Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Friday, October 20, 2017

Police in Gainesville, Florida on Thursday arrested three white men in connection to a shooting that took place following a speech by avowed white supremacist Richard Spencer. Tyler Tenbrink, William Fears and Colton Fears -- two of whom police say have known ties to extremist organizations -- are being held in the Alachua County Jail on charges of attempted homicide after allegedly firing on another group of people during a violent encounter shortly after Spencer's speech. According to police, the trio argued with and threatened a group of protestors demonstrating against Spencer, who was addressing a small crowd at the University of Florida Phillips Center for Performing Arts. The men reportedly began threatening to "--- kill" and "shoot" the protestors, before eventually offering the Nazi salute and shouting "Hail Hitler." Police say Tenbrink, a convicted felon, fired the shot.

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"But... but... Mommy, antifa did it, too!" - the usual Nazi Coddling suspects

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-20 01:15 PM | Reply

As a side note, evidently it's legal for convicted felons to own firearms in Florida, or maybe they didn't check up on his background.

#2 | Posted by uncle_meat at 2017-10-20 03:34 PM | Reply

One of our local news stations sent a reporter and camera person to cover this. In fear for their safety they hired security guards to go with them. One of the guards was carrying a gun and was arrested on the spot being a gun free zone and all.

#3 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2017-10-20 03:34 PM | Reply

As a side note, evidently it's legal for convicted felons to own firearms in Florida, or maybe they didn't check up on his background.

They are from out of state.

#4 | Posted by rcade at 2017-10-20 03:49 PM | Reply

Well it couldn't be the nazis' fault. The president told me they're very fine people.

#5 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-10-20 04:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

What kind of loser ------- yells, 'Heil Hitler'? Seriously.

#6 | Posted by moder8 at 2017-10-20 04:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 8

What kind of loser president looks at those loser -------- and says that some are "good people"? The mind boggles.

#7 | Posted by rcade at 2017-10-20 04:25 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 4

Why didn't any police officers kill them? If a black man merely possesses a gun that's reason enough to kill.

#8 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-10-20 04:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"What kind of loser president looks at those loser -------- and says that some are "good people"?"

The kind of President that doesn't want to alienate his base.

It might be different if Roy Moore weren't even more appealing to the GOP base, but that isn't how history played out.

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-20 04:37 PM | Reply

The cops, errr, protesters acted stupidly.

#10 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2017-10-20 04:41 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Calling all -----------.....Where's the good guy with a gun???

#11 | Posted by aborted_monson at 2017-10-20 04:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

11
They were the ones that arrested them, you ------- ------.

#12 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2017-10-20 04:46 PM | Reply

6
Never understood how someone like that hadn't won a Darwin Award already.

#13 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2017-10-20 04:47 PM | Reply

It's good news nobody was killed, and that they arrested the 3 nazi's.

This should help decimate their ranks nationwide by almost 20%.

#14 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-20 04:57 PM | Reply

"This should help decimate their ranks nationwide by almost 20%." - #14 | Posted by proven liar and faux liberal at 2017-10-20 04:57 PM

Whenever someone from the right side of the aisle clutches their pearls over the New Black Panthers I always ask, "Do you mean the one on the left, or the one on the right?"

#15 | Posted by Hans at 2017-10-20 05:00 PM | Reply

Don't forget the one gay Jewish nazi quit the other day, so probably more like 23%.

#16 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2017-10-20 05:00 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

What kind of loser ------- yells, 'Heil Hitler'? Seriously.

#6 | POSTED BY MODER8

Trump Voters.

#18 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-10-20 05:05 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

It's good news nobody was killed, and that they arrested the 3 nazi's.
This should help decimate their ranks nationwide by almost 20%.

#14 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM

Its cute but I think its dangerous to pretend there aren't thousands of these guys and tens of thousands of white supremacists.

#19 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-10-20 05:07 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

Unmasking California's New White Supremacists

www.youtube.com

Racist, Violent, Unpunished: A White Hate Group's Campaign of Menace

They train to fight. They post their beatings online. And so far, they have little reason to fear the authorities.

www.propublica.org

#20 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-10-20 05:33 PM | Reply

This should help decimate their ranks nationwide by almost 20%.

#14 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM

Either you are not very good at math or you are a useful idiot and a tool and purveyor of Russian Fake News.

www.splcenter.org

#21 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-10-20 05:35 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#17 | Posted by SheepleSchism

So let's turn it into a downplaying nazis thread, since hating hillary apparently turns people into nazi sympathizers.

#22 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-10-20 05:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#19 tens of thousands

How many were at the Florida rally? This link doesn't say: www.thedailybeast.com

But it did report this: "One unidentified man wearing red suspenders with a white T-shirt with multiple swastikas would receive a right hook to the jaw from an unidentified black man wearing a green hoodie, a black hat, and black sunglasses. The man with the Nazi T-shirt would be forcefully removed from the area as blood could be seen dripping from his mouth."

Violence is not the solution, or you become one of them. Education is key.

