Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Thursday, December 06, 2018

To understand Venezuela's collapse, the Guardian travelled hundreds of miles across the nation Chávez dreamed of transforming, from the spot in downtown Caracas where he gave his first speech as president-elect to his birthplace in the country's sun-scorched southwestern plains.

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Really sad what has happened to Venezuela, they are anticipated to have 1,000,000% inflation this year alone.

Once Maduro can no longer pay the Army (which is the only thing keeping him in power at this point) he is done.

#1 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-12-06 03:06 PM | Reply

I just saw this article at RealClearPolitics and read through about half of it.

Socialism destroys countries.

#2 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-12-06 03:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Venezuela is a perfect example of just how completely the US can destroy the economy of a nation within America's sphere of influence if really set out to so. We did the same thing to Cuba. But they at least had Russia propping them up. Venezuela's disaster is not so much any failure of socialism, but rather a success of America's unleashed and unfettered economic aggression against a smaller nation that defied us and insulted us.

#3 | Posted by moder8 at 2018-12-06 03:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Maduro thanks Putin, again, for helping him survive.

www.google.com

#4 | Posted by nullifidian at 2018-12-06 03:14 PM | Reply

for taking more than a billion dollars in bribes and even the chavistas fear this is the tip of the iceberg of corruption.

Wow. Makes you wonder how many wealthy Venezuelans in Miami came into their money via this manner.

#5 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2018-12-06 03:19 PM | Reply

We have our own strongman now. Our own Chavez and Putin all wrapped up in one. He tells the justice dept who to jail. He walks into companies and tells them how to run. He tells the people what the truth is.

#6 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-12-06 03:28 PM | Reply

"Socialism destroys countries.
#2 | POSTED BY JEFFJ"

Not in northern Europe it doesn't.
I wonder why you don't wonder why.

#7 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 03:28 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

That's because they're market economies with high taxation, not socialist utopias of collectively owned property.

#8 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-06 03:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"they are anticipated to have 1,000,000% inflation this year alone."

Is that going to be worse for the rich or the poor?

Is it being done by the rich or the poor... or is it being done by La Mano Invisible?

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 03:32 PM | Reply

"not socialist utopias of collectively owned property.
#8 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG"

Statoil is a socialist utopia of collectively owned property, Sitzgrieg.

I don't know why you insist on saying things you know to be false. Do you?

#10 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 03:34 PM | Reply

#3

Wrong.

US Sanctions against individuals and government owned entities like PVDSA didn't happen until 2014, long after Chavez nationalized their major cash cow (oil) and then literally stopped reinvesting oil revenues into development and maintenance so that it could prop up the government by making major handouts to his base. Couple that with a plunge in oil prices from $100 to $25/bbl (thanks to OPEC, not the US) and the seeds for this catastrophe were sown. After that, Maduro kept letting his ministers pillage the coffers while the economy was sinking and now the place is a total mess.

This article is from 2016 while Obama was still in charge, before the Trump Administration started escalating individual sanctions against Maduro and his ministers and it has only gotten worse.

4 reasons why Venezuela became the world's worst economy

#11 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-12-06 03:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

European and Scandanavian countries are not socialist countries.

#12 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-12-06 03:46 PM | Reply | Funny: 3 | Newsworthy 1

Chavez nationalized their major cash cow (oil) and then literally stopped reinvesting oil revenues

That's what you consider socialism?

No wonder you're always WrongOCenter.

#13 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 03:51 PM | Reply

European and Scandanavian countries are not socialist countries.
#12 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Do you really believe this?

Perhaps you should do some research.

#14 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 03:52 PM | Reply

That's because they're market economies with high taxation,
#8 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

So, socialist.

Where services funded by the citizens are provided to its citizens.

#15 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 03:54 PM | Reply

What's with the obsession with Venezuela?

Is this supposed to be a cautionary tale of what would happen to the U.S. if Americans had affordable health care, or the minimum wage was raised to $15 an hour?

#16 | Posted by schifferbrains at 2018-12-06 03:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Couple that with a plunge in oil prices from $100 to $25/bbl (thanks to OPEC, not the US)

America doesn't have a voice or influence in OPEC?

We're so incapable.

#17 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 03:55 PM | Reply

#16

Nailed it!

#18 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 03:57 PM | Reply

"What's with the obsession with Venezuela"

a) it isn't here
b) the issues are opaque, complex and not ubiquitous
c) it is vague enough that --------- like rightoecentre can manufacture and insert all kinds of --------, (because of a, and b)

#19 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2018-12-06 03:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"European and Scandanavian countries are not socialist countries.
#12 | POSTED BY JEFFJ"

Instead of saying what they're not, try telling us what they actually are.

Good luck!

#20 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 04:01 PM | Reply

If the state simply owning a few companies is what makes it socialist then America is a socialist country.

We're not, obviously.

All of the countries in the so-called Nordic model of socialism is a free market economy with individual rights, high taxes that soak the poor, and way too many white people for my comfort.

#21 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-06 04:04 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#21

Most of us define socialism as the government taxing everyone in order to provide basic human assistance to its citizens.

Basic assistance is healthcare. Education. Support for the poor and needy. Basically what FDR's New Deal was created to do.

Most of us would be happy if tax rates were rolled back to what they were in the 50s and 60s and wages could afford what they did in the 50s and 60s.

You know. When America's economy was actually great.

#22 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 04:13 PM | Reply

European and Scandanavian countries are not socialist countries.
#12 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Your aversion to facts makes Newt so proud.

#23 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-06 04:22 PM | Reply

Same old tiresome arguments. Everything government does is socialism. Nordic countries are socialist. Blame America First(tm) when some actual socialism collapses. Never blame socialism. Claim it wasn't "real socialism". It was poorly implemented. The next time it will work. Etc., etc.

This has been going on since 1917 with Leftist intellectuals making excuses for their new utopias. A good book that documents the horrible track record of gullible Western leftists is:

en.wikipedia.org

#24 | Posted by nullifidian at 2018-12-06 04:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Is this supposed to be a cautionary tale of what would happen to the U.S.
#16 | POSTED BY SCHIFFERBRAINS

Its a cautionary tale of what happens when you tie your economy to oil. Its a preview of the fate of a conservative-valued United States.

#25 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-06 04:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Scandinavian countries are mixed economies that deploy both capitalist and socialist paradigms, depending on which tool is best suited to achieve the desired economic outcome.

The problem JeffJ has is he can't ever imagine a situation where a socialist paradigm offers an optimal solution to an American problem.

His thoughts about socialism are on par with a dog that's terrified of all cats because of that one cat that ------ him up as a puppy, and he never recovered. It's all rooted in unconquered childhood fear.

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 04:25 PM | Reply

"Its a cautionary tale of what happens when you tie your economy to oil."

As though that tale hasn't been told once a decade or so in Texas, Oklahoma, more recently North Dakota...

#27 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 04:26 PM | Reply

Then you should go back to calling that what it is, welfare and military spending.

The traditional definitions are a state directed economy, or a transition state between capitalism and communism. The Nordic countries are not either of those.

Tragically, you can call Venezuela a socialist country because they tried to transition to Communism, at least in rhetoric. In practice it did not work out so hot. Their price controls have been as effective as Trump's tariffs.

#28 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-06 04:32 PM | Reply

Socialism has a specific definition and meaning. It doesn't translate to 'government'.

I'll repeat:

European and Scandanavian countries are not socialist countries.

#29 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-12-06 04:35 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

#29 Except they are. No matter how hard you will it, jeff, you'll never change objective reality. Here' s the definition of socialism, since you seem to be struggling worse than normal: "a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

Uh oh. Sounds like if we're being pedantic about the definition even the US is a socialist country.

#30 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-06 04:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Now if Chavez had said "Yeah, but I won't be here" the DR rrriiiiiggghhhtttt would be praising him for his honesty...

#31 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2018-12-06 04:51 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

Everything government does is socialism.

Don't believe anyone has ever said this. Perhaps you can ask Hans to help you search for anyone who ever suggested as much.

Nordic countries are socialist.

Social democracies. You know. What people want when they say socialism.

Blame America First(tm) when some actual socialism collapses.

If the show fits...

Never blame socialism.

Especially when it's not socialism, but fascism.

Claim it wasn't "real socialism".

Cause it wasn't.

It was poorly implemented.

Or was never implemented.

The next time it will work.

The next time it's actually implemented will be the first time it's ever been implemented.

#32 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 04:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I'll repeat:

European and Scandanavian countries are not socialist countries."

I'll repeat:

Instead of saying what they're not, try telling us what they actually are.

Good luck!

(You going for a three-peat, JeffJ?)

