Ray; Go fuck yourself.

Government parasites say the nicest things.

I start collecting SS this month and I plan to work as long as practically possible. I figure it won't last much more than ten years. That's when you'll have to live on mudcakes. Laugh while you can, dimwit.

Ray, these "tax sucking government workers" are the teachers that educate your kids, the cops that keep all your gold and silver safe, and the firefighters that keep your house from burning down. Their "victims" are members of society that directly benefit from their services!

Posted by bartimus

He's right. I was too narrow. I have no sympathy for you stupid morons who either work for government or who vote Republican or Democrat. You got the government you deserve - good and hard.

That makes both of us.

Yes Larry, I have no sympathy for tax sucking government workers. If you are one of them, tough shit. See how much peace you have when you are flat broke.

My sympathy goes towards their victims. Those who go to work every day trying to earn a honest living, only to see taxes and inflation reduce them to poverty.

I didn't say I was sympathetic. I'm not.

What has kept inflation artificially low is the export of dollars as recorded by the balance of payment deficits. Because the dollar has been the world's reserve currency since WWII, other central banks hold them as reserves for their rapidly expanding money supply. In essence, other economies have been absorbing our inflation.

When the tide leaves the shore, eventually it has to come back. The rise in food, energy and commodity prices is symptomatic of a trend towards exchanging dollars for tangible goods. Debt laden Americans have to bid against foreigners anxious to get rid of their dollars. The Federal Government is getting a reputation as a deadbeat. Inflation well into double digits is likely as the dollar continues to fall into the abyss.

Think about this when you go to the polls to vote for a Democrat or a Republican.

The dollar has been losing purchasing for almost a hundred years. The process really began to accelerate after Nixon took the dollar off the gold standard. From that time on, government can spend and borrow without constraints.

There are not many years left before the dollar has no purchasing power. I wouldn't bet against that trend. Especially the way Congress is spending and Bernanke is flooding the economy with "liquidity."

Yes dear reader. State governments can go bankrupt and they will. Maybe millions of government pensioners are going to be sorely disappointed.

When I saw the title, Hillary, Obama and McCain first came to mind.

Let's bomb Iran. That will cause WWIII to start and we can get out of this depression.

Posted by member2586

Don't think that those madmen won't try it. Historically, it's proven way to divert the masses' attention from their economic failures.

Larry

If taxes had a rational connection between what we pay and what we receive, I would be all for them. The problem is that as long as taxes are confiscatory, tax consumers have full license to spend as they see fit without regard to your values.

No conspiracy. That word presumes the parties involved know they are dishonest. It's more of a cultural ignorance as your retort illustrates.

I pay taxes because of the penalties involved if I don't. That's why it is larcenous. No different than a thug confronting you with a gun, offering you a choice between your money or your life. If the thug had been doing this from the time you remember, you would be used to the extortion.

Governments always fail when its citizens give it full license to lie, steal, persecute and murder. It has all the tools it needs to destroy us, and it is.

What do y'all think brought us out of the Depression of 1929??
Taxation of the rich.

Danni - your ignorance of economics and history is near complete. I even wonder if you know how to balance a checkbook.

When counting ALL federal obligations, Washington is so badly in the red that if they taxed every citizen 100% of what they earn, it wouldn't be enough to cover what they spend.

The rich can afford the influence to have tax laws adjusted in their favor. Though on paper we have a graduated income tax, in practice it's close to a flat tax. All you have is the pitifully weak vote that gives the illusion of control.

And who do you think is going to bring us the Depression of 2010? Dupes like you and Money who believed they could bend government to steal for them. Your selfishness blinds to to the fact that a government that steals FOR you, also steals FROM you. You and your type are the losers in this game of rob Peter to pay Paul.

Idiot fucks, who are worse than the rich, they are even more greedy and that is not by money it is grounded in some messed up rational logic principle.

Posted by moneywar

Libertarians recognize taxes for what they are, a form of theft. There's Moneywar with the mentality of a thief, calling his victims, "idiot fucks" and "greedy." He thinks he deserves to decide how you spend your money.

The rational logical principle is property protection. When government becomes the very thief you expect to be protected from, it doesn't deserve to be supported.

I have just the passage Christians can send their mother.

While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.
But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"
And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matt. 12:46-50, Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21)

You are not looking at the whole picture Vern. In spite of decades or improvements in technology and productivity, prices still managed to climb. Or to say it another way, the dollar continued to lose purchasing power. There is a finite limit to how long a currency can lose purchasing power, and I don't think we are very far away from that limit.