#23 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-20 05:40 PM | Reply

- This should help decimate their ranks nationwide by almost 20%.

There were 300,000 members on StormFront alone when their site was shut down.

Trump Pets minimizing their influence on the nation, what with the alt right and David Duke and Donald Trump having their backs, is just more Nazi Coddling.

Nazi Marchers fired a weapon at a black man and murdered a woman with a car in Charlottesville.

Now more Nazi shooters have attempted murder in Gainesville.

When will some people decide that this kind of violence isn't, "free speech"?

When more people are killed by this same group?

#24 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-20 05:40 PM | Reply

So let's turn it into a downplaying nazis thread
#22 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

I don't believe in rewarding them with the attention they so desperately seek.

Bolster education, publicly ignore them, and increase monitoring by authorities.

You can't shout down an ideology. It doesn't werk.

#25 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-20 05:44 PM | Reply

People who are scoffing about the threat of Nazis in this country should get their heads out. White nationalist, supremacist and Nazi groups are growing into a significant threat.

Even a small group of these white radical types can be a problem, as Oklahoma City showed.

#26 | Posted by rcade at 2017-10-20 05:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

- publicly ignore them

Yeah, that werks so well. Just ask Britain during the Blitz. Or Germans in Germany today.

Appeasement is no solution.

#27 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-20 05:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I don't believe in rewarding them with the attention they so desperately seek.

Bolster education, publicly ignore them, and increase monitoring by authorities.

You can't shout down an ideology. It doesn't werk.

#25 | Posted by SheepleSchism

This isn't about nazis seeking attention.

This is about racists of all kinds feeling safe to come out of the closet because we elected one of them.

This would not be happening under hillary, no matter how much you want to pretend she's as bad as trump.

#28 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-10-20 06:25 PM | Reply

Even a small group of these white radical types can be a problem, as Oklahoma City showed.
#26 | POSTED BY RCADE

Two or three who share any crazy ideology can be dangerous. How do we stamp out nazi ideology?

By shouting them down? By punching them in the face, like the green-hooded counter-protester did in Florida?

Is that what we do? Resort to violence? As far as I can tell, being a nazi or klansman is not unlawful...why is that?

Why not just outlaw these crazy ideologies and imprison anyone who gives a nazi salute? Why can't we do this?

#29 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-20 06:29 PM | Reply

- This is about racists of all kinds

Racism exists worldwide absent of whites and blacks. How does a civilized society go about combating racism?

With violence?

#30 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-20 06:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Here's a good article:

Protester hugs Nazi outside Richard Spencer talk - www.nydailynews.com

The man who hugged a Nazi outside Richard Spencer's speech at the University of Florida on Thursday said, "I could have hit him, I could have hurt him ... but something in me said, ‘You know what? He just needs love.'"

#31 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-20 06:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Racism exists worldwide absent of whites and blacks. How does a civilized society go about combating racism?

With violence?

#30 | Posted by SheepleSchism

Step 1: Don't elect loud n' proud racists.

#32 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-10-20 06:45 PM | Reply

The man who hugged a Nazi outside Richard Spencer's speech at the University of Florida on Thursday said, "I could have hit him, I could have hurt him ... but something in me said, ‘You know what? He just needs love.'"

#31 | Posted by SheepleSchism

I approve of THIS message!

Much better than denying they are a threat.

#33 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-10-20 06:50 PM | Reply

White power Remy!!!

#34 | Posted by fresno500 at 2017-10-20 07:33 PM | Reply

The man who hugged a Nazi outside Richard Spencer's speech at the University of Florida on Thursday said, "I could have hit him, I could have hurt him ... but something in me said, ‘You know what? He just needs love.'"

This isn't a heart-warming story. It's a foolish act that should have gotten the hugger arrested.

Hugging somebody without permission isn't appropriate. It's nicer than punching a Nazi, but it's still an act of battery. He put his hands on the Nazi in a way that could have reasonably been interpreted as a threat.

#35 | Posted by rcade at 2017-10-20 07:50 PM | Reply

"Hugging somebody without permission isn't appropriate."

I hadn't thought of that. So this guy took a real risk doing what he did. Turns out it was the exact right thing to do under the circumstances. And a very brave thing to do.

Especially for a black man.

#36 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-10-20 08:20 PM | Reply

The man who hugged a Nazi outside Richard Spencer's speech at the University of Florida on Thursday said, "I could have hit him, I could have hurt him ... but something in me said, ‘You know what? He just needs love.'"

Nazis are Nazis, they're irredeemable.

He doesn't need love, he needs to renounce the vile nazi ideology and re-join the rest of the civilized world.

This guy doesn't have a clue.

#37 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-20 09:21 PM | Reply

"Violence is not the solution"

You don't buy into the "good guy with a gun" thing?

#38 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-20 09:29 PM | Reply

Or maybe you meant violence isn't the solution, until things get violent.
Then, by all means, fight fire with fire!

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-20 09:30 PM | Reply

What kind of loser ------- yells, 'Heil Hitler'? Seriously.

