Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Saturday, August 12, 2017

President Donald Trump declined to condemn the violent actions and protests of white supremacists on Saturday, who had converged on Charlottesville, Va., en masse to protest the removal of a statue of a Confederate general. ... Instead, Trump called out in what he deemed the strongest possible terms "this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides -- on many sides." Yet, he never denounced by name the extremist group, or called their behavior unacceptable.

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The group that gathered in Charlottesville included well-known figures in the white supremacist movement including David Duke, who previously ran the Ku Klux Klan, and Richard Spencer, the so-called "alt-right" leader, who in November at Washington D.C. conference, led supporters in a Nazi salute and the chanting of "Hail Trump, hail our people, hail victory!"

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Dirtbag.

#1 | Posted by Angrydad at 2017-08-12 09:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Former KKK leader David Duke strikes out at Trump for condemning a white nationalist rally: 'It was White Americans who put you in the presidency'

www.businessinsider.com

#2 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-08-12 09:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

But he can say "Radical Islam".

#3 | Posted by REDIAL at 2017-08-12 09:55 PM | Reply | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 1

Yet Dumbass Duke and his republican minions will still vote for him and all other (R) Russians, the next cycle. The United States, we hardly knew you.

#4 | Posted by zelkova at 2017-08-12 10:01 PM | Reply

Keep in mind Trump is CHOOSING how he responds. He is CHOOSING the side of the KKK and white supremacists

#5 | Posted by truthhurts at 2017-08-12 10:02 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Bannon would spank him if he didn't.

#6 | Posted by Corky at 2017-08-12 10:13 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

The president first condemned the event on Twitter hours after the violence ensued.

We ALL must be united & condemn all that hate stands for. There is no place for this kind of violence in America. Lets come together as one!
-- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 12, 2017

#7 | Posted by WhiteDevil at 2017-08-12 10:21 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

man it must be hard work defending trump

"We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides," Trump said.
"It's been going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump. Not Barack Obama. It's been going on for a long, long time," he said.

nothing special about white terrorism and its not my fault=Trump

#8 | Posted by truthhurts at 2017-08-12 10:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The troublesome thing about this incident is Kim Jong Un. The protest and aftermath has bumped him out of the news cycle so he pretty much has to toss another scud into the ocean to get back on top. Likely in the next 24 hours or so if they have one ready.

#9 | Posted by REDIAL at 2017-08-12 10:33 PM | Reply

As I remember Obama did not condemn the actions of Antifa and BLM, Mater of fact the had BLM invited to the White House. So why the double standard?

#10 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-08-12 10:34 PM | Reply | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 3

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Orange Terrorism and White Terrorism. Together they double-trouble.

#11 | Posted by Corky at 2017-08-12 10:34 PM | Reply

Not defending Trump or anyone else. Just pointing out that he did condemn what was happening.

#12 | Posted by WhiteDevil at 2017-08-12 10:35 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Antifa = anti-fascism

They have a long way to go to catch up with white power terrorism.

#13 | Posted by Corky at 2017-08-12 10:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

--Antifa = anti-fascism

Yeah, and the DPRK is a democratic republic. TFF.

#14 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-08-12 10:42 PM | Reply

Says the devo-ed ass who claimed Stalin was a Christian, rofl!

#15 | Posted by Corky at 2017-08-12 10:59 PM | Reply

The Daily Stormer liked Trump's comments:

Trump comments were good. He didn't attack us. He just said the nation should come together. Nothing specific against us.

He said that we need to study why people are so angry, and implied that there was hate ... on both sides!

So he implied the antifa are haters.

There was virtually no counter-signaling of us at all.

He said he loves us all.

Also refused to answer a question about White Nationalists supporting him.
No condemnation at all.

When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room.

Really, really good.

God bless him.

www.dailystormer.com

#16 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-12 11:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

SCROTUS babbles in the face of tragedy.

One of the difficult but primary duties of the modern presidency is to speak for the nation in times of tragedy. A space shuttle explodes. An elementary school is attacked. The twin towers come down in a heap of ash and twisted steel. It falls to the president to express something of the nation's soul -- grief for the lost, sympathy for the suffering, moral clarity in the midst of confusion, confidence in the unknowable purposes of God.

Not every president does this equally well. But none have been incapable. Until Donald Trump.

Trump's reaction to events in Charlottesville was alternately trite ("come together as one"), infantile ("very, very sad") and meaningless ("we want to study it"). "There are so many great things happening in our country," he said, on a day when racial violence took a life.


www.washingtonpost.com

#17 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2017-08-12 11:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#10

No double standard when I criticized B.
HUSSEIN And TRUMP.

#18 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2017-08-13 12:14 AM | Reply

Hell, don't confuse me with the Alt-right, I am still a libertarian. Now for a little history, In my home town, Wichita Falls Texas they had some KKK organizers come up from Waco back during the 20s. They were met at the station by the town leadership and the entire police force. Words were exchanged, the Kluckers never got off the train. A lot of Southerners hated the Klan. It doesn't take a lot of courage to put on a mask and burn down churches and homes, even less to lynch. If you saw the video of the counter protest, none of Antifa were wearing any masks- it is very much ageist the law in SC. A relic of the anti-Klan laws. Some laws are a good idea.

#19 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-08-13 12:28 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#6 Corky,

I thought Bannon was recovering from a sprained back.

#20 | Posted by john47 at 2017-08-13 09:30 AM | Reply

White Supremacists march through the University of Virginia carrying torches protesting the removal of a confederate statue. Opposing students groups form against the Supremacist group. Their torches remind us of an ugly Southern history of lynch rope, guns and fire being their weapons of choice. But this time one of the Supremacists uses a car instead against their opposition.

Trump condemns the violence in a manner which assigns blame equally to both sides.

His brash threats against all his enemies from little North Korea to individual protesters at his rallies illustrate the hypocrisy of his words. No one should think, however, that Trump is the first President, to pretend there is one set of rules for himself and his country and another for everyone else on the planet. This magnitude of this problem is reflected domestically in police brutality statistics which reveal a pattern of national race based abuse which favors so-called conservatives, supremacist types and hurts minorities dis-proportionally.

#21 | Posted by bayviking at 2017-08-13 09:53 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

White Supremacists march through the University of Virginia carrying torches ...

Let's really put the point on these miscreants with more detail:

White Supremacists march through the University of Virginia carrying torches chanting "blood and soil" ("Blut und Boden").

Let's not kid ourselves about who these people are.

* - www.cnn.com www.historylearningsite.co.uk

#22 | Posted by YAV at 2017-08-13 10:04 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

#21

Yeah, but Benghazi...pizza?....Kissinger?

#23 | Posted by bocaink at 2017-08-13 10:22 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#24

The little lady who was run over and killed was a paid thug?

#25 | Posted by Zed at 2017-08-13 11:18 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

PROLIX, you seem sympathetic to the fascists. Tell me I'm wrong?

#26 | Posted by Zed at 2017-08-13 11:20 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"It seems to me this all occurred do to the anti-protestor presence."

Yeah, it was terrible the way that poor nazis car undercarriage was damaged by the anti fascists.

Fox news has lobotomized you.

#27 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2017-08-13 11:27 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

Antifa is a toxic group.

#28 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-13 11:35 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Trump should just hand his Twitter account over to his wife.

#29 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-13 11:37 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I seem to remember certain people defending a certain president for not calling out radical Islamic terrorism for what it is.

It was wrong then and this is wrong now.

#30 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-13 11:39 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

#30 No one is suggesting Trump call these folks radical Christian terrorists. See the difference?

#31 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-13 11:42 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

#30 No one is suggesting Trump call these folks radical Christian terrorists. See the difference?

#31 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

No. Regardless, this thread isn't about Obama and it was wrong of me to even bring him up.

This is what NRO is saying about this specific issue:

In other words, if there ever was a time in recent American political history for an American president to make a clear, unequivocal statement against the alt-right, it was today. Instead, we got a vague condemnation of "hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides." This is unacceptable, especially given that Trump can be quite specific when he's truly angry. Just ask the Khan family, Judge Curiel, James Comey, or any other person he considers a personal enemy. Even worse, members of the alt-right openly celebrated Trump's statement, taking it as a not-so-veiled decision to stand against media calls to condemn their movement.

www.nationalreview.com

#32 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-13 11:46 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

So, it looks like we are going to have 12 straight years of POTUS tacitly encouraging and stoking racial tensions.

Sad. Truly sad.

#34 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-13 11:59 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#34

I'm a moron. Rcade. please delete #34 - this thread is NOT about Obama. It's a deflection to bring him up. My apologies.

#35 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-13 11:59 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

#33

Nazis always show up wanting a fight. That's why that girl died.

#36 | Posted by Zed at 2017-08-13 12:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#34

I don't believe in the Deep State. I think that's a Nazis fiction.

#37 | Posted by Zed at 2017-08-13 12:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#34 is actually #33.

#38 | Posted by Zed at 2017-08-13 12:16 PM | Reply

#35 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Good on you, Jeff. And you're not a "moron", you just allowed reflex to take over. And then righted the ship. Well done.

#39 | Posted by TheTom at 2017-08-13 12:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Trump will never condemn his voters.

#40 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-08-13 12:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Did someone hack Jeff's account??

#41 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-08-13 12:32 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Anyone following this topic closely: was there a reason why UVA was chosen?
I'm disappointed that this happened at an ACC school rather than a ------- southern University. Or, youknow, that it happened in the first place.

#43 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2017-08-13 12:37 PM | Reply

"What would the outcome have been if no counter protestor showed up?"

I will never allow Nazi's and the KKK to go unchallenged in my country. The confederacy is not taking my country. I will never allow hate speech to go unchallenged in my country. If they march near me I will be out there standing against them.

I am proud of my fellow Virginian's for standing up against the hate being promoted by these Nazi's.

An American died standing up against the Nazi's and you think that it is the fault of the Americans who stood up against the Nazi's who were marching in the name of hate. And our President gave them aid and comfort.

In conclusion, 🖕you Comrade.

#44 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-08-13 12:41 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

Anyone following this topic closely: was there a reason why UVA was chosen?
I'm disappointed that this happened at an ACC school rather than a ------- southern University. Or, youknow, that it happened in the first place.
#43 | Posted by GOnoles92

liberal school town, removing confederate statues

#45 | Posted by truthhurts at 2017-08-13 12:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Anyone following this topic closely: was there a reason why UVA was chosen?

You don't have to follow it very closely to see that the whole thing was about a stature on the university grounds. Reading the first line in the thread summary should be enough.

#46 | Posted by REDIAL at 2017-08-13 12:44 PM | Reply

#42

If Nazis ever achieve power they'll kill members of my family and then me.

So, well, you need to change sides if you want respect.

#47 | Posted by Zed at 2017-08-13 12:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

liberal school town, removing confederate statues

#45 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

Thanks. -_- I was hoping there would have been some type of esoteric historical reason behind the "march" at UVA than yet another statue situation/outrage.

#48 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2017-08-13 12:48 PM | Reply

#24 Prolix247

"It seems to me this all occurred do to the anti-protestor presence. I don't remember their being anti-protestors at liberal marches except the black mask groups who were no doubt here also.

There is the problem. Paid thugs to provide deep state optics."

Prolix, you do understand "deep-state" is ALT-right shorthand for public service employees who are not political appointees, right? This government employee category covers military below chiefs-of-staff, teachers, secretary poolers, cops, dogcatchers, street & sanitation workers, et al.

#49 | Posted by john47 at 2017-08-13 12:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

john47 aligns himself with Nazis, nice to know

#50 | Posted by truthhurts at 2017-08-13 01:01 PM | Reply

So if non-liberals protest and liberals do not like your protest you are the problem. But if liberals protest and you don't like their protest. You are still the problem. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. If the anti's never showed up no one would of been hurt.

#51 | Posted by Federalist at 2017-08-13 01:01 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

--I don't believe in the Deep State. I think that's a Nazis fiction.

Is that why Bill Moyers promotes the concept on his website?

billmoyers.com

#52 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-08-13 01:04 PM | Reply

I'm looking at pictures of white supremacists types marching yesterday in riot helmets, carrying shields, and chanting Blood and Soil

They were also calling out Jews, which is a Nazis synonym for Deep State.

#53 | Posted by Zed at 2017-08-13 01:05 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#52

Time to come to Jesus, NULLI.

#54 | Posted by Zed at 2017-08-13 01:07 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

#51

The antis had just as much of a right to exercise their freedom of speech as the Nazis. Who showed up with bats and shields?

#55 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2017-08-13 01:08 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#53 | Posted by Zed
I saw both sides wearing helmets and bearing shields. Try to be honest.

#56 | Posted by Federalist at 2017-08-13 01:09 PM | Reply

"Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. If the anti's never showed...blah blah blah"

Freedom of speech is not free. It comes with responsibilities. It comes with consequences.

When the Nazi's and the KKK and the confederacy marched in my street I will be there to stand against them.

Because as long as I am alive I will never allow the KKK the Nazi's and the confederacy to be the voice of my country.

#57 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-08-13 01:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

#56

Honesty has nothing to do with fascist ideology. It's one reason sone people are comfortable with Donald being a freaking liar.

#58 | Posted by Zed at 2017-08-13 01:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#51 | POSTED BY FEDERALIST
"If the anti's never showed up no one would of been hurt."

First of all, it's "would have". If you're going to live in this country, learn the damn language.

#59 | Posted by TheTom at 2017-08-13 02:17 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

If the anti's never showed up no one would of been hurt.

#51 | POSTED BY FEDERALIST

But you're being rational and logical regarding this matter....

Most on the left here seem to aggrandize the fallacious or implausible aspects of this entire incident.

#60 | Posted by Kaikane at 2017-08-13 02:20 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

"No. Regardless, this thread isn't about Obama and it was wrong of me to even bring him up."

The comparison I should have made is to the abortion clinic bombers, who really could have been called radical Christian terrorists. Nobody insisted they be called that though. Calling them domestic terrorists is enough.

#61 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-13 02:49 PM | Reply

You all need to cut the equivalence crap. The white supremacists and black lives matter are not in any way morally equivalent. When black lives matter marches and says black lives matter they are saying black lives matter too. They are asking to be included in the protections everyone else takes for granted. They are not asking for ir trying to do anything to hold down others. When the neo Nazi KKK unite the right republican base chants blood and soil and white lives matter they are arguing that they deserve MORE rights and that ONLY white lived matter.

#62 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-08-13 02:52 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 7

#62 - Close the thread, Hatter has won this debate. I wish I could give more than a "Newsworthy" flag to give this comment, hit the nail on the head!

#63 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2017-08-13 02:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

What can that family do to please you stinkin libs?

Ivanka Trump, daughter of President Donald Trump who also serves as an adviser to him, caught flak on social media Sunday after she took to her Twitter account to condemn white supremacy and Nazism.

"There should be no place in society for racism, white supremacy and neo-nazis," Ivanka wrote. "We must all come together as Americans -- and be one country UNITED. #Charlottesville."

#64 | Posted by Sniper at 2017-08-13 03:00 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

Yes, Ivanka and Melania might somehow salvage the next 3.5 years. Nobody is unhappy about that. Just unhappy that it has to happen in the first place.

#65 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-13 03:04 PM | Reply

#64 - This is NOT a Drumpf family thing, this is a BLOTUS thing. I don't give two ----- what the princess thinks, or what her assistant tweets for her. I didn't see where she caught flack. If she did, it was likely from her daddy's base, the neo-Nazis.

The words that came from Ivanka's account should have been the words that spouted from Drumpf's c*ck holster. He should have cut short his round of golf, and come before the cameras to blast the White Nationalists, their ideology and the violence that they engender wherever they go. Instead, he blamed both sides, which is weak BS and perceived as a wink to the neo-Nazis. The fact is, Drumpf understands where his bread is buttered, and he doesn't want to alienate the most loyal portion of his base.

#66 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2017-08-13 03:20 PM | Reply

#51 | POSTED BY FEDERALIST
"Freedom of speech is freedom of speech."
Followed immediately by:
"If the anti's never showed up no one would of been hurt."

What do those two sentences have to do with each other?
Nothing at all!
But it's the best excuse for violence you could come up with, so you went with it.

#67 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-13 03:28 PM | Reply

"I seem to remember certain people defending a certain president for not calling out radical Islamic terrorism for what it is. "

Yoi do?

I recall people upset because Obama couldn't even bring himself to say the words "Islamic terrorism," and calling him out for not saying it.

But I also remember those people were liars.

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-13 03:34 PM | Reply

"Antifa is a toxic group."

Freedom of speech.
Funny how the only group you've called toxic here is the one that didn't kill anyone.

#69 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-13 03:35 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

There most certainly is a Deep State. It consists of the entire unelected bureaucracy that makes sure the same things happen regardless who is elected. It is what Eisenhower called the military industrial complex, the CIA, NSA, most of the State Department and a myriad of other Federal Agencies. They are free to murder, torture and squander money like there's no tomorrow. Their most important characteristic is they are not accountable to anyone for anything they do.

The real Deep State has nothing whatsoever to do with Trump's definition of the Deep State, who to him are simply Obama loyalists. When it comes to how the Government operates Trump isn't just completely clueless, he isn't interested in learning and could not care less. He wants to be popular and make millions. Nothing else matters to him.

#70 | Posted by bayviking at 2017-08-13 03:45 PM | Reply

So if non-liberals protest and liberals do not like your protest you are the problem. But if liberals protest and you don't like their protest. You are still the problem. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. If the anti's never showed up no one would of been hurt.

#51 | POSTED BY FEDERALIST AT 2017-08-13 01:01 PM

No.if Nazis protest they are the problem. If Nazis dont like liberals protest they are still the problem. There is no scenario where Nazis are not a problem. They have the right to there opinions but their opinions are never right

#71 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-08-13 03:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

As I remember Obama did not condemn the actions of Antifa and BLM, Mater of fact the had BLM invited to the White House. So why the double standard?

#10 | Posted by docnjo

Only a dumb bigot would equate BLM and the KKK.

BLM is fighting for equality and the right to not be assassinated by the police. You know what the KKK is fighting for.

#72 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-13 03:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"There should be no place in society for racism, white supremacy and neo-nazis," Ivanka wrote. "We must all come together as Americans -- and be one country UNITED. #Charlottesville."

#64 | Posted by Sniper

Kind of rings hollow when she spends every day helping her father's racist, white supremacist administration.

#73 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-13 03:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Speaks,

BLM has toxic elements and some of its leaders are deplorable radicals who celebrate the random killing of cops.

White supremacists and Neo-Nazis are wholly toxic.

BLM is a muddled group comprised of some toxic people and some people who are trying to shine a light on injustice.

These alt-right groups are wholly toxic, at least as far as I can tell.

BLM has been a contributing factor in the Ferguson Effect. which has harmed the very people BLM purports to support.

The KKK and Neo-Nazi's are promulgating century-old racism and hate.

#74 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-13 04:38 PM | Reply

What is the Ferguson Effect?

#75 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-13 04:43 PM | Reply

"So we can see liberals think a violent response is necessary to inhibit ideas they find unacceptable. "

You can see that, huh?
Give us an example where liberals inhibit ideas with violence.

#77 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-13 04:54 PM | Reply

#74 Thank you for acknowledging BLM is not a toxic group, even if elements of it are. I agree that the hatred which leads to violence on both sides must be called out. In fairness to BL2, that is in part what he was trying to do yesterday. The photo he linked to depicted a black man with a can spraying what looked like a flame of fire and which was directed at some White Supremacists. I never thought of BL2 as a racist. I never thought of him as a hater, in general, either before yesterday when he told us how much he hated us all. There are elements on the left that promote killing cops and who are basically Black Supremacists, and those people can not be given a pass but must be condemned as well. I think that is what Trump was trying to say too, but he needed to be more specific in condemning the alt-right and in not lumping all the counter-protesters in with the violent ones.

#78 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-13 05:16 PM | Reply

The Ferguson effect is a right wing fantasy that says because of blm police are getting randomly shot by blacks and BLM supporters despite 3 basic facts:

1) police deaths by firearms are at a 60 year low

2) in cases where political affiliation is known the majority of the shooters have been right wing sovereign citizens

3) Not 1 shooter has been a member of BLM. The only link is that some of them have been black which to the right wing means BLM

#79 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-08-13 05:31 PM | Reply

"The Ferguson effect is a right wing fantasy that says because of blm police are getting randomly shot by blacks and BLM supporters"

I find it interesting that this JefFJ guy who I feel I know pretty well and seems like an okay guy is this glaringly bigoted.

#80 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-13 06:07 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

This march was to protest the removal of a confederate statue.

The confederacy was defeated.

How many Saddam statues remain in Iraq? Or Gaddafi statues in Libya?

This march was to protest the extermination of some values some southerners hold dear in their hearts.

Mainly, white supremacy.

#81 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-08-13 08:05 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Anyone get the male to female ratio of the White Power protesters event?

I was sure Mackris would have something to say about it!

#82 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-13 08:45 PM | Reply

john47 aligns himself with Nazis, nice to know

#50 | Posted by truthhurts at 2017-08-13

How does your brain work? Your remark is a perfect non sequitur.

#83 | Posted by john47 at 2017-08-13 08:54 PM | Reply

The statement -- issued more than 36 hours after the protests began -- came in an email sent to reporters in the president's traveling press pool, and was attributed to an unnamed spokesperson. It was not attributed directly to Mr. Trump, who often uses Twitter to communicate directly on controversial topics.

The statement was sent "in response" to questions about Mr. Trump's widely criticized remarks, in which he blamed the unrest "on many sides" while speaking on Saturday before an event for military veterans at his golf resort in Bedminster, N.J., where the president is on vacation.
-nyt

#84 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-08-13 11:03 PM | Reply

Bill Kristol‏ @BillKristol
Bill Kristol Retweeted ABC News
WH staff told Trump they had to put out a statement, but couldn't prevail on him to say it himself, in the first person. A revealing moment.

ABC News‏ @ABC
NEW: White House clarifies Pres. Trump's statement after Charlottesville: "He condemns all forms of violence, bigotry and hatred"

He wouldn't say it himself in 1st person. Why not?

#85 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-13 11:08 PM | Reply

They wouldn't even attribute the statement to anyone. No WH spokesperson was named.

#86 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-08-13 11:21 PM | Reply

The POTUS supports those carrying Nazi flags. Protects them.

#87 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-08-13 11:23 PM | Reply

ACLU of Virginia

@ACLUVA

Not sure who provoked first. Both sides were hitting each other at Justice Park before police arrived. #Charlottesville
9:39 AM - Aug 12, 2017

Where were the police? Where was Terry Mcauliffe?

twitchy.com

#88 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-08-13 11:30 PM | Reply

There is little evidence that donald supports or protects anything other than his own image, and he's not very good at that to begin with.

#89 | Posted by REDIAL at 2017-08-13 11:31 PM | Reply

The Ferguson effect is pretty well-documented.

Google it and do some reading and research.

#90 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-13 11:34 PM | Reply

#89

I respectfully disagree, Redial.

He's been a boon to comb-overs and overcooked steaks garnished with Heinz ketchup. If that doesn't elevate a culture I don't know what does.

#91 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-13 11:36 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

There is little evidence that donald supports or protects anything other than his own image, and he's not very good at that to begin with.

#89 | POSTED BY REDIAL AT 2017-08-13 11:31 PM | FLAG:

Not at all true.

How statements around this issue were carefully crafted. The law enforcement was carefully orchestrated.

#92 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-08-13 11:40 PM | Reply

#88 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2017-08-13 11:30 PM | FLAG:

When the Nazis attack, you recommend just taking it.

Noted

#93 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-08-13 11:42 PM | Reply

The Ferguson effect is the idea that increased scrutiny of police following the 2014 shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri has led to an increased crime rate (or sometimes increased murder rate) in major U.S. cities. The mechanism usually suggested is that police have less vigorous enforcement in situations that might lead to backlash, though other mechanisms are suggested. The term was coined by Doyle Sam Dotson III, the chief of the St. Louis police, to account for an increased murder rate in some U.S. cities following the Ferguson unrest.[1]

The concept has been criticized by some academics and politicians as being inaccurate or non-existent, including former President Barack Obama.[2][3]

********

So it's a "concept."

Another concept you may have heard, and agree with, is that the Civil War wasn't about slavery.

#94 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 01:05 AM | Reply

BLOTUS commits reverse Godwin.

#95 | Posted by ichiro at 2017-08-14 01:09 AM | Reply

The Ferguson effect is pretty well-documented.

Assuming it is well documented, is that not a good thing?

The scholars that lead to the question seem to lean it that direction.

