Wednesday, January 17, 2018

The Humiliation of Aziz Ansari

Twenty-four hours ago -- this is the speed at which we are now operating -- Aziz Ansari was a man whom many people admired and whose work, although very well paid, also performed a social good. He was the first exposure many young Americans had to a Muslim man who was aspirational, funny, immersed in the same culture that they are. Now he has been -- in a professional sense -- assassinated, on the basis of one woman's anonymous account. Many of the college-educated white women who so vocally support this movement are entirely on her side. The feminist writer and speaker Jessica Valenti tweeted, "A lot of men will read that post about Aziz Ansari and see an everyday, reasonable sexual interaction. But part of what women are saying right now is that what the culture considers 'normal' sexual encounters are not working for us, and oftentimes harmful."

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We're at warp speed now, and the revolution -- in many ways so good and so important -- is starting to sweep up all sorts of people into its conflagration: the monstrous, the cruel, and the simply unlucky. Apparently there is a whole country full of young women who don't know how to call a cab, and who have spent a lot of time picking out pretty outfits for dates they hoped would be nights to remember. They're angry and temporarily powerful, and last night they destroyed a man who didn't deserve it.

Comments

www.nytimes.com

Grace's story was met with so many digital hosannas by young feminists, who insisted that consent is only consent if it is affirmative, active, continuous and -- and this is the word most used -- enthusiastic. Consent isn't the only thing they are radically redefining. A recent survey by The Economist/YouGov found that approximately 25 percent of millennial-age American women think asking someone for a drink is harassment. More than a third say that if a man compliments a woman's looks it is harassment.

#1 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-15 08:25 PM

"You'd better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone,
for the times they are a changin'..."

#2 | Posted by Angrydad at 2018-01-15 08:52 PM

Here's an interesting comment from the Caitlin Flanagan link's comments section ...

TriniJanJan

Today a group of us discussed this on facebook...35 - 45 year old women, some married, others single, some career women, some at home with the kids, a variety of races located in the US, the UK and the Caribbean.

Unanimously we all wondered what on earth was the point of the article because in our eyes it was not an assault in any way, shape or form.

Personally I got the impression that she was upset it didn't turn out the way she hoped, he didn't romance her and turn her into the latest WAG (Wives and Girlfriends).

Who on earth goes to a stranger's apartment on the first date, takes their clothes off and engages in sexual activity, but then seems hurt and confused he only wanted sex?

This was nothing short of a hit job on this man, all because he didn't live up to her deluded fantasies.

And just like that, what started as a welcome movement to help women is going down the drain with every vapid airhead who doesn't get her way.


This comment sums it up pretty well, imho.

#3 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-01-15 09:15 PM

Younger than 35 women are kicking the older women to the curb and making a new reality. They aren't asking permission or caring about the consequences.

One comment I read was pretty funny: "From now on, I'm only going on double dates: Me, her, and our lawyers."

#4 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-15 09:39 PM

American women think asking someone for a drink is harassment. More than a third say that if a man compliments a woman's looks it is harassment.

As what has always been the case, since the beginning of time, it takes two to tango.

If young women truly think these things, they will eventually be doing the cha-cha all by themselves.

This "Grace" had a date that didn't trip her light fantastic, as she discovered that this Ansari guy ain't Rudolph Valentino.

And this Ansari guy just wanted sex -- what a cad.

And this Flanagan person is writing this up to make it all sound like the Invasion of Poland.

Two words = fantasy baseball.

#5 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-01-15 10:41 PM

I was reading this at work today and found it interesting for two reasons.

One, after reading the Babe post on the incident (linked in Atlantic article) that sparked this whole thing, I thought it odd that this is the incident where people are speaking out and saying "whoah, maybe we shouldn't be so cavalier with these accusations and dropping the hammer". The description of the incident portrayed an extended period of time with repeated, aggressive sexual advances that were stopped and, according to the woman involved, clearly labeled as unwanted. Contrast that with say Al Franken, who (if memory serves) didn't actually engage in sexual acts with anyone and was accused of touching a woman's ass. Just makes me wonder why the line in the sand now.