#6 | POSTED BY MODER8 AT 2017-10-20 04:10 PM

Your average Trump voter/supporter that's who!

#40 | Posted by aborted_monson at 2017-10-21 01:07 AM | Reply

Nazis are not here to debate the merits of genicide they are here to practice it. Last time the West let the Nazis have a running head start and they murdered millions and we had to we bomb Europe back to the Bronze Age to purge the infection. There is once again, a global white supremacist Reich on the rise. Someone will have to fight these terrorist either before or after they set the world on fire again. This is not a speech issue, it's combat. Bourguiosie liberal sensibilities don't know how to process this particular reality, but they are already at war with us.

#41 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 03:40 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

I hadn't thought of that. So this guy took a real risk doing what he did. Turns out it was the exact right thing to do under the circumstances. And a very brave thing to do.

Would you say the same thing if a man hugged a woman without permission? Of course not.

It isn't the "right thing" just because the Nazi didn't push, shove or hit him in response to a perceptibly hostile act.

If you were in a crowd of protesters and counter-protesters and somebody on the other side hugged you, I think you'd be afraid. Most of us would. Some of us would defend ourselves from a possible assault.

If some stranger at a protest hugged me I'd push them away and yell at them to get the hell off me.

#42 | Posted by rcade at 2017-10-21 09:06 AM | Reply

Nazis are not here to debate the merits of genicide they are here to practice it.

agree

Last time the West let the Nazis have a running head start and they murdered millions and we had to we bomb Europe back to the Bronze Age to purge the infection.

agree

There is once again, a global white supremacist Reich on the rise.

mostly agree

Someone will have to fight these terrorist either before or after they set the world on fire again. This is not a speech issue, it's combat. Bourguiosie liberal sensibilities don't know how to process this particular reality, but they are already at war with us.

do not agree -- as far as America is concerned it is about free speech.

Instead of "combat" against speech one doesn't like, wouldn't it be easier and less lethal to simply convince people to vote? I'm all for counter-protesting, but it has to be peaceful -- if it's violent, it's wrong (see MLK) ... and it makes the situation worse.

#43 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 09:59 AM | Reply

I am unconcerned with their words. I am concerned with their violence. They are at war with me and mine. If you don't count yourself among those threatened by Nazi violence, you will learn just as the apathetic learned last time.

#44 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 10:26 AM | Reply

King is misapplied here. Ghandi's method of nonviolent resistance was used successfully in India (and unsuccessfully in South Africa) to petition minority colonial governments to cease the oppression of majority native population. Nazi's are not our government (yet.) They are an international insurgent terrorist army.

These are not demonstrations. They are shows of force. They are coming out in public armed with a variety of weapons in the uniform of a hostile terrorist organization and looking for victims to assault. That is combat. If someone dons he uniform of an enemy combatant they need to be regarded as such. If someone takes off the uniform and lays down their weapons their surrender should be accepted but otherwise eventually, all of us who aren't them will have to fight them, if not now, soon.

#45 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 10:39 AM | Reply

I am unconcerned with their words. I am concerned with their violence. They are at war with me and mine. If you don't count yourself among those threatened by Nazi violence, you will learn just as the apathetic learned last time.

#44 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY A

Wrong

Violent speech is wrong, period, regardless of who the offenders are ...

And hate speech is still hate speech, and it doesn't persuade me at all.

Understanding 'tolerance' has to be either learned or self-taught, and you're failing both tests -- no offense.

If speaking out against nazis isn't enough for you, then you need to convince people to not only vote, but to vote their conscious, their morals, whatever it takes to get their asses to the voting booth.

All that said, using militant-oriented tones as you're using is not helpful.

#46 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 10:58 AM | Reply

I doubt I can help you other than to protect you when you are forced to join the fight. I'm sure I can help you to feel better about it.

There is no such thing as Nazi speech independent of Nazi violence. You don't get to attempt genocide and then say, "we are just talking about it his time." Nazis are an overt and demonstrable threat to person and property. They are the embodiment of violence. This isn't ambiguous.

For those who have never had to personally defend themselves from violence it can be confusing, frustrating, terrifying and incomprehensible to realize that the situation has loved beyond the arena of speech and argument. But the truth is, you have already been punched in the face by Nazi's, all of humanity has. That first happened 70 years ago and they keep punching humanity in the face, or shooting us or running us down with cars every time they pop up from under their rocks. The fight is already upon you.

#47 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 11:18 AM | Reply

^I'm sure I can't help you feel better about it

#48 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 11:43 AM | Reply

There is no such thing as Nazi speech independent of Nazi violence.

The fight is already upon you.

#47 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY

National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie

en.wikipedia.org

... a group's request to engage in a parade or demonstration involving public display of the Nazi swastika is a symbolic form of free speech that is at least presumptively entitled to First Amendment protections. In other words, the Court's decision implies that First Amendment protection would not be denied to use of the swastika as a form of "fighting words".

Wrong again -- it's long been settled.

