Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, June 12, 2018

U.S. President Donald Trump made a stunning concession to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un on Tuesday about halting military exercises, pulling a surprise at a summit that baffled allies, military officials and lawmakers from his own Republican Party. At a news conference after the historic meeting with Kim in Singapore, Trump announced he would halt what he called "very provocative" and expensive regular military exercises that the United States holds with South Korea. That was sure to rattle close allies South Korea and Japan. North Korea has long sought an end to the war games. The two leaders promised in a joint statement after their meeting to work toward the "denuclearisation" of the Korean Peninsula and the United States promised its Cold War foe security guarantees, but they offered few specifics.

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Pelosi Statement on North Korea Summit:

"Nuclear nonproliferation is a pillar of America's national security. We respect any serious and real diplomatic efforts to achieve that goal on the Korean peninsula. Apparently, the President handed Kim Jong-un concessions in exchange for vague promises that do not approach a clear and comprehensive pathway to denuclearization and non-proliferation.

"In his haste to reach an agreement, President Trump elevated North Korea to the level of the United States while preserving the regime's status quo. The millions of families currently living in fear of nuclear weapons in the region deserve strong and smart leadership built on diplomacy and engagement with our regional partners and allies.

"The President's marginalization of the vast expertise of the State Department and his habitual disparaging of our allies as demonstrated at the G7 Forum hinders a lasting, stable pathway to peace."

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Trump Was Outfoxed in Singapore
www.nytimes.com

Nicholas Kristof: It sure looks as if President Trump was hoodwinked in Singapore.

Trump made a huge concession -- the suspension of military exercises with South Korea. That's on top of the broader concession of the summit meeting itself, security guarantees he gave North Korea and the legitimacy that the summit provides his counterpart, Kim Jong-un.

Within North Korea, the "very special bond" that Trump claimed to have formed with Kim will be portrayed this way: Kim forced the American president, through his nuclear and missile tests, to accept North Korea as a nuclear equal, to provide security guarantees to North Korea, and to cancel war games with South Korea that the North has protested for decades.

In exchange for these concessions, Trump seems to have won astonishingly little. In a joint statement, Kim merely "reaffirmed" the same commitment to denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula that North Korea has repeatedly made since 1992....


As I mentioned yesterday, it certainly appears as if Pres Trump gave up a lot in return for very little, unless you count the ability to build Trump Hotels on the NK waterfront...

This meeting looks like the start of a beginning of a long process. I hope future meetings are more even in their benefits to the negotiating parties.

#1 | Posted by LampLighter at 2018-06-12 11:23 AM | Reply


Another view:

twitter.com

... Bruce Klingner
@BruceKlingner

Senior Research Fellow for Northeast Asia @Heritage. 20 years @CIA and DIA, including as CIA's Deputy Division Chief for Korea. Views expressed are my own.

This is very disappointing. Each of the four main points was in previous documents with NK, some in a stronger, more encompassing way. The denuke bullet is weaker than the Six Party Talks language. And no mention of CVID, verification, human rights.
12:51 AM - 12 Jun 2018



[CVID - complete, verifiable and irreversible denuclearization]

#2 | Posted by LampLighter at 2018-06-12 11:31 AM | Reply

This meeting looks like the start of a beginning of a long process. I hope future meetings are more even in their benefits to the negotiating parties.

#1 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER

Agreed. This shouldn't be ballyhooed all that much, nor should this agreement be crapped on all that much. It's a beginning of a process. Nothing more. For the process to continue, Trump and Kim both will have to make good on the promises that have initially been made. I think it's important that S. Korea gave its blessing to halt (at least temporarily) the war games in S. Korea.

#3 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-12 11:45 AM | Reply


@#3 ... It's a beginning of a process. Nothing more. ...

I'd just prefer if Pres Trump gave more to our allies and less to dictatorships...

China Gets Everything It Wanted From Trump's Meeting With Kim
www.bloomberg.com

...

Score one for China, America's rival. America's friends, Japan and South Korea, didn't do so well.

The biggest winner from President Donald Trump's summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un -- aside from Kim himself -- was unquestionably the government of President Xi Jinping, which had been advocating the very process that Trump has now embarked upon.

In talks with Kim on Tuesday in Singapore, Trump committed to an open-ended negotiating process and said the U.S. would also suspend military exercises with South Korea. Given that North Korea has halted missile and nuclear tests, that amounted to the dialogue and "suspension-for-suspension" model that China has advocated for years.

For good measure, Trump again called Xi a close friend and thanked him for China's role in strengthening sanctions against North Korea. Xi's presence hung over Tuesday's talks: China's leader met twice with Kim in recent weeks and an Air China Ltd jet ferried the North Korean ruler to Singapore from Pyongyang on June 10 ahead of the summit....


While it is good that we're not hearing the bellicose war-mongering of just a year or so ago, I am still wondering what did the United States get for all that Pres Trump gave up?

#4 | Posted by LampLighter at 2018-06-12 12:20 PM | Reply

I am still wondering what did the United States get for all that Pres Trump gave up?

#4 | Posted by LampLighter at 2018-06-12 12:20 PMFlag: (Choose)FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusive

Zip.

#5 | Posted by Zed at 2018-06-12 12:49 PM | Reply

"Trading our defense of South Korea for a promise is a lopsided deal that past presidents could have made but passed on," he said.

Yeah, but how could Trump pass up two days of primetime and all day free media?

You people just don't appreciate The Don's genius!

Besides, think of how much SK will appreciate us not training with them.

#6 | Posted by Corky at 2018-06-12 12:49 PM | Reply

Yeah, but how could Trump pass up two days of primetime and all day free media?

#6 | Posted by Corky

He was mesmerized by it like moth to a flame.

#7 | Posted by Zed at 2018-06-12 12:50 PM | Reply


Under the headline of:
Trump says he talked up North Korea's real estate, beachside hotel opportunities in Kim Jun Un meeting

Ian Bremmer writes:


ian bremmer
‏Verified account @ianbremmer
3h3 hours ago

The US may have gotten played.
Trump did not.
He got what he wanted.


#8 | Posted by LampLighter at 2018-06-12 01:31 PM | Reply

I am still wondering what did the United States get for all that Pres Trump gave up?

Bupkiss.

Trump got his nobel talking point. That's about it.

Lil Kim gave up nothing more than what has been given up since 1992. How well did those work out?

In the meantime he got to sit at the big boy table and be legitimized by Donny Dealmaker, something the cancervatives howled over Obama dared think about doing for the previous 8 years.

All staged Putin and China to give the cancervatives a PR bump going into the midterms.

#9 | Posted by 726 at 2018-06-12 01:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1


@#9 ... Bupkiss. ...

Cue Dick Van ----, Bupkis episode...
www.youtube.com

#10 | Posted by LampLighter at 2018-06-12 02:02 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Advertisement

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You people just don't appreciate The Don's genius!

Yeah!

We got the Trump-Kim document reaffirming our commitment to reaffirm our commitments. That was sheer genius!

Also, don't forget (because Humpy will never let you), Trump got 3 American spies released as a consolation prize.

#11 | Posted by donnerboy at 2018-06-12 05:15 PM | Reply

The Korean war is ending! Trump is bringing peace to the Korean peninsula.

#12 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2018-06-12 09:48 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

3 American spies released as a consolation prize.
#11 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY
Flag: North Korean propaganda bot.

#13 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2018-06-12 09:49 PM | Reply

We've stopped having parades. Dear god, the entire Pacific is going to fall apart.

