Perhaps a worse tax proposal, revealed a little later in the story... "Assemblyman Mike Davis (D-Los Angeles) is targeting a wider group of consumers. Almost every Californian would bear some of the brunt of his proposal to charge a 25-cent tax on every plastic carryout bag from stores."

One of the homes which suffered extensive damage in our area Thursday is owned by a person who moved here after losing their home during Katrina. Hurricane, tornado... maybe they ought to move to California for an earthquake and the trifecta.

BET-
An asshole most of the time? Me thinks you don't know me werry well! I'm probably the most civil hard core rightie you find here. I don't resort to name calling, etc. I always try to keep serious dialogue on the issues and never personal. I like to make jokes - often very self deprocating humor.

As to your hypothetical - here's my take on it as I, in my human way, try to make sense of God's actions in this world.

Firstly, sin is not from God but from satan. God has given over domain of earth to satan - it's full of sin, death, destruction, etc. God allows things to occur - things which, often, we don't understand. Things like "why do innocent children die" or "why would all of Oohrah's neighborhood die" or "why do bad things happen to Christians when good things happen to vile people..."

God never promised us a utopia on earth (after Adam/Eve). Bad things, whether individual suffering or mass suffering (9/11, earthquakes) will occur. So I don't make the hard link between sinful nature and hurricane Katrina.

I don't make the leap that God is necessarily punishing our sin by wiping out large groups or even by allowing the death of our loved one. We have ALL sinned and fallen short of His glory.

So to answer your question, my take is that God allows bad things to happen in our lives for reasons we may never fully fathom. Maybe with things like 9/11 it's a call for the nation to return to Him. With indivduals in my case, it's a situation where we give thanks to him for what DIDN'T happen to us.

If our community had been wiped out, it would have given others the teaching opportunity to understand that we all need to be ready to meet our maker... that no one is guaranteed tomorrow.

It would have given rescue workers as real sense of the devastation possible... and perhaps lead some of them to turn toward Christ. For those who'd survived, perhaps their spared life would take on new meaning.

Yes, the sinful world of heartache would be to "blame," though I wouldn't necessarily assign that to the specific sins of those who died or their lack of sufficent prayer. All humans are sinful. All of them.

BHO must be speaking about the states of denial, confusion, etc. Or just making a joke that his crowd didn't pick up on.

Either way not a big deal. Nor would it have been a big deal if a Rep had said it.

DUMP-
We'll have to disagree regarding matters of faith. To witness this disaster area - homes destroyed, hundreds of large trees down, etc.- and to have had no fatalities or major injuries... that's quite a blessing.

God most certainly figures in the equation - not only in times of distress - but in good times as well. For those who walk daily with God, events like this strengthen our bond with Him.

Being a follower doesn't immunize us from bad things. I don't feel as though God let me down or that I'm being punished. Stuff happens - this is a sinful world full of heartache.

Had a severe thunderstorm roll thru here an hour or so ago. Before that we'd spent the afternoon cutting down/hauling trees... and I spoke with the local FOX channel. The interview was on the 6pm news and likely will appear on their 10pm news. A local Masonic lodge set up a big cookout right in front of our house. Good stuff. Plus we've gotten to talk with some neighbors we hardly ever see.

At least if we get another bad storm there aren't any more trees (except two) that can really mess up our property. Every other tree is no taller than 5 feet now. The adjusters were here yesterday. A local church had everyone for a spaghetti dinner yesterday. So it's been an overall good thing in terms of community.

I sense some want this thread to move toward the "if God is real, why didn't he protect such a Christian as Oohrah" or "is Oohrah not a strong enough Christian if such things happen to him."

Bad things happen to people (Christians or not) everyday. Being a Christian doesn't make us immune to freak accidents, bad health, death, grief, etc. Faith helps comfort those who grieve... giving them hope for eternal peace. Often times, blessings arise from what had seemed like the gloomiest times. Our situation (no injuries) is really just a case of material property being messed with. Our insurance can replace these losses.

For what it's worth, there have been several standing neighborhood homes condemned (or others simply destroyed) along the F-3 tornado's path. We were smack dab in the path, yet the tornado apparently skipped off the ground just as it approached our home - the homes just before and just after us were either destroyed or condemned. So in that sense you could say were were spared not only our lives but also our property.

That's not to say our neighbors were heathens. That's not how it all works. I suspect they'd praise God that their lives were spared and that others had been spared.