If you're too young to know or remember Skokie, that's okay because tolerance is either learned or self-taught -- now you know.

But if you are old enough to remember Skokie, then your blather makes you a far left-wing nut-job.

#49 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 12:09 PM | Reply

They are shows of force. They are coming out in public armed with a variety of weapons in the uniform of a hostile terrorist organization and looking for victims to assault.

#45 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY

More people voting for politicians who denounce nazism, compared to those nazis who show up at their own public rallies, is the ultimate show of force.

You're being ridiculous.

#50 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 12:20 PM | Reply

- use of the swastika as a form of "fighting words".

Which is not the same as carrying arms and firing at people at these rallies, much less running over people with cars.

#51 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-21 01:05 PM | Reply

"Violence is not the solution"
You don't buy into the "good guy with a gun" thing?

#38 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I'm anti-gun, anti-war, anti-violence. Maybe you're new here.

#52 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-21 01:19 PM | Reply

Step 1: Don't elect loud n' proud racists.
#32 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Quit foisting Wall Street Military Globalist coddlers calling themselves "liberals".

#53 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-21 01:21 PM | Reply

This is not an issue of tolerance. I am discussing Nazi violence. Nothing more nothing less. You seem to be in denial of that voilence or preoccupied with something else. Do you.

Feel free to vote your dear little heart out against being run over by a Nazi car.

#54 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 02:03 PM | Reply

@ LeadBelly

www.realclearpolitics.com

BILL MAHER: You have to go by principles, just not how you feel... I'm just asking this because last week we did a new rule about this guy who is dressed up as a Nazi in Seattle.

He may really be a Nazi or he may be a crazy person and maybe there's not a big difference.

But, you know, when people saw him there on the bus it went around the internet and some good Samaritan according to some people went up and punched him out and it got a lot of rave by liberals. And liberals should not be raving about this.

I mean, we have a First Amendment. I don't like Nazis either, I rooted against them on Hogan's Heroes, but we have to go by principles and not by feelings -- that's what the other side does -- you can't just punch Nazis.

TOM MORELLO, RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE: The First Amendment says the government can't pass laws that abridge free speech. I grew up in a home with an anti-fascist, he was my uncle who was a World War II veteran who fought against fascism. And if he was riding that bus and saw a Nazi symbol on someone who wanted to throw all Jews into ovens and ethnically cleanse all colored people from the planet, my 90-year-old uncle, if he was alive, would have punched that son of a bitch in his face and I would've had his back.

MAHER: But then you're --

MORELLO: Is throwing Jews into ovens violence?

BILL MAHER: But this guy was not throwing Jews into ovens. This is a nut on the bus in Seattle...

APRIL RYAN: He was intimidating using an insignia that breeds hate and death.

MAHER: So we get to punch him in the face?

RYAN: No, I don't believe in violence. I don't believe in violence. But there needs to be something.


CONTINUED ON NEXT POST ...

#55 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 02:06 PM | Reply

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST ...

MAHER: But the First Amendment --

[CROSSTALK]

MAHER: We don't believe in the Supreme Court? The Supreme Court said they could march in Skokie (Illinois). And we just saw they were allowed to march. I mean this is what the First Amendment says. Even if something is odious, this is America. You are allowed to express it.

If you throw the principle out the window and just say it's how I feel then you are just as bad as them.

MORELLO: I'm not as bad as them. Just because I want Nazis to be punched does not make me as bad as bad as people who want to throw Jews in the oven.

MAHER: We all want them to be punched. We all want them to be punched. But we live in a nation of laws.

JOHN HEILEMANN: They need to be confronted by better speech and more speech.

MAHER: Right.

HEILEMANN: That's the kind of principle here. The notion is that, I think, obviously if someone is about to do violence or someone shows up with a torch or a club and is threatening someone punching that person is fine.

MAHER: That's different.

HEILEMANN: But you should be allowed, again, according to Bill's principles, the First Amendment, the Constitution, all the things we believe, you should be allowed to speak without being punched in the face.

MORELLO: Unless it's Omaha Beach.

MAHER: Or sit on a bus.

HEILEMANN: So we should be allowed to say we hate Nazis, we hate Nazism, we had fascism, we're against it without saying we like violence.

RYAN: There's this dog whistle that's been going around the nation and people are listening to the call. And the problem is some of these old laws need to be revisited because they just don't fix some of what's going on. And the bottom line -- he has freedom of speech, yes, he was intimidating and inciting, and that is not right.

MAHER: This is what bothers me about liberals. There are no Nazis throwing Jews in the ovens now, in America. This thing about doing something that looks like it takes courage and it doesn't.

Maher and Heilman are right, while Ryan and Morello are wrong ... and I luv Rage Against The Machine ~

#56 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 02:06 PM | Reply

"There are no Nazis throwing Jews in the ovens now, in America."

The point is to try and keep it that way.
Not to ignore the Nazis before it's too late.
We even have a famous quote which specifically makes this point.

