Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, May 13, 2018

I know many liberals, and two of them really are my best friends. Liberals make good movies and television shows. Their idealism has been an inspiration for me and many others. Many liberals are very smart. But they are not as smart, or as persuasive, as they think. And a backlash against liberals -- a backlash that most liberals don't seem to realize they're causing -- is going to get President Trump re-elected. People often vote against things instead of voting for them: against ideas, candidates and parties. Democrats, like Republicans, appreciate this whenever they portray their opponents as negatively as possible. But members of political tribes seem to have trouble recognizing that they, too, can push people away and energize them to vote for the other side. Nowhere is this more on display today than in liberal control of the commanding heights of American culture.

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Liberal success on media platforms come with a lot of power to express values, confer credibility and celebrity and start national conversations that others really can't ignore.

But this makes liberals feel more powerful than they are. Or, more accurately, this kind of power is double-edged. Liberals often don't realize how provocative or inflammatory they can be. In exercising their power, they regularly not only persuade and attract but also annoy and repel.

In fact, liberals may be more effective at causing resentment than in getting people to come their way.

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Liberals over think and over analyze everything, while conservatives openly and proudly embrace their ignorance.

In a choice between the two, I side with liberals.

Next ~

#1 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 10:46 AM | Reply

#2 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM

Sitting on one's ass and passively holding onto one's ignorance IS NOT a virtue ... that, is, my, point.

I stand by what I said.

#3 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 10:59 AM | Reply

"It doesn't help that our cultural mores are changing rapidly, and we rarely stop to consider this. Some liberals have gotten far out ahead of their fellow Americans but are nonetheless quick to criticize those who haven't caught up with them."

-fta

#4 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 11:04 AM | Reply

Whether the author is correct in building the argument, the conclusions are true.

We need to win over just a few Americans. Why are we constantly alienating?

#5 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 11:05 AM | Reply

Plus, liberals need to understand their faults and adjust ...

1. Russia doesn't poll well? Don't overthink the issue and just call Trump a traitor who loves Putin and is indebted to Russian Oligarchs.
2. Gun Control? Continually call Mitch McConnell and Republicans accessories to murder for not allowing gun control.
3. Wealth inequality? Constantly remind Trump voters that Trump conned them while fighting for those bread and butter issues that Americans support.

Just three things off the top of my head.

#6 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 11:06 AM | Reply

Articles like this are incredibly tiresome. Liberals are reacting to the stupidity, incompetence and borderline fascism of Trump and his supporters in and out of government. Contempt is the proper response, not civility.

Trump and the people who enable him are openly hostile to the values of this country. I'm not going to be polite in response to that. I'm not going to meet the other side halfway.

Dumb Donald Despot and anyone who still supports him after 17 months of his nightmare presidency can go to hell.

#7 | Posted by rcade at 2018-05-13 11:10 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 12

"It's one thing to police your own language and a very different one to police other people's. The former can set an example. The latter is domineering."

-fta

#8 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 11:11 AM | Reply

Some statesmanship is needed to heal the wounds Trump caused.

#9 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 11:15 AM | Reply

This article isn't supporting Trump. It's pointing out the path to defeating Trump is partly fighting Trump and partly inviting others to join.

#10 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 11:18 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"stupidity, incompetence and borderline fascism of Trump and his supporters"

They're framing the current Liberal movement in the same light.

#12 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 11:27 AM | Reply

#11 | POSTED BY SAWDUST

Trump openly lies all the time while liberals spend all their energy knocking them down.

Where's your responsibility for admitting that Trump lies all the time?

#13 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 11:35 AM | Reply

Some statesmanship is needed to heal the wounds Trump caused.

You can't heal a wound that is still taking damage. Until Trump is out of office there is no healing possible.

#14 | Posted by rcade at 2018-05-13 11:38 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

Bruce ... here's a perfect summation from the comment's section that counters the op-ed's premise ...

Here is the divide. Pretty much no-one on the left votes out of spite. A tremendous number on the right do so.

And I hate to tell you, if you are voting just to spite others, then yes, I actually _am_ smarter than you are.

But point taken, perhaps I am not politically savvy enough. The politics of bitterness and envy do appear to be quite effective. Many tyrants in human history have used those weapons very effectively. For a time at least.


QFT

#15 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 11:45 AM | Reply

This article and another I will post by David Brooks lay out the GOP strategy. They will say two things: (1) liberals think they know everything (2) we need our own grimy dirt bag to fight the world's grimy dirt bags.

I think this is their best shot to win.

I am not sure we are making the right moves to counter such a GOP strategy.

#16 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 11:47 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#15 isn't that supporting the article's premise? That the GOP strategy of stoking bitterness and envy will work again?

I will add they are also using fear, power, money

#17 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 11:49 AM | Reply

When you're smarter than someone, the last thing you want to do is let that person feel like you feel superior to them.

#18 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 11:52 AM | Reply

This article and another I will post by David Brooks lay out the GOP strategy. They will say two things: (1) liberals think they know everything (2) we need our own grimy dirt bag to fight the world's grimy dirt bags.

David Books is wrong.

We need our Allies to help fight the world's grimy dirt bags.

Thinking we can fix everything by ourselves on the world stage got us into this predicament in the first place.

And Republicans falling into line behind the obviously incompetent and out-of-control Trump is a big part of the problem.