It is comforting that our church members came out in force to help the few Pinedale families in the neighborhood. And we had two volunteers (a father and his high school son) who spent the whole day with a chain saw... they were from a local church. Their home had been out of the storm's path - yet they wanted to help their fellow man - we didn't know them prior. Non-Christians are also apt to do similar acts of kindness, though in this case none did - at least none did at any of the four or five homes closest to us. Those helping were either paid crews or relatives.

DUMP-
God told me he had to take a smoke break for a few minutes and I'd be on my own. So stuff happens.

What'd he do, steal his kid's girlfriend?

I have no problem with a kid being instructed to stand. He can be silent if he wishes, though you have to wonder about the kid and his parents if he lacks love for his country - evidenced by his willinglness to at least stand for the pledge. Most kids are compliant... and follow the lead of parents and/or teachers.

For a kid to defy the rules and for his parents to back the kid in that endeavor... I feel bad for the kid, who is being led down a bad path by his folks.

Made major headway on yard clean up. The adjusters showed up today. Cops continue to patrol for looters and other potential problems. They've blocked the TV crews from going house to house.

DON-
I was indulging in adult beverage while watching the Celtics dismantle the Eastern Conference defending champion Cavs. Game over... what next? So while watching our home boy Chris Paul's Hornets, I keep seeing warnings/watches scrawl across the TV screen.

No big deal at first - just up in Virginia. Then, a little while later, around Pilot Mountain and in counties in NC.

Then, tornado warnings to the west of us moving east. So I go to the local station (WXII) and watch their intense weather people doing their thing. Around 11pm they tell us there's swirling activitly just west of Clemmons and could touch down at any time.

So we go to the basement. Jane, our little old dog Mo (short for Mohawk) and I are in our basement watching the TV. Power goes out and on a couple times.

So by now I've put batteries in a radio and it says a tornado warning is in place for our local area.

As happens when imbibing, I've got to piss like a race horse... but it's really bad outside. I walk from our finished half basement... out thru the garage to see what it's like.

Oddly it was kind of quiet... no driving rain like there had been. So I'm thinking it's safe to piss upstairs - surely nothing could move in that fast. Well, by the time I looked up to see very ominous purple skies via the lightning... the wind kicked up to an unhealthy level. I quickly closed the door and walked back to Jane in the basement... then said it "wasn't that bad" and had to take a leak.

As a typical wife she told me she was worried and wanted me with her and to not go upstairs. As a man I told her to grow a pair - well not exactly - but I told her I'd be right back down.

By the time I could make it halfway up the stairs the SOUND of wind was so loud it scared me to the point I turned around and hustled back down the stairs and we all slid under the computer desk in the basement.

In no more than a handful of seconds there was a very loud sound... glass breaking,etc. And then in a few more seconds it quieted down.

Had I been up on the main floor with dick in hand I might have been a goner. Several houses were destroyed... others mostly demolished. I'm sure there's a pun or joke in here somewhere... but we're just glad to be among the breathing.

It was an experience kind of like when I was a kid and riding some really intense carnival rides. You thought you'd survive, but you still wondered about whether you really would. Quite a rush to say the least.

We had an EF-3 storm. WXII, WGHP should have video. Check their sites.

Thanks for the love, ITSME. I knew I could count on you.

Yes, we are all safe. Our dog freaked a bit and our home alarm went crazy for a while... but I had to wait till the storm passed enough to feel safe enough to walk to the garage to disarm it.

Thanks for the encouragement and kind words. Sorry to disappoint, ITS, but I wasn't trolling for pity. I have a healthy respect for most on the DR even though we disagree. I just thought people would want to know if someone they "know" is involved in something like this... I know I would.

But if anyone wants to send pity money, they can send their generous donation to The George W. Bush Foundation for Literacy.

I would make a joke about our trailor... or how our black lawn jockey was unscathed... or how my rebel flag still flies proudly from my Chevy.

We were middle of the road on the damages. Some homes are total losses. Some unscathed. If you looked down on our home from the sky, everything you see has damage, though we (fortunately) don't have gaping holes in our roof.

One neighbor had relatively little damage - except for a flying board which pierced their outer wall and nearly impaled them while they crouched in the darkness.

The wind was strong enough to literally twist our basketball backboard about 45 degrees.

BOAZ-
I'm taking a break from clean up. The storm apparently messed up Advance and Clemmons, then hopped over to Kernersville and onto Greensboro where it really messed with the Sandy Ridge area.

I sensed we were in for a long night when I heard the windows in our garage doors blow out... then heard a major crashing sound - it was our glass sun room being blasted. Got to bed by around 145am.

