Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, December 19, 2017

What Muslims thought of the Christian Western Europe after the Crusades: "The broad Muslim perception of Europeans was as cross-eyed barbarians. There were clichés that got repeated up until the 19th century -- usually about their lack of cleanliness, the fact that they defecate in the street without any sense of privacy. There is a story about crusader medicine, that they blood-let in order to let the demons out. The people who knew the crusaders gave a much more refined understanding, but the positive narratives were not widely disseminated."

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Religion professor Suleiman Mourad: "If we wrote the history of the Crusades based on Islamic narratives, it would be a completely different story altogether. There were no doubt wars and bloodshed, but that wasn't the only or dominant story. There was also coexistence, political compromise, trade, scientific exchange, love. We have poetry and chronicles with evidence of mixed marriages."

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"Tell me about medieval Islamic civilization. Wasn't there a flowering in the 9th and 10th centuries?

SM: Actually, Islam's "golden age" goes much longer, from the 9th to the 14th centuries -- and it moves around, from Baghdad to Damascus to Cairo. Within that time, there were golden ages of mathematics and astronomy and medicine, with many advances.

One example: A physician named Ibm al-Nafis, who lived in the 13th century in Cairo, was the first person to describe the pulmonary circulation of blood -- four centuries before the Europeans discovered that.

The main accomplishment was when, on a large scale, Muslims began to creatively engage with the science and philosophy of the classical Greco-Roman-Byzantine tradition -- and began to rethink those ideas.

For pretty much the whole apparatus of science, mathematics and logic, Muslim scholars, along with others based in the Muslim world, provided corrections to the Greco-Roman tradition."

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2017-12-19 12:53 AM | Reply

I guess the Muslim forces invading southern Europe in the 700s had nothing to do with anything.

#2 | Posted by Sniper at 2017-12-19 01:24 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

The crusades were a response to Islamic aggression and pillaging across the continent. Many Christians were put into slavery. No one ever talks about that, which by the way, continues to this day..

#4 | Posted by boaz at 2017-12-19 08:02 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#3

You mean History Scholars discussing facts of history... unless you'd like to prove otherwise?

#5 | Posted by Corky at 2017-12-19 08:03 PM | Reply

"Many Christians were put into slavery."

Many Christians owned slaves.

#6 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-12-19 08:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Many Christians owned slaves.

As did many Blacks, oh the irony of it all.

#7 | Posted by Daniel at 2017-12-19 10:56 PM | Reply

Many Christians formed the original Abolitionist groups in this country and around the world. Many ran the Underground Railroad. Your brush is too broad.

#8 | Posted by Corky at 2017-12-19 11:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Many Christians owned slaves.
#6 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Nobody ever talks about that. Oh my, but here we are talking about it.

#9 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2017-12-20 12:30 AM | Reply

Many Christians owned slaves.
As did many Blacks, oh the irony of it all.
#7 | POSTED BY DANIEL

Nobody ever talks about that. Oh my, but here we are talking about it. Oh the irony of it all.

#10 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2017-12-20 12:31 AM | Reply | Funny: 2

The crusades were a response to Islamic aggression and pillaging across the continent. Many Christians were put into slavery. No one EVER!!!!!!! talks about that, which by the way, continues to this day..
#4 | POSTED BY BOAZ

And yet here were are talking about it. Oh the irony of it all.

[It's like ------' swatting flies]

#11 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2017-12-20 12:32 AM | Reply

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The crusades were a response to Islamic aggression and pillaging across the continent. Many Christians were put into slavery. No one ever talks about that, which by the way, continues to this day..

#4 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Across the continent? Germany was pillaged by muslims? Really?

And the Crusades, while initially in response to a plea for help from the Emperor of the Byzantine empire to the Catholic Church, were also a way to get the abundance of men at arms to "constructively" exert their talents.

#12 | Posted by jpw at 2017-12-20 02:43 AM | Reply

Your brush is too broad.
#8 | POSTED BY CORKY

No, your sensitive Christian snowflake dial is set to 11.

#13 | Posted by jpw at 2017-12-20 02:44 AM | Reply

What a thread... Muslims and Christians both did and continue to do some very bad things. Invasions, Rape, Murder, Pillage, slavery, etc. In general I have to say the Muslims of the the period were far more cultured, educated and civil in there general behavior than the Christians. Don't forget how the church was at that time or the Christian rulers and speaking frankly - Europeans were much more "yokel" / "country bumpkin" in general.