#19 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 11:56 AM | Reply

Agree. But how to convince them so?

#20 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 12:00 PM | Reply

When you're smarter than someone, the last thing you want to do is let that person feel like you feel superior to them.

#18 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

Explaining to be people that democratic institutional values still matter ... the very things that are under assault by Trump and his enablers ... doesn't qualify as being superior.

For example, I think the media gave Bernie Sanders the short end of the stick in 2016 with the general narrative that Bernie's ideas were unrealistic (but they are realistic) ... but most importantly I would never support assaulting the media as Trump and his lackeys have done, which is unraveling one of the key pillars of any democratic society.

#21 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 12:09 PM | Reply

They are running the 2016 campaign again. This time they have their strongman/weakman

#22 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 12:11 PM | Reply

Agree. But how to convince them so?

#20 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

Ex-Republican operative, Mike Lofgren, explained that when it comes to policy, Republicans mostly generate their ideas and approach from marketing and advertising POV, while Democrats mostly generate their policy and approach from academia.

Remember the Obama's American Recovery and Reinvestment Act? Why not just call it a jobs program. Same with the Affordable Care Act -- just call it Healthcare Reform.

Republicans don't suffer from the above wordiness, which is why Dems often lose the high ground in any debate.

So how to convince people that Trump and the Republicans who enable Trump are terrible? Keep it simple.

It's good that policies come from smart people in academia, but most of America still doesn't have a college education. So it's important to explain these things to people in direct ways instead of getting lost on all the details.

#23 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 12:28 PM | Reply

I agree with simple. I thought Bernie overdid simple.

#24 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 12:33 PM | Reply

When you're smarter than someone, the last thing you want to do is let that person feel like you feel superior to them.

I don't know what you expect smarter people to do. If you recognize yourself as smarter than someone else, that's already a form of perceived superiority no matter how you treat them.

In the 21st century, if you belong to a group that values a college education and science, you are going to feel intellectually superior to people who don't. It's not liberals' fault that Trumpers are becoming know-nothings about these things and it makes them look like a bunch of fools.

There are conservatives who do value a college education and science. I have encountered smart people on the right many times. But generally they aren't reactionary dopes who buy into a bunch of stupid stuff for political advantage.

#25 | Posted by rcade at 2018-05-13 12:52 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

It's good that policies come from smart people in academia, but most of America still doesn't have a college education.

This is changing. 34% of Americans 65 and over have at least an associate's degree. 46% of Americans under 45 do. We are moving towards having a majority of college graduates.

census.gov

#26 | Posted by rcade at 2018-05-13 12:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I don't know what you expect smarter people to do."

Obama and B.Clinton are Ph.Ds in communicating with the average person.

I would say most successful politicians are very smart in one way or another. Some find a way to communicate with a broad swath of their electorate.

#27 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 12:59 PM | Reply

Obama and B.Clinton are Ph.Ds in communicating with the average person.

And yet the average Trump voter would say that Obama condescended to them. Even some outside the Trump bubble believe it -- JeffJ makes that claim about Obama all the time.

People who feel cultural resentment against the "elites" are going to think this no matter how we talk to them. Fox News and demagogues on the right are going to stoke their inferiority complex forever because it works for them politically. One of the simplest ways to keep someone in your corner is to keep telling them, "They think they are better than you."

#28 | Posted by rcade at 2018-05-13 01:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"Liberals are reacting to the stupidity, incompetence and borderline fascism of Trump and his supporters in and out of government. Contempt is the proper response, not civility."

They got mad because some comedian says Sarah Sanders does her makeup real good.
They're dangerous people, but I don't think they realize why.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-13 01:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I agree with simple. I thought Bernie overdid simple.
#24 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER"

Trump overdid it more. Worked great for him.

#30 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-13 01:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#30 I noticed the similarity in tactics.

#31 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 01:19 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Avenatti has the right approach. Be tough, in your face, dismissive of BS and fight back loudly and proudly and quickly.

Dems have FAR TOO OFTEN let the repubs get away with BS-Supreme Court Repub BS shouldn't be discussed in multiple news cycles. Respond quickly and loudly.

Look at a few examples by comparison.

In 2004 the Swift Boat Liars lied about Kerry's war record. Kerry took the high road. The lie gained traction. Kerry loses election partially based on being perceived as weak and a war dodger-compared to a real draft dodger.

Compare that to

The right attacking Avenatti on the source of his funding. He immediately responded (and in fact preempted the attack) with facts. So republican attacks became some short term noise.

Many low information voters only want a tough guy.

#32 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-05-13 01:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Some statesmanship is needed to heal the wounds Trump caused.
#9 | Posted by BruceBanner

You're not going to be a statesmen if you can't get elected

#33 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-05-13 01:24 PM | Reply

"And yet the average Trump voter would say that Obama condescended to them. Even some outside the Trump bubble believes it -- JeffJ makes that claim about Obama all the time."

Three things about this.

First, some people who voted for Trump, also voted for Obama. This makes me think he was successful despite being as elite as they come.

Second, the person speaking also matters. There are some people who will only listen if they are hearing from a person who looks and sounds like themselves.

Last, conservatives resort to conspiracy against left leaning candidates. This means they're not even considering reality. We have to build and execute a strategy which meets them on their home territory of imagination. Obama's hope and change worked in that way.

