Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, May 17, 2017

Andy Rowell, Common Dreams: Within 10 years, a radical technological shake up in the way we drive may occur as people switch from petrol and diesel engines to self-drive electric vehicles. The cars may be owned by fleets, not individuals. The days of individual car ownership are coming to an end, as people switch to self-drive electric vehicles which are 10 times cheaper to run. They will also be significantly cleaner. China and India are rolling out plans to dramatically accelerate the adoption of electric vehicles, initiatives that have prompted the IEA to take notice and promise a review its long-term oil demand forecast. Big Oil and big car companies will be in trouble as millions of drivers switch to clean electric vehicles. The tipping point could be only two or three years away. What the cost curve says is that by 2025 all new vehicles will be electric, all new buses, all new cars, all new tractors, all new vans, anything that moves on wheels will be electric, globally.

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Trump may want to bring back coal and deny climate change, but the market is moving in the opposite direction.

So says a new report by Stanford University economist, Professor Tony Seba, who labels the coming the new business revolution as "transport-as-a-service" (TAAS).

According to Seba in his report, "Rethinking Transportation," the TAAS disruption will have enormous implications across the transportation and oil industries, decimating entire portions of their value chains, causing oil demand and prices to plummet and destroying trillions of dollars in investor value, but also creating trillions of dollars in new business opportunities, consumer surplus and GDP growth."

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Electric is only as "clean" as the fuel used to generate it.

#1 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2017-05-16 09:06 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Electric is only as "clean" as the fuel used to generate it.

#1 | POSTED BY LFTHNDTHRDS AT

"Only as efficient, too."

-- people who think boiling water is the best way to produce electricity

#2 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2017-05-16 09:39 AM | Reply

Um, so all the plastic pieces making these vehicles will no longer be sourced from petroleum products?

#3 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2017-05-16 09:53 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Wow. A leftist dream.

The day someone cant enjoy a drive will be a sad day indeed. I truly wouldn't want to live in a "progressive" leftist world..

#4 | Posted by boaz at 2017-05-16 09:55 AM | Reply

#3 Plastic accounts for 4% of oil use. Transportation 45%. You tell me if Exxon should be concerned.

www.bpf.co.uk

#5 | Posted by 726 at 2017-05-16 09:58 AM | Reply

There you go again, 726.

You and your pesky facts.

#6 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-05-16 09:59 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#4 If driving is the only thing that brings you joy, you have a sad existence already. Humans will adapt and evolve. Humans enjoy life for thousands of years before the automobile.

#7 | Posted by 726 at 2017-05-16 09:59 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Self driving cars will be hampered by our absolute refusal to repair and modernize infrastructure.

I mean, yes the billionaires could theoretically make more money if we upgraded. But why bother when our government can just give them the money directly? Much more efficient.

#8 | Posted by Sully at 2017-05-16 10:03 AM | Reply

#5 | POSTED BY 726 AT 2017-05-16 09:58 AM | FLAG:

Wow, didn't know the figure was that small. Thanks for the link - I figured the numbers had changed more significantly between more fuel efficient cars and ever-more widespread use of plastics.

Though that is one reason I wish we would focus more on developing more renewable (and reliable) sources of plastics/polymers.

#9 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2017-05-16 10:10 AM | Reply

Sounds like the Über lifestyle..
The last trip I went on, i ubered places rather than renting a car, it worked wonderfully and was super convenient

#10 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2017-05-16 11:14 AM | Reply

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Interesting article but I don't buy some of what's in it.

for example.....

"This will keep an additional $1 trillion per year in Americans' pockets by 2030, potentially generating the largest infusion of consumer spending in history," he argues.

no chance. It's okay if it doesn't happen but it won't happen.

Also...what is their definition of a "tractor"? I assume a truck tractor or "semi"....but I don't know.

#11 | Posted by eberly at 2017-05-16 11:31 AM | Reply

Think drones and the Jetsons.

#12 | Posted by graph1 at 2017-05-16 06:45 PM | Reply

The real history of endless software bugs make self driving a long ways away. But stationary electric generating station have lower emissions than internal combustion engines.

#13 | Posted by nutcase at 2017-05-16 07:20 PM | Reply

Electric vehicles went from 0.1% of sales, to 0.15% of sales. I'm not so sure I'd trend that into a sales revolution where it becomes 100% in 8 years.