Last night Jane and I walked throughout the neighborhood. Among the normal things like houses being destroyed, cars with trees stuck in them, etc, was something rather interesting: the wind had lifted and moved a man hole cover about two feet. For anyone who has ever tried to pry one of those out of its spot, that's a very tough thing to budge.

It looks like a war zone. That leveled home is only a few hundred yards fromm ours. Trees, buildings, vehicles, etc... not good. And word is that Sunday will bring similar storms.

BAD-
The angst has to do with the legality of their being here... and, to a similar degree, their apparent unwillingness to assimilate.

LAR-
Did we get Saddam?

Do you trust al Jazeera more than the US media?

Neither question is all that difficult. Your prevarications may muddy the waters, but others can see where you're coming from.

LAR-
When we captured Saddam, did you believe it at first? How long did it take for you to believe it and what evidence led you to believe it?

What evidence do you need to believe this story? Seriously. What evidence is, for you, credible?

DANNI,
What is your own definition of 'supporting the troops?'

"Best get yerself a pair o' tap shoes." - DUMB

?

Why's that, JUDAS?

Relax everyone. Prices will come down as soon as Hillary bombs Iran. That'll teach 'em.

What is this, some watered-down theory that won't hold water? This guy's all wet.

While it's her decision whether to release her returns - and she has every right to refuse - I think it's virtually a requirement for a potential first family to divulge their returns. It simply comes with the territory. I suppose it's the difference between following the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.

For Father's Day I plan on telling Mrs Oohrah that while orchids on the kitchen table might be nice, what I'd really like are tulips on my organ.

Is there any inherent difference in the way a lib or a con defines "happiness" for himself?

Maybe those wasps should stick to incest.

Thanks for playing. LAR/MON None will change the other's view but I enjoy the dialogue. Have a good day.

LAR-
I didn't equate dissenters with slackers. I used the slacker terminology to show a degree of dissent. There's a difference between a slacker at work... a dolt who goes through the motions. It's an entirely different work situation when a person goes beyond simply being a slacker to one who actively argues his dissention to any/all who'll hear it... and doesn't cease the complaining.

That dissenter becomes actively engaged in subverting the morale and quite possibly the effectiveness of the rest of his team...

To MONEY's point, if you've ever seen an opponent's players getting into it with each other... or have seen players openly bitching with the coach... or have seen the body language of lack of will on the part of the opponent - it most certainly gives you encouragement. If nothing else, it tells you to forge onward. And, in war without a clock, one's will to fight is critical.

This was brought out on that Hiroshima photo thread regarding Japan's will to fight to the death.

JSP-
I just get a bit weary of people assuming other's motives for purchases... whether that's something you implied - I was just making a general comment on how people in the USA ought to be free to choose.

I agree with you to the extent an SUV might be overkill. Stupid? Not necessarily. Perhaps more like misplaced priorities, but then someone might look at my business suit or my bling and say the same thing. Yo.

Just kidding you, JSP.

LAR-
If you want your team to win its game I don't think you keep it up during the game. If you thought they shouldn't have put that game on the schedule the time for debate was prior to game day. Same with the football huddle analogy. Internal debate is good. But at some juncture a decision has to be made and it requires 100% focus to reach its optimal effectiveness. Not to say it can't be done with slackers (we've all worked with those) but those dissenters who actively continue to speak out against the project tend to work themselves out of a job - insubordination, poor atitude. I've had to let people go and that's part of the equation.

Now that the game is on, how can one's blatant actions & words to hinder his team's effectiveness/morale be interpreted as anything other than to be non-support by the teams on the field?

"I must be the voice of reason here because nobody EVER argues against me.." JSP

:^)

I used to think the same thing of myself. Then I realized no one gives a crap about what I say. Just like Rodney Dangerfield...

JSP-
I've never had an SUV, but we did have a Taurus station wagon when the kids were small and later got a Honda CRV to haul them from practices, etc.

I don't begrudge someone wanting to drive an SUV for whatever reason(s) they choose. Just like with the size of their home... or whether they choose to eat filet vs hamburger.

When/if someone feels the cost of gas & maintenance doesn't outweigh the reasons they bought the SUV they'll make a change. It comes down to a cost vs benefit decision. We had this same quandry back during the first Gulf War. Dealerships had a hard time unloading their inventory of large vehicles.

Until then, it's their choice as to how to spend their money.

MONEY-
I hear you on the 'fans' analogy, yet I still don't reach the same conclusion as you do.

The fans (even if they hate ownership or certain players) still actively root for their team to win - to be successful on that drive... to win that game. They support the team's goals while maybe disagreeing with certain team components.