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 05:11 PM | Reply

Hey Danni, whatever happened to you and Hugo? You used to be thick as thieves. You used to lecture us about how he was changing the world, how he was embarrassing all us capitalist pigs - remember? (Sigh!) Now half the population is on "Rat Patrol". You know, see a rat, kill a rat, eat a rat. Some socialist paradise.

#34 | Posted by Spork at 2018-12-06 05:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

#34 | POSTED BY SPORK

Have you come out of the closet to confess what your old username was?

#35 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 05:49 PM | Reply

Better than your reason, which is to seek a mate, slappy.

#36 | Posted by Spork at 2018-12-06 05:51 PM | Reply

I'll repeat:

European and Scandanavian countries are not socialist countries.

#29 | Posted by JeffJ

Why would you keep repeating something that isn't true?

You think if you say it enough it will BECOME true?

You aint trump.

#37 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-06 05:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

--Why would you keep repeating something that isn't true?

Wrong.

Next.

#38 | Posted by nullifidian at 2018-12-06 06:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#38

That comment must have seemed more clever to you before you posted it.

#39 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 06:12 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#36 | POSTED BY SPORK

So you're too embarrassed with your old username to reveal it.

Based on your current posts, you'll be changing your username again.

Pathetic.

#40 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 06:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

So you're too embarrassed with your old username to reveal it.

Based on your current posts, you'll be changing your username again.

Pathetic.

#40 | Posted by ClownShack

Spork was goatman.

Goatman needed a mulligan after reducing himself to a laughingstock.

#41 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-06 06:28 PM | Reply

No way Spork is Goatman.

Though Goatman's feet probably resemble a Spork after losing so many toes to Diabeetus.

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 06:33 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Spork was goatman.

If so, his level of discourse has greatly diminished.

I actually enjoyed some conversations with Goatman. We didn't agree on everything. But he had a conversational style to his posts which made him easy to engage in conversation.

Spork has yet to post anything worth discussing. He seems to be more interested in poorly trolling.

Goatman was one of our better trolls.

#43 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 06:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If you didn't throw out insults Goatman was mostly civil in his responses.

He could be annoying but he was smart and had some interesting anecdotes. He was awesome any time a cooking discussion was to be had.

#44 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-12-06 06:35 PM | Reply

Can you imagine what America would be like after 20 years of Trump?

Or better yet... can you even imagine the World still existing after 20 years of Trump?

Me either.

#45 | Posted by donnerboy at 2018-12-06 06:37 PM | Reply

Instead of saying what they're not, try telling us what they actually are.

Good luck!

(You going for a three-peat, JeffJ?)

#33 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Sitz already did that. See #21 and #28. Venezuela is a socialist country. Germany is not.

#46 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-12-06 06:37 PM | Reply

I'm pretty sure Spork is Rex.

#47 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-12-06 06:38 PM | Reply

Speaking of new usernames, how relieved is everyone that sheeple only tried one new username before he realized he couldn't disguise his stupidity enough for anyone to buy it?

#48 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-06 06:39 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I'm still in touch with Goat and trust me, he doesn't miss this place in the slightest so there is no reason for him to pull a JTosser and create his own "Sekekai".

#49 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-12-06 06:40 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

I'm pretty sure Spork is Rex.

#47 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2018-12-06 06:38 PM | REPLY

Well, they both have the IQ of lint...

#50 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2018-12-06 06:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Venezuela is a socialist country. Germany is not.

Venezuela is as socialist as North Korea or Soviet Russia. Calling yourself socialist doesn't make it so.

Germany is a social democracy. They tax their citizens and provide them with social services such as healthcare and education. As well as a 3 week vacation for its citizens.

#51 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 06:45 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

there is no reason for him to pull a JTosser and create his own "Sekekai".

JTosseRigelSekeki is one of the dumbest trolls on the DR.

#52 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 06:47 PM | Reply

#30 | POSTED BY INDIANAJONES AT 2018-12-06 04:44 PM | REPLY

That's not the only one. This topic is about 20 years of Chavez. Chavez's party is (was?) a nationalist, marxist ideology with a dash of Bolivarian -- imperialism rhetoric.

In the context of marxist ideologies, the definition of socialism is: "a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism"

It's a bit strange in this context, since they rejected the Soviet version of communism as a failed idea, but went with an authoritarian, command economy anyways.

#53 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-06 06:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I'm pretty sure you guys are high.

#54 | Posted by Spork at 2018-12-06 06:52 PM | Reply

I'm pretty sure you guys are high.
#54 | POSTED BY SPORK

Not yet.

#55 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 06:54 PM | Reply

Venezuela is as socialist as North Korea or Soviet Russia. Calling yourself socialist doesn't make it so.
Germany is a social democracy.

#51 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-12-06 06:45 PM | REPLY

Democracy is not required to be a socialist. Your moving the goal posts so only "nice" countries are socialists and it fits a narrative.

#56 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-06 07:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Venezuela is a perfect example of just how completely the US can destroy the economy of a nation within America's sphere of influence if really set out to so."

Nope.

What was clearly demonstrated in Venezuela is that socialism is dead without capitalism to support it. A lesson that we as humans can't seem to ingest.

#57 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 07:20 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

"Is this supposed to be a cautionary tale of what would happen to the U.S. if Americans had affordable health care, or the minimum wage was raised to $15 an hour?"

It's serves as a cautionary tale of what happens in a society when a relatively small number of revenue generators are arbitrarily tasked with serving the needs of a much larger segment of the population that are unable or unwilling to fund their own existence. The only difference between the situation in Venezuela and the one in Soviet Russia is that the Russians were more effective at ensuring their most productive citizens didn't leave; through either positive or negative incentivization. Chavez was not able to take those same steps that were needed to ensure the success of socialism.

#58 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 07:35 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

What was clearly demonstrated in Venezuela is that socialism is dead without capitalism to support it. A lesson that we as humans can't seem to ingest.

#57 | Posted by madbomber

And what is being demonstrated in america is that capitalism will die without socialism to keep the plutocrats from sucking up all the wealth in the country.

#59 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-06 07:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"It's serves as a cautionary tale of what happens in a society when a relatively small number of revenue generators"

Venezuela's primary revenue generator is oil.

"are arbitrarily tasked with serving the needs of a much larger segment of the population that are unable or unwilling to fund their own existence."

Are Venezuelans unable to turn themselves into oil, or just unwilling?

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 07:40 PM | Reply

This thread in one image
mobile.twitter.com

#61 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2018-12-06 07:43 PM | Reply

"The next time it's actually implemented will be the first time it's ever been implemented."

The next time?

I think the previous times have resulted in dumpster fires that were sufficient to convince most people that it's not worth another try.

#62 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 07:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Your moving the goal posts so only "nice" countries are socialists and it fits a narrative.

I'm not moving anything.

European countries and other social democracies collect a high percent of taxes from their citizens. They use this money to create a strong government and give back (a lot) to their citizens.

You have yet to acknowledge this because it spoils the narrative that socialism is evil and dysfunctional.

Venezuela has the second (?) biggest oil reserves. So. Why is it's economy failing? Couldn't be because capitalist America was pissed off Hugo Chavez wouldn't submit to our demands, right? Doesn't have anything to do with sanctions. Nope. Don't even look over there. Just focus on socialism and equate it with failure.

#63 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 07:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

the previous times have resulted in dumpster fires that were sufficient to convince most people that it's not worth another try.
#62 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Please list countries who utilize socialism and aren't fascists disguised as socialists.

#64 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 07:47 PM | Reply

What was clearly demonstrated in Venezuela is...

...morons don't know the difference between socialism and fascism.

#65 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 07:48 PM | Reply

"And what is being demonstrated in America is that capitalism will die without socialism to keep the plutocrats from sucking up all the wealth in the country."

We'd be better of following the Venezuelan example?

"Venezuela's primary revenue generator is oil."

No, VZ's primary revenue generator is the enterprise which converts oil into some form of currency.

"Are Venezuelans unable to turn themselves into oil, or just unwilling?"

I think that the average Venezuelan would be more than happy to go back to days when VZ was not a failed state...it's just that the Chavistas can't let it happen because it would reveal the failures of socialism, which are far greater than the failures of whatever system was in place before the Bloivarian revolution.

#66 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 07:50 PM | Reply

Can a country provide everyone with health care through government diktat while not being a Socialist country?

Asking for Canada and Mexico.

#67 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 07:50 PM | Reply

"Venezuela's primary revenue generator is oil.

No, VZ's primary revenue generator is the enterprise which converts oil into some form of currency."

I see.

So is the average Venezuelan unable or unwilling to be the enterprise which converts oil into some form of currency?

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 07:52 PM | Reply

"I think that the average Venezuelan would be more than happy to go back to days when VZ was not a failed state"

Average people don't call the shots in this world.

What would the shot-callers prefer?

#69 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 07:53 PM | Reply

"Please list countries who utilize socialism and aren't fascists disguised as socialists."