Two, it's women doing the calling out. Makes one wonder if this movement will either temper itself or implode under it's own self-induced load of 'every one is a victim if they want to be' mentality.

#6 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-15 10:45 PM

A recent survey by The Economist/YouGov found that approximately 25 percent of millennial-age American women think asking someone for a drink is harassment. More than a third say that if a man compliments a woman's looks it is harassment.

The millennial generation is going to see an unprecedented number of cat ladies.

#7 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-15 10:47 PM

This comment sums it up pretty well, imho.
#3 | POSTED BY PINCHALOAF

And a woman victim blaming to boot!?!

#8 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-15 10:48 PM

And a woman victim blaming to boot!?!

#8 | POSTED BY JPW

Grace wasn't a victim. She had a bad date.

We all go thru these things.

#9 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-01-15 10:58 PM

I was kidding.

And I'm half expecting that accusation to be leveled by the SJW crowd.

#10 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-15 11:25 PM

I was kidding.

And I'm half expecting that accusation to be leveled by the SJW crowd.

#10 | POSTED BY JPW

Oops, sorry, I mis-read your post ... I'm never shy about saying out loud that I'm far from being the brightest star in the galaxy ~

#11 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-01-15 11:30 PM

Here's Bill Maher interviewing Caitlin Flanagan ...

youtu.be
[4:36]

I now mostly get what Flanagan is getting at in the Atlantic article ... that young Millennials (like all young people) don't really know what they're doing. What makes young Millennials different is they have no one really to turn to for guidance.

#12 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-01-15 11:53 PM

"The description of the incident portrayed an extended period of time with repeated, aggressive sexual advances that were stopped and, according to the woman involved, clearly labeled as unwanted."

When I read the Babe article I thought Ansari was never given any indication that his advances were unwanted.

The next day he texted:

"It was fun meeting you last night,"

She responded:

"Last night might've been fun for you, but it wasn't for me," she responded. "You ignored clear nonverbal cues; you kept going with advances. You had to have noticed I was uncomfortable."

He replied with:

"Clearly, I misread things in the moment and I'm truly sorry."

#13 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-16 12:14 AM

"And this Flanagan person is writing this up to make it all sound like the Invasion of Poland."

You got it after watching the Mahr interview....

#14 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-16 12:16 AM

"the signals we give -- yes or no, or maybe --
should be clear: the darkness around us is deep."

from "A Ritual to Read to Each Other" by William Stafford

I don't think Grace's "no" was clear, or at least not as clear as it should have been. Her words and actions seemed to say yes, no and maybe. Aziz should have been more in tune to that fact that mixed messages don't constitute a yes, but I think Grace, and those supporting her, are deluding themselves if they think mixed verbal and nonverbal cues constitute a firm no. They don't. Yes, Aziz wanted to have sex, in a way that comes across as crude and determined, but that was clear at the outset, which is when Grace should have nipped the sexual encounter in the bud if what she wanted was sensitivity and romance. She says she was in shock because Aziz wasn't the person she thought he'd be based on his media persona, but the truth is she didn't know him anymore than he knew her. He seemed be make a few assumptions as to the type of person she was as well. It made me wonder if he didn't adhere to Trump's infamous dictum: "When you're famous, they let you do it." Ultimately, I think they are both responsible for the interaction between them, and because of that, I wouldn't call this an assault. I get that Grace felt disappointed and manhandled, and I'm sorry about that.

#15 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-16 01:34 AM

"And I'm half expecting that accusation to be leveled by the SJW crowd."

Will there be a dopamine rush, when your bias is reinforced?

Do you think I got one, when I posted this?

Well, do you, punk?

#16 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-01-16 01:40 AM

You got it after watching the Mahr interview....

#14 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNE

I understood what Flanagan was getting at after I listened to her in the Maher interview. If you don't like or think much of Bill Maher, okay with me, but I was listening to Flanagan the who time. What threw me off Flanagan's headline (probably written by an editor and not her) and reading the snippets in a random fashion between the Atlantic link and the NYT link.

My google news feed is now showing negative fallout aimed at the #MeToo movement due to the hit piece in Babe.net.

I hope the #MeToo movement doesn't collapse -- through out history women have always got the short end of the stick, and we're all better off with women taking leadership roles everywhere and the #MeToo movement helps make all that happen.