Bush is only the last president in a chain of presidents that promised more than government can deliver. Welfare and warfare ate at the capital base of this country and now there is no base to support the standard of living Americans have been used to.

Tao - Yes, I would say their monopoly over first class mail has been broken by the Internet.

I never bothered sending cards. I used to visit instead.

The EU sure seems to be doing fine Ray.

The EU is right behind us. Not having an expensive war machine gave them more leeway, but still they are trending towards bankruptcy.

Danni, the economic crimes come from both parties. Their only difference are on spending priorities. And even there, only in a few areas. Both parties are on a spend and borrow frenzy, frantically trying to spend us out of the recession. The problem is that's what caused the problems they think they can correct.

You have yet to grasp the enormous quantities of debt this nation has accumulated. There is no capital to rebuild the economy. It's all going towards servicing debt. Roosevelt got away with mismanaging the economy because government was much smaller then and had little debt to begin with.

Sorry to tell you, you are living in a dream world.

I would imagine that the cost of energy and inflation has hit them pretty hard too.

Socialism is about neighbor stealing from neighbor through the agency of government. Every nation that tried it has had disastrous results. It should be as obvious as trying to balance a checkbook.

What is so damn stupid about this party is if they don't provide some type of relief American tax payers will be paying it in the huge economic down turn.

The federal government is bankrupt with debt beyond its means. It's only a matter of time before lenders cut them off. Then what are you going to do then?

If Libertarians ever gained power the end result would be a depression of such proportions that Communism would find fertile ground in which to grow just as it did in the thirties.

Who is Danni going to blame when it happens with Libertarians not in power? Because that is exactly the direction this country is going.

Hey, if it worked in 1776 why not in 2008???

Hope you enjoy the Depression, Danni. Don't say we didn't warn you about the destructive nature of big government.

Voting today is like choosing your executioner. The endless war, the declining economy and the fatal stupidity of Washington are late warning signs. I'm living in a land of the brain dead who are voting for the self destruction of this nation.

Another sign that the US plans to attack Iran.

"LONDON (Reuters) - Oil major Royal Dutch Shell (RDSa.L: Quote, Profile, Research) has pulled out of a planned gas project in Iran, after coming under pressure not to participate from U.S. lawmakers who were concerned about Iran's nuclear programme.

"A spokeswoman said on Saturday that the world's second-largest non government-controlled oil company by market capitalisation was pulling out of Phase 13 of the giant South Pars gas field but may yet join later stages of the field's development."

In Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and the Gaza Strip, places where the population is doubling every 16 years because of the high birth rate, a woman of 41 years with 10 or more children is not as odd as a woman of 41 with just one child!!!

Who would have guessed that burkas were sexy?

Sharpy can always threaten to shut down the IRS.

Judging from some of these posts, there is a new god in town: the State.

What will it take for you people to accept our changing world and all the safeguards that our elected officals want to put in place without crying conspirisy at every turn.

Sincerely Reichwingdon.

You're going to have a tough time getting odds on that bet.

It will probably be a close election like they usually are. The winners will have the president they deserve and the rest of us will suffer for it.

And this.

Most people think that, with such large federal deficits year after year, the U.S. Treasury would have accumulated the largest debt of any sector.

Yes, they are big. But they're not the largest.

According to the Fed's latest Flow of Funds report tabulating all U.S. credit market debts at year-end 2007 ...

* Corporate debts are more than double the size of the Treasury's ($10.7 trillion vs. $5.1 trillion).

* Mortgage debts are even larger -- $14.6 trillion.

Private-Sector Debts Far Exceed U.S. Treasury Debts
* And the grand total, including all debt categories, is $48.8 trillion -- or more than triple America's entire GDP.

As a whole, these debts are also a huge, long-term burden on the dollar for three fundamental reasons:

1. These $48.8 trillion in credit market debts are a continuing drag on the U.S. economy, especially when many of them start to go bad, as they are doing now ...

2. These debts are another major excuse for the Fed to pump in cheap money to ease the burden, and ...

3. These debts are also a strong incentive for politicians to simply let the dollar fall in value, helping the government and other debtors repay their debts with cheaper money.

But the $48.8 trillion debt reported in the Federal Reserve's Flow of Funds report is merely the tip of the iceberg. It does not include the contingent obligations of the U.S. government, which I told you about under Report #1. Nor does it include the massive amounts tied up in derivatives, the subject of the next government report ...

Ponder this children.

