Rust Armourer Guilty of Cinematographer's Death

Michael Martin Murphey - Wildfire (1975)
www.youtube.com

Lyrics excerpt...

...
She comes down from Yellow Mountain
On a dark, flat land she rides
On a pony she named Wildfire
With a whirlwind by her side
On a cold Nebraska night

[Interlude]

[Verse 2]
Oh, they say she died one winter
When there came a killing frost
And the pony she named Wildfire
Busted down his stall
In a blizzard, she was lost

[Chorus]
She ran calling Wildfire
Calling Wildfire
Calling Wildfire

[Verse 3]
So by the dark of the moon, I planted
But there came an early snow
Been a hoot-owl howling outside my window now
'Bout six nights in a row
She's coming for me, I know
And on Wildfire we're both gonna go
...

Hollywood can resolve this problem

Hollywood is not a monolithic entity. Opinions will vary.

@#21 ... Hollywood is not a monolithic entity. Opinions will vary. ...

Except when it comes to the Oscars. ...

But to your point, is this a time when [gasp] government has to step in an provide standards?

is this a time when [gasp] government has to step in an provide standards?

I doubt they will bother. They don't care about thousands of ordinary folk being killed by guns, why would they care about this?

I can think of maybe 3 or 4 accidental shooting fatalities on movie sets out of how many millions of movie rounds fired?

@#23 ... I doubt they will bother. ...

I do not disagree.

So it appears to be up to Hollywood to solve this problem.

And I doubt they will, unless and until a major actor, one who makes tons of money for Hollywood, is killed.

Minor actors seem to be disposable to Hollywood.

What stupidly? Really, what stupidity?
The problem is the process.

#13 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER AT 2024-03-06 10:03 PM | FLAG:

You mean.. the protocol might be flawed?

How dare you! It's so much safer than the streets!

lol.

And I doubt they will, unless and until a major actor, one who makes tons of money for Hollywood, is killed.

That will more likely happen when one of the producers is convicted. Safety in general on the Rust set was shoddy to say the least but none of the prosecutors seemed too interested in that aspect other than background noise.

Baldwin was one of the producers but he has only been charged because he was the one holding the gun, not because of how the set was managed.

" It's so much safer than the streets!"

It is. Guns and explosives are used daily across the world in filmmaking. Notice how this one shooting garnered so much headlines? Partially it's because it's so rare.

Fact is, protocols on set are much more strict than protocols in real life. The problem here was the protocols weren't followed.

But excellent self-own!

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#23 | Posted by REDIAL at 2024-03-06 11:49 PM | Reply
They don't care about thousands of ordinary folk being killed by guns, why would they care about this?
I can think of maybe 3 or 4 accidental shooting fatalities on movie sets out of how many millions of movie rounds fired?

They care even less about hundreds of thousands of ordinary folk being killed or ruined by street drugs - opioids or not - in fact more and more governments (e.g., Oregon, California, Colorado etc.) seem to actively encourage it.

And particularly in "entertainment" industry, I can think of dozens of "accidental" ODs... yet see them regularly making light of the casual "practice" while often bragging of personal use (especially where [still?] illegal) and dismissing the [obvious and well known] effects and consequences and cheering on legalization / decriminalization of even strongest hallucinogenic and addictive drugs... then calling on "the government" (i.e., taxpayers) to provide more money and services for "prevention," fighting addiction, mental illness, homelessness, rising crime rates and/or suicides, and other societal ills caused by increased drug use as well as usually corresponding reduction in law enforcement.
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It is.

#27 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2024-03-07 09:59 AM | FLAG:

But you're not in the streets. It's the definition of a closed environment, and over from this armchair the protocols are subject to producer/actor pressure and could be better despite that problem.

but here's a whole thread of people calling the protocols crap, you don't have to quote me who is obviously trolling you for fun.

but if you feel the need to play with guns, maybe drop me a message first so you don't kill somebody. Non-functional ammo is extremely easy to make on site, there is zero reason to order it from a manufacturer then randomly sample batches, that's insanity.

Didn't they notice THE BULLETS???

FFS. People are idiots.

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... is this a time when [gasp] government has to step in an provide standards?

Government can provide all the standards it wants, in fact, pretty sure there are many federal and states' governments standards for the movie / filming sets, including those insisted on by AFTRA-SGA and OSHA... but you are still dealing with "human factor" and mistakes. Considering how rare these accidents are already... how many more / better "standards" can be made that are immune to human error?

