Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, June 20, 2017

Barry Ritholtz, Bloomberg: When a governor announces an economic theory as a solution to a state's fiscal problems, while challenging all comers to observe the results, that's something I want to pay attention to. And so for the past five years, I have been watching the public-policy experiment in Kansas with great fascination. With the state legislature now rejecting the governor's experiment, we can move onto to the next phase: Not recrimination and blame, though there is lots of that going around. Instead, I want to look at how the experiment played out, and what lessons there are to be learned from it.

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A quick refresher: Kansas's Republican Governor Sam Brownback pushed through a substantial change in the state tax code, centered around lowering rates. He promised it would lead to more growth, tax revenue and jobs. Instead, there have been persistent tax revenue shortfalls, huge spending cuts and disappointing job creation. As my Bloomberg View colleague Justin Fox wrote, Kansas is badly lagging its neighbors, all of which have similar economies. Even worse, people (especially young people) are fleeing the state. Kansas was one of the highest outbound migration states in 2014, 2015 and 2016. The vast majority of people who have moved out were either transferring when their companies left or were seeking employment elsewhere.

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There's a simple explanation for what went wrong. It's called arithmetic.

#1 | Posted by SomebodyElse at 2017-06-19 09:58 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

As does the overtaxation in Illinois. Guess it's best to find a 'happy' medium.

#2 | Posted by MSgt at 2017-06-19 10:17 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

As a former resident of Kansas (Shawnee, a KCMO suburb), I still have clients from Kansas, and have kept close tabs on KS over the years. When the budget came out in 2012, I literally chuckled, because I thought it was a joke. I was waiting for the rest of the equation, since the budget had an annual structural of about $460,000,000.00. Where's the rest of the equation? I wondered. Turned out...there was no "rest of the equation". Brownback actually claimed (I won't say he believed) revenues would increase.

One of the moves was to exempt income tax for business owners, farmers, and landlords. And here's a perfect example of what happened:

I have a handful of clients who live in KCMO, but owned businesses across the state line in KS. One, in particular, would pay her federal taxes, and then pay, say, $2000 to Topeka for her KS income tax. When she went to go to file her home state (MO) taxes, Jefferson City wanted $2050...so they credited her the $2000, and she only had to pay $50 to Jefferson City.

Now, she pays nothing to Topeka, so Jefferson City says...Okay, we'll take that full $2050. Money that would have gone to KS, goes to MO.

Statewide, an economic death spiral began. Brownback took money from roads (over $1 billion), workers' pensions (over $1 billion) , and everything else he could get his hands on. When one dismal report after another came out, he began blaming everyone else...from the number counters, to the judiciary, and even blamed a school district when they finally had to replace ONE piano. After Brownback started taking from babies (literally...he "swept" money away from the Early Childhood Development Fund), and slashed education budgets year after year, even the business owners who were getting the tax breaks said enough is enough. Brownback supporters lost a lot of seats in the 2016 election, and Brownback's scheme backfired when he tried to oust the judges who were forcing him to follow the KS Constitution (read: fund education).

By that point, the writing was on the wall. During a meeting with legislators recently--legislators who had voted to repeal his disastrous tax cuts--Brownback told them it would be better for him politically, if his veto was overridden, rather than signing any bill.

Now...Brownback has hopes of taking The Kansas Miracle nationwide!!!

Ultimately, it will take years, if not decades to recover. I personally know 7 people--including 2 excellent teachers--who left, out of embarrassment.

#3 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-06-19 10:26 PM | Reply


I can offer a parable from my New England town.

Early on (i.e., the 1980's) before there was a Tea Party, we had a political group that "just said no" to anything and everything. That group gained power because what they said was addictive, i.e., lower taxes do not affect the quality of life of the town. So lower taxes were passed at the town meetings.

Long story short, when the schools in town were at the point of losing their accreditation, the town woke up.

Long story shorter, when you believe what you want to believe, and not the reality of the situation, gremlins reside therein.

My town found out in the 1980's. Kansas has found out recently.

Who else is drinking the kool-aid?

#4 | Posted by LampLighter at 2017-06-19 10:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

^
"an annual structural deficit of about $460,000,000.00"

#5 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-06-19 11:15 PM | Reply

Tax cuts increase revenue is the second biggest lie in the history of the world.

#6 | Posted by 726 at 2017-06-20 08:04 AM | Reply

Be happy folks. You get a 2-fer on this one.

1. Brownback has mud on his face with his own party overriding his veto on this issue.
2. Eberly's taxes are going up.

#7 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-20 08:07 AM | Reply

"Eberly's taxes are going up."

IOW, back to where they were before the disastrous cuts.

But I'm curious: would you rather pay the old rates, or watch the state continue on its death spiral?

#8 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-06-20 09:05 AM | Reply

Tax cuts increase revenue is the second biggest lie in the history of the world.
#6 | Posted by 726

Maybe so, but you're going to be hearing it a lot out of CONgress in the coming months. Rs nationwide are still trying to sell that lie. Along with a few others.

#9 | Posted by SomebodyElse at 2017-06-20 09:08 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

It's called arithmetic.

#1 | POSTED BY SOMEBODYELSE

what's that?

---the right----

#10 | Posted by kudzu at 2017-06-20 09:25 AM | Reply

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"IOW, back to where they were before the disastrous cuts."

the disastrous part was where they completely exempted corps and partnerships from state income tax.

