it???

Better results?

Yep! It's Utopia! lower costs, better coverage AND better results?!?

It's UTOPIA!

-Danforth

funny how Americas poor also have big screens, cell phones, cars, 18 kids on welfare and weigh 350.

What a ruff life they have, poor things

The GOP doesn't want the White House yet. They didn't want it four years ago (we broke it, you fix it), and they must think that the economy, etc. will continue to be too rocky, no matter who is in the WH, so they are just making a lot of noise and futzing around.

The GOP used to be the party of Organization. Now they are eating their own.

I'm done with this; you're either drunk, stupid, or both

All of the above!

Too rich, coming from the guy who make the claim about homicides and traffic fatalities, and then told me to prove his claim.

They were provided within the last month. google it if you don't believe me - as you clearly don't.

Unless of course, you're the one being aborted

Not a valid comparison, seeing how we routinely pull the plug on human "beings" with more functionality than a fetus

in which case it would be more like being thrown into a wood chipper

The difference between Fargo and an abortion hinges on the fact that a lump of genetically human tissue is not by default a person - it lacks all qualities that define humanity. Unless you want to play the part of the superstitious moron and start yammering about spirits and souls...

And you "conservatives" want to get rid of that too. Try again.

It's funny to me that leftists abhor ANY religious-group clinging to tax-exempt status but, at the sams time, find ZERO opposition to PP being tax-exempt - hell, PP receives taxpayer monies to fund abortion.

"I have recently provided the citations that back up my assertions."

On this thread? Where?

"I am not going to jump every time you create some imaginary hoop to hurdle. "

Too rich, coming from the guy who make the claim about homicides and traffic fatalities, and then told me to prove his claim.

I'm done with this; you're either drunk, stupid, or both.

It's a sign from above... that people have better things to do on a sunday morning!

correct that the militia ARE the people, however for point of clarity ..

In DC v. Heller;
The court held that the second amendment recognized an individual right to possess and carry a firearm .. straight-up & "unconnected with militia service."

"The onus of proof is on YOU, Danforth."

Are you retarded? You're the one who claimed traffic fatalities and homicides skew the numbers. That would put the burden of proof squarely in your corner. I posted several measurable barometers where the US falls behind; so much for your bogus claim of being all "eyes".

"Prove it - Let's break it down - mandated coverage, mandated costs, mandated compensation for services rendered....the BEST results imaginable AND at a fraction of true cost???"

Ok, you are retarded. What part about "a lower % of their GDP, covering a higher % of their populace, and with better results" escaped you? All of it???

PP gives it out for free. They give out free condums and free BC pills.

And you "conservatives" want to get rid of that too. Try again.

There are insurance plans with small co pays. Wall Mart, CVS, Walgreens and Target give the BC pills for $4.00 a month.

Link? One that describes eligibility and availability please.

Then there is the free method--no screwing--that's 100% no pregnancy would occur.

Right. Yours is a bitter, unhappy life so everyone else's must be too.

Sad thing is is abstinence being the only 100% guarantee is obvious. Too bad it isn't reality though. Try living in reality before you comment on it.

But even if the stuff were free--there will be women who are so irresponsible--they don't care!!

Which is exactly why we should make sex education about kittens and beams of sunshine and God.

It's mind boggling how conservatives can be so wrong all the time and yet be so convinced they're correct.

Danforth,

I have recently provided the citations that back up my assertions.

Sorry - I am not going to "jump" every time you create some imaginary hoop to hurdle.

Demanding "link" when it has been recently-provided is just lazy.

Makes you think...

Makes me think you don't know jack shit about biology, but like to pretend otherwise.

The onus of proof is on YOU, Danforth.

You are the one making pixie-dust claims that nationalized health-care is Utopia excepting the sickest of the sick.

Prove it - Let's break it down - mandated coverage, mandated costs, mandated compensation for services rendered....the BEST results imaginable AND at a fraction of true cost???

"What would be illuminating would be for you to provide a cause/effect relationship between traffic-fatalitites and homocides with a single-pay system."

Since you're so interested, knock yourself out. As it is, you're barfing stuff just to force others to do make-work.

"Unless you can articulate HOW homicide is realated to quality of health-care"

Sorry dude, your issue, not mine. If you want to make that argument, get some hard numbers to prove your point.

