Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, March 17, 2019

Average weekly earnings for non-managers are now $779, which is an almost 40-year high. Millions of those now approaching retirement age spent their entire lives earning the equivalent of $40,000 a year, at most. Little surprise they don't have six-figure retirement savings. The simple fact of the matter is, it takes enormous discipline to save even 6% for your 401(k) at that income level. In a country of 330+ million people, shockingly few have enough retirement savings to support the stereotypical leisurely golden years. Commodity king Dennis Gartman shared some disturbing numbers last week.

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[T]he average balance in 401(k)s, 403(b)s, or IRAs fell to $95,600 at the end of last year from $104,300 at the end of the 3rd quarter for 401(k)s, to $78,700 from $85,100 for 403(b)s and to $98,400 from $106,300 for IRA balances. It was not the drops in value that caught our attention; it is the fact that the averages are only at or near $100,000, forcing us to wonder what sort of retirement can the average retiree look forward to with this minimal sum of money set aside? Is that all there is? Really? Is that really all there is? If so, we are in very real trouble.

The average IRA balance is not necessarily indicative of retirement savings generally, as many other vehicles exist, but it's probably a good proxy.

And an average of around $100,000 won't add much to the mere monthly Social Security benefits. That is not enough for even a minimal retirement.

Comments

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I retired at 55. And I have not touched my FRS (Can't until I'm 62). I don't collect social security (Can't until 65). I live comfortably on various investments from over the years and use money markets not traditional checking/savings accounts. My parents did an excellent job teaching my sisters and I the value of saving and investing. To not buy what we couldn't afford. If you used a credit card make sure it was paid in full each month. I own my car and condo free and clear. It can be done.

#1 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-17 05:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I retired at 55." - #1 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-17 05:25 PM

At a point in your life where private health insurance is at its most expensive.

Idiocracy.

"My parents did an excellent job ..."

All that you are you owe to your parents. Why don't you send them a penny and square the account?

#2 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-17 05:32 PM | Reply

Problem is so many are not fiscally savvy. Even at my wife's work where there is a 401k, so many of the workers will not contribute to the 401k plan even with her informing them about the employer match and the tax advantage. Too many people are not taught at home of school about fiscal responsibility, so it is not until many years later then start thinking about saving/investing for retirement, missing out on one of the most important factors - the time factor for growth of wealth.

#3 | Posted by MSgt at 2019-03-17 06:07 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Problem is so many are not fiscally savvy."

That's not a problem, that's what makes our business model successful!
Signed,
Short-Term Lenders Association of America
State Lottery Agencies of America
Payment Processing Service Providers of America

#4 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-17 06:28 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#2 I have great insurance, not ACA. Other then you just being an angry little hateful person why would you pretend to know the relationship with my parents?

#5 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-17 06:39 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#3 Exactly. Today they are taught to depend on others for everything from food, rent, college, healthcare, etc.

#6 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-17 06:40 PM | Reply

-why would you pretend to know the relationship with my parents?

Good question. I'd like him to answer. Many here will hit you over jealousy and nothing more.

#7 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-17 06:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Good question.

#7 | POSTED BY EBERLY AT 2019-03-17 06:43 PM | FLAG:

No it's not you dummy. She is going on and on about how her family structure set her up to be a genius and then questions about it are not allowed?

This is why Trump is in charge and you think it's time to slink back out of the shadows.

#8 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-03-17 08:29 PM | Reply

"Today they are taught to depend on others for everything from food, rent, college, healthcare, etc."

Thanks, Capitalism!
EBT makes it easier for stores to accept food stamps, for example.
Poor people didn't demand it. The stores and the payment processors wanted it. Fast food restaurants can take EBT in some places, more sales, more profit.

I agree, they are being taught to depend.
Look at who's doing the teaching. Look who's making money off dependency. People like that creepy guy at Fox News who owns a bunch of Section 8 housing.

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-17 08:39 PM | Reply

The link from the article was interesting, but completely unrealistic. According to that link, most Americans will need one million---ONE MILLION-- insets in order to retire at a middle class level. But we already know 40% or so don't even have $5000 on cat IN HAND. It would seem then that the top 2-3% only can "afford" to retire.
...
A better solution, begin to live more cheaply during the last ten years before retirement so you ramp down your luxuries.

#10 | Posted by e1g1 at 2019-03-17 08:40 PM | Reply

cat = cash, sorry

#11 | Posted by e1g1 at 2019-03-17 08:40 PM | Reply

#8 There is no way in hell you are a teacher when reading comprehension fails you. Unless you are a tenured liberal teacher where failure at reading comprehension is covered.

#12 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-17 08:48 PM | Reply

Problem is so many are not fiscally savvy. Even at my wife's work where there is a 401k, so many of the workers will not contribute to the 401k plan even with her informing them about the employer match and the tax advantage. Too many people are not taught at home of school about fiscal responsibility, so it is not until many years later then start thinking about saving/investing for retirement, missing out on one of the most important factors - the time factor for growth of wealth.

#3 | POSTED BY MSGT AT 2019-03-17 06:07 PM | FLAG:

Can't argue with a word of that. But what do we do to change it?

#13 | Posted by cbob at 2019-03-17 09:15 PM | Reply

But what do we do to change it?
#13 | POSTED BY CBOB

Take a gander at any college catalog, or high school elective classes.

With all the money we spend on education, we don't educate people to live.

From simple retirement finance, buying food, having kids, cooking, relationships, and running a household. All that money spent on getting in debt for an education, that quite literally doesn't help you improve your lot in life.

This is why Snoofy still lives at home. He just can't do it.

#14 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 09:39 PM | Reply

"#2 I have great insurance, not ACA." - #5 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-17 06:39 PM

Didn't say ACA, you ignorant fool.

And your "great insurance" costs a retired person between 55 and 65, where private health insurance is at its most expensive, an arm and a leg.

Idiocracy.

"...why would you pretend to know the relationship with my parents?"

So you can't even afford the penny I suggested.

That's what the idiocracy of retiring when private health insurance is at its most expensive will get you.

#15 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-17 10:00 PM | Reply

-This is why Trump is in charge and you think it's time to slink back out of the shadows.

I don't follow.

#16 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-17 10:01 PM | Reply

-And your "great insurance" costs a retired person between 55 and 65, where private health insurance is at its most expensive, an arm and a leg.

So?

#17 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-17 10:05 PM | Reply

"Good question. I'd like him to answer." - #7 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-17 06:43 PM

Apparently, the obvious insult...

All that you are you owe to your parents. Why don't you send them a penny and square the account?
...is too complicated for some.

Even for Eberly, who is usually quick to pick up on such things.

#18 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-17 10:06 PM | Reply

"So?" - #17 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-17 10:05 PM

Someone who claims that they "live comfortably on various investments from over the years", after retiring 10 years before Medicare, is paying an arm and a leg for private health insurance.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

And her reference to FRS seems to indicate that she's retired from the Florida Retirement System.

After DROP, anyone worth anything to their former employer could have easily been rehired after the obligatory 6 months off...

...and had their health insurance almost completely subsidized until they reached Medicare age.

Why would anyone who professes to know "the value of saving and investing" shovel a ton of their well-earned retirement savings to private health insurers from 55 to 65 years of age?

#19 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-17 10:14 PM | Reply

19

I know people who are able to do it.

Yes, it's expensive.

#20 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-17 10:21 PM | Reply

I don't understand the animosity towards the comment in 1.

Nevermind. I don't pay much attention to her posts. Some of you guys do.

I'm out.......

#21 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-17 10:26 PM | Reply

"I know people who are able to do it." - #20 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-17 10:21 PM

Of course they can do it.

But the question is, why, if it isn't necessary?

Especially, as I outlined in my #19, there's a clear path to having their health insurance almost completely subsidized until they reach Medicare age.

"Yes, it's expensive."

Yep.

Which is exactly why I am not shoveling a ton of money to private health insurers even though I've passed the 62 years of age mentioned in #1, but haven't quite yet hit Medicare age.