#57 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-21 02:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Shooting at people is not free speech. And people that do so are not going to automatically get permits to march.

www.drudge.com

#58 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-21 02:12 PM | Reply

The disconnect here is that you are presupposing that Nazis are not consistently coming to these "demonstrations" armed and seeking victims to attack. You are wrong. At these Nazi gatherings they consistently bring weapons and consistently hurt people. It's not a coincidence. They are engaged in combat even if you are not comfortable with that reality.

#59 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 02:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- being run over by a Nazi car.

I doubt any nazi cars will run over you if you stay home.

If you want to outlaw nazi ideology, then run for congress on that platform.

#60 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-21 02:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Should I quote Maher on Islam for you because he is starkly inconsistent in his selective "tolerance." I do not recoginze him as expert or morally authoritative on any of these issues.

#61 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 02:16 PM | Reply

Shooting at people is not free speech. #58 | POSTED BY CORKY

Shooting at people is illegal and should be prosecuted, regardless of ideology.

#62 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-21 02:16 PM | Reply

"I doubt any nazi cars will run over you if you stay home."

Great advice for Anne Frank.

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-21 02:25 PM | Reply

Appeasement sheep.

#64 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-21 02:27 PM | Reply

#62 And yet the shooting is happening.

They are at war with us. The purpose of their gathering is to inflict combat on others. This is the same pattern of the brown shirt gangs in Germany for almost a decade before hitler came to power. They gather to comit acts of violence. They will either find a victim or resistance (or empty streets if the terrorize the population into hiding) but they will continue to march for violence. That is their intent and very nature.

#65 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 02:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Should I quote Maher on Islam for you because he is starkly inconsistent in his selective "tolerance." I do not recoginze him as expert or morally authoritative on any of these issues.

#61 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY

Go ahead and quote Maher on Islam, I mostly agree with him on that ... because while I don't consider myself an atheist I do think like Maher that all religions are dumb and a waste of time.

Your problem is that you're going off the rails when it comes to speech you don't like -- like Morello and Ryan did in trying to condone that some nazi slob riding on a bus should be punched in the face.

I'm not ideologically driven, but you are -- and you lose people like me at the voting booth with your militancy over these sort of things. I almost always side with liberals because they generally have the better arguments (especially on policy).

I live in Middle-America and I'm telling you that while I personally can look past some of the left-wing BS (like Hollywood) ... you running around in black garb and covered faces, fist fighting (or worse) with nazis -- that stuff turns people off where I live -- you know, the people who gave the election to Trump. I'm all for being against nazis ... but if think that simply seeing a swastika gives you the right to violence against nazis, then you're hurting your own cause.

Counter-protest all you want. You want to wear all black like Danzig in The Misfits? ... have at it. If you show your faces and peacefully counter-protest you'll sway more people to your side.

#66 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 02:45 PM | Reply

They are at war with us. The purpose of their gathering is to inflict combat on others.

#65 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY

Can you do 100 push-ups?

just wondering ~

#67 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 02:47 PM | Reply

- simply seeing a swastika

Simply displaying a swastika not what Richard Spencer's marchers are doing.... they are shooting at people.

#68 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-21 02:47 PM | Reply

Simply displaying a swastika not what Richard Spencer's marchers are doing.... they are shooting at people.

#68 | POSTED BY CORKY

I'm against that -- I thought I was clear up thread.

#69 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 02:58 PM | Reply

@ Corky

... and if LeadBelly's comments are specifically aimed at what's happened at Gainesville, then I either missed them -- along with him not being specific.

#70 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 03:00 PM | Reply

Well, that's what the thread is about... Nazis shooting at people on American streets... after having forced schools to let them march because "free speech".

Which shooting at people is not. And which schools are going to fight now.

#71 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-21 03:01 PM | Reply

Pinch,

Yes. I can do a lot of push-ups for whatever that's worth. I grew up a fairly accomplished athlete. At my size I have to stay in the gym for my health. Men with my frame tend to put on a ton of weight in middle age if they don't stay active.

Again and for the last time. I am not talking about speech. I am talking about Nazi violence which they bring with them wherever they go. Nazi's inflict violence on others consistently, including at these "demonstrations." If they don't find resistance, they find victims. The history is clear and incontrovertible.

If you maintain an absolute commitment to nonviolence in the face of others violent acts and threats, I will respect your stance. That is your principled choice. King was willing to be martyred to fulfill the strategy of non-violent resistance. If you are willing to be martyred that is I guess admirable, but it ain't me. I maintain a commitment to self defense.

I'm not talking about the battle of ideas. I'm talking about the ongoing physical battles imposed by Nazi's on the world around them. They are fighting with us on the regular. If you don't recognize the pattern and threat and actual incidents of Nazi violence then you are probably just lucky enough to not be in their sights ... yet.

#72 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 03:16 PM | Reply

And which schools are going to fight now.
#71 | POSTED BY CORKY

Secretly, you're rooting for the boogeyman, which you desperately need for your fear and panic campaign.

