Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, February 06, 2019

Dr. Barbara Levy: The phrase "late-term abortion" is medically inaccurate and has no clinical meaning. In science and medicine, it's essential to use language precisely. In pregnancy, to be "late term" means to be past 41 weeks gestation, or past a patient's due date. Abortions do not occur in this time period, so the phrase is contradictory.

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"Dr. Barbara Levy: The phrase "late-term abortion" is medically inaccurate and has no clinical meaning. In science and medicine, it's essential to use language precisely. In pregnancy, to be "late term" means to be past 41 weeks gestation, or past a patient's due date. Abortions do not occur in this time period, so the phrase is contradictory.

Dr. Jennifer Conti: In obstetrics, we don't divide pregnancies into terms. "Late term" is an invention of anti-abortion extremists to confuse, mislead and increase stigma. The appropriate language is "abortions later in pregnancy."

Levy: Generally, abortion later in pregnancy refers to abortion that happens at 21 weeks or later, so in the second or third trimester.

Conti: According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, abortions after 21 weeks make up less than 1.3% of all abortions in the United States. This means that abortions that occur beyond 24 weeks make up less than 1% of all procedures.

more at the link

Abortions should be rare, safe, and legal. The mythical rwing rhetoric that has grown up around this and other social/cultural issues is meant to divide and conquer an electorate by pointing away from such things rwing govs fail at, such as Trickle Down economics, voter suppression, and war.... and it werks really well.

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2019-02-06 02:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

pretty good article. NW

#2 | Posted by eberly at 2019-02-06 03:06 PM | Reply

"invention of anti-abortion extremists to confuse, mislead and increase stigma."

The confusion is easily remedied by the thought experiment where the anti-abortionist is forced to choose which one to save in a fire: The newborn, or the Petri dish with a fertilized egg in it.

It's the Petri dish, right? Way easier to carry. No chance of it spitting up on you, no diapers to change, no birthdays to remember, no name to forget.

#3 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-06 04:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I knew a girl who was pregnant, the fetus died at about 8 months.

She was going to ride it out and go through the whole thing, but she aborted it because it was ******* her up when random people would ask her how far along she was, if they could touch her belly, etc.

Bottom line, anyone who isn't directly involved in a decision like this really needs to stay out of it.

#4 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2019-02-06 04:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"I knew a girl who was pregnant, the fetus died at about 8 months."

Some Anti-abortionists favor "fetal personhood" laws where the state would be compelled to investigate that death -- and any miscarriage -- as a potential homicide.

#5 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-06 04:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"Bottom line, anyone who isn't directly involved in a decision like this really needs to stay out of it."

Exactly.

#6 | Posted by danni at 2019-02-06 04:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

So you guys are saying the state should have ZERO interest in infanticide?

Does that also apply to homicide?

#7 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-06 04:50 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

LOL

#8 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-06 04:53 PM | Reply

How can a fetus die by infanticide? Its by definition not an infant.

#9 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2019-02-06 04:54 PM | Reply

JeffJ can't participate in this conversation without falling back on his deliberately inflammatory and false language.

He just can't.

It's an intellectual disability, but it's not one we should accomodate.

#10 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-06 04:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"JeffJ can't participate in this conversation without falling back on his deliberately inflammatory and false language."

Jeff is certainly not the most talented sophist the Retort has ever seen but he might be the most dedicated to the cause.

#11 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2019-02-06 05:37 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"So in this particular example, if a mother's in labour, I can tell you exactly what would happen," he told WTOP's Ask the Governor programme Wednesday.

"The infant would be delivered, the infant would be kept comfortable, the infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.

Delivered, then killed = infanticide

#12 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-06 07:03 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#12 deliberately leaves out the very first sentence of Northam's explanation.

See if you can tell why!

"It's done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that's non-viable. So in this particular example..."

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-06 07:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

JeffJ can't participate in this conversation without falling back on his deliberately inflammatory and false language.

He just can't.

It's an intellectual disability, but it's not one we should accomodate.

#10 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Killing a baby in the 4th trimester or during labor or just after birth - ALL infanticide.

That's reality and it's not my fault that it makes you and Hagbard uncomfortable.

#14 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-06 07:29 PM | Reply | Funny: 3 | Newsworthy 1

"It's done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that's non-viable. So in this particular example..."