#22 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-17 10:28 PM | Reply

"I don't understand the animosity towards the comment in 1." - #21 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-17 10:26 PM

My #2 wasn't animosity.

My #2 was ridiculing the self-righteous stupidity of #1.

"I don't pay much attention to her posts."

Excellent point, Eb.

"I'm out......."

Have an excellent evening, my friend.

#23 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-17 10:31 PM | Reply

$100/month saved and invested at 12% for 40 years is $1.1 million.

Drop cable and the car payment and let's do this!

#24 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2019-03-18 01:11 AM | Reply

#8... reading comprehension fails you..... e failure at reading comprehension is covered.

#12 | POSTED BY GRACIEAMAZED AT 2019-03-17 08:48 PM | FLAG:

My parents did an excellent job teaching....

#1 | POSTED BY GRACIEAMAZED AT 2019-03-17 05:25 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Ooops. GracieSkidMarks again. How embarrassing.

#25 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-03-18 01:35 AM | Reply

$100/month saved and invested at 12% for 40 years is $1.1 million.
Drop cable and the car payment and let's do this!

#24 | POSTED BY DRIVELIKEJEHU

Yeah, let's all forgo a middle-class life when we're younger just so we don't fall into poverty when we're old. And what happens to an economy that is 70% consumption when we do that? Less spending = fewer jobs.

#26 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-03-18 05:31 AM | Reply

" I have great insurance, not ACA."

You have some great insurance not ACA? Realize the ACA forces your "great insurance" to cover you without regard to preexisting conditions, gender, and caps the profits of the insurance company. So, your "great insurance" is still ACA even if you don't get a subsidy to pay for it.

#27 | Posted by danni at 2019-03-18 07:27 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

WHODAMAN @ #26

Yeah, and don't end your kids to college either. There are still a lot of burgers to flip and ditches to dig. That's how vicious circles start.

And about that 12% ~ where did that number come from? One of the first things I told my clients when I was in the biz ~ "If it sounds too good to be true, guess what? It IS too good to be true."

#28 | Posted by Twinpac at 2019-03-18 07:57 AM | Reply

What a miserable group of envious, hateful, think they know it all, little people. I'm retired, happy, debt free and have not touched my retirement money or drawn S.S. I'll pity you while I'm at the pool today.

#29 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-18 08:16 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#29

"I'm alright, Jack. ---- you!"

#30 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-03-18 08:41 AM | Reply

"Society" is not some liberal made-up fantasy. It's a real thing upon which all civilization is based. It has needs, as do individuals.

Objectivists, take note.

#31 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-03-18 08:44 AM | Reply

Just one more tax cut for the 1% and this problem will be magically fixed.

#32 | Posted by Nixon at 2019-03-18 09:41 AM | Reply

$100/month saved and invested at 12% for 40 years is $1.1 million.
Drop cable and the car payment and let's do this!

#24 | POSTED BY DRIVELIKEJEHU

Who drives a car that only cots $100 a month? 1987?

#33 | Posted by Nixon at 2019-03-18 09:43 AM | Reply

cat = cash, sorry

#11 | POSTED BY E1G1

I just assumed that you were saying we should invest in cats to live off of in retirement...

Mrs. Mooney has a pie shop.
Does a business, but I notice something weird.
Lately, all her neighbors cats have disappeared.
Have to hand it to her!
What I calls,
enterprise!
Poppin' ------- into pies!
Wouldn't do in my shop!
Just the thought of it's enough to make you sick!
And I'm telling you them pussycats is quick.

#34 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-03-18 09:46 AM | Reply

I find it interesting that here in the DR how many people who worked in some profession that was paid for in large part... if not totally by tax dollars... indicating that their retirement plans were also funded with tax dollars. All too often those same people will whine and scream about paying taxes... because they think someone else is getting something and how unfair it is... and blah blah blah.
It really comes off as comes off as bratty or sanctimonious... especially when they retire and are no longer actively contributing to the work force... while living off an income provided by taxed dollars. You may be a really nice person... kind generous et al... but it does sound weird to those who've lived outside that income bubble.
Personally I've always worked in the private sector... I've done okay over the years...I've earned my pay doing what most people wait until they retire to do... had a good time doing it especially because I was young with lots of energy... I have no complaints about my life... I raised two children and countless pets without public assistance... never married so received zilch in any sort of spousal benefits.
I've bought and sold 5 homes over the course of my adult life the last 3 I owned free and clear... usually had more than one stream of income... and I'm not afraid of power tools and paint brushes. I have endured several bouts of feast and famine... self employed... worked for others... learned a few hustles along the way... thus far I have avoided food kitchens or bankruptcy... currently my assets are significantly larger than my debts.

I've learned that you never can tell what tomorrow brings. Some people start out in the dugout, some on bases 1.2.or 3 ... lucky them... as for me... I wasn't even in game let alone on the team... I know how difficult it is to even get to play.

#35 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2019-03-18 10:24 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

What a miserable group of envious, hateful, think they know it all, little people.

It was either learn HTML tags or plan for retirement.

#36 | Posted by Ben_Berkkake at 2019-03-18 10:35 AM | Reply

#29 | POSTED BY GRACIEAMAZED

They don't have the discipline, just look at the comments.

#37 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-18 10:56 AM | Reply

I retired at 55. And I have not touched my FRS

It's funny how many "small government conservatives" here are current or former government employees themselves. Classic "i've got mine, ---- everyone else" mentality.

#38 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-18 11:05 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

A better solution, begin to live more cheaply during the last ten years before retirement so you ramp down your luxuries.

#10 | POSTED BY E1G1

Or you live more cheaply from the start and you can build up savings so that you can retire earlier.

It all depends on what your priorities are.

Though I make more than $40k so I cannot speak towards the ease or difficulty of doing it at that income level.

But between my wife's income and mine we put about 1/4 to 1/3 of our total (pretax) income towards our different retirement accounts.

It just depends upon your priorities. My goal is to be "financially independent", which means that I have enough passive income coming in to survive without my day job. The purpose is that without being constrained by "needing the money" I can work when and on what I WANT to. And it becomes a lot more enjoyable to work when you don't "have to" to make ends meet. I am willing to give up new cars, expensive vacations, going to the movies, cable, and other things to reach that goal.

#39 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-03-18 11:14 AM | Reply

38

Not sure what point you are making. Are govt employees supposed to be lefties? If they cash a paycheck from the govt, they aren't allowed to be conservative minded?

How does a salaried worker, who believes they earn their paycheck, benefits, etc from the govt, just come to the conclusion they are different from their friend, who works for a private employer?

#40 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-18 11:15 AM | Reply

Not sure what point you are making.

No surprise there.

The point was that people loike Gracie regularly show up in threads about reduction in government employee rights, salaries, benefits, etc and trash those employees as lazy grifters. And then later on it turns out they worked for government in its heyday when it provided top tier pensions and retiree healthcare.

#41 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-18 11:19 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

41

Fair enough. IOW she is a hypocrite.

#42 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-18 11:30 AM | Reply

It can be done.

#1 | POSTED BY GRACIEAMAZED

So glad you are happy with your retirement. Gawd Bless the Child what got its own.

Now that you are secure in your future situation are you ready to level up?

Now that you have yours are you going to help others not so fortunate or are you going to turn away from the suffering of others not so fortunate? Like so many before you?

First comes independence. Then comes Interdependence. You have your independence! Good on ya! Gratz!

Now you are ready to Mature and become Interdependent with and help improve the General Welfare of your fellow Man?

#43 | Posted by donnerboy at 2019-03-18 11:46 AM | Reply

Problem is....... most have no clue how to save any money at all.

#44 | Posted by Sniper at 2019-03-18 11:55 AM | Reply

"I find it interesting that here in the DR how many people who worked in some profession that was paid for in large part... if not totally by tax dollars... indicating that their retirement plans were also funded with tax dollars. All too often those same people will whine and scream about paying taxes... because they think someone else is getting something and how unfair it is... and blah blah blah."

Your assumptive pretense is incorrect, which is why your statement isn't logical. Not one person on the Right I've ever spoken to has cared about paying for people who have earned it. The issue is giving tax money to those who haven't earned it by choice. But, as typical partisan haters do, you create your own debate without truly understanding the other side.