Uh, fascism was born out of socialism. I'm not sure how you separate the two.

If you want successful examples of actual socialism working successfully, you'll need to look at either family units or primative tribes. Socialism will work...when the producers are more concerned with the welfare of thier community or family than they are with themselves. I'm not like that...an neither are you.

#70 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 07:53 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

I'm not moving anything.

#63 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-12-06 07:44 PM | REPLY

Yes, you are. Democratic Socialism is not the only form of socialism. There is Fascist Socialism.

#71 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-06 07:54 PM | Reply

Just because it's the flavor of socialism you like doesn't mean other forms do not exist.

#72 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-06 07:55 PM | Reply

Venezuela has the second (?) biggest oil reserves. So. Why is it's economy failing? Couldn't be because capitalist America was pissed off Hugo Chavez wouldn't submit to our demands, right? Doesn't have anything to do with sanctions. Nope. Don't even look over there. Just focus on socialism and equate it with failure.

POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-12-06 07:44 PM | REPLY

They are trying to justify their hatred for socialism anyway that they can even going so far as blatantly lying about the cause of Venezuela's problems. They have absolutely nothing to do with socialism and everything to do with Americans blatant aggression towards that country.

#73 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2018-12-06 07:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Venezuela has the second (?) biggest oil reserves. So. Why is it's economy failing? Couldn't be because capitalist America was pissed off Hugo Chavez wouldn't submit to our demands, right? Doesn't have anything to do with sanctions. Nope. Don't even look over there. Just focus on socialism and equate it with failure."

If VZ had possessed the capacity to generate revenues off it's natural resources without assistance from the US, don't you think they would have? The fact is that Chavez nationalized the oil enterprise in that country in an effort to capture more of the revenues that were going outside the country. What he was left with was an industry he nor anyone else was capable to maintaining. He assumed (like many socialists do) that those responsible for generating currency would fall in line behind his efforts. Just like Lenin thought the Kulaks would give up their land and property in support of the Soviet model. Both were wrong. The only difference is that Chavez couldn't put a gun to the heads of the oil companies and make them continue to crank out oil.

#74 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:00 PM | Reply

fascism was born out of socialism. I'm not sure how you separate the two.

Well. Words have definitions and meanings. You could start there.


Socialism: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Fascism: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.


First take away. The definition of socialism begins with "a theory", because it has never truly existed as a form of government.

If you want successful examples of actual socialism working successfully, you'll need to look at either family units or primative tribes. Socialism will work...when the producers are more concerned with the welfare of thier community or family than they are with themselves.

On this, we agree. Completely.

I'm not like that...an neither are you.
#70 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

You know nothing about me. You do constantly try to tell me who I am. So on that, you're consistent.

#75 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 08:02 PM | Reply

"Socialism will work...when the producers are more concerned with the welfare of thier community or family than they are with themselves. I'm not like that...an neither are you."

So like, when Dr. Jonas Salk gave away his polio vaccine for free, instead of monetizing it, that was socialism working. Globally. For all mankind.

And that Salk Institute up the street in La Jolla, that's what we get when socialism works.

I can see why you're so strongly opposed to making the world a better place. But can you? Maybe try putting it into your own words?

But since Sitzkrieg mentioned there are other flavors of socialism, let's explore.

The scene in Apocalypse Now, where Brando recounts how they immunized a village, and then the VC went and cut off every immunized arm, that was Socialism too? Producers expressing concern for their community?

#76 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 08:04 PM | Reply

"Can a country provide everyone with health care through government diktat while not being a Socialist country?"

I don't think healthcare has anything to do with it.

If the US had followed the brits in the late 1940s and implemented some form of national healthcare, I think it would have gone through. The resistance you see from USans today is we have the benefit of seeing how US healthcare compares to places like the UK or Canada. And those who pay for healthcare don't want to pay more for a lower quality service just so someone who doesn't pay for it can get the same level of care.

#77 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:04 PM | Reply

"And what is being demonstrated in America is that capitalism will die without socialism to keep the plutocrats from sucking up all the wealth in the country."

We'd be better of following the Venezuelan example?

#66 | Posted by madbomber

No, and the fact that you sell this false choice between american capitalism and venezuelan socialism means you've never heard of successful socialist economies like canada, iceland, greenland, australia, new zealand, canada, japan, south korea, germany, france, denmark, sweden, the netherlands, switzerland, finland, england, scotland, ireland...

If you went to college you should demand a refund.

#78 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-06 08:05 PM | Reply

And those who pay for healthcare don't want to pay more for a lower quality service just so someone who doesn't pay for it can get the same level of care.

#77 | Posted by madbomber

Lies. Unless you're really rich, you get better quality service in socialist healthcare systems.

We pay MORE for WORSE results.

#79 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-06 08:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"You know nothing about me. You do constantly try to tell me who I am. So on that, you're consistent."

I don't. So you can tell me. What are you willing to sacrifice in order to bring socialism to the masses? Most people I hear talking about socialism are demanding that others make sacrifices...so that they themselves can benefit. I have yet to see someone in a position of wealth or power state that they are going to give it all up for the benefit of someone else. Will you?

#80 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:07 PM | Reply

"No, and the fact that you sell this false choice between american capitalism and venezuelan socialism means you've never heard of successful socialist economies like canada, iceland, greenland, australia, new zealand, canada, japan, south korea, germany, france, denmark, sweden, the netherlands, switzerland, finland, england, scotland, Ireland"

You forgot to include the US in that list.

I forgive you.

#81 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:08 PM | Reply

Saying socialism doesn't work because of Venezuela is like saying capitalism doesn't work because of Afghanistan. In other words, you're an idiot if you say it.

#82 | Posted by JOE at 2018-12-06 08:08 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Democratic Socialism is not the only form of socialism. There is Fascist Socialism.
#71 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG AT 2018-12-06 07:54 PM | FLAG:

Fascist socialism is simply called fascism. They're both form of government where the government controls everything. The difference being socialism would then use its revenue to help its citizens where as fascism would keep the money for those controlling the government.

Just because it's the flavor of socialism you like doesn't mean other forms do not exist.
#72 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Never said they don't.

Perhaps your point is European nations are fascist. If so. I did miss your point. And am willing to discuss your view on the matter.

#83 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 08:10 PM | Reply

"Lies. Unless you're really rich, you get better quality service in socialist healthcare systems."

Uhhh...no, Scott. You most definitely do not get a better quality service. Unless you purchase supplemental insurance. You get Spirit airlines quality healthcare. It'll keep you alive most of the time...but bring snacks. And your own sheets.

I

#84 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:11 PM | Reply

"Saying socialism doesn't work because of Venezuela is like saying capitalism doesn't work because of Afghanistan."

Afghanistan????

As in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan?

Since profit isn't legal there, it would be quite a stretch to claim it as being capitalist...dontcha think?

#85 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

What are you willing to sacrifice in order to bring socialism to the masses?

What does socialism need to be fruitful? Taxes.

I'd be willing to provide more of my weekly income (which is ample, and I work 10-14 hour days for it), in order to provide better social services for all.

And one day. Should I fall on hard times. I'd be happy to know I don't have to sell my house in order to survive. Should I have to have surgery, I'd be happy to know I won't go into debt.

I'd be happy to know future generations of Americans are growing up healthier and smarter than my generation.

I detest greed and pride. Unfortunately that's all the Republican Party espouses.

#86 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 08:18 PM | Reply

"Perhaps your point is European nations are fascist. If so. I did miss your point. And am willing to discuss your view on the matter."

The European welfare state has the same corporatist lineage as the fascist governments of the mid-20th century. Fascism began as an offshoot of the Italian socialist party during WWI. At the time, the Socialist world was dominated by the Soviets, who felt that socialism was an international movement...and they stood in opposition to WWI. Italians socialists, led by Mussolini, begged the question why socialist principles couldn't be applied at the national level, and thus was born fascism. Obviously, this really pissed off the other socialists, who then began labelling their opponents as "fascists."

Labelling your opponents as fascists...glad we don't see that anymore.

#87 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:19 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

"Lies. Unless you're really rich, you get better quality service in socialist healthcare systems."

Uhhh...no, Scott. You most definitely do not get a better quality service. Unless you purchase supplemental insurance. You get Spirit airlines quality healthcare. It'll keep you alive most of the time...but bring snacks. And your own sheets.

#84 | Posted by madbomber

Nice try to switch from "outcomes" to "service". Would you rather have your life saved by a mean doctor or be greeted with a smile by an incompetent doctor?

