Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, March 17, 2019

Watch an archive interview with Bernie Sanders on TODAY from 1981, shortly after he was elected mayor of Burlington, Vermont. NBC News' Phil Donahue interviews Sanders about his plans for Burlington, and in particular about his socialist political values.

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Well worth watching ...

Comments

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some comments, all recent as this was posted 3/7

The_Kind Panzer3 days ago
Consistent in his stances since the beginning of time.
Bernie was in a cave in 20,000 BC advocating Single-Payer witch-doctor care.


dfisk791 day ago
Jeez. He hasn't combed his hair in over 40 years

ivanfig11 week ago
Help us Bernie-Won-Kenobi. You're our only hope.

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2019-03-17 12:24 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

7 minutes of mush. Complete waste of time thanks to Fawning Phil Donahue.

#2 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-03-17 01:12 PM | Reply

7 minutes of extraordinary political video from the early Reagan 80's.

Cynical curmudgeonly rwing White Nationalist Apologists notwithstanding.

#3 | Posted by Corky at 2019-03-17 01:19 PM | Reply

7 minutes of mush.

For Nulli, that's normally meal time.

Let the nurse help you eat Nulli.

Otherwise it ends up on your shirt and trousers.

#4 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-17 01:22 PM | Reply | Funny: 3 | Newsworthy 1

So this was when he was an Independent.

I didn't mind some of his vision for Burlington. Though some of his laws on redevelopment go against my principles.
For instance not allowing developers to build elite apartments isn't the job of the government, if it wants to it can give incentives to developers to build "affordable" housing.

Again, I liked Bernie, he was right on a number of things, especially on illegal immigration until the "progressives" flipped him ......

Bernie in his own words .... on "Open Borders a Koch thing".....

It would make everybody in America poorer -- you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation state or in a country called the United States or UK or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don't believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.
You know what youth unemployment is in the United States of America today? If you're a white high school graduate, it's 33 percent, Hispanic 36 percent, African American 51 percent. You think we should open the borders and bring in a lot of low-wage workers, or do you think maybe we should try to get jobs for those kids?

I think from a moral responsibility we've got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty, but you don't do that by making people in this country even poorer.
www.vox.com

FYI Snoofy, by rightwing, Bernie means greedy capitalist.

#5 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 02:15 PM | Reply

"Again, I liked Bernie, he was right on a number of things, especially on illegal immigration until the "progressives" flipped him ......"

You say "a number of things." Illegal immigration was one, what are the other Bernie policies you like?

#6 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-03-17 02:21 PM | Reply

rwing White Nationalist Apologists notwithstanding.
~Porky

So Bernie is a White National Apologist? How do you align your bias in the face of overwhelming facts that Bernie was against illegal immigration to help minorities? Which is Nulli and my view as well.

Democrats through their policies of "Open Borders for all" oppress the millions of minorities in this country.

#7 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 02:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

what are the other Bernie policies you like?
#6 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

I like his view of local companies, not national ones. His incentives for local development, these are anti-fragile ideas. His vision of stakeholders not just shareholders, its hard to get right, but IMO the government can make incentives rather than regulate, this is where I differ from the typical "leftwinger" that just wants to make laws.

I don't mind healthcare for all, but its a practical impossibility doing it through "insurance" regulation. The ship has mostly sailed for the US on Nationalized Healthcare, unfortunately, due to the historical costs/incomes of people in the healthcare industry, you can't get it back down once the cat is out of the bag.

#8 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 02:26 PM | Reply

#4 | Posted by ClownShack

My guess on his 180 is that he finally started collecting SS and didn't have to worry about health insurance thanks to Medicare (both 'socialist' programs), so no need to worry about anyone else.

#9 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-17 02:49 PM | Reply

This is the clip that will be played over and over if Bernie is the nominee:

Phil: Are you a capitalist?

Bernie: No, I am not a capitalist.

This doesn't mean Bernie can't be the nominee or can't win the presidency if he is the nominee. It does mean he will have to explain, as he does somewhat in the clip, what democratic socialism is in his view, and, more importantly, what it will mean for the American people to have a democratic socialist holding the highest office in the land. IOW, he needs to define himself and the term not allow Trump and the GOP to do it for him.

#10 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-03-17 02:50 PM | Reply

#8 Bernie certainly disagrees with your "greed is good" philosophy. He also believes that society works better when cooperation rather than competition is the heart of things.

#11 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-03-17 02:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#7

"Open Borders" is a rwing meme, in political policy practice, it doesn't exist. And Bernie
isn't a kid cager like you, Dulli, and Trump.

Try to get a grip, debutante.

#12 | Posted by Corky at 2019-03-17 04:01 PM | Reply

"This is the clip that will be played over and over if Bernie is the nominee:
Phil: Are you a capitalist?
Bernie: No, I am not a capitalist."

Who here is a capitalist?
I don't use my money to buy raw materials and then buy labor to convert the raw materials to finished goods. Do you?
I'd say maybe 10% of the people here do that, tops. And that's being generous.
"6.02 percent of the US adult population owns a business as their main job. (Source: Kauffman Foundation 2016)"

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-17 04:05 PM | Reply

Do you?

Yes,

I don't use my money to buy raw materials and then buy labor to convert the raw materials to finished goods - Snoofy

Yes you do. ..

Unless you are in the military, in the US you are a capitalist agent.

#14 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 04:15 PM | Reply

Open borders as political policy practice, it doesn't exist.

Yes it does

#15 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 04:16 PM | Reply

"It gives me no pleasure to tell you what most of you already know, and that is that President Trump lies all of the time," Sanders, a frequent critic of Trump's, said.

"And in his remarks tonight and in recent weeks regarding immigration and the wall, he continues to lie."

The senator from Vermont specifically accused Trump of lying in his claims that Mexico would pay for the construction of a border wall, that thousands of terrorists enter the U.S. from the southern border and that former presidents told him that they supported building a wall.

Sanders also called for "comprehensive immigration reform" rather than the construction of a wall.

"In terms of immigration in this country, what we need to do is not to waste billions of dollars on a wall, but to finally the address the need for comprehensive immigration reform, including improved border security," he said."

thehill.com

Mattress and Dulli, a match made in rwing heaven, pretending that they or their Dear Leader have anything in common with Bernie on immigration policy is laughable.

