Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, April 15, 2018

When Antwan Wilson, who resigned as chancellor of the Washington, D.C., public schools in February, skirted the local school-lottery system in an ill-fated effort to get his daughter into a top D.C. high school instead of a "low performing" neighborhood school, he exposed a painful truth: Too many public high schools are failing, especially those serving low-income students of color. The chancellor lost his job, but the students in such schools are losing much more. These are the very students who, if they enroll in college, are most likely to drop out before completing degrees. If we really want to fix the college-completion problem, we need to fix high schools.

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Higher education is facing intense pressure to improve completion rates. College leaders got an earful on that topic at the recent American Council on Education annual meeting, where Nancy L. Zimpher, chancellor emerita of the State University of New York, recited the dismal statistics: a 59 percent six-year completion rate overall for baccalaureate students, 49 percent for Pell Grantees, and 39 percent for black students.

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It is not the schools, it is the families that need to change and emphasize education. More money for schools is useless as there is not enough time for instruction to offset horrible families.

#1 | Posted by Rex_Buyt at 2018-04-13 10:29 PM | Reply

"the families that need to change and emphasize education. More money for schools is useless"

So.
How about more money for families then?
I hear having money changes things.

#2 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-04-13 10:32 PM | Reply

How about more money for families then?
I hear having money changes things.

#2 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

----------------------

There is nothing that I want more for families than for them to have more money. They do this through work and earning it - not handouts. Handouts keep people poor as there is no incentive to improve. Giving someone a job gives them money, pride, a sense of purpose, and builds their resume for bigger and better things by teaching actual job skills. Conservatives hate poor people - which is why we want to make them middle class. Dems love poor people which is why they try to make more of them by making middle class people poor by swamping them with illegal immigrants and sending the few low-skilled manufacturing jobs left overseas.

#3 | Posted by Rex_Buyt at 2018-04-13 10:44 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Work 16 hour shifts and do more parenting. Got it. Thanks King Buyt.

#4 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-04-13 11:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Work 16 hour shifts and do more parenting. Got it. Thanks King Buyt.

#4 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

======================

I would wager the parents with the discipline to work 16 hours a day don't have the problem kids we are talking about. It is the parents working 10 hours a week in a permanent part-time mindset or those that refuse to work at all that also show laziness in raising their kids.

Second, don't do drugs, don't have a kid in high school, and don't go to jail and you will not need to work 16 hours a day for more than a few months. You act like our problem in DC or Detroit schools is that the parents are too busy working to raise their kids properly. That is laughable.

#5 | Posted by Rex_Buyt at 2018-04-13 11:36 PM | Reply

I would wager the parents with the discipline to work 16 hours a day don't have the problem kids we are talking about.

If you did, you'd have to pay up.

#6 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-04-14 12:02 AM | Reply

Want to fix High Schools?

Get rid of the teachers union insistence on tenure and go to merit only.

God forbid that we allow schools to fire incompetent teachers.

#7 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-04-14 12:10 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

If you did, you'd have to pay up.

#6 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

=====================

How many parents do you know are working 112 hour work weeks? If they are, they are making $50K/year even at minimum wage in a single family home and $100K if both parents stuck around so again, I don't think these are the people I need to worry about. You are like the person citing the rich lady driving a Mercedes to pick up foodstamps. Pretending this is the norm and the cause the problem is ridiculous.

#8 | Posted by Rex_Buyt at 2018-04-14 12:15 AM | Reply

#8 | POSTED BY REX_BUYT

You brought up "the norm."

I must have struck a nerve. Meh.

#9 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-04-14 03:02 AM | Reply

"Handouts keep people poor as there is no incentive to improve."

Does a person worth billions and billions get more incentive to improve when they get yet another billion?

#10 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-04-14 03:39 PM | Reply

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"God forbid that we allow schools to fire incompetent teachers."

Talk is cheap. What kind of metrics do you use to establish competence?

#11 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-04-14 03:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Want More College Students to Graduate? Fix High Schools

I agree.

But to fix high schools you need more money for education, and you can't do that but not voting for politicians like Bernie Sanders who want to raise taxes on people (millionaires and billionaires) who can afford their taxes raised in order to pay for better schools and better teachers.

Not hard.

#12 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-04-15 09:01 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Want to fix High Schools?

Get rid of the teachers union insistence on tenure and go to merit only.