#45 | Posted by humtake at 2019-03-18 12:28 PM | Reply

Not one person on the Right I've ever spoken to has cared about paying for people who have earned it.

Yep, that's why Republicans are constantly trying to diminish public employee salaries, benefits, unionization rights, etc.

Get a grip.

#46 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-18 01:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The issue is giving tax money to those who haven't earned it by choice. But, as typical partisan haters do, you create your own debate without truly understanding the other side.

#45 | Posted by humtake

The propaganda that says poor people are all poor by choice comes from billionaires. Why do you work for them for free?

#47 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-18 01:36 PM | Reply

Yeah that's it. Nothing to do with the fact that housing, healthcare, child raising, and education cost vastly more than they did a few decades ago because of billionaires rigging the game.

#48 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-18 01:37 PM | Reply

#41 You know what I love about this place? All the ------ making assumptions. I am a retired hospitality manager and have my own 401K among other investments that worked out very well for me. My state retirement is 50% of my ex husbands that I got in the divorce along with other things. He paid into the system the maximum he could over the years and the words of my attorney as she smiled was 'thank heavens he was a saver of money'.

#49 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-18 01:58 PM | Reply

#41 You know what I love about this place? All the ------ making assumptions. I am a retired hospitality manager and have my own 401K among other investments that worked out very well for me. My state retirement is 50% of my ex husbands that I got in the divorce along with other things. He paid into the system the maximum he could over the years and the words of my attorney as she smiled was 'thank heavens he was a saver of money'.

#49 | Posted by gracieamazed

It's not an assumption that you lived during a time when life was more affordable. So before you pat yourself on the back for saving so much more than people save today, imagine what your life would have been like if you had to pay what they currently have to pay.

#50 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-18 02:01 PM | Reply

"My state retirement is 50% of my ex husbands that I got in the divorce along with other things." - #49 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-18 01:58 PM

Screwing someone you supposedly loved.

Is that more of the excellent job your parents did teaching you?

Explains much.

#51 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-18 02:02 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

The propaganda that says poor people are all poor by choice comes from billionaires. Why do you work for them for free?

#47 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2019-03-18 01:36 PM | FLAG: I guess you missed the thread title which is about 'Average Americans', whereas dealing specifically with the poor is a whole other subject, unless you think the average Americans are the poor.

#52 | Posted by MSgt at 2019-03-18 02:05 PM | Reply

I'm not going to deride anyone's chosen profession, but there are some that pay better. Choose wisely.

247wallst.com

#53 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2019-03-18 02:20 PM | Reply

If the 'Average American' purchased and followed Dave Ramsey's book: The Total Money Makeover: Classic Edition: A Proven Plan for Financial Fitness, and followed its advice they would be in much better fiscal advice. I purchased it for my son and three step sons [earlier printing in 2006]. My son and one of our step sons chose to heed his advice, used his plan, are in great fiscal shape nowadays; the other two paid no attention and are not is as good position fiscally [you can lead a horse.....]

Highly recommend as I know his plan works.

#54 | Posted by MSgt at 2019-03-18 02:21 PM | Reply

My state retirement is 50% of my ex husbands that I got in the divorce along with other things.

So you're going to collect a government check that you didn't even work for? My god, you're an even bigger hypocrite than i thought.

#55 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-18 02:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

I'm not going to deride anyone's chosen profession, but there are some that pay better. Choose wisely.

247wallst.com

#53 | Posted by MUSTANG

And what happens if everyone chooses only high paying professions?

#56 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-18 03:33 PM | Reply

56 - You can choose a profession, but can you pass the classes? Many want a STEM paycheck but can't get past Calc I.

#57 | Posted by homerj at 2019-03-18 03:45 PM | Reply

Not one person on the Right I've ever spoken to has cared about paying for people who have earned it. The issue is giving tax money to those who haven't earned it by choice. But, as typical partisan haters do, you create your own debate without truly understanding the other side.

#45 | POSTED BY HUMTAKE AT 2019-03-18 12:28 PM | REPLY | FLAG:PPPPFFFTTTTT!!!

So all those people who work one or two low wage jobs and still you and your sanctimonious ilk are among those who railed against health care for all... and want the discussion it to go away
Don't get me started on the SS is a Ponzi scheme crappola I read here... break out the fainting couches if anyone talking about increasing the minimum wage

Those who worked on the tax payer dime usually have a union representing them giving them medical benefits... and retirement plans... and a living wage... private sector not so much.

Actually the only thing I am a "hater" about is how you can't see the larger picture... you think earning a living only about the pay check. It floors me you are that short sighted.

Two thoughts for you...
Stop dumping stupid tunnel visioned b.s. on everyone... especially me.
and Skru-U

#58 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2019-03-18 03:48 PM | Reply

56 - You can choose a profession, but can you pass the classes? Many want a STEM paycheck but can't get past Calc I.

#57 | Posted by homerj

So you just go into banking and learn how to screw people for a living.

#59 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-18 04:01 PM | Reply

Not one person on the Right I've ever spoken to has cared about paying for people who have earned it. The issue is giving tax money to those who haven't earned it by choice. But, as typical partisan haters do, you create your own debate without truly understanding the other side.

#45 | Posted by humtake

Liar. Recent history proves you wrong. See Humpy's Repeal and Replace of No Health Care scam (that failed).

See the Humpy Tax Scam Bill that gave my tax money to people who did not deserve it (succeeded).

Attempts to gut Social Security and Medicare. Both benefits which have been "earned" by most of those who receive it.

"you create your own debate without..." quit projecting your victimization by Fox News and their Minions.

Fox News exists to "create fake debates" every day for Humpy the Pig to gorge on.

Nuff said.

#60 | Posted by donnerboy at 2019-03-18 04:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"$100/month saved and invested at 12% for 40 years is $1.1 million."

Sign me up!
Seriously, who's offering 12% for 40 years? Nobody.
According to this link, from Feb 1979 to Feb 2019, with dividend reinvestment and adjusted for inflation, the S&P 500 annual yield is 8.1%.
dqydj.com

#61 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-18 04:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

They don't have the discipline, just look at the comments.

#37 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS AT 2019-03-18 10:56 AM | REPLY | FLAG pppffftttt

MACKERELASS... You have no way of knowing that... and your snark represents the prevailing attitude that creates so much national discontent.
Why not just say that about the losers in the mid west whose lives were economically devastated maybe even help family members out too. When they finally found a job it was/is at a lower pay-scale... and their savings depleted... especially older workers. I know that I am grateful for every day that it isn't me.

Tunnel vision is what you have... you don't seem to see the larger picture or the combination of factors that lead up to how things are the way they are... and for the most part you express no concern about those for whom this is a reality. No it is just another opportunity for you to go into one ups man ship.

May you always find a lugey in your burger and feces in your fries.

#62 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2019-03-18 04:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Seriously, who's offering 12% for 40 years?
#61 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Student loan recipients to Sallie Mae.

#63 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2019-03-18 04:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#34:
Nice Sondheim reference. That entire composition is amazing.

#64 | Posted by e1g1 at 2019-03-18 08:26 PM | Reply

"So you just go into banking and learn how to screw people for a living."

Or vote for Democratic Socialists and screw them that way.

#65 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-18 09:19 PM | Reply

This whole thread is a load of crap. At $779 a week, you're earning over $40k a year, which puts you solidly in the top 1% of global income earners. So what about the other 99%?

"I agree, they are being taught to depend. Look at who's doing the teaching."

It's Bernie. It's Cortez. It's people who want to rule this country, and correctly understand that this goal is best achieved by making society dependent on the government. Or at least enough of society to ensure you have enough votes to win when it matters.

#66 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-18 09:22 PM | Reply

"At $779 a week, you're earning over $40k a year, which puts you solidly in the top 1% of global income earners."

That's meaningless because our retirement costs, like our earnings, aren't global, they're local.

#67 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-18 09:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"I agree, they are being taught to depend. Look at who's doing the teaching.