#14 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-17 07:44 AM | Reply

The last trip I went on, i ubered places rather than renting a car, it worked wonderfully and was super convenient

#10 | POSTED BY GONOLES92 AT 2017-05-16 11:14 AM | FLAG:

That's not what this is about though. This is Uber replacing personal vehicle ownership in daily life.

Try to Uber to work every day for a month. Compare it to your monthly car note. See what the #'s are. I do not commute at all, but for my wife it would double the cost.

#15 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-17 07:48 AM | Reply


So far, I've not seen any demo of a self-driving car that navigates the winter snow-bound roads of New England. All the demos seem to be in sunny, warm California or Arizona.

I have seen some test tracks set up in Michigan, but nothing seems to come out of those facilities that is capable of driving on snowy roads where the road markings are covered with snow banks.

#16 | Posted by LampLighter at 2017-05-17 10:49 PM | Reply

Trump may want to bring back coal and deny climate change, but the market is moving in the opposite direction.

Might know.. Another Trump thread. How long before the pukes demand another"extra speshul" independent investigation into this matter?

#17 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2017-05-17 11:14 PM | Reply

Its all bluster.....

It will take decades before autonomous cars are driving on the streets with other drivers. Just the liability will prevent this from happening.

But I could imagine a "drone" system working autonomously.

#16 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER

Snow is not the problem its other human drivers that is the issue. Having driven around PaloAlto and seen the GoogleCars running amok on the city streets, I can attest that other drivers take advantage of the algorithms used.

People cut in front of the GoogleCar knowing it will slow down and respond defensively.

If the world was full of autonomous cars, I would drive my own and it would be glorious..........

Self driving cars will be hampered by our absolute refusal to repair and modernize infrastructure. ~Sully

This is not true, while consistency is important, us engineers can figure it out. Its a hybrid system that is the problem; people mixing it up with autonomous cars

#15 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Not exactly apples to apples but....

Demand cost, along with hybrid system, will keep the autonomous Uber (why its valued so highly) like system from reaching possibilities, as more people have flextime this demand cost will be driven down further making it feasible.

#18 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2017-05-17 11:25 PM | Reply

" people who think boiling water is the best way to produce electricity "

Solar cells do not boil water to create electricity, neither do wind turbines.

#19 | Posted by danni at 2017-05-18 08:30 AM | Reply

"Demand cost, along with hybrid system, will keep the autonomous Uber (why its valued so highly) like system from reaching possibilities, as more people have flextime this demand cost will be driven down further making it feasible."

Corporate greed will kill Uber when the drivers realize they aren't making any money. They think they are but when you subtract expenses and taxes they are just trading dollars.

#20 | Posted by danni at 2017-05-18 08:32 AM | Reply

"Another Trump thread. How long before the pukes demand another"extra speshul" independent investigation into this matter?"

Phester is another kind of disgusting. He can't handle the news and thinks it's all us evil liberals that made Donald Trump collude with the Russians. If it is proven true, and it will be, I want an apology from Phester, unless, Phester, you think it is ok to collude with the Russians and allow them to meddle in our elections? But you won't respond with dignity because you don't have any.

#21 | Posted by danni at 2017-05-18 08:34 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Solar cells do not boil water to create electricity, neither do wind turbines.

#19 | POSTED BY DANNI

They just use the same toxic batteries that are in the cars to store the energy no big deal right? Electric cars aren't the answer yet, not until we figure out how to create better green energy, simply trading one toxic thing for another doesn't fix a problem.

As for me I'll drive myself. Maybe when I'm too old to drive like some of you i'll try a driverless, but that'll be in 40 some years.

#22 | Posted by PinkyanTheBrain at 2017-05-18 09:37 AM | Reply

@#18 ... Snow is not the problem its other human drivers that is the issue. ...

They both are the problem.

I specifically mention snow because I have not seen any street demos done while there is snow on the ground.

One reason snow is a problem is that it covers the lines on the roads and, in some cases, changes the driving lanes.

If you have ever seen a self-driving car running in "debug" mode, the display is quite interesting. You can see the computer recognizing other vehicles, landmarks and road markings, and navigating via those cues. Snow changes the landscape dramatically.

But yes,. other drivers are also a problem, as are pedestrians, dogs, trees falling on the road, etc., etc., etc.