... what has Hollywood said they will be doing to address that issue?

"That issue" being a human error - especially in this case possibly as a result of being "under the influence" - maybe the best way to "address" it is eliminating / automating out humans from the "process" of testing the ammo? How would labor unions look at that solution?
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"How would labor unions look at that solution?"

This was a non-union crew, so...
They'd probably say hire union labor if you don't want anyone killed on set.
I'm surprised how little has been made of the union side of all this.
Like, ---- that Alec Baldwin piece of ---- for working with scabs.

I doubt they will, unless and until a major actor, one who makes tons of money for Hollywood, is killed.

He never achieved the greatness of his father, but Brandon Lee died from getting shot by a prop gun.

Honestly "the crow" is the best comic book movie ever made.

Ya know, bullets and blanks look different.

" But you're not in the streets. It's the definition of a closed environment"

Sounds like a safer milieu.

Thanks for proving my point.

" you feel the need to play with guns, maybe drop me a message first so you don't kill somebody. Non-functional ammo is extremely easy to make on site, there is zero reason to order it from a manufacturer then randomly sample batches, that's insanity."

Sounds like someone didn't "follow the protocol". Multiple people, in fact. Including two who have already either pleaded guilty or been found guilty.

She's hot, Alice ballswine should be charged with murder,
Let her go.

Ya know, bullets and blanks look different.
#36 | POSTED BY LEE_THE_AGENT

Idk know how much different they are.

But after the incident she went through the pallet and found 5 live rounds in the pallet of dummies.

Only because they rattled or didn't, don't remember, visually they used same jacket as they were from the same manufacturer.

Sounds like a safer milieu.

#37 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2024-03-07 05:48 PM | FLAG:

When you kill more people than my local gun range, it doesn't. Way more shots there, but no deaths.

Ya know, bullets and blanks look different.

They were not using blanks. They were using dummies, which are supposed look like live rounds.

"When you kill more people than my local gun range, it doesn't."

Now do ALL the gun ranges. Here's a Houston law firm that specializes in it:
www.injurylawyerhouston.com

"Way more shots there"

Not compared to worldwide guns and explosives used in the movie industry.

They were using dummies, which are supposed look like live rounds.
#42 | POSTED BY REDIAL

Let's say she was really diligent and conscientious.

How would she determine dummy round from live??

Weight? SnapCap?

Some dummies have florescent projectiles. But for the film I imagine they wanted identical to live but dumb.

So how would she determine in a practical way?

I don't have any idea, seems to me they are accusing her of not doing whatever that is.

How would she determine dummy round from live??

Some dummies had holes drilled in the sides of the casings, some had BBs inside that rattled when you shook them. Others had dimpled primers that had been fired.

I haven't seen the recent court footage, but there is lots of misinfo in the thread above (ironaut) She didn't buy the ammo from a manufacturer. The "manufacturer" (Starline) stamped on the brass casing makes only the brass casing. Starline casings are commonly used by reloaders for live ammo, which apparently Hannah did not know, she thought Starline made movie prop ammo, which they don't.

Somebody else (not Starline) assembled the rounds, adding the primers, gunpowder and bullets. Dummy rounds, by definition, do not have a "projectile, or a primer or gunpowder. Sometimes dummy rounds rattle, because the maker puts a ball bearing in the empty space so they will rattle, for identification. Sometimes they drill a hole in the shell casing, also for identification.

Blanks have a primer and gunpowder, held in by a cap or wadding, but no bullet The idea is to make noise. They aren't designed to deliver a projectile, but are still dangerous at close range

Redial is correct, sorry, I hadn't read your post before I typed mine.

The dimpled primer is because they often reuse a casing from a round that has already fired its projectile. I wouldn't trust that as an identification method, because sometimes a malfunctioning gun or defective/improperly loaded round will fail to fire, even though the firing pin strikes the primer. The gunman ejects the round, and it is still potentially live.

She didn't buy the ammo from a manufacturer. The "manufacturer" (Starline) stamped on the brass casing makes only the brass casing. Starline casings are commonly used by reloaders for live ammo, which apparently Hannah did not know, she thought Starline made movie prop ammo, which they don't.

Well from what I read in the evidence, perhaps replacing the "manufacture" with "a reloader". Regardless, she didn't do the reloading, she purchased it.

Dummy rounds, by definition, do not have a "projectile, or a primer or gunpowder.

This isn't what I have seen. I have seen them with the "projectile", "casing" but no gunpowder.

