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Saturday, November 25, 2017

Laurel Hubbard has been named to the New Zealand women's weightlifting team for the Commonwealth Games, sparking controversy in the sport.
Hubbard, 39, will be the first transgender sportsperson to represent New Zealand. 

After being cleared by the International Olympic Committee and Olympic Weightlifting New Zealand (OWNZ) last week, it was confirmed that she would be one of 12 athletes in the Kiwi home state's weightlifting team on the Gold Coast.
Hubbard will compete in the women's +90kg category, introduced by the International Weightlifting Federation at the start of the year.

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I am all for transgender, but what about "fair" womens competition?

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Admin's note: Participants in this discussion must follow the site's moderation policy. Profanity will be filtered. Abusive conduct is not allowed.

Obviously you aren't when you address a trans woman as male.

#1 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-11-25 04:53 PM | Reply

If you're born a man you should be competing as a man, even if you're on performance decreasing drugs. Otherwise we have to abolish all gender divisions in sports and let the chips fall where they may.

#2 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-25 07:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The nuts are running the asylum.

#3 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2017-11-25 07:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"...even if you're on performance decreasing drugs." - #2 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-25 07:00 PM

There just had to be something about your posts.

Thanks for identifying performance decreasing drugs as the culprit, sitz.

#4 | Posted by Hans at 2017-11-25 07:52 PM | Reply

what about "fair" womens competition?

I guess one solution would be: "Cis-women" as a division then "females" as another division.

#5 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2017-11-25 08:05 PM | Reply

Can someone please explain to me how this is sane?

Why in the world are women not outraged?

#6 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2017-11-25 08:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Why in the world are women not outraged?"

Normal people don't care about weightlifting, and care even less about female weightlifting.

#7 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-25 08:44 PM | Reply

My wife and sons compete in Olympic lifting snoofy... met a lot of great people there. Don't be an ass and make it sound like it's not normal thing, and that no one does cares about it.

#8 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2017-11-26 08:16 AM | Reply

If the International Olympic Committee and International Weightlifting Federation believe that this woman does not have an unfair competitive advantage, I think it's safe to ignore the concerns of random Internet yahoos who have zero interest in a sport except when a transgender athlete competes in it.

Is the "consistent testosterone level "below 10 nmol/L" standard the best rule? I don't think we know until there are examples of athletes competing under it. I applaud the sport for trying to find ways to include transgender women, even if ultimately they decide they need another rule.

#9 | Posted by rcade at 2017-11-26 08:26 AM | Reply

I believe that the definition of definition is reinvention. To not be like your parents. To not be like your friends. To be yourself.

Completely.

When I was young I had no sense of myself. All I was, was a product of all the fear and humiliation I suffered. Fear of my parents. The humiliation of teachers calling me "garbage can" and telling me I'd be mowing lawns for a living. And the very real terror of my fellow students. I was threatened and beaten up for the color of my skin and my size. I was skinny and clumsy, and when others would tease me I didn't run home crying, wondering why.

I knew all too well. I was there to be antagonized. In sports I was laughed at. A spaz. I was pretty good at boxing but only because the rage that filled my every waking moment made me wild and unpredictable. I fought with some strange fury. The other boys thought I was crazy.

I hated myself all the time.

As stupid at it seems now, I wanted to talk like them, dress like them, carry myself with the ease of knowing that I wasn't going to get pounded in the hallway between classes. Years passed and I learned to keep it all inside. I only talked to a few boys in my grade. Other losers. Some of them are to this day the greatest people I have ever known. Hang out with a guy who has had his head flushed down a toilet a few times, treat him with respect, and you'll find a faithful friend forever. But even with friends, school sucked. Teachers gave me hard time. I didn't think much of them either.

Then came Mr. Pepperman, my advisor. He was a powerfully built Vietnam veteran, and he was scary. No one ever talked out of turn in his class. Once one kid did and Mr. P. lifted him off the ground and pinned him to the blackboard. Mr. P. could see that I was in bad shape, and one Friday in October he asked me if I had ever worked out with weights. I told him no.