#23 | Posted by LampLighter at 2017-05-18 09:42 AM | Reply

After they drive over some children they will be banned from the roads. Just wait........................

#24 | Posted by tmaster at 2017-05-18 10:45 AM | Reply

Wow. A leftist dream.

The day someone cant enjoy a drive will be a sad day indeed. I truly wouldn't want to live in a "progressive" leftist world..

#4 | Posted by boaz

Yeah because when cars were invented horses were outlawed, remember?

You've got fox on the brain, sucker.

#25 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-18 11:21 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

" I truly wouldn't want to live in a "progressive" leftist world."

You are living in one right now, like it or not.

#26 | Posted by danni at 2017-05-18 11:29 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"They just use the same toxic batteries that are in the cars to store the energy no big deal right?"

Miniscule amount of pollution compared to what a typical internal combustion engine creates and peope like Elon Musk are rapidly improving battery technology which will create batteries that hold charges longer with less ecological consequences.

#27 | Posted by danni at 2017-05-18 11:32 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

And musk's researchers just developed battery tech that will likely allow electric car batteries go 15-20 years before they start to lose capacity, instead of the current 8-10 years.

www.teslarati.com
Tesla battery expert says they've doubled lithium-ion battery cell life

#28 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-18 12:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The change is coming. There is a guy in my very middle class neighboorhood driving a Tesla.

#29 | Posted by SLBronkowitz at 2017-05-18 12:45 PM | Reply

There is a guy who lives near me that drives an electric BMW. The car is virtually silent.

#30 | Posted by danni at 2017-05-18 12:52 PM | Reply

#27 & #28

They are not there yet, be realistic. I'm not against electric cars, just saying lets not pretend its a huge improvement.... Maybe they will be one day, or maybe something better will come along.

Getting the materials to make the batteries is a huge impact on the environment. They need a solution for that otherwise it's the same problems as the combustion engine.

#31 | Posted by PinkyanTheBrain at 2017-05-18 12:58 PM | Reply

Electric cars are superior in performance, maintenance and emissions compared to internal combustion engines, but not cost yet, because of the cost and weight of batteries. Without lithium technology cell phones and Tesla cars would be impractical. Tesla's Reno plant will double global production, which is currently limited to Asia, especially China.

From speaksoftly's link:
It won't be long before batteries will hit $80/kWh, a cost that would make electric vehicles undeniably cheaper than traditional gas-powered vehicles.

The oil industry is fighting back and the current administration is in their camp.

A human driver will always be responsible for a vehicles path.

#32 | Posted by nutcase at 2017-05-18 01:06 PM | Reply

Phester is another kind of disgusting. He can't handle the news and thinks it's all us evil liberals that made Donald Trump collude with the Russians. If it is proven true, and it will be, I want an apology from Phester, unless, Phester, you think it is ok to collude with the Russians and allow them to meddle in our elections? But you won't respond with dignity because you don't have any.
#21 | Posted by danni

If **IF President Trump is found guilty of collusion with the Russians to throw the election, I'll issue an apology.
If he is cleared will YOU issue me an apology????

Until then I refuse to join your mob mentality.

#33 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2017-05-18 01:10 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

There is a guy who lives near me that drives an electric BMW. The car is virtually silent.

#30 | Posted by danni

Was it the little i3 that looks like a toaster? I test drove one last month. Ugly on the outside, but drove awesome. Electric acceleration is so much fun.

The problem is the thin tires on that car pop on potholes all the time, and there is no spare tire inside. Deal breaker for me.

The roads in america are crap compared to the successful socialist economies where this car was designed to drive.

But I've still got my tesla Model 3 reservation...

#34 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-18 01:12 PM | Reply

Electric cars are superior in performance, maintenance and emissions compared to internal combustion engines, but not cost yet, because of the cost and weight of batteries. Without lithium technology cell phones and Tesla cars would be impractical. Tesla's Reno plant will double global production, which is currently limited to Asia, especially China.

From speaksoftly's link:
It won't be long before batteries will hit $80/kWh, a cost that would make electric vehicles undeniably cheaper than traditional gas-powered vehicles.

The oil industry is fighting back and the current administration is in their camp.

A human driver will always be responsible for a vehicles path.