#73 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-21 03:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Nazis are not here to debate the merits of genicide they are here to practice it. Last time the West let the Nazis have a running head start and they murdered millions and we had to we bomb Europe back to the Bronze Age to purge the infection. There is once again, a global white supremacist Reich on the rise. Someone will have to fight these terrorist either before or after they set the world on fire again. This is not a speech issue, it's combat. Bourguiosie liberal sensibilities don't know how to process this particular reality, but they are already at war with us.

#41 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY AT 2017-10-21 03:40 AM

My original post in this thread.

Nazi's are harming and killing people and it is accelerating just as the brown shirt activity began a decade before Hitler rose to power. They are ramping up their violence and visibility. We will have to fight them sooner or later, because they are already fighting us. I was pretty clear what I was addressing. They are attacking people. They need to be fought.

#74 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 03:27 PM | Reply

They are attacking people. They need to be fought.
#74 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY

Like-minded progressives are recruiting: www.drudge.com

#75 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-21 03:31 PM | Reply

Schizotrumpgasm's people in action.

www.ocweekly.com

#76 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2017-10-21 03:38 PM | Reply

Well, that's what the thread is about... Nazis shooting at people on American streets... after having forced schools to let them march because "free speech".

#71 | POSTED BY CORKY

LeadBelly's first post was #41, and my response to it is post # 43 ...

I'm all for self-defense, and I do not condone nazis popping off rounds in public.

#77 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 05:24 PM | Reply

Nazi's are harming and killing people and it is accelerating just as the brown shirt activity began a decade before Hitler rose to power. They are ramping up their violence and visibility. We will have to fight them sooner or later, because they are already fighting us. I was pretty clear what I was addressing. They are attacking people. They need to be fought.

#74 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY

You're very clear in your mistaken belief that fighting them is going to sway people to your side.

#78 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 05:37 PM | Reply

Pinch,
Did you have a Zyklon B?
Oops, I mean a Plan B?

#79 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-21 05:48 PM | Reply

Pinch,
Did you have a Zyklon B?
Oops, I mean a Plan B?

#79 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

You need to understand who is on you're side, and who isn't on your side.

#80 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 06:30 PM | Reply

Which is basically what I would say to you about people who protest Nazis.

#81 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-21 07:15 PM | Reply

They are attacking people. They need to be fought.
#74 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY
Like-minded progressives are recruiting: www.drudge.com
#75 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM

That's a false equivalence and you know it. Standing up to Nazis is not like being a Nazi.
We know which side you are on at least.

#82 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-10-21 07:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Which is basically what I would say to you about people who protest Nazis.

#81 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I'm on the side of those protesting against Nazis.

But the second those protesting Nazis become themselves militant, with the added condoning of violence in their message, they'll lose support. It happened to the anti-war protesters during the Vietnam War -- and if they're not careful, it'll happen to those protesting Nazis.

#83 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 07:31 PM | Reply

Quit foisting Wall Street Military Globalist coddlers calling themselves "liberals".

#53 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM AT 2017-10-21 01:21 PM | REPLY

Hillary didnt call herself a liberal. The right wingers did

#84 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-10-21 07:38 PM | Reply

Who said anything about swaying people to my side? I'm talking about self defense in the face of violence and violent threats. I don't need your help or approval to defend me and mine by whatever means necessary. Most likely when push comes to shove it's the unprepared theoretical pacifists who will need my help.

You are clearly looking to argue a point you really care about regarding the imaginary hypothetical of Nazi speech in the absence of violence. You should probably go find whatever thread isn't about actual Nazi violence to air out your passion.

#85 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 07:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"But the second those protesting Nazis become themselves militant, with the added condoning of violence in their message, they'll lose support."

By support you mean, your ideologocal agreement?

I'm not providing actual matetial support to anyone on any side, as best I can tell. Are you? How so?

On the other hand if you are writing checks, it might matter.

#86 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-21 08:01 PM | Reply

Who said anything about swaying people to my side? I'm talking about self defense in the face of violence and violent threats. I don't need your help or approval to defend me and mine by whatever means necessary. Most likely when push comes to shove it's the unprepared theoretical pacifists who will need my help.

You are clearly looking to argue a point you really care about regarding the imaginary hypothetical of Nazi speech in the absence of violence. You should probably go find whatever thread isn't about actual Nazi violence to air out your passion.

#85 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY

Antifa should take a cue from history and drop its tantrums
thehill.com

Antifa is good at throwing bottles and punches, even against people falsely maligned as white supremacists like the conservative Ben Shapiro, as it demonstrated last week in Berkeley.

But while it deserves credit for also standing up to the real white supremacists and neo-Nazis, its dilettante style of "resistance" lacks the guts and vision to really defeat those ideologies or create positive social change.

The Antifa model of "resistance" suffers from two fundamental misconceptions.

First, Antifa believes that small group "direct action" violence can achieve sustained political results. It cannot, and never has.

What about Antifa's "direct action" forebears in the Communist Workers Party (CWP), who in 1979 staged a shootout with the Ku Klux Klan and the American Nazi Party in Greensboro, North Carolina?