If you care about actual RESULTS:

www.healthsystemtracker.org

The U.S. has the highest rate of deaths amenable to health care among comparable countries

Hospital admissions for preventable diseases are more frequent in the U.S. than in comparable countries

Disease burden is higher in the U.S. than in comparable countries

The U.S. has higher rates of medical, medication, and lab errors than comparable countries

Post-op suture ruptures are worse in the U.S. than in comparable countries

The mortality rate for respiratory diseases is higher in the U.S. than in comparably wealthy countries

Use of the emergency department in place of regular doctor visits is more common in the U.S. than in most comparable countries
----
If our system was better, other countries would copy it. But no one is stupid enough to copy the corrupt disaster we have here.

#88 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-06 08:20 PM | Reply

"What does socialism need to be fruitful? Taxes."

Nope. It needs a community that is committed to each other. When that occurs, taxes are nothing more than a (possibly) convenient method to transfer wealth.

"I'd be willing to provide more of my weekly income (which is ample, and I work 10-14 hour days for it), in order to provide better social services for all."

So who's stopping you?

#89 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:22 PM | Reply

"The European welfare state has the same corporatist lineage as the fascist governments of the mid-20th century."

Odd, then, that it was first brought into existence by Otto von Bismarck in the late 19th century.

Amazing how the Nazis couldn't win even with time travel on their side.

Unless...

#90 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 08:23 PM | Reply

Nice try to switch from "outcomes" to "service".

You're the one who mentioned "service," Champ. Allow me to refresh:

"Lies. Unless you're really rich, you get better quality service in socialist healthcare systems."

Your words.

#91 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:25 PM | Reply

Nice try to switch from "outcomes" to "service".

This is the game he plays.

He says because we have more MRIs per capita, and lower wait times, we have a better health care system.

Nevermind that people only ever need an MRI about once a decade or so.

His health economics illiteracy is even worse than his regular economics illiteracy.

He has an MBA in Finance and thinks it's an economics credential.

#92 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 08:26 PM | Reply

"Odd, then, that it was first brought into existence by Otto von Bismarck in the late 19th century."

Bis was a fascist????

#93 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:26 PM | Reply

"He has an MBA in Finance and thinks it's an economics credential."

As opposed to you who has...what again?

#94 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:27 PM | Reply

I'm pretty sure that even if the US was to implement some sort of free chicken version of healthcare, many of you would bitch and moan because you had a wait time, or had to stay in an open bay ward, or weren't award any of the other amenities that we crazy rich gringos view as being standard.

#95 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:30 PM | Reply

"As opposed to you who has...what again?"

An understanding of economics.

#96 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 08:32 PM | Reply

oilprice.com

Besides a steady decline in production, Venezuela's state-run oil company earlier this year ran into problems with its storage capacity and export terminals in the Caribbean as U.S.-based ConocoPhillips took an aggressive approach to enforcing a court ruling that awarded it US$2 billion in compensation for the forced nationalization of two projects in Venezuela. The company this summer seized several of PDVSA's assets on Caribbean islands, which made it difficult for the Venezuelan state company to meet its export obligations. Having few options, PDVSA eventually caved, settling with Conoco.

Dock repairs are further complicating matters. PDVSA is supposed to deliver to Rosneft some 4 million bpd of crude under the latest bilateral agreement signed this April. On top of that, it normally exports crude for U.S. Valero Energy and Chevron from the same dock, the South dock of the Jose port, which is responsible for processing processes as much as 70 percent of the country's crude oil exports.

Not to anyone's surprise, the delay in resuming shipments is largely a result of insufficient funds, partially thanks to U.S. sanctions, which have essentially closed nearly completely the door to foreign funding. China, not bound by these restrictions, recently agreed to a US$5-billion lifeline for the Venezuelan government and its oil industry, but these billions will take time to become available. Given the multitude of problems that PDVSA is having, it would be a tough job to allocate these funds so that there is enough for everything.

#97 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2018-12-06 08:33 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"I'm pretty sure that even if the US was to implement some sort of free chicken version of healthcare, many of you would bitch and moan because you had a wait time, or had to stay in an open bay ward, or weren't award any of the other amenities that we crazy rich gringos view as being standard."

People do all that right now in America.

This isn't something you are willing to understand, but the success of a health care system is not gauged by complaints, or number of MRIs. It's gauged by quality of health outcomes in the aggregate population.

#98 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 08:36 PM | Reply

"An understanding of economics."

You. Are. Adorable.

Trying so hard to be grown up.

#99 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:41 PM | Reply

who's stopping you?
#89 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

The people who create tax laws. The rich who would prefer to have money in offshore bank accounts rather than giving back to the communities in which they live and make their wealth possible.

But. Don't you worry too much. I do give a lot to charities and to homeless on the street. I tip a lot. And I do my best to take care of my friends whenever they need.

#100 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 08:42 PM | Reply

Mad.

I'd like you to acknowledge admitting there has never been a socialist nation. Other than in name only.

You pretty much have, without directly saying as much.

#101 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 08:43 PM | Reply

"This isn't something you are willing to understand, but the success of a health care system is not gauged by complaints, or number of MRIs. It's gauged by quality of health outcomes in the aggregate population."

No champ, it's not. you can gauge it that way of you want, have a nut, but I'm going to gauge it based it what does for me.

It's not a better outcome for me when I have to wait months for a paid procedure and you get the same for free.

You're still super adorable though.

#102 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:44 PM | Reply

"Trying so hard to be grown up."

Thanks.
You're clearly not cut out for it.

"From each, according to his abilities..."

#103 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 08:45 PM | Reply

#53 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Exactly. Just because Marx idealized socialism and used it as an excuse for authoritarianism does not mean marxism is socialism.

That'd be like trying to justify your series of murders because you believed it would lead to a greater good. It doesn't make the murders good.

#104 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-06 08:47 PM | Reply

"but I'm going to gauge it based it what does for me."

Of course you are; it's a testament to your self-centered way of life.

Did your MBA equip you to know what the error bar is on a sample size of one?

Also, have you been diagnosed with Asperger's yet? You are relentlessly unable to experience empathy, and this inability is foundational to your understanding of human society.

#105 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 08:48 PM | Reply

Snoof...I feel like we haven't talked in a while, but I feel like I should share this.

I live in in Gulf State Country now. It would be perfect for you.

If you're a resident, you don't really have to work. Lots of free money. You can get a teaboy cheap to clean your car, pay your speeding tickets, whatever. You go on vacay for the summer months to somewhere a little cooler...the alps maybe...and healthcare??? totally free.

It kinda sounds like the perfect place for someone like you.

#106 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:49 PM | Reply

Should I fall on hard times. I'd be happy to know I don't have to sell my house in order to survive. Should I have to have surgery, I'd be happy to know I won't go into debt.
I'd be happy to know future generations of Americans are growing up healthier and smarter than my generation.
#86 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

But I, the humble conservative, feel that your increased happiness directly reduces my happiness, so I cannot support your communist ideas.

#107 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-06 08:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

But I, the humble conservative, feel that your increased happiness directly reduces my happiness, so I cannot support your communist ideas.

I'd have given you a funny flag if your satire wasn't such an accurate representation of reality.

#108 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 08:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I'd like you to acknowledge admitting there has never been a socialist nation."

It depends on how you define nation.

There are plenty of successful socialist societies, but none of them are modern in a sense that you and I would agree on.

It's really only the more primative societies where emapthy or concern extended very far beyond the family unit. And in all fairness, it's these societies that would kill or abandon disabled babies. Ensuring that those who remained as stakeholders did so as equal partners...not as consumers who provided no contribution in return.

#109 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:54 PM | Reply

"Did your MBA equip you to know what the error bar is on a sample size of one?"

If it were just me, I'd be in the Gulag right now and you'd be getting a handy from your state-provided teaboy.

#110 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 08:57 PM | Reply

He says because we have more MRIs per capita... we have a better health care system.
#92 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

More MRIs isn't good. More MRIs is profitable.

When it comes to pricey hospital procedures, MRIs come to mind. Sure enough, according to recently released Medicare pricing data analyzed by NerdWallet Health, the average cost of an MRI in the U.S. is $2,611. Here's what's behind that number.Jul 16, 2014
I suppose because people see more specialists here that is a good thing too. Or does it make more money for superfluous entities?

#111 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-06 08:57 PM | Reply

"More MRIs isn't good. More MRIs is profitable."

It's good for the patient if it means not waiting three weeks for the procedure.

In the UK, access to a specialist is held by a general practitioner, who is most likely going to deny access. Unless you have a supplemental plan...in which case you'll likely see the specialist the next day. Or very soon. That's how specialists in the UK make a lot of their income.

#112 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 09:01 PM | Reply

"It's not a better outcome for me when I have to wait months for a paid procedure and you get the same for free."

Probably true. Especially if you the American can't afford the procedure so you never get it, whereas someone in Canada doesn't have that barrier to care.

Socialized medicinde invented a way to solve that problem, for everyone.