#16 | Posted by Corky at 2019-03-17 04:18 PM | Reply

Bernie certainly disagrees with your "greed is good" philosophy.

No he doesn't, just like him I understand it has limits, but it is the best system to provide for the individual.

You just misunderstand the meaning, and take it to some illogical hyperbolic end.

#17 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 04:19 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#15

Only in your pea brain. There is no Dem policy position for "open borders", and there never has been.

#18 | Posted by Corky at 2019-03-17 04:20 PM | Reply

What's funny is mAndy Mattress pretending not to be a Randian Objectivist to the core.

#19 | Posted by Corky at 2019-03-17 04:21 PM | Reply

16 | POSTED BY CORKY

From 2019 he's been infected by the "progressive" disease

#20 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 04:22 PM | Reply

There is no Dem policy position for "open borders", and there never has been.

Yes there is..

#21 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 04:23 PM | Reply

He also believes that society works better when cooperation rather than competition is the heart of things.

That isn't what he believes. He references capitalist social democracies, as a model.

#22 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 04:28 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

--There is no Dem policy position for "open borders"

Of course they won't say it publicly. It would be political suicide in most of the country. That's their private position.

#23 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-03-17 04:28 PM | Reply

What he lays out clearly is cooperation between government and corporations through being a stakeholder.

#24 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 04:30 PM | Reply

- That's their private position.

That's what liars like Mattress, Dulli, and Trump say when the facts refute their memes.

Dems offered increased spending for border security, just not a wall.

The number of people who advocate "open numbers" is one that even mAndy could count up to if he took his shoes off and counted fingers and toes.

#25 | Posted by Corky at 2019-03-17 04:36 PM | Reply

"That's their private position." - #23 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-03-17 04:28 PM

"I can smell a liar like a fart in a lift!" - Robert Rinder

#26 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-17 05:18 PM | Reply

"Yes there is.." - #21 | Posted by Andre a Mattress at 2019-03-17 04:23 PM

You are living proof that manure can use the Internet.

#27 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-17 05:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"Bernie certainly disagrees with your 'greed is good' philosophy."
No he doesn't, just like him I understand it has limits, but it is the best system to provide for the individual.
You just misunderstand the meaning, and take it to some illogical hyperbolic end.

I can find lots of examples of Bernie talking about greed in a negative way but none of him speaking of it in a positive light, but maybe you can find some:

"To those on Wall Street who may be listening today, let me be very clear. Greed is not good. In fact, the greed of Wall Street and corporate America is destroying the fabric of our nation," he said. "And here is a New Year's resolution that I will keep if elected president, and that is if Wall Street does not end its greed we will end it for them."

"How many people need to die, how many people need to get unnecessarily sicker before Congress is prepared to take on the greed of the prescription drug industry?"

"If the pharmaceutical industry will not end its greed, which is literally killing Americans, then we will end it for them," the Vermont senator added.

#28 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-03-17 06:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"He also believes that society works better when cooperation rather than competition is the heart of things."
That isn't what he believes. He references capitalist social democracies, as a model.

Listen to the last 20 seconds of the linked to interview:

"Do I believe that the profit motive is fundamental to human nature? The answer is, no. I think the spirit of cooperation, that you and I can work together better rather than having to compete against each other and destroy each other."

#29 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-03-17 06:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Unless you are in the military, in the US you are a capitalist agent.
#14 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS"

Being a capitalist's agent is not the same as being a capitalist.
It's more proper to say I am capital.

#30 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-17 06:19 PM | Reply

"Bernie certainly disagrees with your 'greed is good' philosophy."
No he doesn't, just like him I understand it has limits, but it is the best system to provide for the individual.
You just misunderstand the meaning, and take it to some illogical hyperbolic end.

Tell me again how you and Bernie think alike and I'm the one who is taking things to some illogical hyperbolic end. To be fair, maybe he has spoken of things differently in recent years. That could be.

"He also believes that society works better when cooperation rather than competition is the heart of things."
That isn't what he believes.

It's what he believed. Again, maybe he has spoken differently on the issue in recent years.

#31 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-03-17 06:20 PM | Reply

Danni on the other hand is a capitalist. She ran a business.

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-17 06:21 PM | Reply

"I think the spirit of cooperation, that you and I can work together better rather than having to compete against each other and destroy each other."

LOL

#33 | Posted by eberly at 2019-03-17 06:39 PM | Reply

--"I think the spirit of cooperation, that you and I can work together better rather than having to compete against each other and destroy each other."

The philosophy of socialist communes, which were a disaster that led to mass starvation in the Soviet Union, Mao's China, etc.

#34 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-03-17 06:51 PM | Reply

The philosophy of socialist communes, which were a disaster that led to mass starvation

Communism failed in Soviet Russia?

Well. The soviets were the best at everything.

If they failed. No one can succeed.

#35 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-17 07:07 PM | Reply

"Open Borders" is a rwing meme, in political policy practice, it doesn't exist.
#12 | POSTED BY CORKY

The fact you'd need to state this is a clear indication you're dealing with trolls.

Don't feed the trolls.

#36 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-17 07:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Unless you are in the military, in the US you are a capitalist agent.
#14 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

What of postal workers? Teachers? Police? Sanitation workers? Firefighters?

#37 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-17 07:13 PM | Reply

That's their private position.
#23 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Nulli's private position is hogtied on all fours with a sausage in his mouth and two up his rear.

#38 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-17 07:14 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

we all known that Bernie is socialist, but has he given up his wealth? he got a $785,000 advance for a book, did he keep the money or did he donate or send in extra $ on his taxes?

just asking

#39 | Posted by Maverick at 2019-03-17 07:14 PM | Reply

Danni on the other hand is a capitalist. She ran a business.
#32 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

So did I, for 3yrs I ran my own software company, that's were you will learn we are all capitalist.

You just can't abstract the idea to yourself. As I have stated you don't understand, and if you did you don't care.

#40 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 07:16 PM | Reply

#38 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

That deserves a timeout.

#41 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 07:17 PM | Reply

#37 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

They are free to buy all thier own meals and room, cars, which allows them to make choices people in the military, n particular boot camp and deployment, just can't do.

In socialist and communist states you are assigned a room/home, a job and given chits for food and goods.