I'm not sure how much my state income taxes dropped...I'm not sure what the rates were before and where they are returning to.

#11 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-20 10:02 AM | Reply

You get a 2-fer on this one.
1. Brownback has mud on his face with his own party overriding his veto on this issue.
2. Eberly's taxes are going up.

#7 | POSTED BY EBERLY AT 2017-06-20 08:07 AM | FLAG:

Whether Brownback has mud on his face or not, the idiots still think that tinkle down is a great economic model.

Taxes are the price you pay for being successful. I have a few clients that don't have that worry.

#12 | Posted by 726 at 2017-06-20 01:46 PM | Reply

Whether Brownback has mud on his face or not, the idiots still think that tinkle down is a great economic model.
Taxes are the price you pay for being successful. I have a few clients that don't have that worry.

#12 | POSTED BY 726

Somewhat on-topic anecdote: If I were to move about 3 miles west of where I live now I'd be in a different country and my property taxes would drop by half. My property taxes are really high and it sucks. Having said that, at least I see tangible benefits for the money spent. Call the County road commission about a nasty pothole (my 16 year old son destroyed the tire and rim of one of our cars hitting a pothole that was right where your right tires would be positioned in the lane. I saw the pothole the next morning when I was driving him to school. When I went to pick him up, the pothole had been filled. Also, our trash and recycling removal is very good and our snow removal and ice management is top-notch. It sucks having to pay so much and I'd be willing to sacrifice some of the quality of our services in order to pay less, but at least I am receiving a tangible benefit for the money spent.

#13 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-06-20 02:05 PM | Reply

"the disastrous part was where they completely exempted corps and partnerships from state income tax. "

And farmers, and landlords.

I've failed at finding the link, but I remember a report stating 8 of the top 10 companies affected were subsidiaries of Koch Industries, and an addition one was the KU basketball coach, who gets a small "wage", but a huge payment to his pass-through company.

#14 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-06-20 02:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The problem with supply side is that technology leveraging has left so few people with so much wealth that (even if they wanted to help the economy) they don't have the bandwidth to spend the money at a rate that will catalyze the economic in any meaningful way.

#15 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-06-20 05:53 PM | Reply

#14:

And the worst part about that is farming and landowning are the laziest ways to make money -- and should be taxed the heaviest. Getting rich off owning land should be illegal.

#16 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-06-20 05:55 PM | Reply

"but at least I am receiving a tangible benefit for the money spent."

You'd see it with health care too.
You just don't want to accept that fact because of your dogma.

The other side of the coin is seeing the tangible harm of money "saved" i.e. not spent.
You have a hard time seeing that, despite this thread being about it.
e.g. Flint, Michigan water supply.

#17 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-06-20 05:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

There's a simple explanation for what went wrong. It's called arithmetic.

#1 | Posted by SomebodyElse

Conservatives need another explanation. Arithmetic is too hard.

Tell them god did it. They usually buy that.

#18 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-20 05:58 PM | Reply

"The problem with supply side is that technology leveraging has left so few people with so much wealth that (even if they wanted to help the economy) they don't have the bandwidth to spend the money at a rate that will catalyze the economic in any meaningful way."

Been saying this for years.
Some people simply refuse to get it.
It's better for the economy when ten people buy ten K-cars than one person buys one Mercedes at 10x the price.

Frankly I don't see how someone like Eberly can't grok that. I'm pretty sure he does, maybe he just can't think of anything that can be done about it that he can stomach. (He has a sensitive stomach, so he votes Republican.)

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-06-20 05:58 PM | Reply

"2. Eberly's taxes are going up."

Laura, say Thank You for the handout.

#20 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-06-20 05:59 PM | Reply

It sucks having to pay so much and I'd be willing to sacrifice some of the quality of our services in order to pay less, but at least I am receiving a tangible benefit for the money spent.

#13 | Posted by JeffJ

Impossible. Taxes are theft. Real freedom-loving americans fill potholes themselves instead of relying on the nanny state.

#21 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-20 06:00 PM | Reply

I pay nearly $50K in taxes personally.

It feels like theft at times. Nobody else gets that from me but income, sales, and property taxes total that much.

#22 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-20 06:05 PM | Reply

You tally your sales taxes?
Man you really know how to party!

#23 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-06-20 06:13 PM | Reply

"Eberly's taxes are going up."

Your marginal rate used to be 6.45%. After Brownback's fiasco got passed, your marginal rate dropped to 4.6%.

Now the legislature has overridden Brownback's veto, your marginal rate will go to 5.7%. Your taxes are going up, but not to the marginal rate they were before the fiasco.

Of course, in the meantime, Brownback jacked up sales tax on food, to the highest rate on food in the nation, and cut tax credits for the poorest. 'Cause that's how Brownback rolls.

#24 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-06-20 06:21 PM | Reply

I pay nearly $50K in taxes personally.

It feels like theft at times. Nobody else gets that from me but income, sales, and property taxes total that much.

#22 | Posted by eberly

I pay more than that. I wouldn't mind it if it were going to schools and roads, but the fact that it goes to wall street bailouts, billion dollar military toys that never get used, NSA surveillance technology, and trump's golf trips to his resorts really bothers me.

#25 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-20 06:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's the local stuff that gets me steamed really.

$10 million football stadium for a public school. $27 million Dollar renovation of a basketball Arena and none of the stuff my kids ever get to use.
Police officers with their expensive SUVs to drive around in.