#14 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2017-12-20 08:14 AM | Reply

The history of man is the story of man's enslavement of man. Many leaders depending on imprisonment, execution and torture to maintain control through fear.

But ever so slowly another trend has established a system of justice and democracy has protected more and more individuals. Let's not pretend that means anything to the countries we've bombed into the stone age.

The institution of slavery has morphed into a global financial system which traps most people in life long debt (indentured servitude). It is unclear whether our government or a small group of families is in charge. Who really owns the Fed or its member Banks?

#15 | Posted by bayviking at 2017-12-20 08:35 AM | Reply

Many Christians owned slaves.
As did many Blacks, oh the irony of it all.

#7 | POSTED BY DANIEL

Great non sequitur. Makes identifying the idiot racist MAGA guy easy.

#16 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-12-20 09:52 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The crusades were a response to Islamic aggression and pillaging across the continent. Many Christians were put into slavery. No one ever talks about that, which by the way, continues to this day..

#4 | Posted by boaz

How come that is NEVER the story? It is a fact.

#17 | Posted by Sniper at 2017-12-20 10:33 AM | Reply

You mean History Scholars discussing facts of history... unless you'd like to prove otherwise?

#5 | Posted by Corky

Not if they have an lib adjenda. But I guess you have never studied history or you would know. Besides you are too lazy to look up the facts.

#18 | Posted by Sniper at 2017-12-20 10:35 AM | Reply

Many Christians owned slaves.

#6 | Posted by snoofy

Blacks here in the USA owned slaves. Chew on that fact sno.

#19 | Posted by Sniper at 2017-12-20 10:36 AM | Reply

And the Crusades, while initially in response to a plea for help from the Emperor of the Byzantine empire to the Catholic Church, were also a way to get the abundance of men at arms to "constructively" exert their talents.

#12 | Posted by jpw

I guess you can.t read my post that said southern Europe. Pull your head out of your back pocket.

#20 | Posted by Sniper at 2017-12-20 10:39 AM | Reply

#12 | Posted by jpw
I guess you can.t read my post

#20 | POSTED BY SNIPER AT 2017-12-20 10:39 AM | FLAG:

Well, honestly, in JPWs defense since Afkababbles left you, REMF Bozo and Avididiot are in contention for the most illiterate, rambling, nonsensical postings.

#21 | Posted by Reagan58 at 2017-12-20 10:48 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Many Christians owned slaves.
#6 | Posted by snoofy
Blacks here in the USA owned slaves. Chew on that fact sno.
#19 | POSTED BY SNIPER

Literally what does that have to do with the point Snoofy was making, Snowflake?

#22 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-12-20 10:59 AM | Reply

#20 I was responding to Boaz's post. You know, the one I quoted in my own post...

#23 | Posted by jpw at 2017-12-20 12:00 PM | Reply

How come that is NEVER the story? It is a fact.

#17 | POSTED BY SNIPER

That's the story in every book about the crusades that I've ever read.

#24 | Posted by jpw at 2017-12-20 12:02 PM | Reply

Not if they have an lib adjenda.

#18 | POSTED BY PEPETRUMPSTER69 AT 2017-12-20 10:35 AM | FLAG: paranoid

#25 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-12-20 12:31 PM | Reply

So many posts, so few article readers, lol.

The Crusades were not reactionary to Muslim conquests in Egypt nor their meddling in Europe which happened much earlier.

- Christian snowflake

Anti-historical punk. Christians were a prime force in the anti-slavery movement. They held the high moral ground from the Revolutionary War to the Civil War... unlike today's money-bound political pawn Evangels and rwing fruitcakes.

books.google.com

Jefferson and Franklin were also involved in the Abolitionist movement, although they both held slaves most of their lives.

#26 | Posted by Corky at 2017-12-20 01:13 PM | Reply

Not if they have an lib adjenda. But I guess you have never studied history or you would know. Besides you are too lazy to look up the facts.

#18 | Posted by Sniper

Nothing has changed. Evangelicals and Fundies are still yokels.

The Founding Fathers had a Liberal agenda when the created America.

But, I guess you have never studied history or you would know.

