Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Thursday, April 11, 2019

Can faith inform our search for an answer to the current immigration policy paralysis? For many, religious conviction and government policy are ethically independent of each other, as both play a unique role in society and our daily lives. While we may understand the role of the government to be separate, to an extent, from the role of the church, where is that intersection between government policy and the responsibility of the church in tricky areas such as immigration?

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Matthew 25 35-45.

#1 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-04-11 07:35 PM | Reply

John 3:16

#2 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2019-04-11 07:37 PM | Reply

"Help the poor and heal the sick"

Said no HMO, ever.

#3 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2019-04-11 07:39 PM | Reply

As long as Christians cease celebrating the Nativity, the flight from Egypt, stop reading and teaching about 'The Good Samaritan', stop pretending to point to the Corporeal Works of Mercy as religious tenets, stop teaching that god is love, stop reading the New Testament, they can avoid the title of Big ass hypocrites.

Donald Trump is the new King Harod. Evangelicals love him for it.

I guarantee you that ICE, at the behest of Trump, the modern King Harod, is literally ripping a baby Jesus from the arms of his mother Mary, every day, over and over.

The Christians who support Trump care not a whit.

Evangelical Trumpers are the new cruel Romans. They would crucify the lot of the asylum seekers if Trump told em to.

Trump is proudly guilty of all the 7 deadly sins. Evangelicals dig it. They vibrate on the same frequency as Donald Harod, and are proud of him for his embrace of sins against the poor and helpless.

What are the 7 deadly sins, you may ask. Here they are: envy, gluttony, greed or avarice, lust, pride, sloth, and wrath. He wears them like medals of honor.

Tell me which of these Trump would avoid.

Splain me why they love him for it.

#4 | Posted by oldwhiskeysour at 2019-04-11 07:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

Give it a rest. What christian faith?

Self-delusion.

#5 | Posted by fresno500 at 2019-04-11 08:26 PM | Reply

Our?

#6 | Posted by qcp at 2019-04-11 09:26 PM | Reply

it shouldn't.

But, the Republican Party has become the party of the evangelicals and whackos.

#7 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-04-11 09:59 PM | Reply

So do you agree with it, boaz?

Because your posts don't suggest you do.

#8 | Posted by jpw at 2019-04-11 11:48 PM | Reply

Wow... a "thoughts and prayers, but F you anyway" article.

Jesus was talking to some of the self-righteous hypocrite Jewish priests of his day, when a lawyer, who else, tried to trap him.... before you hear the story, know that the Samaritans were considered by the Jews to be the lowest scum on earth; the minority low-life immigrant poor of their society.

"And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"

So he answered and said, " ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and ‘your neighbor as yourself.' "

And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."
But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side.

But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.'

So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?"

And he said, "He who showed mercy on him."

Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

He might as well have slapped his audience in the face; shaming them that a lowly Samaritan was a more righteous man than they.

He answered the question of "who is my neighbor".... anyone in need.

And people who try to tell you that that only applies to how individuals treat individuals and couldn't possibly have anything to do with how their country treats it's citizens or anyone else.... is just another self-righteous hypocrite.

#9 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-11 11:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#9,

Corky,

I see where you are going with this, but Jesus was talking to the individual, he wasnt speaking to a nation state.

God's reason for coming down to earth was not to make us be nice to each other, it was to right a wrong HE did by creating us and subjecting us to sin. He came to save us from the wages of sin. I dont think he expected for Eve to be tempted by the devil, thus losing our immortality and shield from death because of sin. He realized this and said basically, "Since it's no fault of yours you will have to die because of sin, which you mostly cant control, I will come down to earth as a human, Christ, and die for you and take on your punishment myself.

Now the laws of taking are of each other, they are ok, but they are not a requirement to be saved. There is only ONE law we have to obey to be saved, and that is to BELIEVE that god took human form and came here to take on our punishments for sin. That's it. Mustard seed, remember?

Now in my personal life, I am charitable. I dont advertise it. I dont shout it from the roof tops. But I do have my own charities I give to all the time, including the church. Those deeds are not going to matter when I'm standing in front of God. All that's going to matter is have I confessed my sins and did I believe that Christ is lord and came down here to save me.

That I believe.

#10 | Posted by boaz at 2019-04-12 08:41 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

And BTW Corky, I want your opinion on something, because I do think you are a believer, trolling and partisanship aside.

I think there is something more out there dealing with God. God says he loves us. He created us just to worship and adore him. But something is making it so he cannot just save us himself, without having to die first. He cant just wave his hand and say "You are saved because I screwed up". He is being held to some law above him. Which leads me to surmise someone is holding law above God. There is another system in place that God is living in. He promised us if we believe in him we would be saved, but also, he said he would reveal this alternate world to us after death.

That's what I'm waiting for, that's what I want to see.

What do you think?

