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Wednesday, November 15, 2017

Open mike night #2: on the now-defunct thread about SSNs, I responded to a post about issuance of a federal identity card. The closure of that thread precluded any further discussion, but I think it's warranted. Grab those thinking caps one more time, kids.

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My original post:

I actually think it's an idea that is overdue and it is a mitigation for a VAST array of problems. The DOD has been using chipped ID cards for some time now (and the technology is already getting old). Think about the potential applications of a federal identity card combined with some form of biometric data: a. Voter ID. Insert the card into a reader, scan a thumbprint, and vote...anywhere. Your vote would only count in your precinct and you could not vote twice...the system wouldn't let you. b. Medical ID. The card could either contain your medical history or enable a first responder to access a cloud based history. Hell, when (not if) we go single payer, it'll be your insurance card. c. Firearms purchases. Insert card, scan thumbprint...form is filled out and your legal and medical history (including mental illness) are provided, along with a yes/no approval for purchase. Background and medical checks complete. d. Interstate drivers license. e. Primary or backup Passport. It would only be issued to US citizens. f. Just like the DOD does, it could be used to electronically sign emails or access websites.

Do I worry about federal overreach? Sure, but it solves a LOT of problems.

Comments

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It's Mic NOT Mike.

#1 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-11-15 08:06 AM | Reply

Sure.

Just have it cost $105/yr and available at only one DMV site in each state so as to suppress minority voters.

#2 | Posted by 726 at 2017-11-15 08:07 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I will hack your stupid card in hours.

#3 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-15 08:18 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Actual black hats will do it in minutes.

#4 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-15 08:18 AM | Reply

#2 Make possession of a federal ID mandatory to receive any federal benefits and the problem solves itself, doesn't it? Anyone that can find time to apply for benefits can find the time to pick up a new federal ID.

Next deflection.

#5 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-15 08:23 AM | Reply

Sitz, that's why I recommend the card be half of a dual-factor authentication with the other half being biometric. Hell, it could be 3-factor. The government provides the hardware, the user provides a 6-8 digit PIN, and biometrics.

#6 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-15 08:25 AM | Reply

#2 Make possession of a federal ID mandatory to receive any federal benefits and the problem solves itself, doesn't it? Anyone that can find time to apply for benefits can find the time to pick up a new federal ID.
Next deflection.

#5 | POSTED BY MUSTANG AT 2017-11-15 08:23 AM | REPLY | FLAG

Even better, then no one gets benefits. Two birds one stone.

#7 | Posted by 726 at 2017-11-15 08:42 AM | Reply

#7 You don't have to oversell the idea, 726. We all see the up side.

#8 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-15 08:52 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Mustang that sounds like the beings of the "Mark of the Beast"...

#9 | Posted by PinkyanTheBrain at 2017-11-15 09:47 AM | Reply

#9: Whaaaat? Nothing prophesied 2000 years ago could never really happen in a modern educated society, right?

#10 | Posted by Daniel at 2017-11-15 09:59 AM | Reply

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"Nothing prophesied 2000 years ago could never really happen in a modern educated society, right?" - #10 | Posted by Daniel at 2017-11-15 09:59 AM

Correct.

It wasn't prophesied 2000 years ago.

#11 | Posted by Hans at 2017-11-15 10:01 AM | Reply


I am not opposed to a federal ID card.

I am opposed the the potential and easy abuse that such a card represents.

We would just be replacing one federal ID number, SSN, with another, without changing any of the widely deployed infrastructure that uses it.

#12 | Posted by LampLighter at 2017-11-15 10:10 AM | Reply

#9 Not until we'll tattooing bar codes on the backs of baby's necks and putting identity chips in their foreheads. That's next year's plan.

#13 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-15 10:11 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

and biometrics.

#6 | POSTED BY MUSTANG AT 2017-11-15 08:25 AM | FLAG:

Easy to spoof. Extremely hard to detect the spoofing.

www.google.com

#14 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-15 10:13 AM | Reply

and you can brute force an 8 digit pin in no time. Hardware is getting ridiculously fast and will only get faster.

#15 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-15 10:14 AM | Reply

#12 I understand the hesitancy, but for all intents and purposes, every SSN has already been compromised and/or stolen. It's only 9 digits, and we don't even use all of the possible permutations. By comparison, credit cards have 19 digits and companies actively monitor their use, reissuing new ones when old ones are compromised. My cell phone has 3 different ways of doing biometric scanning (facial recognition, iris scan, and fingerprint). Government agencies around the world already use similar technologies: US DOD CAC cards, biometric passports, and a host of national electronic IDs: en.wikipedia.org

#16 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-15 10:30 AM | Reply

#14/#15 yes, but is it easier or harder than what we're doing now (which is nothing)?