#42 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 07:21 PM | Reply

Bernie is plain talking, easy to understand and popular for some very good reasons.

#43 | Posted by bayviking at 2019-03-17 07:23 PM | Reply

--popular for some very good reasons.

Free stuff is very popular.

i1.wp.com

#44 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-03-17 07:33 PM | Reply

"Free stuff is very popular."

Free labor built this country.

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-17 07:36 PM | Reply

Free stuff is very popular

And easy for the masses, people like Snoofy to understand.

#46 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 07:36 PM | Reply

Free labor built this country.
#45 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Regardless of your opinion, that labor actually had a cost.

#47 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 07:37 PM | Reply

Free stuff is very popular.
#44 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Corporations and foreign nations love all the taxpayer money we give them.

Keep being a puppet for corporate America, Dulli.

#48 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-17 07:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Free labor built this country.
#45 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

"Yea. But that was just the blacks and Chinese. They don't count."
~Corporatifidian

#49 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-17 07:40 PM | Reply

Bernie talks about raising the average wages in Burlington and Vermont and all Nulli and AMac hear is lazy people like free stuff.

This demonstrates a complete lack of comprehension.

#50 | Posted by bayviking at 2019-03-17 07:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- Free stuff is very popular.

Signed,

Tenured in Torrance

Free stuff is what politicians give their big money donors.... you know, like tax cuts.

Profs Who Hate Students.... what a scam you have.

#51 | Posted by Corky at 2019-03-17 07:45 PM | Reply

"You just can't abstract the idea to yourself.
#40 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS"

Why can't I do that?

I'm not a baseball player, I'm not a eye doctor, I'm not a capitalist?

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-17 08:33 PM | Reply

Fascinating video. Bernie has a lot of passion. I like that.

He still combs his hair with a potato...

#53 | Posted by cbob at 2019-03-17 08:51 PM | Reply

Why can't I do that? - Snoofy.

It's your burden for life I suppose

I suggest you get out and open up a lemonade stand, #gofundme!

Like I said, either you don't understand, or you don't really care.

#54 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 09:21 PM | Reply

"Unless you are in the military, in the US you are a capitalist agent."

What if you work for the local, state or federal govt as Bernie has done much of his adult life? What if you work for a church or some other nonprofit?

#55 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-03-17 09:41 PM | Reply

What if you work for the local, state or federal govt as Bernie has done much of his adult life? What if you work for a church or some other nonprofit?

#55 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

In these cases you are free to choose your own home, how you save, how you retire, how you spend your vacations, and be a capitalist with regards to your and your families life. The issue would be, given particular fields you might be unable to sell your labor to anyone but the government. But you are still, in this system, a capitalist agent.

Understand socialism would be where they limit the prices of items, because they want to kill the profit motive of the individual. This typically leads to runs/shortages on the item.

Also Socialism they give you "allocations" to resources, you can't take more than that.

Bernie talks about raising the average wages in Burlington and Vermont and all Nulli and AMac hear is lazy people like free stuff. ~ Bayviking

He talks about raising wages by limiting illegal immigration per the statements above. As I pointed out to Snoofy nothing is "Free" even slavery.

In fact Slavery and Socialism have more in common than Snoofy cares to comment on.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

This demonstrates a complete lack of comprehension.

You were saying?

#56 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-17 10:52 PM | Reply

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Works for me. I would sign up for that. It's not slavery, because one of my needs is not being a slave.

Since you don't prefer that Social Contract, let's hear the one you volunteer to live by.

#57 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-17 10:58 PM | Reply

"You just can't abstract the idea to yourself.
#40 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS"
Why can't I do that?
I'm not a baseball player, I'm not a eye doctor, I'm not a capitalist?
#52 | Posted by snoofy

All I know is in the video Bernie says he's not a capitalist:

Phil: Are you a capitalist?
Bernie: No, I am not a capitalist.

#58 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-03-17 11:36 PM | Reply

Bernie Sanders net worth: Bernie Sanders is an American politician who has a net worth of $2 million dollars. According to his June 2017 Senate financial disclosure, Bernie earned around $1 million in 2016, the majority of which ($795,000) came from a book advance. When his various royalties and speaking engagement fees are combined with his $174,000 Senate salary, Bernie's total income in 2016 was $1,052,000. After taking into account mortgages and retirement accounts, Bernie estimated his net worth to be as high as $2 million.

One really has to smile with amusement :)

#59 | Posted by Crassus at 2019-03-17 11:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#58 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

Of course he says he isn't, so people like you and Snoofy gobble it up....

Yet as Crassus aptly points out ..

He's got a ton of capital, and uses it to grow more.

#60 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-18 12:03 AM | Reply

It is amusing to see so many people here think that some how and in most ways capitalism is BAD! I just shake my head and smile, at these people whose very success is though capitalism.

#61 | Posted by Crassus at 2019-03-18 12:08 AM | Reply

"Of course he says he isn't, so people like you and Snoofy gobble it up...."

Gobbling it up? LOL

#62 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-03-18 12:15 AM | Reply

#61 | POSTED BY CRASSUS

Even worse than that, these people can't even present an argument on how we "might" be wrong or incorrect.

Its pretty pathetic.

#63 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-03-18 12:39 AM | Reply

You think $2 million is a ton of capital?
For someone his age?
After earning a million last year?

#64 | Posted by bored at 2019-03-18 12:46 AM | Reply

Even worse than that, these people can't even present an argument on how we "might" be wrong or incorrect.

Oh, they have an argument, it is virtually used on every thread here, "you Nazi trumpeter blah blah blah" as if some how that invites discussions. It's going down faster than they can lower their standards.

#65 | Posted by Crassus at 2019-03-18 01:19 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

After earning a million last year?

#64 | POSTED BY BORED AT 2019-03-18 12:46 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Oh. So now a million in speaking fees is okay. Just trying to update my morals since 2016. Thanks guys.

#66 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-03-18 01:51 AM | Reply

"you Nazi trumpeter blah blah blah" as if some how that invites discussions. It's going down faster than they can lower their standards.

#65 | POSTED BY CRASSUS AT 2019-03-18 01:19 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Sometimes you gotta call em as you see em. If that affects you, then you might want to try reforming your party so that it can command some more respect than zero.