Set of three 7mm Winchester Short Magnum (7mm WSM) dummy rounds / snap caps / fake bullets ("projectile" might not be same material, but looks the same").
fakebullets.com

The idea I could imagine is if the camera is looking directly at the revolver you would see the "bullets".

Danforth,
Can you think of any reason why guns capable of live fire need to be on set, ever? I can't. Muzzle flash is a quick, cheap CGI effect. Movie gunfire sounds nothing like real gunshots, because they Foley it anyway. All firearms can be replicated, or mechanically disabled. If an authentic antique is needed for a close shot, it can be done in a more controlled environment. I've heard some say they still need to fire blanks to get authentic reactions from actors. I don't think that is a good enough reason. Get better actors.

A projectile, by definition, projects. A bullet or slug (lead, sometimes enclosed in other metals) isn't a projectile when it is part of a dummy round.

The idea I could imagine is if the camera is looking directly at the revolver you would see the "bullets".

That is the idea. The dummies are also used as props in gun belts and bandoliers, where the primers are visible so the "dimpled" variety won't work.

An obvious thing in hindsight in this case is that all the live rounds had silver coloured primers and the blanks and dummies all had brass coloured primers.

This enabled investigators to track the live rounds over time from photos taken of the "ammunition" supply. Some were located in gun belts, and some were located in ammo boxes.

I think they found a total of five live rounds.

#50 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

Seems like there's lots of slop in descriptions around these weapons.

This dummy projectile and dummy propelling charge are inert and are used for training troops in handling ammunition and loading weapons.
www.bulletpicker.com

#51

I recall from the evidence reading she went back after the incident and checked the "trays" and found a few via the rattling or not. Maybe those were the BBs you were describing, live rounds don't rattle.

I've heard some say they still need to fire blanks to get authentic reactions from actors.

I've read where they use live ammunition for that, the set of 1883 being an example. They ordered up a bunch of live .45 ammo for training.

Actors using either blanks or CGI need to "fake" the recoil, but if they have never fired a real gun they don't know what that looks like. So they get them some time with live ammo so they know.

Interestingly, the supplier that provided live ammo to the 1883 production also supplied the blanks and dummies for the Rust set.

"Can you think of any reason why guns capable of live fire need to be on set, ever?"

What if the set needs to defend itself from thugs?

Have you seen theb gun violence rate in Wyoming it's off the charts.

What if the set needs to defend itself from thugs?

So live rounds with live guns?

Have you seen theb gun violence rate in Wyoming it's off the charts.

lots of filming up there.

Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.
www.atf.gov

Lots of slop in the terms used, perhaps that was the problem

#52 A dummy does not have a propelling charge or a projectile. If it has those things it is a live round.

The link you provides is about 155 mm ammo, heavy artillery, about the size of your arm. The ammo on the rust set was +45 caliber, which is about 11.5 mm No comparison.

Haven't gotten around to watching the trial yet, but watched Hannah's and Sara's police interviews and I was just stunned at their lack of knowledge. They had no business handling firearms. Equally culpable is whoever made the decision to give them that level of responsibility. There should be some sort of certification for that kind of job.

heavy artillery, about the size of your arm.

Or his leg.

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#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 01:35 PM
"How would labor unions look at that solution?"
- - - This was a non-union crew, so...

My comment about unions was clearly not regarding this particular movie set, but about general, industry-wide automation of some safety aspects, so...

But if this part of safety inspection protocol was automated / robo-tasked instead of left to a human, who was also possibly "under the influence" quite then the accident in question wouldn't or would be extremely unlikely to happen. But that's something for industry and/or labor unions (?) to decide, which is exactly what I was referring to - www.latimes.com - Rules on how prop guns are used on film sets are about to change after 'Rust' shooting. Here's why - October 11, 2022

- - - This was a non-union crew, so...
They'd probably say hire union labor if you don't want anyone killed on set.
I'm surprised how little has been made of the union side of all this.
Like, f--- that Alec Baldwin piece of s--- for working with scabs.

"Hire union labor" seems like a conditioned Pavlovian response for some, in absence of facts.