Could de-policing [the "Ferguson Effect"] be a good thing? Officer beliefs that the current climate has made the job riskier and has increased tensions between the police and the African-American community -- leading them to feel reluctant to carry out some of their law enforcement duties (Pew Research Center, 2017) -- are certainly issues that must be addressed. However, if a negative event causes officers to retreat from aggressive tactics (e.g., frequent pedestrian stops and searches) and high discretion arrests/citations for "quality of life" offenses, then such a change might be beneficial from a public perception and perceived legitimacy standpoint (see Gau & Brunson, 2010; Morgan & Pally, 2016). A substantial body of research continues to find that unfavorable citizen perceptions of police are, in part, the result of contentious personal and vicarious experiences with officers (Brunson, 2007; Decker, 1981; Webb & Marshall, 1995; Weitzer & Tuch, 2002). Often, those who view the police negatively cite harassment and unfair targeting/profiling in addition to officer demeanor characterized as discourteous and verbally abusive (Brunson, 2007; Gau & Brunson, 2010; Weitzer, 2000). Thus, reductions in these types of aggressive strategies might limit the opportunities for antagonistic police-citizen interactions. The key will be for future research to disentangle whether such a relationship exists and, if so, if it comes at the cost of increased crime.

#96 | Posted by et_al at 2017-08-14 01:16 AM | Reply

So the only choice for the people of Ferguson was between being victimized by criminals or victimized by criminals in blue?

There's a better way - have honest police. Cripes!

#97 | Posted by YAV at 2017-08-14 05:59 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Trump Attacks Merck Chief Kenneth Frazier for Quitting Advisory Panel
By GLENN THRUSH
August 14, 2017"

But still hasn't blamed the neo-Nazis

#98 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-08-14 10:04 AM | Reply

Where were the police? Where was Terry Mcauliffe?

twitchy.com

#88 | Posted by nullifidian

Alright nulli comind down on the nazi defense side too.

This thread is an interesting scorecard that you wont soon be allowed to forget.

#99 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 11:08 AM | Reply

Of course he won't condemn them. Let's not forget that Donald Trump supports the use of violence against protesters.

"I love the old days, you know what they used to do to guys like that when they were in a place like this? They'd be carried out in a stretcher, folks. Oh, it's true...I'd like to punch him in the face." - Trump Feb 2016

Maybe Trump will pick up the tab for James Fields' defense since he said "knock the crap out of them...I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees"

#100 | Posted by johnny_hotsauce at 2017-08-14 11:09 AM | Reply

In Speaks' world calling out the lack of action by the authorities (he'll rip cops to shreds on just about every other topic) or the violence perpetrated by Antifa at this event, means you side with Nazi's.

#101 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 11:10 AM | Reply

In Speaks' world calling out the lack of action by the authorities (he'll rip cops to shreds on just about every other topic) or the violence perpetrated by Antifa at this event, means you side with Nazi's.

#101 | Posted by JeffJ

No in my world, the real world, anyone PRETENDING this is anyone's fault but the nazis is a nazi apoligist.

Yourself included.

You take the same approach as trump - "both sides to blame" Congrats. YOu and the ------------ see eye to eye on racism.

#102 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 11:16 AM | Reply

Screw you.

I have been condemning this crap all day long.

You are incapable of typing a post that doesn't contain a straw man. It's pathetic.

#103 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 11:18 AM | Reply

Yeah, I can put up with a lot of disagreement between my ideas (which lean much more toward the progressive side of things) and those that run contrary to my ideas of values, morals, and the like. I'm very much live and let live. Due to this disgusting display by MANY of the "conservatives" on this site, so many of you knuckle-dragging neanderthals are now on my killfile. I'm sure that means nothing to you. And I don't care. F you and your BS. You're not worth reading or listening to. You've lost all credibility that adheres to decency and morality. You belong with trash in prison and on death row. I know many of you fools are older. Good. Meet your timely end while sticking to these "values" you claim to have, knowing that the rest of us here will not miss your passing. In fact, your eventual passing is *required* for our country to move forward. You are a cancer. A stain. Something your own grand-children will look back on one day and feel shame for. I don't killfile easily. But afk, federalist, nulli, jeez the list just goes on and on. Thank you for showing your true colors. You no longer exist in my world and already my world is better for it. And Jeff, you're coming awfully ------- close. FFS people. I'm truly disappointed in all of your lack of humanity. I feel for your offspring and hope they somehow don't become saddled with the same deficiencies you all have. Maybe they can turn out to be human.

#104 | Posted by deadseasquirrel at 2017-08-14 11:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Screw you.

I have been condemning this crap all day long.

You are incapable of typing a post that doesn't contain a straw man. It's pathetic.

#103 | Posted by JeffJ

Yeah you condemn nazis AND anti nazis.

That false equivilance means youre siding with nazis.

#105 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 11:52 AM | Reply

Just like trump.

#106 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 11:53 AM | Reply

Yeah you condemn nazis AND anti nazis.
That false equivilance means youre siding with nazis.

#105 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

You're full of ----.

I can turn that back on you:

You give ALL left-wing violence a complete pass because Nazi's.

#107 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 11:58 AM | Reply

In this case, I'm blaming the Neo-Nazi's because they are the ones to blame.

I've never seen you condemn an act of left-wing violence. Not once.

#108 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 11:59 AM | Reply

Yeah, I can put up with a lot of disagreement between my ideas (which lean much more toward the progressive side of things) and those that run contrary to my ideas of values, morals, and the like. I'm very much live and let live. Due to this disgusting display by MANY of the "conservatives" on this site, so many of you knuckle-dragging neanderthals are now on my killfile. I'm sure that means nothing to you. And I don't care. F you and your BS. You're not worth reading or listening to. You've lost all credibility that adheres to decency and morality. You belong with trash in prison and on death row. I know many of you fools are older. Good. Meet your timely end while sticking to these "values" you claim to have, knowing that the rest of us here will not miss your passing. In fact, your eventual passing is *required* for our country to move forward. You are a cancer. A stain. Something your own grand-children will look back on one day and feel shame for. I don't killfile easily. But afk, federalist, nulli, jeez the list just goes on and on. Thank you for showing your true colors. You no longer exist in my world and already my world is better for it. And Jeff, you're coming awfully ------- close. FFS people. I'm truly disappointed in all of your lack of humanity. I feel for your offspring and hope they somehow don't become saddled with the same deficiencies you all have. Maybe they can turn out to be human.

#104 | POSTED BY DEADSEASQUIRREL AT 2017-08-14 11:46 AM | REPLY | FLAG: Drama Queen

#109 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 12:00 PM | Reply

Yeah you condemn nazis AND anti nazis.
That false equivilance means youre siding with nazis.
#105 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY
You're full of ----.
I can turn that back on you:
You give ALL left-wing violence a complete pass because Nazi's.
#107 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

I think you just want that to be true to protect Trump.

#110 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-08-14 12:03 PM | Reply

"I've never seen you condemn an act of left-wing violence."

Perhaps to avoid being a Pollyanna like you, he only condemns the most heinous acts, like murder.

#111 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 12:10 PM | Reply

#110

I don't give a crap about Trump.

Perhaps to avoid being a Pollyanna like you, he only condemns the most heinous acts, like murder.
#111 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Floyd Corkins

James Hodkinson

But those guys don't count, right?

#112 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 12:16 PM | Reply

--I don't believe in the Deep State. I think that's a Nazis fiction.
Is that why Bill Moyers promotes the concept on his website?
billmoyers.com

#52 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

If you actually read the article, you'd know the Deep State Moyers is talking about has nothing to do with the Deep State referenced by alt-right groups.

#113 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-08-14 12:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Comw on, who didn't condemn Floyd Corkins???

A better one is Joe Stack.

#114 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 12:27 PM | Reply

You give ALL left-wing violence a complete pass because Nazi's.

#107 | Posted by JeffJ

False equivalence is all you have.

There is no left equivalent to the things going on on the right.

#115 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 12:58 PM | Reply

In this case, I'm blaming the Neo-Nazi's because they are the ones to blame.

#108 | Posted by JeffJ

That blame is wiped away with your deflections to antifa and BLM.

Might as well say "the nazi's actions during the holocaust where horrible, but the jews were involved too."

#116 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 01:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#116

NW... false equivalencies have become standard fare on the right.

#117 | Posted by Corky at 2017-08-14 01:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

There is no left equivalent to the things going on on the right.

#115 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

That is true. It's conservative speakers at Universities who are being shouted down and rioted off campus by violent leftists.

It is Republicans who had to cancel a parade due to threats of left-wing violence against them.

It was the Republican POTUS' inauguration that had left-wingers engaging in violent protest.

You're right, there is no equivalence between the two.

That blame is wiped away with your deflections to antifa and BLM.

In this particular instance, the Neo-Nazi's and white supremicists are the ones to blame.

In many, many other instances, it's left-wing groups like Antifa who are to blame. I am very comfortable blaming neo-Nazi's and white supremacists for the hate they spew. Apparently, you are incapable of doing the same regarding left-wing hate. Applying your logic, this means you support left-wing violence.

#118 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:11 PM | Reply

That is true. It's conservative speakers at Universities who are being shouted down and rioted off campus by violent leftists.

It is Republicans who had to cancel a parade due to threats of left-wing violence against them.

It was the Republican POTUS' inauguration that had left-wingers engaging in violent protest.

#118 | Posted by JeffJ

It's not "conservative speakers" it's bigots spreading hate that are being chased from the public square as they should.

The right is marching for and spreading HATE. The left is reacting angrily to that hate. It's not a "both sides doing it" situation.

It's hate and the reaction to hate.

BLM is protesting blacks being assassinated by cops, and the system allowing cops to get away with it.
Neo nazis are protesting having brown people in the country, which they think was meant for their own superior race only.
Stop acting like those are even in the same universe. You're not that stupid.

#119 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 01:16 PM | Reply

Hating hate is not the equivalent of Hating whole swaths of American citizens.

Antifa's worst does not rise to the level of Alt-rightists average day.

Tell us how they are equivalent when Antifa starts lynching white people or dragging them to their death behind pickup trucks. Until then your false equivalencies have no basis in reality

#120 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-08-14 01:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's not "conservative speakers" it's bigots spreading hate that are being chased from the public square as they should

Heather MacDonald is not a bigot spreading hate. Nor is Charles Murray.

#121 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:20 PM | Reply

Heather MacDonald is not a bigot spreading hate. Nor is Charles Murray.

#121 | Posted by JeffJ

Neither was the lady run over by a neo nazi.

I'm sure she'd rather be in charles murray's shoes.

#122 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 01:21 PM | Reply

Hating hate

The problem is the people who are defining "hate" are defining it as "anything I disagree with".

The right is marching for and spreading HATE. The left is reacting angrily to that hate. It's not a "both sides doing it" situation.

Neo-Nazi's and white supremacists are not "the right". They are fringe groups that are reviled by the right.

#123 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:22 PM | Reply

Heather MacDonald is not a bigot spreading hate. Nor is Charles Murray.
#121 | Posted by JeffJ
Neither was the lady run over by a neo nazi.
I'm sure she'd rather be in charles murray's shoes.

#122 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Oh. So the fact that Heather MacDonald and Charles Murray weren't killed, totally justifies the actions taken against them.

Can you be intellectually honest, just once? Please.

#124 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:24 PM | Reply

I guess you give Floyd Corkins and James Hodgkinson passes too. Because they didn't actually kill anyone.

#125 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:25 PM | Reply

"President Donald Trump is saying that "racism is evil" as he condemns the KKK, neo-Nazis and white supremacists as "criminals and thugs."

www.dailyprogress.com

Too little, too late.

Having to be forced to condemn this part of his Base days late only allows them to say that he was forced to.... which is true, Heil Trump!

#126 | Posted by Corky at 2017-08-14 01:25 PM | Reply

Jeff.... take a hint:

www.drudge.com

#127 | Posted by Corky at 2017-08-14 01:27 PM | Reply

"In many, many other instances, it's left-wing groups like Antifa who are to blame. I am very comfortable blaming neo-Nazi's and white supremacists for the hate they spew. Apparently, you are incapable of doing the same regarding left-wing hate."

JeffJ, now you're conflating hate with violence.

You seem to be saying hate speech can lead to violence, which is somewhat contradictory to your purported hard line on the First Amendnent when it comes to hate speech.

#128 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 01:32 PM | Reply

JeffJ, now you're conflating hate with violence.

Hate is hate and violence is violence. There is nothing to conflate.

#129 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:35 PM | Reply

"Neo-Nazi's and white supremacists are not "the right". They are fringe groups that are reviled by the right."

LMFAO.

Let me know when GOP politicians ahree with removing statues celebrating the Confederacy. Then you'll have a point.

#130 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 01:36 PM | Reply

"It was the Republican POTUS' inauguration that had left-wingers engaging in violent protest."

No, not true left-wingers. A radical fringe. The real left protest against Trump was the day after the inauguration when millions across the world gathered in totally peaceful rallies. Just as you don't want people to say the alt-right is the right, please don't consider the alt-left the left.

#131 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 01:36 PM | Reply

You seem to be saying hate speech can lead to violence, which is somewhat contradictory to your purported hard line on the First Amendnent when it comes to hate speech.
#128 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Hate speech can lead to violence. When it does, it's the violence that gets prosecuted. There are instances where incitement is prosecuted, but those instances are rare.

#132 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:37 PM | Reply

"Hate is hate and violence is violence. There is nothing to conflate."

In that case, you changed topics, from condemnig violence to condemning hate speech.

#133 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 01:38 PM | Reply

No, not true left-wingers. A radical fringe. The real left protest against Trump was the day after the inauguration when millions across the world gathered in totally peaceful rallies. Just as you don't want people to say the alt-right is the right, please don't consider the alt-left the left.

#131 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

I'm fine with that. But then, I'm not defending the actions of the alt-right like Snoofy and Speaks are of the alt-left.

#134 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:38 PM | Reply

I'm condemning both.

Nothing wrong with condemning hate speech as long as in so doing we recognize that the 1st Amendment protects it just as the 1st Amendment protects my right to condemn it.

#135 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:40 PM | Reply

"I'm not defending the actions of the alt-right like Snoofy and Speaks are of the alt-left."

Which actions am I defending? Be specific. Any of them violent actions?

#136 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 01:41 PM | Reply

The confederacy is part of our history. Attempts to white-wash that are counter-productive.

#137 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:41 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I'm condemning both.
Nothing wrong with condemning hate speech as long as in so doing we recognize that the 1st Amendment protects it just as the 1st Amendment protects my right to condemn it.

#135 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too, just like Trump. It doesn't work.

#138 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-08-14 01:41 PM | Reply

Which actions am I defending? Be specific. Any of them violent actions?

#136 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I lumped you in with Speaks.

Sorry about that.

#139 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:42 PM | Reply

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too, just like Trump. It doesn't work.

#138 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT

Please expound.

#140 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:42 PM | Reply

"The confederacy is part of our history. Attempts to white-wash that are counter-productive."

JeffJ.
The statues ARE the whitewash.
How do you not see this???

#141 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 01:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Neo-Nazi's and white supremacists are not "the right". They are fringe groups that are reviled by the right.

#123 | Posted by JeffJ

If they were reviled by the right they wouldn't vote consistently republican and the republican president wouldn't have such a hard time condemning them.

And he wouldn't have hired the head of a racist news site to work in the white house.

The right has to play footsie with racists like they've been doing for 30 years in order to stay in power. There aren't enough rich greedy ------ to keep electing them so they've made a devil's bargain with america's bigots.

But feel free to act like it's not true and keep looking like a blind fool.

#142 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 01:45 PM | Reply

The confederacy is part of our history. Attempts to white-wash that are counter-productive.

#137 | Posted by JeffJ

Putting the confederacy in our museums instead of our town squares isn't white washing. It's a statement of our CURRENT values.

We shouldn't have confederate statues on display any more than germany should have nazi statues on display.

Christ look at yourself man. Look at what you're here arguing in favor of today.

#143 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 01:47 PM | Reply

The statues ARE the whitewash.

How so?

#144 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:48 PM | Reply

If they were reviled by the right they wouldn't vote consistently republican and the republican president wouldn't have such a hard time condemning them.

He just did. In very specific terms. 2 days too late, perhaps.

#145 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:49 PM | Reply

The right has to play footsie with racists like they've been doing for 30 years in order to stay in power

Both political parties pander to ------ people. Politics is ugly.

#146 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Both political parties pander to ------ people. Politics is ugly.

#146 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 01:50 PM | REPLY

False equivalence from the usual suspect.

#147 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 01:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

How so?

#144 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 01:48 PM | FLAG:

You don't see how celebrating violent racists (focusing on everything but their racism) with statues and the like is whitewashing? How did your brain learn human speech?

#148 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 01:55 PM | Reply

He just did. In very specific terms. 2 days too late, perhaps.

#145 | Posted by JeffJ

2 days late is the same as not at all. He was able to condemn "ALL GROUPS" immediately.

And he did it because he wants the support of those bigots. It's all he has left.

#149 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 01:57 PM | Reply

Both political parties pander to ------ people. Politics is ugly.

#146 | Posted by JeffJ

You're pathetic.

#150 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 01:57 PM | Reply

Why hasn't Bannon been fired? Why was he hired at all?

#151 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 01:59 PM | Reply

"The statues ARE the whitewash.
How so?"

How so?
Who do we erect staues for, JeffJ.
Heroes.
That's how.

#152 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 02:00 PM | Reply

There were plenty of confederate soldiers who were heroic on the battlefield. That they were fighting for the wrong team doesn't negate that fact. Also, they were US citizens and were pardoned for their actions.

#153 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:03 PM | Reply

There were plenty of confederate soldiers who were heroic on the battlefield. That they were fighting for the wrong team doesn't negate that fact.

#153 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:03 PM | FLAG:

It completely and totally does. You are an apologist for racists. Like always. Be ashamed.

#154 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:04 PM | Reply

You're pathetic.

#150 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Look in the mirror.

Why hasn't Bannon been fired? Why was he hired at all?

#151 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Excellent question. He should have been fired just for being creepy-looking.

#155 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:05 PM | Reply

It completely and totally does. You are an apologist for racists. Like always. Be ashamed.

#154 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Please point out where I'm apologizing for racists.

#156 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:05 PM | Reply

Just in case that's not crystal clear:

9/11 is part of our history too, so it should be okay to put up a statue of Mohammad Atta at Ground Zero. And a Sirhan Sirhan, a James Earl Ray, and a Lee Harvey Oswald, in the places where they changed history.

And removing that statue just because some snowflakes find it offensive, well that's an attempt to whitewash our history!

If you still don't get it after this explanation, then I'm sorry but you're a lost cause.

#157 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 02:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

There were plenty of confederate soldiers who were heroic on the battlefield. That they were fighting for the wrong team doesn't negate that fact. Also, they were US citizens and were pardoned for their actions.

#153 | Posted by JeffJ

I'm sure there were heroic nazi's too. YOu're saying germany should have statues on display?

#158 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 02:07 PM | Reply

Please point out where I'm apologizing for racists.

#156 | Posted by JeffJ

ALL UP AND DOWN THIS THREAD MORON.

#159 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 02:08 PM | Reply

I don't have a problem with the removal of confederate statues. If I haven't been clear about that then please accept my apology.

I also don't have a problem with the fact that some confederate statues still exist.

#160 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:09 PM | Reply

Both political parties pander to ------ people. Politics is ugly.

#146 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 01:50 PMFlag: ReceivedFunnyNewsworthy

Part of the reason why I don't belong to party anymore.

#161 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2017-08-14 02:09 PM | Reply

Please point out where I'm apologizing for racists.

#156 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:05 PM | FLAG:

You were saying something about heroic soldiers in the fight to preserve slavery, right idiot? How is that anything but apologizing for racism, moron?

#162 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:09 PM | Reply

ALL UP AND DOWN THIS THREAD MORON.

#159 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Please provide a specific example, Mr. defender of left-wing violence.

#163 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:10 PM | Reply

I also don't have a problem with the fact that some confederate statues still exist.

#160 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:09 PM | FLAG:

Because you are a racist apologist.

#164 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:10 PM | Reply

There were plenty of confederate soldiers who were heroic on the battlefield. That they were fighting for the wrong team doesn't negate that fact. Also, they were US citizens and were pardoned for their actions."

The statues aren't of "plenty of soldiers."
They are leaders of the Confederacy.
Regardless of their pardon after the fact, they engaged in armed rebellion, and you think it's appropriate to make heroes of them.

Now, if every statue was of a sad Confederate general surrendering, maybe the statues wouldn't be a whitewash if history.

#165 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 02:10 PM | Reply

Please provide a specific example, Mr. defender of left-wing violence.

#163 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:10 PM | FLAG:

Besides, defending the honoring of violent racists with statues and engaging in it yourself (all those "heroic" confederates)?

#166 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:12 PM | Reply

You were saying something about heroic soldiers in the fight to preserve slavery, right idiot? How is that anything but apologizing for racism, moron?

#162 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Plenty of confederate soldiers committed acts of heroism on the battlefield fighting for the wrong cause. That is a statement of fact with no 'apology' for racism whatsoever. Maybe this degree of nuance is too much for a simpleton such as yourself.

#167 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:12 PM | Reply

"Plenty of confederate soldiers committed acts of heroism on the battlefield fighting for the wrong cause."

I'm sure you think so, racist filth.

#168 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Regardless of their pardon after the fact, they engaged in armed rebellion, and you think it's appropriate to make heroes of them.

I think it's up to the people who are living in the towns where these are erected. In more and more instances, the people want these things removed from the public square. As someone with libertarian leanings, I am totally good with that.

#169 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:14 PM | Reply

Plenty of confederate soldiers committed acts of heroism on the battlefield fighting for the wrong cause. That is a statement of fact with no 'apology' for racism whatsoever. Maybe this degree of nuance is too much for a simpleton such as yourself.

#167 | Posted by JeffJ

Wrong again dummy. HEROISM implies a nobility of cause. Maintaining slavery is not noble.

By your definition, nazis should still have statues up in germany.

#170 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 02:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Plenty of confederate soldiers committed acts of heroism on the battlefield fighting for the wrong cause."
I'm sure you think so, racist filth.

#168 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Someone buy Dirk a box of kleenex. I think he's going to cry.

#171 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:15 PM | Reply

"That is a statement of fact with no 'apology' for racism whatsoever."

Heroism is not a statement of fact. It is a value judgement. To call violent racists heroes for their actions in the course of their violent support of racism is a value judgement: a vile one.

#172 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"Plenty of confederate soldiers committed acts of heroism on the battlefield fighting for the wrong cause."

Thats fine, but that's not what the statues are celebrating.

Plenty of Nazis were heroic too, right?

Since plenty of Nazis were heroic, and since we fought the Nazis, it should be okay to honor Nazi heroism with a statue.

And what about the brave 19 men who died for what they believed in on 9/11. Dying for what you believe in, that's like the pinnacle of heroism, isn't it, JeffJ.

#173 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 02:17 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Someone buy Dirk a box of kleenex. I think he's going to cry.

#171 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:15 PM | FLAG:

Is your mother proud of you? Coming online and apologizing for the worst people in the world? How does a creature like you even function in the world?

#174 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:17 PM | Reply

Wrong again dummy. HEROISM implies a nobility of cause. Maintaining slavery is not noble.
By your definition, nazis should still have statues up in germany.

#170 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

I disagree. A heroic act on the battlefield is a heroic act, even for those fighting on the wrong side.

#175 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:17 PM | Reply

"He just did. In very specific terms. 2 days too late, perhaps."

Think on this for a minute, Jeff.

He took 2 days to condemn violence... An outright ATTACK by people whose stated goals mean that they actively want to kill his daughter and soon in law.

This shows him to not just be a failure as a president, but as a father and a human being.

#176 | Posted by RevDarko at 2017-08-14 02:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Is your mother proud of you? Coming online and apologizing for the worst people in the world? How does a creature like you even function in the world?

#174 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN A

Hey Dirk....racism. Boo!

#177 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:18 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

I think it's up to the people who are living in the towns...

#169 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:14 PM | FLAG:

...whether or not to be racist? Yeah, they tried that already, you unbelievable nimrod.

#178 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:19 PM | Reply

He took 2 days to condemn violence... An outright ATTACK by people whose stated goals mean that they actively want to kill his daughter and soon in law.
This shows him to not just be a failure as a president, but as a father and a human being.

#176 | POSTED BY REVDARKO

That's a fair criticism.

#179 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:19 PM | Reply

Hey Dirk....racism. Boo!

#177 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:18 PM | FLAG:

Yeah, we all see your true colors.

#180 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:19 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I think it's up to the people who are living in the towns where these are erected."

So people who came to Charlotsville from outside Virginia to protest the removal of a Confederate statue were kinda out of line...