Stuff like that

#26 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-20 06:37 PM | Reply

Politicians are like women.
They'll shop till they drop.
Or until they run out of credit.

#27 | Posted by Ray at 2017-06-20 06:41 PM | Reply

It's the local stuff that gets me steamed really.

$10 million football stadium for a public school. $27 million Dollar renovation of a basketball Arena and none of the stuff my kids ever get to use.
Police officers with their expensive SUVs to drive around in.

Stuff like that

Posted by eberly at 2017-06-20 06:37 PM | Reply

You're talking about our stupid Sports Arena upgrade huh???

#28 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-06-20 06:42 PM | Reply

But aren't the people in Kansas the sort of people who care more about high school basketball than high school kids going to college... unless they're going to college to play basketball, I mean.

Driving across Kansas I listened to a high school state basketball tournament on AM radio that was literally being phoned in.

You just don't get that on either coast.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-06-20 06:45 PM | Reply

But aren't the people in Kansas the sort of people who care more about high school basketball than high school kids going to college...
#29 | Posted by snoofy

They're the sort of people that view going to college as liberal brainwashing, since their kids come back believing in evolution and climate change.

Conservatism requires ignorance.

#30 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-20 07:00 PM | Reply

Laura, perhaps I live a tad bit closer to you than you think....

#31 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-20 07:17 PM | Reply

I don't know about all states in the country but when you compare Kansas to Nebraska Oklahoma or Texas Colorado or Missouri the emphasis on high school athletics in Kansas is much less than in those states.

Very few high school athletes in Kansas get Division I scholarships anywhere.

Now, none of that means that education is a high priority either. Just saying ...

#32 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-20 07:19 PM | Reply

Eberly are you trying to make it a triangle or get in the middle

#34 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-06-20 07:25 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Illinois is broke.
California is broke.
Kansas is ranked 33rd in fiscal responsibility.
Fake news

#35 | Posted by 45_Long_Colt at 2017-06-20 10:45 PM | Reply

"Fake news"

Not to Kansans; they're been living through what you call fake. Rating firms downgraded them...twice. I doubt Moody's is faking.

#36 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-06-20 10:47 PM | Reply

"Kansas is ranked 33rd in fiscal responsibility."

Responsible to whom?
Exactly.

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-06-20 10:52 PM | Reply

I live in Kansas.

#38 | Posted by 45_Long_Colt at 2017-06-20 11:23 PM | Reply

Pretty sure the term fiscal responsibility is self explanatory.

#39 | Posted by 45_Long_Colt at 2017-06-20 11:24 PM | Reply

Pretty sure the term fiscal responsibility is self explanatory.

All of these "ranking" systems are hardly what you'd call "juried."

"The ranking for government was based on financial stability, budget transparency, government digitalization and state integrity. Kansas, which has suffered from budget shortfalls for the last 2 1/2 years, was ranked 48th when all these factors were weighed. The only states with lower rankings in that category were Nevada and New Jersey." www.kansascity.com

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-06-20 11:31 PM | Reply

Are you trying to tell me Illinois is better off than Kansas. The KC Star wich you are quoting is a left wing newspaper on the brink of bankruptcy itself.

#41 | Posted by 45_Long_Colt at 2017-06-20 11:34 PM | Reply

I read the article...
Kansas surpassed Missouri on some other categories, ranking 14th in education and 15th in infrastructure. Missouri ranked 23rd in education and 36th in infrastructure.
Missouri also scored poorly on crime, ranking 44th in the nation in that category. Kansas was slightly higher, with a rank of 32.
Kansas had a better overall ranking than Missouri, scoring an overall rank of 28 when all factors were weighed, compared to Missouri's 37.

Do you even read the articles you reference?

#42 | Posted by 45_Long_Colt at 2017-06-20 11:42 PM | Reply

"Kansas surpassed Missouri on some other categories, ranking 14th in education and 15th in infrastructure."

Education and infrastructure are two areas they've specifically shortchanged in the last 5 years, areas which historically take time for a loss of funding to show results.

Brownback took over $1billion from roads. Anyone thinking that's good news is an idiot.

Since Brownback's inauguration, 1,414 Kansans with disabilities have been thrown off Medicaid. In 2015, six school districts in the state were forced to end their years early for lack of funding. Cuts to health and human services are expected to cause 65 preventable deaths this year in Sedgwick County alone. In February, tax receipts came in $53 million below estimates; Brownback immediately cut $17 million from the state's university system.
nymag.com

Gov. Sam Brownback wants to take nearly $600 million from the highway fund over the next two and a half years. Since 2011, he has swept $1.3 billion from the fund to help plug budget holes.
www.kansas.com

#43 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-06-20 11:53 PM | Reply

Illinois is broke.
California is broke.
Kansas is ranked 33rd in fiscal responsibility.
Fake news

#35 | POSTED BY 45_LONG_COLT

According to what make believe source?

#44 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-06-21 09:18 AM | Reply

Ignorant Politicians... Good Gawd they can screw up a hookers wet dream.

Supply Side economics is based on this bit of work.

www.laffercenter.com

If people would just READ IT, instead of heap derision on an idea based on their political biases it would be easy to see what can go wrong. You see the Laffer Curve is a BELL CURVE. What will happen when you cut taxes depends entirely on where you are on that curve to begin with. The curve shows what happens as the difference between 0% tax rates to 100% tax rates.