But you would rather suffer with your problems rather than implement a solution which benefits yourself and everyone, because that necessarily benefit peoole who you deem unworthy of helping.

#113 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 09:02 PM | Reply

"If it were just me, I'd be in the Gulag right now and you'd be getting a handy from your state-provided teaboy."

Isn't that what you're giving me right now?

#114 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 09:04 PM | Reply

In the UK, access to a specialist is held by a general practitioner, who is most likely going to deny access.

#112 | Posted by madbomber

And in the USA, access to a specialist is held by a FOR PROFIT INSURANCE COMPANY, who MAKE MORE PROFIT IF THEY deny access.

#115 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-06 09:06 PM | Reply

"It's really only the more primative societies where emapthy or concern extended very far beyond the family unit."

And yet I hear from people like you that conservatives give oh so much more to charity than liberals.

That's not born of empathy?

What then?

And how about countries with universal health care, if they're not doing it out empathy, then why?

Wait... could it possibly be... Using your advanced degree, do you see a business case that supports universal health care???

#116 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 09:13 PM | Reply

#112 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

And in the US your doctor recommends a specialist so his buddy can get a cut of the insurance payout.

#117 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-06 09:15 PM | Reply

Meanwhile in Canada:

"Patients also experience significant waiting times for various diagnostic technologies across the provinces. This year, Canadians could expect to wait 3.7 weeks for a computed tomography (CT) scan, 11.1 weeks for a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan, and 4.0 weeks for an ultrasound.Nov 23, 2016
Waiting Your Turn": Wait Times for Health Care in Canada, 2016 Report
www.fraserinstitute.org

Here in the USA, when I was experience major head pains I had an MRI within two hours of my practitioner's call and FAX to the hospital to set it up. When the government runs healthcare there are budgets [and limits], including equipment budgets.

#118 | Posted by MSgt at 2018-12-06 09:17 PM | Reply

"Socialized medicinde invented a way to solve that problem, for everyone."

How is my problem solved when I have to wait as long for a procedure I'm paying for as long as someone who's not paying?

I currently have a solution that provides the outcome I want...why would I want that to go away?

"And in the USA, access to a specialist is held by a FOR PROFIT INSURANCE COMPANY, who MAKE MORE PROFIT IF THEY deny access."

No...they get more money by allowing access. Not just in the US, but everywhere. If you're a doc, what pateint do you want to see? The one with the private healthcare insurance, or the one on Medicare?

#119 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-06 09:19 PM | Reply

How is my problem solved when I have to wait as long for a procedure I'm paying for as long as someone who's not paying?
#119 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

As an insured American, I already have to pay for people that aren't paying.

#120 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-06 09:24 PM | Reply

"How is my problem solved when I have to wait as long for a procedure I'm paying for as long as someone who's not paying?"

Did you get the procedure or not?

#121 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 09:24 PM | Reply

Here in the USA, when I was experience major head pains I had an MRI within two hours of my practitioner's call and FAX to the hospital to set it up. When the government runs healthcare there are budgets [and limits], including equipment budgets.

#118 | Posted by MSgt

Propaganda. If you are experiencing an emergency in canada you don't have to wait. The wait times are for non urgent conditions.

The whole "America's more expensive system with worse outcomes is worth it because sometimes you don't have to wait as long" is the weakest argument in the debate, based on half truths and misinformation.

#122 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-06 09:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#118.

You're comparing an emergent event with things like people looking to get a joint replaced.

Joint replacements don't need to happen in two hours after you decide you want one.

And if you need an MRI in an emergency in Canada, you don't wait for months.

#123 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 09:28 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#97

I love it when Laura posts things that she really doesn't understand.

Let me make it simple for you:

Chavez seized ConocoPhillips property and didn't pay a penny for it. If someone seized something that you spent money on (your house, for example) and didn't pay for it, what would you do? You would sue. That is what ConocoPhilips did and they won. Since PDVSA had no cash because Chavez used it all to pay off his base, they couldn't pay the judgment. If that was you, what would you do? You would find other things they owned and take them to pay you back. That is what ConocoPhillips did. Once Chavez realized he had no other options, he settled.

As for the Dock repairs (and all other maintenance that had been deferred for over a decade), PDVSA had stopped making repairs because they had no cash (see above) and had to try to borrow the money for repairs that they should have done years before but had used the cash to appease Chavez' base. The Obama Admin, because of escalating Human Rights abuses, sanctioned individuals and the PDVSA by restricting their access to loans...loans that wouldn't have been necessary had Chavez and his cronies not looted PDVSA's reserves.

All of these problems are of Chavez's making.

#124 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-12-06 09:30 PM | Reply

In yet another example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, Madbomber and MSgt know the least about health care economics and how quality is measured, but they think they know the most.

#125 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 09:31 PM | Reply

-As an insured American, I already have to pay for people that aren't paying.

Yes. He was referring to the wait, not the payment.

#126 | Posted by eberly at 2018-12-06 09:32 PM | Reply

The 'healthcare' outcome thing is such a ridiculous canard.

It doesn't take into account things like suicide, accidental deaths, homicide or obesity - all things that have little-to-nothing to do with the quality of a given healthcare system.

It also ignores the fact that a vast majority of the healthcare innovations come from this for-profit country. The rest of the modern world would crap themselves if the US went to single-payer.

Another thing that is never acknowledged is how private insurance subsidizes Medicare and Medicaid. In the University of Michigan healthcare system, Medicare and Medicaid patients are serviced at a loss thus they need to charge their private insurance providers even more, which is a hidden tax.

This overall quality of healthcare in this country is better than any nationalized system on the planet. Having said that, we pay a LOT more and I would fully agree that a single payer type system provides an overall better value. Having said that, quit deluding yourselves that single-payer is some kind of Utopia. It isn't.

#127 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-12-06 09:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

n yet another example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, Madbomber and MSgt know the least about health care economics and how quality is measured, but they think they know the most.

#125 | POSTED BY SNOOFY A

You just described yourself. Psychologists call that 'projection'.

#128 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-12-06 09:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Kitty's got claws!

I know far more about health care than Madbomber as anyone who knows anything about health care can attest.

You're married to such a person. Why don't you get her expert opinion, since you don't have one of your own.

#129 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 09:48 PM | Reply

"The 'healthcare' outcome thing is such a ridiculous canard."

That's what you said about economic mulitpliers last night.

Drunk two nights in a row, JeffJ?

#130 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 09:50 PM | Reply

"It also ignores the fact that a vast majority of the healthcare innovations come from this for-profit country."

Why should a quality measure take that into account?

Not like you can answer.

Here's another one you can't answer:

How should a quality measure take that into account?

#131 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 09:54 PM | Reply

"This overall quality of healthcare in this country is better than any nationalized system on the planet."

Nobody in health care agrees with you.

I mean, literally nobody.

So, since you're clearly not measuring health care quality the way health care folks do...

By what measure(s) is the overall quality better here?

#132 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 09:57 PM | Reply

Afghanistan????
As in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan?

Do you think something that is "Islamic" or a "Rpunlic" cannot be capitalist?

Since profit isn't legal there, it would be quite a stretch to claim it as being capitalist...dontcha think?

Oh so you're just making up lies? Got it.

Choose another failed capitalist state for my example if Afghanistan doesn't suit you. There are plenty to choose from.

#133 | Posted by JOE at 2018-12-06 10:06 PM | Reply

By what measure(s) is the overall quality better here?

Well. It's more expensive. A lot of people equate more expensive to mean better quality.

Like when Payless shoes tricked rich kids into buying $20 shoes for $600.

The value of something is determined by how much the consumer is willing to pay for it. It doesn't necessarily mean the product is better. Just that people are willing to pay more.

#134 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-06 10:15 PM | Reply

Do you think something that is "Islamic" or a "Rpunlic" cannot be capitalist? - joe

They don't allow interest on loans (Riba) ... hard to raise capital in that environment.

#135 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2018-12-06 10:36 PM | Reply

Why should a quality measure take that into account? - Snoofy

Because its what drives outcomes, its what drives medical and technological advancement ...

Innovation in the US is passed to other countries to use in their socialized healthcare system, they didn't innovate these things they use our technology to raise their outcomes, is that accounted for in their measure? No, if technology and knowledge stopped their outcomes would stop as well.

If you are a doctor in Canada whats the point of inventing some new innovation? You won't get any benefit, because there is no risk, the government just takes the idea and uses it, you get nothing, THAT IS SOCIALISM.

Its not difficult to understand.

#136 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2018-12-06 10:42 PM | Reply

You just described yourself. Psychologists call that 'projection'.

#128 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

"Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty"

So many people have told jeff he's projecting that he's now firing back.

#137 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-06 10:54 PM | Reply

"Why should a quality measure take that into account? - Snoofy"

Because its what drives outcomes, its what drives medical and technological advancement ...

