Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, November 07, 2017

In hot STEM fields like computer science, which serve as talent pipelines for the likes of Google, Amazon, Facebook and Microsoft, about 64 percent of doctoral candidates and almost 68 percent in master's programs last year were international students, according to an annual survey of American and Canadian universities by the Computing Research Association. In comparison, only about 9 percent of undergraduates in computer science were international students (perhaps, deans posit, because families are nervous about sending offspring who are barely adults across the ocean to study).

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If our country won't properly fund and focus on education at the elementary and high school level, this is the outcome.

And this is squarely on Republicans slashing funding in their states.

Comments

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BS Sycophant,

Most states have "education" lotteries and send most that money on bloated administrations.

Add to that students going for the liberal arts costing $100K for a degree, they are taking the path of least resistance. Instead of getting ready for an accountable grown life, they are squeezing as much as they can out of no responsibility living, and when it comes time to be an adult, they cant make a living because they got a "feelings" degree..

#1 | Posted by boaz at 2017-11-06 10:53 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

BS Sycophant,
Most states have "education" lotteries and send most that money on bloated administrations.
Add to that students going for the liberal arts costing $100K for a degree, they are taking the path of least resistance. Instead of getting ready for an accountable grown life, they are squeezing as much as they can out of no responsibility living, and when it comes time to be an adult, they cant make a living because they got a "feelings" degree..

#1 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Since reading comprehension is such a difficult issue for you.... And Google is too difficult for you to use...

Most states, Republican run mainly, have been cutting funding for quite a long time to education K-12. It is drastically underfunded in most states.

The "liberal arts" college thing has literally NOTHING to do with this article. Great deflection though.

Boaz, I have to ask. Have you ever set foot on a college campus?

#2 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-11-06 10:57 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I can tell you from personal experience, because I am currently a college student, for the second time in my life, that the kids coming out of high school right now are not educated. I would describe their educational level at about the 6th grade.

I talk to students my own age and they have read the important literatures of the past. The high school students now have not.

In short, the reason American students are not in those advanced programs is because they are not competent to be in them.

#3 | Posted by kudzu at 2017-11-06 11:28 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The "liberal arts" college thing has literally NOTHING to do with this article.

The article is bemoaning how many Americans aren't in Graduate and undergraduate schools now. I spoke directly to that. You went on a rant about K-12.

Are you drunk this early?

Boaz, I have to ask. Have you ever set foot on a college campus?

As usual, the liberal tries to demean someone who gives a competent answer that doesn't align with their values...

And yes, I have been on many college campuses in the course of being awarded my AA, BA, and two MS's. Like Kudzu, I'm currently in a master's graduate certificate course as well..

Good enough for you?

#4 | Posted by boaz at 2017-11-06 11:52 AM | Reply

Good enough for you?

#4 | Posted by boaz at 2017

Yes. But you should have more respect for Liberal Arts, if the goal is to be educated rather than simply trained.

#5 | Posted by Zed at 2017-11-06 12:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

No education is wasted.

#6 | Posted by Zed at 2017-11-06 12:03 PM | Reply

The article is bemoaning how many Americans aren't in Graduate and undergraduate schools now. I spoke directly to that. You went on a rant about K-12.
Are you drunk this early?
As usual, the liberal tries to demean someone who gives a competent answer that doesn't align with their values...
And yes, I have been on many college campuses in the course of being awarded my AA, BA, and two MS's. Like Kudzu, I'm currently in a master's graduate certificate course as well..
Good enough for you?

#4 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Not even close to good enough. If you had been on campus recently, you'd know how poorly educated students are coming out of high school these days. You'd know how underfunded high schools are.

They choose liberal arts degrees because there is zip for access to other types of programs in high school or the programs are simply far too hard in college.

Face it, we don't spend nearly enough to educate our students in K-12. They aren't ready for college. And they sure as hell aren't ready for masters programs.

#7 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-11-06 03:43 PM | Reply

I can't speak for anywhere but where I live. But our high schools have excellent STEM programs. I have encouraged both of my daughters from a young age to study and enjoy math in school. It is paying off for my older daughter as she is enrolled in a math and science magnet program in high school and getting great grades as well.

STEM programs are available, at least in my community, but if you do not instill an interest of science and math from an early age no kid is going to chose that path later on. I don't blame the children for this, because it is mostly apathy and poor math skills from the parents. I believe or society, or at least a portion of it holds any technical knowledge in disdain.

