Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, October 09, 2017

The White House on Sunday delivered to Congress a long list of hard-line immigration measures that President Trump is demanding in exchange for any deal to protect the young undocumented immigrants known as Dreamers, imperiling a fledgling bipartisan push to reach a legislative solution. Before agreeing to provide legal status for 800,000 young immigrants brought here illegally as children, Mr. Trump will insist on the construction of a wall across the southern border, the hiring of 10,000 immigration agents, tougher laws for those seeking asylum and denial of federal grants to "sanctuary cities," officials said. The White House is also demanding the use of the E-Verify program by companies to keep illegal immigrants from getting jobs, an end to people bringing their extended family into the United States, and a hardening of the border against thousands of children fleeing violence in Central America.

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Democratic leaders in Congress reacted with alarm, saying the demands threaten to undermine the president's own statements in which he had pledged to work across the aisle to protect the Dreamers through legislation.

"The administration can't be serious about compromise or helping the Dreamers if they begin with a list that is anathema to the Dreamers, to the immigrant community and to the vast majority of Americans," Senator Chuck Schumer of New York and Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, the Democratic leaders in the Senate and the House, said in a joint statement.

"If the president was serious about protecting the Dreamers, his staff has not made a good-faith effort to do so," they added.

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Trump lied, dreams died.

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-09 11:08 AM | Reply

As opposed to the dems holding hostage the wall. News flash... the dreamers are hear illegally.

#2 | Posted by Sniper at 2017-10-09 02:23 PM | Reply | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 1

Here

#3 | Posted by Lohocla at 2017-10-09 02:57 PM | Reply

Is Schumer talking about the current Dreamers, or the future ones they anticipate in the pipeline?

#4 | Posted by sentinel at 2017-10-09 03:25 PM | Reply

To be guilty of a crime, any crime, there needs to be what is called a "mens rea". Which is a fancy way of saying a criminal mindset to either break the law, or intentionally do an act that is against the law. Intending to drive, even though you are intoxicated, is all the mens rea needed to drunk drive. Intending to kill with "malice" is all the mens rea needed to commit the crime of murder. The problem with trying to say that Dreamers have broken the law is that it is not true. They have not chosen to do anything. As kids they were brought to this country. They did nothing pro-active. They formed no type of criminal intent whatsoever. It is a LIE to claim that somehow any of the kids who fall into the Dreamer class have committed a crime by being here. Therefore the notion of somehow punishing them via deportation is especially offensive.

#5 | Posted by moder8 at 2017-10-09 03:32 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

The idea of giving people an incentive to put kids into this situtation is offensive. Yet it seems Democrats are more than happy to do it.

#6 | Posted by sentinel at 2017-10-09 03:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Good. The wall is the biggest threat to a democrat one-party state ever. Dems love illegal immigrant slave labor AKA future democrat voters.

#7 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-10-09 03:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Sentinel and people like him would criminally punish innocent people. Specifically, Dreamers who have broken no law. People like Sentinel would destroy the lives of hundreds of thousands of other people who have done intentionally nothing wrong whatsoever. Nazi much?

#8 | Posted by moder8 at 2017-10-09 03:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

--The White House is also demanding the use of the E-Verify program by companies to keep illegal immigrants from getting jobs,

Why would any Dem oppose that, unless they privilege illegal immigration?

#9 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-10-09 03:54 PM | Reply

Ooh, the N word.

Godwin is not dead yet, despite your attempts to euthanize him.

#10 | Posted by sentinel at 2017-10-09 03:55 PM | Reply

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--Nazi much?

#8 | Posted by moder8

More retarded nazi baiting.

#11 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-10-09 03:55 PM | Reply

Refute my point. But you can't. Because I am correct. You would criminally punish hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

#12 | Posted by moder8 at 2017-10-09 03:56 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

Moder8 is right, a child brought here or sent here illegally by his/her family cannot form the requisite intent to commit the crime.

Pretty sure that once this was explained to Trump he had his change of heart on instantly deporting the Dreamers, which is why he punted to Congress to make it their problem.

Shumer and Pelosi's biggest problem is one of optics, they crowed that they had pulled one over on Trump at their dinner and now he has screwed them.

#13 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-10-09 03:58 PM | Reply

--Refute my point

Did you make a point? Illegal immigrants should go home and enrich their home countries with their newly acquired skills. That would a patriotic thing to do.