Innovations only drive outcomes when they are applied.

Quality doesn't care who created the innovation.

Only who applied it.

I notice you punted on the much harder question, How exactly should quality measures be adjusted for the country of origin of a medical innovation.

The fact is, Hungary or Austria is going to be the world leader if you do it that way, since Semmelweiz (a Hungarian working in Austria) was the guy who convinced doctors they need to wash their hands before surgery, about 170 years ago.

#138 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-06 11:07 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#122 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2018-12-06 09:25 PM | FLAG: Fine if you have an emergency, but many like mine would not be deemed an emergency there.

#139 | Posted by MSgt at 2018-12-06 11:21 PM | Reply

Chavez has been dead for five of those years. Chavez nationalized foreign Corporations including many US companies, just like Castro did. Also, like Castro, Chavez immediately became a target of US assassination squads. Its what our war nation does. Keep everybody else in line. Force everyone smaller than us to do everything on our terms or else. The else can be assassination, sanctions, bankruptcy or invasion whatever it takes. We have been at war with Venezuela since about 2000 and as a consequence they are hurting. The Courts of the US and our allies follow laws we wrote but they do not apply to us. We are the planet bully. The problems in South America are almost always caused by massive corruption and US interference. Their is nothing inherently flawed with socialism. Einstein wrote an important essay to make this very point. But every country has a unique mix of socialist and capitalist programs working side by side. Greedy Republican idiots would like you to believe otherwise.

#140 | Posted by bayviking at 2018-12-07 12:11 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

If you are a doctor in Canada whats the point of inventing some new innovation?

Because unlike modern day Trumpublicans.

Some people invent new innovations for the feeling of accomplishment and the satisfaction they get knowing they're helping out fellow human.

You won't get any benefit,

So.

If it does result in personal benefit it's not worth doing.

What a fkkked up perspective.

You're literally what's wrong with society.

#141 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-07 12:16 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#136 You know nothing about the Canadian healthcare system.
The majority of doctors are incorporated businesses. Capitalists. They are allowed to invent treatments and profit from them.

What turf nozzle did you get that idea from?

#142 | Posted by bored at 2018-12-07 12:45 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Here is a list of Canadian health innovations.
innovativemedicines.ca

They still have the second worst healthcare system value in the first world.

#143 | Posted by bored at 2018-12-07 12:52 AM | Reply

Some people invent new innovations for the feeling of accomplishment and the satisfaction they get knowing they're helping out fellow human. ~ Clownshack

You've never invented anything in your life, you have no idea what it takes. You have never sacrificed what it takes to advance technology. If you did you would know this is a fantasy land statement. That satisfaction lasts a day maybe two. I see people using my inventions 30-40 times a day. I am glad I received reward for all the hard effort when I was younger, I deserve it.

If people did things just for the "satisfaction" there would be no "income inequality".

So.

So.
If it does result in personal benefit it's not worth doing.
What a fkkked up perspective.

Really? Even your argument specifies personal benefit ...

People like animals, evaluate RoI and RoE, for Risk and reward .... Evolution requires and enforces it.... You want to advance technology in medicine? Those people need to be rewarded.

#144 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2018-12-07 12:52 AM | Reply

#143 | POSTED BY BORED

That it? Really That is your argument?

#145 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2018-12-07 12:53 AM | Reply

--You've never invented anything in your life, you have no idea what it takes.

Except for writing bad poetry at Starbucks while sipping a pumpkin-spice latte and listening to NPR.

#146 | Posted by nullifidian at 2018-12-07 12:57 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#141 What makes you think Canadian docs aren't in medicine for the money?
They are highly paid or they would move to the USA.

I work in health care research. Medicine and health are not synonymous.
Public health like prenatal care, vaccinations, clean water, food inspectors, save more lives for a tiny fraction of the cost of medical specialists. Off patent drugs save more lives than patented drugs.

#147 | Posted by bored at 2018-12-07 01:00 AM | Reply

#144 You seem to be under the delusion that single payer implies socialism where there is no reward for innovation.

You are wrong. Canada's doctors are mostly business owners that charge fees like USA docs.

Educate yourself before spouting off.

#148 | Posted by bored at 2018-12-07 01:07 AM | Reply

Venezuela is a perfect example of just how completely the US can destroy the economy of a nation within America's sphere of influence if really set out to so. We did the same thing to Cuba. But they at least had Russia propping them up. Venezuela's disaster is not so much any failure of socialism, but rather a success of America's unleashed and unfettered economic aggression against a smaller nation that defied us and insulted us.

#3 | POSTED BY MODER8

Counsellor, have you been drinking? I´ve lived and worked with Venezuelans in Miami and Madrid and the entire blame for the destruction of the country lies with Chavez. Fact!! Restructuring the economy almost entirely on oil products was the US doing? Nationalization entire industries, yeah, the US did that!!! And please explain how the US enacted Venezuelan monetary policy to devalue the bolivar.

#149 | Posted by CrisisStills at 2018-12-07 06:59 AM | Reply

"Do you think something that is "Islamic" or a "Rpunlic" cannot be capitalist?"

No, champ.

Profit is not permitted under Islamic law. Look it up.

#150 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-07 06:59 AM | Reply

Here is an interesting article on private insurance in the UK, detailing how specialists differentiate between patients covered by the NHS and those covered by private healthcare.

thehealthcareblog.com

#151 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-07 07:00 AM | Reply

"The value of something is determined by how much the consumer is willing to pay for it. It doesn't necessarily mean the product is better. Just that people are willing to pay more."

You're right. Apply that to healthcare: some people would be happy to go from Hong Kong to Seattle on a container ship, even though living conditions were spartan and the journey takes a long time. That doesn't make it better than a more expensive flight on Singapore air that will make the same trip in around 12 hours. It doesn't make it worse either...but I think it's safe to say that most travelers who can afford it won't want to give up their short trip in an airplane so that many others can make the slower trip with them on a boat.

#152 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-07 07:04 AM | Reply

Profit is not permitted under Islamic law. Look it up.

#150 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER AT 2018-12-07 06:59 AM | FLAG:

Yes, it is. Mudarabah. It literally means sharing the profit and loss with capital venture.

You are confusing profit with profit from interest bearing loans.

#153 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-07 07:54 AM | Reply

Exactly. Just because Marx idealized socialism and used it as an excuse for authoritarianism does not mean marxism is socialism.

#104 | POSTED BY INDIANAJONES AT 2018-12-06 08:47 PM | FLAG:

That's .. a strange way to look at it to say the least. Socialism is an idea from Marxism. It's the transition state to communism from capitalism. It's a big part of Marxist theory. You can be for welfare without being a socialist, that's just somebody who wants high taxes and a different public spending structure than what we have now.

#154 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-07 08:00 AM | Reply

Profit is not permitted under Islamic law. Look it up.

You're the one making the false claim. Support it with a link (you can't).

#155 | Posted by JOE at 2018-12-07 08:43 AM | Reply

If this doesn't convince latte leftists that Venezuelan socialism is a disaster, nothing will.

The Price of a Cup of Coffee in Venezuela Is Up 285,614% in a Year

www.msn.com

#156 | Posted by nullifidian at 2018-12-07 09:07 AM | Reply

We have our own strongman now. Our own Chavez and Putin all wrapped up in one. He tells the justice dept who to jail. He walks into companies and tells them how to run. He tells the people what the truth is.

#6 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

Had, not have. Obama's 8 years ended.

#157 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2018-12-07 09:28 AM | Reply

monthlyreview.org

Nowhere have we really overcome what Thorstein Veblen called "the predatory phase" of human development ... the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future ... socialism is directed towards a social-ethical end.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.

A planned economy as such may be accompanied by the complete enslavement of the individual. The achievement of socialism requires the solution of some extremely difficult socio-political problems: how is it possible, in view of the far-reaching centralization of political and economic power, to prevent bureaucracy from becoming all-powerful and overweening? How can the rights of the individual be protected and therewith a democratic counterweight to the power of bureaucracy be assured?

Clarity about the aims and problems of socialism is of greatest significance in our age of transition.
Since, under present circumstances, free and unhindered discussion of these problems has come under a powerful taboo, I consider the foundation of this magazine to be an important public service.

#158 | Posted by bayviking at 2018-12-07 09:47 AM | Reply

the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future ... socialism is directed towards a social-ethical end.

You have highlighted the fatal flaw of socialism, and to a larger extent, communism. It relies on an belief that humans can be non-competitive and altruistic while at the same time placing enormous centralized power in a small group of people who are greedy megalomaniacs.

Humans can choose to be wolves or be sheep. Wolves recognize that they can be cooperative predators, rewarding the strongest. Sheep are mostly equal, sacrificing the weakest to simply maintain their status as breathing food.