I see the USA as a team comprised of many parts. The troops, our government & policy makers, our citizens, the media. We each have a role to play - just like in team sports - which contributes to overall team cohesiveness and effectiveness.

When all present a united front vs the opponent I've got to think morale and effectiveness are heightened. When one component of that team decides it doesn't like the direction and actively works to spread dissent/doubt I question that component's desire for victory.

Now you could argue that US war dissenters are much like the turmoil in the huddle or maybe the dissenting fan in the stands. Do you think the opponent who hears that dissent is encouraged?

We've all been in stadiums where the home team has been boo'd... or the road team has the loudest cheering section. Players will say it doesn't bother them (you can judge whether they're truthful or not), but the visiting players derive encouragement. Maybe only incremental... and doesn't affect the game's outcome... but it can be a factor.

When it comes to football, both teams are trying to win and when the clock runs out the game is over. In war there is no clock - so whether to fight or quit is not based on a predetermined time frame - unless the USA unilaterally invokes one.

"So you are in complete total agreement with what the company you work for does and never ever begrudge any policies they impliment? Workers across the country don't agree with what direction their company moves but they continue to perform their work and support the company." - MONEY

You've used that analogy in the past. While it does have some merit, keep in mind if you're that dissenting employee you don't actively work to subvert the firm's morale and company procedures... doing so would likely get you fired. Wouldn't it?

I'll use an analogy I've used in the past. Football team... offense in the huddle... each receiver telling the QB to throw him the ball... runners calling for the ball... dissention behind the scenes.

Ultimately, the QB makes the call. Even if some of the players disagree with that play call, when they break the huddle they present a united front vs the opponent. Unless they're a selfish egotist who wants to force a trade or something similar.

The time for debate occured. There is still the "right" to dissent regarding strategy, but at what cost to company/team/troop morale and effectiveness?

In this age of instant communication how do we think our enemy views our internal dissent and less than 100% focus on victory... and how do our troops view that dissent? Does it provide them encouragement?

BOB-
In fairness to KLIFF, he and I hashed out that piece... and actually it wasn't KLIFF who said that. He was quoting another poster. KLIFF's point was essentially yours - that no one knows Tillman's end destination.

While I agree that the Heaven/Hell decision rests with God... and that He knows your heart... I opined that if it were indeed true that Tillman was an avowed atheist and never repented of that to "get right with God"... then I have every confidence he's in hell based upon what we read in Scripture. It's either that or God has an "atheist wing" behind those pearly gates.

For me the grayer area is a lukewarm Christian or someone who really doesn't want to be bothered with God but who otherwise lives a fairly decent life. We don't know the person's heart - only God does. Thankfully those decisions don't rest with other humans!

ZAT-
What song is that?

AU-
I realize I'm just one person, but if Romney had still been on the NC ballot yesterday I would have voted for him. That said, I fully intend to vote Republican (McCain) come November.

I ended up voting McCain yesterday. My vote really meant nothing since he'd already locked up the nomination. I never really warmed to the Huck and didn't even realize Keyes would be on the ballot. Ron Paul was on there as well.

2112-
The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. And those who know Your name will put their trust in You; For You, Lord, have not forsaken those who seek You. (Ps 9; 9-10)

Very sorry to hear of your loss.

LAR-
What makes this case (for me) more interesting is the timing. It was Cinco de Mayo, so you'd expect to see this sort of thing on that day. I think the teacher had had enough and took the flag - maybe there had been some student threats - perhaps that'll come out in the lawsuit. I think you cut the kid some slack that day, of all days.

It's also interesting the location - Idaho. Not what you'd consider the hotbed of Hispanics.

726-
I wasn't defending the teacher's actions in my post. But to answer your hypothetical, I wouldn't have called in the ACLU. I would have been critical of the teacher taunting a student and failing to return the Bible or this kid's flag. I have NO problem with the teacher confiscating something which he deems to be disruptive and potentially provocative.

My question dealt with this: at what point did it become something "worth" getting the ACLU involved? Would it have been permissible to have simply put the flag aside and given it back at the end of the school day? Or was it the failure to give it back and the (alledged) taunting which took place? Or is this a case of a person/family inflaming a situation to ruin someone's career?

"I can taste ..." - HERM

I'm also looking forward to these debates, but for opposite reasons. You're sounding awfully confident. For your sake I hope your right, but McCain's a pretty blunt guy. Assuming McCain takes the gloves off, that is. Sometimes he tries to be too nice.

If the teacher had given back the flag without incident, does anyone think that would have ended it... or would the ACLU have been brought in because the flag was confiscated in the first place?