#14 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-06-13 08:07 AM | Reply

Kim Jung Un talking about giving up a nuclear program which was crushed when a mountain collapsed on it is the biggest play on Donald Trump ever! People around the world are shaking their heads and wondering, "does this guy ever read a newspaper, listen to news?"

#15 | Posted by danni at 2018-06-13 08:43 AM | Reply

That was just a test site.

Do you really think their 60 estimated warheads were under that mountain?

#16 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-06-13 09:12 AM | Reply

This meeting looks like the start of a beginning of a long process. I hope future meetings are more even in their benefits to the negotiating parties.
#1 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER
Agreed. This shouldn't be ballyhooed all that much, nor should this agreement be crapped on all that much. It's a beginning of a process. Nothing more. For the process to continue, Trump and Kim both will have to make good on the promises that have initially been made. I think it's important that S. Korea gave its blessing to halt (at least temporarily) the war games in S. Korea.
#3 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

In the beginning of a negotiating process, one party doesn't usually start letting the other one call the shots without actually getting anything in return...

#17 | Posted by Sycophant at 2018-06-13 09:20 AM | Reply

Where is Hans to pull some early Obama-era quotes from all the cuckservatives here, parroting the Fox News line that Obama is weak for even suggesting he would talk to NK?

#18 | Posted by JOE at 2018-06-13 09:27 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

#18 Not to mention that ending the SK-US military exercises was a Putin idea. More and more comes out that this was all a PR stunt set up by Puting/China/NK.

Russia praises Trump's move to end South Korea war games
www.reuters.com
"Russia's Foreign Ministry praised U.S. President Donald Trump's move on Tuesday to end war games with South Korea, saying it was necessary to stop provocative actions to ease tensions on the peninsula.

Trump said after his summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un in Singapore that joint military exercises with South Korea would be halted."

WSJ: Putin gave Trump the idea for ending military exercises with South Korea
www.dailykos.com

Congrats GOP, you have a Russian asset as POTUS.

#19 | Posted by 726 at 2018-06-13 09:54 AM | Reply

NK state media just stated they don't have to start denuclearize until the US starts.

damn Trump is getting played.. but at least he's getting payed to be played.

Thanks conservatives.

#20 | Posted by klifferd at 2018-06-13 10:06 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#20 | Posted by klifferd at 2018-06-13 10:

I agree. Circumstantial evidence is that Trump accepted a bribe to have this summit.

#21 | Posted by Zed at 2018-06-13 10:08 AM | Reply

I agree. Circumstantial evidence is that Trump accepted a bribe to have this summit.

#21 | POSTED BY ZED

Link?

#22 | Posted by jpw at 2018-06-13 11:18 AM | Reply

"Link?"

www.nationalreview.com

China believes this is cheaper than a million refugees.

#23 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-06-13 11:23 AM | Reply

I'll translate this so even the dumbest alt-right moron can understand.

Trump is cutting and running, like the coward he is.

#24 | Posted by aborted_monson at 2018-06-13 11:24 AM | Reply

Ahhh that. Thanks.

This entire Korea thing is just a power play by China.

And DOTUS talking about pulling the troops from SK is exactly what they want.

We have a fool in the White House who's being played like a cheap orange fiddle.

#25 | Posted by jpw at 2018-06-13 11:25 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"This entire Korea thing is just a power play by China."

If Trump agrees to sign a peace treaty you will know the fix is in.

If there is no war there is no justification for keeping the troops stationed in South Korea.

If South Korea were to ask them to leave they would have to leave.

IPSO FACTO

China (and Russia) can then run the table.

That 2 step scenario is now well within China's reach.

#26 | Posted by donnerboy at 2018-06-13 05:48 PM | Reply

I bet its China that promised Kim a path to staying supreme leader. China has Trump under their thumb. China convinced Kim of this and will allow a murderous despot to maintain power. But should we be surprised? Considering Chinas history of propping up murderous despots? Not exactly a sore spot in their history.

#27 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-06-13 06:01 PM | Reply

*for them at least.

#28 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-06-13 06:01 PM | Reply

#25

His "expertise" is in real estate. Which is why that was his Trump card with Kim, "imagine the real estate possibilities!" He is so limited in his understanding of international affairs and refuses to learn, so we get this.

Thanks DNC, you bought and now own this.

#29 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-06-13 06:03 PM | Reply

We've stopped having parades. Dear god, the entire Pacific is going to fall apart.

#14 | Posted by sitzkrieg

If this wasn't a loss for america, you wouldn't have to lie about what happened.

You know who wanted these joint exercises to stop? North Korea and Russia.

#30 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-06-13 06:04 PM | Reply

#30

And China.

#31 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 06:06 PM | Reply

You know who wanted these joint exercises to stop?

#30 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Pretty much all of the left, until this happened.

6 months ago the left was accusing Trump of saber-rattling and agitating for war with N Korea. Halting war games should be something that is cheered by the left, assuming their earlier criticisms were sincere.

#32 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 06:10 PM | Reply

6 months ago the left was accusing Trump of saber-rattling and agitating for war with N Korea. Halting war games should be something that is cheered by the left, assuming their earlier criticisms were sincere.

#32 | Posted by JeffJ

If you had decent argument, you wouldn't have to pretend wanting to stop trump's verbal antagonism is the same thing as wanting to stop military exercises with south korea.

But anything to discredit the left (the party which didn't elect a con man) in favor of the trumpers (who you laughably claim not to support) right?

#33 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-06-13 06:17 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If you had decent argument, you wouldn't have to pretend wanting to stop trump's verbal antagonism is the same thing as wanting to stop military exercises with south korea.

You think calling Kim "Little Rocket Man" is more antagonistic than engaging in war exercises on NK's doorstep?

#34 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 06:28 PM | Reply

Also, you need to understand what a defense is. Calling out LW (or RW hypocrisy) is not a defense of anything.

#35 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 06:28 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Those exercises were provocative and unnecessary anyway. So long as the South doesn't mind, why shouldn't we regard this as a productive step towards peace (which saves money too)?

#36 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 06:35 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Those exercises were provocative and unnecessary anyway. So long as the South doesn't mind, why shouldn't we regard this as a productive step towards peace (which saves money too)?

#36 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

NW.

As I've said repeatedly now, we need to wait and see how this all plays out. But, if Kim was even remotely sincere, this is at least a somewhat encouraging first step.

#37 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 06:37 PM | Reply

Also, you need to understand what a defense is. Calling out LW (or RW hypocrisy) is not a defense of anything.

#35 | Posted by JeffJ

No but PRETENDING the other side is hypocritical is a defense of trump.

And yes, to egomaniacs like kim and trump, words are just as inflammatory as military exercises, if not more. Kim attacked the USA over a MOVIE portrayal of him, or don't you remember?

#38 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-06-13 06:38 PM | Reply

"You know who wanted these joint exercises to stop?

Pretty much all of the left, until this happened."

Wrong, and irrelevant to boot.

The correct answer:
North Korea.
China.
Russia.

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 06:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Speaks,

Hypocrisy abounds on both sides of the hyper-partisan divide. You are willfully blind if you don't see it.

#40 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 06:42 PM | Reply

The only deal should have been for Kim to step aside as Dictator. Allow the country to unite. And make the Kim family into figure heads. The same as the Royal family of England.

Anything less is stupid.

Which is why Trump and the Trumpublicans are so excited. Because Trump landed a real estate deal. And Trumpublicans are morons.