#17 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-01-16 07:05 AM

You are bringing to much bias into your reading maybe?

#18 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-16 09:53 AM

You are bringing to much bias into your reading maybe?

#18 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

Nope, more like context is everything and the video helped.

Also, I'm distracted = fantasy baseball draft prep

#19 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-01-16 10:11 AM

Lesson for men here. Don't date crazy women. That lady has a screw loose.

"I hope the #MeToo movement doesn't collapse -- through out history women have always got the short end of the stick, and we're all better off with women taking leadership roles everywhere and the #MeToo movement helps make all that happen."

Don't be so sure. It is likely that the movement is overstepping and becoming McCarthyism, when careers can be destroyed with just a few accusations, not even verified or accompanied by criminal charges, we are creating a deep mistrust between genders. Why would a man expose himself to accusations for just going on a date with a woman?

#20 | Posted by danni at 2018-01-16 10:23 AM

No fan of Aziz here, but it's almost like women have some kind of special privilege. No sense of personal agency or accountability for their actions. It's as if events just happen to them without any responsibility.

The women I know are not like this, is this a millennial thing.

Could you imagine Hillary doing something she didn't want to do and then complaining about it later?

#millenials #snowflake

#21 | Posted by visitor_ at 2018-01-16 10:39 AM

AC/DC--"She's Got You by the Balls"

#22 | Posted by madscientist at 2018-01-16 10:43 AM

I think Aziz was also somewhat confused when, on a first date, in this day and age a woman consents to accompany a male to his apartment this may led to him certain expectations. That said, if this is the worse date she has ever had, one has to wonder...... personally, I just think she wants her 15 minutes.

#23 | Posted by MSgt at 2018-01-16 07:52 PM

Watch the video:

HLN Host Slams Aziz Ansari Accuser: ‘You Did Not Get Up and Leave'

HLN anchor Ashley Banfield has slammed the 23-year-old woman who accused Master of None star Aziz Ansari of sexual misconduct.

www.usmagazine.com

#24 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 09:00 AM

Another interesting take and worth a read:

not that bad

Grace's story is common. It's so common that I don't have to imagine it because I remember it. I laugh about it without smiling. It's the story of so much bad sex. And when I hear that bad sex described as a sexual assault, it forces me to reexamine my own history. And see, I just started feeling strong again.

You have to understand that many women approach humiliating and uncomfortable sex from a place of "it's not that bad."

Ansari's behavior, as it is described in the article, is ------- awful and ordinary. So many men learn how to perform sex by watching porn, itself a performance of sex that for the most part treats women like props.

www.katykatikate.com

#25 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 09:07 AM

Also from the above "not that bad" article:

Women have already taken enough of a painful personal inventory to be able to say #metoo; I am not eager to go back over what I've come to comfortably accept as "crappy hookups," or "------ sex," and come to realize that yes, that was sexual assault too.

And yes, guys, what Grace described is totally normal for a woman. This is a normal sex encounter. The women that you're seeing scoff at her? They aren't scoffing because they think a guy would never do that. They're scoffing because they believe every single word she said. They don't have to imagine it either.

This is a common, normal hookup. A ------, painful hookup where Grace's comfort and pleasure were like #7 on the priority list. Mean, punishing sex is normal. And awful. Our normal is awful.

#26 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 09:13 AM

Is this okay? Is this okay? Is this okay? Is this okay? Are you okay? Is this okay? Are you sure? Are you really sure? I didn't hear the enthusiasm in the second-to-last one, but the last one was a little more enthusiastic. Is this okay? Are you just saying that it's okay? Are you saying that it's okay but are not really enthusiastic?

#27 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-17 10:09 AM

When women want to get intimate, they'll let you know. Just wait for your girlfriend/date/wife to get nekkid first. All this shticklech can be avoided.

#28 | Posted by madscientist at 2018-01-17 10:15 AM

WARNING: Intentional and unintentional puns may follow...