If you are a true "Supply Sider" you KNOW that at a certain point cutting taxes actually destroys things. Tax cuts do NOT always make things better. The critics of Supply Side Economics always fail, (deliberately?), to see this. Politicians who ignore this for their own political gain and push tax cuts in a state that was nicely balanced to begin with do so with no thought to the harm they will do.

The fault does not lie with Supply Side economics. The fault lies with a Moron of a Governor who could not do the math with pictures and all sitting right in front of him.

#45 | Posted by AWinter at 2017-06-21 09:46 AM | Reply

I drive 50k miles a year.
Kansas has the better roads than any of its surrounding states. Iowa, Colorado,
Nebraska, Missouri and Oklahoma. Kansas starts a road project and completes it.
Not sure why all eyes are on Kansas..

ILLINOIS melts down in 10 days..

www.zerohedge.com

#46 | Posted by 45_Long_Colt at 2017-06-21 10:46 AM | Reply

"The fault does not lie with Supply Side economics. The fault lies with a Moron of a Governor who could not do the math with pictures and all sitting right in front of him."

No, the fault does lie with supply side economics which has never worked in any nation or state where it was tried. It also lies with the sold out politicians who work for billionaires who want tax cuts but not for the people who elected them. Trickle down is a scheme to fleece the sheep and it works for that purpose and that purpose only.

#47 | Posted by danni at 2017-06-21 10:53 AM | Reply

"No, the fault does lie with supply side economics which has never worked in any nation or state where it was tried"

It's been demonstrated that JFK income tax cut was an example of supply side economics working.

But not all of them work.

Kansas is a good example of it not working.

#48 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 11:25 AM | Reply

Seems the the financial difficulties in Kansas are quite the news for the progressives on this blog, because Kansas is very Republican. Strange but at the same time those enlightened souls must ignore California, New Jersey, and Illinois, all of which have much more serious problems than Kansas, but these are Democratic states so intent trumps outcome. Illinois is going bankrupt, what do you do with a state government so irresponsible that it spends it's self into oblivion? Maybe the fact that this Democrat state leads the nation in corruption convictions has something to do with their mismanagement.
The actual budgetary problems in Kansas was caused by the fall of oil prices about 4 years ago. The leadership counted their chickens before they hatched. Many people who would have been paying income tax and tax on the operation of the petroleum industry dried up like dew in August.

#49 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-06-21 11:26 AM | Reply

"Not sure why all eyes are on Kansas."

because tax cuts for the wealthiest tax payers gets attention...which is what Kansas did.

Brownback is a bit of a religious nut to boot...which also draws attention.

#50 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 11:27 AM | Reply

Are you trying to tell me Illinois is better off than Kansas. The KC Star wich you are quoting is a left wing newspaper on the brink of bankruptcy itself.

#41 | Posted by 45_Long_Colt

All newspapers are on the brink of bankrupcy. It's called the internet.

You're comparing a failing industry destroyed by new technology, with failed trickle down governmental budgeting strategies.

That's like comparing apples to elephants. They have nothing to do with each other.

But judging by your critical thinking skills, I can tell which party you're in.

#51 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 01:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Seems the the financial difficulties in Kansas are quite the news for the progressives on this blog, because Kansas is very Republican. Strange but at the same time those enlightened souls must ignore California, New Jersey, and Illinois, all of which have much more serious problems than Kansas

#49 | Posted by docnjo

Link? Or did you just pull this out of your butt?

California is the 6th largest economy in the world. Our biggest problem is everyone wants to live here.

#52 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 01:40 PM | Reply

The fault does not lie with Supply Side economics. The fault lies with a Moron of a Governor who could not do the math with pictures and all sitting right in front of him.

#45 | Posted by AWinter

His failed math IS supply side economics.

He followed the religion of tax cuts and then it was destroyed by the science of economics.

#53 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 01:41 PM | Reply

Illinois seems to be in worse shape than Kansas.

I don't know if Cali or New Jersey are as well (I am guessing not).

#54 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-06-21 01:49 PM | Reply

Illinois seems to be in worse shape than Kansas.

#54 | Posted by JeffJ

Is Illinois cutting the school week to 4 days because they can't afford to educate kids because they're giving tax cuts to rich people?

Kansas is.
www.kansas.com

#55 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 01:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

55

One district. One dirt poor district.

#56 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 01:59 PM | Reply

Is Illinois cutting the school week to 4 days because they can't afford to educate kids because they're giving tax cuts to rich people?
Kansas is.
www.kansas.com

#55 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Illinois is on the precipice of not being able to function at all, if this is to be believed:

The state can no longer function without a responsible and complete budget without severely impacting our core obligations and decimating services to the state's most in-need citizens," Mendoza wrote.

www.zerohedge.com

#57 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-06-21 02:14 PM | Reply

One district. One dirt poor district.

#56 | Posted by eberly

The poverty level of a district wouldn't make their schools close if the budget hadn't been wiped out by tax cuts for the rich.

#58 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 02:14 PM | Reply

Illinois is on the precipice of not being able to function at all, if this is to be believed:
www.zerohedge.com

#57 | Posted by JeffJ

It's not. Zerohedge has the same credibility as breitbart.

#59 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 02:17 PM | Reply

Laura, perhaps I live a tad bit closer to you than you think....

#31 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-20 07:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Woahhhhhhhhhh

#60 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-06-21 02:17 PM | Reply

Zerohedge was directly quoting the comptroller for the state.

Is she to be believed?