"Just don't sit there and pretend that a government monopoly is SO fucking benevalent that it not only provides "better measured results" but does so at a huge discount. "

Fine. Be an ostrich. Just do your own research, and don't ignore the truth when you find the answers. So far, all you've got is your unsourced opinion.

Gee, how about if I just cite life expectancy and ignore American death rates, would that help you narrow those goalposts?

What would be illuminating would be for you to provide a cause/effect relationship between traffic-fatalitites and homocides with a single-pay system.

I am not narrowing the goalposts - you are. Unless you can articulate HOW homicide is realated to quality of health-care then you are pissing into the wind.

The "militia" is the people.

The citizenry.

Dumbass.

:"When you can tie homocide rates and traffic-fatality rates to the overall quality of a healthcare system."

Why bother? You can't; it's just a monkey wrench to deflect away from facts you don't want to face.

"No nation on this planet matches or exceeds our response-time or our quality-of-care when it matters most."

Prove it.

gotta say .. I had ya pegged as a "wannabe lounge singer"

Oh, he's very good.

Did you ever run into a musical group that works out of Kansas City and calls themselves "Four Jacks and a Jill"?

They've been at a Ramada Inn there for about 18 months.

If you're ever in Kansas City and want to hear some good music, you might want to drop by.

Breyer was right. There's nothing in the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution that specifically grants a homeowner the right to bear arms unless he/she is a member of a well regulated militia.

"The cost-increase trajectory exceeds any semblance of taxing our way out of the problem."

Then it should be attacked from multiple directions. As it is, you're accepting the problems as they are and resigning yourself.

"Financial dis-incentives? Are you serious?"

Of course. If you've put $1500 into your HSA, you get to roll it over into a Medical IRA at retirement. There's a financial incentive to skip going to the doctor to save money.

"It's very easy to rubber-stamp a high-priced exam or procedure (or a fricking IUD, for that matter) when a 3rd party is paying the bill."

It's even easier to lose sight of the fact prevention is MUCH cheaper than cure.

"(HSAs) do FAR more toward curbing costs"

They've been in existence for over a decade, a time span where medical costs outpaced inflation 4-to-1 . Where's your proof HSAs have curbed costs?

"while simultaneously providing superior-care in a manner that single-pay can only have nocturnal-emissions about in terms of 'measurable outcome'."

Well now you're just desperately making shit up. The single payer programs use a lower % of GDP, and produce measurably better results. HSAs are meaningless to anyone who doesn't have one. while universal coverage helps everyone. Anything else is merely a hollow claim borne of ignorance.

Gee, how about if I just cite life expectancy and ignore American death rates, would that help you narrow those goalposts?

When you can tie homocide rates and traffic-fatality rates to the overall quality of a healthcare system...feel free.

You are suggesting Utopia.

The UK's system is a nightmare.

Canada's isn't much better.

No nation on this planet matches or exceeds our response-time or our quality-of-care when it matters most.

Now, before you go all apeshit, this reality does NOT mean that we should ignore cost-saving measures.

Fine.

Just don't sit there and pretend that a government monopoly is SO fucking benevalent that it not only provides "better measured results" but does so at a huge discount.

If you want to argue tradeoffs...fine.

That is a principled argument.

But this Utopianism that you are spouting is ridiculous.

How did you "clean that up"?

I've sometimes pasted shit that ends up having those very same weird symbols but I don't know what causes it.
#5 | Posted by JeffJ

Then the premiums aren't enough, are they? And speaking of Medicare premiums, how much have Medicare costs gone up in the last decade? Now how much have Medicare taxes gone up the last decade?

The cost-increase trajectory exceeds any semblance of taxing our way out of the problem. You act as if the availability of taxable income is limitless AND that increasing taxes on productivity not only doesn't have an adverse reaction but that it actually encourages producers to expend even more capital investment.

But then you're back to financial disincentives to staying in good health.

Financial dis-incentives?

Are you serious?

It's very easy to rubber-stamp a high-priced exam or procedure (or a fricking IUD, for that matter) when a 3rd party is paying the bill. But, make health-transactions first-party and, all of a sudden, the consumer begins to question and challenge the necessity of such measures AND they make personal decisions on their own (the horror!).

HSA's are not unicorns and they certainly don't create Utopia - but they do FAR more toward curbing costs while simultaneously providing superior-care in a manner that single-pay can only have nocturnal-emissions about in terms of 'measurable outcome'.