#67 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-03-18 01:59 AM | Reply

--Sometimes you gotta call em as you see em. If that affects you, then you might want to try reforming your party so that it can command some more respect than zero.

Self-justifying horsesh--t. Keep screaming "Nazi" and see if it gets you better results than screaming "deplorables" did in 2016.

#68 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-03-18 02:32 AM | Reply

Keep screaming "Nazi" and see if it gets you better results than screaming "deplorables" did in 2016.
#68 | POSTED BY NAZIFIDIAN

Shut up Xenophobian.

Hillary was right.

You and your ilk are deplorables.

#69 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-18 03:03 AM | Reply

Bernie estimated his net worth to be as high as $2 million.
One really has to smile with amusement :)
#59 | POSTED BY CRASSUS

You're easily amused. When did Bernie say you should live a life of poverty?

Meanwhile, Mitch McConnell's estimated net worth for 2015 is $26,927,535 (2015). www.opensecrets.org

7 Richest Senators

#70 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-18 03:17 AM | Reply

It is amusing to see so many people here think that some how and in most ways capitalism is BAD!
#61 | POSTED BY CRASSUS

Unregulated capitalism is bad.

There was a time republicans understood this.

#71 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-18 03:18 AM | Reply

Bernie: No, I am not a capitalist.
#58 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

He's a Democratic Socialist.

Like FDR.

#72 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-18 03:20 AM | Reply

#70

If you're going to come talk with the adults it is best to come with some understanding, oh, I bet you are not a capitalist either.

#73 | Posted by Crassus at 2019-03-18 03:21 AM | Reply

Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically -- to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few. To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy so that ordinary Americans can participate in the many decisions that affect our lives.

LOL....Like FDR....go back to school, chat some and learn, most adults know better than this.

#74 | Posted by Crassus at 2019-03-18 03:26 AM | Reply

Yep. Just like FDR. A Democratic Socialist.

It's okay crASSus.

Trump is your type of guy.

Conman. Liar. Swindler. Cheater. Narcissist. Fragile. Moron. Rapist. Adulterous.

All the qualities you value.

#75 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-18 03:48 AM | Reply

clown go to #65

#76 | Posted by Crassus at 2019-03-18 04:53 AM | Reply

- Yet as Crassus aptly points out ..

Words you never thought you would read here.... oh, wait, Mattress.

Never mind.

#77 | Posted by Corky at 2019-03-18 11:50 AM | Reply

The pattern here is right wing Goebbels get to define what socialism and communism is, not advocates of balanced policies such as Keynes, Sanders or even Marx.

Every society is a unique blend of capitalism and socialism which when administered properly optimizes the general welfare of the society with a state of the art infrastructure that makes doing everything in the free Enterprise system cheaper and easier.

How would your day go if the first thing you had to do was walk 4 miles for a bucket of water?

#78 | Posted by bayviking at 2019-03-18 02:58 PM | Reply

The pattern here is right wing Goebbels get to define what socialism and communism is, not advocates of balanced policies such as Keynes, Sanders or even Marx. - Viking

I didn't realize Merriam Webster was right wing Goebbels.

Definition of socialism
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

www.merriam-webster.com

The way you are trying to define it is: Government = Socialism

That's not what Socialism is and I don't understand why so many on the left have such a fetish for that word.

#79 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-03-18 03:41 PM | Reply

The way you are trying to define it is: Government = Socialism

Strawman.

That's not what Socialism is and I don't understand why so many on the left have such a fetish for that word.
#79 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

You have no clue what socialism is Jeff. You've been lied to your whole life.

Socialism, pure socialism. (Which no politician is advocating for.) Means taking the means of producing wealth (factories, enterprises, corporations, etc...) into worker ownership and democratic control by the workers who produce the wealth in the first place.

What people like Bernie and AOC want is to return tax rates to Eisenhower era rates. Cut military spending. Increasing aid to Americans by helping provide healthcare and education and social safety.

And despite the bullshht of "people wanting free stuff". The truth is. People want their tax dollars going towards something benefiting themselves rather than benefiting the rich. Rather than funding endless wars. Rather than paying foreign nations and billionaires.

#80 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-18 04:22 PM | Reply

"I can find lots of examples of Bernie talking about greed in a negative way but none of him speaking of it in a positive light, but maybe you can find some:"

When you demand that the government have the ability to take something that someone else has earned, and give it away to someone who did not do anything for that money in return, that's greed. He's just caging his greed behind as mask you find more desirable.

There is nothing wrong with socialism when it's centered around a group of volunteers willingly building wealth together collaboratively. Bernie is more about taking that which has already been built.

#81 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-18 04:23 PM | Reply

"When you demand that the government have the ability to take something that someone else has earned, and give it away to someone who did not do anything for that money in return, that's greed."

Greed is good!
Signed,
Capitalism

#82 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-18 04:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

When you demand that the government have the ability to take something that someone else has earned, and give it away to someone who did not do anything for that money in return, that's greed.

Which is exactly what the rich have been doing. For decades.

You're lies are old. Your deflections are lame.

Capitalism is literally the practice of stealing the profits of someone else's labor.

Fffk off.

#83 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-18 04:36 PM | Reply

"Socialism, pure socialism. (Which no politician is advocating for.) Means taking the means of producing wealth (factories, enterprises, corporations, etc...) into worker ownership and democratic control by the workers who produce the wealth in the first place."

It's been tried. Dumpster fire is probably the best way to describe the outcome.

"What people like Bernie and AOC want is to return tax rates to Eisenhower era rates."

Which were also characterized by a far longer list of deducatible expenses. In the 1950s, the average tax rate for the top 1% was 42%. For the top .1% it was in the high 30% range.

There is simply no reason to keep working when you're going to keep less than a dime on each dollar earned.

"People want their tax dollars going towards something benefiting themselves rather than benefiting the rich."

Wrong. Progressives don't want their money taxed at all. They want the rich to cover that burden. And by and large, the rich do just that.

#84 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-18 04:53 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Which is exactly what the rich have been doing. For decades."

What are the rich demanding that the government take?

"Capitalism is literally the practice of stealing the profits of someone else's labor."

You need to take an econ course Karl. Stat!