#14 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-10-09 03:59 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

#12

But you had to cheapen the point by resorting the last refuge of the Incorkpetant, calling someone a Nazi.

#15 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-10-09 04:00 PM | Reply

"Shumer and Pelosi's biggest problem is one of optics, they crowed"

I thought at the time they should have kept their mouths shut until the ground work was done, but no. . . .

#16 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-10-09 04:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

= the biggest threat to a democrat one-party state ever.

At least you are a consistent moran. The rwing GOP holds near total power in all phases of government in this country... so naturally we should be concerned about the yuuge threat of a, "democrat one-party state", rofl!

Much like we should be threatened by BLM and antifascists when the rwing Trumpish GOP is adored and supported by the much larger and more influential with Trump white supremacists.

#17 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-09 04:01 PM | Reply

"Why would any Dem oppose that, unless they privilege illegal immigration?"

Because it's a cumbersome, counterproductive rule imposed by a faceless cowering bureaucrats in Washington, hiding behind the jack-booted authority of the Federal government, drunk on power, intent on crushing the entrepreneurial spirit that Made America Great in the first place.

You know, just like every single environmental regulation and the EPA itself.

#18 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-09 04:01 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

#14

These kids can't be illegal, they fall into a grey area that Congress now has to sort out.

#19 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-10-09 04:01 PM | Reply

The whole point is that the so-called Dreamers would be legalized in conjunction with these tougher measures against illegal immigration, so they would not apply to the victims of human trafficking who are already here.

#20 | Posted by sentinel at 2017-10-09 04:02 PM | Reply

#16 Couldn't agree more, in this world of instant self-congratulation they hoisted themselves on their own petard, by a ------.

Tip O'Neill is spinning in his grave.

#21 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-10-09 04:03 PM | Reply

--These kids can't be illegal, they fall into a grey area that Congress now has to sort out.

As long as there is no chain-migration, it's fine with me.

#22 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-10-09 04:05 PM | Reply

#22

If you are talking about upward chain migration (i.e. since the Dreamers now have legal status their relatives do to) then I agree with you. If you are talking about lateral (i.e. legal) chain migration, I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

#23 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-10-09 04:07 PM | Reply

#21

That should be "with the help of" instead of "by", which in hindsight makes no sense.

#24 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-10-09 04:08 PM | Reply

Wait... grey area... are we talking about aliens, or... ALIENS?!

#25 | Posted by sentinel at 2017-10-09 04:09 PM | Reply

--#23 | Posted by Rightocenter a

I don't know what you mean by lateral chain migration. Kids under 16 should be allowed to stay, but not given voting rights. Their relatives will just have to apply for legal immigration like millions of others who do it the right way, legally.

#26 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-10-09 04:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

To Moder8 & ROC...I think they very well can be deported, but probably wont be...I say they could be deported legally, because they are undocumented, not because of any crime committed. There would be no criminal charge where mens rea would come into effect only an immgration status hearing and removal hearing.

#27 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2017-10-09 04:21 PM | Reply

Dreamers who have broken no law.

#8 | Posted by moder8

Now there is a pile of BS. they are in the country illegally.

#28 | Posted by Sniper at 2017-10-09 04:22 PM | Reply

Sniper, you're wrong, they are not in the country illegally.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-09 04:25 PM | Reply

Also remaining in the U.S. with knowledge that you are undocumented is a crime. So it could be said they didn't know at the time of their arrival, but as soon as they did know & decided to stay it becomes a crime.

#30 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2017-10-09 04:29 PM | Reply

--they are not in the country illegally.

Ignorant hogwash from junior. If they were in the country legally there would be no debate, junior.

#31 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-10-09 04:30 PM | Reply

lateral chain migration. Kids under 16 should be allowed to stay, but not given voting rights. Their relatives will just have to apply for legal immigration like millions of others who do it the right way, legally.

You just answered your own question.

#32 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-10-09 04:30 PM | Reply

There's no crime called "being in America illegally" so what are you saying they're guilty of?

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-09 04:31 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Sniper, you're wrong, they are not in the country illegally.

#29 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

If they now know they are undocumented it makes the mens rea point mute.

#34 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2017-10-09 04:32 PM | Reply

TXL #27, you say that, but it is not clear whether you are correct. I concede that one interpretation of the law may be as you claim in #27. But it is clear. This specific issue is in hot debate in legal circles.