#32 | Posted by nutcase

The depreciation on electric cars makes them very affordable for the second owner.
You can get a 3 year old used chevy volt with 35k miles on it for around $16k now. That car lets you commute to work every day on electric power along (up to 40 miles) then has a gas engine for longer trips so you can use it like a normal car. Best of both worlds, but it's not quite as fast pure electics like the bmw i3 or tesla.

And i do think the days of full autonomy are coming. There's too much money to be made off of it, and money makes the laws in america.

#35 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-18 01:17 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Was it the little i3 that looks like a toaster?"

Yep. I was walking my dog on this little deadend street and he came up behind us, very slowly, and he opened the window so we could talk. Nice guy, said he had to be careful because the car is so quiet that people don't realize he's there. For my purposes that car would be perfect, I don't hardly ever go more than a few miles.

#36 | Posted by danni at 2017-05-18 01:25 PM | Reply

Yep. I was walking my dog on this little deadend street and he came up behind us, very slowly, and he opened the window so we could talk. Nice guy, said he had to be careful because the car is so quiet that people don't realize he's there. For my purposes that car would be perfect, I don't hardly ever go more than a few miles.

#36 | Posted by danni

You should get one if you can afford it. The range is about 60-80 miles. The first model year was 2014, and those are coming off lease now and you get get one for under 20k. They also make a version with a tiny gas engine in it which charges the battery if it runs out, and extends the range by 70 more miles.

If you can't afford it, used electric Nissan Leafs or Fiat 300e's are under $9k now.

#37 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-18 01:28 PM | Reply

Electric cars are superior in performance, maintenance and emissions

#32 | Posted by nutcase

Need a lot of asterisk on that one. They have better zero to sixty, but inferior range and a massive difference in time required to charge a battery vs fill a tank. They have less co2 emissions, but much more particulate emissions due to being, on average, 30% heavier than a liquid fuel equivalent. To get the weight down enough to lower the particulate emissions you have to sacrifice a lot of features US buyers expect, or run tires that will make the driving experience unpleasant to say the least.

#38 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-18 01:41 PM | Reply

Need a lot of asterisk on that one. They have better zero to sixty, but inferior range and a massive difference in time required to charge a battery vs fill a tank. They have less co2 emissions, but much more particulate emissions due to being, on average, 30% heavier than a liquid fuel equivalent. To get the weight down enough to lower the particulate emissions you have to sacrifice a lot of features US buyers expect, or run tires that will make the driving experience unpleasant to say the least.

#38 | Posted by sitzkrieg

The range and charging times will rapidly improve.

The particulate matter story is just more fossil fuel profiteer propaganda, trying desperately to keep their profits up. Yes heavier cars shred their tires and brakes more, and that becomes particulate matter, but they didn't compare electrics to gas SUVs, which most americans drive and are just as heavy. Also electric cars rarely have to use their brakes, so saying electric cars will create more brake dust is transparently dishonest.

#39 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-18 01:44 PM | Reply

Wow. A leftist dream.

The day someone cant enjoy a drive will be a sad day indeed. I truly wouldn't want to live in a "progressive" leftist world..

#4 | Posted by boaz

So the "Free Market" is leftist now? These decisions are being made by corporations who want to improve their bottom line. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work in "conservative" world? Government interference would be "picking winners and losers", wouldn't it?

#40 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2017-05-18 07:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I'm sure I could Google this, but some of you appear to be well read on the subject and I'm thinking at least some of you are human, so I'll try here first. I've been thinking lots about the future of electric and I'm curious about how they fare for work applications. Can an electric vehicle get enough horsepower and torque to haul a trailer? Plow snow? Etc.?

#41 | Posted by dylanfan at 2017-05-18 07:33 PM | Reply

I'm sure I could Google this, but some of you appear to be well read on the subject and I'm thinking at least some of you are human, so I'll try here first. I've been thinking lots about the future of electric and I'm curious about how they fare for work applications. Can an electric vehicle get enough horsepower and torque to haul a trailer? Plow snow? Etc.?

#41 | Posted by dylanfan

Telsa is developing a tesla semi tractor trailer that in a tug-o-war will pull a fossil fuel semi truck UPHILL.

Trucks are all about torque, which is the best part of electric cars.

Tesla is also developing an elecrtic pickup truck which should be out in 5 years or so.

Currently the tesla model X can have an attached tow hitch. I'm sure towing kills your electric range, but that will be solved in time.