God forbid that we allow schools to fire incompetent teachers.

#7 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER

Wrong

See post #12.

Blaming teachers unions is really lame -- no offense. And blaming any union is pretty stupid -- again, no offense.

There are ~ 12,000 corporate lobbyists in Washington D.C., as compared to ~ 400 union lobbyists -- guess who's winning?

All you have to do is follow the money in order to understand where the problems are -- not hard.

#13 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-04-15 09:06 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#12 | POSTED BY PINCHALOAF AT 2018-04-15 09:01 AM | FLAG: We have been throwing money at the problem as everyone knows that is the answer - right? Do you think that if we double the amount we will see improvement, and if so, why? We are one of the top countries in education spending [only four spend more hat us], and if money was the answer then we would rank fourth. UNFORTUNATELY:

The U.S. ranks 14th in education
6 January 2015Mark1 comment
According to Pearson, the United States has a "cognitive skills and educational attainment" score of 0.39, which makes the United States rank fourteenth out of forty countries ranked in that category. The top ten countries (and their scores) are:

South Korea (1.30)
Japan (1.03)
Singapore (0.99)
Hong Kong (0.96)
Finland (0.92)
United Kingdom (0.67)
Canada (0.60)
Netherlands (0.58)
Ireland (0.51)
Poland (0.50)

rankingamerica.wordpress.com hechingerreport.org
U.S. now ranks near the bottom among 35 industrialized nations in math

Apparently just throwing money at the problem is not the answer.

#14 | Posted by MSgt at 2018-04-15 09:54 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

I love it when someone throws out numbers like the ones in #14.

Find me something that resembles this at a high school in one of those countries on your list, #14:

www.si.com

#15 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2018-04-15 10:16 AM | Reply

Apparently just throwing money at the football team is not the answer.

#14 | POSTED BY MSGT AT

Fixed.

#16 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2018-04-15 10:22 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Apparently just throwing money at the problem is not the answer.

#14 | POSTED BY MSGT

Teachers across the country are striking ... why?

MONEY: Teachers pay $1.6 billion in school supplies
time.com

CNN: Teachers work up to 6 jobs. Now they're fed up and ready to walk out
www.cnn.com

USA Today: Kentucky teachers rally for education money, fixes to their pensions
www.usatoday.com

Do we as a country want high quality people teaching our kids and grandkids? If so, then pay teachers more. Higher pay attracts better talent.

Also, our schools are crap, literally...

WaPo: Public school buildings are falling apart, and students are suffering for it
www.washingtonpost.com

More education money is obviously needed ...

And taxing millionaires and billionaires who can afford higher taxes is part of the solution. But also education money needs to be spent smartly by people who know what they're doing -- and voting for incompetent presidential candidates like Trump so he can place incompetent people like Betsy DeVoss to be Education Secretary is a BIG part of the problem.

#17 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-04-15 10:38 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 6

This is a good thread.

The only thing missing is the 'Venus and the Man' video ...

youtu.be

Any education oriented DR thread should have the great Venus Flytrap video of him kicking the all-time great teacher truths.

#18 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-04-15 02:21 PM | Reply

It is not the schools, it is the families that need to change and emphasize education. More money for schools is useless as there is not enough time for instruction to offset horrible families.

#1 | POSTED BY REX_BUYT

So poor kids need better families. Any idea how we get them some? And if we can't, they're just SOL, right? Just what we need in this country: more poorly educated people unequipped to take the available jobs.

We, as a country, are better off doing whatever it takes to educate them than trying to figure out what to do with a lot of unemployable people. They're not just going to go away, you know. Jailing them costs more than educating them. Prison costs as much as Harvard.

"The average per-inmate cost was $31,286 in Fiscal Year 2010. The 40 states surveyed by this study spent $39 billion on maintaining their prisons in 2010". www.vera.org

#19 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2018-04-15 04:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

It is not the schools, it is the families that need to change and emphasize education. More money for schools is useless as there is not enough time for instruction to offset horrible families.

#1 | POSTED BY REX_BUYT

Great. And how do we fix that? Oh we can't?

Well, what CAN we do? That's the question you avoid like the plague.

Inner city schools are frankly chronically underfunded. That's something we could easily remedy.