He told me that I was going to take some of the money that I had saved and buy a hundred-pound set of weights at Sears. As I left his office, I started to think of things I would say to him on Monday when he asked about the weights that I was not going to buy. Still, it made me feel special. My father never really got that close to caring. On Saturday I bought the weights, but I couldn't even drag them to my mom's car. An attendant laughed at me as he put them on a dolly.....

#10 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2017-11-26 09:40 AM | Reply

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Monday came and I was called into Mr. P.'s office after school. He said that he was going to show me how to work out. He was going to put me on a program and start hitting me in the solar plexus in the hallway when I wasn't looking. When I could take the punch we would know that we were getting somewhere. At no time was I to look at myself in the mirror or tell anyone at school what I was doing. In the gym he showed me ten basic exercises. I paid more attention than I ever did in any of my classes. I didn't want to blow it. I went home that night and started right in.

Weeks passed, and every once in a while Mr. P. would give me a shot and drop me in the hallway, sending my books flying. The other students didn't know what to think. More weeks passed, and I was steadily adding new weights to the bar. I could sense the power inside my body growing. I could feel it.

Right before Christmas break I was walking to class, and from out of nowhere Mr. Pepperman appeared and gave me a shot in the chest. I laughed and kept going. He said I could look at myself now. I got home and ran to the bathroom and pulled off my shirt. I saw a body, not just the shell that housed my stomach and my heart. My biceps bulged. My chest had definition. I felt strong. It was the first time I can remember having a sense of myself. I had done something and no one could ever take it away. You couldn't say s–t to me.

It took me years to fully appreciate the value of the lessons I have learned from the Iron. I used to think that it was my adversary, that I was trying to lift that which does not want to be lifted. I was wrong. When the Iron doesn't want to come off the mat, it's the kindest thing it can do for you. If it flew up and went through the ceiling, it wouldn't teach you anything. That's the way the Iron talks to you. It tells you that the material you work with is that which you will come to resemble. That which you work against will always work against you.

It wasn't until my late twenties that I learned that by working out I had given myself a great gift. I learned that nothing good comes without work and a certain amount of pain. When I finish a set that leaves me shaking, I know more about myself. When something gets bad, I know it can't be as bad as that workout.

I used to fight the pain, but recently this became clear to me: pain is not my enemy; it is my call to greatness. But when dealing with the Iron, one must be careful to interpret the pain correctly. Most injuries involving the Iron come from ego. I once spent a few weeks lifting weight that my body wasn't ready for and spent a few months not picking up anything heavier than a fork. Try to lift what you're not prepared to and the Iron will teach you a little lesson in restraint and self-control.

I have never met a truly strong person who didn't have self-respect. I think a lot of inwardly and outwardly directed contempt passes itself off as self-respect: the idea of raising yourself by stepping on someone's shoulders instead of doing it yourself. When I see guys working out for cosmetic reasons, I see vanity exposing them in the worst way, as cartoon characters, billboards for imbalance and insecurity. Strength reveals itself through character. It is the difference between bouncers who get off strong-arming people and Mr.Pepperman.

Muscle mass does not always equal strength. Strength is kindness and sensitivity. Strength is understanding that your power is both physical and emotional. That it comes from the body and the mind. And the heart.

Yukio Mishima said that he could not entertain the idea of romance if he was not strong. Romance is such a strong and overwhelming passion, a weakened body cannot sustain it for long. I have some of my most romantic thoughts when I am with the Iron. Once I was in love with a woman. I thought about her the most when the pain from a workout was racing through my body.

#11 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2017-11-26 09:40 AM | Reply

Everything in me wanted her. So much so that sex was only a fraction of my total desire. It was the single most intense love I have ever felt, but she lived far away and I didn't see her very often. Working out was a healthy way of dealing with the loneliness. To this day, when I work out I usually listen to ballads.