If the #metoo movement crosses the line of calling out sexual assault into character assassination, I'm okay with that. Hear me out. Women have been getting the short end of the sex stick for a long time. Feeling powerless to say no, without a voice for too long, women have been used by society as items of objectification. Starting with Hollywood, continuing with commercial advertising, and on into locker room talk betwixt the boys. #MeToo has been blowing full steam ahead, wrecking havoc on every segment of society by calling out sexual misconduct, assault, and flat out rape. So if on the way to finding their voice the #metoo movement doesn't put the brakes on soon enough to keep from crossing the line from distinguishing creeps from criminals, they have earned that leeway. Crush the line between bad bedside manners and criminality. Overstep that line, force some push back from men. Make men feel weak and powerless to stop your onslaught. When you finally feel the push back from men screaming out their safe word, then let's have an open discussion about what is appropriate sexual conduct. Tell women they have the power over their body and they have the right to say no. But also teach responsibility that comes with that power and how to stay safe. Train men to ask for permission and not assume 'she wanted it'. It's empowering for a woman AND a man to know, good sex or bad sex, you both were consenting. So go on with your bad self #metoo, crush some blue balls. When you've gone too far we'll let you know....and now that you have. I forgive you. Let's talk.

#29 | Posted by gavaster at 2018-01-17 10:38 AM

A lot of women are very self-absorbed. Yes... sometimes you have bad sex. Sometimes you have bad dates. You know what? It happens to guys too. Girls have it hard. But so do guys.

I joke with women that "no" just means "I haven't had enough to drink yet", and you know what? SOMETIMES IT IS TRUE. This is the real problem.

I have seen a lot of times where the only line between it being "sexual assault" or not is if she finds you attractive or not. How do you know if she finds you attractive? You will know when she rejects you or calls the police.

So, it comes down to a gamble. Should he roll the dice? Either he will look creepy and she will feel "sexually assaulted" or will end up having a amazing night with an attractive girl. The "nice guys" who err on the "don't take the gamble" side just end up not having sex. That is why all you meet is the guys who you feel are --------. Because the system that you propagate weeds out all of the nice ones.

BTW... not saying that real sexual assault does not happen. But, like others have said, BS like this and what happened to Al Franken hurts the movement. Stop focusing just on yourself and your ------ experiences, and try to have a little empathy for the person on the other side of the issue.

#30 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2018-01-17 10:45 AM

A person that doesn't say no because they don't want to be thought impolite is not an adult. Women are not children and men shouldn't have to treat them as such.

#31 | Posted by visitor_ at 2018-01-17 10:48 AM

#24

Full video.

www.tmz.com

#32 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-17 10:52 AM

Man, there is a lot of judgements being made on this encounter without hearing both sides of the story (in detail). All we got from Ansari was a brief response. At the worst we have Ansari receiving mixed signals, she willingly kissed him, performed oral sex (twice), got naked and didn't leave. From that scenario it is clear BOTH sides should have acted better. Ansari should have been more attentive to her feelings, attempted to understand where she was coming from, perhaps taken it slower. Grace should have been clearer is what she wanted, not expecting Ansari to know what she wants. People have sex on first dates, that is a matter of fact. On first dates, you don't know your partner or what they are into. Grace could have verbalized her wishes. Ansaris seems like a douche but I also feel like if he perceived what she wanted he would have been cool with it.

#33 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-01-17 10:52 AM

#29 | POSTED BY GAVASTER

So... basically your argument is that males, on average, have oppressed women in the past, so you should be able to punish any male who makes a mis-step or mistake now.

Similar to how, on average, black males are more likely to commit crimes, so police should be able to profile any individual (regardless of whether they have committed a crime in the past) and pull them over if they see ANYTHING out of the ordinary (like a tail-light out)?

I do not like stereotyping in ANY form. It is collective punishment. You should judge an individual BASED ON THE INDIVIDUAL'S ACTIONS. Not based upon the race, religion, gender, etc that they belong to.

I have been a strong proponent of the #MeToo movement so far. We need to overturn the cultural norms that allow people to use power to extort sex. But if this is where it is going, count me out. It is not worth destroying good people's lives and reputations just so women can get their pound of flesh. I will support improving society. But I will fight tooth and nail, and help kill the #MeToo movement, if it continues to be about revenge.