It's Bernie. It's Cortez."

Nonsense.

Sanders and AOC aren't the ones who taught poor people how to use a EBT card.

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-18 09:29 PM | Reply

"That's meaningless because our retirement costs, like our earnings, aren't global, they're local."

The US is not one locale. There are places in the US I could never afford to retire on my pension. There are other places where I would be one of the richest folks in town. All with the same income. Maybe what you really mean is you can't retire in a location you want while still earning enough to provide the lavish standard of living you fell entitled to.

"Sanders and AOC aren't the ones who taught poor people how to use a EBT card."

----. Sanders as AOC are upping the game. EBT for healthcare, college, and in the case of AOC, just free money. And not just for the poor. The rich have an obligation to provide a much greater segment of society a high standard of living, for little more than the ability to draw breath. And they owe the taxpayers nothing in return, of course.

#69 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-18 10:05 PM | Reply

The US is not one locale.

Nobody said it was, -------. Go back and read your own drivel that was being responded to.

#70 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-18 10:12 PM | Reply

"Maybe what you really mean is you can't retire in a location you want while still earning enough to provide the lavish standard of living you fell entitled to."

Only if by "lavish standard of living" you mean globally, and when adjusted for location in America becomes "current or even somewhat diminished current standard of living."

#71 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-18 11:38 PM | Reply

"which puts you solidly in the top 1% of global income earners."

I'll take "Meaningless Barometers for $800", Alex.

#72 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-03-19 12:05 AM | Reply

"And they owe the taxpayers nothing in return, of course."

Proving once again, nothing pisses off Republicans more than when Democrats try to act like them.

#73 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-03-19 12:07 AM | Reply

"And they owe the taxpayers nothing in return, of course."

Who does owe the taxpayers anything?

Is there a system of patronage I am unaware of?

Your complaints about the poor apply to the rich, but are never levied against them.

I'm surprised it doesn't grow tiresome for you.

#74 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-19 01:45 AM | Reply

#3 Exactly. Today they are taught to depend on others for everything from food, rent, college, healthcare, etc.
#6 | POSTED BY GRACIEAMAZED AT 2019-03-17 06:40 PM

I really liked your first post - who shouldn't be a little jelly of such successful finances.

This follow-up however does give me problems - you are talking out your ass. How many mininum wage jobs does it take to keep an apartment, a bus pass, food and school, no phone, internet or television service? Leaving out anything else, just those aspects in a state that fires at will means that it doesn't matter what kind of education you have. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is how your finances will be effected. How will you scramble to find another job in time to pay rent? Time is expensive..

Relying on others is very real in a world that is designed to take and take and take financially, impacting all future decisions.

Your parents taught you something valuable, but it's obvious they missed a sense of humility.

#75 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2019-03-19 08:02 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

This whole thread is a load of crap. At $779 a week, you're earning over $40k a year, which puts you solidly in the top 1% of global income earners. So what about the other 99%?
"I agree, they are being taught to depend. Look at who's doing the teaching."
It's Bernie. It's Cortez. It's people who want to rule this country, and correctly understand that this goal is best achieved by making society dependent on the government. Or at least enough of society to ensure you have enough votes to win when it matters.
#66 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER AT 2019-03-18 09:22 PM

Patently insane, and utter propaganda. What the *$& are you?

Taught to depend with a cudgel.

#76 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2019-03-19 08:08 AM | Reply

How many mininum wage jobs does it take to keep an apartment, a bus pass, food and school, no phone, internet or television service? Leaving out anything else, just those aspects in a state that fires at will means that it doesn't matter what kind of education you have. It doesn't matter

The "right" doesn't care about any of that. They will say "hurrrrrr durrr, just move, not my problem."

#77 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-19 08:28 AM | Reply

-The simple fact of the matter is, it takes enormous discipline to save even 6% for your 401(k) at that income level

for some, yes. Many, I suppose.

My brother in law is just like this (my sister passed away last year). they earned less than $40K most of their lives...approaching retirement...and they don't have enough.

He'll have to work a while longer so he can delay his SS until he is almost 70.

But I watched them squander money their whole lives.

we aren't going to solve this by paying low wage folks more.

#78 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-19 08:35 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Dave Ramsey says $100 invested at 12% interested yields $1,100,000+ in 30 years.

Which part of the above equation is incorrect, my comrades?

#79 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2019-03-19 08:51 AM | Reply

Meanwhile the average new car payment is $530/month, $381/month for used.

www.nerdwallet.com

#80 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2019-03-19 08:54 AM | Reply

Average cable bill is $85/month, Satellite is over $100/month.

#81 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2019-03-19 08:55 AM | Reply

GracieAmazied is part of the Florida Retirement System. Getting a taxpayer supported retirement. Some planning.

#82 | Posted by zarnon at 2019-03-19 09:26 AM | Reply

No wonder Gracie doesn't need the ACA. She's probably already getting benefits from a taxpayer funded healthcare plan.

#83 | Posted by zarnon at 2019-03-19 09:29 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#82 and she didn't even work for it; she got half of her husband's retirement plan in a divorce.

No wonder she looks down on government workers - she gets their money for free.

#84 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-19 09:37 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I funded my own retirement plan , take on all the risk and had to have a six figure job to come close to 1,000,000. I also averaged 9% at Vanguard managing my rollovers and SEP. Not too shabby.

I have been saving hard for 12 years, before that I'd barely saved 100,000 in 10 years of work.
I will have enough to make 36K per year before SS. That's at a 4% WD rate. I've paid off my house, cars, credit cards and student loan debt.

My partner and I plan to get married and I will get added to her insurance plan.

My expenses will be 1/2 bills and property tax. About 400.00 per month.

Still seems small and nothing to crow over.

I'll keep my medical license in case my plan fails although I'll probably just sell/rent my home move to a cheaper country if I can't make it here. My GF is Vietnamese and cost of living is a helluva lot different over there.

#85 | Posted by zarnon at 2019-03-19 09:48 AM | Reply

82 and she didn't even work for it; she got half of her husband's retirement plan in a divorce.

No wonder she looks down on government workers - she gets their money for free.

Wow. Just had to read all the comments after this.

Gracie had her own 401k and investments (so she says) but needed 50% of her husband's retirement in the divorce? I bet that's not what all she ended up with. Part of that parental-led financial planning, eh?

Reminds me why I need a strong prenup and a great divorce lawyer if my partner ever turns out to be someone like her. Yikers.

#86 | Posted by zarnon at 2019-03-19 10:02 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Gracie had her own 401k and investments (so she says) but needed 50% of her husband's retirement in the divorce? ... Part of that parental-led financial planning, eh?" - #86 | Posted by zarnon at 2019-03-19 10:02 AM

"I retired at 55. And I have not touched my FRS (Can't until I'm 62)...My parents did an excellent job teaching my sisters and I the value of saving and investing." - #1 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-17 05:25 PM

"My state retirement is 50% of my ex husbands that I got in the divorce along with other things." - #49 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2019-03-18 01:58 PM

For someone who was given 50% of her ex husbands's retirement in a divorce, gracie sure does use the word my a lot when talking about it.

Doesn't sound like something earned.

Sounds like an entitlement.

#87 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-19 10:32 AM | Reply

As an aside, i'd give up 100% of my retirement account if it meant i didn't have to be married to Gracie.

#88 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-19 10:53 AM | Reply

"Gracie had her own 401k and investments (so she says) but needed 50% of her husband's retirement in the divorce?"

Explains a lot about Gracie.

Don't get me wrong. I don't begrudge any woman her 50% of my stuff that I earned if she decides to bolt. If She "suffered" and endured our marriage as much as I did (assuming she sticks around and doesn't fool around). Just give the credit for earning it where it belongs.

But honestly there are some women who do not deserve a single dime as they basically used their man as an ATM. And then they discarded him like a dried up husk when things get rough.

And then drag him thru the courts take everything and then brag about how smart and "self sufficient" they are.

#89 | Posted by donnerboy at 2019-03-19 10:58 AM | Reply

#1 | POSTED BY GRACIEAMAZED

Well truly, if Gracie can do it, anyone can. lol

#90 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2019-03-19 11:48 AM | Reply


And what happens if everyone chooses only high paying professions?