#42 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-18 07:49 PM | Reply

The particulate matter story is just more fossil fuel profiteer propaganda

#39 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2017-05-18 01:44 PM | REPLY

It's UK government public science. Thus far it has survived peer review.

Battery cars, currently, have an emissions downside directly attributable to consumer preferences and a heavy power storage medium. That doesn't mean it won't change in the future, and resorting to science denial is stupid.

#43 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-18 07:56 PM | Reply

"Electric vehicles went from 0.1% of sales, to 0.15% of sales. I'm not so sure I'd trend that into a sales revolution where it becomes 100% in 8 years."

Good call. On that trend, 50% annual growth, it takes seventeen years.

And if you own an electric self-driving car, seems like most of the time it will be out there making money for you and Uber.

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-05-18 08:05 PM | Reply

"much more particulate emissions due to being, on average, 30% heavier than a liquid fuel equivalent"

You're telling me the electricity produced to move an electric car creates more particulate emissions than the gasoline it takes to move a conventional car the same distance?

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-05-18 08:12 PM | Reply

It's UK government public science. Thus far it has survived peer review.

Battery cars, currently, have an emissions downside directly attributable to consumer preferences and a heavy power storage medium. That doesn't mean it won't change in the future, and resorting to science denial is stupid.

#43 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Yes but it's cherry picked science, the fossil fuel profiteer's specialty.

They compare electric cars to light cars, not to the SUVs and trucks most americans drive.

And they calculate the generation of brake dust by the car's weight, which only applies to gas cars since electric cars rarely use their brakes.

That's not science that's propaganda.

The only downside of electric cars is range limits, cost, and charging time. All of those will come down rather rapidly. They have no emissions downside except in a few places where local power is generated with dirty coal.

#46 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-18 08:16 PM | Reply

Oh. Right. Brake pad wear. LOL.

#47 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-05-18 08:17 PM | Reply

Tire and brake particulate, which all cars emits, is inert like dust, and short lived as in washed away with every rain, unlike the many nasty gaseous emissions from combustion which have a very long half life and mix into many layers of the atmosphere with many detrimental chemical effects on animals, plants and climate.

This petro industry issue is real, but trivial.

#48 | Posted by nutcase at 2017-05-18 10:06 PM | Reply

Oh. Right. Brake pad wear. LOL.

#47 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2017-05-18 08:17 PM | REPLY

Wrong.

They emit less brake dust. They use smaller brake pads and regenerative braking in both electrics & hybrid-electrics.

Electric-only vehicles chew through tires though, and contrary to Nutcases "oh it just gets washed away" (wtf? gone Republican on us?) current science says the rubber particulate emissions from all vehicles are quite unhealthy and polluting. Electric vehicles happen to currently emit much, much more due to the fact they're using tires rated for much lighter vehicles.

#49 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 08:02 AM | Reply

They compare electric cars to light cars, not to the SUVs and trucks most americans drive.

#46 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2017-05-18 08:16 PM | REPLY

No that comparison is against an equivalent vehicle, electric car vs hybrid car vs liquid fueled car.

You are also making the unsupported leap that people won't be driving electric SUVs and trucks. This is not true, you can already buy hybrid models and battery models are in development.

#50 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 08:04 AM | Reply

That's not science that's propaganda.

The only downside of electric cars is range limits, cost, and charging time. All of those will come down rather rapidly. They have no emissions downside except in a few places where local power is generated with dirty coal.

#46 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2017-05-18 08:16 PM | FLAG:

You are engaging in direct propaganda. The science on particulate emissions continues to hold up. The studies have been commissioned to figure out where the problem lies and how to best guide policy to fix it. Also, most battery cars throughout the world are charged by coal, it's not "a few places".

#51 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 08:07 AM | Reply

And if you own an electric self-driving car, seems like most of the time it will be out there making money for you and Uber.

#44 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2017-05-18 08:05 PM | FLAG:

Uber will be worth hundreds of billions at that point. They're not going to profit share with you, they'll just run their own private fleet. It's weird to see normally anti-corporate people cheerleading the impending demise of the vehicle sharing economy, the demise of vehicle equity in private hands, and the subsequent transfer of wealth to a massive corporation run by libertarians.

#52 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 08:10 AM | Reply

Also, just curious, whom here actually owns a hybrid or electric car? I'd expect some Prius owners but curious if anybody here bought a Volt or a Leaf yet. If so, do you like it, how has the ownership experience been?