#11 | Posted by boaz at 2019-04-12 08:46 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

When Crisco White Buff Jesus returns he will have a Visa, and AR15, and loads of money

--- todays "Christian"

#12 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2019-04-12 11:14 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- to right a wrong HE did

Yeah, I don't know what crazed tradition taught you that, but it's not in the bible.

- he wasnt speaking to a nation state.

He was speaking to hypocritical Jews and applying it to everyone; including people in a democratic republic who wish to vote to have their government represent those same values.

- leads me to surmise someone is holding law above God

More absurdity, also not in the bible. God gave us free will; he didn't create programmable robots.

And he made no mistake, the Messiah is talked about throughout the OT, so there was no mistake, no change. It was always going to be this way.

#13 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-12 01:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

You misunderstand me Corky,

Of course everything isnt in the bible. God did create us. Now while Adam and Eve were in the garden, there was this thing going on about dying and sin. Adam and Eve just didnt know about it because God hadnt told them. The devil gave them some knowledge, told Eve she had ---- and told Adam what his dick could do, so now they are both sinning.

I dont think God intended for that to be happening.

#14 | Posted by boaz at 2019-04-12 01:43 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

- I dont think God intended for that to be happening.

He gave free will, and knew what would happen. He knew that no physical being could attain spiritual perfection, which is what the Law was meant to teach. Jesus said the law told you that to murder is to sin, but I tell you, he said, that if you think to murder, it is a sin.

So again, there is no perfection but the life that Jesus lived for us. That is the faith that is spoken of throughout; the faith that his life was a good enough substitute for ours. And that is faith; action based upon belief, not just belief itself. He also said that Lucifer believes, but is damned.

The things you are talking about sound like the early Christian apostasies of the first few centuries after Christ.

en.wikipedia.org

What you really need to do is read the letters of Paul, who wrote 2/3's of the NT, particularly Romans, written to Gentiles, and Hebrews, written by him or his aide to Jews.

And you should do it in the NKJ translation.

www.biblegateway.com

Because you are way far off the track.

#15 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-12 02:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- sinning.

Has a lot less to do with sex than a whole lot of other things. Sinning is "missing the mark"; in the Greek a military term that had to do with shooting an arrow at a target and missing. And it's more about having no faith and being very human; vanity, greed, sloth, jealousy, envy, gluttony, anger, and yes, lust... too much of any of which is just as big a miss as any of the others.

The idea is not that will-power is the way to achieve the target of spiritual perfection; that will never happen while in physical form; "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". The idea is that because of our faith, not just our belief, as Paul said, a small deposit of God's spirit is placed within us and that can, and will eventually if not here than over there, change us... and that not of ourselves... which is all in Paul's writings that to which I referred you.

As a Christian, btw, I have no obligation to preach to anyone, nor any Old Testament rules for myself or anyone else and no ability to judge anyone else. I do have the responsibility of living in faith and of answering in sincere questions... and I do mean only sincere ones.

#16 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-12 03:02 PM | Reply

#15,

Well, ok. I dont agree, but, ok..

Has a lot less to do with sex than a whole lot of other things.

Sex is just part of it, but it has alot to do with sin, because Adam and Eve didnt know about sin. You went way off the mark and you are misunderstanding me. And I dont know how to articulate what I'm saying right now.

But thanks anyway.

#17 | Posted by boaz at 2019-04-12 03:57 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#17

Let me know when you've read Romans and Hebrews through as the letters they are. Then you might have some good questions.

#18 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-12 04:21 PM | Reply

I had trouble following boaz's ramblings but do I surmise correctly that it's a gemisch of justifications and amateur theology with no basis in anything other than his desire to justify a very much non-Christian world view?

#19 | Posted by jpw at 2019-04-12 04:44 PM | Reply

#19 |

Like a lot of modern religion, it's perspective covered over by a couple of millennia of the manure of human traditions. otoh, none of it is new, much of it is reflected in the early apostasies I linked to.

You'll notice the emphasis on sex in the Garden and into modern times. It wasn't the Tree of the Knowledge of Sex they ate from in the story, it was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.... which would include but not be limited to the "seven deadlies" pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth.

And even then, those things are not evil in and of themselves. If one believes the story, God created humans and sex and all those things are very human. A little of any those things might actually be positive in some way when not done to an extreme of perversion.

What Paul said is that all things are available to us, but not all things are good on their own and he advised:

Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men.
1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

#20 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-12 05:33 PM | Reply

1. There are no such thing as "Christians", but there are zealots of ideologies that claim to be.

2. Faith in anything is dangerous, stupid and displays ignorance of the true Godly gifts such as critical evaluation.

3. Whichever language you interpret Biblical sections from has been cleansed of original meaning to fit a modernized multi-cultural perspective. Massive sums of copies were not made to express religious unity, but rather to probably survive independence from religion that was attempting to wipe out cultural differences, imo.