#56 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

Scream racism, sexiam, homophobia, etc.. and get them to lower standards.

#91 | Posted by boaz at 2019-03-19 01:10 PM | Reply

#87 | Posted by Hans

Gracie,

It's not good to let Hans know about personal information. He stores it and uses it at a later time. He will forever pull out this information like a pervert and creep he is.

#92 | Posted by boaz at 2019-03-19 01:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"It's not good to let Hans know about personal information." - #92 | Posted by boaz at 2019-03-19 01:14 PM

She didn't let me know.

She let the entire DR community know, boaz.

And, obviously, many people have ridiculed her, appropriately.

#93 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-19 01:17 PM | Reply

#2 I have great insurance, not ACA. Other then you just being an angry little hateful person why would you pretend to know the relationship with my parents?

#5 | POSTED BY GRACIEAMAZED AT 2019-03-17 06:39 PM | REPLY |

ACA is a law not a product.

All major medical health insurance plans with effective dates of January 1, 2014 or later are required to be ACA-compliant. This is true whether they're sold in the exchange or off-exchange.

Source: www.healthinsurance.org
Follow us: @EyeOnInsurance on Twitter | healthinsurance.org on Facebook

#94 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2019-03-19 01:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"Nobody said it was, -------. Go back and read your own drivel that was being responded to."

Snoofy said exactly that:

"That's meaningless because our retirement costs, like our earnings, aren't global, they're local."

"I'll take "Meaningless Barometers for $800", Alex."

I would too if I were a progressive. Like Kim Kardashian whining that, because her social status is not as high as some others, and for that reason she's disadvantaged.

"Who does owe the taxpayers anything?"

I do.

I'm expected to show up to work in return for my taxpayer funded existence.

#95 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 02:44 PM | Reply

"Your complaints about the poor apply to the rich, but are never levied against them."

The rich already pay all the taxes. They are the taxpayers, by and large.

Maybe they owe themselves?

#96 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 02:45 PM | Reply

"The rich already pay all the taxes."

I guess you're back to "the rich" meaning all Americans.

#97 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-19 02:50 PM | Reply

"Who does owe the taxpayers anything?"

I do.

I'm expected to show up to work in return for my taxpayer funded existence."

LOL.

So if your boss pays taxes, you owe at least one taxpayer showing up at work.

Why do you bother with this nonsense?

#98 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-19 02:54 PM | Reply

I suppose 99 posts is a little late to mention this, but nothing in the article actually backs up the claim in the title. He lists average pay and average 401k/493b/IRA. He doesn't ask how many of each the average American has. He isn't counting property values or liquid assets. He isn't sorting by age group. No beef on the burger.

#99 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2019-03-19 03:24 PM | Reply

If an American cannot afford food and housing in America then the fact that they are "richer" than someone in another country is irrelevant.

#100 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2019-03-19 03:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I guess you're back to "the rich" meaning all Americans."

You can stop right there. Only USAns making more than $35k per year can truly qualify as 1%-ers.

But really, I was referring to the people who pay taxes. So, not the bottom 50% (who only pay 2.8% of their combined income to Federal Income Tax). You could to with the US 1%, who pay 39.5% of total income tax if you want. Or the top 5%, who cover about 60% of the total burden. Or you could use the top 25%, who cover 75% of the total burden.

"Why do you bother with this nonsense?"

Noblesse Oblige. I feel as a more intelligent contributor, I owe it to you and others to try and make you less stupid.

You're welcome!

#101 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 03:28 PM | Reply

For someone who was given 50% of her ex husbands's retirement in a divorce, gracie sure does use the word my a lot when talking about it.
Doesn't sound like something earned.
Sounds like an entitlement.

Unlike the entitlements that get tossed around here every day ... "medical care is a right!" .... she actually IS entitled to half his retirement. Joint property state. She owns half of everything. He would likewise get half of hers. Debts are divided down the middle.

#102 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2019-03-19 03:33 PM | Reply

No wonder Gracie doesn't need the ACA. She's probably already getting benefits from a taxpayer funded healthcare plan.

#83 | Posted by zarnon

At one point a couple years ago she was claiming it would cost her more per month in premiums than the most expensive health insurance monthly premium offered on the Exchange in Florida. At the time, I checked to see what they were for plans offered there on Healthcare.gov. And she never mentioned the cost reduction due to subsidies. If her income was high, there was no good reason she couldn't have afforded monthly premiums without a subsidy. In other words, it was all Fox News blather.

#103 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 03:39 PM | Reply

But really, I was referring to the people who pay taxes. So, not the bottom 50% (who only pay 2.8% of their combined income to Federal Income Tax). You could to with the US 1%, who pay 39.5% of total income tax if you want. Or the top 5%, who cover about 60% of the total burden. Or you could use the top 25%, who cover 75% of the total burden.

#101 | Posted by madbomber

Look at this bootlicker whining that the rich pay too much taxes so that he'll have to pay more.

#104 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-19 03:44 PM | Reply

Joint property state. She owns half of everything. He would likewise get half of hers. Debts are divided down the middle.

#102 | Posted by MUSTANG

Even if she didn't earn it and she committed Adultery and completely destroyed the marriage.

Socialism. Just like the NFL.

It doesn't matter who wins or loses..EVERYONE GETS PAID.

#105 | Posted by donnerboy at 2019-03-19 03:51 PM | Reply

#105 You don't have to sell me. I was in Cali when my jobless professional consumer bailed. 50/50 in Cali means she got the stuff and I got the bills.

#106 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2019-03-19 04:13 PM | Reply

I retired at 55. And I have not touched my FRS (Can't until I'm 62). I don't collect social security (Can't until 65). I live comfortably on various investments from over the years and use money markets not traditional checking/savings accounts. My parents did an excellent job teaching my sisters and I the value of saving and investing. To not buy what we couldn't afford. If you used a credit card make sure it was paid in full each month. I own my car and condo free and clear. It can be done.

#1 | POSTED BY GRACIEAMAZED

During Gracie's Early Life versus Now:

1. Cost of 4 year College
Gracie's time: $39,643 (in today's dollars)
Now: $103,616

2. Income
Gracie's time: only 25% of Full Time Jobs held by a 30 year old paid less than $30K a year in today's dollars (many required no college education)
Now: 41% of Full Time Jobs held by 30 year olds pay less than $30K

3. Upward Mobility
Gracie's time: 92% of 30 year olds earned more than their parents did at that same age
Now: 50% of 30 year olds earn more than their parents did at that age

4. Health Care Insurance Premiums
Gracie's time: Mainly free since most coverage through employment with no premiums
Now: Most pay premiums and even compared to even 1990, premiums have double compared to wages

5. Out of Pocket Health Care Costs
Gracie's time: $600 per year on average per capita
Now: $1,100 per year on average per capita

6. Consumer Price Index
Gracie's Time: 37.8
Now: 220.223
For every $1 increase in the minimum wage since 1970, the price of the average item has gone up $1.36

7. Jobs requiring no college degree
Gracie's Time: 72%
Now: $41%

8. Average Cost of a Single Family Home
Gracie's time: $70,500 (in today's dollars)
Now: $240,100

Don't hand us a stacked deck and wonder why we can't win.

#107 | Posted by Sycophant at 2019-03-19 04:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"Look at this bootlicker whining that the rich pay too much taxes so that he'll have to pay more."

I'm just as willing to provide you a quality education on economics as I am Snoofy.

You're also welcome, lil buddy.

#108 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 05:21 PM | Reply

"Don't hand us a stacked deck and wonder why we can't win."

Maybe you should be asking why so many others are winning, despite coming from similar circumstances, and you're not.

I think that would be a much better question.

A lot of it is likely tied to you living in a state you really can't afford to live in. You may want to consider Arkansas or Alabama...if they'll take you.

#109 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 05:24 PM | Reply

"Look at this bootlicker whining that the rich pay too much taxes so that he'll have to pay more."