Unfortunately, the warning has fallen on deaf ears -- so much so that long-time GAO head David M. Walker has recently resigned, hoping he can get his message out more effectively on his own. His main points:

1. The federal deficit is not something that comes and goes. It's built in. It's very large. And its growth trajectory takes America on a veritable collision course with bankruptcy! According to the GAO, unless radical fiscal reform is instituted quickly, the U.S. federal deficit could reach 20% of GDP, or five times greater than the worst level of this century.

2. State and local deficits are on a similar path. Thus, any efforts to shift some of the fiscal burden from federal to local governments will be futile.

3. This astronomical -- and potentially devastating -- growth in our debt has little to do with the ups and downs in the economy and has everything to do with locked-in, predictable aging of our population.

For years, we've heard warnings about baby boomers retiring, collecting benefits and becoming a drain on the economy. And for years, no one seemed to care; it was too distant in time. But now the day of reckoning is here as the first baby boomers started collecting Social Security benefits late last year.

So from this point onward, the bill is starting to come due: Nearly 80 million Americans becoming eligible for Social Security retirement benefits over the next two decades -- an average of more than 10,000 per day. But ...

4. The burden of the government's future obligations for Social Security pales in comparison to the burden for Medicare. In fact, the government's future obligations for Medicare Part D alone exceed all of the unfunded obligations for Social Security.

5. Even if the economy could somehow grow much faster, it would not be enough to solve the problem. For that, you'd have to see our GDP expand at 10% or more every year for the next 75 years!

6. If corrective action is not taken now, then later, when deficits get out of hand, the only way to close the gap will be to cut federal spending by 60% or double all taxes -- fiscal shocks that would crush the U.S. economy and depress it for decades.

7. Overall, the federal government's fiscal burden -- including expected Social Security, Medicare and other liabilities -- totals $50.5 trillion, or $400,000 for every full-time worker in America.

Most kids are compliant... and follow the lead of parents and/or teachers.
For a kid to defy the rules and for his parents to back the kid in that endeavor... I feel bad for the kid, who is being led down a bad path by his folks.

That's the problem of having the integrity not to bow down to the criminal State.

Millions of people will pinch their nose in November and vote for the least-awful, and McCain will win.

That's how we got Bush.

The sheeple are so conditioned to believing they have to vote for a Democrat or Republican, they can't change even if it destroys this country. It's not hard to know what to expect from a clone of Bush who graduated near the bottom of his class at Annapolis.

was from that idiot ray.
rwd

Now doubt RWD voted for Bush - twice. He's so smart, he plans to vote for Bush's clone.

And I think YOU are being naive.

We'll just have to wait to see who is naive.

I think there will be strikes aginst certain installations and networks and maybe supporting the moderates in Iran to revolt.

Revolt yes. Against the US and Israel. The kind of revolt you envision has never worked. I would not be surprised if the Iranians mount a full scale counterattack, like sinking the Persian Gulf fleet for instance. Then there is no turning back.

If you're hoping to see a President Obama, I might say the same to you.

The decline and fall of the US Empire has reached the fait accompli stage. Obama is an establishment candidate and will do what the establishment expects of him.

Franky, Jest. I was appalled that you believe the bullshit coming out of Israel and Washington. Haven't you given any thought that they are trying to put another one over us again?
How can any rational person imagine Syria would attempt to build nuclear facilities with Israel watching every move they make? Iran can't even build a nuclear power plant without Russian help, much less nuclear bombs.
The US and Israel have a history of aggressive militarism, not Iran.
Would the mullah's risk being "obliterated?"

Think man. Think! You are being manipulated.

Our economy is starting to show the damage from Bush's military misadventures. One more invasion will really sink us. Be careful for what you wish for.

Jest

I'm underwhelmed by how well you think you know someone you don't know.

I live a pretty straight, healthy, peaceful life. Enjoying it one day at a time. My career was as an engineer designing machinery that improves the productivity of this nation.

You seem to have the territorial instincts of a dog. Rather than thank me for showing you how gullible you are, you rather snarl at me.

Yes Jest. After the WMD and Iraqi fiasco, it's stunning to watch people like you fall for the same lies again.

I'm just standing on the sidelines watching this nation destroy itself. You can be proud of your contribution.

I hope we lose (which won't happen).

I wouldn't count on it. The US is more vulnerable militarily and economically than you think.

A nuclear armed Iran? Hey Jest. Are you that gullible to believe the neocon bullshit again?

Syria's nuclear facilities? I guess you forgot about Powell's infamous presentation at the UN complete with satellite photographs.

I have to conclude you are as simple as a child.

Ah yes. But I remind you all, politicians don't learn from history. It's no surprise why history repeats ad nauseum. This country has roughly a 40 year war cycle. That's enough time the a generation tired of war to be replaced by a generation new to war.