#181 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 02:20 PM | Reply

I disagree. A heroic act on the battlefield is a heroic act, even for those fighting on the wrong side.

#175 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:17 PM | FLAG:

So you are fine with honoring evil people for doing evil things so long as they do them in a way you find laudable? Your ethics are beyond perverse.

#182 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:21 PM | Reply

I think it's up to the people who are living in the towns...
#169 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:14 PM | FLAG:
...whether or not to be racist? Yeah, they tried that already, you unbelievable nimrod.

#178 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Erecting a statue is not the same as enacting Jim Crow laws.

I hear the professional cuddling industry is taking off. Perhaps after you've finished with your cry you should hire a cuddler. I can send you some Play dough to play with along with some crayons and a coloring book.

#183 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:21 PM | Reply

"There were plenty of confederate soldiers who were heroic on the battlefield. That they were fighting for the wrong team doesn't negate that fact. Also, they were US citizens and were pardoned for their actions."

Also, a lot of them weren't fighting to keep slavery alive. They were fighting for states rights. Yes, I know that the state right that the South wanted to maintain was slavery, but I'm not sure every Confederate soldier thought of it that way. I know not every Union soldier that they were fighting to end slavery. Many were merely fighting to maintain the Union. The Confederacy deserves to have its story told. Their generals deserve to have statues erected for them, just not in the public square. They did lose the war; they were on the wrong side of history. Museums and battlefields are the places their memories should be recognized and studied.

#184 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 02:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

So you are fine with honoring evil people for doing evil things so long as they do them in a way you find laudable? Your ethics are beyond perverse.

#182 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I'm fine with recognizing heroic acts even when committed in the wrong cause. Like I said, probably too nuanced for you.

I would staunchly oppose having a confederate statue erected in my town and would take all legal means to prevent it from happening. But, if a neighboring town wants to erect one, that is up to them.

#185 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:24 PM | Reply

"Erecting a statue is not the same as enacting Jim Crow laws."

A difference of degree and not of kind, buffoon. Is that what you tell yourself so you can sleep at night, that you only support symbolic bigotry?

#186 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:24 PM | Reply

Erecting a statue is not the same as enacting Jim Crow laws.

No, but it can be a daily reminder of those laws and of slavery.

#187 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 02:24 PM | Reply

#184 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

Perfectly stated. Gets a NW.

#188 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:25 PM | Reply

"I'm fine with recognizing heroic acts even when committed in the wrong cause. Like I said, probably too nuanced for you."

You are confusing "nuanced" with "morally bankrupt." Your ethics makes you an apologist for the worst people in the world. You, of course, don't care.

#189 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:26 PM | Reply

"I'm fine with recognizing heroic acts even when committed in the wrong cause. Like I said, probably too nuanced for you."

A lot of people probably think Hitler and the Nazi were heroic, but Germany knows better than to erect monuments to them in downtown Berlin.

#190 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 02:26 PM | Reply

"Also, a lot of them weren't fighting to keep slavery alive. "

They sure as hell were, whether they knew it or not.

#191 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:27 PM | Reply

"I'm fine with recognizing heroic acts even when committed in the wrong cause."

Are you now?
Remember how Bill Maher got fired from ABC?

#192 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 02:27 PM | Reply

"Erecting a statue is not the same as enacting Jim Crow laws."
A difference of degree and not of kind, buffoon. Is that what you tell yourself so you can sleep at night, that you only support symbolic bigotry?

#186 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I don't think confederate statues are appropriate in public squares. I don't support bigotry at all, unlike you.

#193 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:27 PM | Reply

Jeff'a "ethics" would be fine with a statue recognizing the athleticism of people who throw babies at spikes.

#194 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:28 PM | Reply

A lot of people probably think Hitler and the Nazi were heroic, but Germany knows better than to erect monuments to them in downtown Berlin.

#190 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

Agreed. And this is why we are seeing more and more confederate statues removed from public squares, because they are inappropriate.

#195 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:29 PM | Reply

"A heroic act on the battlefield is a heroic act, even for those fighting on the wrong side." - #175 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:17 PM

During World War II, Hitler decreed the Cross could be conferred on Germans and citizens of countries allied with Germany for exceptional bravery and/or leadership in the face of the enemy.

source

In this case, "the face of the enemy" would include American soldiers.

So the logical conclusion is that jeffj believes that killing American soldiers ("the enemy") is a "heroic act" even if those killing the American soldiers are on "the wrong side."

#196 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 02:29 PM | Reply

Jeff'a "ethics" would be fine with a statue recognizing the athleticism of people who throw babies at spikes.

#194 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

My ethics are geared toward freedom and liberty, unlike the bigotry that you regularly espouse.

#197 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:30 PM | Reply

"I don't think confederate statues are appropriate in public squares."

And yet you defend them. You even call Confederates heroic.

"I don't support bigotry at all, unlike you."

Childish retort. And we all no better, bigot. Your disgusting beliefs are on full display. Do your friends get to see this side of you?

#198 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:30 PM | Reply

Know better^

#199 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:31 PM | Reply

I've got to back Jeff up on the heroism thing.

Not all soldiers have a full understanding of what they're fighting for, historically. The civil war was replete with this kind of thing on both sides

Often, a soldier will only know what he's told by his superiors and that he needs to fight along side his fellow soldier.

If a soldier risks his own life to save a comrade in arms, even if both are fighting for a bad cause, is still committing an act of heroism, especially if neither of them KNOW they're cause is morally repugnant.

#200 | Posted by RevDarko at 2017-08-14 02:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

So the logical conclusion is that jeffj believes that killing American soldiers ("the enemy") is a "heroic act" even if those killing the American soldiers are on "the wrong side."

#196 | POSTED BY HANS

A nazi soldier who jumped on a grenade in order to save his comrades committed a heroic act.

#201 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:31 PM | Reply

"Also, a lot of them weren't fighting to keep slavery alive. "
They sure as hell were, whether they knew it or not.

Yes, I agree that's what they were doing ultimately, but that doesn't mean that maintaining slavery was the motivation behind their fighting.

#202 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 02:32 PM | Reply

"I don't think confederate statues are appropriate in public squares."

Bull, because you just said it's not really your place to say, outside of where you live.

You're okay with it elsewhere, if that's what people want.

Which is NOT THE SAME as "I don't think Confederate statues are appropriate in public squares."

#203 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 02:32 PM | Reply

"My ethics are geared toward freedom and liberty, "

What does honoring awful people have to do with either of those things? Supporting the honoring of the defenders of slavery is the OPPOSITE of supporting freedom and liberty, you simple creature.

#204 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:32 PM | Reply

Yes, I agree that's what they were doing ultimately, but that doesn't mean that maintaining slavery was the motivation behind their fighting.

#202 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY AT 2017-08-14 02:32 PM | FLAG:

Who cares what their motive was? Jeff the Buffon here thinks he is supporting the Good too...

#205 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:33 PM | Reply

#198 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2017-08-14 02:30 PM | FLAG: Profoundly Obtuse

#206 | Posted by Kaikane at 2017-08-14 02:34 PM | Reply

"A nazi soldier who jumped on a grenade in order to save his comrades committed a heroic act." - #201 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:31 PM

So those comrades could live on to kill Americans.

Apparently, you find that heroic.

#207 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 02:34 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

A nazi soldier who jumped on a grenade in order to save his comrades committed a heroic act.

#201 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:31 PM | FLAG:

...by prolonging a war? By preserving the lives of other Nazis so they can commit atrocities? By, in a word, creating a net loss to human happiness and well being?

How do you go through life with an ethos like that?

#208 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:35 PM | Reply

"I don't think confederate statues are appropriate in public squares."
And yet you defend them. You even call Confederates heroic.

Reading comprehension is fundamental. I didn't call Confederates heroic. I called acts of heroism on the battlefield heroic, because they are.

"I don't support bigotry at all, unlike you."
Childish retort.

Followed by:

And we all no 9sic) better, bigot. Your disgusting beliefs are on full display....

#198 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Self-retorting retort. Also, the only thing that is disgusting is your gross misrepresentation of my beliefs.

#209 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:35 PM | Reply

"Who cares what their motive was?"

I care because I care about truth. Whitewashing and/or history won't help us not to repeat it.

#210 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 02:36 PM | Reply

If a soldier risks his own life to save a comrade in arms, even if both are fighting for a bad cause, is still committing an act of heroism, especially if neither of them KNOW they're cause is morally repugnant.

#200 | POSTED BY REVDARKO AT 2017-08-14 02:31 PM | FLAG: | NEWSWORTHY 1

Please, that just adds intellectual dishonesty to their list of faults... Jeff can sympathize.

#211 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:37 PM | Reply

"I care because I care about truth."

We are discussing ethics. Again, who cares what their motive was.

"Whitewashing and/or history won't help us not to repeat it."

The statues are white washing.

#212 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:38 PM | Reply

"I don't think confederate statues are appropriate in public squares."
Bull, because you just said it's not really your place to say, outside of where you live.
You're okay with it elsewhere, if that's what people want.
Which is NOT THE SAME as "I don't think Confederate statues are appropriate in public squares."
#203 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

It is the same. I don't support authoritarianism, so if a neighboring town wants to put a statue of Gen. Lee in their park, so be it. If they do so I will then make the choice not to visit their town and patronize their businesses.

#213 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:38 PM | Reply

"A heroic act on the battlefield is a heroic act, even for those fighting on the wrong side." - #175 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:17 PM

And that was the rationalization used by those excusing Reagan when he honored the criminal Waffen-SS in Bitburg on the occasion of the 40th anniversary of V-E Day.

#214 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 02:38 PM | Reply

So those comrades could live on to kill Americans.
Apparently, you find that heroic.

#207 | POSTED BY HANS

I find the act to be heroic because it is. That they were fighting for an evil cause is beside the point.

#215 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:39 PM | Reply

"Reading comprehension is fundamental. I didn't call Confederates heroic. I called acts of heroism on the battlefield heroic, because they are."

You called heroism on the battlefield in service of bigotry heroic. That makes you a bigot, a supporter of bigots.

"Self-retorting retort."

For calling you what you are? Hardly.

"Also, the only thing that is disgusting is your gross misrepresentation of my beliefs."

I am not misrepresenting your beliefs, idiot. I am pointing to your bigoted actions. Who cares what you THINK you are doing?

#216 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:41 PM | Reply

I find the act to be heroic because it is. That they were fighting for an evil cause is beside the point.

#215 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:39 PM | FLAG:

You are right because you say so? Pathetic. At least try to make an argument.

#217 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:42 PM | Reply

>>What does honoring awful people have to do with either of those things?

Thomas Jefferson.

Slave owner.

Awful person? Why does he have a memorial?

#218 | Posted by schifferbrains at 2017-08-14 02:42 PM | Reply

"I find the act to be heroic because it is. That they were fighting for an evil cause is beside the point." - #215 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 02:39 PM

Situational ethics.

#219 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 02:42 PM | Reply

It is the same. I don't support authoritarianism, so if a neighboring town wants to put a statue of Gen. Lee in their park, so be it. If they do so I will then make the choice not to visit their town and patronize their businesses.

#213 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 02:38 PM | FLAG:

That worked SO well in the civil rights era... you are an object lesson in the social cowardice of libertarians

#220 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#212 It isn't ethical to ascribe motivations to people that they didn't have and then to condemn them for those motivations. Likewise, it isn't ethical to ascribe motivations to people that they didn't have and then praise them for it. Not every Union soldier was motivated to fight by the desire to end slavery. I assume the opposite is also true: Not every Confederate soldier was motivated to fight by the desire to maintain slavery.

#221 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 02:44 PM | Reply

Awful person? Why does he have a memorial?
#218 | POSTED BY SCHIFFERBRAINS AT 2017-08-14 02:42 PM | FLAG:
He shouldn't.

#222 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:44 PM | Reply

PS Not every Nazi soldier was fighting because they loved Hitler. Some fought because they were drafted and couldn't get out of it.

#223 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 02:45 PM | Reply

"212 It isn't ethical to ascribe motivations to people that they didn't have and then to condemn them for those motivations."

Nor am I doing so. I am saying their motives don't matter. Their actions do. I condemn them for those.

#224 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:45 PM | Reply

"Thomas Jefferson.
Slave owner.
Awful person? Why does he have a memorial?"

Not just Jefferson. I forget how many of our founding fathers owned slaves. Anyone?

#225 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 02:48 PM | Reply

"He shouldn't." - #222 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:44 PM

Sure he should.

His place in American history wasn't because of (or in spite of) slavery.

#226 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 02:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

JeffJ,

While I'm sure that soldiers engage in personal heroics, that's not what Civil War statues -- or statues in general-- are really there to celebrate.

They celebrate the cause.

Hence, a statue of Mohammad Atta in NYC wouldn't really be about heroics, despite the fact that he gave his life for something he believed in, which is easily viewed as heroic.

Statues symbolize a deep and meaningful personal commitment to society and to the ideals society stands for.

It's basically statism. Propaganda. You have no problem identifying what a giant mural of Stalin means; but put it in statue form and you can't see it for what it is. Open your eyes man!

#227 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 02:50 PM | Reply

His place in American history wasn't because of (or in spite of) slavery.

#226 | POSTED BY HANS AT 2017-08-14 02:49 PM | FLAG:

Are you kidding? This is Jeff's bizarre ethics all over again.

#228 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:50 PM | Reply

"Nor am I doing so. I am saying their motives don't matter. Their actions do. I condemn them for those."

Both sides in the Civil War were killing each other. Don't the reason one side was fighting make them worthy in your eyes and the reason the other side was fighting make you condemn them? And don't the reason(s) they were fighting equal motivation?

#229 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 02:51 PM | Reply

"Hence, a statue of Mohammad Atta in NYC wouldn't really be about heroics, despite the fact that he gave his life for something he believed in, which is easily viewed as heroic." - #227 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 02:50 PM

IIRC, that's pretty much the reason why Bill Maher was fired from "Politically Incorrect."

#230 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 02:53 PM | Reply

"Both sides in the Civil War were killing each other."

One side was doing it in a way that supported an immoral slave state.

#231 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

JeffJ your appeal to heroism is a whitewash too.

Focusing on individual acts of heroic Nazis serves no other purpose than to say the Nazis weren't all bad.

I don't understand why you can't acknowledge such a simple thing.

#232 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 02:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Awful person? Why does he have a memorial?
#218 | POSTED BY SCHIFFERBRAINS AT 2017-08-14 02:42 PM | FLAG:
He shouldn't.

Well, then you are going to be left with just religious statues because there aren't that many perfect people in the world.

#233 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 02:55 PM | Reply

I disagree. A heroic act on the battlefield is a heroic act, even for those fighting on the wrong side.

#175 | Posted by JeffJ

Dude you're playing semantics games to defend your defense of NAZIs. Did you ever think it would come to this?

Just kick the racist party to the curb, join the good side and you wont have to do these verbal and ethical gymnastics.

#234 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 02:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Well, then you are going to be left with just religious statues because there aren't that many perfect people in the world.

#233 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY AT 2017-08-14 02:55 PM | FLAG:

Oh, I'm sorry: is wanting to memorialize people who weren't slave owners and rapists too much to ask?

#235 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:57 PM | Reply

I don't understand why you can't acknowledge such a simple thing.

#232 | Posted by snoofy

It took the Trump Jr emails for jeffj to admit there was anything suspicious between trump and putin.

His intelligence seems to go on long vacations when convenient.

#236 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 02:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Are you kidding?" - #228 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 02:50 PM

Good, bad or indifferent, there is only one principle author of the Declaration of Independence who was also the 3rd President of the USA.

#237 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 02:58 PM | Reply

Good, bad or indifferent, there is only one principle author of the Declaration of Independence who was also the 3rd President of the USA.

#237 | POSTED BY HANS AT 2017-08-14 02:58 PM | FLAG:

Good, bad, or indifferent, there was only one Waffen SS guy who saved his platoon by jumping on a grenade.... I expect you'll chip in for that statue as well?

Honestly, people: we care about these things or we don't.

#238 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:01 PM | Reply

It took the Trump Jr emails for jeffj to admit there was anything suspicious between trump and putin.
His intelligence seems to go on long vacations when convenient.

#236 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

That's because, until that point, no evidence of any collusion existed. On that issue, I go where the evidence and facts lead.

#239 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:03 PM | Reply

Dude you're playing semantics games to defend your defense of NAZIs.

I'm not defending Nazis. That is a straw man.

#240 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:05 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Both sides in the Civil War were killing each other."
One side was doing it in a way that supported an immoral slave state.

Lincoln's first aim was to save the Union. Ending slavery wasn't his initial goal. His views about slavery evolved. Lincoln said if he could have saved the Union without freeing the slaves or by only freeing some of them, he would have. Over time, however, he came to the conclusion that the only way he could save the Union was to free the slaves, and so he wrote the Emancipation Proclamation. It was then that the war became a battle to set other people (slaves) free, at least from the POV of some of those fighting.

#241 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 03:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I'm not defending Nazis. That is a straw man.

#240 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:05 PM | FLAG:

Keep lying. We will all just scroll up.

#242 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:06 PM | Reply

>>there was only one Waffen SS guy

What about just average-Fritz in the Wehrmacht? Is it even possible that every soldier wasn't evil incarnate, that many were regular people caught up in the time in which they lived?
And if you agree to that, couldn't the same apply to soldiers in the Confederate Army?

For the record, I don't agree with statues in public places honoring Confederate Generals.
But there been some odd 'back-and-white' moralizing in the thread...

#243 | Posted by schifferbrains at 2017-08-14 03:06 PM | Reply

Good, bad, or indifferent, there was only one Waffen SS guy who saved his platoon by jumping on a grenade.... I expect you'll chip in for that statue as well?

It takes quite a leap to equate the SS with Thomas Jefferson.

George Washington was a slave owner too.

#244 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:07 PM | Reply

That's because, until that point, no evidence of any collusion existed. On that issue, I go where the evidence and facts lead.

#239 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:03 PM | FLAG:

And here I thought you just temporarily ran out of Obama deflections....

#245 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:07 PM | Reply

"...especially if neither of them KNOW they're cause is morally repugnant." - #200 | Posted by RevDarko at 2017-08-14 02:31 PM

Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid, daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes, Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht, unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will, jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen.
Oath taken by every German soldier, from 1934-1945.

#246 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 03:07 PM | Reply

Keep lying. We will all just scroll up.

#242 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

You can scroll all of the way to the top and you won't find a single instance of me being a Nazi apologist.

#247 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:08 PM | Reply

"It takes quite a leap to equate the SS with Thomas Jefferson."

Why? Be specific.

"George Washington was a slave owner too."

Very true. Want to ask what I think of him having a monument?

#248 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:09 PM | Reply

That's because, until that point, no evidence of any collusion existed. On that issue, I go where the evidence and facts lead.
#239 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:03 PM | FLAG:
And here I thought you just temporarily ran out of Obama deflections....

#245 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

First off, it's Trump who's being accused of colluding with Putin, not Obama. Secondly, I didn't bring the Trump collusion thing up, Speaks did.

A little while ago I mentioned to you that reading comprehension is fundamental. #245 proves it.

#249 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:10 PM | Reply

You can scroll all of the way to the top and you won't find a single instance of me being a Nazi apologist.

#247 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:08 PM | FLAG:

Confederate apologist then. These days, a distinction without a difference.

#250 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:10 PM | Reply

You can scroll all of the way to the top and you won't find a single instance of me being a Nazi apologist.

#247 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Apologist? Debatable.
Equivocator? Absolutely.
Deflector? Absolutely.

#251 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-08-14 03:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

A little while ago I mentioned to you that reading comprehension is fundamental. #245 proves it.

#249 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:10 PM | FLAG:

It does! You obviously didn't comprehend my post at all! How sad.

#252 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:11 PM | Reply

"Honestly, people: we care about these things or we don't." - #238 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:01 PM

con·text - the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
pro·por·tion·al·i·ty - the quality of corresponding in size or amount to something else.

#253 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 03:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Confederate apologist then. These days, a distinction without a difference.

#250 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Nope. You will not find a single post of mine on this thread where I'm an apologist for the confederacy.

#251 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT

Douchebag? Abolutely.

#254 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:14 PM | Reply

"You can scroll all of the way to the top and you won't find a single instance of me being a Nazi apologist."

When I read the thread, I learned that you are fundamentally be okay with people two towns over erecting a Hitler statue.

#255 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 03:15 PM | Reply

Lincoln's first aim was to save the Union. Ending slavery wasn't his initial goal. His views about slavery evolved. Lincoln said if he could have saved the Union without freeing the slaves or by only freeing some of them, he would have. Over time, however, he came to the conclusion that the only way he could save the Union was to free the slaves, and so he wrote the Emancipation Proclamation. It was then that the war became a battle to set other people (slaves) free, at least from the POV of some of those fighting.

#241 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY AT 2017-08-14 03:06 PM | FLAG: | NEWSWORTHY 1

....and? This doesn't change my point even a little.

#256 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:15 PM | Reply

This deserves a reprint and earns a NW:

"Honestly, people: we care about these things or we don't." - #238 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:01 PM

con·text - the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
pro·por·tion·al·i·ty - the quality of corresponding in size or amount to something else.
#253 | POSTED BY HANS AT 2017-08-14 03:12 PM

#257 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:16 PM | Reply

"Nope. You will not find a single post of mine on this thread where I'm an apologist for the confederacy."

Stop lying. Confederate heroism? That was your line. Let the locals decide about honoring racists (like the Confederates wanted the states to decide about slavery)? You again.

#258 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:17 PM | Reply

When I read the thread, I learned that you are fundamentally be okay with people two towns over erecting a Hitler statue.

#255 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2017-08-14 03:15 PM

I think it would be wholly inappropriate for them to do so but I support their right to be able to do it. It's that pesky 1st Amendment.

#259 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:18 PM | Reply

From Wikipedia (I know)

How many US presidents owned slaves?

In total, twelve presidents owned slaves at some point in their lives, eight of whom owned slaves while serving as president. George Washington was the first president to own slaves, including while he was president.

en.wikipedia.org

#260 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 03:18 PM | Reply

#257

Is there an argument in their somewhere? Tell me, what context justifies honoring a rapist and slave owner? I am curious to see how your perverse ethics handle that one.

#261 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:19 PM | Reply

Confederate heroism? That was your line.

No, it isn't. That's you falsely characterizing what I said (that's becoming a common theme).


Let the locals decide about honoring racists (like the Confederates wanted the states to decide about slavery)? You again.

1st Amendment.

#262 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:20 PM | Reply

I think it would be wholly inappropriate for them to do so but I support their right to be able to do it. It's that pesky 1st Amendment.

#259 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:18 PM | FLAG:

Because you can't see how that would victimize the locals. Of course. What are your thoughts on cross burnings, Cletus?

#263 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:20 PM | Reply

Gotta love the Stalin apologist trashing Thomas Jefferson.

#264 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-08-14 03:22 PM | Reply

"No, it isn't. That's you falsely characterizing what I said (that's becoming a common theme)."

Uh huh. Again, scrolling up reveals your lies.

"1st Amendment"

Amazing how much that matters to you when someone tries to call out a racist. I wonder why that is...

#265 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:22 PM | Reply

#257
Is there an argument in their somewhere? Tell me, what context justifies honoring a rapist and slave owner? I am curious to see how your perverse ethics handle that one.

#261 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Were it not for the actions taken by the founders this country wouldn't exist. George Washington is arguably the greatest president this country has ever had. I'm pretty OK with a monument for him. Ditto Jefferson. Lincoln too.

#266 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:22 PM | Reply

Gotta love the Stalin apologist trashing Thomas Jefferson.

#264 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2017-08-14 03:22 PM | FLAG:

Gotta love Nulli showing up right on cue to defend slavery and rape. Here's your daily reminder: you are a terrible human being.

#267 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:23 PM | Reply

"1st Amendment"
Amazing how much that matters to you when someone tries to call out a racist. I wonder why that is...

#265 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I fully support your 1st Amendment right to falsely brand me as a racist. I also support my 1st Amendment right to call out how emotionally shallow you are.

#268 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:24 PM | Reply

Were it not for the actions taken by the founders this country wouldn't exist. George Washington is arguably the greatest president this country has ever had. I'm pretty OK with a monument for him. Ditto Jefferson. Lincoln too.

#266 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:22 PM | FLAG:

So you are okay with honoring rapists and slave owners. Got it.

You need to get your ethics examined...

#269 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:25 PM | Reply

I fully support your 1st Amendment right to falsely brand me as a racist.

#268 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:24 PM | FLAG:

You literally just said you were fine with statues honoring racists... guess what that makes you, smart guy?