#34 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2018-01-17 10:53 AM

#33 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

We don't need to hear both sides. We don't need to hear any side. By all accounts this was a consensual encounter between adults. For christs sake, apparently he apologized the next day when she told him she did not enjoy the experience. Was it a bad date for her? Yes. Might he just be bad at dates and sex? Entirely possible.

The real question then is... Is it appropriate for her to try to publicly shame him into being better at dates and sex?

#35 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2018-01-17 10:58 AM

@35 100% correct. I was just stating that people shouldn't pass judgement on one side of the story.

#36 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-01-17 10:59 AM

"Man, there is a lot of judgements being made on this encounter without hearing both sides of the story (in detail)."

One of the mantras of the #MeToo movement is: we must believe the women. I understand why they say that as so many women's stories of harassment (and worse) have been dismissed outright as she's lying, she's crazy, etc. But maintaining we must all believe the woman can and does become a slippery slope. By all means Aziz should tell his side of the story if he wants to, but then we are likely to end up at another familiar place, the he said/she said juncture.

#37 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 11:03 AM

When women want to get intimate, they'll let you know. Just wait for your girlfriend/date/wife to get nekkid first. All this shticklech can be avoided.

#28 | POSTED BY MADSCIENTIST

Yes, the thing I've learned since getting divorced a few years ago is that women in my age range (mid thirties) are largely not the game playing, demur, catch me if you can BS artists like girls in their late teens and early 20s. It's a much clearer, far better communicated interaction, probably because of the experience accrued in successful interpersonal interactions and a willingness to be open and confident.

That's why when I read "consent is only consent if it is affirmative, active, continuous and -- and this is the word most used -- enthusiastic" I had to laugh a little bit. My experiences in my younger days were such that "enthusiastic" was usually a characteristic of the girls that horny late teen guys dreamed about, the types of girls who threw themselves at men and had a name that I can't use without getting in trouble with the blog God.

So essentially, millenial women are demanding a level of maturity and experience from men who simply don't have it while refusing to show any of it themselves (ie Grace should have had the maturity to leave once she was uncomfortable). It seems, to me, to be the exact opposite of what feminists of the past have fought for with women's empowerment.

Sorry for the unintentionally rambling post. This story has many interesting facets to it.

#38 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-17 11:04 AM

Train men to ask for permission and not assume 'she wanted it'.

Train men? What, with bacon treats?

Confident sex is something gained through experience. How can one answer the question "What do you like?" if you haven't actually tried things?

That inherently means there is going to be awkward, awful sex along the way.

Calling those normal experiences "sexual misconduct" is going too far and no, it's not OK. Hence why you have women who have actually suffered through real misconduct speaking out forcefully against this story.

#39 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-17 11:09 AM

#34 | POSTED BY GTBS

*nyeeeeaarrrrRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrummm*

We had to have a #MeToo movement. Let that sink in for a minute. Systemic suppression and abuse of woman across all segments of society. Expecting rationality when volatile suppressed emotions are being released is not logical. I expected this to happen. In fact, many people were waiting for the movement to go too far. Understandably so. Read the last two lines of my post.

#40 | Posted by gavaster at 2018-01-17 11:10 AM

Expecting rationality when volatile suppressed emotions are being released is not logical.

So what's your explanation for the overstep coming from a 23 year old and the reaction coming from 40+ women who've experienced "systemic oppression and abuse" for as long as the overstepper has been alive?

#41 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-17 11:19 AM

#39 | JPW

Let me preface with "If her story is 100% accurate retelling of what happened"...

Ansari is 34. We're a bit past the awkward phase don't you think? Society has done a piss poor job with sex education, from my experience, and has not educated men and women on the etiquette of sexual encounters.

Also, I said women need to be taught the responsibility that comes with the power of saying who can touch their body. It's both sides that need a re-education.

#42 | Posted by gavaster at 2018-01-17 11:19 AM

There is an old saying, "We teach people how to treat us." I might modify that to, "We allow people to treat us certain ways" (assuming we're not talking about sexual assault). Basically, Aziz treated Grace the way he did because she allowed him to. If she wanted him to stop, she should have made that clear by her actions and words. I don't think she really wanted him to stop, I think she wanted him to proceed but differently. If she had been able to articulate what she wanted, he may have complied but maybe not.