#159 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2018-12-07 10:08 AM | Reply

If you want successful examples of actual socialism working successfully, you'll need to look at either family units or primative tribes. Socialism will work...when the producers are more concerned with the welfare of thier community or family than they are with themselves.

On this, we agree. Completely.

Clownshack,

Would you agree then, that the policy of local control (i.e. States rights), would be better for the U.S. instead of an overarching central government? Having some form of socialism at the local level and keeping the resources local, as decided by the localities as opposed to trying to force different parts of our large nation to fund something on another coast that's not in their interest or world view?

I might could see that.

#160 | Posted by boaz at 2018-12-07 10:57 AM | Reply

the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future ... socialism is directed towards a social-ethical end.

Perhaps, but it goes against every evolutionary tendency.

How do you divide up resources? In particular females, and males? Men will compete for the best females, and females will compete for the best males.

Socialisms only hope is a race/species without sex ... See ANT, BEES ...

If you want successful examples of actual socialism working successfully, you'll need to look at either family units or primative tribes. Socialism will work...when the producers are more concerned with the welfare of thier community or family than they are with themselves.

It would appear you know nothing about family units or primitive tribes.

#161 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2018-12-07 11:09 AM | Reply

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we're not here to indulge in fantasy, but in political and economic reality.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Greed is right.

Greed works.

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

Greed is what makes progress, innovation and even the DR.

#162 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2018-12-07 11:13 AM | Reply

Would you agree then, that the policy of local control (i.e. States rights), would be better for the U.S. instead of an overarching central government? Having some form of socialism at the local level and keeping the resources local, as decided by the localities as opposed to trying to force different parts of our large nation to fund something on another coast that's not in their interest or world view?

I might could see that.

#160 | Posted by boaz

Does a state's pollution stay withing a state?

Nope.

You find a way to keep all the red state's stupid decisions from affecting a single person or animal outside their state and we'll be happy to let you destroy yourselves.

#163 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-07 11:51 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Greed is what makes progress, innovation and even the DR.

#162 | Posted by AndreaMackris

Another chump arguing for the plutocrats who abuse and oppress him as if they're going to let him into the country club.

#164 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-07 11:51 AM | Reply

Funny that you'd quote a guy who ends up going down in flames to support your argument for capitalism. Guess this story doesn't end well either?

#165 | Posted by JOE at 2018-12-07 11:55 AM | Reply

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we're not here to indulge in fantasy, but in political and economic reality.
The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.
Greed is right.
Greed works.
Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.
And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.
Greed is what makes progress, innovation and even the DR.

#162 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

Not good with picking up on satire huh?

Greed has been the cause of some of the world's worst problems. Wanting to make more is not greed. Wanting to do better is not greed. Wanting to get rich is not greed.

Becoming a sociopath to get rich is Greed. Trump is your perfect example. His money has come from his parents, breaking tax laws, and ruining investors and contractors.

#166 | Posted by Sycophant at 2018-12-07 12:03 PM | Reply

Socialism is an idea from Marxism. It's the transition state to communism from capitalism. It's a big part of Marxist theory.
#154 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

No... You can absolutely have socialism without marxism. Marxism is using authoritarianism to transition from capitalism to communism. There's no socialism in there at any point. Its amazing how conservatives take so many fascists at their word. "Kim says he'll denuclearize." "North Korea says its a democratic republic." "Venezuela says its socialist." "Putin says he didn't do it." "MBS says he didn't do it."

Why can't you guys look at the actual systems of government and analyze the facts instead of just accepting what they claim as truth?

#167 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-07 12:17 PM | Reply

Profit is not permitted under Islamic law. Look it up.
#150 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

I guess that makes the House of Saud the largest philanthropic organization in the world.

Osama bin Laden was pretty charitable with his billions too. Look at all the new firefighter and police jobs he created for us Americans.

Thanks, Islam!

#168 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-07 12:20 PM | Reply

"Humans can choose to be wolves or be sheep. Wolves recognize that they can be cooperative predators, rewarding the strongest. Sheep are mostly equal, sacrificing the weakest to simply maintain their status as breathing food.
#159 | POSTED BY MUSTANG"

So that whole "Yhe Lord is my shepherd" thing is really to keep people from living up to their true potential and threatening the wolf pack.

That seems... a wee bit cynical. I think there's a little more to it than that.

#169 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-12-07 12:27 PM | Reply

Clownshack,
Would you agree then, that the policy of local control (i.e. States rights), would be better for the U.S. instead of an overarching central government?

Boaz.

Whether you meant to or not. You're suggesting breaking up the United States of America and making each and every state an autonomous country onto its own.

I'm pretty sure you haven't taken the time to actually think about what that would do to this country and to 40+ states which would immediately go bankrupt and turn into third world shhtholes.

Or the fact there was a war waged to keep the union of states from splitting up.

Also. Read some history. The original states were autonomous countries as far as laws, travel rights, currency... It was a disaster.

#170 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-07 12:47 PM | Reply

No... You can absolutely have socialism without marxism.

#167 | POSTED BY INDIANAJONES AT 2018-12-07 12:17 PM | REPLY | FLAG

Yes, there are many types of Socialism. This has been said repeatedly.

This conversation is about Venezuela, which is Fascist Socialism.

#171 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-07 12:52 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I am glad I received reward for all the hard effort when I was younger, I deserve it.
#144 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

Living off a trust fund your parents left you is a reward for hard work?

I mean, if being born is the hardest you've worked your whole life then kudos!

#172 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-07 01:01 PM | Reply

#171 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Now that's funny.

#173 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-07 01:10 PM | Reply

It also ignores the fact that a vast majority of the healthcare innovations come from this for-profit country.
#127 | Posted by JeffJ

PROPAGANDA.

medicalxpress.com
"The idea of a cancer vaccine is something researchers have been working on for over 50 years, but until recently they were never able to prove exactly how such a vaccine would work.
Now, a team of researchers at the Institute for Research in Immunology and Cancer (IRIC) at Université de Montréal has demonstrated that a vaccine can work. Not only that, it could become an extremely effective, non-invasive and cost-effective cancer-fighting tool."

Jeff repeats polluter propaganda without questioning it. Is there any surprise he does the same thing for the insurance companies.

Are there any corporate sociopaths jeff WONT do free propaganda distribution for?

#174 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-07 01:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Sad what has happened in Venezuela. The only thing that will save them now is a full takeover by America. We need to install leadership of our choosing that will follow our instructions.

#175 | Posted by byrdman at 2018-12-07 01:34 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Sad what has happened in Venezuela. The only thing that will save them now is a full takeover by America. We need to install leadership of our choosing that will follow our instructions.

#175 | Posted by byrdman

Which is exactly why our corporate owned government has done everything possible to make venezuela collapse.

#176 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-07 01:45 PM | Reply

I'm pretty sure you haven't taken the time to actually think about...

He obviously does not have near enough RAM and I'm pretty sure he doesn't have the processor power to actually think about comsequences.

#177 | Posted by donnerboy at 2018-12-07 01:46 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

Jeff repeats polluter propaganda without questioning it.

False information is like a virus. Andreà, a Mattress is the host.

On this thread she was the first to make the claim it's thanks to capitalism we have medical advancement.

Jeff parrots her.

On another thread Andreà claimed Beto had zero government experience. Despite the fact he's had some years experience in the government.

Moder8 parroted her.

Now. Take this simple misinformation example and apply it to what Donald Trump does daily. Or Fox News. Or any other right wing hate site.

It's no wonder America is screwed. Liars say anything they want and the gullible repeat it.

#178 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-07 02:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Whether you meant to or not. You're suggesting breaking up the United States of America and making each and every state an autonomous country onto its own.

Well, that's exactly how our Republic was designed to be. We are only intended to cooperate in terms of defending the republic from outside threats at the national level.

But there's not enough money at the state level for Democrat/liberal pixi dust ideas...

#179 | Posted by boaz at 2018-12-07 02:26 PM | Reply

We are only intended to cooperate in terms of defending the republic from outside threats at the national level.

#179 | Posted by boaz

Let's hear the boaz solution for one state sending toxic pollutants downstream into another state.

#180 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-07 02:30 PM | Reply

"Well, that's exactly how our Republic was designed to be." - #179 | Posted by boaz at 2018-12-07 02:26 PM

It was also designed so that slave states could keep their slaves.

Times change.

Live in the now, Clayton.

#181 | Posted by Hans at 2018-12-07 02:32 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I'm still in touch with Goat and trust me, he doesn't miss this place in the slightest..." - #49 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-12-06 06:40 PM

"And the grapes were probably sour, anyway." - Posted by goatman

#182 | Posted by Hans at 2018-12-07 02:36 PM | Reply

"You want to advance technology in medicine? Those people need to be rewarded." - #144 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2018-12-07 12:52 AM

"Can you patent the sun?" - Dr. Jonas Salk
Oops.