Having "that union label" doesn't prevent you from being inexperienced or incompetent:
www.latimes.com - It was supposed to be their big break. Now two 24-year-olds are at the center of the 'Rust' shooting investigation - LAT, 2021 Nov 20

There have been 3 "misfires" / accidental discharges of the gun on set in the week prior to the accident. Both armorer and prop master should have taken a note and be more serious about their jobs.

|------- Prop master Sarah Zachary... recalled her experiences on the set of Alec Baldwin's movie "Rust." Zachary recalled the moment when she accidentally set off a dummy round when a hammer fell on it, causing an accidental misfire on set. She also claimed that she was not trained to work with the prop guns or load them, despite being asked to perform some of the tasks of the armorer. -------|

It appears that the IATSE Local 44 union camera crew of 6 people had to be replaced at the last moment that morning because they suddenly decided to go on strike and walk off the job that fateful day, so... I don't know what camera crew had to do with safety or the accident, except for this particular union labor action creating quite a bit of chaos, anxiety and rush on the set.

The low-budget shoot was scheduled to last only 21 days / 3 weeks... and the union camera crew couldn't handle it... because they kept objecting to and complaining about their "long hours," "long commute" from hotel in Albuquerque instead of closer Santa Fe (40-45 minutes vs 25 minutes on I-25), COVID protocols restrictions (required by unions) and "serious lack of safety meetings on this set."

Bonanza Creek Ranch, where the movie was being filmed, is not some new or shabby location, it has been a popular filming location for more than 60 years, including "The Man From Laramie (1955)" with Jimmy Stewart and "Blazing Saddles," "The Ballad of Buster Scruggs," and several seasons of the "Longmire" TV series.
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"because they suddenly decided to go on strike and walk off the job that fateful day"

Legwork, please.

The crew walked off the set because their safety concerns weren't being addressed.

NO ONE walks out for schittts and giggles. It has to go waaaaaay over the line for a crew to take things into their own hands. Personally, I've never even heard of it happening before this.

"except for this particular union labor action"

NOT Union action; Wildcat action the Union would NOT support, unless a clear contract violation could be shown.

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#62 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-03-08 01:50 AM
Legwork, please. The crew walked off the set because their safety concerns weren't being addressed.

When the camera crew walked off, they were not complaining about or justifying it as "safety"... at least not then, that came later. They walked off as they explained: "after filming began, the crews were told they instead would be required to make the 50-mile drive from Albuquerque each day, rather than stay overnight in nearby Santa Fe. That rankled crew members who worried that they might have an accident after spending 12 to 13 hours on the set."

www.motherjones.com - Stories of Terrible Conditions on "Rust" Set Were Emerging Even Before Fatal Shooting - Oct 22, 2021

|------- The events that prompted workers to walk off the set in New Mexico appear to have been detailed in a series of Facebook replies written before the shooting. A person who identified themselves as a member of the camera crew on Rust ... wrote a series of posts about how the crew was being treated like "Absolute dog s**t."

The posts were written in response to a video of Baldwin expressing his solidarity with Hollywood's blue-collar workforce, which is now deciding whether to ratify a labor agreement reached on Saturday between producers and the leaders of their union, the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees. "I want to say to the people in IATSE, do what you need to do," Baldwin said about the upcoming vote. "You don't like that contract? You think the contract could be better? You want to go on strike? Go on strike."

Under the video, the crew member, whose Facebook page identifies them as a member of IATSE Local 600, highlights conditions...:

|--- At the moment I'm fighting to get my crew, on this movie, hotel rooms when we go long or are too tired to drive the hour back from location to Albuquerque. They either say no or offer a garbage roadside motel that's used as a homeless shelter. In fact the line producer on the flick complained the motel she booked charges her 10 bucks more per night than the homeless. They haven't even paid the crew a proper check. ---|
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www.democracynow.org - IATSE Film Crew on "Rust" Walked Off to Protest Conditions - Oct 26, 2021

|------- All this happened after some of the unionized IATSE below-the-line crew members had walked off the set of "Rust" earlier on the day of the shooting to protest their housing, payment and working conditions. ...

DUTCH MERRICK (past President of I.A.T.S.E. Local 44, director, gun safety instructor): ... From what I've heard, the armorer was not present during this sequence. My guess is, I understand - from what I understand, they were coming back from lunch. There may have been a rush for them to get back to rehearsing. I imagine it was a pretty jarring day, having much of the crew walk off and other people come in to replace them, so there was likely a bit of mayhem. ... -------|
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Like I said in my previous post, other than "creating quite a bit of chaos, anxiety and rush on the set" (or as Dutch Merrick said, "a bit of mayhem" which may have been a contributory factor?), the union camera crew walkout (and their non-union replacements) had no other affect on set's safety conditions - which continued to be [very poorly] served by the same inexperienced, incompetent, unqualified IATSE-approved union personnel.
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