#20 | Posted by Sycophant at 2018-04-15 05:52 PM | Reply

#20 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT

Nothing Can Be Done™

#21 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2018-04-15 09:06 PM | Reply

While the teachers are having to buy pencils and paper for the students out of their own pockets...

www.sportingnews.com

#22 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2018-04-16 03:40 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

While the teachers are having to buy pencils and paper for the students out of their own pockets...
www.sportingnews.com

#22 | POSTED BY HATTER5183

Hogwash!

This has nothing to do with a place like Japan or South Korea spending less money per student and getting better results.

Ask #14, they know stuffs. There's a list and everything, plus their favorite right wing hate radio super star told them it's because of other things.

#23 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2018-04-16 05:03 AM | Reply

This has nothing to do with a place like Japan or South Korea spending less money per student and getting better results.

But, I wonder, do they spend less money on teacher salaries per student?

#24 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2018-04-16 05:57 AM | Reply

But also education money needs to be spent smartly by people who know what they're doing -- and voting for incompetent presidential candidates like Trump so he can place incompetent people like Betsy DeVoss to be Education Secretary is a BIG part of the problem.

#17 | POSTED BY PINCHALOAF AT 2018-04-15 10:38 AM | FLAG:

You say "incompetent", her checkbook said otherwise.

- Donny Dotard.

#25 | Posted by 726 at 2018-04-16 08:33 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Inner city schools are frankly chronically underfunded. That's something we could easily remedy.

#20 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT AT 2018-04-15 05:52 PM | REPLY

No, you can't easily remedy urban flight and force nationwide tax reform. If it was easy it'd have already happened.

#26 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-04-16 09:19 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Not a problem - these kids are actually pretty bright - they figured out they will get 50 to 60k into debt and the only thing a college education can promise is a general office job paying about 40k a year. - and even if you land that... you'll be unemployed in 4 or 5 years due to layoffs and automation.

The really smart kids have discovered the higher paying jobs doesn't require a college education.

#27 | Posted by Pegasus at 2018-04-16 10:46 AM | Reply

higher paying jobs doesn't require a college education.

Which jobs are those?

#28 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2018-04-16 12:21 PM | Reply

Seems in some states this affects funding for schools [as well as other things]: More Absolutely Crazy Pension News www.zerohedge.com

#29 | Posted by MSgt at 2018-04-16 12:31 PM | Reply

Seems in some states this affects funding for schools [as well as other things]: More Absolutely Crazy Pension News www.zerohedge.com
#29 | POSTED BY MSGT

You know that's college, right? It literally has nothing to do with High School pensions.

Or were you just trying to push an outdated, disproven talking point?

#30 | Posted by Sycophant at 2018-04-16 12:39 PM | Reply

But, I wonder, do they spend less money on teacher salaries per student?

#24 | POSTED BY WHODAMAN AT 2018-04-16 05:57 AM | REPLY

Teacher salaries are not the problem. ADMINISTRATOR salaries are. In many school districts administrators outnumber teachers and they are non-union and typically much higher paid.

Locally bargained contracts result in actual first-year salaries ranging from $39,468 in North Mason to $48,343 in Everett, according to the Educational Service District's analysis. By the time teachers reach the top step of the scale, the gap has widened. North Mason's top teacher salary is $74,893

Administrators, including principals and top district officials, receive a state allocation of around $61,000 in most districts, including Central Kitsap, North Kitsap and North Mason. But the state allocation in some rural and remote districts is just more than $88,000. Meanwhile, the state average pay for administrators is an estimated $112,961, according to the Educational Service District.

www.kitsapsun.com

The average administrator pay is 50% higher than the top teacher pay. But go ahead keep pretending teacher salaries are the problem

#31 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2018-04-16 01:37 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Johnny you didn't do very well on the last history test but don't worry, you still get a sucker..
Cuz we don't want you to be stigmatized.
If you don't do so well on the job you take after school is over, the life lessons will start there.
~the PC azclowns

#32 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2018-04-16 03:50 PM | Reply

Teacher salaries are not the problem. ADMINISTRATOR salaries are. In many school districts, administrators outnumber teachers and they are non-union and typically much higher paid.