#43 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 11:26 AM

#41 | JPW

She got caught up in the movement and thought, incorrectly, she was a victim. As I said, it went too far. But over stepping over the line is a great way to bring clarity to where the line truly should be. Yeah, there's going to be some innocents caught up in the movement. There are probably some innocent executives without jobs who were accused of actual assault that never happened. We're human. We make mistakes. It's expected. Now, let's set it right.

#44 | Posted by gavaster at 2018-01-17 11:30 AM

Ansari is 34. We're a bit past the awkward phase don't you think?

Without a doubt.

But his going out on a date with a 23 year old should have clued one in as to his immature state of mind.

I'm 36. The last thing I would do is go on a date with a 23 year old. Not only would I feel like a dirty old man but I also, because of my job, interact with women about that age fairly regularly and would probably shove pencils through my ear drums if I had to "converse" over an entire dinner alone with them.

Society has done a piss poor job with sex education, from my experience, and has not educated men and women on the etiquette of sexual encounters.

Reading the description of what he did all I could think was "he learned how to have sex from free online porn". So it's not just a lack of education, it also the presence of a very negative influence to fill that vacuum.

Also, I said women need to be taught the responsibility that comes with the power of saying who can touch their body.

This is what I was getting at with my comment about feminists of the past in my post above.

I understood empowerment to mean the ability to initiate or terminate a sexual encounter at will. The ability to have sexual wants and needs and not be judged for it. The right to work for the same pay, equal consideration for positions and promotions and to do so without harassment or denigration. It was an active process on the woman's part.

The current story seems to flip all that on its head and turn it into a more passive process but where the woman has recourse through public condemnation as a means of stopping behavior or changing norms.

#45 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-17 11:30 AM

"would probably shove pencils through my ear drums if I had to "converse" over an entire dinner "

Bingo.

"Vapid" doesn't begin to describe.

#46 | Posted by Danforth at 2018-01-17 11:32 AM

Honestly Gal, that is a dangerous thought process to take. Very close to victim blaming. Intersexual relationships are a minefield and something society I think, is finally coming to grips with in a serious way. It has to be understood that it is far easier to say that people allow what they want, but so many pressures come into play it is rash to judge someone for permitting something to happen. This type of attitude, while maybe not even wrong, will play havoc on victims who feel guilty that something happened, like they allowed it to happen. Sexual relations are incredibly complicated and it is impossible to put a one sized fix on them. Some women want an aggressive partner, some want a passive partner, some men want sexually aggressive women, some want sexually passive women. The power dynamics are all part of the sexual excitement. One thing that will help is better communication both on a societal level and on an individual basis. While it is important and a great thing to bring cockroaches like Weinstein and Spacey into the light, it is also a good thing to have this discussion over things that are closer to harassment and assault, so that all people can interact in a better manner. We will learn what our mistakes are and learn how to interact better.

#47 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-01-17 11:36 AM

#45 JPW

haha! Have you seen Ansari? I had just watched a "Comedians In Cars Getting Coffee" with Jerry Seinfeld episode featuring Aziz before this came out. He seems awkward as ****. But he is 34, he is world famous, and he wrote a book on Modern Romance. I would expect someone like him to have a clue, which makes her story all the more unbelievable as reported.

Also, he brushed her off until she pointed out they were using the same camera at the party. He opened up to her, it seems, because he thought they had common interest in photography. Connecting on a passion would have given them something to talk endlessly about and possibly transcended the age gap. Like I said, he seems awkward and reclusive. But she pursued him.

#48 | Posted by gavaster at 2018-01-17 11:43 AM

BTW let's now condemn all porn! There are MANY types of porn and I have become a great lover of -----, ------- and an expert on ------ and ---- -------- sex from watching porn.

#49 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-01-17 11:45 AM

#49 | Truthhurts

lol There is a great case being made for the ultra religiously conservative no touching until marriage concept. Just avoid that puppy all together. Just say no to any and all sexual activity until marriage. That'll solve things. ha!