#8 | Posted by schmanch at 2017-11-06 04:01 PM | Reply

I believe the article is being misrepresented.

It says Americans don't need graduate degrees to get good jobs, so they don't bother.

#9 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-11-06 04:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Face it, we don't spend nearly enough to educate our students in K-12. They aren't ready for college. And they sure as hell aren't ready for masters programs.

#7 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT

This is a fact! I spoke to one administrator at school when i was thinking about going back (after being out for 35 years). Colleges nowadays offer free remedial courses in math, english, etc... She told me that you would be shocked to know how many kids simply have to take these remedial courses just to be able to pass college math and english 101.

She told me the problem in High School is that the teachers cannot teach and help the bright kids, they have to teach down to the lowest common denominator.

#10 | Posted by kudzu at 2017-11-07 08:45 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

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I talk to students my own age and they have read the important literatures of the past. The high school students now have not.

I think that problem is unimportant. Whether a new college student has read centuries-old classics or not is less relevant than whether she's prepared for college-level math, science and the like. Students in college can catch up on the classics easily in a good English program. They can't catch up on advanced calculus.

#11 | Posted by rcade at 2017-11-07 09:31 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Republicans want to move to private schools. If you want to have educated children, then you must pay for them to be educated.

#12 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-11-07 10:33 AM | Reply

I'm paying for the education specifically because of public school Republicans. The local district hit us with a billion dollar bond bloated with football pork, as a not-disguised-what-so-ever handout to the guy that owns the construction company that builds the facilities and bankrolls the school board elections. Can't trust that kind of leadership, better to eat the taxes and pay for quality separately.

#13 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-07 01:45 PM | Reply

That same leadership also despises charter schools and it's being forced on them by the state. Republican vs Republican.

#14 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-07 01:46 PM | Reply

I believe the article is being misrepresented.
It says Americans don't need graduate degrees to get good jobs, so they don't bother.

#9 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

Are you trying to be funny? That's one of the huge problems in America...getting a good job is tougher than ever.

#15 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-11-07 01:54 PM | Reply

Republicans want to move to private schools. If you want to have educated children, then you must pay for them to be educated.

#12 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

So rich kids can get educated but screw the middle class and everyone below?

The issue is we have been sucking funds out of education for decades. And its come full circle.

And now with PeeTUS in office, its getting worse even faster.

#16 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-11-07 01:55 PM | Reply

#14 | Posted by sitzkrieg I thought the opposition to charter schools was primarily a NEA/Democrat thing.

#17 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-07 01:56 PM | Reply

This is a fact!

#10 | POSTED BY KUDZU AT 2017-11-07 08:45 AM | FLAG:

It's part of a fact. Total spending per student is way up over where it used to be. From just over $5k in the early 90s to between $11k to $11.5k as of 2014. Adjusted for inflation, the total spending growth is about 17%. Couple this with easily available student loans, and there's more spending on education than at any point in US history. It seems we have a greater cultural problem that rewards short term, memorization based test results. That's fixable even if spending actually did decrease significantly over a decade.

#18 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-07 02:03 PM | Reply

#14 | Posted by sitzkrieg I thought the opposition to charter schools was primarily a NEA/Democrat thing.

#17 | POSTED BY DOCNJO AT 2017-11-07 01:56 PM | FLAG:

No, everybody engages in job protectionism, even people that vote against it at the Federal level.

#19 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-07 02:03 PM | Reply

What I find interesting is back when, before education became a political issue, the quality of education was better. A High School grad in 1965 is equivalent to a collage sophomore now. Back when I started, remedial subjects were not taught in a university setting. It seems that only Jews and Asians are driven to achieve educationally.

#20 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-07 02:04 PM | Reply

"before education became a political issue, the quality of education was better"

Back before Brown v. Board of Education, right?

(Hint: Education has always been a political issue.)

#21 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 02:08 PM | Reply

In the end, it doesn't matter how many degrees you take, chances are within a couple of years you'll get home after your shift, drink as much as possible while still being able to function the next day, and sit there wondering what the hell went wrong. Occasionally, tears will well up in your glazed-over eyes while staring at the TV and you'll say to yourself, "It wasn't supposed to be this way." After many years, you'll eventually snap out of it and realize what Red Forman said was true:

Welcome to reality. It's why they call it "work" and not "happy-play-fun-time."