#53 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 08:18 AM | Reply

"It's weird to see normally anti-corporate people cheerleading the impending demise of the vehicle sharing economy,"

We actually agree on something. I see Uber as a disaster for low income taxi drivers who will make far less money in a deregulated transportation market and consumers risk their lives every time the get into one of these cars which aren't even insured adequately, with drivers who are barely able to operate the vehicle and, because we have first hand experience with this, have sanitation habits that my dog would look down on. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. We had to put up a fence around the company I work at because of the disgusting things Uber drivers were doing here in the middle of the night. I wouldn't take an Uber if you paid me. I will call a taxi, pay a little more but be more sure of getting to my destination safely.

#54 | Posted by danni at 2017-05-19 09:09 AM | Reply

"I see Uber as a disaster for low income taxi drivers"

wow, there's a group someone gives a crap about.....LOL

#55 | Posted by eberly at 2017-05-19 09:13 AM | Reply | Funny: 3

"..the disgusting things Uber drivers were doing here in the middle of the night."

like what?

#56 | Posted by eberly at 2017-05-19 09:14 AM | Reply

Maybe we should start talking about what to do about 10.5 million American truck drivers that will lose their jobs once self driving vehicles are perfected.

Why would a trucking company pay for a truck AND pay for a driver who can only drive 70 hours a week when they can buy a truck that will drive 24/7 and never need to stop for sleep or get distracted?

#57 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-05-19 10:23 AM | Reply

Electric-only vehicles chew through tires though, and contrary to Nutcases "oh it just gets washed away" (wtf? gone Republican on us?) current science says the rubber particulate emissions from all vehicles are quite unhealthy and polluting. Electric vehicles happen to currently emit much, much more due to the fact they're using tires rated for much lighter vehicles.

#49 | Posted by sitzkrieg

WRONG.

www.digitaltrends.com
"A new study published by the journal ScienceDirect claims that due to their increased weight, electric cars produce ABOUT THE SAME particle emissions as gas and diesel cars."

#58 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-19 11:18 AM | Reply

You're telling me the electricity produced to move an electric car creates more particulate emissions than the gasoline it takes to move a conventional car the same distance?

#45 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2017-05-18 08:12 PM | FLAG:

According to the Atmospheric Science journal through peer reviewed study, if you compare the electric version of a vehicle with it's petrol counterpart, the electric version is on average 24% heavier. This extra weight, while using the same tires, causes excessive wear on them, which in turn causes a large increase in particulate pollution. When you add that to all sources of particulate pollution from the vehicle, it's about the same as the lighter, combustion version of the vehicle.

It's a simple issue. Electric vehicles are fat. The tire problem would be an easy fix, but people want cars that ride comfortable so it's a compromise until there is a huge weight reduction in the battery systems of production vehicles.

#59 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 01:50 PM | Reply

and not one electric vehicle owner yet posting. No hybrid owners either? Jeez even I've owned a Prius at one point. It's a good car, minus the 5 year battery swap.

#60 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 01:52 PM | Reply

When the vehicle breaks down, will a driver-less tow truck come tow it away?
If the vehicle strikes a pedestrian and keeps driving, who is sued for hit and run?
What speed limit will these driver-less cars be required to follow?
When they have to change lanes with multiple driver-less cars - who has right of way?
If protestors stand in the road, will the driver-less cars become angry?
How will small town sheriffs pull over a driver-less car that didn't see the hidden speed limit sign?
How will driver-less cars react to lawn car companies' trucks that never pull over far enough?
If there is a outage, what happens at the intersection when no lights at all in any direction works?
What happens if a crossing guard holds up a 'stop sign' to allow pedestrians crossing the street?
What happens when a train is coming and the track section doesn't have cross bars - this is really common in my area.
The great truck robbery scene - any witnesses? No. Didn't the driver see anything? No. no driver.
Something was placed in the road to stop the vehicle. Then it was simply opened up. Do you not see this happening?

#61 | Posted by Petrous at 2017-05-19 02:12 PM | Reply

According to the Atmospheric Science journal through peer reviewed study, if you compare the electric version of a vehicle with it's petrol counterpart, the electric version is on average 24% heavier. This extra weight, while using the same tires, causes excessive wear on them, which in turn causes a large increase in particulate pollution.