Who remembers the names of the five people killed?

And what was accomplished, except to create the perception among much of the public that the gun-toting KKK fascists and gun-toting CWP anti-fascists were but mirror images of each other?

... advocacy for civil rights and gender equality was considered the "hate speech" of the day back in the 1960s. Many of us risked expulsion from school or loss of jobs merely for speaking out. It wasn't until the 1969 Supreme Court decision in Tinker v. Des Moines School District that high school and college students gained the right to free speech.

This explains why so many from the "free speech" generation of the 1960s viscerally recoil at Antifa's Orwellian attempts to silence speech it opposes.

And therein lies Antifa's second misconception.

You cannot defeat racist speech by trying to silence it. That only generates sympathy for their right to free speech -- even from those opposed to their views -- because this right is central to our identity as Americans.

History shows you can only defeat racist ideology by engaging and exposing it. That's how we gained victories against Jim Crow segregation and discrimination. We won the battle of ideas.

But Antifa doesn't have the fortitude for that kind of patient and protracted work. They prefer to dress up in masks and shields and play act at "revolution."

Throwing punches and tantrums won't create positive social change. You've got to win the battle of ideas, and that is something Antifa is singularly unable to do.


I'm hardly a pacifist. A person threatened needs to defend themself.

And your bluster simply isn't convincing.

You need to understand what's said above -- you risk wrecking your life thinking you're being righteous by punching heads with Nazis.

#87 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 08:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

By support you mean, your ideologocal agreement?

#86 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

See above -- the writer from The Hill.com says it better than I can.

#88 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 08:41 PM | Reply

In my opinion here's a good comment in the comments section in the op-ed piece from The Hill.com in #87 ...

thehill.com

Antifa and the neo-nazi's have a lot in common. They both want to tear America apart. They aren't above using violence to get the job done and they both get comfort in middle America sitting on it's behind shaking their heads.

Imagine that, sitting on your behind and not doing anything is the first step down the road to hell.

Vote moderate and save U.S. from ourselves.

All you gotta do people is quit shaking your heads and get up once or twice a year and vote. How hard is that.


QFT

#89 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 09:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

An act of domestic terrorism that isn't getting much coverage:

Suspect facing terrorism charge in Williamsburg IED explosion

Williamsburg Police arrested 30-year-old Stephen Powers at his home in Gloucester County Friday.

Powers was charged with possession of using and explosive device and committing an act of terrorism.

wtvr.com

We'll have to wait and see if they reveal what drove this act of domestic terrorism.

#90 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-10-21 09:29 PM | Reply

- Antifa

Isn't forcing schools into hosting rallies where Nazis fire their weapons, mostly at black people.

When they aren't busy murdering a woman with a car.

The equivalency is false.... and lame, and only says the same things Richard Spencer says.

#91 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-21 10:00 PM | Reply

Antifa activists say violence is necessary - thehill.com

#92 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-21 10:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I keep talking about violence. You keep "responding" talkin about speech. I have to assume at this point you either don't understand the difference, or you don't mean I be talking to or abou me so I'll just have to disregard. Feel free to start a thread about non-violent Nazi activities. This one is about them shooting people.

#93 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-21 10:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The equivalency is false.... and lame, and only says the same things Richard Spencer says.

They're not equal, the Nazis are way worse.

But like the The Hill piece in #87, punching heads with Nazis will not work ... way more Americans sympathize with elements of white supremacy then they do with anarchists.

Fighting Nazis in the streets while dreesed in all black and covered faces will only drive public opinion into the arms of the Orange Effing Moron.

This is a no brainer.

#94 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 10:30 PM | Reply

I keep talking about violence. You keep "responding" talkin about speech. I have to assume at this point you either don't understand the difference, or you don't mean I be talking to or abou me so I'll just have to disregard. Feel free to start a thread about non-violent Nazi activities. This one is about them shooting people.

#93 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY

Better start doing those push-ups.

#95 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-21 10:38 PM | Reply

You are clearly looking to argue a point you really care about regarding the imaginary hypothetical of Nazi speech in the absence of violence. You should probably go find whatever thread isn't about actual Nazi violence to air out your passion.

#85 | POSTED BY LEADBELLY

I'm not arguing "imaginary" or "hypothetical" concepts.

I'm arguing real things that are at the very top of our democracy's food chain ...

Study: College Students Hostile Toward Free Speech
www.drudge.com

Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?
www.drudge.com

I'm against Nazis -- but you're wrong in your thinking and in your actions.

Feel free to add your 2-cents in those threads I highlighted -- I promise you that I won't be offended even if you call me every name in the book ... because, you know, I'm not easily offended ~

#96 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-22 09:58 AM | Reply

#96

Perhaps LB is right and you should start another thread where Nazis haven't been shooting at people, as you seem to be all about ignoring that fact.

#97 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-22 12:52 PM | Reply

Perhaps LB is right and you should start another thread where Nazis haven't been shooting at people, as you seem to be all about ignoring that fact.