I prefer to work out alone.

It enables me to concentrate on the lessons that the Iron has for me. Learning about what you're made of is always time well spent, and I have found no better teacher. The Iron had taught me how to live. Life is capable of driving you out of your mind. The way it all comes down these days, it's some kind of miracle if you're not insane. People have become separated from their bodies. They are no longer whole.

I see them move from their offices to their cars and on to their suburban homes. They stress out constantly, they lose sleep, they eat badly. And they behave badly. Their egos run wild; they become motivated by that which will eventually give them a massive stroke. They need the Iron Mind.

Through the years, I have combined meditation, action, and the Iron into a single strength. I believe that when the body is strong, the mind thinks strong thoughts. Time spent away from the Iron makes my mind degenerate. I wallow in a thick depression. My body shuts down my mind.

The Iron is the best antidepressant I have ever found. There is no better way to fight weakness than with strength. Once the mind and body have been awakened to their true potential, it's impossible to turn back.

The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you're a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black. I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds.

-- Henry Lawrence Garfield

#12 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2017-11-26 09:41 AM | Reply

If I'm not mistaken, women and men (as born by genitalia) have different muscle configurations, specifically in the lower back for bearing children. Shouldn't that play into a weight lifting competition?

#15 | Posted by truthhurts at 2017-11-26 12:02 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If I'm not mistaken, women and men (as born by genitalia) have different muscle configurations, specifically in the lower back for bearing children. Shouldn't that play into a weight lifting competition?
#15 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

I don't believe this is true. But the difference is that a man can build more mass then got through therapy to lower testosterone levels and maintain these gains. We see this in cycling, and why they create a bio passport early in the athletes career.

If the women (why use transgender women?) made the conversion therapy early enough in their life it wouldn't be a big deal. But to train as a male and then convert is a huge advantage, its not just about conversion but period of therapy and transition age.

#16 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2017-11-26 04:58 PM | Reply

KWRX I wasn't trying to disparage weightlifting, I am just saying this isn't a huge blip on most people's radar.

I suppose I'm okay with sports figuring out for themselves what class to put transgenders into.

#17 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-26 06:01 PM | Reply

#16 hmmm seems to be true, learn something new everyday

I remember an episode of All in the Family, where the women could do a trick men couldn't do, bend over lean head against a wall, lift a chair and stand up. I thought it was do to different muscle configuration to permit child bearing.

#18 | Posted by truthhurts at 2017-11-26 06:30 PM | Reply

Is the "consistent testosterone level "below 10 nmol/L" standard the best rule?

I would think that that's largely meaningless as that is measured at the time of competition or qualifying, no?

Which is past the time when they benefited from higher testosterone levels to increase muscle mass and growth.

That's like saying cyclists who dope to increase red blood cell counts shouldn't face consequences so long as the substance is gone by race day.

#19 | Posted by jpw at 2017-11-26 06:35 PM | Reply

Look I have no measurable testosterone levels. I USED to be able to lift 400 pounds easy. 50 pounds is pressing my ability today.

#20 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-11-26 06:43 PM | Reply

Bill Johnson has a case of the crabbies.

#22 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-11-26 09:39 PM | Reply

Which is past the time when they benefited from higher testosterone levels to increase muscle mass and growth.

Muscle mass doesn't stay around forever. Unless you have scientific links to establish she has an unfair advantage, I'm going to accept the judgment of the organizing bodies of the sport, who ruled she doesn't.

"Losing testosterone means losing strength and having less athletic agility. We don't know if testosterone has a direct effect on muscle strength, but without the testosterone, they are maintained at a lower pace." -- Dr. Robert S. Beil, How Does Transitioning Affect a Transgender Athlete's Sports Performance?

www.shape.com

#23 | Posted by rcade at 2017-11-26 11:17 PM | Reply

Trust me. Sometimes I've had to resort to using strap wrenches to open jars of food. LOL Sad I know.