--Red Forman, That 70s Show

#22 | Posted by madscientist at 2017-11-07 02:16 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Boaz, I have to ask. Have you ever set foot on a college campus?
#2 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT

The larger UC schools have dozens of people like Boaz on them. They sneak in with signs that say "the end is near!" while harassing professors passing by about indoctrination of children.

As others have stated, the problem we have is that our children are unprepared for high-level math or even simple logic; meaning no programming.

#23 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-11-07 02:28 PM | Reply

Two reasons

1. STEM jobs tend to last only about 5 years before you are laid off and replaced by a H1B. Very few kids are going STEM because they saw what happened to their parents or the parents have steered them away from it.

2. Most grads are foreign students who became TA's. Most can't speak English very well and have no patience or teaching skills. A few years ago, I had a Java Class that was all Indian. I was the only American student. The TA thought it would be better if he taught the class in Hindi.

Had to drop the class.

As an Electrical Engineer, I have had the pleasure of being laid off more times than I could count. After a few months I would be re-hired because things didn't work out with the H1B crew that replace me.

I don't recommend being an EE to anyone. I think you'll find most EE's won't recommend being an EE to their kids.

#24 | Posted by Pegasus at 2017-11-07 02:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Are you trying to be funny? That's one of the huge problems in America...getting a good job is tougher than ever."

Not for educated workers...in fact salaries continue to increase for skilled workers.

One of the largest contributors to income inequality is that the demand for educated workers means that employers need to pay them more. Until the late 1970s, having a degree would have earned you more, statistically, but not much more. Now having a college degree will earn you roughly double what you could expect to earn with a high school degree.

#25 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 03:04 PM | Reply

"Not for educated workers...in fact salaries continue to increase for skilled workers."

Right, it's merely the other 80%, the unskilled workers, the poorly educated, who are having a hard time finding good job.

4 in 5 workers have seen wages and benefits go stagnant.

Since 1975, the top 1 on 5 have taken home practically all the gains in household income.

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 03:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I COMPLETELY agree with this: "If our country won't properly fund and focus on education at the elementary and high school level, this is the outcome." - Posted by Sycophant

It is true we don't put enough emphasis on it period. ESPECIALLY the Right and Red States. Don't get me wrong liberals don't have everything about education right by any means but the right is doing everything they can to destroy public education and replace it with religious nuttery while other countries are making huge investments in it. And I am sorry but most home schooling is a joke. That leaves fewer students ready for college and fewer seeing the need for a higher education at all and this when today a bachelor's degree is coming close to where a high school diploma was 30 years ago when getting a job and then they bitz and moan about the declining white middle class.

The OTHER little bit is the COST of that education with NO guarantees on employability after - a LOT of people won't hire you with an advanced degree (especially a doctorate) so you could spend well north of 100k on an advanced degree and be working at Walmart or worse. The 2008-2009 calamity left a lot of highly educated people jobless with no prospects because nobody would hire them due to prejudices - especially older people with advanced degrees. They were "overqualified" and people didn't want to "pay" them what they were worth so they either feared them job jumping or simply wanted young bloods they felt they could grind into dust. Yes this was happening to a lot of STEM people and in particular in the Bay. The nifty thing about a lot of these foreign students is they pay out of state tuition usually and their government of rich parents foot the bill here and Universities really like that... The local university attracts a lot of Saudis as undergrads. They are all being paid for by the Saudi Government.

#27 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2017-11-07 03:44 PM | Reply

#25 | Posted by madbomber

LMAO. There is a relatively small subset that double is true for. We have degreed people working for peanuts here and I don't mean useless degrees. My wife works for a major retailer and they hire people with bachelors all the time @~$10/hour to work the floor.

#28 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2017-11-07 03:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Right, it's merely the other 80%, the unskilled workers, the poorly educated, who are having a hard time finding good job."

Right...because they're unskilled and poorly educated. They've got nothing of value to sell.

"4 in 5 workers have seen wages and benefits go stagnant."

Actually, no. Maybe one in five has seen wages go stagnant. Two in five if you're being generous. But no quintile is doing statistically worse than they were 70 years ago, and the top three at least are doing quite a bit better.

"Since 1975, the top 1 on 5 have taken home practically all the gains in household income."

So the top 20% of income earners. Given that around 35% of USans have college degrees, this kinda makes sense.

#29 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 03:58 PM | Reply

"LMAO. There is a relatively small subset that double is true for. We have degreed people working for peanuts here and I don't mean useless degrees."

Yeah. My wife has a marketing degree and makes about $8K a year as a fitness instructor.