#13 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Here's the thing - the bill as written doesn't limit these instances to when the baby has severe deformities or one that is nonviable. It makes no such restrictions whatsoever.

So, why do these babies die? The Guttmacher Institute has looked at the reasons for late-term abortion, and the reasons are chilling. First, the top-line finding is clear: "[D]ata suggest that most women seeking later terminations are not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment." Instead, there were "five general profiles of women who sought later abortions, describing 80% of the sample." These women were "raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous [had never given birth]."

www.nationalreview.com

Here's a link to the study that is being cited in my quote above:

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

#15 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-06 07:34 PM | Reply | Funny: 3

#14 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

No matter how bad you people want to kill it, an unborn baby is a fetus, not an infant.

#16 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2019-02-06 07:34 PM | Reply

Dr Jones,

When we get into the 4th trimester or are talking about abortion during labor...it's infanticide.

Your Wikipedia definition is a distinction without a difference once fetal development has reached that stage.

#17 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-06 07:38 PM | Reply | Funny: 3

Okay, you can ignore the definitions all you want, it still isn't infanticide. Infanticide is the intentional killing of an infant. Saving a mother is not intentionally killing a baby, its just saving a life.

The notion that you should kill a mother for the slim chance of saving a severely ill infant is lunacy. That's like asking someone to murder a person to save a used condom.

#18 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2019-02-06 07:49 PM | Reply

"When we get into the 4th trimester or are talking about abortion during labor...it's infanticide."

See, it's like I said.

JeffJ simply can't have this conversation without using the word infanticide.

But has he ever called harvesting organs from an brain-dead organ donor motorcycle crash victim murder?

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-06 07:49 PM | Reply

Apparently extremist rwing rhetoric becomes fact after being repeated loudly a certain number of times.

#20 | Posted by Corky at 2019-02-06 07:52 PM | Reply

Heck, JeffJ wouldn't dare call it murder when the state straps a defenseless person into the electic chair and fries them, even when that person was innocent and justice was miscarried. (Interesting term that, miscarriage of justice...)

But cutting up a non-viable fetus into smaller pieces so it can be extracted with minimal harm to the mother? That can only ever be murder.

#21 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-06 07:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#12 | POSTED BY HOMERJ

Where is that quote from?

Why does that nutcase think people are birthing and then killing healthy children?

Also why do you think its an abortion if the kid was born? That makes no sense.

That's some wisdog level mental gymnastics right there.

#22 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2019-02-06 07:57 PM | Reply

"The notion that you should kill a mother for the slim chance of saving a severely ill infant is lunacy.
#18 | POSTED BY INDIANAJONES"

That specific event is so insane, and the public outrage over requiring a mother to be sacrificed, is what tipped the scales and pushed heavily Catholic Ireland to legalize abortion.

JeffJ is okay with that murder.

#23 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-06 07:59 PM | Reply

Nobody is talking about killing the mother.

I expect asinine straw men from Snoofy, Dr Jones, but not from you.

I posted a link and a quote that lays out the circumstances under which an overwhelming majority of late term abortions are performed. None of those scenarios are what you guys are dredging up.

#24 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-06 08:16 PM | Reply

I've got work to do in the basement. I'll try to pop back on later.

#25 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-06 08:17 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Nobody is talking about killing the mother."

Who is John Galt... I mean Savita Halappanavar
en.wikipedia.org

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-06 10:06 PM | Reply

Snoofy is quoting Atlas Shrugged? Now I've seen it all!

#27 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-06 11:36 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

JeffJ wouldn't dare call it murder when the state straps a defenseless person into the electic chair and fries them, even when that person was innocent and justice was miscarried

Seems reasonable ... as the government determines the laws, and murder is in violation of the law.

Aren't you one of those socialist? Government can do no wrong?

#28 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-02-06 11:54 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

mother to be sacrificed,

What hyperbole is this? Where did you read this?

Sorry Snoofy, you are getting Corkyesk. Get out of your funk, have a beer...

#29 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-02-06 11:55 PM | Reply

I am all for women having complete control over their bodies but aborting a fetus after it is able to live outside the womb without medical intervention should not occur. Pregnant women should be given sufficient counseling very early in their pregnancy to eliminate the possibility of having to abort a viable fetus.