Point to a Breyer vote on the SC that messed with 2nd Amendment rights in the U.S.
BTW, I get a chuckle out of your lounger singer comments.
#9 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

~ anyway, I see Jak has already noted Heller ..

Breyer also voted against the majority in McDonald v. Chicago in 2010, also a 5-4 decision
~ In Heller, the Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment granted Americans right to possess a handgun in the home for self-defense ..
in McDonald, the Court applied (or "incorporated") that right to the states.
Breyer denied that the US Constitution granted Americans the right to armed self-defense in his dissenting opinions

~ ~ Breyer also made a laughingstock of himself back in 1999 by citing the Supreme Court of Zimbabwe -- in two death penalty cases, Moore v. Nebraska and Knight v. Florida

France also demonstrates that you can deliver stellar results with this mix of public and private financing. In a recent World Health Organization health-care ranking, France came in first, while the U.S. scored 37th, slightly better than Cuba and one notch above Slovenia. France's infant death rate is 3.9 per 1,000 live births, compared with 7 in the U.S., and average life expectancy is 79.4 years, two years more than in the U.S. The country has far more hospital beds and doctors per capita than America, and far lower rates of death from diabetes and heart disease. The difference in deaths from respiratory disease, an often preventable form of mortality, is particularly striking: 31.2 per 100,000 people in France, vs. 61.5 per 100,000 in the U.S. That's not to say the French have solved all health-care riddles. Like every other nation, France is wrestling with runaway health-care inflation. That has led to some hefty tax hikes, and France is now considering U.S.-style health-maintenance organization tactics to rein in costs. Still, some 65% of French citizens express satisfaction with their system, compared with 40% of U.S. residents. And France spends just 10.7% of its gross domestic product on health care, while the U.S. lays out 16%, more than any other nation.

"if you cite life expectancy and ignore homocides and traffic fatalities"

Gee, how about if I just cite life expectancy and ignore American death rates, would that help you narrow those goalposts?

"what are these "measurably better results"?"

PPS - I am not trying to play 'gotcha'.

If you can provide evidence of these superior measured results then I am all-ears - or EYES as it would be in blogosphere.

Other countries spend a lower % of their GDP, cover a higher % of their populace

Yes and yes. To a point on the latter - No doubt you recognize that millions either qualify for state-assistance or can afford insurance but choose not to.

and produce measurably better results.

You've already acknowledged that advanced-care (cancer, etc) is unmatched when compared with the US, so I won't rehash that.

However, what are these "measurably better results"?

PS - if you cite life expectancy and ignore homocides and traffic fatalities then you deserve a good lashing from one of BBob's car antenas.

Point to a Breyer vote on the SC that messed with 2nd Amendment rights in the U.S.

Oops!

"there simply is no untouchable constitutional right guaranteed by the Second Amendment to keep loaded handguns in the house in crime-ridden urban areas."

~ Breyer

Dissenting opinion

District of Columbia v. Heller

"A legalized monopoly (government-run) breeds inefficiency as well as degrades the quality of care."

Gee, you'd be right, except for all the evidence around the world that you're wrong.

"In Michigan EVERY SINGLE Medicare/Aid patient is serviced at a loss."

Then the premiums aren't enough, are they? And speaking of Medicare premiums, how much have Medicare costs gone up in the last decade? Now how much have Medicare taxes gone up the last decade?

Any wonder why there's a funding gap?

"The HSA-model would do FAR more to drive costs down than any forced-monopoly could possibly realize."

But then you're back to financial disincentives to staying in good health.

Lettuce,

How did you "clean that up"?

I've sometimes pasted shit that ends up having those very same weird symbols but I don't know what causes it.

Point to a Breyer vote on the SC that messed with 2nd Amendment rights in the U.S.

It's the mentality, dumbass.

"You lost me"

Other countries spend a lower % of their GDP, cover a higher % of their populace, and produce measurably better results. We pay the most by far, and our average results show we're getting relatively shitty value for the money. The government is already on the hook for 40% of the insured, with that number only slated to rise as the boomers move through retirement. We either need to learn lessons from others, or watch as health care becomes the purview of the executives and the rich.

I wonder how the ignorant rigger feels about "$2 a gallon gas"....

If you are angling toward single-pay I would argue that you are horribly misguided.

A legalized monopoly (government-run) breeds inefficiency as well as degrades the quality of care. In Michigan EVERY SINGLE Medicare/Aid patient is serviced at a loss. Public providers, like UofM ONLY survive by the profit margins generated from private insurance more than off-setting the losses of government-mandated reimbursement rates.