#34 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 01:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#30 I noticed the similarity in tactics.

#31 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

It's called "populism".

But always remember why Congress doesn't act on things that majority of Americans agree on -- i.e. gun control, raising the minimum wage, raising taxes on the rich.

Trump lies out his ass while Bernie tells the truth.

#35 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 01:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

They got mad because some comedian says Sarah Sanders does her makeup real good.
They're dangerous people, but I don't think they realize why.
#29 | Posted by snoofy

They were told to be angry by Fox, there is a difference.

#36 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-05-13 01:29 PM | Reply

This whole discussion is why Hillary's campaign was not as in your face as Sanders' was far as policy pronouncements go. It was stealthy progressivism that the far left didn't trust. But if you want to get some drunk to go home safely from a bar, it's better to talk to him as a friend rather than to go after him about what a drunk he is.

Hillary Clinton's Quite Revolution

www.vox.com

Bubba and Obama won elections and re-elections because they were not so in your face about their long term progressive goals, and they seemed more moderate than they really were so as not to offend people who needed to be pulled along gently, not busted in the nose and dragged along.

#37 | Posted by Corky at 2018-05-13 01:30 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

What I mean is that some people would rather win the political argument than win the election... where they can actually affect the the policies.

#38 | Posted by Corky at 2018-05-13 01:34 PM | Reply

Pinch,

"Liberals over think and over analyze everything"

Yea...and they're coming down on the wrong side of some important issues.

"Overthinking" sounds like a backdoor compliment.

The problem is they are just plain getting some things wrong.

#39 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-13 01:49 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The problem is when people try to always make their solutions mesh with their political views.

Can you tell me liberals think everything Trump has done is wrong?

They don't agree with anything he's done or any decision he's made?

The same with conservatives.

Any conservative who says everything liberals do is wrong is a partisan hack.

Right now one of the biggest obstacles to problem solving in our government or even society is this inability to admit your side has made mistakes/oversights and to just say sometimes the other guy is right.

Right now liberals are blowing it when it comes to immigration reform.

#40 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-13 01:55 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

Right now liberals are blowing it when it comes to immigration reform.

The hatred and demonization of undocumented immigrants is not something we're willing to consider, unlike Trump and far too many of his supporters who are only here because of this country's liberal immigration policies.

#41 | Posted by rcade at 2018-05-13 02:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Right now liberals are blowing it when it comes to immigration reform."

Is that what you call The Wall, immigration reform?
Marco Rubio had a sensible plan for immigration reform, the GOP crucified him for it. Remember?

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-13 02:09 PM | Reply

"Overthinking" sounds like a backdoor compliment.

The problem is they are just plain getting some things wrong.

#39 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

I understand that saying liberals overthink things can be interpreted by liberals as a left-handed compliment ... but how many times do I have to rip Republicans for anyone to understand that I don't support them?

Conservatives exploit fear and ignorance and now they control all three branches of government along with most state governor houses and state legislatures ... and while we're by far the richest country in the world we still argue over food stamps and who pays for healthcare, so liberals do have the right arguments which is why I support liberals.

It's not like I'm just mindlessly rooting for a team, I stand for certain things ... fairness, shared prosperity and shared sacrifice, and just plain old fashioned representative government -- everything that Republicans DON'T stand for and the very things that Trump is destroying.

#44 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 02:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

We know liberals hate us and act accordingly. MAGA.

No. You believe it because that's what you're told to believe.

Stop listening to rightwing talk show hosts who are the true hate mongerers and go talk to actual people.

#45 | Posted by jpw at 2018-05-13 02:24 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 4

#43 | POSTED BY VISITOR

Like giving trillions of free tax payer dollars to corporations already making record profits while lying to desperate people who are
economically struggling for the sake of their votes?

Not hard.

If you feel better about yourself because you're rooting for your team that wins, then you're just lying to yourself -- pretty pathetic.

By the way, are you a Quisling for the 1%?

#46 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 02:24 PM | Reply

Pinch,

If you believe Democrats actually represent "fairness, shared prosperity and shared sacrifice, and just plain old fashioned representative government", you're just not awake.

#47 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-13 02:25 PM | Reply

"Continue to over estimate your intelligence..."

Overestimate is one word.

#48 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-13 02:29 PM | Reply | Funny: 4

"Continue to over estimate your intelligence and lose."

I believe the phrase you're looking for is this one, Visitor:
"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." --HL Mencken

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-13 02:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"If you believe Democrats actually represent..."

They're closer to all that stuff than Republicans are.
If you can't see that it's because you're so focused on being bitter over something else; in your case it's gays gaining acceptance thanks to Democrats.

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-13 02:34 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Right now liberals are blowing it when it comes to immigration reform.

#40 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

The House wants to bring DACA to a vote, but ball-less Paul Ryan won't allow it ...

www.politico.com

So what's going on?

Centrist Republicans don't agree with the radical right-wing "FreeDumb Caucus" who are in the minority and who are ones responsible for holding it up. Remember gerrymandering -- if Republicans vote for something not right-wing enough they'll be primary'd in their gerrymandered districts by GOP donors.

So it looks like sane people led by liberals, and a few sane GOP centrists who agree with liberals, are on the correct side of the argument.

#52 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 02:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If you believe Democrats actually represent "fairness, shared prosperity and shared sacrifice, and just plain old fashioned representative government", you're just not awake.