#41 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 06:45 PM | Reply

"The only deal should have been for Kim to step aside as Dictator. Allow the country to unite. And make the Kim family into figure heads. The same as the Royal family of England.
Anything less is stupid."

...say what?

#42 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 06:52 PM | Reply

#42

You confused, Dirk?

#43 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 06:54 PM | Reply

You confused, Dirk?

#43 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-06-13 06:54 PM | FLAG:

Frankly, yes.

"The only sane solution is reunification into an institutional monarchy!" Where are you getting this?

#44 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 06:58 PM | Reply

Constitutional monarchy, that is.

#45 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 07:03 PM | Reply

Hypocrisy abounds on both sides of the hyper-partisan divide. You are willfully blind if you don't see it.
#40 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

As are those that don't see the magnitude of difference. Both parties suck. Both parties do not equally suck. Anyone that suggests they are equally hypocritically is a hack.

#46 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-06-13 07:08 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

hypocritical*

#47 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-06-13 07:09 PM | Reply

"The only sane solution is reunification into an institutional monarchy!" Where are you getting this?

I'm not sure what an institutional monarchy is. Do you mean constitutional monarchy?

As far as where I'm getting it from. I lived in Korea town for 8 years and have a lot of Korean friends. They would love a reunified Korea. The only way for that to happen would be for Kim Jong-Un to step down as Dictator and allow South Korea to absorb the north.

In order to appease Kim you'd have to make him some sort of figure head who is well respected by the nation yet doesn't really have any authority. Much like the Queen of England is well respected and lives quite luxuriously, yet doesn't get involved in parliament.

#48 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:09 PM | Reply

"So long as the South doesn't mind, why shouldn't we regard this as a productive step towards peace (which saves money too)?"

Up until yesterday, right-wingers knew "The price of frredom is eternal vigilance."

Today, they're farting rainbows.

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:09 PM | Reply

Constitutional monarchy, that is.

Oh, okay.

Well. If #48 doesn't clear things up more. Let me know.

#50 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:10 PM | Reply

"We have always been at war^H^H^H peace with Eastasia^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H North Korea."
--Right Wingers

#51 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:14 PM | Reply

Clown,

Even if that (somewhat strange) solution is the way to go (and surely it isn't the only way) it doesn't follow that the US should ask for it right out of the gate! You have to open a dialogue, take small steps to prepare for big ones.

#52 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 07:15 PM | Reply

Hypocrisy abounds on both sides of the hyper-partisan divide. You are willfully blind if you don't see it.

#40 | Posted by JeffJ

False equivalencies abound on YOUR side of the fake-nonpartisan divide.

But by calling OTHERS hyperpartisan you can pretend you're better than that, even though you're always on the same partisan side.

#53 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2018-06-13 07:16 PM | Reply

"Up until yesterday, right-wingers knew "The price of frredom is eternal vigilance.""

Yes, yes. Right wingers are hypocrites. In other news, water is wet. That doesn't change the fact that peace talks with an old enemy are a good thing.

#54 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 07:17 PM | Reply

The only deal should have been for Kim to step aside as Dictator. Allow the country to unite. And make the Kim family into figure heads. The same as the Royal family of England.
Anything less is stupid.
Which is why Trump and the Trumpublicans are so excited. Because Trump landed a real estate deal. And Trumpublicans are morons.

#41 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Since none of that is ever going to happen, how about we pull our heads out of the sand and operate under reality.

#55 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Up until yesterday, right-wingers knew "The price of frredom is eternal vigilance.""
Yes, yes. Right wingers are hypocrites. In other news, water is wet. That doesn't change the fact that peace talks with an old enemy are a good thing.

#54 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN A

Exactly. I fully supported Obama trying to normalize relations with Cuba. It hasn't borne any fruit, but it didn't make matters worse and it was certainly better than clinging to the same policy that hadn't worked for the past 5 decades.

#56 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:20 PM | Reply

As are those that don't see the magnitude of difference. Both parties suck. Both parties do not equally suck. Anyone that suggests they are equally hypocritically is a hack.

#46 | POSTED BY INDIANAJONES

Mea culpa. Yes, both sides suck. The Dems/Left such much more. :-)

#57 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:24 PM | Reply

Since none of that is ever going to happen, how about we pull our heads out of the sand and operate under reality.

Why don't you lead the way and drop your "what if?" scenarios and whataboutisims.

#58 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:24 PM | Reply

It hasn't borne any fruit

#56 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2018-06-13 07:20 PM | FLAG:

Well, his successor and the GOP didn't help the cause. Nor did the leadership changes in Cuba.

#59 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 07:25 PM | Reply

Cuba is nothing like North Korea, because Cuba doesn't have nukes.

Iran is a lot more like North Korea, because Iran has nukes.

How'd you feel about the Iran deal?

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:25 PM | Reply

Why don't you lead the way and drop your "what if?" scenarios and whataboutisims.

#58 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

There is no feasible way of removing Kim from power externally outside of full-out war. Do you support that? I sure as hell don't. So, given that reality, you take what you can get from there.

#61 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:26 PM | Reply

#60 I thought it sucked for a number of reasons.

#62 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:26 PM | Reply

"it was certainly better than clinging to the same policy that hadn't worked for the past 5 decades."

What part of our Korea policy hasn't worked for five decades?

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:27 PM | Reply

60 I thought it sucked for a number of reasons.

#62 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2018-06-13 07:26 PM | FLAG:

Such as?

#64 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 07:27 PM | Reply

How'd you feel about the Iran deal?

#60 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

By his own metric, I'm guessing Clown was vehemently opposed to it.

#65 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:28 PM | Reply

Considering the Korean division was a result of America's loss in the Korean War.

I don't see why wanting a unified Korea is such a crazy idea.

Anything short of demanding a unified Korea literally represents America's impotence.

Trump's impotence becomes America's impotence. And Trumpublicans cheer on America's dwindling world presence.

#66 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:28 PM | Reply

#64

All of the lies and deceptions that went into it is where I'd start.

#67 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:29 PM | Reply

"#60 I thought it sucked for a number of reasons."

Of course you did.

Why doesn't this "deal" look just as bad if not worse?

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:29 PM | Reply

How'd you feel about the Iran deal?
#60 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

By his own metric, I'm guessing Clown was vehemently opposed to it.
#65 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

You can't even answer a question directed to you.

You're a joke.

But at least you've found your safe space inside you strawhut.

#69 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:30 PM | Reply

Why even bring up the Iran deal?

This is so fundamentally different...the 2 aren't even remotely comparable.

#70 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:31 PM | Reply

Kim might accept a face saving resignation ("Uniter of Korea!" "Father of the new nation!" "Peace Maker") without a title in the new government, so long as he could get in on the ground floor of all the new investment in the North (ie massive riches).

Just discussing this makes me mildly ill...

#71 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 07:31 PM | Reply

Why doesn't this "deal" look just as bad if not worse?

Because Jeff loves him some Trump Rump.

He heats it up to 76 degrees then shoves his head right in.

#72 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:32 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"All of the lies and deceptions that went into it is where I'd start."

By all meams, start.

Also, are you including the deception of the Stuxnet worm, which demonstrated our ability to disrupt Iran's nuclear capacity in ways beyond their comprehension? Because that "stick" helped bring Iran to the table. We've done no such show of force with North Korea, yet you like that "deal" better.

#73 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:32 PM | Reply

You can't even answer a question directed to you.
You're a joke.
But at least you've found your safe space inside you strawhut.

#69 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Joke? Take up remedial reading comprehension. See #60 and #67.