The HSA-model would do FAR more to drive costs down than any forced-monopoly could possibly realize.

-sorry, had to clean that one up a bit.

"This is one of the great tragedies of the Bush administration. The more successful they've been at intercepting and stopping bad guys, the less proof there is that we're in danger... It's almost like they should every once in a while have allowed an attack to get through just to remind us.

~Newt Gingrich, at a book talk in Huntington, NY, April 2008

“This is one of the great tragedies of the Bush administration. The more successful they’ve been at intercepting and stopping bad guys, the less proof there is that we’re in danger…. It’s almost like they should every once in a while have allowed an attack to get through just to remind us.”
~Newt Gingrich, at a book talk in Huntington, NY, April 2008

Maybe we should address reality and cut out the middlemen.

#111 | Posted by Danforth

You lost me, Swish. :-)

RiR,

The Senate hasn't passed a budget in over 1000 days and Obama's lackey (Chew or Lew - I can never remember his name) actually blamed the GOP on Meet the Press.

It was absurd on multiple levels and of course Gregory didn't really push the issue that hard.

Hell, Obama's last budget was voted down 97-0 in the senate. 3 of his 4 budgets were submitted after the legal deadline since coming into office.

The "neo-cons" were terrible, but this quintuples down on their irresponsibility almost to the point of criminality.

"Those 2 programs are driving us right over a cliff unless they are structurally changed."

Maybe we should address reality and cut out the middlemen.

BrokeJak

Point to a Breyer vote on the SC that messed with 2nd Amendment rights in the U.S.

BTW, I get a chuckle out of your lounger singer comments.

"The problem is that even right now COLA has been denied"

Only because inflation all but vanished momentarily. It's been reinstated at 3.6% for 2012.

The first talk of entitlement was when we finally saw the SS surpluses were going the way of the dodo. Even now it's only viewed as money going out, and everyone ignores the constant stream of payroll taxes coming in to offset most of the outflow.

Roughly 70% of what's been promised when the Boomers hit their retirement stride and drain the influx of cash.

The problem is that even right now COLA has been denied AND, according to SS proponents, old fogies get such a small stipend that they have to choose between purchasing staples or dog food; but not both.

Regardless, the SS trajectory is bad, but it pales when compared with Medicare/Aid. Those 2 programs are driving us right over a cliff unless they are structurally changed.

Did Skrillex win anything?
#42 | Posted by RexZeitgeist at 2012-02-12 10:36 PM

Well, "President" Obama had to know his "budget" was dead on arrival. So I would imagine that the tough choices referred to in the article, was whether or not to go with Helvetica font, or the Times New Roman.

Then I have another client that is worth $60 million and takes every penny. I can tell you he is definitely Republiturd. A birfer too.

#17 | Posted by 726

Is he the guy pulling down 15% in munis?

"There's been talk of "entitlement" for a long time now"

Horseshit. The first talk of entitlement was when we finally saw the SS surpluses were going the way of the dodo. Even now it's only viewed as money going out, and everyone ignores the constant stream of payroll taxes coming in to offset most of the outflow.

"At the time, it could no longer be taken away"

Have you got any proof for that?

I've section hiked nearly 400mi of the Appalachian Trail and I've completed the Palmetto Trail in sections. The coldest I've ever camped was near Mount Rogers near the Grayson Highlands in January. I think it got down to the minus 20's.
#25 | Posted by Axiom

Appalachians are foothills and Its trails are a walk in the park.

"they exist to further the non-profit mission of the church."

No, that's what they're hiding behind. Big difference.

= its highly hypocritical to attack someone for doing the exact samething you're doing.

'Twere that the case, it would be hypocritical, but as it is not, it is, apparently, only over your head.

You aren't even correct on Rom 1.

"Romans And Shrine Prostitution

Romans and shrine prostitution is precisely what Paul addressed in Romans 1. The ancient custom of shrine prostitution, prevalent in first century Rome, forms the historical motif of the first chapter of Romans. Ancient shrine prostitution is the most historically accurate explanation of Pauls words in Romans chapter 1."

Any time Mitt opens his entitled yap he gets wounded.

Just cause you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

What happens? If your ilk is in charge, the same thing that always happens. The wealthy will be given a huge unpaid for tax cut.... and maybe even a cool new huge unpaid for war, loaned us by said Chinese.