#61 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-06-21 02:18 PM | Reply

Speaks,

My closing message is simple: The state can no longer function without a responsible and complete budget without severely impacting our core obligations and decimating services to the state's most in need citizens. We must put our fiscal house in order. It is already too late. Action is needed now.

Here is the comptroller's letter in its entirety:

illinoiscomptroller.gov

If she is to be believed, I would say Illinois appears to be in much worse shape than Kansas.

#62 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-06-21 02:22 PM | Reply

If she is to be believed, I would say Illinois appears to be in much worse shape than Kansas.

#62 | Posted by JeffJ

That's not because their problems can't be solved. It's because the republican gov refuses to raise taxes to solve them without forcing dems to weaken workers' unions.

He's tanking the budget, punishing the citizens in order to blackmail dems into agreeing to policies which help the rich screw their workers.

www.dailyherald.com

#63 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 02:28 PM | Reply

58

STFU. there are 293 school districts in Kansas....you posted that 1 is going to 4 days a week and tried to sell that as what the whole state is doing.

1 out of 293.

#64 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 02:30 PM | Reply

STFU. there are 293 school districts in Kansas....you posted that 1 is going to 4 days a week and tried to sell that as what the whole state is doing.

1 out of 293.

#64 | Posted by eberly

1 school cutting students' class time so rich people can be richer is 1 too many.

And how many in illinois?

#65 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 02:35 PM | Reply

The Laffer curve is real. The problem is the republicans never evaluate the numbers behind it. As another poster said, the effect of cutting taxes depends on where you are on the bell curve. The republicans govern as though the peak of the curve was at about 1%. If you are on the right sight of the peak decreasing the tax rate does increase revenue. That is true. Mathematicians and Economists working together ran the numbers. The New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics reports that a comparison of academic studies yields a range of revenue maximizing rates that centers around 70%. That is to say it is likely that increased tax revenues of the last 40 years came from increased population and increased productivity that were unrelated to the laffer curve effects

#66 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-06-21 02:36 PM | Reply

That's not because their problems can't be solved. It's because the republican gov refuses to raise taxes to solve them without forcing dems to weaken workers' unions.

It's called compromise. If tax payers are going to have pay more then government union employees should have some concessions too.

He's tanking the budget, punishing the citizens in order to blackmail dems into agreeing to policies which help the rich screw their workers.

You sure do love your caricatures and narratives. There aren't enough "rich people" in Illinois to tax the ---- out of that will generate enough revenue to even come remotely close to correcting Illinois' fiscal problems. How much more in taxes should everybody in Illinois pay in order to fund lavish union benefits that were drafted when Democrats were in complete control of the state (Rauner was sworn in January of 2015)?

#67 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-06-21 02:36 PM | Reply

65]

I don't know...I'm not participating in a contest to see which state is worse off with you. You couldn't care less about either state nor how or why they have budgetary problems. You just want to hit republicans with your purse.

I'm not throwing Ill under the bus. You're obsessed with Kanas for whatever creepy reason.

#68 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 02:38 PM | Reply

and I'm just calling you the liar you are.

#69 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 02:39 PM | Reply

And how many in illinois?
#65 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Illinois has a different problem. Promising WAY too much in services and benefits with no way to realistically fund it all.

#70 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-06-21 02:39 PM | Reply

articles.chicagotribune.com

several years ago, it appears Illinois has gone to 4 day weeks.

#71 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 02:41 PM | Reply

I met with a state senator earlier today and our budget has been balanced. taxes went back to original levels and exemptions for most businesses were removed.

it's a projection but it's expected to balance the budget.

#72 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 02:45 PM | Reply

Illinois has done a great job of electing governors, BTW....

www.usnews.com

#73 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 02:49 PM | Reply

It's called compromise. If tax payers are going to have pay more then government union employees should have some concessions too.

#67 | Posted by JeffJ

It's called supporting the society which enabled your success.

The rich can afford tax increases. They wont even feel it. Holding the state hostage so they can screw workers isn't compromise, it's blackmail.

The working class has been making concessions for years. It's time for the rich to make some.

#74 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 02:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#74

That is an emotional argument that stems from your irrational hatred of Republicans. Hating Republicans isn't an irrational act in and of itself. The extreme to which you take it is irrational. As it pertains to Illinois, when Democrats had the reins they lavished benefits onto government workers because said workers supported their election efforts - truly an ---------- relationship. Now, Illinois has a governor who is trying to represent the taxpayers at the bargaining table and you hate him for it. This is why public sector unions are so awful. In the private sector they make sense. They are representing the workers and are directly negotiating with the employers. When Democrats are negotiating with public sector workers NOBODY is looking out for the financial interests of the taxpayers. As I already mentioned, in Illinois there isn't enough money at the top to be bilked that is going to come close to addressing Illinois' fiscal problems.

Also, I have a separate question for you: Let's say someone earns $1 million in income for a year. After federal, state and local taxes are assessed, how much money above the $100k threshold should this individual be allowed to keep? 60%? Half? 40%?

What about someone who earns $2 million? How much of that second million should they be allowed to keep?

There is no wrong answer - I am genuinely curious.

#75 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-06-21 03:02 PM | Reply

That is an emotional argument that stems from your irrational hatred of Republicans.

#75 | Posted by JeffJ

You've got me all wrong.

I don't hate republicans at all.

I reserve my hate for people who harm others, particularly people who weren't born as lucky as they are.
Harming others includes protecting polluters, preventing people from voting, taking health care from the poor and sick, underpaying teachers, deregulating corporations, giving tax cuts to the very rich, and starting stupid wars.