4. Christians do not seriously debate anything, but rely on specific persons for all of their knowledge, no questioning. I have never felt informed watching televised ministry.

Reciting complex passages without any concept of their true meaning is like much of the education system.

In fact, the "Christ" is a ceremony cleansing the body, mind and spirit for communion.

The church should never have existed and does disservice through it's compounding of separatist ideals. The military has become a second church, enforcing Christianity at the point of a gun. The government has nothing of value to God.

#21 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2019-04-12 09:29 PM | Reply

Right right Now continue to take what is not yours.

But hey. I'm christian.

#22 | Posted by fresno500 at 2019-04-13 07:52 AM | Reply

"Now the laws of taking are of each other, they are ok, but they are not a requirement to be saved. There is only ONE law we have to obey to be saved, and that is to BELIEVE that god took human form and came here to take on our punishments for sin."

That solves the mystery. Boaz is a Mormon. A cultist fool. Denies the need that Christ spoke of yet pretends to still be a Christian. He's not one.

"I have never felt informed watching televised ministry."

You're surprised that those thieves really just want your money? I watch Meet the Press which is followed by JOel Moneygrubber, I can't change the channel fast enough.

#23 | Posted by danni at 2019-04-13 09:36 AM | Reply

The church should never have existed

If you follow the history of mans development, it had to exist to get where we are.

Its still needed but most, but as you can see by the posters on this thread, and many on the DR, they are hypocrites in practice, and zealots in its belief.

We are on our own journey.

#24 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-04-13 09:57 AM | Reply

- 3. Whichever language you interpret Biblical sections from has been cleansed of original meaning to fit a modernized multi-cultural perspective.

The ancient Hebrew of the OT is a bit like English, and is related to Aramaic; one word can have many different meanings depending on context and history; the word "post" for example could be, as in Eng, a mail, a fence post, a cereal brand, or something you do on a blog.

The ancient Greek of the NT, the Koine Greek, is much more precise; each of those meanings would have it's own word. And, as opposed to the Classical Greek, it died out not long after the NT was written, so the meanings of the words never evolved.

The church to which I belong possesses what is as far as we know the largest collection of ancient bibles and their related manuscripts and fragments extant in private hands, not in a museum.

The original meaning of the teachings in the NT, and the oldest versions of what is actually included, is therefore not so difficult to discern.

The real problem, not withstanding many translation errors and omissions or additions in the most used bibles like the KJV (the NKJV is much more precise)... the real problem is with people hearing from the reading what they want to hear, and disregarding the rest (apologies to Paul Simon).

#25 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-13 12:03 PM | Reply

The problem with mixing religion and politics is neither function fully and both become compromised.

That's why separating church and state is a reasonable idea.

If people attempt to tell Christians they should have a particular view on an issue because they are Christian, shouldn't Christians also use their beliefs to impose their values on other issues such as abortion?

Personally, I've come to accept that my views as an American and my views as a Christian can not reconcile.

And atheists need to accept that as well and stop trying to manipulate Christians using verses cherry picked out of the Bible.

#26 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-04-13 01:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Andrea,

"they are hypocrites in practice"

The irony of hypocrisy is you have to believe in something to be a hypocrite.

#27 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-04-13 01:34 PM | Reply

Tu quoque remains a litmus test to separate the men from the boys, intellectually speaking.

#28 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-04-13 01:35 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- my views as an American and my views as a Christian can not reconcile.

Say what?

Paul was a Roman citizen, a Jew, and a Christian. He spent a lot of time in prisons when his the rules of his citizenship conflicted with his religion.

#29 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-13 02:38 PM | Reply

Corky,

"He spent a lot of time in prisons when his the rules of his citizenship conflicted with his religion."

Then you just proved my point what can happen with conflicting beliefs.

#30 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-04-13 04:16 PM | Reply

Corky,

Paul going to prison didn't reconcile the conflict among Jews, Romans and Christians.

He simply became a martyr and most people do not feel that sort of calling.

I accept the fact religion and politics conflict so for me there's no problem.

America is a nation of conflicting messages and the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can live together in peace.

#31 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-04-13 04:31 PM | Reply

We're supposed to crucify immigrants? Okay, fine, whatever. I don't get Christians, but I do live with them. And they turn a blind eye now when I sacrifice their pets, so I'm good.

#32 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2019-04-13 05:03 PM | Reply

"I accept the fact religion and politics conflict so for me there's no problem."

Of course.

Right and wrong is never a problem, when you check your morals at the door.

#33 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-04-13 05:08 PM | Reply

So, William, help me out here. Specifically what irreconcilable conflicts do you have between your views as an American and your views as a Christian?

Is not the informing of your political views by your religious views the more relevant transaction?