As for #30, that also is unclear. If you did not enter the country illegally AND you did not enter the country of your own free will, it is not clear whether it crime to remain. By that logic, millions of black people who came to this nation up until 1865 could be deemed illegal.

#35 | Posted by moder8 at 2017-10-09 04:34 PM | Reply

"Under DACA, Dreamers were able to apply to defer deportation and legally reside in the US for two years. After that, they could apply for renewal. By March 31, 240,700 people had applied for renewal in the 2017 fiscal year and nearly 800,000 renewals had been approved over the life of the program."

www.cnn.com

Spealing of, "Ignorant hogwash", it's amazing how often such a self-proclaimed superior intellect is so wrong.

#36 | Posted by Corky at 2017-10-09 04:35 PM | Reply

"If they now know they are undocumented it makes the mens rea point mute."

Back to it being illegal to simply be here, which it isn't.

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-09 04:53 PM | Reply

37 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

You are correct simply being here is not illegal. Being here without authorization is however unlawful

INA § 212(a)(9)(B)(ii), 8 USC § 1182(a)(9)(B)(ii) An alien is deemed to be unlawfully present in the United States if the alien is present in the United States after the expiration of the period of stay authorized by the Attorney General or is present in the United States without being admitted or paroled.

#38 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2017-10-09 05:11 PM | Reply

I'm impressed you looked that up!

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-09 05:24 PM | Reply

11 million are here unlawfully.
Should we hunt them down, lock them up, give them their day in court, necessitating detainment camps for the millions,
Or waive habeas corpus so we don't have to detain them and can just ship them out,
Or not hunt them down at all?
what's your preference?

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-09 05:27 PM | Reply

#40 - Serious question. If you are here illegally and working you are either evading taxes or commiting SS fraud. How do you rectify that part of the equation?

#41 | Posted by gavaster at 2017-10-09 08:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

So... If your parents sold drugs and bought a nice home which you lived in (through no fault of your own) and the gov arrested your parents, you should be able to stay in the home?

Or your parents move into a vacant home and you are living with them (through no fault of your own) and the home owners return. You have the right to stay in the home?

#42 | Posted by sawdust at 2017-10-09 08:59 PM | Reply

undocumented...dreamers...antifa...BLM, if you like it where you're at, and want to stay on this land,
get with the program and do what's been proven to be successful in the americas

elect strong informed leaders...form networks in your communities...support shared values

decide what is absolutely non-negotiable

do what you can to thwart those who seek to do you harm..guerrilla tactics

Arm yourselves

you will automatically have the full support of anyone who supports the revolutionaries of 1776

#43 | Posted by ABlock at 2017-10-09 10:39 PM | Reply

"#40 - Serious question. If you are here illegally and working you are either evading taxes or commiting SS fraud. How do you rectify that part of the equation?"

Plenty of people who are here legally evade taxes and commit SS fraud.
So, same way?

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-10 02:55 AM | Reply

--The White House is also demanding the use of the E-Verify program by companies to keep illegal immigrants from getting jobs,
Why would any Dem oppose that, unless they privilege illegal immigration?

#9 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

They aren't. But the GOP is.

#45 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-10-10 10:17 AM | Reply

So... If your parents sold drugs and bought a nice home which you lived in (through no fault of your own) and the gov arrested your parents, you should be able to stay in the home?
Or your parents move into a vacant home and you are living with them (through no fault of your own) and the home owners return. You have the right to stay in the home?

#42 | POSTED BY SAWDUST

Oh this game is fun.

You are working for a company with higher management that broke a few laws and didn't pay taxes properly, so you should be able to keep your paychecks?

#46 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-10-10 10:19 AM | Reply

"Serious question. If you are here illegally and working you are either evading taxes or commiting SS fraud. How do you rectify that part of the equation?"

SS fraud by paying your SS taxes for benefits you will never receive? I don't think that really qualifies as the crime of fraud.

#47 | Posted by danni at 2017-10-10 10:22 AM | Reply

"You are working for a company with higher management that broke a few laws and didn't pay taxes properly, so you should be able to keep your paychecks?"

Like all the employees of Wells Fargo and other big banks.