As a side, the Economists had an article about eight years ago detailing the value of specific degrees. It found that, statistically, there are some degrees that will earn you less than if you hadn't gone to college at all.

And these stats are somewhat misleading. The wealthiest people I know did not go to college. They started businesses. And employed people with degrees to support those areas where they were weak, like law, accounting, engineering, etc.

#30 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 04:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Now having a college degree will earn you roughly double what you could expect to earn with a high school degree."

Which is why there's a student loan bubble.

This economy makes us rats on a sinking ship trying to keep our heads above the water line.

#31 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:03 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"But no quintile is doing statistically worse than they were 70 years ago"

Nobody from 70 years ago is still working today.

Blacks aren't a quintile, but they are doing worse than in 1975.

Relative to the top quintile, all the other quintiles are doing worse than in 1975.

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:07 PM | Reply

"Relative to the top quintile, all the other quintiles are doing worse than in 1975."

Which quintiles are earning less today in adjusted dollars than they were in 1975? I'll give you a few minutes to formulate an answer.

#33 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 04:10 PM | Reply

What I find interesting is back when, before education became a political issue, the quality of education was better. A High School grad in 1965 is equivalent to a collage sophomore now. Back when I started, remedial subjects were not taught in a university setting. It seems that only Jews and Asians are driven to achieve educationally.

#20 | POSTED BY DOCNJO

Well when the state that dominates textbooks wants to remove Evolution and other basic concepts in favor of Jesus and football, we tend to have these issues. It gets compounded when people decide we are paying teachers too much and tax breaks are more important than having decent teachers, strong academic programs, and less than 30 kids in a classroom.

#34 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-11-07 04:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"This economy makes us rats on a sinking ship trying to keep our heads above the water line."

By this economy...I think you mean "us."

Nobody is going to willingly provide you the standard of living you feel you deserve, simply because you feel yourself to be worthy of it.

#35 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 04:11 PM | Reply

"Nobody is going to willingly provide you the standard of living you feel you deserve, simply because you feel yourself to be worthy of it."

Oh, but they are. I think I deserve a right to free speech. And it gets provided. How about that!

#36 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:14 PM | Reply

"Well when the state that dominates textbooks wants to remove Evolution and other basic concepts in favor of Jesus and football, we tend to have these issues. It gets compounded when people decide we are paying teachers too much and tax breaks are more important than having decent teachers, strong academic programs, and less than 30 kids in a classroom."

I think you're both wrong. What is different now is expectations. I live in Louisiana, with some of the worst schools in the nation. It's still possible to get a good education, but it's largely based on parental involvement.

An even better example is Baltimore, MD, which has some of the most abysmal schools in the country...even while spending as much money per student as nearby Fairfax County, which is regarded as having some of the best.

Throwing money at a non-monetary problem isn't going to produce meaningful results.

#37 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 04:16 PM | Reply

"By this economy...I think you mean "us."

Put down the bong. I mean the American economy. Not us. We're not in control. We didn't craft the policies that got us here. We didn't decide income from investment should be tax-favored over income from labor. We didn't keep the minimum wage flat for a decade.

#38 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:17 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"An even better example is Baltimore, MD"

Most everything is better in Fairfax than Baltimore.

Why on Earth would you expect schools to be different???

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:19 PM | Reply

"It's still possible to get a good education, but it's largely based on parental involvement."

If that were for sale, we would have our education problem solved.

But it's not. So we can blame the victims for having one ------ parent and one missing one.

Still doesn't make the economy any better for 4 in 5 households.

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:22 PM | Reply

21 | Posted by snoofy, Actually I lived and went to school through the era of forced busing in the late 60s and early 70s, Brown was ruled on in the early 1950s, Trueman sent the Army in to enforce it in Little Rock. The issue I have is we are spending twice what we did, adjusted for inflation and have much less to show for it. Yet the NEA says we need more money for education. Maybe we need better teachers. Maybe we need curriculum built around skills. Maybe we need to fire many of the "Administrators" and streamline the bureaucracy. Maybe we should make schools smaller and more neighborhood centered, especially in elementary schools. Maybe we should fire teachers who can not teach or are not motivated to do so.

#41 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-07 04:24 PM | Reply

"Throwing money at a non-monetary problem isn't going to produce meaningful results."

So, that's a no to vouchers? ;)

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:24 PM | Reply

"Nobody is going to willingly provide you the standard of living you feel you deserve, simply because you feel yourself to be worthy of it."