I'm just as willing to provide you a quality education on economics as I am Snoofy.

You're also welcome, lil buddy.

#108 | Posted by madbomber

Yeah I'd love to see the economic lesson that shows how the rich are suffering so badly that they need their taxes cut at your and my expense.

#110 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-19 05:36 PM | Reply

"Yeah I'd love to see the economic lesson that shows how the rich are suffering so badly that they need their taxes cut at your and my expense."

Then you should go to college and take an economics course. Something you can pry you out of your own head. Because the place you live is not reflective of reality.

But again, all easily solved, starting with ECON 101.

And you're a rich kid. You're your own bogeyman. It must suck to have to look in the mirror every day.

#111 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 05:58 PM | Reply

BOMBER

The most recent tax cuts haven't helped the middle class. Corporations haven't used them to build factories or increase wages.

All we got from tax cuts are deficits over $1 trillion .. again. Where they were when W left office. If the economy is roaring along, why aren't revenues INCREASING and deficits FALLING?

Tax cuts. Lower your income and you'll go in the hole.

ECON 101

Of course, the minute Republicans aren't in power, we'll hear whining about deficits and debt again.

#112 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 06:16 PM | Reply

Clinton left office with $5.6 Trillion in debt and $0 in deficits. During his last budget year we spent $1.6 Trillion

When W left office, the budget was doubled, and thanks to the 2 rounds of tax cuts and Republican economic policies we were running $1.4 Trillion annual deficits and the national debt was more than doubled as a result.

Republicans suck at economics. Their plans only leave monstrous holes.

Our current annual deficit is back well over $1 Trillion. This after they'd fallen to $500 Billion under Obama.

#113 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 06:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Then you should go to college and take an economics course. Something you can pry you out of your own head. Because the place you live is not reflective of reality.

But again, all easily solved, starting with ECON 101.

And you're a rich kid. You're your own bogeyman. It must suck to have to look in the mirror every day.

#111 | Posted by madbomber

Come on you can't even give the cliffs notes version?

Why should poor and middle class have less money so the rich can have more?

#114 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-19 06:25 PM | Reply

#107 | Posted by Sycophant

That's what Republican policies have done to America's middle class since Reagan. The only ones who've benefited are people and corporations who didn't need tax cuts in the first place.

#115 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 06:40 PM | Reply

"The most recent tax cuts haven't helped the middle class. Corporations haven't used them to build factories or increase wages."

That's not true. Gains in pay were at an 11 year high. And median household income was at an all-time high.

"Our current annual deficit is back well over $1 Trillion. This after they'd fallen to $500 Billion under Obama."

Have you heard of the Dems Green New Deal, or its $93 Trillion Dollar price tag? I agree that Repubs can't balance a budget, but I don't even know how the Dems could offer up GND with a strait face. It's like they want to lose the next election.

#116 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 06:42 PM | Reply

"Why should poor and middle class have less money so the rich can have more?"

Because the poor and middle class lack the economic value that would compel someone to pay them more. Sometimes because they just have nothing to offer. More often they have nothing unique to offer, meaning they wind up competing in a labor market that includes almost all of us. We are all, after all, perfectly qualified unskilled workers. On the other hand, the rich have or had the ability to provide a unique service that demands a high wage within a free market. At this point we start to get in to supply and demand and the rate at which markets clear. Still basic, but it kinda requires graphs.

#117 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 06:47 PM | Reply

"That's what Republican policies have done to America's middle class since Reagan. The only ones who've benefited are people and corporations who didn't need tax cuts in the first place."

That's completely false. The Reagan tax cuts not only increased total tax revenues, but also increased the amount of the tax burden borne by the top 10% of income earners by 19% between the years of 1981 and 1988.

If Reagan had a "D" after his name, you would be praising him for cutting taxes on the middle and low classes, even while increasing revenues.

#118 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 06:52 PM | Reply

This is the outcome from class warfare by the 1%, deliberate policy with known consequences. Of the last 2000 pieces of legislation under Democrat and Republican governance, every piece fulfilled the will of the 1%, the 99% count for nothing. The enemy, which is the 1%, wants it all, they do not want to share anything with anybody and a half dozen people on this site explain to us every day why it is a moral imperative to continue on this path. It helps feed military recruitment which kills people so the 1% can have more, if you complain too loudly they will have the police or national guard shoot you, only just last year they decided you are the people that must pay all the taxes because the poor have nothing more to give and the rich don't want to. Don't you understand!

#119 | Posted by bayviking at 2019-03-19 06:55 PM | Reply

Because the poor and middle class lack the economic value that would compel someone to pay them more. Sometimes because they just have nothing to offer. More often they have nothing unique to offer, meaning they wind up competing in a labor market that includes almost all of us. We are all, after all, perfectly qualified unskilled workers. On the other hand, the rich have or had the ability to provide a unique service that demands a high wage within a free market. At this point we start to get in to supply and demand and the rate at which markets clear. Still basic, but it kinda requires graphs.

#117 | Posted by madbomber

I didn't ask you why the poor earn less than the rich. I asked you why the poor and middle class should PAY MORE so the rich can PAY LESS?

You chose to answer a question no one asked instead.

#120 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-19 06:59 PM | Reply

#118 | Posted by madbomber

Reagan only agreed to cut taxes once he saw how his tax cuts were exploding the debt. He gave us our first $1 Trillion debt, and deficits began to explode thanks to spending increases and tax cuts. Policies Republicans have run with en force. It wasn't long before annual deficits overtook what our entire national debt was when Reagan took office.

Or, as Dick Cheney said, "Reagan proved deficits don't matter." Well, they DO, don't they? It's all y'all talked about once Obama took office. Deficits THEY created all by themselves!

I don't care what you say or think. Numbers don't lie.

Republicans left us in a deep hole when Obama took office, and they just dug us a deeper hole with tax cuts that haven't increased our revenues. Deficits of over $1 Trillion - AGAIN - are all the proof you need those tax cuts haven't done what Republicans claimed they would.

They DOUBLED the budget all by themselves when W was president. They left us with doubled debt and $1.4 Trillion deficits after Clinton left office with 2 years of $0 deficits and a plan on W's desk on how to pay off the national debt by the middle 2000's.

#121 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 07:06 PM | Reply

#117 | Posted by madbomber

The rich have gotten richer and the middle class poorer ... all due to Republican economic policies. They don't give a flying f**k about anyone but the 1% and corporations. Both of which didn't need deficit/debt creating tax cuts.

#122 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 07:08 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I asked you why the poor and middle class should PAY MORE so the rich can PAY LESS?"

That is absolutely not what you asked...but the inverse of your statement represents reality. The rich pay more. Far FAR more, relieving the poor and middle class of the burden of their fair share.

"Reagan only agreed to cut taxes once he saw how his tax cuts were exploding the debt. He gave us our first $1 Trillion debt"

That's true, and definitely worthy of criticism, but has noting to do with the reality of tax revenues in the US post cut.

"They DOUBLED the budget all by themselves when W was president. They left us with doubled debt and $1.4 Trillion deficits after Clinton left office with 2 years of $0 deficits and a plan on W's desk on how to pay off the national debt by the middle 2000's."

I don't disagree. I regard Clinton as the last fiscal conservative president we've had in office.

"The rich have gotten richer and the middle class poorer ... all due to Republican economic policies."

Negative. The rich have gotten richer because they have the skills and services essential to a modern, functioning society. The poor have gotten poorer because they have less to offer society in return for a wage. And this isn't a partisan thing. Neither Repubs or Dems can change the value of a good or service, because to do so would require altering the state of consciousness of the consumer. And that would be very difficult, and very immoral. The best the government could do is enact policies (like high taxes) that deter high income earners from engaging in those practices that result in high incomes. Because there are really no scenarios where high income earners continue to work, knowing that much of their income will be given away by the government for someone else's benefit.

#123 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 07:27 PM | Reply

Those with skills or services in high demand will continue to get rich. Those who lack those skills will continue to get poor. You could cut (or maximize) every tax in existence...the only thing that's going to change is the marginal rate at which the rich get richer or the poor get poorer. Because neither addresses the underlying conditions that create the environment.