#270 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:26 PM | Reply

Okay. This has gotten ridiculous

It took this idiot 2 days to condemn racists.

Now he's talking about pardoning Joe Arpaio, a man convicted of crimes due to racist policies.

He's not giving cover to racists...

He's giving racist big, sloppy kisses.

#271 | Posted by RevDarko at 2017-08-14 03:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I think it would be wholly inappropriate for them to do so but I support their right to be able to do it. It's that pesky 1st Amendment."

Okay but this leaves us wondering why you condemn some messages, like BLM, but when it comes to KKK you skip the message and instead champion their right to speak.

#272 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 03:28 PM | Reply

Conservatives built that.

#273 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:28 PM | Reply

Were it not for the actions taken by the founders this country wouldn't exist. George Washington is arguably the greatest president this country has ever had. I'm pretty OK with a monument for him. Ditto Jefferson. Lincoln too.
#266 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:22 PM | FLAG:
So you are okay with honoring rapists and slave owners. Got it.
- Dirkstruan

Me and about 99.9% of the rest of the country who aren't emotionally-stunted SJW's.

#274 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:28 PM | Reply

Due to HIS racist policies.

#275 | Posted by RevDarko at 2017-08-14 03:29 PM | Reply

You literally just said you were fine with statues honoring racists... guess what that makes you, smart guy?

#270 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I'm fine with statues honoring some of the key founding fathers of this nation as is 99.9% of the people in this country.

#276 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:31 PM | Reply

Me and about 99.9% of the rest of the country who aren't emotionally-stunted SJW's.

#274 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:28 PM | FLAG:

Argumentum ad populum.

And, just out of curiosity, what is emotionally mature about honoring rapists and slave owners?

#277 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:31 PM | Reply

Okay but this leaves us wondering why you condemn some messages, like BLM, but when it comes to KKK you skip the message and instead champion their right to speak.

#272 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

The KKK is much, much worse than BLM.

#278 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:32 PM | Reply

I'm fine with statues honoring some of the key founding fathers of this nation
#276 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:31 PM | FLAG:

Even if said people are horrifying racists. So guess what that makes you, slick?

#279 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:33 PM | Reply

And, just out of curiosity, what is emotionally mature about honoring rapists and slave owners?

#277 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

If you can't comprehend why Jefferson and Washington are honored, then I don't know what to tell you. If you feel that strongly about it I suggest you mine Mt. Rushmore with TNT.

#280 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:33 PM | Reply

So guess what that makes you, slick?

#279 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Someone morally superior to you.

#281 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:34 PM | Reply

The KKK is much, much worse than BLM.

#278 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:32 PM | FLAG:

And yet you come rushing to their defense at every opportunity... I wonder why that is.... it is almost like it says something about your deeply held beliefs... something you are afraid to admit to directly...

#282 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:34 PM | Reply

Someone morally superior to you.

#281 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:34 PM | FLAG:

So, not only do you support slave owners and rapists, you find doing so to be a morally superior position.

#283 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:35 PM | Reply

I haven't defended Neo-Nazis or white supremacists on this thread or elsewhere.

That's just your bigotry on display.

#284 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:35 PM | Reply

-- Here's your daily reminder: you are a terrible human being.

Perhaps, but at least I'm not a totalitarian communist, comrade.

#285 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-08-14 03:36 PM | Reply

So, not only do you support slave owners and rapists, you find doing so to be a morally superior position.

#283 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I support this country's founders, warts and all. And yes, I am morally superior to you.

#286 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:36 PM | Reply

If you can't comprehend why Jefferson and Washington are honored, then I don't know what to tell you.

#280 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:33 PM | FLAG:

I comprehend it just fine: Racism, sexism, an indifference to human suffering, a willful blindness to the qualities of the nation's founders that are embarrassing today, uncritical hero worship... I could go on.

#287 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:38 PM | Reply

Perhaps, but at least I'm not a totalitarian communist, comrade.

#285 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2017-08-14 03:36 PM | FLAG:

A totalitarian fascist, then?

#288 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:39 PM | Reply

"I haven't defended Neo-Nazis or white supremacists on this thread or elsewhere."

Yeah, you are lying again.

#289 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:39 PM | Reply

I'm not defending Nazis. That is a straw man.

#240 | Posted by JeffJ

Oh excuse me. YOu're just playing devil's advocate and "both sides to blame" in defense of nazis.

Big difference.

#290 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 03:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I support this country's founders, warts and all.

#286 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:36 PM | FLAG:

So I've noticed. So, how is giving people a pass on slavery and rape a morally superior position again? Just curious.

#291 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:41 PM | Reply

"I haven't defended Neo-Nazis or white supremacists on this thread or elsewhere."

You've defended their right to protest. That is a way of defending them.

Also, it's okay to defend that, so you don't have to pretend you're not doing it.

#292 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 03:41 PM | Reply

I support this country's founders, warts and all. And yes, I am morally superior to you.

#286 | Posted by JeffJ

You've spent hour defending both trump/putin and now trump/nazis.

You're barely morally superior to a pedophile.

#293 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 03:41 PM | Reply

Oh excuse me. YOu're just playing devil's advocate and "both sides to blame" in defense of nazis.
Big difference.

#290 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2017-08-14 03:40 PM | FLAG:
Just wait for the semantic argument that running interference for Nazis is not "supporting" them...

#294 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 03:43 PM | Reply

"I support this country's founders, warts and all."

What does that even mean, that you support some dead political figures from the past?

I'm guessing it doesn't mean you support slavery, but you can see how someone might think it does, particularly when you offer up unequivical support for the actual men, not their ideals, like you just did.

#295 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 03:44 PM | Reply

"You're barely morally superior to a pedophile."

I'm pretty sure the Founders did things we would call pedophilia today.

Seeing as he looks up to them, that necessarily means he is looking up to the pedophiles.

I'm just saying! :)

********

The (very generous) arc of this thread is JeffJ chummed the waters with Nazi blood and is now sadly confused about how he's attracted so many Nazi hating sharks.

#296 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 03:49 PM | Reply

Oh excuse me. YOu're just playing devil's advocate and "both sides to blame" in defense of nazis.
Big difference.

#290 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

I have done no such thing. If it weren't for straw you wouldn't be a man at all.

#297 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:56 PM | Reply

The (very generous) arc of this thread is JeffJ chummed the waters with Nazi blood and is now sadly confused about how he's attracted so many Nazi hating sharks.

#296 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I've done no such thing.

I've had positions falsely assigned to me by people who don't know how to carry an honest conversation.

#298 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:57 PM | Reply

Just wait for the semantic argument that running interference for Nazis is not "supporting" them...

#294 | POSTED BY: EMOTIONALLY SHALLOW

I am not running interference for anyone. I haven't even engaged in pass interference.

#299 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 03:59 PM | Reply

I have done no such thing. If it weren't for straw you wouldn't be a man at all.

#297 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:56 PM | FLAG:

That joke makes no sense, buffoon. A strawman is something you set up to knock down. That is the image.

#300 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:00 PM | Reply

"I haven't defended Neo-Nazis or white supremacists on this thread or elsewhere."
Yeah, you are lying again.

#289 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Nope. That would be you. But, bigotry is part and parcel with intellectual dishonesty.

#301 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:00 PM | Reply

I am not running interference for anyone. I haven't even engaged in pass interference.

#299 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:59 PM | FLAG:

Right on cue, you lying coward.

#302 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:01 PM | Reply

I've done no such thing.

I've had positions falsely assigned to me by people who don't know how to carry an honest conversation.

#298 | Posted by JeffJ

You may have lost the ability to read your own posts, but the rest of us haven't.

You entered this thread whining about BLM and the antifa. Blaming the anti-nazis instead of the nazis.

#303 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 04:01 PM | Reply

That joke makes no sense, buffoon. A strawman is something you set up to knock down. That is the image.

#300 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

It wasn't intended to "make sense".

#304 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:01 PM | Reply

Nope. That would be you. But, bigotry is part and parcel with intellectual dishonesty.

#301 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 04:00 PM | FLAG:

Really? I've run interference for Nazis? Examples, please.

#305 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:02 PM | Reply

It wasn't intended to "make sense".

#304 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 04:01 PM | FLAG:

You should get that on a t-shirt.

#306 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:03 PM | Reply

You entered this thread whining about BLM and the antifa. Blaming the anti-nazis instead of the nazis.

#303 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

My BLM comment was in response to your post regarding...BLM.

I actually entered this thread with an Obama deflection which I immediately followed with an apology for offering a deflection.

#307 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:05 PM | Reply

Really? I've run interference for Nazis? Examples, please.

#305 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I didn't accuse you of running interference for Nazis.

#308 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:06 PM | Reply

I am not running interference for anyone. I haven't even engaged in pass interference.
#299 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 03:59 PM | FLAG:
Right on cue, you lying coward.

#302 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

My statement was 100% truthful.

#309 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:06 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Funny flag: you are a full on self parody, Jeff.

#310 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:08 PM | Reply

Funny flag: you are a full on self parody, Jeff.

#310 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Dude, you are the biggest joke on this site. You have no idea how ridiculous you look calling me, or anyone for that matter, self parody.

#311 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Antifa is a toxic group."

That's your first comment here JeffJ.

Not only is it off topic, it's a far cry from "Antifa is a toxic group, but I wholeheartedly support their right to protest."

Care to explain what the purpose of that comment was?

If it wasn't to equate antifa with KKK, then... what was it?

#312 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 04:11 PM | Reply

The comment you are referring to got posted on the wrong thread.

This is where I thought I was posting it:

Car Plows Into Protesters in Charlottesville

#313 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:13 PM | Reply

The comment you are referring to got posted on the wrong thread.
This is where I thought I was posting it:
Car Plows Into Protesters in Charlottesville

#313 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 04:13 PM | FLAG:

Hardly a defense. It shows your approach to these topics quite well: deflection, false equivalence.

#314 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:16 PM | Reply

Clarification:

That comment was in conjunction with a couple of other comments where Antifa had come up.

#315 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:17 PM | Reply

Hardly a defense. It shows your approach to these topics quite well: deflection, false equivalence.

#314 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Show of hands - How many Drudgies have accidentially posted a comment on a different thread then where it was intended?

*95% of Retorters raise their hands*

#316 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:18 PM | Reply

Hardly a defense...

#314 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Sure it is. That comment wasn't intended for this thread. I posted it here by mistake. We all make mistakes from time to time.

#317 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:19 PM | Reply

Show of hands - How many Drudgies have accidentially posted a comment on a different thread then where it was intended?
*95% of Retorters raise their hands*

#316 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 04:18 PM | FLAG:

The point, you simple creature, is that it would have been an example of that conduct in EITHER OF THOSE THREADS.

#318 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:22 PM | Reply

The point, you simple creature, is that it would have been an example of that conduct in EITHER OF THOSE THREADS.

#318 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN A

Nope.

See: context

#319 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:23 PM | Reply

Nope.
See: context

#319 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 04:23 PM | FLAG:

Yup. Context was: thread about alt-right, you deflect to some leftists group. QED, idiot.

#320 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:25 PM | Reply

And then you lie about what you said even though we can all read your posts... classic Jeff.

#321 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:27 PM | Reply

No response to #295, I see.

#322 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:29 PM | Reply

On that thread at the time I made that post neo-nazis and Antifa were being discussed.

You sound like Speaks bemoaning my commenting on BLM in response to his comment regarding BLM.

#323 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:37 PM | Reply

"I support this country's founders, warts and all."
What does that even mean, that you support some dead political figures from the past?
I'm guessing it doesn't mean you support slavery, but you can see how someone might think it does, particularly when you offer up unequivical support for the actual men, not their ideals, like you just did.

#295 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I support the actual men because were it not for them and their actions, their ideals would never have come to fruition.

I staunchly oppose slavery.

#324 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:38 PM | Reply

And then you lie about what you said even though we can all read your posts... classic Jeff.

#321 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

The only one lying is you.

#325 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:39 PM | Reply

We are being told our history is no longer of value.
Our right to assemble is conditional to what the government sanctions.

How do you figure?

#327 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:41 PM | Reply

I support the actual men because were it not for them and their actions, their ideals would never have come to fruition.
I staunchly oppose slavery.

#324 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 04:38 PM | FLAG:

So much cognitive dissonance. How can you say you oppose slavery when you support men who owned slaves and worse?

#328 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:49 PM | Reply

"On that thread at the time I made that post neo-nazis and Antifa were being discussed."

Save your excuses. A deflection is a deflection.

#329 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:50 PM | Reply

#326 | POSTED BY PROLIX247:

We are being told our history is no longer of value.
-It isn't of value, you lost the war.

Freedom of speech is no longer a right.
Yes it is.

We are being told that national identity is racists and America must bow down to immigrants.
-It is. Racism was central to the confederacy's national identity. Not sure about your confederate America, but in the United States we bow to no one.

There is no longer an American. We are all mearly immigrants boiling in the same pot.
American is supposed to be a melting pot of immigrants.

Sad day in America...
It is a sad day in America when racists walk the streets without fear of condemnation.

#330 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-08-14 04:50 PM | Reply

Because the thread just wouldn't be complete without Trollix teetering at the edge of incoherence....

#331 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:51 PM | Reply

"On that thread at the time I made that post neo-nazis and Antifa were being discussed."
Save your excuses. A deflection is a deflection.

#329 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

A deflection is the original post. Anything that follows is simply a response.

I support the actual men because were it not for them and their actions, their ideals would never have come to fruition.
I staunchly oppose slavery.
#324 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 04:38 PM | FLAG:
So much cognitive dissonance. How can you say you oppose slavery when you support men who owned slaves and worse?

#328 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Because, were it not for those men and the actions they took, this country wouldn't exist as it does today.

#332 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:53 PM | Reply

You sound like Speaks bemoaning my commenting on BLM in response to his comment regarding BLM.

#323 | Posted by JeffJ

I responded to another racist comparing the KKK to BLM. You chose to take the racist side.

#333 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 04:56 PM | Reply

Jeff, Boyduhhstruan is just crying out for attention, ignore him.

#334 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-08-14 04:56 PM | Reply

"A deflection is the original post. Anything that follows is simply a response."

"Teacher! Little Johnny started it!" Grow up, you buffoon.

"Because, were it not for those men and the actions they took, this country wouldn't exist as it does today."

Which excuses slavery and rape? That is really your ethical position?

#335 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:57 PM | Reply

In the end I think it is safe to say we saw an erosion of our rights this weekend.

We are being told our history is no longer of value.

Our right to assemble is conditional to what the government sanctions.

Freedom of speech is no longer a right.

We are being told that national identity is racists and America must bow down to immigrants.

There is no longer an American. We are all mearly immigrants boiling in the same pot.

Sad day in America...

#326 | Posted by Prolix247

Go cry about it at the next klan meeting.

The confederacy has as much value as the nazi party - purely historical. It belongs in museums, not the town square.

You're a racist who thinks america should be white. Just say it. YOu'll feel better.

#336 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 04:58 PM | Reply

I responded to another racist comparing the KKK to BLM. You chose to take the racist side.

#333 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2017-08-14 04:56 PM | FLAG:

Like he always does...

#337 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 04:58 PM | Reply

Jeff, Boyduhhstruan is just crying out for attention, ignore him.

#334 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER

I'm having fun. I already made him cry once.

#338 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 04:59 PM | Reply

I'm having fun. I already made him cry once.

#338 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 04:59 PM | FLAG:

Was this before or after you excused slavery and rape?

#339 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:01 PM | Reply

"A deflection is the original post. Anything that follows is simply a response."
"Teacher! Little Johnny started it!" Grow up, you buffoon.

What I stated was true - responding to someone's comment is not a deflection.

You sound like Speaks bemoaning my commenting on BLM in response to his comment regarding BLM.
#323 | Posted by JeffJ
I responded to another racist comparing the KKK to BLM. You chose to take the racist side.

#333 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Actually, I said that both groups contain toxic elements but that the KKK (and its ilk) is worse. I said it more than once.

I'll chalk you up as a race-baiter, just like Dirk is.

#340 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:02 PM | Reply

Was this before or after you excused slavery and rape?

#339 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I have done no such thing.

When can laud the founders AND oppose slavery. All at the same time. It's called nuance. Someday, if you ever grow up, you'll understand how that works.

#341 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:03 PM | Reply

"What I stated was true - responding to someone's comment is not a deflection."

It absolutely is. Grow up. Take some responsibility.

"Actually, I said that both groups contain toxic elements but that the KKK (and its ilk) is worse. I said it more than once."

You always attack one group and defend the other. Why is that?

"I'll chalk you up as a race-baiter, just like Dirk is."

Says the defender of slave owners and perpetrator of the myth of confederate military heroism. The racial problems in society are real and they are because of people like you.

#342 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:06 PM | Reply

I have done no such thing.
When can laud the founders AND oppose slavery. All at the same time. It's called nuance. Someday, if you ever grow up, you'll understand how that works.

#341 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 05:03 PM | FLAG:

Nuance? Try cognitive dissonance. You either support honoring slave owners and rapists or you oppose it. You have come down on the former side and that makes you a morally repugnant bigot. You can't weasel out of this, no matter how much you try.

#343 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:08 PM | Reply

I have done no such thing.
When can laud the founders AND oppose slavery. All at the same time. It's called nuance. Someday, if you ever grow up, you'll understand how that works.
#341 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Nuance: You laud the founders for birthing this nation.

Stupidity: You laud the Confederates for fighting a war to preserve slavery.

Someday, if you ever grow up, you'll understand how stupid you sound.

#344 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-08-14 05:12 PM | Reply

"What I stated was true - responding to someone's comment is not a deflection."
It absolutely is.

No, it isn't.

You always attack one group and defend the other. Why is that?

Saying the KKK is worse than BLM is defending whom, precisely? [...]

#345 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:12 PM | Reply

Stupidity: You laud the Confederates for fighting a war to preserve slavery.

Except I haven't done that. Not even once. What is it with all of your losers and your stupid straw man arguments? Is intellectual dishonesty fun, or something?

#346 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:14 PM | Reply

Nuance? Try cognitive dissonance. You either support honoring slave owners and rapists or you oppose it. You have come down on the former side and that makes you a morally repugnant bigot. You can't weasel out of this, no matter how much you try.

#343 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I, along with 99.9% of the rest of this country support honoring the founders.

Here's a suggestion: Wander around DC carrying a sign that says: "George Washington was a piece of human garbage" and see what kind of reaction you get.

#347 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:16 PM | Reply

"No, it isn't."

It definitely is. Your whimpering about someone else starting me it doesn't change that. Sorry.

"Saying the KKK is worse than BLM is defending whom, precisely?"

You appear on any thread about right wing violence, and you deflect and deflect, and crow about your reading of the first amendment. But a thread about leftists? Crickets from you, or worse.

"I'm going to give you a piece of advice:
Don't go into a bar and call people racists in the casual manner in which you do it on this site unless you don't value your teeth. It takes a special kind of ------- to do what you are doing."

And here is the inevitable rightist revenge fantasy. Just what I'd expect from you. And for the record, there is nothing casual or baseless about my calling you a racist. You are one. You have shown it with your conduct. You don't get to whine or deny it or cry about how I am questioning your motives. All we have to do is read your posts, about the founders for instance, and bam! Proof positive.

#348 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:19 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I, along with 99.9% of the rest of this country support honoring the founders."

Argumentum ad populum. Again. Do you have an actual argument?

#349 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:20 PM | Reply

Except I haven't done that. Not even once.

#346 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 05:14 PM | FLAG:

Stop lying. You lauded their heroism in battle. You are fine with statues honoring them and their cause.

#350 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:22 PM | Reply

You lauded their heroism in battle.

I recognized heroic acts for what they are.

You are fine with statues honoring them and their cause.

#350 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

As a 1st Amendment principle.

Jeez, no wonder you despise the founders.

#351 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:23 PM | Reply

It definitely is. Your whimpering about someone else starting me it doesn't change that.

Um, no. I've explained why it isn't a deflection. You've countered with, "Nuh uh".

You appear on any thread about right wing violence, and you deflect and deflect, and crow about your reading of the first amendment. But a thread about leftists? Crickets from you, or worse.

That is completely nonsensical.

there is nothing casual or baseless about my calling you a racist. You are one. You have shown it with your conduct. You don't get to whine or deny it or cry about how I am questioning your motives. All we have to do is read your posts, about the founders for instance, and bam! Proof positive.

#348 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Seriously dude, I highly suggest you limit yourself to making those kinds of accusations on anonymous message boards. You pull that garbage in person and you are probably going to get your ass kicked.

Fortunately, I don't care what some effete, SJW piece of human garbage calls me. I consider the source.

#352 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I recognized heroic acts for what they are."

Not a denial, I see. I have already pointed out how perverse this ethical position is. No response from you, of course.

"As a 1st Amendment principle."

Again, no denial I see. Social cowardice at its finest.

"Jeez, no wonder you despise the founders."

I do tend to oppose rapists and slave owners. The real question is why don't you?

#353 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#348 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Do you think there should be statues to General U.S. Grant?

#354 | Posted by tontonmacoute at 2017-08-14 05:32 PM | Reply

Jumping on a grenade is a heroic act regardless of who does it.

"As a 1st Amendment principle."
Again, no denial I see. Social cowardice at its finest.

Denial of what? Do you understand how the 1st Amendment works? It's there to protect speech that "offends". Try and wrap your little authoritarian head around that.

I do tend to oppose rapists and slave owners. The real question is why don't you?

#353 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I support the founders because they created the greatest country this world has ever seen.

#355 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:32 PM | Reply

A summary update for anyone trying to keep up with this thread;

"I can't be a racist because George Washington had slaves and nazis are heroes if they committed a single courageous act regardless if it was in the name of racism and anti-Semitism." -- JeffJ.

#356 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-08-14 05:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#348 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN
Do you think there should be statues to General U.S. Grant?

#354 | POSTED BY TONTONMACOUTE

You're wasting your time. That douche uses the Constitution as toilet paper.

#357 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:34 PM | Reply

"Um, no. I've explained why it isn't a deflection. You've countered with, "Nuh uh"."

Nope. You are the one who responded with "he satarted it." That is not a response, it is a childish excuse. Because that is all you have. To make it even more clear: to prattle on about leftist violence on a thread about rightist violence is a deflection by definition.

"That is completely nonsensical."

It is an exact description of your conduct.

"Seriously dude, I highly suggest you limit yourself to making those kinds of accusations on anonymous message boards. You pull that garbage in person and you are probably going to get your ass kicked."

More violence fantasies. Shows what sort of person you really are.

And again: you don't get to whine: I am not saying or doing anything unfair. I am pointing out the reality that you are a racist. If it Upsets you, stop being one.

#358 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:35 PM | Reply

"I support the founders because they created the greatest country this world has ever seen."

Without those rapists and slave owners this country wouldn't exist and whatever advances we have fought for and cobbled together as a nation wouldn't exist either. Nobody is celebrating the fact that some of they were rapist and slave owners. Some of us are celebrating the good things they did accomplish, however.

#359 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 05:36 PM | Reply

"I can't be a racist because George Washington had slaves and nazis are heroes if they committed a single courageous act regardless if it was in the name of racism and anti-Semitism." -- JeffJ.

I'll sum up Dirk's/Indiana's/Speaks' posts:

"I am emotionally stunted d-bag and am incapable of intellectual honesty, therefore I am going to make a bunch of straw man arguments so I can then use said arguments to brand people as racists, because being a race-baiter is how I get off." - Dirk/Jones/Speak

#360 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:36 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Jumping on a grenade is a heroic act regardless of who does it."

Refuted upthread.

"Denial of what? Do you understand how the 1st Amendment works? It's there to protect speech that "offends". Try and wrap your little authoritarian head around that."

Ergo you are fine with memorials to awful people. Got it.

"I support the founders because they created the greatest country this world has ever seen."

Greatest country? Add uncritical nationalism to your long list of flaws. And even if it were true, does that justify rape? Does it justify ownership of human beings?

#362 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Without those rapists and slave owners this country wouldn't exist and whatever advances we have fought for and cobbled together as a nation wouldn't exist either. Nobody is celebrating the fact that some of they were rapist and slave owners. Some of us are celebrating the good things they did accomplish, however.

#359 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

That kind of talk will get you labeled as a racist by some on this site.

Nope. You are the one who responded with "he satarted it." That is not a response, it is a childish excuse. Because that is all you have. To make it even more clear: to prattle on about leftist violence on a thread about rightist violence is a deflection by definition.

I was participating in the discussion, which at the time was revolving around Trump condemning hate from all sides.

More violence fantasies. Shows what sort of person you really are.