It's not my fault that the people who engage in this harmful greedy practices mostly happen to be republicans.

Maybe someday I'll meet a republican who thinks the rich are rich enough and the poor need more help, the planet needs protecting, guns need regulating, the military needs cutting, wall street needs prosecuting...
Hell I'd even vote for one. Let me know if any exist.

#76 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 03:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"You've got me all wrong."

No, he doesn't.

#77 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 03:15 PM | Reply

What about someone who earns $2 million? How much of that second million should they be allowed to keep?

There is no wrong answer - I am genuinely curious.

#75 | Posted by JeffJ

I'll answer your question with another question - how much of that 2 million would they have been able to earn without the resources they were given by the community - the education they and their workers received, the roads they commuted on, the safety provided by police, the health the enjoyed by eating safe foods, the research and investment that went into all the above...?

The answer is zero.

So any amount above zero is an amount society could argue a legitimate claim for.

#78 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 03:17 PM | Reply

No, he doesn't.

#77 | Posted by eberly

Cluck cluck go the chickens on the sidelines.

#79 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 03:20 PM | Reply

"What about someone who earns $2 million? How much of that second million should they be allowed to keep?"

If there is anybody with their hand out....then pretty much all of it.

#80 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 03:22 PM | Reply

"I am genuinely curious"

he doesn't have an answer. He'll always argue it's not enough...regardless of what the tax rates are.

The amount of tax paid by folks who make more than him is never enough.

Never. Never has and never will be. It will never be enough.

#81 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 03:24 PM | Reply

"I personally know 7 people--including 2 excellent teachers--who left, out of embarrassment."

no, they didn't.

If you say they left, then fine...but they didn't sell their houses, pack up, change jobs, etc...over "embarrassment".

Geez......could you manufacture more drama if you tried?

#82 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 03:28 PM | Reply

he doesn't have an answer. He'll always argue it's not enough...regardless of what the tax rates are.

The amount of tax paid by folks who make more than him is never enough.

Never. Never has and never will be. It will never be enough.

#81 | Posted by eberly

Still fighting for the benefit of people who don't care about you huh?

Hardworking people deserve to get rich. We shouldn't tax them so much that hard work is no longer rewarded greatly.
The reward of a luxurious lifestyle needs to be great, so that shallow people are motivated to work hard. That doesn't mean it needs to be so great that their great grandkids will never have to work, and they will be able to bribe the government to do whatever they want.

Conservatives have to CRY and WHINE that liberals will demand infinte taxes on the rich, because it's easier to argue against that fake straw man than defend the fact that the rich have more money than ever before, while the middle class and poor are struggling more.

The class war is real and it was started by the rich. The country's wealth has been redistributed to the top. The solution is easy- redistribute it back down.

#83 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 03:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

how much of that 2 million would they have been able to earn without the resources they were given by the community - the education they and their workers received, the roads they commuted on, the safety provided by police, the health the enjoyed by eating safe foods, the research and investment that went into all the above...?

That applies to everybody not just the rich.

#84 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-06-21 03:39 PM | Reply

"Still fighting for the benefit of people who don't care about you huh?"

not in the least bit.

I'm just saying that you don't believe there is a finite amount of tax revenue. It's never enough.

and BTW, does anybody care about me?

#85 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 03:53 PM | Reply

That applies to everybody not just the rich.

#84 | Posted by JeffJ

Not everyone is successful, so they have no fruits of society's investments to share. The more society's investments in you paid off, the more society should benefit from those investments.

#86 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 03:54 PM | Reply

'm just saying that you don't believe there is a finite amount of tax revenue. It's never enough.

and BTW, does anybody care about me?

#85 | Posted by eberly

Yes, but not the people you vote for.

And as I said, if you could make a legitimate case the the rich need more money, you wouldn't be arguing against straw men who are going to take ALL THEIR MONEY!

#87 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 03:55 PM | Reply

"Yes, but not the people you vote for."

uh oh.....you know who I vote for?

You know my credit card numbers also?

"And as I said, if you could make a legitimate case the the rich need more money,"

why would I? In my life I've never attempted such a thing.

Geez...what else can you completely ---- up??

#88 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 03:58 PM | Reply

Does that dummy think the poor care for him?

#89 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2017-06-21 04:04 PM | Reply

I don't know. But I know rich liberals and rich conservatives care equally for me.....zero.

#90 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 04:06 PM | Reply

uh oh.....you know who I vote for?

#88 | Posted by eberly

Excellent point. You might have a split personality for all i know.

You might spend all day arguing that the horrible libs want steal all the money from the wonderful rich people, and then turn around and vote for bernie sanders.

But if that's the case you should call a doctor immediately.

#91 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 04:06 PM | Reply

I don't know. But I know rich liberals and rich conservatives care equally for me.....zero.

#90 | Posted by eberly

The rich liberals are fighting for you to breathe cleaner air in a cooler world, for your kids to get a better education, and have better health care, you're simply ungrateful for it.

But you're right about the rich conservatives.

#92 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 04:07 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"The rich liberals are fighting for you to breathe cleaner air in a cooler world, for your kids to get a better education, and have better health care, you're simply ungrateful for it."

LOL

keep 'em coming, speak.

#93 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 04:10 PM | Reply

keep 'em coming, speak.