I think all Americans deserve a quality K-12 education.

It seems to me like they are indeed going to provide that in Fairfax, but not in Baltimore.

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:29 PM | Reply

#40 | Posted by snoofy If you do three things you will probity not be poor. 1) Finish high school. 2) Don't have babies before you are married. 3) Do not commit crimes. Honestly in the vast majority of time, that works. Add to that don't drink or do drugs and it is almost a guarantee.

#44 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-07 04:29 PM | Reply

"The issue I have is we are spending twice what we did, adjusted for inflation and have much less to show for it."

In what ways do we have less to show for it?

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:30 PM | Reply

"Put down the bong. I mean the American economy. Not us. We're not in control."

Yeah Snoofy, technically it's the collective habits of society that shape the economy. Day one in ECON 101, the lesson starts by explaining that Economics is the study of how society satisfies infinite wants with finite recourses. In fact it's policy that has limited inequality and altered distribution trends. In the absence of policy, in a freer market, disparity would be even more pronounced.

By the way, you took to long answering the question as to which quintiles are earning less today in adjusted dollars than they were in 1975, so I'll answer for you. The answer is most likely none. Maybe the bottom quintile...it's too close to call.

Hell, US median household income just hit an all-time high.

#46 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 04:33 PM | Reply

"If you do three things you will probity not be poor."

It might keep you above the Federal poverty level, which is $12,060 plus $4180 per child dependent.

Go live on a thousand bucks a month gross for rent bills food etc and tell me if you're poor or not.

#47 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:34 PM | Reply

"Still doesn't make the economy any better for 4 in 5 households."

I agree. It was a more favorable business environment that has driven the increase in adjusted incomes for ALL quintiles.

Maybe Trump can even be credited for the record high in household incomes that was reached last month.

#48 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 04:34 PM | Reply

"Go live on a thousand bucks a month gross for rent bills food etc and tell me if you're poor or not."

That's more than median global household income.

#49 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 04:36 PM | Reply

"Hell, US median household income just hit an all-time high."

Indeed, as the top tier moves dramatically upward, it naturally drags the median with it.

Listen, do you actually think the "Since 1975" statement is inaccurate? It's not like I came up with it. I'm merely citing the CIA World Factbook.

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:37 PM | Reply

"That's more than median global household income."

Are the goalposts heavy, when you carry them around the world like that?

#51 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Yeah Snoofy, technically it's the collective habits of society that shape the economy."

Enough of your lies and --------.

Interest rates are not a habit.
Monetary policy is not a habit.
Tax policy is not a habit.
Minimum wage is not a habit.
Trade policy is not a habit.
Immigration policy is not a habit.

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 04:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

#45 | Posted by snoofy Academic achievement, or is that too basic. Simple skills like reading comprehension, math skills and a knowledge of basic civics.

#53 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-07 04:49 PM | Reply

#47 | Posted by snoofy, I have, and provided for 4 kids while doing it. Lots of searching through second hand stores for cloths, actual cooking in the kitchen, Learning hundreds of ways to prepare hamburger and chicken, bunk beds, driving old beaters, living the American dream.

#54 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-07 04:56 PM | Reply

"Listen, do you actually think the "Since 1975" statement is inaccurate?"

Do you actually think the All quintiles statement is inaccurate?

1. "Enough of your lies and --------."

1a. "Interest rates are not a habit."

And what do you think interest rates would look like without the government to manipulate them? Do you think they would somehow favor parties that are currently not favored?

1b. "Monetary policy is not a habit."

Monetary policy smoothes out the business cycle. Right or wrong, it prevents the large variances we've seen in places like Argentina.

1c. " Tax policy is not a habit."

And just like interest rates, the absence of a tax policy is not going to result in lower inequality, it's going to exacerbate it. Same with everything else you mentioned.

I'm not sure if your lack of a formal economic education has left you clueless on economics, but it's policy that has reduced all this ---- that you complain about. Left to it's won devices, society would almost certainly produce a far more inequitable outcome. I'm not sure how you could argue otherwise. And even now, no one stops you from giving money to the poor, or paying more for somethin made in the US so that an unskilled worker can earn a high income, or paying for someone else's medical bills. The fact is you don't want to spend money on those things anymore than I do...even if you do feel that others should be forced to.

#55 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 05:07 PM | Reply

"#47 | Posted by snoofy, I have, and provided for 4 kids while doing it. Lots of searching through second hand stores for cloths, actual cooking in the kitchen, Learning hundreds of ways to prepare hamburger and chicken, bunk beds, driving old beaters, living the American dream."