I wasn't fantasizing about anything. I was giving you advice as you seem to live in a cocoon. Baselessly calling one a racist to their face creates the possibility of your ass getting kicked. I was encouraging you to limit that kind of garbage to anonymous message boards to decrease the likelihood of someone beating you up.

And again: you don't get to whine: I am not saying or doing anything unfair. I am pointing out the reality that you are a racist. If it Upsets you, stop being one.

#358 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

If you "pointed that out" to anyone who actually knows me they'd laugh in your face and would probably call you an -------.

#363 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:42 PM | Reply

"Without those rapists and slave owners this country wouldn't exist and whatever advances we have fought for and cobbled together as a nation wouldn't exist either."

1) You have no way of knowing that.

2) is it an excuse?

"Nobody is celebrating the fact that some of they were rapist and slave owners. Some of us are celebrating the good things they did accomplish, however."

If you celebrate the person, you take them "worts and all", as Jeff says. So, are you okay with celebrating the awful stuff they did?

#364 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:42 PM | Reply

--I'll chalk you up as a race-baiter, just like Dirk is.

The race-baitings will continue until morale improves!

#365 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-08-14 05:43 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Gal,

You can take it from here.

I've only plonked one person and that was Snoofy for all of 2 days about 6 months ago.

I am now plonking a second person and it will last for much longer than 2 days.

#366 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 05:45 PM | Reply

I support the founders because they created the greatest country this world has ever seen.

#355 | Posted by JeffJ

And you support trump because....?

#367 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 05:46 PM | Reply

"I was participating in the discussion, which at the time was revolving around Trump condemning hate from all sides."

"Trump started it!" Do you know any other excuses you'd care to try?

"I wasn't fantasizing about anything."

Of course you were. Because you are a bloodthirsty, ethically bankrupt individual. I get it.

"I was giving you advice as you seem to live in a cocoon. Baselessly calling one a racist to their face creates the possibility of your ass getting kicked."

Good thing none of what I said was baseless, huh? Hey, while we are speculating, should I give you advice on the social consequences of your sort of overt racism?

"If you "pointed that out" to anyone who actually knows me they'd laugh in your face and would probably call you an -------."

...until I showed them your posting history, you mean? And then they'd wonder if they ever really knew you so well at all... unless you just surround yourself with fellow racists (possible).

#368 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:47 PM | Reply

This is why Democrats no longer hold the keys to power.

Just because I don't toe the line some here think it's fine to identify me as an enemy.

Just so you wingnuts know, I was born before the civil war on the west coast and I am Latino.

Let that sink in to your corrupted minds a little while you redefine this country.

Based on your comments our founding fathers would be subject to having urine and feces thrown at them while being called racist.

#361 | Posted by Prolix247

Democrats no longer hold the keys to power because republicans are disgusting slugs who figured out how to prevent their opponents from voting, and how to have their votes count for less.

Congrats. Your side is awesome at cheating! And great at taking care of racists and the rich. They suck at everything else.

#369 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 05:49 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I've had the one plonked for well over a year at least, and the other for at least a month or two.

They contribute nothing but straw men and a horrible reading comprehension with the sole purpose of begging for attention and conversation.
Total puds. Sad.

#370 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2017-08-14 05:54 PM | Reply

These statues are not being destroyed. They are being moved to a more appropriate venue. Any arguments that claim we are destroying or denying history are just blather. Just because you have a first amendment right to display a picture of someone pissing on a cross does not mean you are entitled to have it prominently displayed in the public commons. displaying statues of heroes OF AN ENEMY NATION WE DEFEATED in the public commons at taxpayer expense is not protected by the first amendment.

#371 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-08-14 05:55 PM | Reply

prevent their opponents from voting,
#369 | Posted by SpeakSoftly
That is funny right there. Unless you are talking about the dead vote.

#372 | Posted by Federalist at 2017-08-14 05:58 PM | Reply

I've had the one plonked for well over a year at least, and the other for at least a month or two.
They contribute nothing but straw men and a horrible reading comprehension with the sole purpose of begging for attention and conversation.
Total puds. Sad.

#370 | POSTED BY 101CHAIRBORNE AT 2017-08-14 05:54 PM | FLAG:

So glad you two have each other's shoulders to cry on...

#373 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 05:59 PM | Reply

That is funny right there. Unless you are talking about the dead vote.

#372 | POSTED BY FEDERALIST AT 2017-08-14 05:58 PM | FLAG:

Nope, just the poor. I know you get them mixed up...

#375 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 06:00 PM | Reply

The greatest country the world has ever seen, I don't even know what that means. By what parameters?

#377 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 06:01 PM | Reply

#375 | Posted by DirkStruan a
You and Danni should get a room and crosscheck each other.

#378 | Posted by Federalist at 2017-08-14 06:03 PM | Reply

Jeff and Gal,

The difference between celebrating the Framers in spite of their atrocities and not celebrating nazis in spite of their heroic war acts as simple for those of us with moral compasses.

The Framers did not found the nation in support of slavery, despite some having slaves. We do not celebrate their slave-owning. Some nazis committed heroic acts, but did so in the name of racism and anti-semitism.

How is is difficult to understand that a "heroic" act committed for advancing an immoral ideal nullifies its "heroism"?

#379 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-08-14 06:03 PM | Reply

It was a cross in a jar of piss and a statue on display in a public space since the 1920s is a first amendment issue.

#376 | POSTED BY PROLIX247 AT 2017-08-14 06:01 PM | FLAG:

You clearly have no appreciation for art... or theology.

#380 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 06:06 PM | Reply

#374 :-)

#381 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 06:09 PM | Reply

"The Framers did not found the nation in support of slavery, despite some having slaves."

....really? This is your claim?

#382 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 06:10 PM | Reply

Hey regarding U.S. Grant, statue or not?

#383 | Posted by tontonmacoute at 2017-08-14 06:10 PM | Reply

That is funny right there. Unless you are talking about the dead vote.

#372 | Posted by Federalist

Are you dumb enough to say repubs haven't been trying to stop dems from voting?

Federal courts say you're wrong.

#384 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 06:12 PM | Reply

Hey regarding U.S. Grant, statue or not?

#383 | POSTED BY TONTONMACOUTE AT 2017-08-14 06:10 PM | FLAG:

I don't know enough about him to offer an educated opinion on the subject.

#385 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 06:14 PM | Reply

"and not celebrating nazis in spite of their heroic war acts as simple for those of us with moral compasses."

I never said we should celebrate them. I can, however, see how a German soldier, who was drafted against his will, and then who risked his life to save a friend could be seen as carrying out an heroic act within that limited context.

#386 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 06:15 PM | Reply

Sad day in America...

#326 | Posted by Prolix247

Indeed.

Over 300,000 Americans died standing up to the Nazi's in World War II.

We thought that war was over and Nazi's would never again intimate or subjugate anyone.

Yet this weekend another American had to die standing up to them again.

#387 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-08-14 06:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I've decided not to plonk. Instead I'm going to either ignore straw men and ad hominem or I'm just going to respond with the Ashton stamp, if I can find it.

#388 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 06:34 PM | Reply

#382, Slavery wasn't the issue at the time. King George III declared the Ohio valley belonged to the savages, they didn't want to pay taxes to pay for the debts incurred for the French and Indian War etc.

Soon after the Revolutionary war they didn't want to pay taxes for the debts for that.

Whiskey Rebellion, solved with force.

Slavery didn't come up much.

#389 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 06:40 PM | Reply

"The Framers did not found the nation in support of slavery, despite some having slaves."
....really? This is your claim?

#382 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

My bad, I assumed people don't celebrate our founders being slaveowners. If you (for some reason) celebrate that, I think it is pathetic.

#390 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-08-14 06:42 PM | Reply

#382, Slavery wasn't the issue at the time. King George III declared the Ohio valley belonged to the savages, they didn't want to pay taxes to pay for the debts incurred for the French and Indian War etc.
Soon after the Revolutionary war they didn't want to pay taxes for the debts for that.
Whiskey Rebellion, solved with force.
Slavery didn't come up much.

#389 | POSTED BY BRUCEAZ AT 2017-08-14 06:40 PM | FLAG:

Shouldn't it have?

#391 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 06:43 PM | Reply

My bad, I assumed people don't celebrate our founders being slaveowners.

#390 | POSTED BY INDIANAJONES AT 2017-08-14 06:42 PM | FLAG:

Your claim that they didn't found a nation in support of slavery is manifestly wrong. They worked slavery into the system. That is my point. Your efforts to separate the two are not very convincing.

#392 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 06:44 PM | Reply

#388 Good Plonking is a sign of weakness. Scroll past. It's like people that shun, disgusting.

#393 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 06:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Jones,

Sacrificing one's life to save the lives of others is a heroic act.

#394 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 06:46 PM | Reply

Sacrificing one's life to save the lives of others is a heroic act.

#394 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 06:46 PM | FLAG:

Because you say so? Even if it furthers a greater injustice? What sort of ethos is that? I never did get a response (to no one's surprise).

#395 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 06:49 PM | Reply

#391 Of course it should've, kind of my point in post #377

#396 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 06:49 PM | Reply

Sacrificing one's life to save the lives of others is a heroic act.

#394 | Posted by JeffJ

Sacrificing your life to save a bunch of active horny pedophiles would be heroic?

#397 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 06:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#397

Eliminate the qualifiers. My statement made no reference to who was saved.

#398 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 06:53 PM | Reply

I don't know enough about him to offer an educated opinion on the subject.

#385 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

You don't know enough about U.S. Grant yet you are going on and on about the American Civil War? Wow!

#399 | Posted by tontonmacoute at 2017-08-14 06:55 PM | Reply

#392 by DIRKSTRUAN;

The goal of founding the nation was not to preserve slavery as is the case of the formation of the CSA. Yes, the EC was established to appease slave colonies, but the was not the driving reason the revolution took place. There is a difference. We celebrate the framers as revolutionists, not slave-owners. Honoring confederates' "heroic" acts are honoring acts of heroism saving persons lives that were actively trying to kill union Americans.

#394;

Yes Jeff it is. One heroic act does not make one a hero though. You can also acknowledge an act as heroic without praising it or building statues of the actor.

Why is that so difficult to understand? Robert E. Lee is a union traitor. Even if he saved a baby lamb from a burning building, he was still acting to overthrow our government to save the institution of slavery -- an immoral act.

#400 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-08-14 06:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Eliminate the qualifiers. My statement made no reference to who was saved.

#398 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 06:53 PM | FLAG:

So yes, in Jeff's world, an act that makes life worse for humanity can be heroic. Bizarre and perverse in the extreme...

#401 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 06:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

You don't know enough about U.S. Grant yet you are going on and on about the American Civil War? Wow!

#399 | POSTED BY TONTONMACOUTE AT 2017-08-14 06:55 PM | FLAG:

...but I am not doing that.

#402 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 06:56 PM | Reply

Eliminate the qualifiers. My statement made no reference to who was saved.

#398 | Posted by JeffJ

Exactly. Which is what determines whether it's heroic or not.

All this is still more semantics and word games with decent people on one side, and you and the nazis on the other.

#403 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 06:56 PM | Reply

"The goal of founding the nation was not to preserve slavery as is the case of the formation of the CSA. Yes, the EC was established to appease slave colonies, but the was not the driving reason the revolution took place."

So what? It created a massive slave state.

"There is a difference. We celebrate the framers as revolutionists, not slave-owners."

CSA apologists say the same thing...

"Honoring confederates' "heroic" acts are honoring acts of heroism saving persons lives that were actively trying to kill union Americans."

I tend to agree. But all the same, your position contradicts itself.

#404 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 06:58 PM | Reply

Jones,

That's exactly how I see it. Perhaps I've done a poor job of articulating that.

#405 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 06:59 PM | Reply

#403

I made no references to Nazis with that post.

You had to insert Nazis into that because you couldn't refute what I said without a straw man.

#406 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 07:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Other things we can applaud under Jeff's "ethics":

The cleverness of con artists.

The athleticism of people who punch racial minorities repeatedly in the face.

The artistic skill of racist propagandists.

#407 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:02 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#405 was referring to #400

#408 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 07:03 PM | Reply

I made no references to Nazis with that post.
You had to insert Nazis into that because you couldn't refute what I said without a straw man.

#406 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 07:01 PM | FLAG:

White supremacists, then. A distinction without a difference.

#409 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:03 PM | Reply

#407

You can't refute that post without straw man. You can't.

#410 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 07:04 PM | Reply

It created a massive slave state.

It already was a massive slave state.

It was the White Man's Burden ,can'tcha understand. ( sarc)

#411 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 07:04 PM | Reply

Nope. No mention of white supremacists either.

#412 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 07:05 PM | Reply

I don't know enough about him to offer an educated opinion on the subject.

#385 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2017-08-14 06:14 PM

That has never, ever stopped you before Boyduhh, why stop now?

#413 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-08-14 07:08 PM | Reply

You can't refute that post without straw man. You can't.

#410 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 07:04 PM | FLAG:

Strawman? It is the logical extension of your argument that we can salute praiseworthy qualities expressed by people even in the course of nonpraiseworthy activities. Not my fault you lack the intellectual courage to accept the consequences of your own line of thinking...

#414 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:08 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#374

Wait, what? JeffJ is really Sammy Davis Jr.?

#415 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-08-14 07:10 PM | Reply

That has never, ever stopped you before Boyduhh, why stop now?

#413 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER AT 2017-08-14 07:08 PM | FLAG:

Oh, I am quite restrained in that regard. As opposed to idiots like you who, say, offer medical diagnoses of people they know nothing about?

#416 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:10 PM | Reply

Nope. No mention of white supremacists either.

#412 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 07:05 PM | FLAG:

In that post? No. In your others? Of course. Stop being obtuse.

#417 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:11 PM | Reply

Straw man?

Yes, straw man.

I made no mention of who was saved.

Can you refute it without straw man arguments?

You can't.

#418 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 07:11 PM | Reply

In America you get food to eat
Don't have to run through the
jungle and scuff up your feet
Sing about Jesus and drink wine all
day.......

Ain't no lion ain't no tiger ain't
no mamba snake
Just the sweet watermelon and the
buckwheat cake.

Randy Newman, love that guy.

#419 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 07:12 PM | Reply

In that post?

Yes, in that post. That post is a general statement. You can't refute it without a straw man.

#420 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 07:13 PM | Reply

"Yes, straw man."

Nope. I have already shown how my characterization follows from your argument. Your response?

"I made no mention of who was saved."

So what? That doesn't help you.

#421 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#415, I was gonna say that, but didn't have the balls. Good one.

#422 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 07:14 PM | Reply

Can you refute it without straw man arguments?

You can't.

#418 | Posted by JeffJ

Let's count the number of times jeff has cried STRAW MAN on this thread so far.

It seems to pop out whenever someone points out that he's playing word games in defense of racists and nazis.

#423 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 07:15 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"That post is a general statement. You can't refute it without a straw man."

You defended the founders. Ergo you defended white supremacists. QED.

You deflected to leftists in threads about white supremacists. That is running interference, slick. No strawman necessary: you are caught red handed, per usual.

#424 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:16 PM | Reply

Let's count the number of times jeff has cried STRAW MAN on this thread so far.
It seems to pop out whenever someone points out that he's playing word games in defense of racists and nazis.
#423 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2017-08-14 07:15 PM | FLAG:

He has now moved on to denying he ever did so. Hilarious.

#425 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:17 PM | Reply

For Jeff, Nazis and slave owners can be heroes. Until
Someone points out how awful that claim is and then STRAWMAN! Obama is worse! BLM are terrorists! Deflectors to full power!

#426 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:20 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Let's count the number of times jeff has cried STRAW MAN on this thread so far.

Wow, it is exactly equal to the number of times that you and Boyduhhstruan have set them up in response to his posts!

Amazing how that works.

#427 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-08-14 07:20 PM | Reply

Wow, it is exactly equal to the number of times that you and Boyduhhstruan have set them up in response to his posts!
Amazing how that works.

#427 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER AT 2017-08-14 07:20 PM | FLAG:

Looks like Jeffj has a pet....

#428 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:21 PM | Reply

Dude, he did condemn it. He called Nazi's and the KKK thugs, and said there was no place for them in America.

Before that, he was all "We should all come together and love each-other right now".

But the liberals hated the message, because it didn't condemn group X.

#429 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 07:28 PM | Reply

"There is a difference. We celebrate the framers as revolutionists, not slave-owners."
CSA apologists say the same thing...
"Honoring confederates' "heroic" acts are honoring acts of heroism saving persons lives that were actively trying to kill union Americans."
I tend to agree. But all the same, your position contradicts itself.
#404 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I don't believe my statement is contradictory because I am still able to acknowledge that the Framer's owning of slaves was shameful and should not be honored.

CSA apologists may say the same thing, but they do so baselessly. I can point to good things that came from the Framer's revolution. I cannot point to anything good that the confederacy represented. In other words, there are no honorable deeds Robert E Lee committed that are worth praising. His praise and the statues in his likeness were all created to honor dishonorable actions and philosophy.

#430 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-08-14 07:31 PM | Reply

"But the liberals hated the message, because it didn't condemn group X.

#429 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT"

No, we hated his message because he made a huge deal about Obama not saying the phrase "radical Islamic terrorist" then he goes and fails to call radical white supremacist terrorism "radical white supremacist terrorism".

Just like it isn't his golfing we are upset about, it is the fact that he is golfing so much despite criticizing Obama for golfing 1/10th the amount he has.

It is the hypocrisy we cannot stand, but if you could see the hypocrisy, you wouldn't be a trump-sympathizer.

#431 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-08-14 07:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"I don't believe my statement is contradictory because I am still able to acknowledge that the Framer's owning of slaves was shameful and should not be honored."

So, where do we draw the line? One could find good things about anyone.... but we are particular about who we honor. Should we build a Hitler statue to honor his speaking ability or love of country or something similar?

"CSA apologists may say the same thing, but they do so baselessly. I can point to good things that came from the Framer's revolution. I cannot point to anything good that the confederacy represented."

States right? State pride? Gentility? CSA apologists always have something to offer that was a "good" that "really motivated" people to fight...

#432 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:36 PM | Reply

But the liberals hated the message, because it didn't condemn group X.

#429 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-14 07:28 PM | FLAG:

Why won't he condemn the Alt right until he's forced?

#433 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:41 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Dirk,

Please Google the term "circular argument". It defines you to a "t".

#434 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 07:48 PM | Reply

#423

I'm engaged in discussion with you and Dirk. Duh! Your post is akin to complaining about the frequency of the word "liar" being used a lot on a thread about Trump's character.

BTW - you still haven't refuted my statement.

#435 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 07:53 PM | Reply

Please Google the term "circular argument". It defines you to a "t".

#434 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 07:48 PM | FLAG:

I am a circular argument? Oh the horror! To find out I am merely a rhetorical concept rather than the one running roughshod over Jeffy's barely coherent rantings!

Oh, or do you perhaps mean that I am MAKING a circular argument somewhere, oh semi-literate one? And, if so, perhaps you'd like to point it out?

#436 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:53 PM | Reply

"Strawman! STRAWMAN! Oh, but I don't like Trump either, so it is okay that I run interference for Nazis!"

-Jeffylube

#437 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:56 PM | Reply

Hey Jeff, how is it that you support the founders as people when as people they enslaved and raped people (among other things)? How do you reconcile that?

#438 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 07:58 PM | Reply

BTW - you still haven't refuted my statement.

#435 | Posted by JeffJ

Which statement?

The one where you took the "all sides to blame" argument?

The one where you said russia was a nothingburger?

Tell me what I'm supposed to be refuting.

#439 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 08:05 PM | Reply

Hey Jeff, how is heroism possible on the unjust side of a war when any act of heroism in said war helps injustice? "Because I say so." is not An answer.

#440 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 08:07 PM | Reply

#439, why even ask? He'll just change it when it suits him.

#441 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 08:09 PM | Reply

#394

#442 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 08:09 PM | Reply

#394

#442 | Posted by JeffJ

Why? WHat do you get out of arguing the definition of "heroism?"
It's been beaten to death on this thread and has noting to do with trump being afraid to upset the bigots in his base.

You think a hero can be someone who saves the worlds worst pedophile, or someone who was a traitor to the nation and murdered american citizens in the civil war.

We get it.

#443 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 08:37 PM | Reply

RegArding statues of confederate traitors when will they remove Lee's statue out of the rotund at the capital? I have to say I was surprised to see it in the capital. No statue of general Howe or Col. Pieper with him.
Though Lee certainly had a lot more blood on his hands than either of them.

#444 | Posted by Badcat at 2017-08-14 08:53 PM | Reply

#443

You clearly don't get it.

Because you just erected yet another straw man.

You can't refute my statement and I think that seriously pisses you off.

#445 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 09:12 PM | Reply

You can't refute my statement and I think that seriously pisses you off.

#445 | Posted by JeffJ

I honestly can't even tell what "your statement" is.

If it's just arguing about the definition of "heroism", then I'm not pissed off, I'm just baffled as to your obsession over vocabulary words and semantics.

Usually people who decide to sidetrack debates into arguments over the definitions of words are trying to squirm out of a position they regret taking.

#446 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 09:16 PM | Reply

It's not even a definition of heroism. It's a simple statement regarding a heroic act. That you have to assign nefarious motives to me suggests to me you are pissed that you can't refute it.

#447 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 09:30 PM | Reply

Which position am I trying to squirm out of? The 5 that you falsely assigned to me?

#448 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 09:31 PM | Reply

I was talking to my friend who knows a lot about the Civil War, and he said Bell Irvin Wiley did a study of Civil War soldiers and one of the conclusions he came to through reading hundreds of soldiers' letters and diaries is that only 10% of Union soldiers were fighting to free the slaves. Most of them were fighting to preserve the Union, and many of them had attitudes toward race that were typical of that time, which means they would be considered racist by today's standards. Are they still heroes and worthy of our gratitude? I think so, but they, like most of the rest of us, were far from perfect.

#449 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 09:33 PM | Reply

Gal,

That kind of nuanced analysis is unwelcome on this thread.

Thank you for sharing that.

#450 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 09:39 PM | Reply

It's not even a definition of heroism. It's a simple statement regarding a heroic act. That you have to assign nefarious motives to me suggests to me you are pissed that you can't refute it.

#447 | Posted by JeffJ

It's arguing over semantics. The sign of a loser in a debate.

#451 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-08-14 09:42 PM | Reply

"Most of them were fighting to preserve the Union, and many of them had attitudes toward race that were typical of that time, which means they would be considered racist by today's standards. Are they still heroes and worthy of our gratitude? I think so, but they, like most of the rest of us, were far from perfect."

I don't see how it's heroic to get drafted and sent off to war.

I do see how it's an incredible personal injustice which is suffered for some sort of "greater good."

I don't see why it's seen as necessary to call those called on by society to carry out violence as heroes.

Most soldiers share my view that they are not heroes, they are just doing a job.

#452 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 09:51 PM | Reply

"Because you just erected yet another straw man. "

It's like you still don't realize that statues of prominent Confederate actors erected decades after the war are overt acts of racism.

#453 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 09:53 PM | Reply

It's not semantics at all. It's a simple statement. Either you can refute it or you can't.

You just don't like the implication of not being able to refute it. You wouldn't need your straw men and you wouldn't need to label me as beneath contempt either if you felt you could refute it. You'd just do it. You certainly won't affirm it and we all know why.

#454 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 09:54 PM | Reply

Which position am I trying to squirm out of? The 5 that you falsely assigned to me?

#448 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 09:31 PM | FLAG:

That battlefield heroics are possible in service of an unjust cause? That you support the honoring of rapists and slave holders? That it is not a deflection to prattle about leftists on a thread about rightists? Take your pick!

#455 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 09:58 PM | Reply

#449

Again, doesn't change a damned thing. Why are you so obsessed with motive?

#456 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 09:59 PM | Reply

"It's not even a definition of heroism. It's a simple statement regarding a heroic act."

What it is is an unsupported assertion that posits a deeply problematic definition of a heroic act. You spit it out, dismiss the teasing out of the implications of your position as strawmen, and demand that people prove you wrong. Here's a novel idea, you complete moron: it's your assertion, so prove it right. THEN we can talk.

#457 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 10:04 PM | Reply

#452 Yes, I can see all that too.

#450 I knew some people who lived in Nazi Germany. One was in the Hitler Youth, the other was an engineer in the air force. Not by choice. Neither were Nazis. Both came here after the war. The Hitler youth guy became a US Marine. Sometimes people get caught up in societal forces that are beyond the control of any individual. I've been thinking about my Hitler youth friend today, wondering what he would say about what happened in C-ville.

#458 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 10:05 PM | Reply

"Sometimes people get caught up in societal forces that are beyond the control of any individual."