#34 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-13 05:22 PM | Reply

Watching Corky and Boaz debate religion is alternately revolting and hilarious.

#35 | Posted by Angrydad at 2019-04-13 05:45 PM | Reply

We're supposed to crucify immigrants?

#32 | Posted by HeliumRat

Who said that rat?

#36 | Posted by Sniper at 2019-04-13 07:19 PM | Reply

"The irony of hypocrisy is you have to believe in something to be a hypocrite.

POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON AT 2019-04-13 01:34 PM | REPLY"

Correct. Which is why Trump cannot be a hypocrite.

#37 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2019-04-13 07:22 PM | Reply

Does it say anywhere in the bible that we have to give them our home?

Just exactly how many imigrants, legal and illegal do we have to take every year? 1n=m? 10m? 100m? mow many? There are 7 b people in the world. Should we take half? Maybe 80%. Would that make you libs happy?

#38 | Posted by Sniper at 2019-04-13 07:22 PM | Reply

theconversation.com

The stranger is Jesus in disguise
Within the New Testament, which Christians read in continuity with the Hebrew Bible or "The Old Testament," the most often cited passage dealing with welcoming the stranger is from Matthew 25: 31-40.

This section speaks of the Final Judgment, when the righteous will be granted paradise and unrepentant sinners will be consigned to eternal fire. Christ says to those at his right hand that they are "blessed" because

"I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me."

The righteous then ask,

"When did we see you, a stranger, and welcome you?"

Christ replies,

"‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'"

As Matthew 25 makes clear, the Christians should see everyone as "Christ" in the flesh. Indeed, scholars argue that in the New Testament, "stranger" and "neighbor" are in fact synonymous. Thus the Golden Rule, "love your neighbor as yourself," refers not just to people whom you know – your "neighbors" in a conventional sense – but also to people whom you do not know.

Beyond this, in the letters written by Paul of Tarsus (one of the most notable of early Christian missionaries), often known as the Pauline "Epistles," it is made clear that in Christ,

#39 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-04-13 07:32 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Laura,

So...how many immigrants do you have living with you?

#40 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-04-13 09:24 PM | Reply

So...how many immigrants do you have living with you?

#40 | Posted by BillJohnson

What a stupid, irrelevant question.

Most Chreestians don't even bother to try to be Christ like. It's all a facade that's meant to convince themselves as much as anyone else that they're not horrible, self-absorbed --------.

#41 | Posted by jpw at 2019-04-13 10:34 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"And atheists need to accept that as well and stop trying to manipulate Christians using verses cherry picked out of the Bible."

Corky is not an atheist. I don't think Laura is either.

#42 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-04-13 10:39 PM | Reply

I think William, er, Bill is ignoring my question in 34.

It sounded like his political opinion may be more important than his religious beliefs... which appears to be true of a lot of rwing religionists. Correct me if I'm wrong.

#43 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-13 10:52 PM | Reply

#35 | POSTED BY ANGRYDAD

Yes, but what does MadMom think?

#44 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-13 10:53 PM | Reply

1 Corinthians 13:1 "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

There are lots of noisy gongs and clanging cymbals who think they are good Christians but who are merely making one helluva racket.

#45 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-04-13 10:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#45

People have substituted their church traditions for the context required to understand the NT.

That verse, Gal, is one example in Paul's letters of him having to correct early churches he had established in pagan cities. Some in REALLY pagan cities like Corinth where the Temples of Aphrodite and Apollo reigned supreme.

They were more interested in the gifts of the spirit, and like some modern Christians, thought tongue talking was the only true sign of belief.... when really he listed it last among the signs. Many also maintained their habit of frequenting the paid temple prostitutes... which is where his admonishments about same sex encounters came from... paying for sex no matter which sex was always considered a demeaning to the person getting paid... and some may well have participated in living sacrifices.

Poor guy wrote some letters 2,000 years ago about particular problems in certain churches... like telling some of the mouthy women in one to stfu... and now, completely out of context, women are second class citizens in some churches.


en.wikipedia.org

en.wikipedia.org

#46 | Posted by Corky at 2019-04-13 11:16 PM | Reply

"That verse, Gal, is one example in Paul's letters of him having to correct early churches he had established in pagan cities... .
They were more interested in the gifts of the spirit, and like some modern Christians, thought tongue talking was the only true sign of belief.... when really he listed it last among the signs."

Ah, that makes sense. I missed that nuance.

#47 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-04-13 11:45 PM | Reply

Corky,

Ok...I'll bite.

Abortion...

I believe it is killing a human being and most are performed because women are irresponsible with their reproduction rights but it is a necessary evil.

#48 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-04-14 06:22 PM | Reply

What I find interesting about Laura's post is how liberals love to drag out Biblical verses to make a point and support their beliefs and judge others but they have a fit when Christians do the same.

#49 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-04-14 06:40 PM | Reply

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