Dude,

How did you afford to buy the latest phone? What about paying for a coffee habit? And Avocado toast...it ain't cheap. And of course pot. You didn't have to give up pot did you?

You're an object of pity doc...but understand that ultimately it's rich people that are to blame for your predicament.

#56 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 05:09 PM | Reply

#56 | Posted by madbomber, Actually I never bought coffee in a Starbucks, until 1995, and it wasn't worth the 3.50 I paid and I never went back. I didn't had a cell phone until 2002, and the quality of my life actually was diminished. I was in the Army, so a lush habit like weed wasn't in the interest of my family. No I don't blame rich people for my situation.

#57 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-07 05:21 PM | Reply

I was being a smartass.

If you haven't noticed, it annoys Snoofy that reality doesn't play out like a Howard Zinn narrative.

...And you must have been in the Army before they started throwing around Blackberry's. I still have nightmares about that damn thing.

#58 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 05:26 PM | Reply

"And what do you think interest rates would look like without the government to manipulate them?"

What does it matter? We live in the world where government does manipulate interest rates and all the other things I listed.

Reality based discussions are too much for you to handle.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 05:36 PM | Reply

"I have, and provided for 4 kids while doing it."

I thought you joined the military as a young man. They pay more than that.

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 05:37 PM | Reply

#58 | Posted by madbomber No offense taken, At Fort Sill I got the job of trying to get soldier's finances straight when they were screwed up. I would look in the cars of the individuals seeking assistance for bills and without exception they would have fast food trash in the back seat. Honestly for the price of a burger, fries and large coke, I can feed a family of four dinner. Remember, I do not buy prepared food beyond canned veggies. The first millionaire I actually knew personally said "Take care of your pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves". The average person will make more than two million in their life time in today's dollars, you can save or be poor.

#61 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-07 05:42 PM | Reply

Yawn...

Kids, stay away from drugs and STEM... unless you want a miserable life of constant unemployment and layoffs.

Ask any member of the IEEE.

Every EE I know went on to get an MBA and either became a stockbroker or a dentist.

All were replaced with Chinese or Indian H1B's.

#62 | Posted by Pegasus at 2017-11-07 06:06 PM | Reply

"The first millionaire I actually knew personally said "Take care of your pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves".

No doubt.

Hard for a black household with six pennies to the white household dollar, though.

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 06:10 PM | Reply

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#64 | Posted by Pegasus at 2017-11-07 06:18 PM | Reply

"Which quintiles are earning less today in adjusted dollars than they were in 1975? "

Relative to what they were earning compared to the top quintile in 1975?
All of them.

#65 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 07:38 PM | Reply

I believe the article is being misrepresented.
It says Americans don't need graduate degrees to get good jobs, so they don't bother.
#9 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER
Are you trying to be funny? That's one of the huge problems in America...getting a good job is tougher than ever.

#15 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT AT 2017-11-07 01:54 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Fta:

Many factors contribute to the gap, but a major one is the booming job market in technology. For the most part, Americans don't see the need for an advanced degree when there are so many professional opportunities waiting for them. For some, the price is just too high when they have so much student debt already.

"You can believe that U.S. bachelor's students, if they're good, can go get a job at Microsoft or Google with a bachelor's degree," said Edward D. Lazowska, a professor of computer science at the University of Washington.

Hadi Partovi, a tech investor, received his master's in computer science from Harvard in the 1990s. His roommate did not. They both got job offers from the same company. "Master's grads are valued more, but not enough more for American students to get a master's degree," said Mr. Partovi, a founder of Code.org, a nonprofit that promotes computer science in grade school and high school.

#66 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-11-07 07:56 PM | Reply

High School grad in 1965 is equivalent to a collage sophomore now.

#20 | POSTED BY DOCNJO AT 2017-11-07 02:04 PM | REPLY

High School is what you make of it. In mine, in the late 90s, there were many Honors and College Prep classes. If you didn't do those, you weren't prepared for college classes. If you did, you were. The vast majority did not, only the top 2% of students, at best. No more memorization, no more multiple choice, pretty much all essay based. This hasn't changed at all in my district.

#67 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-07 08:38 PM | Reply

"What does it matter? We live in the world where government does manipulate interest rates and all the other things I listed."