#74 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:32 PM | Reply

- Why even bring up the Iran deal?

Maybe because even Republican Sens are demanding that they be able to authorize any NK deal as a treaty.

#75 | Posted by Corky at 2018-06-13 07:33 PM | Reply

#72 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

You are either trolling or you are completely unhinged. Not sure which.

#76 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:33 PM | Reply

Why even bring up the Iran deal?
This is so fundamentally different...the 2 aren't even remotely comparable.

You're right.

The Iran deal was in exchange for Iran to halt its nuclear ambitions.

The North Korea deal is for some real estate rights.

Gonna be some nice condos going up.

#77 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:34 PM | Reply

"Why even bring up the Iran deal?"

Because both the Iran and NK deals are about nuclear proliferation, but the Cuba thing is about trade.

Stop deflecting to Cuba, it's not in the same ballpark, it's not even the same sport.

#78 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:34 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

- Why even bring up the Iran deal?
Maybe because even Republican Sens are demanding that they be able to authorize any NK deal as a treaty.
#75 | POSTED BY CORKY

OK. And this clearly hasn't reached that point. This is a first-step at best. Nothing more. I don't know why so many people are getting all up-in-arms over this.

#79 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:35 PM | Reply

Iran has nukes.

Breaking news!!

Link??

#80 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:36 PM | Reply | Funny: 3

- Nothing more.

Not according to Trump.... according to him, this is the biggest deal since Vlad sent the pee hookers to his room in Moscow.

#81 | Posted by Corky at 2018-06-13 07:36 PM | Reply

"I don't know why so many people are getting all up-in-arms over this."

Easy.

Pencil in all the reasons you opposed the Iran deal.

Those reasons were fake when it came to Iran, but real when it comes to this deal.

Go ahead, start penciling, I'll walk you through understanding them.

You're afraid to start penciling.

#82 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:37 PM | Reply

Even if that (somewhat strange) solution is the way to go (and surely it isn't the only way) it doesn't follow that the US should ask for it right out of the gate! You have to open a dialogue, take small steps to prepare for big ones.

#52 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2018-06-13 07:15 PM

From a diplomacy standpoint this is exactly correct.

A sure sign that this has completely thrown the Left for a loop is Dirk is suddenly the voice of reason on the DR Left.

Well done.

#83 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-06-13 07:38 PM | Reply

"Iran has nukes.
Breaking news!!
Link??"

LOL!
Iran is a lot closer than Cuba to having nukes, at least since 1963.
Cuba doesn't even have a nuclear program, though maybe they should start one to gain some concessions from Trump...

#84 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:41 PM | Reply

Iran has nukes.

Well, that proves that the Iran Deal was a total failure, right Snoofy?

#85 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-06-13 07:42 PM | Reply

- Nothing more.
Not according to Trump.... according to him, this is the biggest deal since Vlad sent the pee hookers to his room in Moscow.
#81 | POSTED BY CORKY A

I get that and maybe that is what is causing this massive over-reaction - Trump touting it for WAY more than what it is.

#82 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

That's just dumb. That Iran deal was a signed contract with all sorts of terms and conditions spelled out. This is the opening salvo in what I hope is a progression toward an actual deal. Both parties made a couple of promises and both kept everything in place to be able to break said promises on a whim. I'd say you are comparing apples and oranges but that would be an understatement. You are comparing grapes and watermelon.

#86 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:42 PM | Reply

RoC agreed with Dirk and suddenly he's handing out compliments.

You sure you don't want to call him Boyd or something?

You feigning praise makes you seem even more desperate.

#87 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:44 PM | Reply

#83 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER

Did you notice that Dirk touted the money savings of temporarily canceling provocative war games? At least that is consistent with lefties blasting the MIC and claiming we need to cut back drastically on military spending. It's amazing how some of them immediately become hawks when Trump does a wee-bit of what they've been clamoring for.

#88 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#87 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

What are you saying? If Dirk says something that Righto finds reasonable and agrees with he should attack him anyway?

What has gotten into you today? You are normally far more reasonable than this.

#89 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:45 PM | Reply

"That Iran deal was a signed contract with all sorts of terms and conditions spelled out."

Meaningless, because you opposed it long before it got to that state.

#90 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:46 PM | Reply

#88

Nobody is becoming a warhawk, Jeff. That's just more straw.

No one, that I've read, has suggested military action against North Korea.

We're just not as optimistic about this "deal" as you Trumpublicans seem to be.

#91 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:47 PM | Reply

No, it's not meaningless. I can list all of the things about the Iran deal I disagreed with. If Trump and Kim reach a similar stage, I'll be able to do the same. I am not going to argue for or against a bunch of hypotheticals.

#92 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:48 PM | Reply

We're just not as optimistic about this "deal" as you Trumpublicans seem to be.

#91 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Are you suggesting that all of the crap on this thread can be distilled down to a difference in degree of optimism over this "deal"?

#93 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:50 PM | Reply

"Did you notice that Dirk touted the money savings of temporarily canceling provocative war games? At least that is consistent with lefties blasting the MIC and claiming we need to cut back drastically on military spending."

^
That's either a lie or profound ignorance

There will be no "drastic" spending cut from this, and Trump has requested a 10% increase in defense spending.

We will just play war games with someone else.

Defense spending is tiny compared to health care anyway, and all indications are it's going to go up, even if these exercises do get cancelled.

#94 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:50 PM | Reply

You sure you don't want to call him Boyd or something?

He answers to both but obviously prefers Dirk, it's called positive reinforcement.

#95 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-06-13 07:51 PM | Reply

If Dirk says something that Righto finds reasonable and agrees with he should attack him anyway?

If Sniper suddenly made a post I could agree with, I wouldn't make it a point to complement him.

Seems desperate for someone who regularly rags on Dirk to comment on how great his perspective is.

#96 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:52 PM | Reply

"I can list all of the things about the Iran deal I disagreed with."

You say that, but you're not going to do that.

See how that works?

#97 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:52 PM | Reply

Nobody is becoming a warhawk, Jeff. That's just more straw...

#91 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Really?

Please explain this (aside from the fact that your assertion was patently false):

You support an supposed deal where we give up our military presence in South Korea....

POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK


That sounds pretty hawkish to me.

#98 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:53 PM | Reply

#96

I have complimented you on posts before, you sure didn't bitch about it then.

Is there something you want to share with the group as to why you are such an azzclown today? Use your words, it will be okay.

#99 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-06-13 07:54 PM | Reply

I can list all of the things about the Iran deal I disagreed with.

It all boils down to "Obama".

If Trump and Kim reach a similar stage,

If? Then what's all this celebration over?

You'd think Trump actually did something worthy of recognition.

#100 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:54 PM | Reply

You say that, but you're not going to do that.
See how that works?

#97 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

That's because this thread isn't about the Iran deal and, as I already said, comparing the 2 deals at this stage is watermelons and grapes.

#101 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:54 PM | Reply

"Seems desperate for someone who regularly rags on Dirk to comment on how great his perspective is."

Reminds me of the mean things Trump said about NK in the past vs. the complimentary things he says these days.

Quite the coincidence, that!

#102 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:55 PM | Reply

If? Then what's all this celebration over?
You'd think Trump actually did something worthy of recognition.

#100 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Dude. You are completely unhinged. Read my actual comments about this deal, not some fantasy you've invented in your butthurt head.

#103 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:56 PM | Reply

But, if Kim was even remotely sincere, this is at least a somewhat encouraging first step.
#37 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

What makes you think a murderous despot would be? And why would you even consider him to be when you KNOW he's a murderous despot?