I know...talking always works better. History has proven that.

Posted by jestgettinalong

History also shows that heads of state prefer war.

If Bush hits Iran in the next several months, it will be without the approval or permission of his Congress or his people.

I see no chance he would be brought to justice if the Democrats take Congress and the presidency. The American public predictably buries their heads in the sand.

According to rumor, the attack is planned this summer.
My guess is that the probabilities increase if Obama is the official nominee. There is a good chance for a Democrat sweep, leaving the neocons one last chance to destroy Israel's enemies.

Good discussion. Gotta go.

People demand economic security; which is why laissez-faire is impossible.

As far as popular support goes, I agree. That doesn't discredit the theoretical model of a perfect voluntary society. The model serves as a reference for understanding why coercive (socialist) societies fail.

The fact that libertarians can't recognize this reality about human behavior is why you will be forever irrelevant.

I can't speak for other libertarians. For myself, I strive to understand how societies work as a mechanic would understand how cars work.

Well, if you discount spending that creates value. Where did the Internet originate?

It doesn't miss every time. But on the whole, when bureaucrats are spending other people's money, they are not as prudent as an entrepreneur risking his own money.

Then we have to remember that the State takes its money by force and it does not have to make a profit. That gives the state the license to waste money on misadventures that the corporations don't have.

On the other hand, any kind of pre-State entity like a priesthood was not possible until an economic surplus could be produced.

That gets at the heart of what creates wealth. Only voluntary trade can do that. Because of the coercive nature of government, all it can do is redistribute wealth which in effect, destroys wealth.

To call the State parasitical, rather than a co-partner in capitalist development, is absurd.

I was talking yesterday about the State and the corporations as partners in crime. It makes both parasitic. That partnership is at the root of the coming Depression.

So you agree with me that modern corporations are bureaucratized, authoritarian, central planners. Excellent.

I've seen them evolve into mini-governments over the decades.

Still, central government is the parent corporation by means of its complete monopoly over its borders, a monopoly backed by police and military force.

The Corporations derive their cartel powers through the central government. This began as far back as, I think, Elizabethan England when the queen granted monopolies.

Hey Zat. Credentials mean nothing when you can't explain the jargon you post. You're too retarded to argue with. You need another cat.

"Silly doctrinaire theories which regard the state as a parasitic excrescence on society cannot explain its centuries-long persistence,

The masses look to the State for protection. Famous thinkers like Hobbes, Mill, Marx, Plato, Aristotle and Locke wrote on that theme.

Religion has persisted longer than the modern nation-state. That doesn't prove it delivers what it promises. Same for the State.

The State is parasitic in the sense that it doesn't produce anything. Beyond some basic services, it is a consumption expense. Our government now consumes more resources than are available to sustain it. That is another way to explain the coming economic collapse.

Both religion and statism will persist as long as the masses maintain faith in them.

I would rather use market signals, when possible, to determine production targets. That being said, the modern corporation is nothing if not a bureaucratized, central planning institution on a large scale.

And they often fail. When corporations fail, their losses are compartmentalized. When governments fail, the whole nation suffers for it.

Have you met Ray?
He's more stupid and useless than you are.

Posted by Zatoichi

Funny. He says that every time I embarrass him.

Silly doctrinaire theories which regard the state as a parasitic excrescence on society cannot explain its centuries-long persistence,

Nonsense. It's easy to explain. Politics is religion by another name. Like priests, politicians offer more than they can deliver. They use the same brainwashing techniques to keep the masses under control.

To demonize state authoritarianism while ignoring identical albeit contract-consecrated subservient arrangements in the large-scale corporations which control the world economy is fetishism at its worst.

With what military? The history books are replete with empires that deteriorated into bankruptcy and tyranny long before corporations existed. Whatever police power corporations derive, it is through the agency of State. The argument is silly.

Your model of busy little worker bees in industrial plants will be relegated to the dustbin of history.

What an imagination! My engineering specialty is factory automation.

A different mode of distributing income will be necessary in a society where most workers are superfluous.

Hayek coined the term "spontaneous order" to describe distribution from the individual level. In other words a true free market without government interference. Central planning has proved over and over again to be incapable of managing a complex market society. The root cause of the coming depression has to do with the failure of central planning.

You have the freedom to choose between corporate tweedledee and corporate tweedledum.

You can choose self-employment or starting your own business. You have the freedom to quit jobs you don't like. I've had good employers and bad employers.

Employers have to compete for employees as well as compete for customers. That's had a major impact on improving employment conditions.