#24 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-11-26 11:21 PM | Reply

Thanks for identifying performance decreasing drugs as the culprit, sitz.

#4 | POSTED BY HANS AT 2017-11-25 07:52 PM | FLAG:

I think if you tried you could miss the point harder, but it would take effort.

#25 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-27 07:48 AM | Reply

Unless you have scientific links to establish she has an unfair advantage, I'm going to accept the judgment of the organizing bodies of the sport, who ruled she doesn't.

#23 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2017-11-26 11:17 PM | FLAG:

From your own article, from the same doctor:

"A FTM trans person will end up somewhat disadvantaged because they have a smaller frame," Beil says. "But MTF trans people tend to be bigger, and may have certain strengths from before they started using estrogen. It's these particular advantages that are raising tough questions for athletic organizations around the the world. "I think for high school or local athletic organizations, it's a small enough difference that people should largely ignore it," he says. "It's a harder question when you're talking about elite athletes."

It's a very difficult question in regards to high level athletics. This isn't a new issue, Fallon Fox (Fox Fallon?) was a MTF transition in MMA. State athletic commissions don't even have the resources for serious anti-doping regimes like USADA testing. You have to maintain long term biological baselines for all the athletes and track any transitioning through it. The Olympics don't do that, they're just a dog & pony show. Any sport that wants to be serious about it has to hire Jeff Novitzky or expert equivalent and conduct a long term study.

#26 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-27 08:09 AM | Reply

It's a very difficult question in regards to high level athletics.

It is. That's why I support the decisions reached by the individual sports on whether transgender women can compete fairly. If they allow them or disallow them, as long as they were serious in how they approached the issue I can support that.

The position taken by others here is that it's always wrong to include them out of some general idea of unfairness, even if a sport decided it is fair. I think that's intolerant. We should let the sports decide.

#27 | Posted by rcade at 2017-11-27 09:28 AM | Reply

Well it's not "the sport". "The Sport" is not even a thing. It's state athletic commissions & "sports organizations". Regulations vary state to state on individual sports, are subject to political whim, are famously corrupt, can't afford real PED testing regimes and don't know the biological baselines of their own competing athletes, etc, etc.

Sports organizations have their own issues. The only sports organization that does biological screening anything close to right is the UFC, and they only did it to pump up their sale value from Zuffa to WME. Pride in Japan was the extreme opposite, their contracts said "We do not test for PEDs", and guys went into the ring on all of the steroids, plus painkillers (see the documentary "Smashing Machine", about Mark Kerr). In the NFL/MLB/NBA/Olypmics PED testing is called an "intelligence test", because only morons are caught.

I'm not convinced those gatekeepers are capable of making a meaningful decision based on science, and we should hedge on the side of athlete safety (which will vary per sport of course).

#28 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-27 10:00 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

We should let the sports decide.

#27 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2017-11-27 09:28 AM | REPLY

Just to add some absurdity, the Olympics decided Curling needs gender divisions.

Curling.

#29 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-27 02:48 PM | Reply

Well it's not "the sport". "The Sport" is not even a thing.

Don't be a semantic twerp. You know that "the sport" meant the organization(s) that officiate the sport.

I'm not convinced those gatekeepers are capable of making a meaningful decision based on science, and we should hedge on the side of athlete safety (which will vary per sport of course).

No weightlifters are put at risk by another athlete being transgender, so there's no safety issue here. I see little chance of women's sports having a potential safety issue over a transgender participant. It's not like these sports all have biological female athletes of the same size and strength. In the Olympics the big nations have far bigger and stronger competitors than the small nations. That's not considered a safety issue.

#30 | Posted by rcade at 2017-11-27 09:56 PM | Reply

In the Olympics the big nations have far bigger and stronger competitors than the small nations. That's not considered a safety issue.

#30 | POSTED BY RCADE AT

I don't get it.

How can the population around a person effect their size and strength?

That doesn't make sense.