So what? They should get a pat on the back for helping the Nazis?

#459 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 10:12 PM | Reply

It's like you still don't realize that statues of prominent Confederate actors erected decades after the war are overt acts of racism.

#453 | Posted by snoofy

Those are war memorials, you dumb-ass troll. Robert E. Lee was neither a racist or a slave owner, he was a soldier called to duty.

Remember that in Russia there are memorials to hundreds of thousands of Nazi troops, and in Germany there are memorials to the Russians.

You just don't understand the importance of memorials and man's graves, do you?

You need to wake up.

#460 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:13 PM | Reply

"Those are war memorials, you dumb-ass troll."

They are memorials to the Confederacy which makes them memorials to what the Confederacy stood for.

This is the undeniable truth.

#461 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:15 PM | Reply

Jeff, I can imagine my German born friend laying down his life for a friend in an attempt to make a contemptible situation he was forced into have some meaning, and I could see that as an heroic act of a sort. Some people may shout Nazi-lover, except he wasn't, and I have a copy of the book he wrote about his childhood under Hitler to prove it.

#462 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 10:17 PM | Reply

But the liberals hated the message, because it didn't condemn group X.
#429 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT

When the President of the United States will not condemn Nazi's (group X) until basically forced, you are right, we hate the message that sends to Nazi's.

#463 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-08-14 10:17 PM | Reply

"Remember that in Russia there are memorials to hundreds of thousands of Nazi troops, and in Germany there are memorials to the Russians."

Yeah and there are memorials to the German rank and file soldiers too.
I don't even oppose a memorial to Confederate war dead.

That's not the same as statues of specific Confederacy leadership personalities.
How do you not understand such a simple thing?
Because you don't want to.

#464 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:17 PM | Reply

#464 Snoofy

He was a soldier like any other, called to duty. He wasn't a racist or a slave owner. He surrendered his sword when the war was obviously over, instead of dispersing it to create a Southern resistance. To the South, he was a war hero.

He accepted defeat with honor.

What's wrong with his statue?

#465 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:21 PM | Reply

My friend and I transcribed the Civil War letters another friend inherited. In one of the letters, my friend's Union soldier ancestor wrote about how he wasn't going to listen no ni$$er preacher (something they tried to get his Ohio regiment to do). He definitely wasn't fighting to free the slaves, but he did believe in maintaining the Union.

#466 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 10:22 PM | Reply

Memorials are different than statues.
Memorials can be solemn and moving and can commemorate a tragedy.
Statues on the other hand are for people we are supposed to look up to.
Because they did something noble, or honorable, or selfless, or magnanimous.

It's funny that there's now a 500 comment long thread memorializing the fact that JeffJ's political ideology requires him to pretend he doesn't know the difference.

#467 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:23 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"What's wrong with his statue?"

Let's ask the question another way:
Why doesn't every Confederate soldier get a statue?
He was "just a soldier" nobody special, right?

#468 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:24 PM | Reply

In Seattle there is a big statue of Lenin, the world's first communist dictator. Haven't heard about any SJW mobs trying to tear that down.

upload.wikimedia.org

#469 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-08-14 10:26 PM | Reply

"Statues on the other hand are for people we are supposed to look up to."

Robert E. Lee is still admired and studied. Why do you hate him?

#470 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:26 PM | Reply

Why doesn't every Confederate soldier get a statue? - Corky

Why not every Union soldier, dumb-ass troll?

#471 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:28 PM | Reply

Hitler is still admired and studied. Why do you hate him?

#472 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:28 PM | Reply

"In Seattle there is a big statue of Lenin, the world's first communist dictator. Haven't heard about any SJW mobs trying to tear that down."

That statue was brought to Seattle from the former USSR.
Why would we tear down our victory spoils, exactly?

#473 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:29 PM | Reply

#473 Because of Nixon?

#474 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:30 PM | Reply

"Why not every Union soldier, dumb-ass troll?"

The answer is they get a memorial, actually several, likely numbering into the thousands.
My school isn't old enough to have the names of Civil War soldiers on their war memorial, but they have names listed for more recent conflicts.
And it's just a plain granite obelisk, like you'd expect.
So why can't that be good enough for the Confederacy?

#475 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:31 PM | Reply

"To the South, he was a war hero."

What kind of a "hero" loses a war, that badly? LOL!

#476 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:33 PM | Reply

#475 So now you've got monument envy. Well, that's just freaking great. And what exactly makes you think that Southern monuments are better than Northern monuments?

#477 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:34 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#476 John McWar (I mean John McCain) was called a war hero, and all he had to do was serve. Never mind all the Americans he killed by accident. Robert E. Lee was, however, a great military commander.

#478 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:37 PM | Reply

Hard to maintain a coherent conversation when you're always this drunk.

Holler back when you've figured out that the Southerners who put up monuments to Confederate leaders did so to signal their dissatisfaction with the end of the Confederacy, the loss of the state's rights battle over slavery, and, later, the advent of civil rights.

#479 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:38 PM | Reply

"John McWar (I mean John McCain) was called a war hero, and all he had to do was serve"

Not by your President.

Also, it's the six year stay in the Hanoi Hilton which is generally regarded as being the heroic act.

#480 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:39 PM | Reply

"Robert E. Lee was, however, a great military commander."

That's great, but what the South really needed was a cobbler, and someone to teach the three R's.

#481 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:40 PM | Reply

#465 Are you saying Robert E Lee wasn't a slave holder -------- it's well documented and if you read his letters with the help of jesus sometime in the future they could someday be worthy.

#482 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 10:41 PM | Reply

"Robert E. Lee was, however, a great military commander."

In service of a slave state, you twit.

#483 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 10:41 PM | Reply

Anybody see the movie Gettysburg, based on the book Killer Angels? My friend who is a Civil War buff watched it again this July 4th, and I joined him. If that portrayal of Lee is accurate, and I think it is, Lee was a tragic character. Lots of ironies and tragedies in the whole movie, meaning in the whole war. Brother against brother, men who were friends at West Point and who attended each other's wedding leading armies against each other. I'm pretty sure the Union generals would want the Confederate generals, who they called friend, honored today on the battlefields where they fought and many lost their lives. We talk about that war today in a way I think most of them would not understand. It was a big job after the war to try and heal and unite the country. Too bad Lincoln wasn't around to be the first to try his hand at it. It's a big job still today.

#484 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 10:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

" I'm pretty sure the Union generals would want the Confederate generals, who they called friend, honored today on the battlefields where they fought and many lost their lives."

And plenty of baseball players think Pete Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame.
But there's a reason he isn't, and it's a good one.

#485 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:44 PM | Reply

#453 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

When I was in college, a female student wrote a letter to the school newspaper which printed her letter. In it, she stated she was at a frat house "suite party" (a party in the suites in lieu of a party in the basement of the house, which is where the big parties were held) and the room she was in had a Confederate flag. She claimed how uncomfortable it made her and how racist it was to have that flag up. Well, that was one of my fraternity brothers. So, he fired off his own letter (which also got published) informing her that if his personal decorations made her uncomfortable, she was free to leave; that nobody was making her be in his room. Then he added, and I quote: "I think you'll have a hard time convincing my girlfriend, who happens to be black (she was in my wife's sorority and was a really cool chick), that I'm racist. That flag represents my opposition to authority."

My point is, the motivation behind putting up a statue of General Lee could be racist or it could also be something completely different. Regardless of the intent, people are increasingly viewing these symbols as overt acts of racism and it's for this reason that they are starting to be removed as racism is rightly viewed very negatively in this country.

#486 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 10:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Have some respect for the quarter of a million men who died on the Confederate side, and their commander. You don't know a damn thing about service, or you would know that that most soldiers where drafted in the Civil War.

#487 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:45 PM | Reply

That was for snoofy, #481

#488 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:46 PM | Reply

Robert E. Lee is still admired and studied.

Which is fine. That's why we have museums and history books.

Robert E Lee was a traitor to the nation and it's baffling he still has statues. Or had any in the first place...

#489 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-08-14 10:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I think all we have to do today to solve the North/South divide is to figure out what to do about snoofy, and people like him.

#490 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:50 PM | Reply

Damn!

I can't find the Ashton Stamp.

It is SCREAMING to be used on this thread (that's not directed at you, Snoofy. Not yet, anyway).

#491 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 10:50 PM | Reply

My point is, the motivation behind putting up a statue of General Lee could be racist or it could also be something completely different. Regardless of the intent, people are increasingly viewing these symbols as overt acts of racism and it's for this reason that they are starting to be removed as racism is rightly viewed very negatively in this country.

#486 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 10:44 PM | FLAG:

The intent doesn't matter. It is a racist symbol. Nice display of tokenism in your little story by the way.

#492 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 10:51 PM | Reply

"That flag represents my opposition to authority."

The war was a manifestation of said opposition to authority.

Tell me about the intolerable conditions imposed by the authorities the war opposed. Loss of property rights over slaves, yes?

Anyway, your story amounts to nothing more than one Docnjo related the other day, that the person who owned the most slaves in the South at the time of the Great Rebellion was herself black.

#493 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 10:51 PM | Reply

#480 Mostly because McCain could have gone home because of his Admiral dad and refused.

#494 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 10:52 PM | Reply

#489

There are a quarter million ghosts behind that statue. Good luck.

#495 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 10:52 PM | Reply

"I can't find the Ashton Stamp." - #491 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 10:50 PM

[stamp]
Please explain. Your claim is ridiculous. Stop repeating what you hear and educate yourself. What exactly was that supposed to prove? When your point is based entirely on an assumption, you didn't have a point to begin with. In order to make your point, you had to make something up completely. See the problem? Anything else that you would like to make up? The rest of your post was just mindless. I think you have only shown that you assume too much.
Do you ever actually understand what you are commenting on or does stupidity just take hold? Does anyone really understand what this person is babbling about?
[/stamp]

#496 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 10:53 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Actually,

The Ashton Stamp would be very appropriate for Snoofy's #467.

#497 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 10:53 PM | Reply

It is SCREAMING to be used on this thread (that's not directed at you, Snoofy. Not yet, anyway).

#491 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 10:50 PM | FLAG:

So, no responses to any of the questions posed to you, huh? What a shock.

#498 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 10:53 PM | Reply

Hans to the rescue!

Thank you, sir.

#499 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 10:54 PM | Reply

"Thank you, sir." - #499 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 10:54 PM

De nada, JeffJ.

#500 | Posted by Hans at 2017-08-14 10:55 PM | Reply

But the liberals hated the message, because it didn't condemn group X.
#429 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT
When the President of the United States will not condemn Nazi's (group X) until basically forced, you are right, we hate the message that sends to Nazi's.

#463 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY

The white supremacists touted his initial response as his (tacit) support. I think that is the only reason he finally spoke out specifically against them, because it was making him look even worse than usual.

#501 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 10:57 PM | Reply

I just archived it on my home computer, which means it's also on my phone.

#502 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 10:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

My Civil War buff friend has a bunch of Civil War paintings in his home, one of which is of Robert E. Lee. That surprised me as he lives in the North and does living history from the perspective of a Union solider. He also teaches course like slavery and the Civil War. It turns out that once upon a time a former girlfriend gave him the painting as a gift. It's a nice painting. Lee looks very stately in it. He doesn't have it hanging on the wall because he wants to celebrate slavery. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and a painting is just a thought that was meant well.

#503 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 11:02 PM | Reply

I Think it's weird that saying "Can't we all come together and love one another right now?" makes you a Nazi.

#504 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:03 PM | Reply

#504 was for JeffJ at #501.

#505 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:05 PM | Reply

#503

You never tire of apologizing for these CSA enthusiasts.

#506 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:05 PM | Reply

I Think it's weird that saying "Can't we all come together and love one another right now?" makes you a Nazi.

#504 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-14 11:03 PM | FLAG:

Why didn't he condemn the neo-Nazis until he was forced?

#507 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:06 PM | Reply

#506 CSA = Community Supported Agriculture? Google doesn't help.

#508 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:08 PM | Reply

"Have some respect for the quarter of a million men who died on the Confederate side, and their commander. You don't know a damn thing about service, or you would know that that most soldiers where drafted in the Civil War."

And they usually fought side by side with their brothers, cousins, neighbors and friends, so when the man next to them got killed, it quite literally hit close to home.

#509 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 11:09 PM | Reply

#507 He did condemn them, both sides - the Nazi's and the anarcho-communists. He said that hate had no place in America. That we where all Americans. But no, liberals wanted a more detailed list of hate.

#510 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:10 PM | Reply

#507 He did condemn them, both sides - the Nazi's and the anarcho-communists. He said that hate had no place in America. That we where all Americans. But no, liberals wanted a more detailed list of hate.

#510 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-14 11:10 PM | FLAG:

He didn't mention them by name. And he placed as much blame on their victims. You are fine with that, of course.

#511 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:14 PM | Reply

"My point is, the motivation behind putting up a statue of General Lee could be racist or it could also be something completely different."

Only someone who wants to be thought of as potentially racist picks such an ambiguous symbol.

And someone who wishes to be mistaken for racist is, if not racist, how about... looking for trouble.

This is not to say you can't have someone like that for a friend; just that what they're doing is a dick move.

That black girl going with a white guy, could lie antiparallel to the white cheerleader in my high school who was secretly dating the black guy on the team because her parents forbade interracial relationships. As in, it wasn't so much him, but the symbolism of him, likely to get a "WTF" from others, which is the same thing your friend is doing with his "ambigious" flag.

Look, if your boy had put up a rainbow flag and said "To me this represents intolerance of authority" you'd think he was very, very confused. You would advise them to take that flag down if they wanted to continue their time in the house, and it, or he, would probably not withstand the groupthink if he refused to take it down; one or the other or both would have to go.

And that is because flags have meanings.

The Confederate flag represents the ideals that led ten states to engage in rebellion against the United States from 1861-1865.

Culturally it's woven into a lot of other things, for example the Confederate flag tacked up in rock and roll bar in Germany just means "we like Skynyd and AC DC" even though AC DC isn't even from America it's sometimes categorized as Southern Rock. Maybe they mean southern hemisphere. Who cares.

This story gets a whole lot darker for you if you would have tolerated a Nazi flag as a symbol of opposition to authority. I bet you wouldn't have. So you'll have to explain to me why the actions and ideals of the Confederacy fall into "let's fly these colors" category, when those of the Third Reich obviously don't.

#512 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

And they usually fought side by side with their brothers, cousins, neighbors and friends, so when the man next to them got killed, it quite literally hit close to home.

#509 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY AT 2017-08-14 11:09 PM | FLAG:

So who cares if they supported a slave state, eh?

#513 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:16 PM | Reply

#507 He did condemn them, both sides - the Nazi's and the anarcho-communists. He said that hate had no place in America. That we where all Americans. But no, liberals wanted a more detailed list of hate.

#510 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT

What people took umbrage to was his initial muddled response, when clarity was needed and the fact that it took him 2 days before he specifically called out the Neo Nazis and white supremacists. We can debate whether or not that's a fair criticism (I think it is).

#514 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 11:17 PM | Reply

"The white supremacists touted his initial response as his (tacit) support"

Everybody but you and every Trump voter did that.

#515 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:18 PM | Reply

"The white supremacists touted his initial response as his (tacit) support"

Everybody but you and every Trump voter did that.

#516 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:18 PM | Reply

----.

#517 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:18 PM | Reply

This is why I gave up on being a liberal and became a moderate. Liberals are locked into identity politics, where every power block hates the other power block due to it's privilege or whatever.

Republicans are at least unified as a cohesive force.

Liberalism needs to go back to they way it was before it was infiltrated by communists from the Frankfurt school. Back then, everybody understood free speech and equal rights, not this Critical Theory crap.

#518 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:19 PM | Reply

In this case the Black Clads defended those who were being attacked by the racist Nazis and the Alt-right while the cops stood by and watched and did nothing for awhile.

#519 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2017-08-14 11:19 PM | Reply

"This is why I gave up on being a liberal and became a moderate. Liberals are locked into identity politics, where every power block hates the other power block due to it's privilege or whatever."

What do you have against social justice? I'll bet I can guess.

"Republicans are at least unified as a cohesive force."

Of hatred.

"Liberalism needs to go back to they way it was before it was infiltrated by communists from the Frankfurt school. Back then, everybody understood free speech and equal rights, not this Critical Theory crap."

You don't know the first thing about Critical Theory, you ignorant wretch.

#520 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:24 PM | Reply

#520 I know that you are died in the wool Stalinist who believes the Holodomor where 7-10 million Ukrainians where starved to death was caused by Western sanctions, and not the deliberate policies of Stalin.

But please, tell me all about Critical Theory, comrade.

#521 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:27 PM | Reply

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and a painting is just a thought that was meant well.

POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY AT 2017-08-14 11:02 PM | REPLY

And sometimes a cigar is a sexual stimulation device.

#522 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-08-14 11:28 PM | Reply

Republicans are at least unified as a cohesive force.

Hehe that's what Mitch McConnell thought.

#523 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 11:31 PM | Reply

"But please, tell me all about Critical Theory, comrade."

You are a crackpot who believes that Critical Theory is a Stalinist conspiracy. Trying to explain it to you, is like trying to teach Italian to a muskrat.

#524 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:32 PM | Reply

I accept your surrender. Now hand over your sword.

#525 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:33 PM | Reply

#522 hmmm too much information new lady

#526 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-14 11:33 PM | Reply

So you'll have to explain to me why the actions and ideals of the Confederacy fall into "let's fly these colors" category, when those of the Third Reich obviously don't.

#512 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

That's the thing about symbols. They mean different things to different people.

That black girl going with a white guy, could lie antiparallel to the white cheerleader in my high school who was secretly dating the black guy on the team because her parents forbade interracial relationships. As in, it wasn't so much him, but the symbolism of him, likely to get a "WTF" from others, which is the same thing your friend is doing with his "ambigious" flag.

If she had dated him for a couple of months, I night buy that argument. They had been dating for 2 years when he graduated (he was a year older than me). I do know that he came back for her Sorority formal a year after he graduated, so they were together for at least 3 years, one of which was a relationship maintained at a distance. He and I weren't particularly close and I didn't keep in touch with him after he graduated, so I don't know if they eventually got married, but that was the direction things were moving.

This story gets a whole lot darker for you if you would have tolerated a Nazi flag as a symbol of opposition to authority. I bet you wouldn't have.

That's a wise bet. :-)

So you'll have to explain to me why the actions and ideals of the Confederacy fall into "let's fly these colors" category, when those of the Third Reich obviously don't.

#512 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I never considered things like the Confederate flag to be symbols of racism. When it's explained in the manner that you've explained it - yeah, I can totally see how it can be viewed as an overt act of racism. It always came across as a 'Southern pride' thing to me. Like I said, I completely see where you are coming from and I think what you are saying is becoming a more mainstream view, which is why these symbols are starting to be removed from the public sphere. I guess that I never saw the racist angle of it until recently is....naivete.

#527 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 11:34 PM | Reply

I accept your surrender. Now hand over your sword.

#525 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-14 11:33 PM | FLAG:

You are embarassing yourself.

#528 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:35 PM | Reply

--But please, tell me all about Critical Theory, comrade.

His buddies in action today in Seattle.

i0.wp.com

i1.wp.com

#529 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-08-14 11:37 PM | Reply

"I guess that I never saw the racist angle of it until recently is....naiveté."

Sure, let's go with that...

#530 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:38 PM | Reply

"I never considered things like the Confederate flag to be symbols of racism."

We can get to the bottom of this rather quickly.
Two questions, please answer:
Do you consider it to be a symbol of the Confederacy?
Was the Confederacy racist?

#531 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

His buddies in action today in Seattle.
i0.wp.com
i1.wp.com

#529 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2017-08-14 11:37 PM | FLAG:

Not such a big fan of free speech after all, huh you damned hypocrite?

#532 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I wonder if Dirk doesn't think motivation is important because he doesn't want anyone to question his?

#533 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 11:39 PM | Reply

I wonder if Dirk doesn't think motivation is important because he doesn't want anyone to question his?

#534 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 11:39 PM | Reply

#528 Dirk, you're a Stalinist communist. You should be embarrassed. That's like saying North Korea is a paradise today.

#535 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:40 PM | Reply

I wonder if Dirk doesn't think motivation is important because he doesn't want anyone to question his?

#533 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY AT 2017-08-14 11:39 PM | FLAG:

Nope, but thanks for playing.

What's your excuse?

#536 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:40 PM | Reply

#528 Dirk, you're a Stalinist communist.
#535 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-14 11:40 PM | FLAG:

As is anyone who questions your dogma, I suppose. Who do you think you are fooling?

#537 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:41 PM | Reply

We can get to the bottom of this rather quickly.
Two questions, please answer:
Do you consider it to be a symbol of the Confederacy?
Was the Confederacy racist?

Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:38 PM | Reply

No

www.history.com

Myth #4: The Union went to war to end slavery.

On the Northern side, the rose-colored myth of the Civil War is that the blue-clad Union soldiers and their brave, doomed leader, Abraham Lincoln, were fighting to free the slaves. They weren't, at least not initially; they were fighting to hold the nation together. Lincoln was known to personally oppose slavery (which is why the South seceded after his election in 1860), but his chief goal was preserving the Union. In August 1862, he famously wrote to the New York Tribune: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."

The slaves themselves helped make the case for emancipation as a military aim, fleeing in droves beyond the lines of approaching Union armies. Early in the conflict, some of Lincoln's generals helped the president understand that sending these men and women back to ------- could only help the Confederate cause. By the fall of 1862, Lincoln had become convinced that acting to end slavery was a necessary step. A month after his letter to Greeley, Lincoln announced the Emancipation Proclamation, which would take effect in January 1863. More a practical wartime measure than a true liberation, it proclaimed free all slaves in the rebel states, but not those in the border slavery states, which Lincoln needed to remain loyal to the Union.

#538 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-08-14 11:44 PM | Reply

#537 Nope. I except a broad range of people into my political tent. Just not dyed-in-the-wool communists or Nazi's. And maybe not some libertarians.

#539 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:44 PM | Reply

"No
www.history.com
Myth #4: The Union went to war to end slavery."

Those are separate issues. The Confederate States went to war to preserve slavery.

#540 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:46 PM | Reply

Do you consider it to be a symbol of the Confederacy?
Was the Confederacy racist?

Yes, and yes.

That misses the point I was making though. The manner in which I saw it used never came across as racist to me. My frat brother story being one example. The way it was used in the Dukes of Hazard is another example.

I have a couple of friends who are racists and they don't fly that flag. The instances I have seen it flown were by people who aren't racists. That has been my personal experience and it's that experience that drove my opinion.

Again, I totally get where you are coming from and, as I've already stated, that more and more people see displaying these symbols as an act of racism, regardless of the intent behind the display, is why we are seeing these symbols removed from public squares.

#541 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 11:47 PM | Reply

"Was the Confederacy racist?
Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:38 PM | Reply
No
www.history.com
Myth #4: The Union went to war to end slavery"

Laura, that's not responsive to the question of whether the Confederacy was racist.
(Hint: Even the Union was racist. It's not a hard question!)

#542 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:47 PM | Reply

#537 Nope. I except a broad range of people into my political tent. Just not dyed-in-the-wool communists or Nazi's. And maybe not some libertarians.

#539 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-14 11:44 PM | FLAG:

Since you are a moron who can't tell a Stalinist from a critical theorist, that is not super comforting.

#543 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:47 PM | Reply

I wonder if Dirk doesn't think motivation is important because he doesn't want anyone to question his?

#534 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

I think Dirk may have gotten the permanent boot.

All of his posts have been deleted, even on threads that were posted a month ago.

#544 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-14 11:48 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

2% of Southerners held slaves, but they where the political elite.

The people that died where all commoners, farmers, tradesmen, etc....

And they where drafted into an unjust war.

And you want to tear down their memorial?

#545 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:49 PM | Reply

#538 TY, Laura. You cited the exact quote I was referring to earlier but not as succinctly as I should have.

#546 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 11:49 PM | Reply

"That misses the point I was making though. The manner in which I saw it used never came across as racist to me. My frat brother story being one example."

Manner? It is a symbol of a racist state. So, it is a racist symbol. This is not complicated.

#547 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:50 PM | Reply

"2% of Southerners held slaves, but they where the political elite."

Yep, rich man's war, poor man's fight.

#548 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 11:50 PM | Reply

#548 Aren't most all wars that way?

#549 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-14 11:52 PM | Reply

And you want to tear down their memorial?

#545 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-14 11:49 PM | FLAG:

Valorizing their leaders isn't a "memorial" of what you describe.

#550 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:52 PM | Reply

Yep, rich man's war, poor man's fight.

Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 11:50 PM | Reply

Isn't that usually the case in most wars???

#551 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-08-14 11:53 PM | Reply

I think Dirk may have gotten the permanent boot.
All of his posts have been deleted, even on threads that were posted a month ago.

#544 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-14 11:48 PM | FLAG:

Think again.

#552 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:53 PM | Reply

"Dirk, you're a Stalinist communist. You should be embarrassed. That's like saying North Korea is a paradise today."

As far as I can tell, Dirk is a self-righteous alpha male (at least verbally) who always thinks he's right.

Oh, did I say that out loud?

#553 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 11:54 PM | Reply

"Isn't that usually the case in most wars???"

Yes. I actually wrote:

Yep, as always: rich man's war, poor man's fight.

But then I deleted the "as always".

#554 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-14 11:56 PM | Reply

"I have a couple of friends who are racists and they don't fly that flag."

Nazi flag then?
And you maintain friendships with these people?
I'm curious as to how you don't find racism simply intolerable.
Did you join some militia because you're so committed to the Constitution, and just happened to gain a high tolerance for being around racist white men as a bonus?

#555 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:57 PM | Reply

"2% of Southerners held slaves, but they where the political elite.
The people that died where all commoners, farmers, tradesmen, etc....
And they where drafted into an unjust war.
And you want to tear down their memorial?"

No, I want to tear down the statue of the political elite that drafted them to fight for slavery.

How come you don't?

#556 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:58 PM | Reply

As far as I can tell, Dirk is a self-righteous alpha male (at least verbally) who always thinks he's right.
Oh, did I say that out loud?

#553 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY AT 2017-08-14 11:54 PM | FLAG:

No, you typed it.

And I would rather be that than a Confederate apologist.

#557 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:58 PM | Reply

"The manner in which I saw it used never came across as racist to me."

Yes, that's really more about you than it is anything else in this universe.

Hopefully it will come across as racist to you now, because that's how it comes across to everyone in this thread that isn't named HeliumRat.

#558 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-14 11:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

As far as I can tell, Dirk is a self-righteous alpha male (at least verbally) who always thinks he's right

You spelled Snoofy wrong.

#559 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 12:00 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

No, you typed it.

And I would rather be that than a Confederate apologist.

#557 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-14 11:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Go to Gettysburg the Civil War sites and learn something before you spew your nonsense. It might help you. Go to

#560 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-08-15 12:01 AM | Reply

Go to Gettysburg the Civil War sites and learn something before you spew your nonsense. It might help you. Go to

#560 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR AT 2017-08-15 12:01 AM | FLAG:

What will I learn, I wonder? To apologize for racists?

#561 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 12:03 AM | Reply

The rich have more to lose.

Reminds me of the political state, I'm struggling now but in the future I'll own me some slaves too, so in the mean time I'll vote against my interests.

#562 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 12:03 AM | Reply

What will I learn, I wonder? To apologize for racists?

Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 12:03 AM | Reply

WOW You have much to learn. The Civil War isn't as cut and dried like so many make it.

#563 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-08-15 12:05 AM | Reply

"The Civil War isn't as cut and dried like so many make it."

Thankfully, we've boiled down all the racism and bigotry into one convenient flag!

YEE-HAW (General Lee horn sounds)

There's no going back, Laura.

#564 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 12:06 AM | Reply

"I'm struggling now but in the future I'll own me some slaves too,"

Well, there is that. Many who didn't own slaves aspired to owning them. Just because someone wasn't financially able to own slaves didn't mean they opposed the institution.

#565 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2017-08-15 12:07 AM | Reply

What's wrong with his statue?

#465 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT

He's the leader of the single greatest attack on our country throughout history.

The only statues made in his likeness should feature him hung for treason.

#566 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-08-15 12:07 AM | Reply

And I really do apologize for leaving you out of this list, so here you go,

"that's how it comes across to everyone in this thread that isn't named HeliumRat, or our very own lovely and talented LauraMohr!"

#567 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 12:08 AM | Reply

WOW You have much to learn. The Civil War isn't as cut and dried like so many make it.

#563 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR AT 2017-08-15 12:05 AM | FLAG:

So? It is cut and dry enough for the purpose of this discussion.

#568 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 12:08 AM | Reply

Well, there is that. Many who didn't own slaves aspired to owning them. Just because someone wasn't financially able to own slaves didn't mean they opposed the institution.

#565 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY AT 2017-08-15 12:07 AM | FLAG:

And of course they supported the institution in other ways.

#569 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 12:09 AM | Reply

"I have a couple of friends who are racists and they don't fly that flag."
Nazi flag then?
And you maintain friendships with these people?
I'm curious as to how you don't find racism simply intolerable.

It only came up one time, and that was long after I had been friends with them (these 2 are from different spheres of my life and they don't know each other). I made the decision that it was a character flaw I could overlook since they pretty much kept their thoughts to themselves.

#570 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 12:18 AM | Reply

The Civil War isn't as cut and dried like so many make it.

#563 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR AT 2017-08-15 12:05 AM | FLAG:

Go ask the good ol boys carrying the Swastikas for a lesson in future. They'll explain with their steel toe boots what the statue means.

#571 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-08-15 12:19 AM | Reply

Go troll somewhere else, Snoofy - Dirk is trying to tell us about Stalinism.

#572 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 12:21 AM | Reply

It only came up one time, and that was long after I had been friends with them (these 2 are from different spheres of my life and they don't know each other). I made the decision that it was a character flaw I could overlook since they pretty much kept their thoughts to themselves.
#570 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 12:18 AM | FLAG:

As in your conduct here, you have a gift for making excuses (speaking of character flaws).

#573 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 12:22 AM | Reply

Go troll somewhere else, Snoofy - Dirk is trying to tell us about Stalinism.

#572 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 12:21 AM | FLAG:

Stalinism here having the meaning of critical theory? I know you can't tell the difference, you barely literate dolt.

#574 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 12:24 AM | Reply

Go ask the good ol boys carrying the Swastikas for a lesson in future. They'll explain with their steel toe boots what the statue means.

#571 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER AT 2017-08-15 12:19 AM | FLAG:

They don't care. It is BLM conservatives on this forum are afraid of...

#575 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 12:26 AM | Reply

Well Laura I'll give you your Southern pride.

As I mentioned earlier, I love Randy Newman. I saw an interview with him the other day and he talked about the Northeners thinking they are superior to the Southerners in morality and thinking.

My words now. I think in truth the North was thinking" hey we freed you but don't here " Could be wrong but most of the folks up north were broke too and needed the jobs.

As if the bloody Irish weren't enough(sarc)

#576 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 12:42 AM | Reply

#574 Well, what does Critical Theory mean then? I'm all ears, Dirk.

#577 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 12:48 AM | Reply

Recently was finally able to watch 12 Years a Slave.

Heart breaking. When they came a took that plantation owners property I wept.

#578 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 12:49 AM | Reply

So here's an article called Modern Display of the Confederate Flag
en.wikipedia.org

And here's the part that you need to take to heart, JeffJ:

Despite the common belief that "the Confederate flag" has remained in uninterrupted use since the end of the Civil War, its use was mostly limited to historical movies, like Gone with the Wind. Its revival in the 1950s and 1960s was to show opposition to the Civil Rights Movement, starting with Senator Strom Thurman's Dixiecrats in 1948. Racism played a major role in its new popularity.

#579 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 12:50 AM | Reply

#574 Well, what does Critical Theory mean then? I'm all ears, Dirk.

#577 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 12:48 AM | FLAG:

The critique of society by way of the critical tools afforded by the humanities and social sciences. Note the conspicuous absence of any reference to Stalin.

#580 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 12:53 AM | Reply

"Note the conspicuous absence of any reference to Stalin."

Yes. That was very clever of them.

#581 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:01 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#579 as if any real student of history would support the hate that flag flies over. It's great to see you correcting the gaps in historical knowledge.

#582 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-08-15 01:04 AM | Reply

Yes. That was very clever of them.

#581 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 01:01 AM | FLAG:

And there you go with the conspiracy theories again, crackpot.

#583 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 01:05 AM | Reply

#583 Nobody will ever accuse you of cognitive privilege.

#584 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:13 AM | Reply

#583 Nobody will ever accuse you of cognitive privilege.

#584 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 01:13 AM | FLAG:

Says the guy whose knowledge of theory comes from paranoid rightist blogs.

#585 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 01:16 AM | Reply

#585 Says the racist that just called me "Gomer" on another thread. How about I call you "Boy"?

#586 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:18 AM | Reply

#585 Says the racist that just called me "Gomer" on another thread. How about I call you "Boy"?

#586 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 01:18 AM | FLAG:

Well that would ACTUALLY be racist, you drooling incoherent. So, you know, slight difference.

#587 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 01:20 AM | Reply

So was "Gomer", you drooling incoherent.

#588 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:21 AM | Reply

So was "Gomer", you drooling incoherent.

#588 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 01:21 AM | FLAG:

In the fantasy land in which you live.

#589 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 01:26 AM | Reply

Shut up, you alt-left racist.

#590 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:28 AM | Reply

Besides, don't you have a genocide to apologize for? The Holodomor? Tell me about that again.

#591 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:32 AM | Reply

Dirk and Helium ,go to bed.

#592 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 01:38 AM | Reply

Besides, don't you have a genocide to apologize for? The Holodomor? Tell me about that again.

#591 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 01:32 AM | FLAG:

Such invincible ignorance: can't tell Critical Theory from Stalinism and can't tell some badly needed context from an apology. How do you walk around and function day to day without wandering into traffic? Just asking out of academic curiosity...

#593 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 01:39 AM | Reply

Dirk and Helium ,go to bed. I mean sleep

#594 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 01:40 AM | Reply

#579 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Interesting. Thank you for sharing.

#595 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 01:41 AM | Reply

#593 I'm not the one who embraced communism. How the hell did you come to the conclusion that Marx was right? Have you ever even read The Communist Manifesto? I have. And it's the dumbest book ever written. It even beats Mien Kampf.

#596 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:46 AM | Reply

#594 Naw, I can stay up until about 2 am. I'm telling you, I would pay money to argue with a communist, but I can get it here for free!

#597 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:47 AM | Reply

#594 Naw, I can stay up until about 2 am. I'm telling you, I would pay money to argue with a communist, but I can get it here for free!

#597 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 01:47 AM | FLAG:

You couldn't construct a rational argument to save your life. You are the sort of paint huffing Paleocon who thinks shouting "communist!" wins the debate...

#598 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 01:50 AM | Reply

Since when did communism ever win at anything? Well, besides killing 100 million innocent people, that is....

#599 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:52 AM | Reply

"Have you ever even read The Communist Manifesto? I have."

No chance you understood it. Did no one ever to help you with the big words?

"And it's the dumbest book ever written."

Nice critique there, Socrates. You think of it yourself?

" It even beats Mien Kampf"

Now that one I believe you've read...

#600 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 01:52 AM | Reply

#597 well you should at least support the advertisors, buy some socks or something.

#601 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 01:53 AM | Reply

Since when did communism ever win at anything? Well, besides killing 100 million innocent people, that is....

#599 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 01:52 AM | FLAG:

Besides the space race, World War II and industrialization?

And how many people did capitalist imperialism kill? How many is it still killing? And why was really existing communism as bloody as it was? You don't have answers, of course.

#602 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 01:55 AM | Reply

Well, according to communists, capitalism has killed 1.6 billion people. Do you believe that?

#603 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:57 AM | Reply

I have a copy of the Communist Manifesto and have read it cover to cover.

I'm told that if you want a good understanding of Marx, Das Kapital is a far better read. I haven't read that one, at least not yet.

#604 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 01:57 AM | Reply

How many of those millions where send to labor camps for thought crimes? The numbers must be staggering.

#605 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 01:58 AM | Reply

Communism is a human tragedy. It's a cancerous stain on mankind and it belongs only in the dustbin of history as a reminder of what happens when humans are forced into slavery.

#606 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 01:59 AM | Reply

Well, according to communists, capitalism has killed 1.6 billion people. Do you believe that?

#603 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 01:57 AM | FLAG:

There is no good way to count: which is a part of the true terror of capitalism.

#607 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:02 AM | Reply

How many of those millions where send to labor camps for thought crimes? The numbers must be staggering.

#605 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 01:58 AM | FLAG:

Very many. Read Foucault.

#608 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:03 AM | Reply

Communism is a human tragedy. It's a cancerous stain on mankind and it belongs only in the dustbin of history as a reminder of what happens when humans are forced into slavery.

#606 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 01:59 AM | FLAG:

Substanceless drivel. What college republican pamphlet did you fish that out of?

#609 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:04 AM | Reply

What are you talking about? You need to explain yourself.

#610 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:04 AM | Reply

What are you talking about? You need to explain yourself.

#610 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 02:04 AM | FLAG:

I wouldn't, if you'd read any theory! What passes for a political education where you are from?

#611 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:05 AM | Reply

Well commusism replaced serfdom which was pretty ------ in that country. Serfs were more valuable than the land. Stalin was a sadist period.

#612 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 02:07 AM | Reply

I have a copy of the Communist Manifesto and have read it cover to cover.
I'm told that if you want a good understanding of Marx, Das Kapital is a far better read. I haven't read that one, at least not yet.

#604 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 01:57 AM | FLAG:

Why even bother? You clearly have your mind made up about it all and have settled on your Walmart brand approximation of capitalist "democracy" and called it a day. Have you ever even taken a course in theory or did you just thumb through the manifesto to frighten yourself on a slow day at the garage?

#613 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:08 AM | Reply

The only Foucault I ever read was his fiction books. I looked him up on the internet under "Foucault communism", but he doesn't sound particularly enlightening. What are your favorite quotes from him?

#614 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:09 AM | Reply

Stalin was a sadist period.

#612 | POSTED BY BRUCEAZ AT 2017-08-15 02:07 AM | FLAG:

Why must everyone pathologize?

#615 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:09 AM | Reply

#511 So you are a foreigner from the East block! Because that is not what passes for political education in the US.

#616 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:11 AM | Reply

615 okay he was misunderstood, better?

#617 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 02:12 AM | Reply

You're welcome JeffJ.

If you didn't know that, you should know.
It sort of casts the whole issue into stark relief.
It's also illustrative of why I suspect I think America is more racist than you think America is.
Because I know some things. ;)

Really, it's no different than knowing that fortune cookies aren't really Chinese, but rather invented by a Chinese person living in America.

And the modern display of the Confederate Flag isn't really keeping alive a tradition, it's a revivalist movement spawned by racists against what was seen as a further Federal intrusion into a States Way of Life, that being Segregation.

And frankly I suspect you would have seen it that way at the time, seeing as you make that very argument against gay marriage.

I'd wager you not knowing this aspect of the Confederate flag's history is a result of the political counsel you seek, who haven't told you the truth because you're they're useful idiot when you talk about "Tradition" and "Heritage." Truth is, they manufactured those things for you to latch onto, emotionally. Laura bit harder than you, maybe.

Amazingly, if you go and put statues of Civil War leaders all over the South, some people form the belief that there was something to look up to among these men. Of course, you teach it in the schools too. You just make it part of the normal way of life.

#618 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:14 AM | Reply

"belongs only in the dustbin of history as a reminder of what happens when humans are forced into slavery."

Did Capitalism force anyone into slavery, maybe somewhere in America, briefly???

#619 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:17 AM | Reply

The only Foucault I ever read was his fiction books. I looked him up on the internet under "Foucault communism", but he doesn't sound particularly enlightening. What are your favorite quotes from him?

#614 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 02:09 AM | FLAG:

Fiction? I am referring to Michel Foucault. He wrote on many topics, although the work I was referring (obliquely) was "Discipline and Punish" (sort of a genealogical account of prisons and the like). He wrote a lot on asylums too. Very briefly, he writes about the social function of constructed notions of deviance and their regulation by institutions (something very much at issue in capitalism as well).

My favorite quotes from him, alas, are not on this topic per se:

"Where there is power, there is resistance, but, or rather also, resistance never occupies a position of exteriority in relation to power."

"Do not ask me who I am and do not ask me to remain the same. Leave it to our bureaucrats and our police to see that our papers are in order."

#620 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:18 AM | Reply

"Amazingly, if you go and put statues of Civil War leaders all over the South, some people form the belief that there was something to look up to among these men."

They where drafted into war and gave their lives for their cause. They deserve memorials.

#621 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:18 AM | Reply

#511 So you are a foreigner from the East block! Because that is not what passes for political education in the US.

#616 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 02:11 AM | FLAG:

What? Why not?

#622 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:19 AM | Reply

"Do not ask me who I am and do not ask me to remain the same. Leave it to our bureaucrats and our police to see that our papers are in order."

Now that's quotable.

When I die, be a bro and delete my browser history, alright?

#623 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:20 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

615 okay he was misunderstood, better?

#617 | POSTED BY BRUCEAZ AT 2017-08-15 02:12 AM | FLAG:

What is with Americans? They make everything personal!

It is not about Stalin, whether he was mad or sane, kind or cruel. It is about the system, about ideas, about circumstances material and otherwise.

#624 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:21 AM | Reply

Actually from my understanding the fortune cookie was American Japanese, but after they were all rounded up the market was open.

Could be wrong but I do know that good things will happen to me soon.

#625 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 02:21 AM | Reply

#622 I've taken a politics class in college, the professor was from South America. But it was nothing like you think.

#626 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:22 AM | Reply

I'd wager you not knowing this aspect of the Confederate flag's history is a result of the political counsel you seek, who haven't told you the truth because you're they're useful idiot when you talk about "Tradition" and "Heritage." Truth is, they manufactured those things for you to latch onto, emotionally. Laura bit harder than you, maybe.

It's not that. I live in Michigan and almost never see a Confederate flag. I don't see it, nor have I been a participant in any discussions about it (outside of the college example I gave) until very recently on this site. It's just never been on my radar.

There are surely things specific to Michigan, perhaps even somewhat controversial things, that you are unaware of because it's simply not within your zone.

#627 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:23 AM | Reply

Now that's quotable.
When I die, be a bro and delete my browser history, alright?

#623 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 02:20 AM | FLAG:

Funny you should say that. Foucault felt that an effort to synthesize the entirety of a thinker's work (inclusive of everything ever scribbled on a cocktail napkin) into a coherent oeuvre was artificial at best and misleading at worst (the Author is dead, and the work contains a life of its own). So, when he died, he had a large body of his unpublished papers locked up with limited access, preventing the publication of a "collected works" and the inevitably resulting exegeses.

#628 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:26 AM | Reply

#622 I've taken a politics class in college, the professor was from South America. But it was nothing like you think.

#626 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 02:22 AM | FLAG:

Applied or theory?

#629 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:26 AM | Reply

Did Capitalism force anyone into slavery, maybe somewhere in America, briefly???

#619 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I am not sure that is tied to Capitalism.

Compare East Germany vs West Germany prior to the collapse of the wall. In Berlin, were people in West Berlin trying to get themselves into East Berlin so they could live in a worker's paradise?

Compare/contrast N. Korea and S. Korea. Look at what is happening in Venezuela.

Communism has been implemented time and time again and it has always resulted in massive human suffering and murder.

#630 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:26 AM | Reply

"They where drafted into war and gave their lives for their cause. They deserve memorials."

Never said they didn't.

There should not be statues of specific Civil War generals, Confederate statesmen, etc. for their part in the Great Rebellion.

Any more than there should be a statue of Mohammad Atta at Ground Zero.

#631 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:27 AM | Reply

#628 So... no Foucault porn exists? I am very, very disappointed.

#632 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:28 AM | Reply

They where drafted into war and gave their lives for their cause. They deserve memorials.

#621 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 02:18 AM | FLAG:

If so, make it like memorials of travesties (as in "let us not forget how these men were conscripted to die for a slave state").

#633 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:29 AM | Reply

Communism is a human tragedy. It's a cancerous stain on mankind and it belongs only in the dustbin of history as a reminder of what happens when humans are forced into slavery.
#606 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 01:59 AM | FLAG:
Substanceless drivel. What college republican pamphlet did you fish that out of?

#609 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

In every country where Communism has been implemented, its citizens are prohibited from fleeing the country. Heck, Cubans have been known to affix pontoons to 50 year old cars and risk their lives trying to reach American soil.

#634 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:30 AM | Reply

"I am not sure that is tied to Capitalism."

What else would it be tied to? The complex of capitalism and imperialism has much to answer for.

"Compare East Germany vs West Germany prior to the collapse of the wall. In Berlin, were people in West Berlin trying to get themselves into East Berlin so they could live in a worker's paradise?
Compare/contrast N. Korea and S. Korea. Look at what is happening in Venezuela.
Communism has been implemented time and time again and it has always resulted in massive human suffering and murder."

Capitalism does plenty to contribute to human suffering as well, of course. But ask yourself, why do you suppose most communist states became totalitarian?

#635 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:32 AM | Reply

#624 wow that explains everything/nothing.

#636 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 02:33 AM | Reply

In every country where Communism has been implemented, its citizens are prohibited from fleeing the country.

#634 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 02:30 AM | FLAG:

1) citation needed.

2) so what?

#637 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:33 AM | Reply

why do you suppose all communist states became totalitarian?

#635 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN (correction is mine)

Because Totalitarianism is inherent in any system where the state controls all means of production.

#638 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:34 AM | Reply

#624 wow that explains everything/nothing.

#636 | POSTED BY BRUCEAZ AT 2017-08-15 02:33 AM | FLAG:

Too complex for you? You'd prefer to just blame Stalin's mental state and call it a day?

#639 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:35 AM | Reply

#633 Cool. So we can a two mile tall one for China!

#640 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:35 AM | Reply

Because Totalitarianism is inherent in any system where the state controls all means of production.

#638 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 02:34 AM | FLAG:

Is there an argument in there somewhere? Because all I see is an assertion.

#641 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:37 AM | Reply

*build a two a mile tall memorial

#642 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:37 AM | Reply

2) so what?

#637 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

So what? If it's such a great system, why would people want to flee it and why would the state prevent them from doing so?

Capitalism is far and away the best economic system yet devised in terms of alleviating human suffering. It has elevated standards of living that are unprecedented in human history.

#643 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:37 AM | Reply

Dirk, we all want to know: what country are you broadcasting from?

#644 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:38 AM | Reply

"I am not sure that is tied to Capitalism."

Slavery was intricately tied to the success of the antebellum American economy.

Slavery existed contemporaneously with capitalism, where slavery was allowed, from the dawn of capitalism until slavery went out of favor.

Slavery was mostly gone by the time Communism rolled onto the scene.

"Communism has been implemented time and time again and it has always resulted in massive human suffering and murder."

There's plenty of massive human suffering and murder in capitalist countries. Rwandan genocide for example, can't really blame that one on your hated Communists.

And, probably because it doesn't work so well, it actually hasn't even been implemented that many times. www.infoplease.com

But wait! If you look at how Poland fared, they suffered a whole lot more harm under the Nazis in just five years, compared to 40 years under the Communists who replaced them.

#645 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:38 AM | Reply

"Capitalism is far and away the best economic system yet devised in terms of alleviating human suffering."

That's not even a goal of the system; you're talking crazy talk.

#646 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:39 AM | Reply

Because Totalitarianism is inherent in any system where the state controls all means of production.
#638 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 02:34 AM | FLAG:
Is there an argument in there somewhere? Because all I see is an assertion.

#641 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

You asked why Communist states become authoritarian and I answered - it's a feature of Communism. People in Communist states are completely subservient to the government. All Communist states are totalitarian by design.

#647 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:39 AM | Reply

"So what? If it's such a great system, why would people want to flee it and why would the state prevent them from doing so?"

People flee states for all sorts of reasons. And states have an interest in them not doing so for many more.

"Capitalism is far and away the best economic system yet devised in terms of alleviating human suffering."

Based on what?

"It has elevated standards of living that are unprecedented in human history."

Has it though?

#648 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:40 AM | Reply

"Capitalism is far and away the best economic system yet devised in terms of alleviating human suffering."
That's not even a goal of the system; you're talking crazy talk.

#646 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2017-08-15 02:39 AM

It's a byproduct of the system.

#649 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:41 AM | Reply

#646 Yes Snoofy, school us on capitalism, oh Master.

#650 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:41 AM | Reply

You asked why Communist states become authoritarian and I answered - it's a feature of Communism. People in Communist states are completely subservient to the government. All Communist states are totalitarian by design.

#647 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 02:39 AM | FLAG:

Relative to what? Coercion exists in capitalist societies as well. Worse coercion even: it is coercion you cannot see, the "natural" coercion of the market.

#651 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:41 AM | Reply

"So what? If it's such a great system, why would people want to flee it and why would the state prevent them from doing so?"