The difference is that my pessimism on our economy of based on sound knowledge of theory, history and statistics. It's reality.

Using technology to displace unrewarding manual labor is a good thing in the long run.

Then what's the problem?

Reactionaries like you that are so locked into this 19th century industrial capitalist mentality can't see it.

It seems to me that it is Marxism that is based on 19th century mores. I see a future with unlimited supplies of energy. I see artificial intelligence close to matching human intelligence. An 20/80 society would be impossible without them. So I don't see what you are talking about with this 19th century mentality.

We must have Ray's "engineering" credentials ...

1972 BSME Fairleigh Dickinson University, Teaneck NJ.

You don't see me cut and pasting jargon I can't explain in understandable language. And unlike you, you don't see me accepting computer models on faith. For a guy who claims to be so well educated, you have a hard time communicating ideas.

Employment as a capitalist wage slave is a form of slavery

Marxist claptrap. It's a voluntary contract.

Secondly, real freedom cannot be realized as long as people engage in necessary but unwanted labor.

You have to produce to survive. That means work. Even primitive societies had to work.

the 20/80 society.

The doomsdayers have a perfect record of being wrong. Just as bad as the Christians. It goes back to your ignorance of the concept of wealth. What you fear is a successful capitalist society.

Then I ask, wouldn't that free people from what you call "unwanted labor" as it has been doing since the 19th century? And this bothers you?

unlike you, who is always defending corporatists.

We just went through this the other night. I'm tired of going through this time after time with a flea brain.

No one should be ashamed to do an honest days work, regardless of occupation.

Unless like you, they think of employment as slavery.

Worry is counterproductive.

Posted by Zatoichi

Considering the source, I find that statement laughable.

You always tell me to judge you by what you post. I'm not ashamed to say I work for a living. You seem to be to the point of putting it down.

Hahaha. I have my kids buying all the gold and silver they can afford.

It is a source of wonderment how Nulli manages to maintain his freedom from work. Where would he be without "socialist tax slaves?"

Translation: they're self-righteous bible thumpers who will brainwash their kids.

Posted by nullifidian

I can imagine Nulli teaching his kids how to avoid work.

Look at the bright side. They could have been Muslims.

With the ass she has, I would think black men would like her better.

Reminds me of the old Soviet quota system. As long as the numbers match, everything is hunky dory. There are plenty of bodies in Mount Arlington if they really get desperate.

I'll pay for your one-way to Berma. I am sure you would love to help them out.

Posted by retnluvnit

I'll be glad to accept your money.

Of course ethanol is a boondoggle. This is petty compared to war-profiteer and Wall Street standards. Let's agree that government and the corporations are partners in crime.

We're not in a state of government by the people and for the people. That's a delusion.
The rich and powerful have always lived off and oppressed the masses since the beginning of civilization. The names change, but it's the same stratification.

Of course you would turn it into a diatribe against government. That's what you on all issues.

Collectively, they commit practically every capital crime imaginable on a scale so massive, it's wrecking the world economy and destroying lives by the millions. Their incompetence is beyond what any reasonable person should tolerate. And the sad part about it is that more they screw up, the more the gullible public keeps asking for more. That's the Bizarro world.

After the biofuel fiasco, if the Democrats get their way, they will make our energy problems worse. It's just an economic fact of life.

You need a serious reality check.

Duhhh! The topic was government. But if you want to discuss corporations, I've told you a thousand times that they are partners. You have the memory of a flea, Nulli.

""Americans are responding to the devastation wrought by the cyclone in Burma last week with an outpouring of support to U.S. charities and disaster relief groups, but geopolitics are complicating their efforts. Aid workers and supplies from some U.S. nonprofit groups are not being allowed into the country, and some of those charities said yesterday that they are refusing to funnel aid through the Burmese government. Instead of directing philanthropic dollars through the ruling junta government, some charities said, they are directly assisting relief agencies on the ground in Burma." (Washington Post, Thursday) "

Wondering how many were killed by the cyclone and how many killed by the Burmese government?

""Senate Democrats on Wednesday called for a temporary special tax on oil companies profits and a rollback of $17 billion in oil industry tax breaks as part of an energy package. The Democrats are also seeking federal penalties on energy price gouging and a suspension of oil deliveries into the governments emergency reserve." (New York Times, Thursday) "

How do the numbskull's in Washington deal with the high price of gasoline and energy dependence? Why they raise taxes. That guarantees we'll get less of it.

local government is the key to change....and we have the power to control our local government

How naive! I swear I live in a nation of children.

You get the government you pay for. That's why it costs more than you can afford.