The average administrator pay is 50% higher than the top teacher pay. But go ahead keep pretending teacher salaries are the problem

#31 | POSTED BY HATTER5183

I'm not the one who is saying teacher salaries are the problem. My mother and sister were both school teachers and my wife works in the school system, as well. You're right. The administrative costs are out of line. But do you know why? Teacher salaries are capped in most places at a relatively low level. To make any more money, no matter how good a teacher you are, you have to become an administrator. Here in NC, teachers are no longer paid more for advanced degrees. I saw something similar in my own career in private industry. The best performers were forced to go into management if they wanted to make more money. Many of them were great at their old job, but lousy managers.

The "rules" of the system are the root of that problem. The bigger problem is the distribution of funds for schools. In the civilized world, schools are funded equally (i.e., not based on local property taxes). People don't have to move to put their kids in a better district. Less affluent kids get the same education as the rich kids.

Another thing is that in those other countries teachers are treated and respected as professionals, not "overpaid" babysitters. They also teach academic subjects as opposed to coaching for standardized tests (another perverse incentive built into the system).

#33 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2018-04-16 04:39 PM | Reply

higher paying jobs doesn't require a college education.
Which jobs are those?

Police . Fire - Civil service very hard to fire - 55k to 65k start - tops about 95k in major cities = pension 1/2 base salary until you die.

Which means you could go in at 18 and retire by 40 making about 45k to 55k for the rest of you life. Cons - it's a dangerous job.

Much safer but pays slightly less is Water Treatment operator or Traffic Signal technician - again civil service in by 18 out by 40 with 1/2 base pay for the rest of your life.

Elevator Service Tech - know 5 of these and not one makes below 125k - no schools - must be trained at manufacturers location but once done the world is opened to them - one is director of elevator/escalator operations for Hilton Hotels - He makes 375k a year.

Mechanics - Marine, Aircraft (A/P), Commercial Diesel, Car Dealerships - openings everywhere - 2 yr school then certification tests but after that easy to find many high paying jobs.

plumbers - electricians and A/C techs take home respectable paychecks.= Again openings everywhere - college NOT required.

Crane Operators - Remember "War of the Worlds" with Tom Cruise? His job was a Transmodal Crane Operator at the New York harbor a nice 130k paying union job - Many jobs at construction sites for overhead crane operators.

CDL Truck Driver - low pay - horrible hours BUT... I know of a young couple that got both heir CDL's and Team drove for JB Hunt making only 45k each. With no Rent, Mortgage, or property taxes to pay they save their money and was able to fully pay for and buy their dream house in just 3 years.

I could go on and on... but it should be clear that a college degree is no longer the path to a better paying job.


#34 | Posted by Pegasus at 2018-04-16 06:35 PM | Reply

That all sounds like work.

I'd rather make my money the way Trump does, by being born rich and pissing half of it away.

#35 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-04-16 06:52 PM | Reply

SPOKEN... like a true high school guidance counselor ...

yea, let me know how that NFL-NBA-Rapping-Moviestar career works out for you snof-dawg

#36 | Posted by Pegasus at 2018-04-16 08:03 PM | Reply

"it should be clear that a college degree is no longer the path to a better paying job."

It's not the only path, but to my knowledge it's still the best and biggest path.

If you have numbers that say otherwise, please share them.

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-04-16 10:35 PM | Reply

That all sounds like work. --- I hear ya bro --- wanna make big bucks without breaking out a sweat??... then become a health care professional !

ya don't need college for these...

X-Ray Tech -- my how times have changed! Dark rooms and chemicals are long gone --- everything now is totally digital and computer controlled - simply pose the patient and press a button - one yr class state cert test - high 70'sK pay - no college needed

Sterility Tech - HOT HOT HOT! openings nation wide! - Your job is to keep the OR and surgical tools sterile - you are present during operations as a witness to make sure Docs and Nurses follow sterility protocols - if not, you can submit report and even get them removed from the OR. Need 6 month class - cert test which will get you 55k to start - this position is sooo new I can see more responsibilities being added along with big pay increases -

Pacemaker Tech - job is to place a plastic ring above the pacemaker and print out a report from a special computer/printer and give this report to a doctor - under his direction you may have to change setting parameters of the pacemaker through the keyboard/mouse of this special computer - basically you are a factory rep - need factory classes - pay starts at 70 to 75k - no college needed

MRI tech - actually I know nothing about this since I never needed nor met anyone that runs this machine but I suspect a similar "no college" background but a factory class/ state cert is all that needed - but not sure.

#38 | Posted by Pegasus at 2018-04-16 11:02 PM | Reply

Yeah, no.