#47 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

If you think Republicans represent the ideals I mentioned, then you're lying to yourself.

#53 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 02:41 PM | Reply

Here's an example of where Liberals weren't so smart, when LGBT United ran a picture of a man in a dress with this text on Facebook:

NOT EVERY BOY WANTS TO BE A SOLDIER. A beautiful message was seen on the streets of the capitol,. with no group name or credits attached to the project.
It was the poster at top, of the bearded man in a pink gown behaving like a queen and holding a sign saying "Not every boy wants to be a soldier". A timely message for today.
The two recent U.S. wars were costly for our nation; to put it lightly. They led to domestic devastation of country. No matter what Defense Secretary or POTUS are saying they don't fool me with promises of gay military equality as key to the nation's agenda. Better talk to me about cutting DoD's budget. FOLKS.

Oh, wait, turns out that was actually fake news paid for by Russians.

#54 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-13 03:12 PM | Reply

If you believe Democrats actually represent "fairness, shared prosperity and shared sacrifice, and just plain old fashioned representative government", you're just not awake.

Democrats do far more for common people in office than Republicans. Trump's entire presidency is a gift to fat cats like himself while he treats working class voters like suckers. If you think otherwise you're another one of his marks.

#55 | Posted by rcade at 2018-05-13 03:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

It was probably short-sighted for Liberals to post this too:

A small group of activists burned two confederate flags in response to shooting in Charleston, South Carolina.

Why the symbol of the pro-slavery rebellion is still flying on the ground of South Carolina? Why the symbol of white supremacy is still flying on the South Carolina statehouse in Columbia? Why the flag that represents the murder of blacks was not removed from the national statehouse?
The confederate flag represents terrorism, reminding us about the slavery time, racism and people that were murdered in a hate-crime. Today, we ask to remove this symbol of racism that flies 120 miles away from the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston.
Yes, we must wipe off every single symbol of racism from the United States of America including the confederate flag, KKK and other racist organizations. We must give new names to the streets which were named after racist political figures and slave traders. We must remove monuments dedicated to Andrew Jackson, Robert Lee, Benjamin Huger, James Longstreet who owned slaves on their farms.
How can we ever expect to get the racist symbols removed until we show ourselves to be men the same as any other race of men?

Whoops, it has come to my attention that was actually posted by Russians. My bad!

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-13 03:19 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Right now liberals are blowing it when it comes to immigration reform."

Yeah! Let me sum up BillJohnson's views on immigration:

Ad ID 556
Ad Text Why do immigrants think that the U.S. government should create good conditions for them? I think immigrants should prove that they are deserved to stay in the United States. Why should we give a citizenship to those who cannot give something good for the nation? The worst thing is that illegal immigrants who broke the law to live in the United States demand ask for indulgences. What nonsense! Illegals should be deported from the country invariably. But Obama's administration is tied to the chariot of immigrants. Democrats know that immigrants will vote for the Democratic party. Especially former illegals. That's why Barack Obama tries to give the Immigration Amnesty to illegals as soon as possible. It will allow to increase a number of votes for a Democratic Party presidential candidate in 2016. And democrats don't care about the fact that most of immigrants will become welfare recipients, increasing unemployment rate. America doesn't need immigrants, democrats do. What's more important: to win Presidential elections in 2016 or to make America better? Democrats seem to choose first option. That's what differs republicans from democrats.
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#57 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-13 03:28 PM | Reply

The thing about liberals is that they have thin skins and large egos. More often than not, their inflated ego is undeserved, as is their belief in their supperior intelligence. However,I would never say that because it would hurt their feelings.

#58 | Posted by visitor_ at 2018-05-13 03:48 PM | Reply

The thing about liberals is that they have thin skins and large egos. More often than not, their inflated ego is undeserved, as is their belief in their supperior intelligence.

What is it with Conservatives and projection?

#59 | Posted by jpw at 2018-05-13 03:50 PM | Reply

"he thing about liberals is that they have thin skins and large egos."

You just described Trump.

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-13 03:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#60 Make that: "thin orange skin and a large ego" and you have a winner.

#61 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-05-13 03:53 PM | Reply

#58 | POSTED BY VISITOR

It take less energy to be passively ignorant, and more energy to actively seek the truth.

#62 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 03:59 PM | Reply

- their supperior intelligence

The Self-Retorting Post Lives!

#63 | Posted by Corky at 2018-05-13 04:43 PM | Reply

Democrats do far more for common people in office than Republicans.

Trump's entire presidency is a gift to fat cats like himself while he treats working class voters like suckers.

Exactly

#64 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 08:49 PM | Reply

Pinch,

"If you think Republicans represent the ideals I mentioned, then you're lying to yourself."

No...I don't believe that either.

I believe we're on the verge of a log jam with no system in place to deal with it.

Too many people with one-track narrow minded views how things should function.

I mean...it's not as if people on the left or right are necessarily wrong. They both are correct for the problems they care about.

But...there isn't enough resources to implement everything everybody wants.

And the hoarding of wealth isn't helping one bit.

#65 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-13 08:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"the hoarding of wealth isn't helping one bit."

Do you blame one party more for that phenomenon?

#66 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-13 08:57 PM | Reply

Dan,

"Do you blame one party more for that phenomenon?"

hmmm....interesting question.