#59 | Posted by sitzkrieg

And post #58 shows that is wrong.
"A new study published by the journal ScienceDirect claims that due to their increased weight, electric cars produce ABOUT THE SAME particle emissions as gas and diesel cars."

And the study doesn't measure C02. So even if they particulate emissions are the similar, C02 ranges from similar (if the power comes from dirty coal plants) to ZERO (if the power comes from renewables) for electric cars, which makes them far more environmentally friendly than gas cars.

#62 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-19 02:17 PM | Reply

#61 | Posted by Petrous

All that will be sorted out by engineers, lawyers, and insurers. It won't stop autonomous driving. There is too much money to be made, and that will drive the change.

#63 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-19 02:20 PM | Reply

Would we be too vulnerable to economic collapse if struck by an EMP when every mode of transpo was an electric car, truck, train, etc

I know as it stands now we'd be in bad shape, but between hacking and EMP threats it seems to really open ourselves up.

I know you can't fight technology, but it sure am scary.

#64 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2017-05-19 02:26 PM | Reply

And the study doesn't measure C02.

#62 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2017-05-19 02:17 PM | REPLY

Yes, in which case hybrids win in most circumstances. They are, currently, the best of both worlds. If you have a renewable microgeneration system that's capable of supporting you and the absolutely enormous amount of maH the vehicle needs, you can have a smaller co2 footprint, but this is rare. The majority of battery cars are charged with fossil fuels. Hybrid's onboard power plants are greener, battery packs are 10x smaller, and for ones like a Prius with an available mechanical engine engagement, they are more efficient as you climb over 40mph and torque needs give way to horsepower.

#65 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 02:36 PM | Reply

Yes, in which case hybrids win in most circumstances. They are, currently, the best of both worlds. If you have a renewable microgeneration system that's capable of supporting you and the absolutely enormous amount of maH the vehicle needs, you can have a smaller co2 footprint, but this is rare. The majority of battery cars are charged with fossil fuels. Hybrid's onboard power plants are greener, battery packs are 10x smaller, and for ones like a Prius with an available mechanical engine engagement, they are more efficient as you climb over 40mph and torque needs give way to horsepower.

#65 | Posted by sitzkrieg

If you are driving under 40 miles a day, the most economical and eco friendly car you can get is a used chevy volt, which will use zero gas for 40 miles. Especially if you like driving, since it is a lot more fun to drive than a prius.

And the source of electricity is no reason to avoid electric cars. In the worst circumstances, an electric car charged with coal power still breaks even with having a gas car. If you get your power from gas, nuclear, geothermal, solar, etc, you are doing far better than gas cars.

#66 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-19 03:21 PM | Reply

chevy volt, which will use zero gas for 40 miles. Especially if you like driving, since it is a lot more fun to drive than a prius.

Hmmm, I'll have to check into the Volt, but I probably won't trade cars for ~4 years. I like driving and will be looking to get a hybrid

#67 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2017-05-19 03:37 PM | Reply

Hmmm, I'll have to check into the Volt, but I probably won't trade cars for ~4 years. I like driving and will be looking to get a hybrid

#67 | Posted by GOnoles92

The reason I know so much about them is because I've been researching my next car purchase, which I've determined will be electric.

I have an early reservation for a Tesla Model 3, but that would cost about $32k after tax breaks. I never buy brand new cars, but I might for the tesla because I'd get a $7500 tax break that will soon no longer be available.

But I've researched used BMW i3's and used chevy volts.

The i3 was fast and fun to drive, but it's odd looking, can't really do road trips, and the narrow tires get a ton of flats and the car has no spare tire. Used ones cost around $20k.

The volt is the smartest choice. Not FAST, but quick off the line at least. And since the new design came out, the old design (which i think looks better) has dropped in price rapidly. You can get a 2014 with 35k miles for around $15k.

But of those cars, the tesla is the only one that will get you laid. Is that worth 20k more than the volt? Not if you're already getting laid.

#68 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-19 03:46 PM | Reply

If you haven't driven an electric car (NOT HYBRID, but one where the wheels are directly driven by electric motors), I'd recommend trying it before your next purchase. It's a great experience. One test drive and I knew my next car would be electric.

#69 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-19 04:12 PM | Reply

"According to the Atmospheric Science journal through peer reviewed study, if you compare the electric version of a vehicle with it's petrol counterpart, the electric version is on average 24% heavier. "

But...
A Tesla Model S doesn't weigh 24% more than vehicles in its class, such as a Mercedes E Class.