The Right is giving far too much credence to Kim just to absolve Trump of his behavior.

It's really sad and I expected more from you, Jeff.

#104 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-06-13 07:56 PM | Reply

"That's because this thread isn't about the Iran deal and, as I already said, comparing the 2 deals at this stage is watermelons and grapes"

It's because you are a coward who consistently refuses to justify your beliefs with facts.

#105 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 07:56 PM | Reply

You support an supposed deal where we give up our military presence in South Korea....

That sounds pretty hawkish to me.

Really? Because not giving up our military presence is the same as let's go to war?

I guess. If your desperate. Which, you seem to be.

#106 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 07:57 PM | Reply

Peace out, all. This discussion has become circular.

#107 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 07:57 PM | Reply

so much for how tough trump is.

#108 | Posted by Tor at 2018-06-13 08:01 PM | Reply

I have complimented you on posts before, you sure didn't bitch about it then.

Good for you. You sure don't chase me around from thread to thread calling my Boyd and mocking me.

Your complement seems disingenuous.

#109 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 08:02 PM | Reply

"Peace out, all. This discussion has become circular."

^
The capitulation noise of a coward.

#110 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 08:06 PM | Reply

#110

No, it's the noise of someone who has better things to do (I am going to clean a couple of bathrooms) than to continue to engage in a circular discussion with your inanities.

#111 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 08:09 PM | Reply

You're chicken.
BAWK!!!

#112 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 08:09 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"than to continue to engage in a circular discussion"

It would be a very linear process.

You list your numerous objections to the Iran deal, and I demonstrate how they apply to North Korea.

The real stumbling block for you is you can't even state the actual reasons you oppose the Iran deal.

I'm calling your bluff.

And the truth is, you're wise to fold, because you've got nothing.

See how that works?

Now, go get your steps in, kid.

#113 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 08:13 PM | Reply

He answers to both but obviously prefers Dirk,

#95 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER AT 2018-06-13 07:51 PM | FLAG:

I answer to both because it is obvious that you are referring to me. That doesn't make you any less mistaken about my being the latest incarnation of this Boyd person.

#114 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:15 PM | Reply

Good for you. You sure don't chase me around from thread to thread calling my Boyd and mocking me.
Your complement seems disingenuous.
#109 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-06-13 08:02 PM | FLAG:

The fact wasn't lost on me.

#115 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:16 PM | Reply

The fact wasn't lost on me.

Didn't assume it would be.

#116 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 08:18 PM | Reply

"Really? Because not giving up our military presence is the same as let's go to war?"

Well, isn't it at least more hawkish than not giving up one's military presence?

Anyway, it is a guesture. The US still has an obligation to defend the South, but now it can do so in ways that look less provocative to the North (ie the South is still under the American Nuclear umbrella).

#117 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:19 PM | Reply

"What makes you think a murderous despot would be? And why would you even consider him to be when you KNOW he's a murderous despot?"

Even despots are capable of sincerity... sometimes more so even than elected leaders.

But this isn't about Kim's sincerity. It is about Trump's. Making a concession like this so early in the game gives vital reassurance to a regime justifiably cautious towards the US.

#118 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:22 PM | Reply

You sure don't chase me around from thread to thread calling my Boyd and mocking me.

If you keep doubling down on the stupid with ideas like forcing the Kim family to accept some farcical constitutional monarchy (LOL) then I might have to start.

#119 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-06-13 08:25 PM | Reply

North Korea is only sustained by the support they receive from China.

Pandering to them and giving up military exercises with South Korea does nothing but make America important.

This isn't a good negotiation. This isn't even negotiating. It's capitulation.

North Korea gets what it wants and we don't get anything. North Korea has been screaming for attention for decades. It took Donnie Dump to give it to them. In exchange for real estate rights.

Considering North Korea doesn't have any leverage. How are they out negotiating America?

Asking for Kim to step down is a good start to negotiations.

But. Perhaps none of you know what negotiating means. You may believe a good deal is when you pay sticker price for a new car. I mean. What other options are there?

#120 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 08:38 PM | Reply

*does nothing but make America impotent.

#121 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 08:39 PM | Reply

Donnie's deal with North Korea is about as good as his deal with Mexico to pay for the wall.

We must be at least half way done with that thing, right?

#122 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 08:41 PM | Reply

"Asking for Kim to step down is a good start to negotiations."

It's a non-starter.

#123 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:42 PM | Reply

The US still has an obligation to defend the South, but now it can do so in ways that look less provocative to the North

Oh no!! Let's not do anything to upset the North Koreans!

They might blow up another mountain along their border with China.

#124 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 08:44 PM | Reply

"North Korea gets what it wants and we don't get anything."

That's just not true. The concession shows that the US is really willing to deal.

#125 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:44 PM | Reply

It's a non-starter.

It is with that attitude.

#126 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 08:45 PM | Reply

Attempts to paint lipstick on this so of a summit are laughable.

Singapore was just another example of Trump farting around for attention and money.

#127 | Posted by Zed at 2018-06-13 08:46 PM | Reply

They might blow up another mountain along their border with China.

#124 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-06-13 08:44 PM | FLAG:

You joke, but yeah, actually. Nuclear weapons cause nuclear accidents. Do you want your biggest trading partners disrupted by fallout from tests gone wrong? Or suppose the North builds a nice, big arsenal out of fear of the US and others: would you want that arsenal on a perpetual hair-trigger?

#128 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:48 PM | Reply

That's just not true.

Other than a real estate deal. How is North Korea conceding?

Their nuclear program is already in shambles. So their "offer" is nothing.

#129 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 08:48 PM | Reply

So of a summit, or inshory, pig.

Stop imagining qualities to Trump he doesn't have.

#130 | Posted by Zed at 2018-06-13 08:49 PM | Reply

Do you want your biggest trading partners disrupted by fallout from tests gone wrong?

Our biggest trade partner is the only nation keeping North Korea from falling apart. If they want the tests to stop, what does that have to do with us? Nothing.

Try again.

#131 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 08:50 PM | Reply

You may believe a good deal is when you pay sticker price for a new car. I mean. What other options are there?

You don't walk into the car dealership demanding that they give you the dealership as a precursor to you buying a car.

#132 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-06-13 08:50 PM | Reply

#126

Clown, it is bizarre. And it is too much, too fast. The two sides are barely talking as it is.

Trump: "Stick with me, Kimmy baby... and I'll make you a QUEEN."

Kim: "....are you hitting on me?"

Trump: "Ummm I meant LIKE the queen... of England, you know? You see, first we unify Korea and we change up your wardrobe a bit...."

#133 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:51 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Our biggest trade partner is the only nation keeping North Korea from falling apart. If they want the tests to stop, what does that have to do with us?"

Maybe the fact that the weapons belong tested are a defense against you and not them. Likewise, the winds go where they will. How do you feel about the South getting irradiated?

#134 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:53 PM | Reply

"How is North Korea conceding?"

I never said they were. The US concession shows that the US is serious about negotiating. All else comes later.

"Their nuclear program is already in shambles."

Even if this were true (it isn't) it is easily fixed.

#135 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:56 PM | Reply

"Our biggest trade partner is the only nation keeping North Korea from falling apart."

Canada is doing all that? :)

#136 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 08:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Canada is doing all that? :)

#136 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2018-06-13 08:56 PM | FLAG:

Never count them out, I always say.