#85 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-18 04:54 PM | Reply

#80

You proved my point, Clown. Lefties are calling things Socialism that aren't Socialism. I have no idea why.

In the ‘70's and ‘80's Bernie was a true Socialist. He's likely evolved his views as he acquired wealth.

#86 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-03-18 06:49 PM | Reply

Clown,

The GND IS Socialism. "True Socialism", using your words.

#87 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-03-18 06:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#87

I don't agree that the GND is "socialism", it is nothing more than an incredibly unrealistic wish list, and even the imposition of classic socialist control of all major industries would not result in its implementation.

The problem with the so-called Democratic Socialists is that everyone who now identifies with them have no clear idea of what they want and how to get there, and throw out all sorts of ideas that they now label "socialism" like roads, police, the military and even higher tax rates. Compounding the problem, they have embraced a 70+ year old hippy from Vermont who used to espouse traditional socialism as the solution to all of societies problems until it very embarrassingly collapsed with the fall of the Soviet Union in the late 80's as their "spokesman", which makes it very easy for their opposition to deride them as communists. At this point, even Bernie has backtracked from that failed model and now is trying to call the Scandinavian countries "socialist", a label that they vocally reject.

Unless and until they can get their shht together and come up with a cogent plan on what they want and how to realistically get there, they will continue to rightfully be objects of derision from not only the Right but from the moderate elements in the Democratic party.

#88 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-18 07:19 PM | Reply

I accept your point on the American definition of socialism, which is a grotesque distortion of the truth, deeply ingrained in the US vernacular. This of definition eliminates capitalism entirely which is ridiculous. Why do you call China, Denmark, France or Germany communist or socialist when they operate McDonalds in all those countries? Obviously the US definition has no real world example that can be pointed to anywhere with the possible exception of Iran or North Korea and there only because US sanctions prevent trade. Its likely that other entrepreneurs operate there as well.

Do you now claim China, Canada, Germany and Russia are all now capitalist States? Because they all contain elements of Capitalism. Just as they all contain elements of socialism. And there's nothing wrong with that. The real problems always revolve around corruption, dictatorship, police States...

The US definitions are total BS, engineered by the 1% in their endless class war against workers. The purpose is to vilify the word, As they have accomplished with the word "liberal". The purpose is to take control of all property which has income earning potential, especially monopoly services and markets.

But Government ownership of natural resources, water projects and generating stations, schools, roads military bases are common in this and every other country, yet Americans continue to insist we are not socialist and never want to be socialist. The war against socialism is really a war over the meaning of the word, which has had little impact on how governments operate until extremists like Thatcher and many US Republicans sell off public assets to private interests. The result is always higher costs for consumers. If thee Capitalists did not see an opportunity to monopolize service or market they would have no incentive to buy the properties.

Socialism: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Communism: a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

So the labeling of any country as just socialist or capitalist is all BS because every country is a blend of both.

#89 | Posted by bayviking at 2019-03-18 08:24 PM | Reply

Helpful hint to make your argument a little stronger: Don't lump Canada and Germany in with China and Russia when you are trying to discuss socialist countries, because they aren't even remotely similar.

#90 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-18 08:42 PM | Reply

"You proved my point, Clown. Lefties are calling things Socialism that aren't Socialism. I have no idea why."

Clown may be a no-kidding socialist. Reference this statement:

"Capitalism is literally the practice of stealing the profits of someone else's labor."

That statement could have been pulled directly from the Communist Manifesto, which itself was based on the long since abandoned labor theory of value. The problem with LTV is it did not provide an accurate reflection of market conditions. You may ase well ascribe vaule to a product based on the amount of energy it reflects back into space. At the same time, you could make equal arguments that labor pulled wealth that should have gone to capital, or that land pulled wealth that should have gone to one of the other factors of production.

"Socialism: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole."

That's not true. Under socialism, the workers would control the means of production. Not the community. An accountant would not have any direct say in how a window factory was managed. And oddly enough, Democratic Socialists (like AOC) would have been seen as somewhat alien by a classical socialist. Socialism was intended to be the workers paradise. Not the non-workers paradise. I think that concept would have incurred as much derision in the Soviet Union as it does here in the US.

#91 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-18 08:46 PM | Reply

Obviously the US definition has no real world example that can be pointed to anywhere with the possible exception of Iran or North Korea and there only because US sanctions prevent trade. Its likely that other entrepreneurs operate there as well. -#89 | POSTED BY BAYVIKING

I disagree. USSR - East Germany - Venezuela - Moaist China- Pol Pot Cambodia - Cuba - N Korea - ALL examples of Marx's and Engels' workers' paradise fully realized.

#92 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-03-18 10:12 PM | Reply

Why do rightwingers know so much about socialism? Maybe you guys should learn about the exaggerated form of your own side of politics, libertarianism, and what a resounding success that form of government is across the globe.

#93 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-18 10:20 PM | Reply

Why do rightwingers know so much about socialism?

Because it's been tried and tested, with disastrous/tragic results. Every time. We paid attention.

Maybe you guys should learn about the exaggerated form of your own side of politics, libertarianism, and what a resounding success that form of government is across the globe.

#93 | POSTED BY JOE

Libertarianism. That would be this country from its inception, mostly up until the New Deal. Looking at were it started and measuring it where it ended up, I'd say it was awfully damn successful by any objective measure. I don't advocate going back to what this country was during that period of time. The net sum of a more regulated economy plus the social safety net has yielded better results overall IMO. Between the 2 extremes I would MUCH prefer the Libertarianism that was this country for roughly 150 years to Communism.

#94 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-03-18 10:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Because it's been tried and tested, with disastrous/tragic results. Every time. We paid attention.
#94 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

All you got are lies.

All you know are lies.

#95 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-03-18 10:37 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Here we go again, all the people that have been brainwashed into hating socialism insisting they and they alone can define it. Einstein saw the profound flaws in Capitalism, flaws which every one living through the great depression saw in plain sight, He was concerned enough that he wrote this piece:

monthlyreview.org

The countries I listed are ALL a blend of socialism and capitalism. Canada is socialist with plenty of Capitalist Corporations. The Chinese have outmaneuvered US Capitalists. So are they Capitalist or Communist? After the Berlin Wall was taken down, Russia turned to the USA to restructure its economy and followed the advice of the State Department and Larry Summers. The result was an Oligarchy, a handful of billionaires followed while average incomes dropped by 50%. This set the stage for the rise of Putin who assumed power after Yeltsin resigned in disgrace.which the Government

Whoever owns something has the right to use it as they see fit without violating law. It is important that those properties which the Government owns be managed for the mutual benefit of all citizens. Private property is for the exclusive benefit of the owner. Some things should never be permitted to fall into private hands. Trump is now using his position to cut Public forests as fast as he can. That should be a crime.