I guess we also live in a world where you know you're full of ----...and are therefore unable to provide an honest answer. I'm actually kind of impressed. I'm getting the impression you're not as stupid as you may appear...you've just finally realized that what is and what you think should be are two very different things.

#68 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 10:02 PM | Reply

"Relative to what they were earning compared to the top quintile in 1975? All of them."

Just to be clear, you're saying all quintiles are doing worse today than they were in 1975...right?

Do you think these workers would prefer to go back to the 1975 economic snapshot? Would you?

Nevermind...I'd need to ask a worker this question.

#69 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 10:07 PM | Reply

"Do you think these workers would prefer to go back to the 1975 economic snapshot?"

Do we get to go back to the 1975 level of debt too?
JeffJ this is your chance to say you wouldn't; that all that debt talk of yours is just a smokescreen.

#70 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-07 10:33 PM | Reply

Who's we?

At what point have you ever carried any sort of social responsibility...for debt or anything else?

Maybe you can chime in once you become a stakeholder. Until then, you're about as relevant as one of Putin's operatives.

#71 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-07 10:47 PM | Reply

Fta:
Many factors contribute to the gap, but a major one is the booming job market in technology. For the most part, Americans don't see the need for an advanced degree when there are so many professional opportunities waiting for them. For some, the price is just too high when they have so much student debt already.
"You can believe that U.S. bachelor's students, if they're good, can go get a job at Microsoft or Google with a bachelor's degree," said Edward D. Lazowska, a professor of computer science at the University of Washington.
Hadi Partovi, a tech investor, received his master's in computer science from Harvard in the 1990s. His roommate did not. They both got job offers from the same company. "Master's grads are valued more, but not enough more for American students to get a master's degree," said Mr. Partovi, a founder of Code.org, a nonprofit that promotes computer science in grade school and high school.

#66 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

Stories are nice but the numbers paint a very different picture of high paying jobs going to foreign citizens because Americans aren't educated enough to take them.

#72 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-11-08 01:30 AM | Reply

My original comment was accurate. This article is not describing a poor job market, it's describing one full of opportunities for Americans and hurdles for foreigners trying to find work here.

#73 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-11-08 06:36 AM | Reply

The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

www.forbes.com

#74 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-11-08 07:03 AM | Reply

"Stories are nice but the numbers paint a very different picture of high paying jobs going to foreign citizens because Americans aren't educated enough to take them."

Totally true.

There are a reason that more and more doctors are overseas imports. Becoming a doctor provides a great income, but so do many other professions that don't require sacrificing 12 years of your life and half a million dollars.

#75 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-08 09:15 AM | Reply

..but so do many other professions that don't require sacrificing 12 years of your life and half a million dollars.

That's only in America

In India you can go directly to a Medical college after you graduate high school and pass the NEET exam.

If your score is high enough you can go to a state run school for free.

If not then you got to a Private Medical via a "donor" chair program - basically you pay for the spot - your NEET exam score doesn't matter.

3 years then 1 year residency. In the state school you do 30 hour tours with a 2 hour sleep breaks and you get paid a small salary.

In private medical school you do your residency at the attached private "hospital" doing 8 hour a day tours but YOU pay the hospital.

Quite a few rich Americans have gotten their medical degrees through option number 2 - so much so that the Indian Government is trying to change the program to stop it.

With a lot of push back from these legal medical diploma mills. Nearly all the graduates return to America to practice medicine.

Cost 4 years and about 50k

#76 | Posted by Pegasus at 2017-11-08 11:30 AM | Reply

"At what point have you ever carried any sort of social responsibility...for debt or anything else?"

How about when I swore the Oath of Office?

At what point does a (adult) person have no social responsibility?

How is the notion of "social responsibility" a concept you buy into in the first place? You're a believer in Voluntaryism, meaning people don't owe society anything unless they agree that they do. You reject the Social Contract, for example. You believe government authority isn't derived from the consent of the governed, but simply by guns and jackboots.

It's odd you chose to swear an oath and give your productive years to such a government, but hey, it's a free country! (You also don't believe it's a free country, but no matter.)

#77 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-08 04:19 PM | Reply

They aren't ready for college.

I'm curious how much of this is being driven by the easy access to anything all the time.

There wasn't ever a time when the current students had to really think about something or spend a lot of time with a body of material to find what they were looking for.

Now you input the correct keywords, hit enter and exactly what you want is served to you.

And they sure as hell aren't ready for masters programs.

Out of high school? They shouldn't be...