#27 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-12-20 01:29 PM | Reply

the=they

#28 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-12-20 01:58 PM | Reply

#26 thanks for proving my point lol

#29 | Posted by jpw at 2017-12-20 03:20 PM | Reply

There was a reason the so called golden age ended, his name was Al-Ghazali.Al-Ghazali believed that nothing could be known apart from God and Islam. Furthermore, it was futile -- and wrong -- to believe otherwise. After this guy the university in Baghdad was burned to the ground. Additionally this philosophy glorified ignorance. At this moment the country of Spain translates more books each year than the entire Muslim world.This philosophy didn't go over very well with the Ottomans. But the tide was set, by WWI the Ottoman Caliphate was torn to peaces and the middle east came under the domination of European powers. Ignorance does not pay.

#30 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-12-20 03:30 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

#27 | Posted by donnerboy Actually, I believe the founding fathers were trying to avoid the sectarian violence that plagued Europe for centuries, like the 100 year war. You also have to admit that on the day we won the revolution, most of the states had a state endorsed and state supported religion. That had changed completely by the time the Constitution was accepted. BTW, a majority of the Universities at that time were established by churches.

#31 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-12-20 03:44 PM | Reply

#26 | Posted by Corky, Jefferson true, Franklin not so much. Franklin owned up to six slaves as household help and to work in his print shop during the 1740s. In the 1750s he established the first American abolitionist society in Philadelphia. In his will he had two slaves freed at his death. He apparently had freed the others earlier, (after they had a marketable skill). One has to remember he lived as a virtual slave while he was young, as an indentured servant to his brother, apparently it was intolerable and he ran away. Jefferson had lost everything, including Monticello when he went bankrupt. The slaves around him were property of his son in law with the exception of a few household slave.

#32 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-12-20 04:20 PM | Reply

The Founding Fathers had a Liberal agenda when the created America.

But, I guess you have never studied history or you would know.

#27 | Posted by donnerboy

Bah Donner, you know better than that. The liberalism of the Founding Fathers was completely and totally the opposite of what passes as liberalism today. They were classical liberals, libertarians you might say, oh the horror!

#33 | Posted by Daniel at 2017-12-20 05:10 PM | Reply

Actually, I believe the founding fathers were trying...

And you get to believe what you want to believe....this is the America the Founding Fathers created. As long as it does not pick my pocket or break my bones have at it.

"If you aren't free to think your own thoughts and believe your own beliefs", fumed Madison, "you aren't free, period".

#34 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-12-20 05:11 PM | Reply

The liberalism of the Founding Fathers was completely and totally the opposite of what passes Fox News and Rush Dimbulb has labeled as liberalism today.

(which, of course, has nothing to do with reality)

#35 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-12-20 05:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I haven't met too many Christians who don't seem like yokels.

#36 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-12-20 09:48 PM | Reply

#36 | Posted by snoofy Compared to who? Plus I seriously doubt you would know a Christian if you ran over them.
Spend a few years in the middle east, you will find locals who believe our vehicles had force fields, then tied towels on RPG war heads to get through them, because they saw our radios.

#37 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-12-21 03:25 AM | Reply

"I seriously doubt you would know a Christian if you ran over them."

I hear there is a game where you get extra points for that.

#38 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-12-21 11:30 AM | Reply

There was a reason the so called golden age ended, his name was Al-Ghazali.Al-Ghazali believed that nothing could be known apart from God and Islam. Furthermore, it was futile -- and wrong -- to believe otherwise. After this guy the university in Baghdad was burned to the ground. Additionally this philosophy glorified ignorance. At this moment the country of Spain translates more books each year than the entire Muslim world.This philosophy didn't go over very well with the Ottomans. But the tide was set, by WWI the Ottoman Caliphate was torn to peaces and the middle east came under the domination of European powers. Ignorance does not pay.

#30 | POSTED BY DOCNJO AT 2017-12-20 03:30 PM | REPLY

What a childish misreading of Al-Ghazali you've assembled for us here. For starters, the Golden Age of Islamic Philosophy didn't come to an end until the end of the 12th century C.E. So your suggestion is what? That everyone real Al-Ghazali but just decided to coast for 90 years or so?