"An X-Ray Technician with late-career experience which includes employees with greater than 20 years of experience can expect to earn an average total compensation of $54,000 based on 160 salaries."

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-04-16 11:09 PM | Reply

"it should be clear that a college degree is no longer the path to a better paying job."

I don't think it will be long before a basic college degree (in anything) will be a requirement for a decent paying job.

Basic high school cred won't cut it for much longer. Not enough jobs, too many applicants.

#40 | Posted by REDIAL at 2018-04-16 11:22 PM | Reply

Here is the break down from Indeed

Salary Estimate
$35,000 (1736)
$40,000 (1531)
$45,000 (1182)
$50,000 (848)
$60,000 (408)

The high 70s I quoted is from a real person working at a major hospital here in Dallas with just 2 years of experience - XRay machines have radically changed - If you just got trained in the latest and greatest you will command the big pay.

Of course if your running a 30 year old machine in a hospital in Podunk, Idaho you can expect the 35k they throw at you....

Still the point still is ...no college needed in both cases -

#41 | Posted by Pegasus at 2018-04-16 11:34 PM | Reply

"Basic high school cred won't cut it for much longer. Not enough jobs, too many applicants."

You nailed it.
A college degree tells an employer you're willing to put up with arbitrary, stupid rules for four years and still get your work done.
A career is where you put up with arbitrary, stupid rules until you get outsourced, downsized, or RIF'd.

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-04-16 11:41 PM | Reply

"no college needed in both cases"

Given two applicants, the one with the college degree probably has a better chance of getting the job.

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-04-16 11:42 PM | Reply

Given two applicants, the one with the college degree probably has a better chance of getting the job.

More like...

Given two applicants, one has a college degree but the one with specialized training and a state certification/license probably has a better chance of getting the job.

Truth is a college degree gets you a laser printed paper mounted on a cheap Chinese wooden frame... about 18 cents cost

But you are $70k in debt

You still live with mommy and daddy

Your drive for Uber at night but work at Walmart stacking Chinese made goods on shelves for minimum wage....

You cry because you worked hard, studied, good grades and this is all there is..

Well kids are smarter than that... they have already figured out a college degree is a 4 year ride to Loserville so of course they are dropping out...duh...

#44 | Posted by Pegasus at 2018-04-17 05:03 AM | Reply

#44 You believe a college degree doesn't matter or is not needed. The opportunities for someone with a degree increase exponentially. All of the jobs you mention do require additional schooling. It may not be a four year college but it is additional education and receives certification, which is getting very expensive as well.

I agree, college is not for everyone but it is necessary. Acting like there are an endless amount of jobs where you can make enough to comfortably raise a family is naive. Both parents need to work full time to even give their kids what they had growing up. I was lucky. I was raised at a time where I could get a factory job and work my way up all while supporting my family. Now that's not really possible. Entry level wages are too low and advancement, without some type of degree, is very rare.

I dropped out of college when I was younger, I'm 52. I've worked in factories my whole working life. In order to advance and make substantially more money, the owner of my company, a die hard Republican Trump supporter, told me the only way to make more money and advance was to get a degree. So regardless of what you want to believe, even those who talk down about education are the very ones who require an education in order to advance.

To your last point, kids have always been dropping out. It's not because they know college is the path to Loserville but because they are not prepared when they get there or maybe they shouldn't have gone in the first place.

#45 | Posted by TheRef65 at 2018-04-17 08:51 AM | Reply

Given two applicants, one has a college degree but the one with specialized training and a state certification/license probably has a better chance of getting the job.
Truth is a college degree gets you a laser printed paper mounted on a cheap Chinese wooden frame... about 18 cents cost
#44 | POSTED BY PEGASUS

That's fantastic. And for what percentage of jobs out there are there state certifications or licenses? The answer is not very high.

Most jobs are not fixing cars or repairing things. And most often, you can't do those jobs until you are 65. A college degree means you can do much more. It's not what you learn in college but the ability to learn much more quickly and to effectively communicate. You learn skills there that you don't get from "specialized training" and "state certification/licenses".

And the pay difference over a lifetime is incredible. Yes, there is college debt. But the pay difference still comes out much higher. And the ability to change jobs is much higher with a college degree.

If you really believe that degree is worth 18 cents, it's because you didn't go to college.

#46 | Posted by Sycophant at 2018-04-17 11:27 AM | Reply

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