#30 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2019-02-07 01:29 AM | Reply

When discussing abortion, there is one unavoidable fact. Women who want abortions will get abortions. The only question is whether or not they will be safe abortions. Ignore that fact all you want but later on you will read about the deaths of women who sought abortions from whoever was willing to perform them. There is a reason why the coat hanger is a symbol of the pro-choice movement. Every woman who dies from an illegal abortion is on the conscience of every person who worked to deprive her of a safe abortion. As in most things, religious extremism is a negative thing that hurts society and individuals. All over the world we see that affect, why then do we tolerate it here?

#31 | Posted by danni at 2019-02-07 07:08 AM | Reply

Danni

What about late term abortions where the baby is viable and the mother's health is not at risk?

#32 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-07 07:17 AM | Reply | Funny: 2

No matter how bad you people want to kill it, an unborn baby is a fetus, not an infant.

#16 | POSTED BY INDIANAJONES

Exactly, and once it becomes an infant that's where the alt-right considers them "fair game", and if they are brown in hue, throw them in a cage, and let them die.

But, hey, at least that brown child wasn't aborted right?

These religiously insane kooks on the alt-right care more about the unborn than they do the current living.

Talk about effed in the head....

#33 | Posted by aborted_monson at 2019-02-07 08:06 AM | Reply

Only 13% of the public and 18% of Democrats approve of late term abortion in situations other than the mother's life being in danger.

#34 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-07 09:40 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

I'm trying to give these people the benefit of the doubt, that they're only talking about non-elective procedures involving extreme birth complications and terminal anomalies in fetal development, but they're doing an extrmely poor job of explaining it.

#35 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-02-07 12:48 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#32 | Posted by JeffJ

That doesn't happen, you disingenuous jack ass.

#36 | Posted by Angrydad at 2019-02-07 02:24 PM | Reply

That doesn't happen, you disingenuous jack ass.

#36 | POSTED BY ANGRYDAD

Um, yes it does.

I provided a link in #15. Please check it out for yourself. I was quite shocked when I read it.

#37 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-07 02:39 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

I'm trying to give these people the benefit of the doubt, that they're only talking about non-elective procedures involving extreme birth complications and terminal anomalies in fetal development, but they're doing an extrmely poor job of explaining it.

#35 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

That's because the language in the bills doesn't limit this to the scenarios they are coming up with.

#38 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-07 02:40 PM | Reply

"Snoofy is quoting Atlas Shrugged? Now I've seen it all!
#27 | POSTED BY JEFFJ"

About that. I'm pretty sure you still haven't seen the linked article. Here it is again,

Death of Savita Halappanavar
en.wikipedia.org

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-07 02:40 PM | Reply

Have any of these people who oppose abortion in all situations ever seen what happens when a woman isn't given an abortion though she needs one to stay alive?

#40 | Posted by Tor at 2019-02-07 02:47 PM | Reply

#37 | Posted by JeffJ

Looks like somebody can't tell the difference between 20 and 36.

And your article dosen't differentiate.

#41 | Posted by Angrydad at 2019-02-07 04:11 PM | Reply

What Jeffy is really afraid of is becoming removed from the equation all together....

It looks like nature is already fixing the problem... nipping it in the ol' bud... so to speak.

www.theatlantic.com

I think eradicating sperm would solve a lot of problems.

#42 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2019-02-07 05:31 PM | Reply

"Only 13% of the public and 18% of Democrats approve of late term abortion in situations other than the mother's life being in danger."

That's an easy statistic to proclaim however none of those people should have opinions. This is a matter to be discussed by the woman, her doctor and possibly her husband. No one else gets an opinion. If her husband is willing to risk her health by demanding she carry the fetus to term then he loses his right to have and opinion too.

#43 | Posted by danni at 2019-02-08 06:27 AM | Reply

This is a great read. Forget the semantics, less that 1% of abortions occur after 24 weeks of pregnancy and are entirely due to either the fetus will not survive or the mother's life is in danger. How conservatives don´t understand this is a mystery.

#44 | Posted by CrisisStills at 2019-02-08 06:55 AM | Reply

Crisis,

Check out my link in #17. According to that study your conclusion is flat wrong. And given the number of abortions performed 1% is still a big number.

#45 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-08 07:57 AM | Reply

Danni,

So you favor zero restrictions on abortion?

#46 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-02-08 07:58 AM | Reply

"So you favor zero restrictions on abortion? "

It's a medical procedure, it's something to be discussed by a woman and her doctor. Neither you, nor I should enter into that conversation.