As for Al-Ghazali himself, his work was a brilliant philosophical and theological critique of the Aristotelian and Platonic philosophy abroad in the Islamic world of his day... using philosophical and theological reasoning. Compare this to the Christian backlash against these philosophies, which merely took the form of a condemnation by the Church (in 1277). Even the skeptical elements you are so concerned with are underpinned by a critique of the necessary relationships between causes and effects that anticipates David Hume by more than 6 centuries.

#39 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-12-21 12:01 PM | Reply

"36 | Posted by snoofy Compared to who? Plus I seriously doubt you would know a Christian if you ran over them."

No True Scotsman?

"Spend a few years in the middle east, you will find locals who believe our vehicles had force fields, then tied towels on RPG war heads to get through them, because they saw our radios."

Bomb a people back to the Stone Age, then laugh when they act like it... Also, your few years brutalizing the locals for no good reason hardly counts as a cultural exchange.

#40 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-12-21 12:16 PM | Reply

700 years later we have confirmed that indeed, christians are yokels

#41 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-12-21 12:19 PM | Reply

#39 | Posted by DirkStruan, Source? Why not explain the "golden age" demise- Of course you did not elaborate the essence of Al-Ghazali's philosophy. Which is basically to accept Islam's explanation of the universe with out question. Basicly the death of critical thinking.
#40 | Posted by DirkStruan, These people were doing this the first year of our occupation, long before we supposedly bombed them into the stone age. For someone who has never set foot in that country, you seem to consider yourself quite the expert.

#42 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-12-21 02:57 PM | Reply

"39 | Posted by DirkStruan, Source? Why not explain the "golden age" demise- Of course you did not elaborate the essence of Al-Ghazali's philosophy. Which is basically to accept Islam's explanation of the universe with out question. Basicly the death of critical thinking."

Critique IS critical thinking, you dull creature. You are much closer to describing the Christian response to Aristotelianism and Platonism. Al-Ghazali's writings brilliantly exposed the internal tensions within the philosophy of his day, using the tools of philosophy itself (he was, of course, a noted logician). Likewise, he nowhere condemns theological thinking. Hardly the proponent of uncritical acceptance you'd make him out to be.

As for the cause of the end of the Golden Age, I think you'll find it has less to do with the writings of one Islamic scholar than with, oh, say, the collapse of the Abbasid Caliphate and repeated invasions from the East.

"#40 | Posted by DirkStruan, These people were doing this the first year of our occupation, long before we supposedly bombed them into the stone age. For someone who has never set foot in that country, you seem to consider yourself quite the expert."

Which occupation was that again? Since, you know, there were several over centuries of time. And your expertise comes from what? Using machine guns on the locals?

#43 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-12-21 03:40 PM | Reply

"Compared to who? Plus I seriously doubt you would know a Christian if you ran over them.
#37 | POSTED BY DOCNJO "

Come on.
I see some bitch wearing a cross around her neck, it's a safe bet she's a Christian.

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-12-21 07:51 PM | Reply

Come on.
I see some bitch wearing a cross around her neck, it's a safe bet she's a Christian.

#44 | Posted by snoofy

Or her name is Buffy.

#45 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-12-21 08:01 PM | Reply

"I see some bitch wearing a cross around her neck, it's a safe bet she's a Christian."

I see some punk wearing a turban, it's a safe bet he's a Muslim. Unless he's a Sikh. Or a mukurinu, or Hindi...

#46 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-12-21 10:39 PM | Reply

"700 years later we have confirmed that indeed, christians are yokels"

You should travel to Syria and help your Daesh friends put these Yokels in thier place.

#47 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-12-21 10:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I think you'll score quite highly in the human bomb career field.

#48 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-12-21 10:40 PM | Reply

"I see some punk wearing a turban, it's a safe bet he's a Muslim. Unless he's a Sikh. Or a mukurinu, or Hindi..."

Or Mr. Samuel L. Jackson in the 90s cult classic "The Great White Hype."

#49 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-12-22 12:06 AM | Reply

#43 | Posted by DirkStruan, And your expertise comes from what? Using machine guns on the locals? Naw- mostly training the guys who are probity fighting for ISIS now. I spent most of my time in the Sunni triangle. I always find it humorous to hear virtue signaling from one with no masculine virtue like courage at all and would not know such if he encountered it. Stick with your vegan-soy diet.

#50 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-12-22 11:37 AM | Reply

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