#78 | Posted by jpw at 2017-11-08 04:32 PM | Reply

Tuition-Free Online Public Schools
#64 | POSTED BY PEGASUS

All the negatives of a public school and none of the positives. All for the same price as public school + internet access.

#79 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-11-08 04:52 PM | Reply

The republicans have spent 40 years wrecking public education. Now rather than seeing the results of their work and realizing we need to reverse their destructive efforts, they see it as a reason to do further damage

#80 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-11-08 04:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

There wasn't ever a time when the current students had to really think about something or spend a lot of time with a body of material to find what they were looking for.

Not since the 70s, when students didn't have laptops, smartphones, google, etc. Looking through books, periodicals, newspaper archives on microfiche, etc., pouring over text in the library and making notes with pen and paper was how it was done for centuries. Too bad the current generation will never experience that kind of intellectual rigor.

#81 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2017-11-08 05:25 PM | Reply

"How is the notion of "social responsibility" a concept you buy into in the first place?"

Would you disagree with the notion that when society provides something for you, you owe them something in return?

I'm pretty staunchly Libertarian on most things, but I am willing to compromise on pretty much everything. Provided that it's supported by social responsibility. For instance, I would support state-funded higher education. The government pays for tuition, and in return, the student is obligated to perform a service to society. The other thing I think we should look at is allowing people, particularly low income people, to commit time rather than taxes to cover their share of the debt to society. So maybe instead of getting your healthcare for free, you spend a certain amount of hours per week engaged in some activity that contributes to the public good.

#82 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-08 06:48 PM | Reply

The student is obligated to perform a service to society.
#82 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Paying taxes and competing honestly in the economy is that service.

#83 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-11-08 07:08 PM | Reply

"Would you disagree with the notion that when society provides something for you, you owe them something in return?"

I expect that you would.
How are we free if we are tied up in all these obligations?

#84 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-08 07:23 PM | Reply

Not since the 70s, when students didn't have laptops, smartphones, google, etc. Looking through books, periodicals, newspaper archives on microfiche, etc., pouring over text in the library and making notes with pen and paper was how it was done for centuries. Too bad the current generation will never experience that kind of intellectual rigor.

#81 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

Maybe we should be teaching them how to use slide rules and how to shoe horses, then.

#85 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2017-11-09 07:29 AM | Reply

There is great tragedy in these numbers. Trump is making the matter worse by hiring the incompetent DeVos and cutting educational funding, thereby feeding the false justification for H1-B visas.

Some of the best preparation for a career in mathematics and physics is mastering a musical instrument. For Einstein it was the violin. For Woody Allen it is the clarinet. The contributions to the quality of our lives provided by the likes of the Roger & Hammerstein, Beatles, Hemmingway, Lucas or a hundred other artists you might prefer is an essential part of a rich meaningful life.

Boaz would wish that we all just become cogs in an industrial wheel. That there is no other purpose for education than to make money. ---- you and your childish right wing brain.

#86 | Posted by bayviking at 2017-11-09 08:01 AM | Reply

One of the big problems is what the money is spent on. People oversimplify when they take the total amount spent on"education" and divide by the number of students and then say "we spend more than ever on education"

Money spent educating our students is falling. The places where spending has increased are:

1) Sports: Some high school stadiums rival college stadiums from the 80s

2) Printing and advertising: Our footbal schedules were hand typed and copied on plain paper. Now the schools have full color schedules, posters, and flyers

3) Administration costs: While the right focuses on union teachers making $50K a year they ignore the double digit raises going to administrators who make 6 figures and outnumber the teachers in some districts

4) Private schools: People don't understand there is a multiplier effect when a student goes to a private school. The total cost spent on education as mentioned in the first paragraph includes the cost of building and maintaining the school buildings, transporting students, and all the other associated costs. They take that number and divide by the number of students. When a student leaves for a charter school the school loses 100% of the funds for that student but the costs of the buildings and the maintenance and things that are not directly related to teaching that student in the classroom do not change. So there is a subset of the total costs that is direct education and the entire amount of the voucher is taken from that pool. As a result the amount of funding for direct education per student drops significantly.

#87 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-11-09 10:27 AM | Reply

#87

...Which then causes them to have to reduce "extras" like music and art.

#88 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2017-11-09 10:39 AM | Reply

#87

Did you mean charter schools or private schools...I think they're different.

#89 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-09 12:53 PM | Reply

I mean voucher schools. In our area all charter schools are private

#90 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-11-09 01:04 PM | Reply

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