#47 | Posted by danni at 2019-02-08 08:05 AM | Reply

"This is a great read. Forget the semantics, less that 1% of abortions occur after 24 weeks of pregnancy and are entirely due to either the fetus will not survive or the mother's life is in danger. How conservatives don´t understand this is a mystery."

They understand but choose not to believe actual facts just like they do on Global WArming and lots of other things. The believe because it gives them political power not because they honestly believe. Conservatives are really about 2 things; anti-regulation and low taxes. All the other issues the pretend to believe in are just ruses to bring in their voting blocks full of idiots. The "Evangelical Christians," the "2nd Amendment nutjobs," the "pro-Israel Zionists," the whole lot of them don't really matter to real Republicans who really only want to destroy regulatory agencies and cut taxes. Pretend otherwise all you want but most of us already know you're lying.

#48 | Posted by danni at 2019-02-08 08:10 AM | Reply

"When we get into the 4th trimester or are talking about abortion during labor...it's infanticide."

Do you believe this is being done cavalierly?

#49 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-02-08 10:41 AM | Reply

"Danni,
So you favor zero restrictions on abortion? "

I support medical procedures being conducted as medical procedures. Do you support limits on other medical procedures? Doctors and patients need to make decisions according to what is best for the patient without outside interference.

#50 | Posted by danni at 2019-02-08 10:50 AM | Reply

Just change the abortion laws to state "Any living being without an official birthday is not protected by abortion laws".

Argument done. Obviously there will be people who disagree wholeheartedly about that, and they have a right to believe so, it at least gets rid of the question "When exactly is something alive".

#51 | Posted by humtake at 2019-02-08 01:02 PM | Reply

22 - The esteemed governor of Virginia.

Deliver the baby, make it comfortable and then make the decision to kill it (if that's what Mom wants. She is a Mom, she just gave birth).

WASHINGTON -- Virginia Democratic Gov. Ralph Northam is facing backlash after he voiced his support for a state measure that would significantly loosen restrictions on late-term abortions.

"[Third trimester abortions are] done in cases where there may be severe deformities. There may be a fetus that's nonviable. So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen," Northam, a pediatric neurosurgeon, told Washington radio station WTOP. "The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."

#52 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-08 07:11 PM | Reply

"And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."

Notice how he calls her a mother here?? Gotcha.

#53 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-08 07:13 PM | Reply

"Any living being without an official birthday is not protected by abortion laws".

That's actually more permissive of abortion than Roe, but since you're a lifelong dumbass, you don't know that.

Seems like the coathanger your mom tried to scrape you out with did some real lasting damage.

#54 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 07:20 PM | Reply

Infanticide used to be legal and children weren't even seen as people. Then a bunch of SJW conservatives came along and said we weren't allowed to abuse or kill children, but do they care about them after they become adults? Oh no, damn hypocrites.

#55 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-02-08 07:20 PM | Reply

"but do they care about them after they become adults"

Which party passed the law allowing young adults to stay on their parents health insurance till age 26, and which party voted to repeal that law 62 times?

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 07:23 PM | Reply

22 - ANY comment Dr. Jones/ or do you know infanticide when you hear it?

Anyone one else what to take a shot at the Y this is not infanticide? Deliver the baby decide what the mom wants, if she wants to kill it. Make it comfortable then take care of the job. Clearly infanticide

#57 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-08 10:12 PM | Reply

Infanticide used to be legal and children weren't even seen as people. Then a bunch of SJW conservatives came along and said we weren't allowed to abuse or kill children, but do they care about them after they become adults? Oh no, damn hypocrites.

#55 | POSTED BY SENTINEL AT 2019-02-08 07:20 PM | REPLY

Caging children is abuse. piss off.

#58 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2019-02-08 10:14 PM | Reply

"Deliver the baby decide what the mom wants, if she wants to kill it. Make it comfortable then take care of the job. Clearly infanticide"

We don't call it murder when you pull the plug on grandpa.
We call it death with dignity.
The same concept applies to non-viable infants.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 10:16 PM | Reply

Not a unviable tissue mass huh, Sno? Baby?

#60 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-08 10:20 PM | Reply

Did you even graduate high school?

#61 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 10:21 PM | Reply

What the F are you talking about what? A baby was delivered, if it's decided the baby shouldn't live, it's killed. That infanticide. I understand definitionS.