There are 7 divisions for football in the state I live in, the divisions are based on the amount of students in the school. All of the other sports have fewer divisions, but they are split up in the same manner.

It doesn't matter how many kids are in the school, you only get to have 11 football players on the field at one time.

The individual sports and their divisions are even more idiotic. How does attending a school with 1,000 students make you a faster runner than attending a school with 10 students? Do they allow the other 999 kids to carry you?

#31 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2017-11-28 05:34 AM | Reply

How does attending a school with 1,000 students make you a faster runner than attending a school with 10 students?

Because the chances of the fastest runner in those 1,010 students being in the larger school is much higher?

#32 | Posted by REDIAL at 2017-11-28 07:16 AM | Reply

#32 | POSTED BY REDIAL

The chances of having a kid who smokes weed in the back stall and pukes in the parking lot are much higher too.

That kid isn't running track.

#33 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2017-11-28 08:12 AM | Reply

I see little chance of women's sports having a potential safety issue over a transgender participant.

#30 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2017-11-27 09:56 PM | FLAG:

You must not actually watch sports. There's women's football, mma, boxing, karate, judo, rugby, etc, etc.

Also, athlete safety is also about their personal safety. Weight lifting averages a major injury every 200 hours.

Like I said, it's a hard question. I'll be more supportive when there's more science behind it and we're effectively tracking biological baselines of athletes and at least know the average range of a natural human in their assigned division.

#34 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-28 08:26 AM | Reply

and while we're at it, here's Fallon Fox flatlining somebody in 39 seconds.

www.youtube.com

I just can't agree with sanctioning that fight. I don't see how somebody could.

#35 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-28 08:28 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Don't be a semantic twerp. You know that "the sport" meant the organization(s) that officiate the sport.

#30 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2017-11-27 09:56 PM | FLAG:

Speaking of twerps, you trust the NFL for safety regs? They embarked on a campaign to hide the chronic brain damage of their participants and fought the science every single step of the way.

#36 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-28 08:31 AM | Reply

#35,

That was horrible. There are just some things that should not be done, even if it's possible to do it. Letting someone born a man fight natural born women is the WRONG answer, I don't care who you are. The comments section is spot on.

#37 | Posted by boaz at 2017-11-28 08:47 AM | Reply

That was horrible. There are just some things that should not be done, even if it's possible to do it. Letting someone born a man fight natural born women is the WRONG answer, I don't care who you are. The comments section is spot on.

Posted by boaz at 2017-11-28 08:47 AM | Reply

NOBODY is born a man(That would hurt the woman)This is another prime example how ignorant and bigoted you really are.

#38 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-11-28 09:07 AM | Reply

#38 That is an interesting statement, Laura. I was born male and identify as male. I am human. What does it take to qualify as a man? Be careful... your potential answers are a minefield of feminist hypocrisy (not YOUR hypocrisy, to be clear).

#39 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-28 09:19 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Wow, this thread screeched to an abrupt halt.

#40 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-28 02:20 PM | Reply

"What does it take to qualify as a man? " - #39 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-28 09:19 AM

For you?

I'm not sure you even make the cut, much less qualify.

#41 | Posted by Hans at 2017-11-28 02:44 PM | Reply

#40,

Of course it did when you started asking for facts.

And of course, troll Hans comes out with nothing but insults as usual.

#42 | Posted by boaz at 2017-11-28 03:16 PM | Reply

#42 | Posted by pfc. boaz at 2017-11-28 03:16 PM

I'm still living in your head rent free, pfc. boaz.

Cathedral ceiling, some bats flying around, and dark, very, very dark.

#43 | Posted by Hans at 2017-11-28 03:19 PM | Reply

Wow, this thread screeched to an abrupt halt.

#40 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-28 02:20 PM | Reply | Flag

No sense feeding your troll ass. We've been over this countless times before. You refuse to educate yourself just like Boaz. I will let you remain willfully stupid. It suits you.

#44 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-11-28 03:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

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