I think the answer to both questions is the same: Because communism isn't big on freedom.

#652 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:41 AM | Reply

"It's a byproduct of the system."

No it's not, it's the product of a completely separate system called public health, which operates across your stupid arbitrary political and economic lines, notably because disease does too.

You have like one tool in your shed, and it's getting dull.

#653 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:42 AM | Reply

Dirk, we all want to know: what country are you broadcasting from?

#644 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 02:38 AM | FLAG:

Second star to the right, and straight on till morning.

#654 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:43 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"So what? If it's such a great system, why would people want to flee it and why would the state prevent them from doing so?"
----
People flee states for all sorts of reasons. And states have an interest in them not doing so for many more.

Capitalist countries don't hold their citizens hostage. In the United States, people are free to renounce their citizenship and move to another country. Not so, in Communist countries.

"Capitalism is far and away the best economic system yet devised in terms of alleviating human suffering."
-----
Based on what?

Standard of living across all segments of capitalist societies.

"It has elevated standards of living that are unprecedented in human history."
-----
Has it though?

Yes, it has.

#655 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:44 AM | Reply

No it's not, it's the product of a completely separate system called public health, which operates across your stupid arbitrary political and economic lines, notably because disease does too.

The lines between capitalism and communism aren't arbitrary. They are real, tangible and identifiable.

#656 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:46 AM | Reply

#655 JeffJ

I told you this was worth paying for.

#657 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:46 AM | Reply

It's a byproduct of the system.

#649 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 02:41 AM | FLAG:

Byproduct, huh? How about pollution, resource consumption (into death), labor exploitation? Are those glitches, or features?

#658 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:46 AM | Reply

Relative to what? Coercion exists in capitalist societies as well. Worse coercion even: it is coercion you cannot see, the "natural" coercion of the market.

#651 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

What kind of equivalence is that? Capitalist countries have a degree of freedom and liberty that people in Communist countries can only dream of.

#659 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:48 AM | Reply

JeffJ, Go ask your nurse wife is she's a capitalist or a health care practitioner.

Her answer might surprise you!

#660 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:48 AM | Reply

"Capitalist countries don't hold their citizens hostage. In the United States, people are free to renounce their citizenship and move to another country. Not so, in Communist countries."

Prove it. And why again does this matter?

"Standard of living across all segments of capitalist societies."

What about them? That doesn't prove your claim....

"Yes, it has."

Prove it.

#661 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:49 AM | Reply

#658 You mean communism never did all of those things? I'm shocked! Shocked! Sign me up, comrade!

#662 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:49 AM | Reply

#639 yeah, Maybe Trotsky would have been better, but he had a bad day, maybe if he didn't kill his generals the war might have gone better.

You seem to be making a case for kim jun un. But that is your right.

Capitalism and socialism are economic systems. Dictatorships and democracy are political systems. Big difference.

450 billion dollar oil find, wouldn't pay for our military for a year.
Healthcare, can't afford it.

#663 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 02:50 AM | Reply

What kind of equivalence is that? Capitalist countries have a degree of freedom and liberty that people in Communist countries can only dream of.

#659 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 02:48 AM | FLAG:

They really don't. They just have a different, indeed, worse form of coercion.

#664 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:50 AM | Reply

#658 You mean communism never did all of those things? I'm shocked! Shocked! Sign me up, comrade!

#662 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 02:49 AM | FLAG:

Correct. Alas, you don't have the option anymore. Capitalism doesn't like competition (unless it is within itself).

#665 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:51 AM | Reply

Byproduct, huh? How about pollution,

Capitalist countries are the cleanest countries in the world.

resource consumption (into death),

Capitalist countries consume resources more efficiently than Communist countries.

labor exploitation?

When it was at its worst, unions formed and were very effective at protecting workers from exploitation. Over times, laws were passed giving workers even stronger protections. These laws have enjoyed such great success that union membership has plummeted as a result - the value that unions provide is greatly diminished in the face of these laws.

#666 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:52 AM | Reply

#664 Ah. Now your talking about the 24/7/365 Matrix. That I can agree with. When 6 oligarchs got control of 90% of the media, tilting every argument towards the rich was the inevitable outcome.

#667 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:53 AM | Reply

Prove it.

#661 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

I could prove it ten times over. You'd still proclaim, "Nuh uh!"

#668 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:53 AM | Reply

"Byproduct, huh? How about pollution, resource consumption (into death), labor exploitation? Are those glitches, or features?"

The good things are by-products, the bad things are externalities and unfortunate "you have to take the good with the bad" platitudes about the realities of life.

Suffice it to say, the costs of things like global warming itself are never priced in, only the price of doing anything to try and stop warming the globe so much get added up.

His analysis of the issue is predicated from a world where the cost of a CO2 emission = $0.00 per unit. It's like he can't tell accounting from reality.

#669 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:55 AM | Reply

"Capitalist countries are the cleanest countries in the world."

They produce more pollution than communist states. Far more, taken as a whole. There is not even a contest.

"Capitalist countries consume resources more efficiently than Communist countries."

Market efficiency is not the same as real efficiency. Capitalism thrives on a cupmsumer culture with waste built into it, waste your self serving metric doesn't see. So, you drown in disposable crap and suck down energy like rum while the planet dies by inches. Not a communist problem.

#670 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:56 AM | Reply

I could prove it ten times over.
#668 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 02:53 AM | FLAG:

Once will be fine.

#671 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:56 AM | Reply

What kind of equivalence is that? Capitalist countries have a degree of freedom and liberty that people in Communist countries can only dream of.
#659 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 02:48 AM | FLAG:
They really don't. They just have a different, indeed, worse form of coercion.

#664 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

A worse form of coercion?

Yeah, that's why the US has such a problem with people trying to gain entry into this country illegally - they want to enjoy a worse form of coercion. You act like the West Germans looked at their counterparts on the other side of the fence and said, "I want that. I need to get away from all of this hidden coercion. That state-imposed coercion looks so much more appealing" Undoubtedly, that is what South Koreans are saying too.

#672 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:57 AM | Reply

"Capitalist countries are the cleanest countries in the world."

Because their amazing wealth has allowed them to externalize low-tech high-polluting industry to the developing world?

And it has also allowed them to impose stringent environmental standards for high-tech manufacturing far exceeding the standards of the rest of the world?

Also, I bet you that North Korea has far cleaner streets than your hometown.

#673 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:57 AM | Reply

#670 Wrong. America uses 20% of the worlds energy, but produces only 5% of it's pollution. Compare us to China. Or even India.

#674 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 02:58 AM | Reply

When it was at its worst, unions formed and were very effective at protecting workers from exploitation. Over times, laws were passed giving workers even stronger protections. These laws have enjoyed such great success that union membership has plummeted as a result - the value that unions provide is greatly diminished in the face of these laws.

#666 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 02:52 AM | FLAG:

You cannot be so deluded as to think labor exploitation still isn't a major problem.

#675 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:58 AM | Reply

#645 Snoofy remember they were in cahoots and partitioned Poland. And there is a memorial in the Katyn Forest and it wasn't the Nazis.

#676 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 02:58 AM | Reply

#670 Wrong. America uses 20% of the worlds energy, but produces only 5% of it's pollution. Compare us to China. Or even India.

#674 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 02:58 AM | FLAG:

...all three countries are capitalist. Which makes me right (as usual).

#677 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 02:59 AM | Reply

"Capitalist countries consume resources more efficiently than Communist countries."

I don't even know how this is supposed to be a thing in the plus column.
Don't capitalist countries also consume far more resources than communist countries?
Is that a bad thing? Isn't the thing the rate of depletion, not the efficiency?

Oh, wait, are resources infinite, along with the price of CO2 emissions is zero, is that another assumption you're working off of?

#678 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 02:59 AM | Reply

"The lines between capitalism and communism aren't arbitrary. They are real, tangible and identifiable."

Not to bird flu.
Not to fallout from Communist Chernobyl or Capitalist Fukushima.

#679 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 03:01 AM | Reply

Capitalist countries are the cleanest countries in the world.

WRONG We have too many superfund sites that prove that's a lie

resource consumption (into death),

Capitalist countries consume resources more efficiently than Communist countries.

>Again no they don't hence the need for the EPA

labor exploitation?

When it was at its worst, unions formed and were very effective at protecting workers from exploitation. Over times, laws were passed giving workers even stronger protections. These laws have enjoyed such great success that union membership has plummeted as a result - the value that unions provide is greatly diminished in the face of these laws.

No they aren't hence so many right to work states. Hence the greater need for Unions

Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 02:52 AM | Reply

#680 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-08-15 03:01 AM | Reply

Once will be fine.

#671 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

N. Korea and S. Korea. When their war started, both were in the same place in terms of standard of living, economic production, etc. When the war ended, the 2 countries went on 2 different paths - Communism for the North and Capitalism for the South. Compare/contrast how those 2 countries fared under those 2 systems.

Capitalism and socialism are economic systems. Dictatorships and democracy are political systems. Big difference.

Ever notice how Democracies and capitalism are intertwined and dictatorships and communism are intertwined?

#681 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 03:02 AM | Reply

I think the only true communist country left is North Korea, and it is a communist monarchy. Maybe that's where dirk got his "political education".

#682 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:03 AM | Reply

A worse form of coercion?
Yeah, that's why the US has such a problem with people trying to gain entry into this country illegally - they want to enjoy a worse form of coercion. You act like the West Germans looked at their counterparts on the other side of the fence and said, "I want that. I need to get away from all of this hidden coercion. That state-imposed coercion looks so much more appealing" Undoubtedly, that is what South Koreans are saying too.

#672 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-08-15 02:57 AM | FLAG:

Migration is a product of the coercion: war, wealth inequality, disease, pollution, exploitation, all of it can be laid at the doorstep of your capitalist system. They move because the market forces them to with a brutal efficiency no dictatorship could ever match. Millions more slave away, die in poverty and disease, casualties of the market. And unlike the dictator, you cannot see the murders being done, the relocations and exiles. So you cannot fight back, you cannot run away.

#683 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:04 AM | Reply

JeffJ doesn't Capitalism kind of owe America twenty trillion dollars?

You ever think that's where some of this nice stuff you're talking about came from?

You got a plan to pay for that? No, you can't even figure out how to make SSI solvent.

#684 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 03:04 AM | Reply

"N. Korea and S. Korea. When their war started, both were in the same place in terms of standard of living, economic production, etc. When the war ended, the 2 countries went on 2 different paths - Communism for the North and Capitalism for the South. Compare/contrast how those 2 countries fared under those 2 systems."

Not a fair comparison. Try again?

#685 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:05 AM | Reply

Capitalist countries are the cleanest countries in the world.
WRONG We have too many superfund sites that prove that's a lie

Please show which Communist counties that are cleaner than capitalist countries.

>Again no they don't hence the need for the EPA

The EPA came about because as people became wealthy, they began to care more and more about the environment and demanded that it be better taken care of. People struggling to find their next meal aren't terribly concerned that smokestacks are belching soot into the air.

#686 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 03:05 AM | Reply

#681 well South Korea may be a democracy now it was a military dictatorship for a long time.

#687 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 03:07 AM | Reply

"Please show which Communist counties that are cleaner than capitalist countries."

Cuba polluted much less than the US.

#688 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:07 AM | Reply

JeffJ, your hogging all the good Dirkstruan.

Get away from him, I saw him first. And I pay good money for this internet connection, dammit!

#689 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:07 AM | Reply

Okay Dirk, what is a fair comparison between communism and democracy?

#690 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:08 AM | Reply

"The EPA came about because as people became wealthy, they began to care more and more about the environment and demanded that it be better taken care of."

Okay, but that's the opposite of capitalism. Capitalism would be when people demanded that the environment be better exploited for profit.

#691 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-08-15 03:09 AM | Reply

Get away from him, I saw him first. And I pay good money for this internet connection, dammit!

#689 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 03:07 AM | FLAG:

Money that could be spent on more moonshine, right Gomer?

#692 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:09 AM | Reply

South Vietnam that we fought so valiantly for wasn't a democracy either.

#693 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 03:10 AM | Reply

#688 "Cuba polluted much less than the US. "

Yep. Because it's people lived in poverty. No money for energy.

#694 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:10 AM | Reply

Okay Dirk, what is a fair comparison between communism and democracy?

#690 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 03:08 AM | FLAG:

You are smarter than you look, Ike. There isn't one! Communism came into the world surrounded by older, richer, more established and decidedly hostile capitalist powers. The scandal isn't that it failed, it is that it succeeded to the extent that it did. The scandal is not that it was brutal, but that it was as enlightened as it managed to be.

#695 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:12 AM | Reply

#692 Shut up, racist. Next you'll call me a "cracker".

#696 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:12 AM | Reply

Yep. Because it's people lived in poverty. No money for energy.

#694 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 03:10 AM | FLAG:

Ask a question, get an answer.

#697 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:13 AM | Reply

#692 Shut up, racist. Next you'll call me a "cracker".

#696 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 03:12 AM | FLAG:

Going to challenge me to dueling banjos?

#698 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:14 AM | Reply

#695 I saw high-ranking communist administrators after the Cold War talking about what went wrong with communism. They said it killed personal initiative.

Do you agree with that assessment?

#699 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:14 AM | Reply

The EPA came about because as people became wealthy, they began to care more and more about the environment and demanded that it be better taken care of. People struggling to find their next meal aren't terribly concerned that smokestacks are belching soot into the air.

#686 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 03:05 AM | Reply | Flag:

No you dumb ass the EPA was created to clean up from capitalistic ventures not because people with wealth cared more.

time.com

Dirty water was only one ingredient. At the close of the 1960s, the United States could not escape the fact of, as TIME put it in 1968, "the relentless degradations of a once virgin continent." The evidence was right in front of citizens' faces. Pollution had gotten bad enough to be undeniable, and science had become advanced enough to make the reasons why clear. In 1963, smog had killed 400 New Yorkers, and Lake Erie's oxygen content had become so depleted that the center of the lake sustained precious little life. An oil spill off the California coast in 1969 coated 400 square miles with slime and killed hundreds of birds. Scientists announced that auto exhaust was at high enough levels in some places that it could cause birth defects. The city of St. Louis smelled, as one resident put it, "like an old-fashioned drugstore on fire."

The science of ecology -- which still had to be defined for TIME's readers -- was expanding and attracting new thinkers, who showed that the U.S. bore more than its fair share of the environmental degradation that had swept the world in the previous decades. (The country had 5.7% of global population in 1970, by TIME's count back then, but consumed 40% of the natural resources.) The reasons for such heavy consumption went beyond mere economic ability to consume, some theorized. The U.S. had been built, after all, on the idea that it was a vast land there for the taking. Those national myths began to fall apart on a broad scale in the 1960s and '70s, as the American Indian Movement and the environmental movement, respectively,

#700 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-08-15 03:14 AM | Reply

"N. Korea and S. Korea. When their war started, both were in the same place in terms of standard of living, economic production, etc. When the war ended, the 2 countries went on 2 different paths - Communism for the North and Capitalism for the South. Compare/contrast how those 2 countries fared under those 2 systems."
Not a fair comparison. Try again?

#685 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

It couldn't be more fair. One country, divided into 2. Both start at the same point and adopt 2 completely different systems. The results are very measurable.

Migration is a product of the coercion:

#683 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Migration is a product of choice. People are free to leave this country. They choose not to. We have people from all over the world trying to get into this country. I guess it's because they are looking for more coercion. People all over the world are attempting to flee Communist countries and the state won't allow them to.

It's funny that you have spent the day engaging in an activity that wouldn't even be possible in the absence of Capitalism - blogging; the internet.

I don't know what country you live it, but I'd be willing to bet there is not a Communist country in existence today, or that has existed in the past (if you had a time machine), that you would personally volunteer to live in if it meant you had to leave this country and could never come back.

#701 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-08-15 03:15 AM | Reply

#695, holy ---- well I guess that settles that. Goodnight.

#702 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 03:16 AM | Reply

#695 I saw high-ranking communist administrators after the Cold War talking about what went wrong with communism. They said it killed personal initiative.
Do you agree with that assessment?

#699 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 03:14 AM | FLAG:
No.

#703 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:16 AM | Reply

#698 I would so kick your ass at dueling banjos. But I suspect you would prefer chess and vodka?

#704 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:16 AM | Reply

Okay, then why communism fail in the Soviet Union? The whole Soviet empire collapsed!

#705 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:17 AM | Reply

"Migration is a product of choice."

Sure. Migrate or die. Conform or die. Do what the market tells you or die die die. The perennial "choice" of capitalism.

"It's funny that you have spent the day engaging in an activity that wouldn't even be possible in the absence of Capitalism - blogging; the internet."

Who says that it would only be possible under capitalism? Who says it is desirable that it be permitted, for that matter?

#706 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:19 AM | Reply

And why can't you give up on your political education, and embrace your new future outside of the communist matrix? You are, after all, free now.

#707 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:20 AM | Reply

"It couldn't be more fair. One country, divided into 2. Both start at the same point and adopt 2 completely different systems. The results are very measurable."

Sorry, not good enough. One country had plenty of nice, wealthy friends to prop it up. Equal? Hardly.

#708 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:21 AM | Reply

Okay, then why communism fail in the Soviet Union? The whole Soviet empire collapsed!

#705 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 03:17 AM | FLAG:

It never had a chance. And not because of some magical and mysterious fatal flaw in communism. The game was rigged from the start.

#709 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:22 AM | Reply

#698 I would so kick your ass at dueling banjos. But I suspect you would prefer chess and vodka?

#704 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 03:16 AM | FLAG:

How did you guess?

How about rum and fencing? A compromise?

#710 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:23 AM | Reply

Ah, you mean North Korea and it's Russian and Chinese friends. Because we never gave a dime to South Korea for nation building. We made them do it all on their own.

#711 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:23 AM | Reply

#710 I'm pretty good with bayonets and knives (army training). How about a 6" blade and some Pepsi?

#712 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:25 AM | Reply

Ah, you mean North Korea and it's Russian and Chinese friends. Because we never gave a dime to South Korea for nation building. We made them do it all on their own.

#711 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 03:23 AM | FLAG:

Is that even true?

Even if it is, you think being trading partners with Daddy Warbucks and his 20 closest pals wouldn't make a difference?

#713 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:25 AM | Reply

From Wikipedia:

"Under title IV of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1948, South Korea and the Guomindang regime in China were given aid in a similar manner to the Marshall Plan. Japan was also given aid."

#714 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:28 AM | Reply

I can't find a single record of US funds going to South Korea for reconstruction.

#715 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:29 AM | Reply

#710 I'm pretty good with bayonets and knives (army training). How about a 6" blade and some Pepsi?

#712 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 03:25 AM | FLAG:

Bayonet fighting is the long lost cousin to fencing and some day it will get its day in the sun. And what sort of American drinks Pepsi? Shouldn't it be Coca Cola classic, in a glass bottle or something?

#716 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:30 AM | Reply

Did they extend that for after the Korean war?

#717 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:30 AM | Reply

Oh. They did. $150 million dollars. Still looking.

#718 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:31 AM | Reply

Contrary to the assertions of right-wing American jingoists and historical revisionists, it was not "American money" that rebuilt Korea.

www.quora.com

Interesting article.

#719 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:33 AM | Reply

"At a time when South Korea had no economy to speak of, thus no foreign exchange, where did Korea get its first infusion of foreign money? Was it the U.S.? No. The U.S. never implemented a "Marshall Plan" or anything akin to one in Korea and beyond donations of surplus grains and a few, small subsistence loans that did little, the U.S. contributed even less, thus cannot be credited with helping to rebuild the Korean economy."

From the article.

#720 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:34 AM | Reply

#708 wealthy friends, who? The British were still under rationing for years after the war,the Japanese were their former slavers, the US didn't give a ---- til the North invaded. Why did they do that by the way. Spreading freedom?

Also for the fact of the matter, Japan didn't surrender because a couple A couple A bombs, we had fire bombed with as much damage. Stalin was coming.

#721 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 03:36 AM | Reply

Yeah, I know that Japan surrendered due to a combination of factors, including getting a million man army's ass kicked by the Soviets (it had to surrender - a huge shock to Japan).

But if you read Hirohito's surrender speech, he specifically mentions the bomb. Here, I'll post his speech for in a few seconds:

#722 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:41 AM | Reply

"#708 wealthy friends, who? The British were still under rationing for years after the war,the Japanese were their former slavers, the US didn't give a ---- til the North invaded. Why did they do that by the way. Spreading freedom? "

The US and the Western allies, all of whom had an interest in the survival of the South. The US sent funds to help rebuild and as the South Korean economy modernized, they had readymade trade partners. Not so the North.

#723 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:42 AM | Reply

O OUR GOOD AND LOYAL SUBJECTS:

After pondering deeply the general trends of the world and the actual conditions obtaining in our empire today, We have decided to effect a settlement of the present situation by resorting to an extraordinary measure.

We have ordered our government to communicate to the governments of the United States, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union that our empire accepts the provisions of their joint declaration.[6]

To strive for the common prosperity and happiness of all nations as well as the security and well-being of our subjects is the solemn obligation which has been handed down by our imperial ancestors and which lies close to our heart.

Indeed, we declared war on America and Britain out of our sincere desire to ensure Japan's self-preservation and the stabilization of East Asia, it being far from our thought either to infringe upon the sovereignty of other nations or to embark upon territorial aggrandizement.

But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone – the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of our servants of the state, and the devoted service of our one hundred million people – the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.

Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

Such being the case, how are we to save the millions of our subjects, or to atone ourselves before the hallowed spirits of our imperial ancestors? This is the reason why we have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the powers.

We cannot but express the deepest sense of regret to our allied nations of East Asia, who have consistently cooperated with the Empire towards the emancipation of East Asia.

The thought of those officers and men as well as others who have fallen in the fields of battle, those who died at their posts of duty, or those who met with untimely death and all their bereaved families, pains our heart night and day.

The welfare of the wounded and the war-sufferers, and of those who have lost their homes and livelihood, are the objects of our profound solicitude.

The hardships and sufferings to which our nation is to be subjected hereafter will be certainly great. We are keenly aware of the inmost feelings of all of you, our subjects. However, it is according to the dictates of time and fate that We have resolved to pave the way for a grand peace for all the generations to come by enduring the unendurable and suffering what is unsufferable.

Having been able to safeguard and maintain the Kokutai, We are always with you, our good and loyal subjects, relying upon your sincerity and integrity.

Beware most strictly of any outbursts of emotion which may engender needless complications, or any fraternal contention and strife which may create confusion, lead you astray and cause you to lose the confidence of the world.

Let the entire nation continue as one family from generation to generation, ever firm in its faith in the imperishability of its sacred land, and mindful of its heavy burden of responsibility, and of the long road before it.

Unite your total strength, to be devoted to construction for the future. Cultivate the ways of rectitude, foster nobility of spirit, and work with resolution – so that you may enhance the innate glory of the imperial state and keep pace with the progress of the world.

#724 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:44 AM | Reply

#723 --------. Read my article on how South Korea really recovered.

#725 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:47 AM | Reply

Ancient history. Look at who they trade with today. Tens of billions in trade with the US alone.

#726 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 03:49 AM | Reply

Ah, the bounty of successful capitalist enterprise. Sweet, is it not?

#727 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 03:53 AM | Reply

#726 one thing you fail to understand my indoctrinated friend, capatilist will trade with anyone if it is mutually beneficial. Politics be damned.

#728 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 03:54 AM | Reply

#724 nice speech if you're surrendering on the USS Missouri.

#729 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 03:57 AM | Reply

#726 one thing you fail to understand my indoctrinated friend, capatilist will trade with anyone if it is mutually beneficial. Politics be damned.

#728 | POSTED BY BRUCEAZ AT 2017-08-15 03:54 AM | FLAG:

That'll come as great news to Cuba. /snark

Be realistic: it took decades from the revolution for the USSR to establish trade with the West. Even longer for China and Vietnam.

#730 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 04:01 AM | Reply

Ah, the bounty of successful capitalist enterprise. Sweet, is it not?

#727 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2017-08-15 03:53 AM | FLAG:

Like I said, it is nice to have rich friends. NK wasn't so lucky.

#731 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-08-15 04:02 AM | Reply

And... I gotta go to bed. It's way past my bed-time. Bye!

#732 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2017-08-15 04:14 AM | Reply

Well rich friends is cool and all that , but NK could've made a priority of feeding their citizens, to me that is what real communism is
Labour. Taking care off one another but it's --------, at least capitalism is honest, you're on your own mofo. Seriously I'm for a place in the middle but you're full of it. I understand that South Korea has more fertile ground and it was foriegners that picked.the parallel, but feed your people or stfu.

#733 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-08-15 04:19 AM | Reply

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