#62 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-08 10:24 PM | Reply

4th trimester abortion.

#63 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-08 10:25 PM | Reply

What else do we kill after it's born?

#64 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-08 10:26 PM | Reply

Is there a time limit? Like two years after it's born when I'm really mad at it because it is telling me no. Can I Kill my baby then? What if I get a doctor say to say it's OK and it's mentally unhealthy for me to have this baby?

#65 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-08 10:28 PM | Reply

What else do we kill after it's born?

#64 | POSTED BY HOMERJ AT 2019-02-08 10:26 PM | REPLY

everything.

#66 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2019-02-08 10:34 PM | Reply

OK I got it you got nothing. Give me the list. What people in life do we kill other than people that have been put through the legal system?

#67 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-08 10:37 PM | Reply

You guys are starting our own really slippery slope. I'm surprised you don't see that. Most of you seem intelligent, most of the time.

#68 | Posted by homerj at 2019-02-08 10:37 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"What people in life do we kill other than people that have been put through the legal system?"

we bomb everyone. how dense are you?

#69 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2019-02-08 10:41 PM | Reply

"You guys are starting our own really slippery slope."

What's gonna happen, we end up legalizing the death penalty or something?

#70 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 10:44 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Can I Kill my baby then?"

Get pregnant and we'll talk.

#71 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 10:45 PM | Reply

"What else do we kill after it's born?"

Organ donors.

#72 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 10:45 PM | Reply

"What people in life do we kill other than people that have been put through the legal system?"

Do people become lumps of tissue once they get put through the legal system, HomerJ?

#73 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 10:48 PM | Reply

Since apparently it's now necessary to state the blisteringly obvious, here goes.

If somehow this law legalizes moms ordering doctors to kill perfectly healthy neonates just because mom doesn't want a baby, first of all, mom will have to do quite a bit of doctor shopping, though probably less if she's black, to find a doctor to oblige her. But more importantly, that angle of the law can be revoked and it isn't a problem, either with me, or with Roe v. Wade.

Roe v Wade navigates the issue of when is a fetus enough of a person to warrant State intervention in how a private individual manages their pregnancy remarkably well. I'm not sure how people come to these all or nothing positions. But I'm pretty sure it's because they're simpletons.

#74 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 11:09 PM | Reply

"and the mother's health is not at risk?"

The mother's life is always at risk.

#75 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-02-08 11:14 PM | Reply

HomerJ if I implanted a fetus into your abdomen and attached it to your guts and arteries, do you have to make sure not to hurt it when you get it extracted?

What if there was no way to safely remove it, do you just have to live with it?

#76 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 11:16 PM | Reply

implant a fetus in his head so he'll have a brain.

#77 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2019-02-08 11:27 PM | Reply

The reason I throw stones at people like HomerJ is because it works. They run away.

They're failures, but they need constant reminder that they're failures, or they start acting like they know things.

Stay in school, kids!

#78 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-02-08 11:39 PM | Reply

we bomb everyone. how dense are you?
#69 | POSTED BY ALEXANDRITE

Not everyone how dense are you...

We don't call it murder when you pull the plug on grandpa.

murder: is whether its legal ... and the government owns legal ... so thanks big government.

#79 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-02-09 12:28 AM | Reply

we bomb everyone. how dense are you?
#69 | POSTED BY ALEXANDRITE

Not everyone how dense are you...

AndreaMattress is a literalist.

Alexandrite is made of granite.

#80 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-02-09 12:45 AM | Reply

Alexandrite is a gem...

What a wasted chance to be punny.

😖

#81 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-02-09 12:52 AM | Reply | Funny: 2

mom will have to do quite a bit of doctor shopping... to find a doctor to oblige her.

#74 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Just wait till betsy devos dips her greasy hands into medical schools.

#82 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2019-02-09 02:17 AM | Reply

murder: is whether its legal ... and the government owns legal ... so thanks big government.

#79 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

Why do you people condemn government behavior while habitually electing overt criminals and con artists?

#83 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2019-02-09 02:19 AM | Reply

I guess we could go back to the law of the classical era, when the head of the house could kill a child who brought shame upon the family or was in general a disappointment. We will just call it an abortion in the 60th trimester.

#84 | Posted by docnjo at 2019-02-09 03:08 AM | Reply

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