No...I don't blame any political party.

It's something that grew more out of a social movement than politics.

Mankind became shameless.

#67 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-13 09:10 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

It's something that grew more out of a social movement than politics.

Mankind became shameless.

#67 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

No, corporate greed became shameless ...

Who Stole The American Dream?
youtu.be

... starting in the early to mid 1970s with the Powell Memo.

#68 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-05-13 09:18 PM | Reply

Pinch,

"No, corporate greed became shameless"

It's all interconnected.

We're all part of the same system that created a shameless society.

What you said is only aspect.

#69 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-13 09:24 PM | Reply

"No...I don't blame any political party."

Take some math classes and get back to us.

#70 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-13 09:28 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Pinch,

"No, corporate greed became shameless"

Greed and a lust for money isn't something restricted to the rich.

Naturally the hoarding of wealth would only apply to the people who are hoarding wealth.

But you asked which party I think is responsible for the hoarding of wealth.

And I answered neither party because it is all part of a social change that is reflected in our politics and not the other way around.

Something happened in the 80's.

The increased shamelessness of the rich paralleled a major shift in cultural values.

Maybe it was when Gordon Gekko told us "Greed is Good" and we all played along and let it happen.

#71 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-13 10:42 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I should have put Dan's name on the post...not Pinch.

#72 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-13 10:44 PM | Reply

"you asked which party I think is responsible for the hoarding of wealth. And I answered neither party "

And I suggested you learn a lot more about math.

"The increased shamelessness of the rich paralleled a major shift in cultural values."

Meanwhile, Republicans wrote three tax codes, each successive one funneling even more wealth toward the top.

#73 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-13 11:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Dan,

I think I'm looking back at the beginning in the 80's more than present times.

How it all got started. We wouldn't be here today without someone setting the stage.

I don't doubt everything you're saying.

I voted for Reagan and stopped voting republican until Trump.

For me I simply did not want Hillary being able to nominate supreme court justices.

There's a lot of cards being played on the table and for me pandering to the rich was less of an priority.

#74 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-13 11:38 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"I think I'm looking back at the beginning in the 80'"

And I'm looking at the equation from the time Clinton handed off true surplus budgets to George W. Bush, and he, Cheney, and the Republicans reset our fiscal sights from surplus budgets to permanent deficits.

#75 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 12:02 AM | Reply

"For me I simply did not want Hillary being able to nominate supreme court justices."

And wanted Trump?

"for me pandering to the rich was less of an priority."

It's not "pandering to the rich", it's giving away the store. We just set a course to borrow an additional 10% of all the debt we've amassed since 1776, and all to give it away to corporations, foreign investors, and to a lesser degree, American middle class workers, who are borrowing about $11,000 per income tax payer.

#76 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 12:06 AM | Reply

" I simply did not want Hillary being able to nominate supreme court justices."

What on earth scared you so much you'd want today's so-called Republicans to nominate instead?

#77 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 12:08 AM | Reply

Dan,

Ok...I'll change my answer.

Your question,

"Do you blame one party more for that phenomenon?"

Yes...I would have to say republicans.

But...I still don't think they would have been able to pull it off without the cultural changes of the times.

#78 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-14 12:10 AM | Reply

What scared you so much to want the opposite?

#79 | Posted by Crassus at 2018-05-14 12:13 AM | Reply

"the cultural changes of the times."

I think you've got it backward. Money funneling upward was reflected in the cultural changes.

"Yes...I would have to say republicans."

Math would have to say Republicans as well.

#80 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 12:14 AM | Reply

It must be political math, cause it comes from both parties.

#81 | Posted by Crassus at 2018-05-14 12:16 AM | Reply

"What scared you so much to want the opposite?"

Roughly a decade before--in 2006--the majority of so-called Republicans voted to permanently codify gays as second-class citizens via a Constitutional Amendment. That was enough for me, combined with the Rs purposeful choice to reset the nation's fiscal sights.

#82 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 12:20 AM | Reply

"It must be political math"

Well, it's certainly not Republican Math™. It's based on the actual equation.

#83 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 12:22 AM | Reply

Yes, it is liberal math, all slanted with no facts.

#84 | Posted by Crassus at 2018-05-14 12:23 AM | Reply

"it is liberal math, all slanted with no facts."

You don't have to fully understand the macro equation to look at the economy Dubya was handed, and the economy Dubya handed off, and draw a sensible conclusion. Or the economy Obama inherited vs the one he handed off. If you don't understand at least that much about the math, STFU about math.

#85 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 12:30 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Not sure Crassus has passed a Turing Test yet.

#86 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 01:11 AM | Reply

Yep, I see I should just trust your opinion and mental prowess....LOL!

I just want you to make the numbers bare out cause from my knowledge of looking at the actual numbers what you are saying just isn't honest.

#87 | Posted by Crassus at 2018-05-14 01:17 AM | Reply

Yep Snoofy, we see you have failed it.

#88 | Posted by Crassus at 2018-05-14 01:18 AM | Reply

"I just want you to make the numbers bare out"

Clinton handed Dubya true surplus budgets. Dubya reset the fiscal sights from Surplusville to Debtsylvania, rang up the largest deficits known to man to that point, and handed Obama an economy on fire. What is it about math you don't understand, that you need to conclude Republicans were somehow a success?