#48 | Posted by danni at 2017-10-10 10:23 AM | Reply

So... If your parents sold drugs and bought a nice home which you lived in (through no fault of your own) and the gov arrested your parents, you should be able to stay in the home?
Or your parents move into a vacant home and you are living with them (through no fault of your own) and the home owners return. You have the right to stay in the home?

#42 | POSTED BY SAWDUST AT 2017-10-09 08:59 PM | REPLY | FLAG

That's a great strawman. Perfect for this time of the year.

#49 | Posted by 726 at 2017-10-10 10:26 AM | Reply

If you are here illegally and working you are either evading taxes or commiting SS fraud. How do you rectify that part of the equation?

#41 | POSTED BY GAVASTER AT 2017-10-09 08:29 PM | REPLY | FLAG

They are not entitled to collect social security, therefore no social security fraud.

How many of them working an collecting paychecks are not paying FICA? How would they do that? Go to HR and tell them not to withhold FICA because they are undocumented workers? If they did and HR complied with that request, then the business would be an accomplice on the tax evasion.

#50 | Posted by 726 at 2017-10-10 10:29 AM | Reply

#50 | POSTED BY 726 AT 2017-10-10 10:29 AM | FLAG: What company large enough to have a HR department would hire and be paying someone without a SS number?

#51 | Posted by MSgt at 2017-10-10 12:19 PM | Reply

so if you read every posting it seems to boil down to...it's mine, i want to keep it, i think that
you want to take it away for yourself.
then we list all the reasons we're right and you're wrong
can anyone explain how dreamers, illegals, undocumented, whatever you care to call these
people, are any different than european immigrants
are native americans not entitled to any opinion because they lost
does your ability to subjugate your opponent carry with it the ability to say what is "right" and
does that carry with it any objective moral considerations

#52 | Posted by ABlock at 2017-10-10 01:14 PM | Reply

Oh this game is fun. You are working for a company with higher management that broke a few laws and didn't pay taxes properly, so you should be able to keep your paychecks? - #46 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-10-10 10:19 AM

Looks like there's room to compromise. We don't take past paychecks, and we don't go back in time to deport people? Stop future paychecks/occupation. Sound about right?

#53 | Posted by Avigdore at 2017-10-10 01:28 PM | Reply

That's a great strawman. Perfect for this time of the year. - #49 | Posted by 726 at 2017-10-10 10:26 AM
That's not a
Straw Man Fallacy, which is assigning someone a position that they haven't taken, then refuting that position.

#54 | Posted by Avigdore at 2017-10-10 01:31 PM | Reply

"Stop future paychecks/occupation. Sound about right?"

Layoff workers because management broke the law?

You must be a top notch manager!

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-10 01:36 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain...Fraud.

To provide false information in order to work is fraud.

Also, I thought that if you have taxes withheld but you are a foreigner, you can claim a refund since you're paying taxes to your home country. So, if they are taking out ss taxes, they can get it back...

#56 | Posted by Petrous at 2017-10-10 04:10 PM | Reply

As for the kids not committing a crime, they should go back to their own country voluntarily or be deported. If they don't remember anything about their country of origin, that's their parents problem - as well as the country that takes them back.

If you re-enter the country after deportation, that's a criminal offense.

#57 | Posted by Petrous at 2017-10-10 04:13 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

Or your parents move into a vacant home and you are living with them (through no fault of your own) and the home owners return. You have the right to stay in the home?

#42 | POSTED BY SAWDUST AT 2017-10-09 08:59 PM |

Bad analogy. A house is just a thing. If you kick me out of a house I can sleep in my car. I don't get thrown into a foreign country where they speak a different language.

#58 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-10-10 05:29 PM | Reply

Not to confuse the debate with anecdotes but a lot of the dreamers are millennials and we all know millennials are the most worthless generation, my personal experience bears this out with two exceptions. Of the two exceptions one is a dreamer so based on that 50% of the useful millennials in the country are dreamers. Do we really want to kick out 1/2 the people that we can count on to support us in retirement?

As far as facts go dreamers are documented under the DACA they could get work permits, drivers licenses and SSN's. While they cannot renew now they are still documented for the rest of their 2 year deferral.

#59 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2017-10-10 06:06 PM | Reply

"If they don't remember anything about their country of origin, that's their parents problem"

That... makes no sense.

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-10-10 06:17 PM | Reply

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