#137 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 08:57 PM | Reply

"North Korea is only sustained by the support they receive from China."

They get some support from the Russian mob as well.

Russian mafia, where else have I heard that in the news lately..

Fun fact, when I worked for the fishing company, the Russian captain that went rogue and wouldn't surrender the vessels under his command ported in North Korea. Our boats ported in South Korea. Small world!

#138 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 08:59 PM | Reply

"You don't walk into the car dealership demanding that they give you the dealership as a precursor to you buying a car."

Hey RightOCenter,

Why would you buy a car from the dealer who decided to run human experiments on Otto Warmbier in the first place?

They must have something you can't get anywhere else.

What is it?

#139 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 09:02 PM | Reply

You don't walk into the car dealership demanding that they give you the dealership as a precursor to you buying a car.

I'd much rather walk in demanding they give me the dealership than walk in and grab my ankles.

Our relationship with North Korea isn't anything new.

The only thing new is Trump's approach of capitulating.

#140 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 09:04 PM | Reply

#139

Nobody is disputing that the regime is awful. So what is the answer? Isolate them to death? Invasion hasn't been a real option in a long time. Engage with them and try to influence their policies?

#141 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 09:05 PM | Reply

"So what is the answer?"

Take a step back.

What is the question?

The more I think about it, the more I think Trump needs a way to launder money.

#142 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 09:07 PM | Reply

"Our relationship with North Korea isn't anything new."

When's the last time they met with a US leader? When's the last time they even made noises about even considering disarming?

#143 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 09:07 PM | Reply

#113 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

[stamp]
Please explain. Your claim is ridiculous. Stop repeating what you hear and educate yourself. What exactly was that supposed to prove? When your point is based entirely on an assumption, you didn't have a point to begin with. In order to make your point, you had to make something up completely. See the problem? Anything else that you would like to make up? The rest of your post was just mindless. I think you have only shown that you assume too much.
Do you ever actually understand what you are commenting on or does stupidity just take hold? Does anyone really understand what this person is babbling about?
[/stamp]

#144 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 09:08 PM | Reply

"Take a step back."

From what? They are a pariah state. This is the first diplomatic ray of hope almost in living memory. So? Should it be taken or not?

#145 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 09:08 PM | Reply

"When's the last time they even made noises about even considering disarming?"

1990s, as I recall.

How come nobody is asking Pakistan or Israel to disarm?

#146 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 09:09 PM | Reply

How come nobody is asking Pakistan or Israel to disarm?

#146 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2018-06-13 09:09 PM | FLAG:

Maybe they should be. Let's make it a world tour.

#147 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 09:10 PM | Reply

The over 23k military stationed there are not going anywhere for the near future so no worries.

#148 | Posted by MSgt at 2018-06-13 09:10 PM | Reply

"From what? They are a pariah state. This is the first diplomatic ray of hope almost in living memory. So? Should it be taken or not?"

I'm simply asking to define the problem before you start proposing solutions.

What is the problem with North Korea, currently, today? What needs fixing, not from the point of view of the average North Korean, but for me and you.

#149 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 09:12 PM | Reply

"Please explain. Your claim is ridiculous."

Steps are done?
Great.

Now go get your shine box.

#150 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 09:14 PM | Reply

When's the last time they met with a US leader?

North Korea isn't in a position to make demands. The president of the United States should be entering the negotiations with the upper hand.

Again. How was this a negotiation when all trump did was concede?

When's the last time they even made noises about even considering disarming?

All the time. Every missile they launched was a desperate attempt for attention.

Every president has ignored them.

You shouldn't reward bad behavior.

#151 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 09:15 PM | Reply

I'm simply asking to define the problem before you start proposing solutions.
What is the problem with North Korea, currently, today? What needs fixing, not from the point of view of the average North Korean, but for me and you.

#149 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2018-06-13 09:12 PM | FLAG:

First problem: why shouldn't we consider the interests of the Borth Korean?

As for what needs fixing? An escalating conflict with a desperate, nuclear armed rogue state. They will continue to make trouble if something isn't done. I've already posted about nuclear stuff. What about North Korea's other criminal activities? Peace would potentially put an end to it, show them a better way to sustain themselves.

How about the ongoing division of Korea? Families broken for decades by a military border...

#152 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 09:15 PM | Reply

Dirk is ruining this thread with logic.

From my perspective, "Yay! This is nice, but none of it's binding and neither side agreed to any verification or enforcement mechanisms. So, where do we go from here?"

Gotta start somewhere. That doesn't mean this will amount to anything meaningful as time passes, but it's an OK start.

#153 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 09:16 PM | Reply

"North Korea isn't in a position to make demands. The president of the United States should be entering the negotiations with the upper hand."

They can refuse to talk and continue to make trouble.

"Again. How was this a negotiation when all trump did was concede?"

I've already told you. Repeatedly. You just aren't listening.

"Every president has ignored them."

And now they have deliverable nuclear weapons.

#154 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 09:18 PM | Reply

North Korea, not Borth Korea. Damned keys.

#155 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 09:20 PM | Reply

"Gotta start somewhere."

And to do that, you have to show you are serious. Hence the concession. And now, like Clown says, you have to push. Show this isn't another aid for temporary good behavior scheme: this is about true peace in the region, trade, mutual prosperity, Hotels instead of cannons and butter instead of guns.

#156 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 09:23 PM | Reply

"First problem: why shouldn't we consider the interests of the Borth Korean?"

That's Kim's role, is why.

"An escalating conflict with a desperate, nuclear armed rogue state."

I don't see the escalation, or the desperation. Rogue state is just a pejorative way to say sovereign state.

"They will continue to make trouble if something isn't done."

You mean the trouble of launching missiles over Japan?

"What about North Korea's other criminal activities? Peace would potentially put an end to it, show them a better way to sustain themselves."

You say peace, but it's not like they are at war.

You've listed lot of maximal possibilities but what's an actual thing that's really being negotiated here?

#157 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 09:28 PM | Reply

"That's Kim's role, is why."

It isn't that simple. Sanctions are starving the people to death. The US put those in place.

"You mean the trouble of launching missiles over Japan?"

I've explained this elsewhere. Nuclear weapons cause nuclear accidents. For starters.

"You say peace, but it's not like they are at war."

Technically the Korean War never ended.

"You've listed lot of maximal possibilities but what's an actual thing that's really being negotiated here?"

Nothing yet. That they talked with the US at all is a huge step. What do you want from a first meeting?

#158 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 09:32 PM | Reply

It isn't that simple. Sanctions are starving the people to death. The US put those in place.

Oh. I see. We're the bad guys.

Your perspective now makes sense, Dirk.

#159 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 09:39 PM | Reply

you have to push. Show this isn't another aid for temporary good behavior scheme: this is about true peace in the region, trade, mutual prosperity, Hotels instead of cannons and butter instead of guns.

#156 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

MUCH easier said than done, but I certainly agree in principle.

#160 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 09:40 PM | Reply

Oh. I see. We're the bad guys.
Your perspective now makes sense, Dirk.

#159 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-06-13 09:39 PM | FLAG:
Don't be simplistic.

#161 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 09:42 PM | Reply

why shouldn't we consider the interests of the [North] Korean[s]?

Because North Korea is expected to comply with decades of America's demands. Or they used to be. Now. They just need to give Trump some real estate rights.

An escalating conflict with a desperate, nuclear armed rogue state.

The only escalation is in your imagination.

They will continue to make trouble if something isn't done.

And the sun will continue to rise in the east.

Nuclear weapons cause nuclear accidents.