#96 | Posted by bayviking at 2019-03-18 10:53 PM | Reply

All you know are lies.

#95 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

And disingenuous lies at that. There really is no point in arguing with disingenuous liars.

There is only one solution if we survive long enough to choose it. Trumpism must be defeated and humiliated in this election. Trump must be held accountable and now we The People need to retake the Senate like we retook the House.

We have an excellent Republic going here. If WE can keep it.

#97 | Posted by donnerboy at 2019-03-18 11:07 PM | Reply

#95

Apparently Clown has never read any contemporary history.

#98 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-03-18 11:16 PM | Reply

Libertarianism. That would be this country from its inception, mostly up until the New Deal.

JEFFJ

We were largely an agrarian society and robber barons controlled the economy back then. The one that went off the cliff.

Mexico is the modern version of a libertarian society. Little regulation, loads of poverty, robber barons and cartels controlling the economy.

#99 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-18 11:40 PM | Reply

#96

LOL, Canada is probably one of the most free market country outside of the US, and has a far more market-based economy than most countries in Europe. Some Canadian libertarians even argue that Canada is a more capitalist country than the United States. If you are claiming that socialism means the mere existence of some degree of government-provided public services then you are lazily conflating "the existence of any sort of public sector" with socialism.

Textbook socialism entails government ownership and control of traditional profit-making industries and sectors for the economic benefit of citizens, including the provision of labor and distribution of material goods. This does not exist in modern-day Canada and even Canada's "socialized" healthcare sector is actually run in quite a complex way with corporate involvement and can't be generalized as simply "run by the government."

Any corporation run cooperatively by any level of government in Canada exists on the basis of it being deemed an "essential public service" appropriate for government to provide. They do not exist on the basis of socialist ideological principles. Socialism has historically been a very unpopular and taboo ideology in Canada. Even the largest organized socialist party in Canada, the New Democratic Party (the "NDF") in its heyday under Pierre Trudeau was always in the Minority and its main competition, the Parti Quebecois, has only held sway in its own province.

Russia and China were formerly/current communist countries that have now adopted partial free market principles and Germany is the free market powerhouse of the EU.

#100 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-18 11:45 PM | Reply

#98

People like Clown and BayNutVikingBay are so desperate to advance their peculiar versions of "socialism" that they are accusing people of lying and conflating countries like Canada, Russia and China.

TFF

#101 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-18 11:48 PM | Reply

Why do rightwingers know so much about socialism?

What Jeff said, and I also studied comparative politics at UCLA and wrote my senior thesis on this subject.

#102 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-18 11:53 PM | Reply

#99

I agree with your second sentence in that Mexico most closely resembles a libertarian structure with a whole lot of Oligarchy overlapping it. Mexico is largely controlled by a dozen or so families on the one side and the cartels on the other. They each dribble out enough benefits to control the populace and in at least a few instances have cooperated to maintain control.

#103 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-18 11:58 PM | Reply

"Some Canadian libertarians even argue that Canada is a more capitalist country than the United States."

Libertarians sure do love them some free health insurance!

#104 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-03-19 12:02 AM | Reply

Libertarianism. That would be this country from its inception, mostly up until the New Deal

How were things back then?

What was the average life expectancy?

You want to go back to that?

#105 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-19 08:15 AM | Reply

we The People need to retake the Senate

The odds are long. And they're only going to get worse.

By 2040, half the population will live in 8 states. That means 50% of the country will be represented by 16 Senators, and the other 50% will 84 Senators.

Dems better have a plan for this. It doesn't look like they do.

#106 | Posted by JOE at 2019-03-19 08:24 AM | Reply

You want to go back to that?

#105 | POSTED BY JOE

I already addressed that:

Libertarianism. That would be this country from its inception, mostly up until the New Deal. Looking at were it started and measuring it where it ended up, I'd say it was awfully damn successful by any objective measure. I don't advocate going back to what this country was during that period of time. The net sum of a more regulated economy plus the social safety net has yielded better results overall IMO. Between the 2 extremes I would MUCH prefer the Libertarianism that was this country for roughly 150 years to Communism.

#94 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2019-03-18 10:27 PM |

#107 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-03-19 09:11 AM | Reply

"Why do rightwingers know so much about socialism?"

It used to be that everyone knew about socialism, just like they knew about the Bubonic Plague and other epidemics. It just seems that Many on the left have chosen to forget about it.

There was a time when Democrats were harder on socialists that republicans. Pat Macarren (D-NV) was staunchly anti-socialist. And Democrat Charlie Wilson's Operation Cyclone was one of the major contributors to the failure of the Soviet Mission in Afghanistan and the collapse of the socialist Republic.

I guess a better question might be, why don't more people remember?

#108 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 02:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Libertarianism."

Here's the thing. Under a Libertarian government, there would be nothing to stop you and 100 (or 100 million) of your closest friends, pool your resources collectively, and living as a socialist. The only thing you would lack is the right to force others to do so against their will. And let's face it, that's really what you want.

#109 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 03:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Dems better have a plan for this. It doesn't look like they do.

I know, right?

-Abuela Clinton

#110 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-19 03:01 PM | Reply

Socialism is very popular in the western countries that practice it, like Germany, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and many others. High taxes mean a decent retirement, health care, never going hungry, and so much more. Even our neighbor to the north allows for a decent retirement, health care, and never having to go hungry.

Republicans have been trying to define socialism as communism for 90 years. They've failed.

The 'libertarian' society they long for can be witnessed just south of our border.

#111 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 03:01 PM | Reply

"The countries I listed are ALL a blend of socialism and capitalism."

Any socialist program adopted by any country is AABSOLUTELY going to require a capitalist program to support it. Period.

#112 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 03:01 PM | Reply

"The 'libertarian' society they long for can be witnessed just south of our border."