#97 | POSTED BY CORKY

For the Ba-Zillionth time, I've stated that I DO NOT condone violence.

So I'm NOT ignoring that fact that Nazis shot at people. Prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. Lock them up and throw away the key ... is that clear enough for you?

LeadBelly is wrong to think that physically confronting Nazis is the solution -- I also clearly explained that, especially in post # 87.

This all boils down to people like LeadBelly not wanting to hear hate speech -- but hate speech is protected by the 1st Amendment and people like LeadBelly need to grow the eff up and deal with it like everyone else -- which is to speak out against it, and above everything, vote.

#98 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-10-22 02:21 PM | Reply

You're painting a picture where someone who wanted to engender sympathy for Nazis would run a false flag antifa movement.

Which is kind of what happened on Facebook.

"I'm arguing real things that are at the very top of our democracy's food chain ...
Study: College Students Hostile Toward Free Speech
www.drudge.com"

That article makes the claim "A fifth of undergrads now say it's acceptable to use physical force to silence a speaker..."

The problem is the word "now." That makes it sound like it's a problem that they think that and that it's getting worse. But there's no evidence this is a problem that's getting worse. There's no historical polling data. There's just "concerns about the "narrowing window of permissible topics" for discussion on campuses." And money from the Koch Bros. to study it. But that's just an assertion, hoping to find convincing evidence.

Let's look at what wasn't asked. What percentage of Trump rally attendees felt it was appropriate to use force to silence and remove protesters from those rallies. You remember, the ones where Trump promised to pay people's legal bills if they had to get rough. You think it was only 20% who approved of that?

How many people approved of "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" getting tazed?

Pretending this is a problem that's flourishing on college campuses, and not investigating these attitudes elsewhere, is an attempt to pretend college campuses are why this is happening.

But political protesters have been confined to "free speech areas" going on thirty years now. What you're seeing on college campuses is a reflection of a political class that's taken great steps to insulate itself from things they don't want to see or hear.

Let me ask you the question that was aksed in the poll:

"A public university invites a very controversial speaker to an on-campus event. The speaker is known for making offensive and hurtful statements. A student group opposed to the speaker disrupts the speech by loudly and repeatedly shouting so that the audience cannot hear the speaker. Do you agree or disagree that the student group's actions are acceptable?"

This isn't even a First Amendment question! Nowhere is the state restricting speech.
And you absolutely have a First Amendment right to disrupt a speech that way, via speech of your own.

Not all First Amendment actions are acceptable to people. That's hardly controversial. Not everyone has the same sacred cows.

#99 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-22 02:56 PM | Reply

"Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?
www.drudge.com"

"Freedom" goes hand in hand with an economy characterized by the fact that "since 1975, nearly all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households."

That wasn't really the established trajectory of the economy in the 1980s. People born after 1980 didn't get to make the implied comparison to the USSR when answering that question. For they never really knew what the USSR was. It was gone by the time they were ten.

A question like that is a referendum on "do you buy into the propaganda?" The fact that so many younger people don't ought to do two things. Restore your faith in humanity, and reveal to you that even youngsters can see that there are deep structural problem in our "democratic" country, which "democracy" ain't fixing.

#100 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-22 03:05 PM | Reply

"This all boils down to people like LeadBelly not wanting to hear hate speech -- but hate speech is protected by the 1st Amendment"

Is it though?

Here's a description of content that can be banned by the government:

"that the work in question, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, is patently offensive in light of community standards, and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value." www.fff.org

That is the legal rationale for why kiddie porn is banned.
It's perfectly reasonable to apply that to hate speech.
You just never thought to do it.

#101 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-22 03:14 PM | Reply

That is the legal rationale for why kiddie porn is banned.
#101 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Rape is also illegal, yet fantasy rape sites are protected.

#102 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2017-10-22 03:24 PM | Reply

Pinch,

I haven't called you any names yet, but if you keep inventing positions for me thatvInhavent taken I will certainly come up with some names for you.

I have said nothing about silencing anyone's speech. I have said we have to start preparing for, and/or engage the already underway combat being imposed on society by the violent actions of Nazi's. They are beating, stabbing shooting and running people over with cars. Nazis are conducting acts of violence. This is already a fact in evidence and that fact is what I support defending ourselves against. For the last time, I am not commenting on or addressing speech. I'm sure someone on this site is arguing against Nazi speech. Take it up with them.

Your imaginary non-violent Nazis and can go about their imaginary speech business with no interest from me. The actual Nazis that are assaulting and murdering people in the real world are the ones we are all going to have to combat sooner or later. Eventually they come for those in hiding as well.

#103 | Posted by leadbelly at 2017-10-22 03:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Rape is illegal, but depictions of rape are legal.
Sex with minor is illegal, and depiction of sex with minor is illegal.

I guess I'd like someone to explain to me what about the Nazi ideology doesn't achieve the same status: "that the work in question, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, is patently offensive in light of community standards, and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value."

I guess I'd like Pinchaloaf to explain that.

#104 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-22 03:28 PM | Reply

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