China should stop allowing North Korea to test nukes.

#162 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 09:44 PM | Reply

Oh. I see. We're the bad guys.
Your perspective now makes sense, Dirk.

#159 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Now you are being dishonest.

As for what needs fixing? An escalating conflict with a desperate, nuclear armed rogue state. They will continue to make trouble if something isn't done. I've already posted about nuclear stuff. What about North Korea's other criminal activities? Peace would potentially put an end to it, show them a better way to sustain themselves.
How about the ongoing division of Korea? Families broken for decades by a military border...

POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN A

"Take a step back."
From what? They are a pariah state. This is the first diplomatic ray of hope almost in living memory. So? Should it be taken or not?

POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT

#163 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 09:47 PM | Reply

Yes, both sides suck. The Dems/Left such much more. :-)
#57 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

At least, finally, an admission. Is your a** sore from leaning so far right while trying to sit on the fence all this time?

In order to appease Kim you'd have to make him some sort of figure head who is well respected by the nation yet doesn't really have any authority. Much like the Queen of England is well respected and lives quite luxuriously, yet doesn't get involved in parliament.
#48 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

If he's smart he'll take the George Washington approach and limit his own power and the power of his successors. Then reunification could potentially occur via democratic consensus by the North and South Korean citizens. His legacy would be far greater as the origin of reunification than it is as the temporary bearer of a sad dynasty.

#164 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2018-06-13 09:48 PM | Reply

Sanctions are starving the people to death. The US put those in place.

Should we remove sanctions on all countries?

#165 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 09:49 PM | Reply

"And to do that, you have to show you are serious. Hence the concession."

LOL.

Obama showed he was serious by setting Iran's nuclear program back by a couple years and a couple hundred million dollars.

Of course, that's easier before they have nukes, so there's that.

#166 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 09:51 PM | Reply

Now you are being dishonest.

No. Dirk's right. People are starving because of our sanctions.

So. Are you ready to remove them all?

I'm sure Iran would be happy to hear.

#167 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 09:51 PM | Reply

"Technically the Korean War never ended."

Technically there hasn't been armed conflict for about 70 years too.

Technically, England doesn't even have a Constitution. (Is that really true? Who cares.)

#168 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 09:53 PM | Reply

"What do you want from a first meeting?"

Remind me, what did I actually get?

#169 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 09:55 PM | Reply

Obama showed he was serious by setting Iran's nuclear program

Obama was a failure. Just ask Jeff. He hated the Iran deal. He just doesn't know why.

But this! This makes his ‘gina tingle.

#170 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 09:57 PM | Reply

North Korea, not Borth Korea. Damned keys.
#155 | Posted by DirkStruan

Aren't the Moops from Borth Korea?

#171 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-06-13 09:58 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Should we remove sanctions on all countries?

#165 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-06-13 09:49 PM | FLAG:

Stop being simplistic.

#172 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 10:03 PM | Reply

Remind me, what did I actually get?

#169 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2018-06-13 09:55 PM | FLAG:

The meeting itself and a possibility of another. Smile.

#173 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 10:04 PM | Reply

China should stop allowing North Korea to test nukes.
#162 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-06-13 09:44 PM | FLAG:

They can't or won't. So the problem remains.

#174 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 10:05 PM | Reply

Stop being simplistic.

You're the one that brought up the fact our sanctions are starving people.

Does it matter or doesn't it?

If so, shouldn't all be eliminated?

#175 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 10:06 PM | Reply

The meeting itself and a possibility of another.

North Korea has been begging for a meeting since Clinton was in office.

So. Again. We haven't gotten anything.

#176 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 10:07 PM | Reply

They can't or won't. So the problem remains.

Well. China is the only reason there is a North Korea.

So. Again. It's their problem. Not ours.

#177 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-13 10:09 PM | Reply

So. Again. It's their problem. Not ours.

I'm fairly sure China is not worried about being "nuked" by North Korea.

I'm actually surprised that the US is, but that's a different story.

#178 | Posted by REDIAL at 2018-06-13 10:13 PM | Reply

I'm fairly sure China is not worried about being "nuked" by North Korea.

Their man worry was, and continues to be, fallout from Nork nuclear experiments/US retaliation if they get too ambitious.

#179 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-06-13 10:28 PM | Reply

"Well. China is the only reason there is a North Korea. "

So true. And the United States is the only reason there's a South Korea.

Specifically, it was Maj. Frank Burns. Or maybe MacArthur. These guys all look the same to me.

#180 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 10:29 PM | Reply

"Remind me, what did I actually get?

The meeting itself and a possibility of another. Smile."

So the date ended with a kiss then, in your estimation?

#181 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 10:31 PM | Reply

"Remind me, what did I actually get?
The meeting itself and a possibility of another. Smile."
So the date ended with a kiss then, in your estimation?
#181 | Posted by snoofy

Donnie Dollhands didn't even get a reach around.

#182 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-06-13 10:40 PM | Reply

#170 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

You're either trolling or you are being fundamentally dishonest.

#183 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 10:43 PM | Reply

#183 Then say why you fundamentally oppose the Iran deal.

You won't. You can't.

See how that works?

#184 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-13 10:50 PM | Reply

You're the one that brought up the fact our sanctions are starving people.
Does it matter or doesn't it?
If so, shouldn't all be eliminated?

#175 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-06-13 10:06 PM | FLAG:

Yes I did bring it up and yes it does matter and yes they should be eliminated.... through the establishment of peaceful relations with North Korea. I am not sure why you are opposed to this.

#185 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 11:01 PM | Reply

So the date ended with a kiss then, in your estimation?
#181 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2018-06-13 10:31 PM | FLAG:

Indeed! I am downright optimistic over it all.

#186 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 11:02 PM | Reply

#183 Then say why you fundamentally oppose the Iran deal.
You won't. You can't.
See how that works?

#184 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I have on multiple occasions, on threads where the subject matter was the Iran deal.

Continue with this and you'll get the Ashton Stamp, again.

#187 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-13 11:04 PM | Reply

So. Again. It's their problem. Not ours.

#177 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2018-06-13 10:09 PM | FLAG:

Again, they are your trade partner, so what happens to them affects you. And there is still the small matter of ICBMs etc pointed at you. Do you want the country that has them on a war footing, finger poised on the button? Or nice and friendly and relaxed?

#188 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 11:04 PM | Reply

"North Korea has been begging for a meeting since Clinton was in office."

Citation needed.

#189 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-13 11:06 PM | Reply

Gosh, based on some of the replies I'm seeing it sounds like Dirk is actually talking sense. It's a pity he has to be such a nasty and disagreeable person in other threads.

#190 | Posted by sentinel at 2018-06-14 12:16 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Again, they are your trade partner, so what happens to them affects you.

Again, China is the only nation supporting the North Korean Nation. If nuclear fallout is undesirable. Then they should tell little Kimmy to cut it out.

I'm not sure why we are expected to make concessions.

#191 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-14 12:31 AM | Reply

"I'm not sure why we are expected to make concessions."

Because China holds our bond notes.

#192 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-06-14 12:34 AM | Reply

Apparently the Trumpublicans on this thread, and Dirk, feel like American policy towards North Korea has been wrong, for the past 70 years.

Apparently the North Koreans are innocent victims of US aggression and we're completely wrong.

It's been and eye opening thread.

Dirk, who knew you'd be such a fan of Trump. You should rethink your whole worldview.

#193 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-14 12:42 AM | Reply

Because China holds our bond notes.
#192 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

Thanks for an honest answer.