#93 | Posted by eberly

Keep what coming? Facts you can't retort?

#94 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 04:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

We are reducing our billion dollar deficit in half. We will soon be able to pay off our national debt.

#95 | Posted by Petrous at 2017-06-21 04:12 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"You might spend all day arguing that the horrible libs want steal all the money from the wonderful rich people"

You win, speakstupid. You're wrongfully accused me of enough ---- you're all hung up on. and adding your adjectives like "wonderful" and "horrible".

you're just a 2-bit drama queen begging for attention. You haven't come with a thousand miles of making a legitimate point.

Jeff read you right...you're just a ball of hateful emotion. You have nothing else to offer.

go play with someone else.

#96 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 04:15 PM | Reply

go play with someone else.

#96 | Posted by eberly

You had me at "you win."

#97 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 04:49 PM | Reply

#97 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-21 04:49 PM | Reply | Flag: Goatman's twin

#98 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 04:50 PM | Reply

I live in Kansas with 30 acres a pond and creek. Shoot guns, smoke cigars and cook shishkabobs on a hibachi. I would not move to California if you gave it all to me for free. Besides Republican Kris Kobach will be the next Governor.

#99 | Posted by 45_Long_Colt at 2017-06-21 09:41 PM | Reply

Shoot guns, smoke cigars and cook shishkabobs on a hibachi.

Wow. Impressive CV. No one in CA could touch that.

#100 | Posted by REDIAL at 2017-06-21 09:53 PM | Reply | Funny: 3

"Republican Kris Kobach will be the next Governor."

I love his slogan:

Because Sam Brownback Wasn't Bad Enough

#101 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-06-21 09:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I'd rather see Derek Schmidt.

#102 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-21 09:57 PM | Reply

"We are reducing our billion dollar deficit in half. We will soon be able to pay off our national debt."

How in the mind of the Trump voter are these two things supposed to be related?

#103 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-06-21 10:15 PM | Reply

I live in Kansas with 30 acres

That's what being 3/4 of 3/5 a person will get you.

a hibachi

You may have inadvertently salvaged this thread without even realizing it.

Nobody is mad that you live in Kansas like a modern day caveman. That's what America is all about. You do you, boo.

#104 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-06-21 10:20 PM | Reply

I find it a blessing to be able to enjoy what God has given me and my family. Many people do not.
Snoofy, why do you always seem to reply to my posts?

#105 | Posted by 45_Long_Colt at 2017-06-21 11:34 PM | Reply

I find it a blessing to be able to enjoy what God has given me...
#105 | POSTED BY 45_LONG_COLT AT 2017-06-21 11:34 PM | FLAG: moocher

#106 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-06-21 11:37 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I would not move to California if you gave it all to me for free.

California has the seventh largest/strongest econoy in the world. It also has some of the most beautiful coastlines, forests, desserts, mountain ranges, and valleys in the world.

You couldn't afford to move here even if you sold your 30 acres, your family, and your mule.

Stay in Kansas. We don't need homeschooled morons like you moving to our state.

#107 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-06-21 11:43 PM | Reply

I live in Kansas with 30 acres a pond and creek. Shoot guns, smoke cigars and cook shishkabobs on a hibachi. I would not move to California if you gave it all to me for free. Besides Republican Kris Kobach will be the next Governor.

#99 | POSTED BY ------------- AT 2017-06-21 09:41 PM | FLAG:
Wow, you're a poor man's Rush Limbaugh..... and that's not a compliment.

#108 | Posted by aborted_monson at 2017-06-22 02:03 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The class war is real and it was started by the rich. The country's wealth has been redistributed to the top. The solution is easy- redistribute it back down.
#83 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

Ain't going to happen. The rich have been using liberals envy and obsession to live at the expense of others against them. That's why they're losers.

#109 | Posted by Ray at 2017-06-22 06:41 AM | Reply

It sucks having to pay so much and I'd be willing to sacrifice some of the quality of our services in order to pay less, but at least I am receiving a tangible benefit for the money spent.

#13 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-06-20 02:05 PM | REPLY

Precisely. However some will still demand those services and expect to pay nothing.

I have one partner that thinks it is outrageous that his property taxes are 2x what his neighbor pays despite his house being three times the value because he is a new build 4,000 sq foot and his neighbor is a 45 year old 1,500 square foot house.

#110 | Posted by 726 at 2017-06-22 08:28 AM | Reply

"I have one partner that thinks it is outrageous that his property taxes are 2x what his neighbor pays despite his house being three times the value because he is a new build 4,000 sq foot and his neighbor is a 45 year old 1,500 square foot house."

We have exactly the same problem here in Florida. My daughter's home was assessed for thousands in taxes while her next door neighbor was paying hundreds.

#111 | Posted by danni at 2017-06-22 09:01 AM | Reply

"Ain't going to happen. The rich have been using liberals envy and obsession to live at the expense of others against them. That's why they're losers."

RCADE, I demand a Stupid flag.

#112 | Posted by danni at 2017-06-22 09:02 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

" Besides Republican Kris Kobach will be the next Governor."

So you'll have a criminal for a governor. Congrats. Plus one day in California is worth a year in a s**t hole like Kansas. You couldn't pay me enough to live there and I've been there. We had a neighbor who moved out there, the cost of living was so cheap, but the lifestyle was so awful he's moving back to the high rent district of Ft. Lauderdale.