"from my knowledge of looking at the actual numbers"

WTF?!? What are "your actual numbers"? What was the annual deficit when Dubya got the economy from Clinton, and what was the annual deficit when Dubya handed the economy off to Obama?

#89 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 01:33 AM | Reply

www.truthfulpolitics.com

I don't know about you but here is a chart that's pretty simple to read about debt.

#90 | Posted by Crassus at 2018-05-14 04:24 AM | Reply

Time and time again, anyone reading the mainstream news or reading articles on the Internet will read the claim that President Clinton not only balanced the budget, but had a surplus. This is then used as an argument to further highlight the fiscal irresponsibility of the federal government under the Bush administration.

The claim is generally made that Clinton had a surplus of $69 billion in FY1998, $123 billion in FY1999 and $230 billion in FY2000 . In that same link, Clinton claimed that the national debt had been reduced by $360 billion in the last three years, presumably FY1998, FY1999, and FY2000--though, interestingly, $360 billion is not the sum of the alleged surpluses of the three years in question ($69B + $123B + $230B = $422B, not $360B).

While not defending the increase of the federal debt under President Bush, it's curious to see Clinton's record promoted as having generated a surplus. It never happened. There was never a surplus and the facts support that position. In fact, far from a $360 billion reduction in the national debt in FY1998-FY2000, there was an increase of $281 billion.

Verifying this is as simple as accessing the U.S. Treasury (see note about this link below) website where the national debt is updated daily and a history of the debt since January 1993 can be obtained. Considering the government's fiscal year ends on the last day of September each year, and considering Clinton's budget proposal in 1993 took effect in October 1993 and concluded September 1994 (FY1994), here's the national debt at the end of each year of Clinton Budgets: www.craigsteiner.us

As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the deficit was almost eliminated in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive surplus number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration.


I wonder what you think about the actual numbers now.

#91 | Posted by Crassus at 2018-05-14 04:41 AM | Reply

"Oh, wait, turns out that was actually fake news paid for by Russians.

But yet it's almost indistinguishable views expressed by many so-called liberals in the U.S. and other liberals of late have refused to distance themselves from.

#92 | Posted by sentinel at 2018-05-14 09:53 AM | Reply

"First, some people who voted for Trump, also voted for Obama. This makes me think he was successful despite being as elite as they come."

This bears repeating. The majority of Trump voters would probably never vote Democrat, but there were clearly enough who would have to affect the outcome of the election. For all the talk about how close the election was, Democrats don't seem interested in getting those voters back any time soon, nor the ones who previously voted for Obama and voted third party. Robert Reich was continuing to insult the latter as recently as last Friday on Bill Maher's show.

#93 | Posted by sentinel at 2018-05-14 10:01 AM | Reply

"here is a chart that's pretty simple to read about debt."
"far from a $360 billion reduction in the national debt in FY1998-FY2000, there was an increase of $281 billion."

Great, just great. So you don't know the difference between the deficit and the debt. And you don't know these "different" conclusions are based on different methods of accounting, so your "conclusion" is merely an admission of cluelessness.

"I wonder what you think about the actual numbers now."

The same thing I knew about them before you googled your needed conclusion.

I'll repeat: STFU about the math. You clearly don't know the first thing about the links you're proffering, or what they mean.

#94 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 10:37 AM | Reply

Obama and B.Clinton are Ph.Ds in communicating with the average person. - #27 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-05-13 12:59 PM
Obama's speech writer was, at least. Obama is an excellent orator. When he wasn't on script, he was not an adept communicator.
B. Clinton seemed to be able to talk with anyone about anything. He was the prototypical charismatic politician.

#95 | Posted by Avigdore at 2018-05-14 11:33 AM | Reply

The hatred and demonization of undocumented immigrants is not something we're willing to consider, unlike Trump and far too many of his supporters who are only here because of this country's liberal immigration policies. - #41 | Posted by rcade at 2018-05-13 02:06 PM

I think you may have misspelled 'Enforcement of non-partisan laws'.

#96 | Posted by Avigdore at 2018-05-14 11:39 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

We know liberals hate us and act accordingly. MAGA.
No. You believe it because that's what you're told to believe.
Stop listening to rightwing talk show hosts who are the true hate mongerers and go talk to actual people.
#45 | Posted by jpw at 2018-05-13 02:24 PM

You really need to read the things that are written here. Conservatives and Republicans alike do read this stuff, and we're pretty sure that most of you are 'actual people'. Not only are you mistaken, the very words on this page say so.
Just in this ONE page:
conservatives openly and proudly embrace their ignorance...
So how to convince people that Trump and the Republicans who enable Trump are terrible (go ahead and ask around if all Republicans enable Trump)...
how many times do I have to rip Republicans...

If I expended my search beyond this single page, it would be significantly worse.
You are blind if you don't see that.

#97 | Posted by Avigdore at 2018-05-14 11:50 AM | Reply

#97 reality is a bitch.

#98 | Posted by jpw at 2018-05-14 11:59 AM | Reply

"Just in this ONE page:
conservatives openly and proudly embrace their ignorance..."

For example, when they deny global warming.
You can see that, right?

#99 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 12:02 PM | Reply

Or like Crassus here, pointing to bills that came due under Obama from spending done by Bush, and calling that Obama's debt, when the bulk of it simply is not Obama's doing.

You can see how that's proudly ignorant, right, Avigdore?