#124 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 07:30 PM | Reply

Most people I know live paycheck to paycheck. They don't save mainly because they are already in the red or close to that. Some of it can be attributed to lack of discipline and lack of education about savings and investment. But the bigger problem is that the cost of living is outpacing income gains and it is getting harder and harder to maintain even modestly middle class living standard. E.g. a family with two kids making a combined income of 100K should be in good shape, right? Not in a place like, say New York City. Between federal, state, and city taxes, social security and medicare taxes and the cost of medical insurance, they'd be lucky to get 5.5K net pay per month. Probably at least a half of that goes for rent. Then they'd get, say, $2300 per month in for all other expenses. That includes utilities, cable, cell phones, bus/subway, kids' daycare and after school activities, dentists, copayments for medical care and medications, groceries, clothing, laundry, etc. Then they are probably already in the red and piling up credit card debt, and that's before they could start thinking about a gym membership, going to a musical performance, a trip to visit aunt Jane in Vermont, a dog for the kids, a family vacation, or the kids' college fund. I can't really blame them for not putting $400 per month in 401k.

#125 | Posted by berto42 at 2019-03-19 08:32 PM | Reply

We all make our choices.
City, burbs, boonies, etc

I'm tired of hearing people whine about money while going on tropical vacations/Vegas multiple times a year.
These same turds lease vehicles above their lots in life/pay grades.
Most have boats or some other toys.
One or some of those things is understandable, but too many people want it all and overextend themselves.
It's always some form of "it was only $x so we got a great deal we couldn't pass it up"...sure you could, and you should. You're broke.

#126 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2019-03-19 08:58 PM | Reply

"It's always some form of "it was only $x so we got a great deal we couldn't pass it up"..." - #126 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2019-03-19 08:58 PM

Which reminds me of the story...

A woman decided to have a face lift for her birthday.
She spent $5000 and felt really good about the results.
On her way home she stopped at a dress shop to look around.
As she was leaving, she said to the sales clerk, "I hope you don't mind me asking, but how old do you think I am?"
"About 35,"he replied.
"I'm actually 47," the woman said, feeling really happy.
After that she went into McDonald's for lunch and asked the order taker the same question.
He replied, "Oh, you look about 29."
"I am actually 47!" she said, feeling really good.
While standing at the bus stop she asked an old man the same question.
He replied, "I am 85 years old and my eyesight is going. But when I was young there was a sure way of telling a woman's age. If I put my hand up your skirt I will be able to tell your exact age."
There was no one around, so the woman said, "What the hell?" and let him slip his hand up her skirt.
After feeling around for a while, the old man said, "OK, You are 47."
Stunned, the woman said, "That was brilliant! How did you do that?"
The old man replied, "I was behind you in line at McDonald's."

#127 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-19 09:02 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

HANS

I remember a version of that with a couple gals in the nursing home and a 90 year old man suffering from age related dementia.

Another one is about the elderly woman in the nursing home who kept lifting her skirt and screaming "Super Sex!" An old man said, "from the look of things, I'll definitely have the soup!!"

#128 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 09:46 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

"I can't really blame them for not putting $400 per month in 401k."

Here's the other things. You can spend it when you're young and vibrant, or save it for when you're old and decrepit. It would kinda such to be wheelchair bound at 75 with a ton of money in the bank, looking back and realizing how much you passed up because you wanted to save for the future.

#129 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 09:36 AM | Reply

"Why should poor and middle class have less money so the rich can have more?"

Because the poor and middle class lack the economic value that would compel someone to pay them more."

So then why is median income at an all time high?

#130 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-20 02:21 PM | Reply

"It would kinda such to be wheelchair bound at 75 with a ton of money in the bank, looking back and realizing how much you passed up because you wanted to save for the future.
#129 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER"

So would it suck more to be 75 in a wheelchair and rich, or 75 in a wheelchair and poor?

#131 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-20 02:24 PM | Reply

"So then why is median income at an all time high?"

Median US income...and we've already established that poor Americans aren't really poor...they're only relatively poor to those around them. Not only in terms of wealth, but in terms of expectations.

#132 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 04:49 PM | Reply

"and we've already established that poor Americans aren't really poor"

You need new material, this premise gets refuted every time you make it.

(I mean, refuted economically, in addition to it being a No True Scotsman fallacy in its own right.)

#133 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-20 04:52 PM | Reply

"You need new material, this premise gets refuted every time you make it."

It really can't be refuted.

You can't make the argument that someone living at the poverty level in the US is really poor, when that income level is quite a bit higher than median household income worldwide.

It's like saying that Kim Kardhashian is poor because she doesn't have the money that her sister Kylie does.

And you may want to wait until after you've completed an economics course before you start parading around arguments based on economics. I've yet to see you demonstrate even the most basic understanding of contemporary economic theory.

#134 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 05:03 PM | Reply

Median US income...and we've already established that poor Americans aren't really poor...they're only relatively poor to those around them. Not only in terms of wealth, but in terms of expectations.

#132 | Posted by madbomber

Horsecrap. If you can't afford healthcare, quality food, and an education for your kids, you are poor by american standards.

The standards of south asian hut-dwellers are irrelevant.

#135 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-20 05:24 PM | Reply

And you may want to wait until after you've completed an economics course before you start parading around arguments based on economics. I've yet to see you demonstrate even the most basic understanding of contemporary economic theory.

#134 | Posted by madbomber

You keep bragging about your economics knowledge but yesterday you failed to explain why the rich needed a tax cut funded by the middle class and poor.

#136 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-20 05:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

He also won't show his math, which is the tool economists use to arrive at their conclusions.

He learned some things that economists sometimes think, but doesn't know why economists think those things, or when those paradigms are appropriate and when they're not.

#137 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-20 05:29 PM | Reply

SPEAKSOFTLY

The 2019 World Happiness Report was released today. 7 chapters, polling done by Gallup and further analytics by experts in the field.

The top countries all practice 'democratic socialism.' U.S. is 19th, just above the The Czech Republic and the United Arab Emirates. We've dropped 5 places since last year.

01 Finland
02 Denmark
03 Norway
04 Iceland
05 Netherlands
06 Switzerland
07 Sweden
08 New Zealand
09 Canada
10 Austria

worldhappiness.report (there are a total of 7 chapters in this comprehensive report)
List of countries in order
www.gallup.com (Gallup does the polling)

#138 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-20 05:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#134 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

I literally ignore anything you say about people being poor or not poor because it is totally irrelevant to discuss global financials in a conversation about American households. I do not care about the price of rice in china when I am at the grocery store picking up my own bag here in the US. It has absolutely no bearing on whether I can afford to buy it or not. The fact that so many children go hungry in the US and people are homeless here has NOT ONE THING to do with what a man is paid for work in Germany. Not. At. All.

#139 | Posted by justagirl_idaho at 2019-03-20 05:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The mad bomber has proven well he doesn't care about facts. Only about how he feels about certain topics. And, like Trump, he seems to be devoid of empathy.

#140 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-20 05:57 PM | Reply

I literally ignore anything you say about people being poor or not poor because it is totally irrelevant to discuss global financials in a conversation about American households. I do not care about the price of rice in china when I am at the grocery store picking up my own bag here in the US. It has absolutely no bearing on whether I can afford to buy it or not. The fact that so many children go hungry in the US and people are homeless here has NOT ONE THING to do with what a man is paid for work in Germany. Not. At. All.

#139 | Posted by justagirl_idaho

That's just another weak ass billionaire-defending talking point: well the poor in other countries have it worse so you shouldnt complain about billionaires taking more money from the poor in america!

#141 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-20 06:08 PM | Reply

"Horsecrap. If you can't afford healthcare, quality food, and an education for your kids, you are poor by american standards."

OK.

What about the remaining 89% of the planet? Desperate, inescapable poverty?

"The standards of south asian hut-dwellers are irrelevant."

Ahh...another caring progressive. Screw them...so long as you get yours. Paid for by someone else of course.

#142 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 06:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Ahh...another caring progressive"

All they're doing is staying on-topic.