Technically, no. Mexico is characterized by lots of regulation, but little ability to enforce it. Check out gun laws down there. And if you're a Mexican citizen-if you're born in Mexico, you're expected to pay taxes to Mexico, even if you don't live there. You don't get the choice to move away from that state-imposed responsibility.

#113 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 03:03 PM | Reply

BOMBER

U.S. expats only get credit towards their U.S. tax bill based on what they've paid in foreign countries. They are not exempt.

I've spent quite a lot of time in Mexico over the decades. It's as close to the libertarian country many on the U.S. right yearn for as you can find. There is little actual regulation of anything. And it is no utopia. For instance, 90+% of municipalities have no construction regulations at all.

You're on your own in Mexico. Starving? Homeless? Sick? Too bad.

#114 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 03:21 PM | Reply

And y'all always leave out "democratic" before "socialism," which is what is being advocated by some.

"The key difference between socialism and democratic socialism is that democratic socialists don't want the government to own the means of production and socialists do. They believe that certain general social goods like health care should be run by the government, but otherwise support capitalism."

#115 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 03:27 PM | Reply

"I've spent quite a lot of time in Mexico over the decades. It's as close to the libertarian country many on the U.S. right yearn for as you can find."

Really?

Any restrictions on guns? How about drugs?

"The key difference between socialism and democratic socialism is that democratic socialists don't want the government to own the means of production and socialists do. They believe that certain general social goods like health care should be run by the government, but otherwise support capitalism."

Yeah, I know. Corporatism is a far better term, but one that lacks the hipster edge that many on the left in politics are looking for. If you were to use the term corporatism, you would have to explain it to most people. And that takes effort...and is kinda nerdy.

I feel like a lot of western European countries feel obligated to try and separate themselves from the term socialism, even when dudes like Bernie are claiming their greatness for that very reason.

Having some sort of government healthcare system isn't that big of a deal. France does a pretty good job (seemingly...I haven't actually experienced it myself), but would appear to lack consideration in the US. Amongst conservatives, because it's "socialism." Amongst progressives, because it delivered to Americans against their will.

#116 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 05:29 PM | Reply

I feel like a lot of western European countries feel obligated to try and separate themselves from the term socialism, even when dudes like Bernie are claiming their greatness for that very reason.

MADBOMBER

What you feel has no bearing on the sentiments of people living in western democratic socialist countries about their forms of government. In fact, citizens of democratic socialist countries in Europe consistently poll as the happiest populations on earth.

In France, when an ambulance shows up there is usually a doctor and nurse on board. In England, when you're in the hospital you have to stop by the financial office. So they can give you cab fare back to your hotel or place of residence.

One of DR's own was bitten by a fer de lance snake in Costa Rica and spent 2 weeks in the hospital in a private room, receiving 30 something vials of antivenom. His charge when he checked out? In the hundreds of dollars, only charged something because he wasn't a citizen.

I have friends in several European countries and have traveled there many times over the years. They wouldn't dream of trading their system for ours. They're very happy. Weeks of vacation every year, high wages ... yep, they're very happy.

BTW, Mexico's supreme court recently ruled marijuana should not be a criminal offense.

#117 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 06:52 PM | Reply

Socialism is very popular in the western countries that practice it, like Germany, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and many others. High taxes mean a decent retirement, health care, never going hungry, and so much more. Even our neighbor to the north allows for a decent retirement, health care, and never having to go hungry.

That's because it isn't socialism, nor do they call it that. The only people calling it that are the so called "democratic socialists", the Europeans generally call it Compassionate Capitalism, basically a free market economy with a strong social safety net fueled, in large part, by the fact that they have only been spending, historically, about 1% of their GDP on defense.

To put that into perspective, if the US were to cut it's defense spending (3.1% of GDP) down to Nordic levels (1%), that would free up 2.1% of US GDP to spend on the safety net, or $451 Billion a year, which would go a long towards subsidizing H4A.

#118 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-19 07:12 PM | Reply

Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-19 07:12 PM

It's ridiculous that we spend 54% of our discretionary budget on the military.

Russia spends $50 Billion, China $146 Billion.

Too many greedy ------ feeding at the military trough.

#119 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 07:17 PM | Reply

Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-19 07:12 PM

In Denmark, the ruling party is even called "Socialist Democrats"

Germany, France, Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Japan, Australia, Italy, Canada, Norway, Spain, Finland, Ireland, Belgium, New Zealand, Austria, Switzerland or the Netherlands are all countries that have successfully achieved a balance between capitalism and socialism.

#120 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 07:24 PM | Reply

"citizens of democratic socialist countries in Europe consistently poll as the happiest populations on earth."

Which ones are those? I think they all went away when Soviet Socialist Republic went ---- up and the citizens of those client states decided to take a direction other than socialism.

In Denmark, the ruling party is even called "Socialist Democrats"

I think you mean "Social Democrats."

Most countries on earth have A Social Democrat party.

#121 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 07:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Germany, France, Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Japan, Australia, Italy, Canada, Norway, Spain, Finland, Ireland, Belgium, New Zealand, Austria, Switzerland or the Netherlands are all countries that have successfully achieved a balance between capitalism and socialism."

I don't know if balance is the right word. More like capitalist supported socialism. Socialist programs can't survive without capitalism. Not true with the inverse.

#122 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 07:39 PM | Reply

In Denmark, the ruling party is even called "Socialist Democrats"

That is Social Democrats, and even they say you are wrong:

After seeing his country held up as an example in the US presidential debate, Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen used an address at Harvard to explain the Nordic model to a US audience suddenly very interested in Denmark.

Speaking at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, Danish PM Lars Løkke Rasmussen told students that he had "absolutely no wish to interfere the presidential debate in the US" but nonetheless attempted to set the record straight about his country.

"I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy," Rasmussen said.

"The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish," he added.

The PM's comments come after US presidential hopefuls Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton used part of the first Democratic debate to discuss how the United States could emulate Scandinavia.

Danish PM in US: Denmark is not socialist

I know you are desperately trying to argue for the sake of your narrative that EU countries (among others) practice socialism but even they disagree with you.

#123 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-19 07:50 PM | Reply

Democrats through their policies of "Open Borders for all" oppress the millions of minorities in this country.