#100 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 12:05 PM | Reply

Great, just great. So you don't know the difference between the deficit and the debt. - #94 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 10:37 AM
Measuring the debt from 1 fiscal year minus the debt from the previous year to determine the deficit is certainly a valid method, and it does show an adequate understanding of both concepts. You've seen that he derived one using the other, and assumed that he conflated them? He didn't, and yet here you are attacking him for it. You may want to take a moment to reread his posting, especially if you're going to proclaim his ignorance.

#101 | Posted by Avigdore at 2018-05-14 12:14 PM | Reply

I know smart liberals.....around here I am usually referred to AS the smart liberal. Believe me.

Often times, how smart you are depends on where you are.

Some folks are only smart when they are online posting anonymously.........anywhere else, they are dumber than a rock.

#102 | Posted by eberly at 2018-05-14 12:18 PM | Reply

For example, when they deny global warming. You can see that, right? - #99 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 12:02 PM

I can see that if I falsely assume every conservative denies global warming. Is that why do it, Snoofy?
Unfortunately, we all are often guilty of lumping groups together because it is easy.

If you think Crassus, the person, is ignorant over a particular statement, then judge Crassus the person (preferably with some cited refutations), and don't be prejudiced against an entire group of people.

#103 | Posted by Avigdore at 2018-05-14 12:20 PM | Reply

#97 reality is a bitch. - #98 | Posted by jpw at 2018-05-14 11:59 AM
That reality that you were wrong? Ok. I'm glad to hear that you've come to my way of thinking. I'm sure it will serve you well in the future.

#104 | Posted by Avigdore at 2018-05-14 12:21 PM | Reply

"I can see that if I falsely assume every conservative denies global warming."

Setting aside the fact that you'd be hard pressed to find a Trump supporter that doesn't deny global warming, nobody said every conservative that's ever walked the face of this earth denies it.

Just that conservatives proudly embrace their ignorance, and global warming is an apt example of that phenomenon in action.

By trying to recast the comment to every single conservative always proudly displays their ignorance 100% of the time on every topic, You're going to extremes to make your point, which is a think you're forced to do when your point doesn't make much sense otherwise.

You can see that, right?

#105 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 12:29 PM | Reply

"Measuring the debt from 1 fiscal year minus the debt from the previous year to determine the deficit is certainly a valid method"

Unless your goal is to determine who is responsible for that debt, then it is just a method of misleading or lying.

#106 | Posted by danni at 2018-05-14 12:29 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"I know smart liberals.....around here I am usually referred to AS the smart liberal. Believe me."

I'm okay with this being an example of conservative ignorance.
But are you, Eberly?

#107 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 12:29 PM | Reply

"You've seen that he derived one using the other, and assumed that he conflated them?"

We were talking about deficits, and he linked to GAAP accounting on the debt. No assumption was needed.

"Measuring the debt from 1 fiscal year minus the debt from the previous year to determine the deficit is certainly a valid method"

True, but a) we were discussing deficits, and b) if that's the case, one would have to admit Dubya's "deficit" was much, MUCH worse than reported, since you'd have to add the difference between Congressional accounting and GAAP. I'm fine with either consistent method, but changing the discourse from deficit to debt is moving the goalposts.

And regardless the accounting procedure, the central tenet of my argument--the difference between the economy Clinton handed off and the one Dubya handed off--is remarkably stark, as is the difference between the economy Obama inherited vs the one he handed off. One doesn't need a full understanding of the math beneath the equation to come to obvious conclusions about which party seems to handle the economy better.

#108 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 12:31 PM | Reply

"I'm okay with this being an example of conservative ignorance."

how so?

#109 | Posted by eberly at 2018-05-14 12:33 PM | Reply

Eberly, are you a liberal?

#110 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 12:35 PM | Reply

on many issues, yes. but the fact that I'm liberal on virtually any issue gets me labeled as a liberal around here.

It's a relative things....relatively I'm a liberal.

I consider myself moderate....but most around here consider me a very liberal person. (because to them...I AM very liberal)

#111 | Posted by eberly at 2018-05-14 12:38 PM | Reply

"(because to them...I AM very liberal)"

You're not wrong, but... LOL. You sound like MadBomber. "To the rest of the world, homeless Americans with mental health issues and no phone and no PO Box are the 1%"

#112 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 12:42 PM | Reply

You can see that, right? -#105 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 12:29 PM
Oh, I see what you're trying to get at. As long as at least 1 meets the criteria then the statement is true. Democrats are racists. Conservatives are ignorant. Republicans become Democrats become Republicans. That is sure to bring a lot of useful and intelligent discussion to the table. /s

#113 | Posted by Avigdore at 2018-05-14 12:45 PM | Reply

#108 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-14 12:31 PM
I still don't believe that he shifted the discussion to the debt except as a measuring stick to determine the deficit.
Your larger point about the budget going from Better to WORSE stands.

#114 | Posted by Avigdore at 2018-05-14 12:53 PM | Reply

/s
#113 | POSTED BY AVIGDORE

You leave that /s off entirely too many of your posts.

#115 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 01:16 PM | Reply

/s
#113 | POSTED BY AVIGDORE

Oh so you do see it.

#116 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 01:19 PM | Reply

When he wasn't on script, he was not an adept communicator.
B. Clinton seemed to be able to talk with anyone about anything. He was the prototypical charismatic politician.