The topic isn't south Asian hut dwellers, yet you keep bringing up their economic status...

#143 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-20 07:00 PM | Reply

- What about the remaining 89% of the planet?

They don't live here.

The, "But What About Somali!?" meme when discussing this country is really, really tired. You should put it to bed.

#144 | Posted by Corky at 2019-03-20 07:00 PM | Reply

"You keep bragging about your economics knowledge but yesterday you failed to explain why the rich needed a tax cut funded by the middle class and poor."

It wasn't funded by the middle class and the poor...unless their taxes went up. I'm pretty sure they did not. The bottom 50% of taxpayers only contribute 2.8% to total federal income tax revenues.

"He also won't show his math, which is the tool economists use to arrive at their conclusions."

Which conclusions would you like?

And it's math, Einstein. It's not like math produces more than one answer.

"The top countries all practice 'democratic socialism.' U.S. is 19th, just above the The Czech Republic and the United Arab Emirates. We've dropped 5 places since last year."

Do want me to provide a list of socialist countries that are unhappy?

#145 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 07:02 PM | Reply

"I literally ignore anything you say about people being poor or not poor because it is totally irrelevant to discuss global financials in a conversation about American households. I do not care about the price of rice in china when I am at the grocery store picking up my own bag here in the US. It has absolutely no bearing on whether I can afford to buy it or not. The fact that so many children go hungry in the US and people are homeless here has NOT ONE THING to do with what a man is paid for work in Germany. Not. At. All."

I think you may need to do a little traveling around the globe. You'd find that poverty as you know it is not really poverty, simply due to the fact that if you're born in the US, everything you need to survive will be provided for you.

Like I said, Kim Kardashian complaining because Kylie has more money, and therefor enjoys a higher, more desirable standard of living. You're Kim.

#146 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 07:07 PM | Reply

"All they're doing is staying on-topic."

They're not. Because they are making the absolutely incorrect assumption that you need more income to survive in the US than you do elsewhere. In reality, for me to enjoy the quality of life I currently have here in the US would cost a lot more in somewhere like Honduras, Qatar, or even Germany. That's because actual poverty is not something you can conceive of. Because you haven't seen it.

To you, poverty is struggling to pay for the new iPhone when it comes out, or having to choose between paying your cable bill or your car payment.

Those are rich people problems.

#147 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 07:11 PM | Reply

"When it gets down to it -- talking trade balances here -- once we've brain-drained all our technology into other countries, once things have evened out, they're making cars in Bolivia and microwave ovens in Tadzhikistan and selling them here -- once our edge in natural resources has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New Zealand for a nickel -- once the Invisible Hand has taken away all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider to be prosperity -- y'know what? There's only four things we do better than anyone else:
music
movies
microcode (software)
high-speed pizza delivery"

-Neil Stephenson

#148 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-03-20 07:11 PM | Reply

I have marble counter-tops. So do most houses in my neighborhood. Do you have any idea how much it would cost me to put marble counter-tops into a house in Honduras?

#149 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 07:13 PM | Reply

"The standards of south asian hut-dwellers are irrelevant."

Ahh...another caring progressive. Screw them...so long as you get yours. Paid for by someone else of course.

#142 | Posted by madbomber

Saying that the standards of other countries are irrelevant to america's poor is not the same as not CARING about suffering people.

Either you're stupid, or you already know that and you're just desperate for some way to take the moral high ground in an argument where you're defending the rich sociopaths again.

#150 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-20 07:13 PM | Reply

"You keep bragging about your economics knowledge but yesterday you failed to explain why the rich needed a tax cut funded by the middle class and poor."

It wasn't funded by the middle class and the poor...unless their taxes went up.

#145 | Posted by madbomber

It was funded by creating a giant hole in the budget that will be filled by cutting services and raising taxes on the poor and middle class.

www.vox.com

The CBO estimated in April that tax bill would add $1.9 trillion to the debt over the course of a decade.

"In terms of the big picture, what it's doing is making current rich people better off at the expense of lower-income households and future generations," William Gale, a senior fellow in economics studies at think tank the Brookings Institution, said.

And guess what? The tax cuts for the middle class and poor EXPIRE in a few years. Tax cuts for the rich - PERMANENT. This is what class warfare looks like. And you're fighting for the wrong side, against your own best interests.

#151 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-20 07:19 PM | Reply

"Saying that the standards of other countries are irrelevant to america's poor is not the same as not CARING about suffering people."

Their absolutely relevant, because if you say that Americans are poor, then the vast majority of the rest of the world is mired in desperate poverty. And it's hard to make the argument that rich folks like yourself should have thier money confiscated and given to Americans with less money in order for them to do less while getting more, even while a large part of the world really is suffering under more serious circumstances.

And that's not even taking into account the uniquely incredible amount of opportunity available to residents of the US that is non-existent elsewhere.

#152 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 07:21 PM | Reply

"It was funded by creating a giant hole in the budget that will be filled by cutting services and raising taxes on the poor and middle class."

So...it's a cost to the poor people if the government stops forcing the rich people to cover their share of what it costs to run society. That's like saying I'm taking cookies from you if I don't give you my cookies.

#153 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 07:25 PM | Reply

"And guess what? The tax cuts for the middle class and poor EXPIRE in a few years. Tax cuts for the rich - PERMANENT. This is what class warfare looks like. And you're fighting for the wrong side, against your own best interests."

I really can't deep dive to the bottom of your argument. It seems like you want the handful of billionaire households to pay for everything seemingly, but there are not enough of them to matter. Which means getting into the much, much larger pool of millionaire households and levying equally high taxes on them. So you're fighting against your own best interests.

But here's the problem, when taxes get to the point where you can fund all these things using a very small pool of taxpayers, the rates become so high that they find alternatives to paying taxes. So you wind up with a government making big, bold promises that it can't keep. These types of things can work, but they really require that all of the stakeholders needed to provide the funding be willing to do so. The fact that those who are providers want something is immaterial, since they can't even provide for themselves, much less provide for others.

#154 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 07:41 PM | Reply

"So...it's a cost to the poor people if the government stops forcing the rich people to cover their share of what it costs to run society."

Yes, and also a cost to rich people.

Poor person blows out a tire on a pothole that didn't get repaired because "the government stops forcing the rich people to cover their share of what it costs to run society."
Poor person cost equals one new tire.

Rich person hits the same pothole.
Rich person cost equals one new tire.

#155 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-20 07:44 PM | Reply

Do you have any idea how much it would cost me to put marble counter-tops into a house in Honduras?
#149 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Literally any conversation with MadBummer.

#156 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-20 07:45 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Their absolutely relevant, because if you say that Americans are poor, then the vast majority of the rest of the world is mired in desperate poverty. And it's hard to make the argument that rich folks like yourself should have thier money confiscated and given to Americans with less money in order for them to do less while getting more, even while a large part of the world really is suffering under more serious circumstances.

And that's not even taking into account the uniquely incredible amount of opportunity available to residents of the US that is non-existent elsewhere.

#152 | Posted by madbomber

Saying it over and over doesn't make it true. The lives of people in other countries are irrelevant to discussions of whether or not it's ethical for the rich IN AMERICA to take more from the poor IN AMERICA.

We can keep going round and round on this til it get through your thick skull.

#157 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-20 07:54 PM | Reply

"Saying it over and over doesn't make it true. The lives of people in other countries are irrelevant to discussions of whether or not it's ethical for the rich IN AMERICA to take more from the poor IN AMERICA."

It's very relevant. You're just too caught up in yourself, and your own self-importance, to realize. Much like Kim would be, if she were to lament on how rough she had it...not being a billionaire like her little sis.

And the other thing...even in the US, whether you're rich or poor is largely regional. If you can't afford to live in California, maybe you should be moving to Alabama, or Arkansas.

Maybe that's the discussion that needs to be had?

#158 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 08:10 PM | Reply

"We can keep going round and round on this til it get through your thick skull."

Who is better off? Someone living in Honduras making $35k per year, or someone in the US?

#159 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 08:12 PM | Reply

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