#17 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-15 10:34 AM | Reply


Note that there are multiple levels of functionality in an ID system.

The one that most are familiar with is uniqueness. There is one and only one of each ID number "out there" in the wild.

The next level is identity. The unique number is associated with one and only one entity ("individual"). This is what Social Security Numbers provide.

The next level is verification. There is some process used to ascertain whether the identity presenting the identification number is the actual identity associated the identification number. With SSNs, this is the usual set of questions you are asked when you need to assure your identity. With the proposals mentioned in comments above, it may be biometrics.

The next level is permissions. This determines what the verified identity is allowed to do, e.g., vote.

And the usual final level is auditing. This is the formal record of what the identity has done.

#18 | Posted by LampLighter at 2017-11-15 10:39 AM | Reply

#14/#15 yes, but is it easier or harder than what we're doing now (which is nothing)?

#17 | POSTED BY MUSTANG AT 2017-11-15 10:34 AM | REPLY

Easier. You're putting everybody's data in 1 spot. If there are cards, there will be scanners. How do you want me to scan it? Fake embedded scanner? Easy peasy, done all the time. RFID? Okay, now I can just stand there with an antenna in my pocket and farm everybody in downtown Houston's data as they walk by.

You've got a solution to a problem that doesn't need solving.

#19 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-15 11:14 AM | Reply

#18 That's a good framework. The problem with the current system lies in two parts: identity and verification. The identity problem exists largely because of the weakness of the verification process. Companies like LifeLock owe their livelihood to it.

#20 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-15 11:18 AM | Reply

"...now I can just stand there with an antenna in my pocket..." - #19 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-15 11:14 AM

Or, as BuffaloBob might say: "Is that an antenna in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

#21 | Posted by Hans at 2017-11-15 11:21 AM | Reply | Funny: 2


@#20 ... The problem with the current system lies in two parts: identity and verification. The identity problem exists largely because of the weakness of the verification process. ...

Yup.

It seems that many entities needing to verify identity do so via differing means.

The good police officer that pulls you over, verifies your license number via the picture on your driver's license.

The credit bureaus, when you request a credit report, verify your identity by asking questions about loans you have taken out, or prior addresses where you have lived.

It's a mash-up of various verification processes that depend upon random bits of information about you.

#22 | Posted by LampLighter at 2017-11-15 11:50 AM | Reply

Doesn't the RealID act imposed on state IDs make a federal ID redundant?

#23 | Posted by sentinel at 2017-11-15 03:04 PM | Reply


@#23 Doesn't the RealID act imposed on state IDs make a federal ID redundant?

That depends upon the purpose of a federal ID. If the purpose of a federal ID is to have one ID number per person, then no.

The RealID act "... established minimum security standards for state-issued driver's licenses and identification cards and prohibits Federal agencies from accepting for official purposes licenses and identification cards from states that do not meet these standards...." ( www.dhs.gov )

It appears the RealID act doesn't dictate one and only one ID, but just sets minimum security standards fod IDs issued by the states.

#24 | Posted by LampLighter at 2017-11-15 03:18 PM | Reply

Can it be used as voter ID in every state?
Is it free?
Is it a "shall issue" document?
Then i'm okay with it.

#25 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-15 03:47 PM | Reply

"We would just be replacing one federal ID number, SSN, with another, without changing any of the widely deployed infrastructure that uses it."

That wouldn't change anything.

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-15 03:49 PM | Reply

"You've got a solution to a problem that doesn't need solving."

A Federal ID solves the problem of voter ID.
Which is a bad thing for Republicans.
That's a problem they need to keep likely Democrat voters from voting.

#27 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-15 03:50 PM | Reply

Like I said, a fix for non existent problems

#28 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-15 04:03 PM | Reply

Well, it's a fix for a problem the GOP doesn't want fixed.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-15 04:04 PM | Reply

They'd rather "fix" it fifty different ways, using the laboratories of democracy to find the most effective ways to legally disenfranchise people.

#30 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-15 04:05 PM | Reply

So you're okay with them "fixing" it at a national level, as long as its free and shall issue.

Yeah, pass. States can make their own voting rules, and fake ID's just aren't a problem worth addressing.