It'll be deja vu all over again.

Tantra is still the most definitive book on sex - even though it is 1000s of years old.

"may have led to the evolution of stripes on zebras, according to a new study in the Journal of Experimental Biology"
They realy need to explain how that happens. How come it only happens to the zebra? Why didn't it happen to negros?
#4 | Posted by Sniper at 2012-02-13 12:06 PM

This blatant racist shit has no place here.

Change your spots or shed your skin cretin bred.

It's "Groundhog Day".

Better people have no health insurance and die and decrease the population, eh Murph?

Hope Willard has RomneyCar....er, health care.

I don't think that's the point, Lounge Singer.

WTF is going on!

Obama doesn't like school vouchers.

What's the 2nd Amendment in the West Indian Constitution?

It's not spelled Ketchup, you ignorant wog.
It's Catsoup.

And....

"What makes you an expert on Glasshouse's personal life, that's MY business, you thilly"

#32 | POSTED BY PATRON

The "Truth Team" will actually be the "Deny and Deceive History Rewriting Team", telling people that what they have seen with their Own Lyin' Eyes during the last 4 years of the Obama Reign "just wasn't the reality".

Things "Really Are Better than they seem", they will tell us. After all, Washington DC and the surrounding area is filled with Crony insiders, highly compensated bureaucrats and elected officials who haven't felt any pinch. That whole DC area has had a Growth in employment -- Government employees, that is -- at our expense.

The other end of the spectrum in D.C. is 50% unemployment amoung Black Youth ages 18-25. But Let's just Not talk about That Uncomfortable Truth.

IOW, there would be no talk of "entitlement" if the money had been given to Trustees instead of politicians. There was also no talk of "entitlement" when payroll taxes were a cash cow, either.

#102 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2012-02-14 12:06 AM

So make a promise without understanding the situation? That's a great leader.

There's been talk of "entitlement" for a long time now but most people were busy working instead of protesting. My father can tell you when entitlement started. It started at the time welfare no longer required people to work to receive it. At the time, it could no longer be taken away and it became an "entitlement".

Don't worry Obama plans on giving out bicycles and roller skates to replace the cars that won't run cos we have no gas. Its what he calls renewable energy. President flop ears strikes again.

Don't be suprised when OWS starts doing the same.

#22 | Posted by American1st

It's going to be a long, hot, summer. Watch for the RNC and DNC conventions to be riots too by the OWS crowds.

Corky is smoking dried turds again. If Obama wins reelection the nation debt will rise to 22 trillion dollars or more by the time his second term is over. That means roughly 1/4 of all government tax receipts will go to pay interest on that debt. its unsustainable. No Obama is on course to completely destroy this country and democrats are cheering him all the way.

What happens when interest rates go up to the cost to borrow from our chinese masters?

Hopefully he'll learn not to shit all over the second amendment after this.

^^^

This.

And candy-flavored rohypnol.

Be Well.

I have a Linn Lingo with a Naim ARO arm mounting a Transfiguration with Van den Hul stylus feeding a BAT tube preamp, Levinson switch, BAT kilowatt and Sonus Faber Amati's.

High end vinyl is quite worthwhile.

#87 | Posted by Zatoichi

Not sure what that is--but I want it! lol

I say lets raise the minimum wage for ordinary workers and then pay that amount to members of congress and the president! A win win for all.

The Greeks problem is that it involves the Greeks.

They ran out of other people's money and they over charged the credit card.

They need to cut 15,000 jobs--UE is already 20% in Greece.

They can't turn the clock back on the peopl ewho retired at 52 or 54. They can fix it for the future.

But there are no jobs.

It's a vicious circle.

Greece will likely have to go BK--how are they supposed to get within their means and pay back the loans?

They can't.

----------

And then Danni--poor Danni--she wants to use other people's money to go invest in Greece which is burning to the ground as we post.

The hoardes have taken over the country and it's very ugly.

or his car antenna

Perhaps this will distill the justice's interpretation of the Second Amendment.

Try that shit in my house and the coroner will be hauling your carcass off.

Shouldn't Supremes get protection? -
considering others which do and
history of incidents.

...and no one was hurt

Yet. Would not want to be guy in hands of
Marshals and Court Police down there.

Who "forced" Lehman? And how could they force Lehman and not others?

#84 | Posted by Danforth

Greed--stupidity--like you pointed out and little help from Goldman Sachs.