#113 | Posted by danni at 2017-06-22 09:05 AM | Reply

"It also has some of the most beautiful coastlines, forests, desserts, mountain ranges, and valleys in the world."

agreed. wonderful place to visit.

but the traffic, mass humanity everywhere....not for me.

#114 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-22 09:19 AM | Reply

#113 | Posted by danni at 2017-06-22 09:05 AM | Reply | Flag: needs to do something about her thin skin

#115 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-22 09:20 AM | Reply

My skin is fine Eberly but I just prefer to live in one of the finest places in America. Sorry, I just like the finer things in life. Don't hate me because I'm spoiled.

#116 | Posted by danni at 2017-06-22 09:39 AM | Reply | Funny: 2

116

LOL definitely earns a FF.

#117 | Posted by eberly at 2017-06-22 09:43 AM | Reply

Being from the east coast and liking green landscapes, I actually find California to be quite ugly. Maybe it looks better since the drought lifted.

The weather is great there though except for the whole not having enough water for a few years there...

#118 | Posted by Sully at 2017-06-22 10:00 AM | Reply

Unfortunately there are a lot of "job creators" in this country who like to enjoy what god has given you and your family too WHILE YOU JUST DO THEIR WORK and don't get to enjoy it.

#119 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-06-22 10:01 AM | Reply

Ain't going to happen. The rich have been using liberals envy and obsession to live at the expense of others against them. That's why they're losers.

#109 | Posted by Ray

Oh really? Do the rich use "liberals envy and obsession" to bribe the government to stack the deck in their favor and screw everyone else?

It's not envy to say no one should be able to bribe the government to do their bidding. It's ethics and a sense of justice. Something republicans lack.

#120 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-22 02:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

the traffic, mass humanity everywhere....not for me.

Yea. The traffic is insane.

I don't mind the mass humanity. Los Angeles is a big county and everyone is pretty well dispersed.

But the freeways and surface streets are always gridlocked.

#121 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-06-22 03:47 PM | Reply

Do the rich use "liberals envy and obsession" to bribe the government to stack the deck in their favor and screw everyone else?

Liberals, among other voters, think of elections as a way of supplementing their income.

It's ethics and a sense of justice. Something republicans lack.

It's something supporters of government lack. There is nothing ethical about a system of government that robs Peter to pay Paul.

#122 | Posted by Ray at 2017-06-22 04:06 PM | Reply

Liberals, among other voters, think of elections as a way of supplementing their income.

It's ethics and a sense of justice. Something republicans lack.

It's something supporters of government lack. There is nothing ethical about a system of government that robs Peter to pay Paul.

Posted by Ray at 2017-06-22 04:06 PM | Reply

You don't vote so your views really don't matter.

#123 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-06-22 04:16 PM | Reply

You don't vote so your views really don't matter.
#123 | Posted by LauraMohr

As if they did anyway.

I'm not going to lower my moral standards like you did by voting.

#124 | Posted by Ray at 2017-06-22 04:28 PM | Reply

#124

Trump wins by .065 percent of the votes in the EC, but voting doesn't matter?

What a maroon.

#125 | Posted by Corky at 2017-06-22 04:29 PM | Reply

Being from the east coast and liking green landscapes, I actually find California to be quite ugly. Maybe it looks better since the drought lifted.

Ugly? Not sure what parts of the state you're thinking of.

But. To each their own.

#126 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-06-22 04:40 PM | Reply

NoCal is gorgeous.
SoCal is drab (fake green).

I know where Sul is coming from, but I wouldn't have stated it the way he did.

It really is a "to each his own" thing as you stated.

I hate cities. Grey and drab.

#127 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2017-06-22 04:44 PM | Reply

NoCal is gorgeous.

Agreed.

SoCal is drab (fake green).

Agreed. The cities are. But. SoCal has some beautiful deserts and coastlines.

I hate cities. Grey and drab.

I'd add dirty to grey and drab.

#128 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-06-22 05:05 PM | Reply

Trump wins by .065 percent of the votes in the EC, but voting doesn't matter?
What a maroon.
#125 | Posted by Corky

It doesn't matter. I've watch government grow faster than the market economy for the past sixty years. By Reagan, I realized government has become a cancerous growth that's sucking the life out of the economy. It's going to continue to grow until it collapses.

You can call me a maroon. I'll consider the source.

#129 | Posted by Ray at 2017-06-22 05:28 PM | Reply

It's something supporters of government lack. There is nothing ethical about a system of government that robs Peter to pay Paul.

#122 | Posted by Ray

Your hatred of goverment has been brainwashed into you by those who benefit from having a weak government.

The billionaires who run the country know that the only entity which can place limits on their power and greed is the government. So they engage in a lifelong battle to get voters to fight the government on their behalf.

Government is not bad. A big country needs a big government. Government is only bad when it is controlled by bad people, which is what we have now because our election system FORCES our government to do the bidding of the rich.
Just like a gun, government is only bad when its in the wrong hands.
But I doubt you demonize guns the way you demonize the government, do you?

The solution is simply - public funding of elections. Politicians would no longer have to worry about pleasing donors, they would have to worry about pleasing voters, and all sorts of problems would start improving.

Or continue to argue for the benefit of sociopathic billionaires. Just don't expect to be rewarded for it.

#130 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-06-22 05:52 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- a cancerous growth that's sucking the life out of the economy.

By which he means that the ebil gubmint makes him pay some taxes when he should have to pay none.

#131 | Posted by Corky at 2017-06-23 12:02 PM | Reply

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