#95 | Posted by Avigdore

Not true at all. Obama speaks very clearly and is very articulate off script.

I had no problem understanding him at all.

I even heard some say he was very well spoken ... for a black man.

#117 | Posted by donnerboy at 2018-05-14 01:23 PM | Reply

#104 of course we're talking in generalities, in which case my point stands.

And generalities exist because they, in general, describe the majority.

That you're suddenly playing the "not everyone" card is only because you don't like what the genaeralities say about the right and in that regard I agree whole heartedly with you.

#118 | Posted by jpw at 2018-05-14 01:31 PM | Reply

Not true at all. Obama speaks very clearly and is very articulate off script.

#117 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY

Off-script he's hit and miss. It depends on the nature of the question. If the question is probing and challenging and is directed at a perceived failure in policy or action, Obama tends to stammer a lot, talk about all sorts of unrelated stuff and is generally meandering and incoherent. His response to softball questions is far better.

#119 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-05-14 01:41 PM | Reply

#119 so he's a politician?

#120 | Posted by jpw at 2018-05-14 01:43 PM | Reply

#119 so he's a politician?

#120 | POSTED BY JPW

Perhaps. I just remember a few years ago Senator Carl Levin (D) taking some tough questions from a local radio show host and providing honest, straightforward answers.

#121 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-05-14 01:58 PM | Reply

#104 of course we're talking in generalities, in which case my point stands.
And generalities exist because they, in general, describe the majority.

#118 | Posted by jpw at 2018-05-14 01:31 PM
The problem is that you are still taking your biased pre-conception of conservatives or Republicans as the evidence of a description of the majority. The majority of conservatives and Republicans are no more immoral, ignorant, racist, or any of the rest than a majority of liberals and Democrats. Your own bias as the proof of the majority of any group being a certain way is merely prejudice.

Even accepting of generalities, your point, which was that liberals don't hate conservatives and it was only a right-wing talk show host misinformation campaign is still disproven by the very words on this page. Maybe now that you have been called to witness it, you will open your eyes to the evidence before you.

#122 | Posted by Avigdore at 2018-05-14 02:05 PM | Reply

Perhaps. I just remember a few years ago Senator Carl Levin (D) taking some tough questions from a local radio show host and providing honest, straightforward answers.

One anecdote means nothing. Obama has been honest and straight forward many times. I have also seen him meander when the question does not have an easy answer. All that proves is that he is a politician. And obviously he was a pretty good one.

#123 | Posted by donnerboy at 2018-05-14 03:03 PM | Reply

#122 I'm taking their own words and actions, and would pare down your list to ignorant, anti-intellectual and fact adverse. As far as morality I wouldn't go so far as to label them immoral, just morally flexible such as to make their moralizing painfully hypocritical.

#124 | Posted by jpw at 2018-05-14 03:17 PM | Reply

I would also add that much of that description is political in that those traits are what the support in their politicians even if they don't personally practice them.

#125 | Posted by jpw at 2018-05-14 03:19 PM | Reply

"Even accepting of generalities, your point, which was that liberals don't hate conservatives and it was only a right-wing talk show host misinformation campaign is still disproven by the very words on this page"

Which words are those?
How do they prove liberals hate conservatives, generally?

#126 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-05-14 08:05 PM | Reply

Dan,

"Republican Math™"

Don't underestimate the impact of Jerry Falwell bringing the evangelical vote to Reagan away from Carter. That was also part of the cultural shift going on back then.

I was attending a conservative church during that period and I saw and heard for myself the attitude going around. The Prosperity Doctrine was in full swing. God wanted us to be rich.

I might assume you are including "trickle down theory" that was coined by David Stockman who was Reagan's budget director in your Republican Math™.

Interestingly Stockman later referred to TDT as a trojan horse.

The 80's were exciting times.

Even the hippies sold out.

#127 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-05-14 08:58 PM | Reply

#127
None of that has anything to do with the math. It was my contention then, and is now, that funneling money to the wealthiest via the tax code ends up funneling money to the wealthiest.

So far, history has borne me out.

#128 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-05-15 09:46 AM | Reply

Even the hippies sold out.

#127 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

Even hippies have to eat.

So they became the "Deep State".

#129 | Posted by donnerboy at 2018-05-15 10:14 AM | Reply

"The majority of conservatives and Republicans are no more immoral, ignorant, racist, or any of the rest than a majority of liberals and Democrats."

Quite simply, you are a liar. Or you're just stupid. I don't waste a lot of time arguing with people like you, there is simply no point in doing so.

#130 | Posted by danni at 2018-05-15 11:19 AM | Reply

I love watching folks engage in this argument.

"I'm better than you because I think my team is better than your team".

LOL

#131 | Posted by eberly at 2018-05-15 11:26 AM | Reply

I don't waste a lot of time arguing with people like you, there is simply no point in doing so. - #130 | Posted by Danni at 2018-05-15 11:19 AM
You're just tired of losing. Your inability to refute any point without resorting to dishonesty or name-calling is why you don't 'argue' with people like me.

#132 | Posted by Avigdore at 2018-05-15 12:29 PM | Reply

#130: Typical narcissistic behavior. Sound like my mother-in-law.

#133 | Posted by Daniel at 2018-05-15 02:33 PM | Reply

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