#31 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-15 04:51 PM | Reply

As for "free" and "shall issue", Texas did that. It also created a mobile unit that went around giving out free IDs, particularly in rural areas. It mandated extra hours at DMVs for people that couldn't otherwise make it due to their work schedule. Texas DMVs are among the most modern in the US and extremely fast, no processing bottleneck.

It was still ruled that it disenfranchised people.

Give that the state did all of this and still failed, national ID will never survive judicial review.

#32 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-15 05:16 PM | Reply

"It was still ruled that it disenfranchised people."

Good.

Are you actually playing dumb on why conservatives oppose national ID?

"Give that the state did all of this and still failed, national ID will never survive judicial review."

Sure it will. What's this thing called a "passport?"

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-15 05:22 PM | Reply

#9: Whaaaat? Nothing prophesied 2000 years ago could never really happen in a modern educated society, right?

#10 | Posted by Daniel

Doesn't anyone else remember when a Federal ID card was a sign of the end of days and the predicted Mark of the Beast?

Is the national ID card the next step toward the imposition of the biblical "mark of the beast" Christians believe will be required to buy and sell during the Last Days?

That's the contention of a growing group of believers who are working to turn back the approval of the Real ID Act by Congress last year. Public Law 109-13 requires the national ID portion of the plan go into effect by May 2008.

"There is a prophecy in the Bible that foretells a time when every person will be required to have a mark or a number, without which he or she will not be able to participate in the economy," states the Christian website NoNationalID.com. "The prophecy is 2,000 years old, but it has been impossible for it to come to pass until now. With the invention of the computer and the Internet, this prophecy of buying and selling, using a number, can now be implemented at any time. Has the time for the fulfillment of this prophecy arrived?"

Read more at www.wnd.com

www.wnd.com

That was when True Believers were dead set against it.

Of course, that was before they realized they maybe could use it to disenfranchise some poor old colored Democratic voters.

Fun times!

#34 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-11-15 05:27 PM | Reply

"There is a prophecy in the Bible that foretells a time when every person will be required to have a mark or a number, without which he or she will not be able to participate in the economy,"

This prophecy is proven true every time a Right-winger asks "You have to have an ID to cash your welfare check, so why can't you get one to vote?"

#35 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-15 05:29 PM | Reply

What's this thing called a "passport?"

#33 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2017-11-15 05:22 PM | FLAG:

Optional. Only required for travel. Not a consolidated ID required for voting, but you know that. Which one of us is supposed to be playing dumb here? or are we trying to outdumb each other?

#36 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-16 07:33 AM | Reply

Are you actually playing dumb on why conservatives oppose national ID?

If you recall, the last person to advocate national ID in any way was Bush in 2005. The RealID Act set a national standard, but that's all.

The opposition to a national ID comes from a couple of groups, but almost all of the opposition from all sides argues against national ID for the exact same reason - privacy.

On the LEFT, the ACLU is vehemently against them because it makes citizens easier to track and monitor (right to privacy), and that in doing so the government could use the information to harass "minorities". Along those lines, the left also attributed such ideas as a national ID and national database as being fascist and a slippery slope to genocide. More recent arguments by the left have been focused on disenfranchising minorities and calling issuance of a national ID an attack on illegal aliens, but that is just a tailoring of the original complaint.

In the CENTER, the libertarians (I know, right?) opposed national ID for very much the same reason as the ACLU and the left (privacy) but also because it was government overreach not addressed in the Constitution and could be used to arbitrarily limit access to services. They are also vehemently opposed to a national biometric database.

On the RIGHT, the loony evangelicals associated a national ID with "end times", but they were fringe kooks and those who pander to fringe kooks.

#37 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-11-16 10:36 AM | Reply

I already have two. passport and TWIC card.

#38 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2017-11-16 02:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

i'm for abolishing almost everything about separate sovereigns governing planet earth, but why is it needed at this time and will it help accomplish the afore expressed ideal?

i don't see it.

#39 | Posted by ichiro at 2017-11-16 09:47 PM | Reply

#37 | POSTED BY MUSTANG

Opposed because it makes citizens easier to track and monitor (right to privacy). Yes

Possible government overreach. Yes

Opposed to a national biometric database. Yes

Sprinkle in a little "end of times" just in case. (scientists are saying it's coming climate change and all). Yes

#40 | Posted by PinkyanTheBrain at 2017-11-16 11:42 PM | Reply

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