And then I read Nutcase's post #100 and they are at it again.

Government is ordering health insurance plan to insure health services.
If there were a health objection, that would be one thing.
But there isn't.

The objection is government taking away choice. An employer chooses which health plans its going to make avaialable to its employees and it's none of the federal government's God damn business what is covered in said plans.

No, you are not.
You have no problem whatsoever when an employer or a church coerces a health care decision.

They are not coercing a health care decision. They are simply deciding for themselves which insurance policies they will pay for. You seem to lack a fundamental understaning of the definition of the word "coersion".

It's only when the government stands up for a woman's right to access modern health care that would be denied her based on religious superstition that you cry "coercion!"

The care isn't "denied"! Nor is access to the "care" (sic). These organizations know they can't prevent their beneficiaries from using contraception, they just don't want to be forced to pay for it.

Maybe a good way to judge which is preferable is to look at how many people are being coerced. On the one hand, you have potentially millions of women losing access to contraception.

Let me get this straight. Up until now, this mandate didn't exist. But now that it does exist and it ends up being rescinded millions of women not only will be denied insurance coverage for contraception but they'll be denied access altogher. Employers all over the place are all of a sudden going to drop the plans that they currently offer that cover these things simply because they want to exert control over a woman's body?

That's your argument???

Yes, you are. You are telling me that a man who was there must be wrong because it doesn't fit the views for which you've been able to find support on the Internet. Not every fact is on the Internet, Murphy. If someone said something counter to what I think about Obama, would you not share it as a point of discussion? Would you not offer it even if you couldn't "prove" it? I bet you would. How many assertions do you believe about Obama that can't be proved? Do you buy it that he's not a Christian because he's not been photographed in church, or not often? Do you assert that Bush was 'cause he was so photographed a few times and 'cause he talked the talk?

It seems to me that you keep assuming this guy lied because you don't like what he said, and it so happens that you then found lots of evidence asserting that Bush did thus and such and believed thus and such regarding abortion. Your initial response was "I don't believe it, so it must not be true"; you went to facts after. I don't deny the evidence you offer; show me where I did. But you do know what nuance means, right? You do know that there are different visions of what abortion is, right? You do know that a president could sign a ban on late-term/partial-birth abortions as president and yet support abortions being safe, legal, and rare (not what he said, but it sure could be) when he was governor of a state years before, right? Or that he could have said so in a debate in order to score points over his more liberal opponent? Think it through, Murphy. I grant you your evidence. Why can't you accept that maybe, just maybe, someone who was there when you weren't isn't lying but is reporting something that actually happened?

But never mind, you're never going to accept this possibility. As I said, it's not worth arguing. You won't even accept a remote possibility without proof. I'm going to bed. Enjoy your certitude; it has gotten you this far.

He may have shaved it and put on blackface in an attempt to get rcades attention, Bruce.

Hehehe good one there, A1, but no cigar.

Government is ordering people to DO something they don't want to do.

Government is ordering health insurance plan to insure health services.
If there were a health objection, that would be one thing.
But there isn't.

If female contraceptive services weren't considered part of health care, you might have an argument.

But when you're running a health care company, you have to deliver health care.

Beyond that, the government orders lots of people to do things they don't want to do.
Such as pay taxes, and serve on juries, and pay child support, and register with the Selective Service.

I am cheering for the absence of coersion
No, you are not.
You have no problem whatsoever when an employer or a church coerces a health care decision.
It's only when the government stands up for a woman's right to access modern health care that would be denied her based on religious superstition that you cry "coercion!"

But in truth, it's always a trade-off. So let's say both ways are coercion. Maybe a good way to judge which is preferable is to look at how many people are being coerced. On the one hand, you have potentially millions of women losing access to contraception. On the other hand, you have a handful of corporate fictitious persons being told they are required to process certain billing codes used elsewhere in the industry.

I can tell which of those scenarios coerces more people. Can you?

"They have a state Healthcare system that is centrally controlled and an unmitigated disaster. They've done everything the way that the libtards on this board advocate day after day."

Can you taste the stupid when shit like that comes out?

Greece is a model of corruption, if nothing else. It's common knowledge everyone bribes to get service.

"Greece is a fucking liberal utopia in the exact form that Danfuck, Donnerhead and Danni advocate for us in the USA. "

Ah, that tried-and-true debating tactic: lie.