I can see how a vehicle that weighs more will eat tires faster. It's just not a valid assumption that they weigh more.

For example a Prius has about the same curb weight as a Honda Civic, and the Civic is probably a little smaller.

#70 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-05-19 06:51 PM | Reply

It's just not a valid assumption that they weigh more.

#70 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2017-05-19 06:51 PM | REPLY

It's empirical, peer reviewed science. If you can poke holes in the study, publish your research in a respected journal.

#71 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 09:19 PM | Reply

If you are driving under 40 miles a day, the most economical and eco friendly car you can get is a used chevy volt, which will use zero gas for 40 miles. Especially if you like driving, since it is a lot more fun to drive than a prius.

#66 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2017-05-19 03:21 PM | FLAG:

If you are not charging it with fossil fuel generation, it can be the most eco friendly, but that's the minority and will be for awhile. Otherwise, it's more eco friendly to drive a hybrid. A fuel efficient car will beat it in economy & total cost of ownership. Brushless motors are less efficient that transmissions unfortunately.

My power is wind, but no electric car offers the range for the driving I do on occasion. I can't get to a flying event, use the vehicle to charge all my LiPos, and make it home. I'd have to bring a generator with me to charge the car. Defeats the purpose, should just buy a hybrid. I've driven the Volt, honestly not that impressed with it. I think the Prius platform is better overall, and consumer sales reflect its superiority.

#72 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 09:26 PM | Reply

And a Volt will do 53 miles on battery, being driven for peak efficency. Go ahead and cut that by 70% since you're punching it off the line lol.

#73 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-05-19 09:29 PM | Reply

My power is wind, but no electric car offers the range for the driving I do on occasion. I can't get to a flying event, use the vehicle to charge all my LiPos, and make it home. I'd have to bring a generator with me to charge the car. Defeats the purpose, should just buy a hybrid. I've driven the Volt, honestly not that impressed with it. I think the Prius platform is better overall, and consumer sales reflect its superiority.

#72 | Posted by sitzkrieg

To each their own.

I like the volt because it has unlimited gas range after the battery is depleted. You can even use it to power your house during a power outage.

If you're going to get a prius, just please don't get the new model. That thing is so ugly I wince every time i drive past one. I literally sat at an intersection the other day looking at a new prius on the other side of the intersection, trying to figure out if it had been in a frontal collision or not. As it drove closer, I realized that's just the way the car looks. Toyota's designers are smoking some serious drugs lately.

#74 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-19 09:33 PM | Reply

Toyota's designers are smoking some serious drugs lately.
#74 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

The point is to be unique and aero .... so when you see one you think ... eco prius... its a differentiator.

eco friendly car you can get is a used chevy volt,

What do you feel about the Fiat 500e? I like them and have been thinking that would be good with a sunrun installation.

#75 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2017-05-19 10:25 PM | Reply

"If you can poke holes in the study, publish your research in a respected journal.
#71 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG"

The assumption is just not a good one, because that's not how cars get purchased.
I just looked it up and a Fiat 500e does in fact weigh ~25% more than the 500c entry level base model.
But it weighs the same as the 500X, and less than the 500L.
You can accept that what I'm saying is right, or deflect, your call.

#76 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-05-19 11:08 PM | Reply

I have driven a Prius 2gen and a Ford Fusion Hybrid, when I borrowed my family's cars.
They are not outstanding from the driver or passenger experience, but they are good enough.

They have backup cameras for you snowflakes.

But if you care about fuel cost, or emissions, they get about double the mpg.
And you might get for other perks, like driving in the HOV lane alone. Plus a ridiculous tax credit.

I can't imagine someone buying a new general purpose daily driver vehicle and not getting at least a hybrid, if not the new Tesla.
Don't you get more total distance off a tank on a hybrid than a regular car, even with the smaller tank of the hybrid?
And be careful when carrying gasoline in the passenger cabin of the vehicle, you might accidentally drink it instead of the moonshine.

#77 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-05-19 11:58 PM | Reply

What do you feel about the Fiat 500e? I like them and have been thinking that would be good with a sunrun installation.

#75 | Posted by AndreaMackris

Honestly I never looked into them. There's a lot around this city but they look like a coffin to me.

#78 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-05-20 12:50 AM | Reply

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