#7 | Posted by AndreaMackris

Show me an elected democrat with that position.

If democrats were so bad, you wouldnt have to lie about their positions. But their positions actually appeal to americans more than repub positions do, so you have to lie about democrats and try and scare voters away from them.

#124 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-19 07:58 PM | Reply

Socialist programs can't survive without capitalism. Not true with the inverse.

#122 | Posted by madbomber

No one has every tried unregulated capitalism, which would result in a few people getting really rich, then the country collapsing and the capitalists moving on to another host country like locusts.

#125 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-19 07:59 PM | Reply

"No one has every tried unregulated capitalism, which would result in a few people getting really rich, then the country collapsing and the capitalists moving on to another host country like locusts."

Technically, they have. In all the former Socialist territories government by USSR, small markets emerged. These markets were regulated by supply and demand alone.

The free market emerged any time you have a society with needs not being met. And socialism is very good at crating those conditions.

What you describe sounds more like late-stage socialism. See Venezuela as an example.

#126 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 08:07 PM | Reply

It's not that socialism can't work, but for it to be effective those who are able to provide the goods and services needed for a society to survive and prosper would need to do so under conditions where they were providing those goods and services at their own expense. That doesn't necessarily contradict human nature in general...it occurs at the family level all across the world. But we have yet to see it work effectively in large populations.

#127 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 08:16 PM | Reply

"Most countries on earth have A Social Democrat party." - #121 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-19 07:38 PM

There are no countries on earth with a "Social Democrat" party.

None.

#128 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-19 08:35 PM | Reply

Technically, they have. In all the former Socialist territories government by USSR, small markets emerged. These markets were regulated by supply and demand alone
#126 | Posted by madbomber

What you're describing is black market organized crime. Which is regulated by supply, demand, brass knuckles, and guns.

#129 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-03-19 08:41 PM | Reply

Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-03-19 07:50 PM

They are democratic socialists.

Social Democrats (Denmark)

Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist economy. The protocols and norms used to accomplish this involve a commitment to representative and participatory democracy, measures for income redistribution and regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions. Social democracy thus aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater democratic, egalitarian and solidaristic outcomes. Due to longstanding governance by social democratic parties and their influence on socioeconomic policy development in the Nordic countries, in policy circles social democracy has become associated with the Nordic model in the latter part of the 20th century.

en.wikipedia.org


Duh

#130 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-03-19 09:26 PM | Reply

"There are no countries on earth with a "Social Democrat" party."

There are more of them then there are Socialist Democratic parties.

And the world is full of parties who refer to themselves as Social Democrats.

"Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist economy. The protocols and norms used to accomplish this involve a commitment to representative and participatory democracy, measures for income redistribution and regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions. Social democracy thus aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater democratic, egalitarian and solidaristic outcomes. Due to longstanding governance by social democratic parties and their influence on socioeconomic policy development in the Nordic countries, in policy circles social democracy has become associated with the Nordic model in the latter part of the 20th century."

I didn't see the term socialist mentioned once. Did I miss it?

Why do you think the Danes have made such an effort to separate themselves from the notion that they are socialists, while outsider like you try and make the claim they are.

#131 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 09:06 AM | Reply

Depending on the country, Social Democrats also differ in ideology. Some favor nationalist policies, while others don't. A few even favor economics liberalism, which is the diametric opposite of socialism.

#132 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 09:15 AM | Reply

"There are more of them then there are Socialist Democratic parties." - #131 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 09:06 AM

Here is a list of Socialist Democratic parties, which out of the blue you brought up in your #131, the only mention of "Socialist Democratic parties" on this page (until this post).

But it doesn't go unnoticed that you listed not a single "Social Democrat" party, even though you claimed "Most countries on earth have A Social Democrat party".

You didn't list a single one.

None.

Zip.

Nada.

#133 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-20 09:40 AM | Reply

"But it doesn't go unnoticed that you listed not a single "Social Democrat" party, even though you claimed "Most countries on earth have A Social Democrat party".

Do you really want to do this?

The difference between a Social Democrat and a Socialist Democrat is in the naming...Socialist being the operative word. That and Social Democrats maintain power, parity, or presence in most countries around the globe, where as the Socialsi Democrats, assuming that's how they refer to themselves. Are nearly non-existent.

#134 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 11:06 AM | Reply

Of the 9 Socialist Democrat parties you presented, five we defunct, two were extremely minor players, one was not tied to an existing state, and one had rebranded itself as Social Democrats.

#135 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 11:08 AM | Reply

"Of the 9 Socialist Democrat parties you presented..." - #135 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 11:08 AM

I presented no "Socialist Democrat" parties.

None.

Zip.

Nada.

#136 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-20 11:27 AM | Reply

"The difference between a Social Democrat and a Socialist Democrat is in the naming..." - #134 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 11:06 AM

That has absolutely nothing to do with your original, fallacious comment, "Most countries on earth have A Social Democrat party.".

Nothing whatsoever.

#137 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-20 11:30 AM | Reply

Oh...is this some that "the name is missing the 'ic" on the end of Democrat" flavor of -----------?

Is that what this is?

#138 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 11:31 AM | Reply

"Oh...is this some that "the name is missing the 'ic" on the end of Democrat" flavor of -----------?" - #138 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 11:31 AM

Interesting, but very telling, that you refer to your own posting as "-----------."

That will have to be one for the archives.

#139 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-20 11:34 AM | Reply

"That will have to be one for the archives."

You can frame it...put it on your wall. There can't be much else on them.

#140 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 11:49 AM | Reply

#140 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 11:49 AM

You can be a thoughtful politico in your comments, like JeffJ and RoC (and Chris Wallace of Fox News).

Or you can post ----------- comments like sniper and fishpaw (and Rush Limbaugh).

Your choice.

#141 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-20 11:53 AM | Reply

"Your choice."

You should go look in a mirror...and make that same ask of the person you're looking at.

In the meatime, I will respond to ----------- with -----------.

#142 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 11:58 AM | Reply

"I will respond to ----------- with -----------." - #142 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-03-20 11:58 AM

Actually, you started with -----------, and double-downed throughout this thread.

So knock yourself out, sniper, er, fishpaw, er, madbomber.

#143 | Posted by Hans at 2019-03-20 12:03 PM | Reply

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