We're China's B¡t€H.

#194 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-14 12:44 AM | Reply

#193 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Can I sell you some more straw?

#195 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-14 12:48 AM | Reply

Dirk, who knew you'd be such a fan of Trump. You should rethink your whole worldview.

#193 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Dirk is a fan of Trump? Hilarious!

#196 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-14 12:49 AM | Reply

We're China's B¡t€H.

#194 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Hooray! Me, Danforth and Clownshack are all in complete agreement on this.

#197 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-14 12:54 AM | Reply

"Apparently ... feel like American policy towards North Korea has been wrong, for the past 70 years."

World circumstances have changed a lot in the past few years, not to mention the past 70 years. The 70 year old mindset you're espousing clearly has not worked nor helped to improve the lives of people living under that regime. You're defending the status quo.

#198 | Posted by sentinel at 2018-06-14 12:54 AM | Reply

"Apparently ... feel like American policy towards North Korea has been wrong, for the past 70 years."

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

This is a change from that and is a slightly encouraging first step.

#199 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-14 12:59 AM | Reply

#198

Trump is so altruistic. A real humanitarian. He's a misunderstood, stable genuious.

Please excuse the child internment camps.

#200 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-14 01:03 AM | Reply

Gosh, based on some of the replies I'm seeing it sounds like Dirk is actually talking sense. It's a pity he has to be such a nasty and disagreeable person in other threads.

#190 | POSTED BY SENTINEL AT 2018-06-14 12:16 AM | FLAG:

Stop celebrating child abuse and you'd be amazed how pleasant I can be.

#201 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-14 01:05 AM | Reply

"Apparently the North Koreans are innocent victims of US aggression and we're completely wrong."

Absurd strawman

#202 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-14 01:06 AM | Reply

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
This is a change from that and is a slightly encouraging first step.

Yet, peace negotiations with Iran was a bad idea? But. Baby steps with the North Koreans?

Holy moly dude. Can you be consistent?

#203 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-14 01:08 AM | Reply

"Trump is so altruistic. A real humanitarian. He's a misunderstood, stable genius."

Another strawman

#204 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-14 01:08 AM | Reply

In the end.

This needs to be a discussion between North and South Korea

At this point. The war is between them.

If they want to call truce. It should be easy enough to do so.

#205 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-14 01:11 AM | Reply

#204

It was two sentences. And sarcasm.

Take a deep breath and relax, Boyd.

#206 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-14 01:12 AM | Reply

"It was two sentences. And sarcasm."

Meant to imply what? That someone here thinks Trump is altruistic. Which is a Strawman.

"Take a deep breath and relax, Boyd."

A new low for you.

#207 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-14 01:19 AM | Reply

"This needs to be a discussion between North and South Korea."

Wrong again. The US had been involved since the literal start of the incident.

#208 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-14 01:21 AM | Reply

Yet, peace negotiations with Iran was a bad idea? But. Baby steps with the North Koreans?
Holy moly dude. Can you be consistent?

#203 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

I never said attempting peace negotiations with Iran was a bad idea. I adamantly stated that the deal that was agreed upon was horrendous and didn't even have full Dem support, much less any GOP support.

Why are you being so incredibly dishonest tonight?

#209 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-14 01:28 AM | Reply

#207 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I am getting great amusement how - in spite of your posting history - Clown is trying to paint you as a Trump-slappy.

It's really funny to watch.

Clown,

I would LOVE to see how you'd respond if Trump went full-bore-max bully pulpit pushing for single-payer healthcare. Given how you've been tonight, you'd probably join me in being vehemently opposed but for completely different reasons.

#210 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-14 01:32 AM | Reply

Seriously though. My opinions on the criminal regime in Washington are surely a matter of record by now. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate positive steps when I see them.

#211 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2018-06-14 01:42 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I am getting great amusement how - in spite of your posting history - Clown is trying to paint you as a Trump-slappy.

I'm trying to paint Dirk as a "Trump-sappy"?

What a drama queen you are.

#212 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-14 02:19 AM | Reply

Calling out LW (or RW hypocrisy) is not a defense of anything.

Since it's all you ever seem to do, i'm surprised you would admit that.

#213 | Posted by JOE at 2018-06-14 03:58 AM | Reply

For the process to continue, Trump and Kim both will have to make good on the promises that have initially been made.

Two liars making promises to each other! What could possibly go wrong?

#214 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2018-06-14 05:31 AM | Reply

Don't even need to read most of these posts from the haters. We have not stopped exercises and don't intend to unless Kim lives up to his end which no one knows the details of. And even if we did it does not prevent us from hammering Kim militarily at a split second's notice. But forget all that it is much more fun for the idiots to claim that Trump gave it all away with nothing in return and that Kim played him. They would rather have the world go to war than have NK get rid of his Nukes and have peace in the region if it means Trump gets any credit. Ironic that the haters are content with being more disruptive to this country than they claim Russia has been.

#215 | Posted by fishpaw at 2018-06-14 10:03 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Don't even need to read most of these posts from the haters. We have not stopped exercises and don't intend to unless Kim lives up to his end which no one knows the details of. And even if we did it does not prevent us from hammering Kim militarily at a split second's notice. But forget all that it is much more fun for the idiots to claim that Trump gave it all away with nothing in return and that Kim played him. They would rather have the world go to war than have NK get rid of his Nukes and have peace in the region if it means Trump gets any credit. Ironic that the haters are content with being more disruptive to this country than they claim Russia has been.

POSTED BY FISHPAW AT 2018-06-14 10:03 AM | REPLY

A fool and his mouth are easily parted.

#216 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2018-06-14 10:06 AM | Reply

Didn't you mean a fool and his ------?

#217 | Posted by fishpaw at 2018-06-14 12:01 PM | Reply

"I have on multiple occasions, on threads where the subject matter was the Iran deal."

Then it should be a piece of cake to link to those comments, or just reiterate them here.

But you can't, and you won't.

See how that works?

Maybe you don't see how it works, so I'll explain it once again.

You're a coward, and you this "I don't feel like answering questions about statements I've made in this thread" as an easy way out because you are unable to artuculate your beliefs.

If you weren't a coward, and you were faced with the fact that you are unable to say why you believe what you believe, you'd notice the discrepancy between your beliefs and your thoughts. Between your beliefs and the lack of any thoughts which support them.

But you are a coward, intellectually, so you shun that conflict.

Sorry the language had to be so harsh, but you deserve to understand the kind of man you grew up to be.

Thanks for reading and understanding.

#218 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-14 02:36 PM | Reply

Then it should be a piece of cake to link to those comments, or just reiterate them here.
But you can't, and you won't.

I am not going to hijack this thread in order to respond to your --------.

You are a ridiculous joke.

#219 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-06-14 04:05 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

You live a lie, and you spend most of your time here running from that fact.

#220 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-06-14 04:24 PM | Reply

I've actually supported these exercises. They accomplish absolutely nothing. Gives some soldiers from the USA chance to do some shopping and play cards. Cancelling them will save a billion or so. Korea is no place to have an exercise. It is wall to wall developed or mountains.

#221 | Posted by docnjo at 2018-06-14 05:33 PM | Reply

We have not stopped exercises and don't intend to unless Kim lives up to his end which no one knows the details of.

Details?

Kim is providing Trump with North Korea's best ocean front property.

In exchange, Trump destroys America. He's off to a great start.

#222 | Posted by ClownShack at 2018-06-14 06:00 PM | Reply

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