#183 | Posted by Hans at 2018-12-07 02:45 PM | Reply

- Well, that's exactly how our Republic was designed to be

Boaz dog-whistling Dixie.

#184 | Posted by Corky at 2018-12-07 03:10 PM | Reply

Oh shut up with the racism idiots, no one will ever have slaves again. The state sovereignty solution can still work in today's time.

#185 | Posted by boaz at 2018-12-07 03:27 PM | Reply

But there's not enough money at the state level for Democrat/liberal pixi dust ideas...
#179 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Are you a caricature RCade has created in order to generate posts?

You can't continuously be this stupid.

Democratic states, for the most part, generate all the revenue for our nation.

Republican states are the biggest recipients of government handouts because Republican voters don't know their a**es from a hole in the ground.

#186 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-07 03:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

no one will ever have slaves again.
#185 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Let me guess. Sniper has too many plonks and no one is responding to him any more.

So you're taking up the mantel as town idiot?

#187 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-07 03:33 PM | Reply

Well, that's exactly how our Republic was designed to be. We are only intended to cooperate in terms of defending the republic from outside threats at the national level.

But there's not enough money at the state level for Democrat/liberal pixi dust ideas...

#179 | Posted by boaz

You really, genuinely have no idea how our system of government works, do you?

#188 | Posted by jpw at 2018-12-07 03:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- no one will ever have slaves again

It would seem enough that we have Trump voters saying that they voted for him because they were afraid of losing their majority status to minorities.... and that, really, they didn't have a problem with a strong social safety net as long as it didn't also benefit minorities.

#189 | Posted by Corky at 2018-12-07 03:43 PM | Reply

#185 | Posted by boaz

Quit dodging boaz. If the feds aren't suppose do anything except protect states from attack, what happens when one state flushes pollution into another state?

#190 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-12-07 03:46 PM | Reply

Quit dodging boaz. If the feds aren't suppose do anything except protect states from attack, what happens when one state flushes pollution into another state?
#190 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Or one state who legalized the recreational sale of cannabis blatantly allows the trafficking of cannabis across state lines into states that has outlawed cannabis possession?

That one seems to be more attractive to ponder for the likes of BOAZ.

#191 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-12-07 03:48 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

California, Texas, New York and a few other states would see all time high revenues. While the rest of the country would become third world nations.

#192 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-12-07 03:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"You're the one making the false claim. Support it with a link (you can't)."

You're right. It's interest that is not permitted under Islamic law. Not profit.

#193 | Posted by madbomber at 2018-12-07 05:43 PM | Reply

Or one state who legalized the recreational sale of cannabis blatantly allows the trafficking of cannabis across state lines into states that has outlawed cannabis possession?

#191 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11 AT 2018-12-07 03:48 PM | FLAG:

That was Colorado. It put the Mexican cartels out of the weed business.

#194 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-12-07 06:31 PM | Reply

The right wings asserioiotn that Darwin's survival of the fittest is the only natural model for human existence is absurd. Symbiosis is evident all over the planet. One of the most beautiful relationships is between clown fish and sea anemones. But it exists on the single cell level where bacteria take turns reducing sulfur compounds as a food source, to the human being that relies on language to cooperate and acheive more than could ever be accomplished by one self. Right wingers are selfish narrow minded idiots that are unable to comprehend how none of us are self made men. We depend on eachother.

#195 | Posted by bayviking at 2018-12-07 07:54 PM | Reply

One of the most beautiful relationships is between clown fish and sea anemones.

Every intra-species relationship has hierarchy; While you outline the clownfish, not every clownfish occupies a sea anemones.

Only the stronger more aggressive clowns occupy the larger ones.
www.reef2reef.com

Right wingers are selfish narrow minded idiots that are unable to comprehend how none of us are self made men.

Perhaps, but I understand your argument, but you don't understand mine, you aren't even attempting too. Survival of the fittest isn't about being self made.

We depend on eachother.

So? Doesn't mean there isn't hierarchy.

#196 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2018-12-07 08:15 PM | Reply

The right wings asserioiotn that Darwin's survival of the fittest is the only natural model for human existence is absurd.

Why? Because it doesnt fit with your ideology? Nature always win. Always.

#197 | Posted by boaz at 2018-12-07 08:44 PM | Reply

Republican voters don't know their a**es from a hole in the ground.
#186 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-12-07 03:31 PM

What are Places republicans put their heads?, Alex.

#198 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-12-07 08:53 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Because both exist naturally. I have never denied that. Only your idiotic thinking that socialism is all bad and capitalism is all good is not just wrong, but monstrously sadistic. Every society is a unique mix of both socialism and capitalism. Pretending socialism doesn't work is to pretend that your water supply, electricity and superhighway do not work. Our prosperity depends on those things.

#199 | Posted by bayviking at 2018-12-07 08:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Nature always win. Always.

#197 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2018-12-07 08:44 PM | REPLY Bumper Sticker Spoken Here

#200 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-12-07 11:15 PM | Reply

Having some form of socialism at the local level and keeping the resources local, as decided by the localities as opposed to trying to force different parts of our large nation to fund something on another coast that's not in their interest or world view?
I might could see that.

#160 | POSTED BY BOAZ

The JPS healthcare system in Tarrant County, TX (includes Fort Worth, Arlington, and other cities) falls into this category. Many people think of the ER when they think of JPS, but JPS has a ton of clinics all over the county. If you are homeless, everything is free. If you make up to 200% of the poverty level, you only pay $5 for a doc visit (you get your own private doctor btw) and $5 for 30 day prescription or $10 for 90 day prescription. There are no deductibles and no monthly premiums. It is supported by local taxes and corporate donations. If you don't have the money to pay for a doctor appt they see you anyway.

It is government healthcare under local control.

Many of the doctors are there because they want to be there... they could make more money elsewhere.

They also have several specialty clinics, a good urgent care center, and enough doctors at the many clinics that same day appointments are often possible when needed.

I've actually wondered about if every county could set up something like this with perhaps state or federal money to help kickstart poorer counties to get off the ground. Government healthcare at the local level that seems to work for the most part.

#201 | Posted by Idependant97 at 2018-12-08 12:43 AM | Reply

We all know the history of local control. Separate toilets, drinking fountains and everything else that goes with that. Don't pretend either, like those thugs in SCOTUS, that that's all behind us. Voter suppression is alive and well under Republican control. SCOTUS is packed with partisan hacks.

www.clarionledger.com

#202 | Posted by bayviking at 2018-12-08 10:27 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Yes, it is behind us. But people like you wont let it. Local control is better.

#203 | Posted by boaz at 2018-12-08 04:54 PM | Reply

"Local control is better." - #203 | Posted by boaz at 2018-12-08 04:54 PM

You don't believe that, Clayton.

#204 | Posted by Hans at 2018-12-08 04:59 PM | Reply

Well, that's exactly how our Republic was designed to be. We are only intended to cooperate in terms of defending the republic from outside threats at the national level.
#179 | POSTED BY BOAZ

That was the Articles of Confederation. They were replaced with the U.S. Constitution because they didn't work.

The Articles created a sovereign, national government, and, as such, limited the rights of the states to conduct their own diplomacy and foreign policy. However, this proved difficult to enforce, as the national government could not prevent the state of Georgia from pursuing its own independent policy regarding Spanish Florida, attempting to occupy disputed territories and threatening war if Spanish officials did not work to curb Indian attacks or refrain from harboring escaped slaves. Nor could the Confederation government prevent the landing of convicts that the British Government continued to export to its former colonies. In addition, the Articles did not allow Congress sufficient authority to enforce provisions of the 1783 Treaty of Paris that allowed British creditors to sue debtors for pre-Revolutionary debts, an unpopular clause that many state governments chose to ignore. Consequently, British forces continued to occupy forts in the Great Lakes region. These problems, combined with the Confederation government's ineffectual response to Shays' Rebellion in Massachusetts, convinced national leaders that a more powerful central government was necessary. This led to the Constitutional Convention that formulated the current Constitution of the United States.history.state.gov

#205 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2018-12-08 09:27 PM | Reply

I dont see it as either/or.

Sometimes local control is better, as per #201 above.

Sometimes federal control is better, such as requiring truth in product labeling.

Sometimes local control is terrible, such as in the past when we did have separate bathrooms and water fountains.

Sometimes federal control is terrible, such as federally making marijuana illegal or when a single president caused multitudes of Japanese-Americans to go into concentration camps.

The last few examples are extreme, I admit.

I think it is easy to get caught up in either/or thinking instead of both/and thinking.

But again, getting back to an example of good local government, see #201 above.

#206 | Posted by Idependant97 at 2018-12-08 09:47 PM | Reply

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