#50 | Posted by gavaster at 2018-01-17 11:53 AM

and an expert on Braces and Body Stocking sex from watching porn.

#49 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS AT 2018-01-17 11:45 AM | FLAG: BEYOND CREEPY

#51 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2018-01-17 11:56 AM

"Pressures come into play it is rash to judge someone for permitting something to happen. This type of attitude, while maybe not even wrong, will play havoc on victims who feel guilty that something happened, like they allowed it to happen."

I know what you are saying, TH, and I have no desire to lay a guilt trip on Grace. I do think it is important, however, for women (and men) to look inward after such encounters and ask themselves, "How did I contribute to what happened? What could I do differently next time around?" It's not about blaming anyone but wanting to empower them. As long as Grace continues to blame men ("I hate men" and "You guys are all the same, you guys are all the ------- same.") without looking at her own motivations and actions she is likely keep hating men and believing they are all the same. Grace feels betrayed by Aziz in particular and men in general, and I don't fault her for drawing that conclusion based on her experiences, but unless she take an honest look at her own intentions and behavior to see how she contributed to the interactions she had with Aziz (and those other hated men before him), I fear she is doomed to repeat the cycle.

#52 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 11:58 AM

"This type of attitude, while maybe not even wrong, will play havoc on victims who feel guilty that something happened, like they allowed it to happen....We will learn what our mistakes are and learn how to interact better."

Well, since we aren't talking about harassment or assault, didn't Grace allow what happened to happen? All I'm suggesting is that by blaming Aziz (and all men), Grace is missing out on the opportunity to identify her own "mistakes" while she is at the same time demonizing what she sees as Aziz's "mistakes" and labeling his advances as an assault. I think the best way to look at what happened between them is to see it as a series of miscommunications, misunderstandings, assumptions and mistakes. Mistakes happen, especially in the realm of sex and relationships between the sexes.

#53 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 12:09 PM

"I think the best way to look at what happened between them is to see it as a series of miscommunications, misunderstandings, assumptions and mistakes."

The biggest mistake that I can see that each made is that she assumed she was clearly saying no and he got that, and he assumed, despite her mixed signals, she was really into it.

#54 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 12:13 PM

If you can't speak for yourself and understand your own feelings about your body then you're not ready to go on a date.

My kids started hearing when they were 3 years old that only the doctor can examine their body and mom and dad to wash. Additionally, they are told that they are the boys of themselves and nobody can tell them what to do.

This woman does not have the social skills to date.

#55 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-17 12:49 PM

They are the boss* of themselves

#56 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-17 01:34 PM

This is the Time to make money, tell a story and get money from FAKE CNN FAKE NBC FAKE CBS FAKE WSJ FAKE WP

WHO HAS THE MONEY, AIM AND SHOOT A STORY...HAVE TO CREATE A WEBSITE OF ALL BAD DATES AND DECIDE WHICH IS SEXUAL ASSAULT

#57 | Posted by material07310 at 2018-01-17 02:27 PM

she was really into it.
#54 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

Should a man assume a woman is not "really into it" even though she went down on him? Twice?

To me, that's a safe presumption that she's "really into it." But what do I know? This coming from a guy that dips breadsticks into his milkshake.

#58 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-01-17 03:39 PM

"This coming from a guy that dips breadsticks into his milkshake." - #58 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-01-17 03:39 PM

Kinky.

Is that something you learned from the Karma Sutra?

#59 | Posted by Hans at 2018-01-17 03:44 PM

HLN Host Slams Aziz Ansari Accuser: ‘You Did Not Get Up and Leave'
HLN anchor Ashley Banfield has slammed the 23-year-old woman who accused Master of None star Aziz Ansari of sexual misconduct.

I thought the article I linked to posted the whole video and didn't realize it didn't. JPW posted the full video in in #32. Here it is again for anyone how missed it:

www.youtube.com

#60 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 03:46 PM

When ever i see an article related to this situation Jack Nicholson in As Good as it gets pops in my head.

Receptionist: How do you write women so well?

Melvin Udall: I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.

#61 | Posted by Alaskan_Guy at 2018-01-17 03:52 PM

#58 She also said "I don't want to feel forced because then I'll hate you, and I'd rather not hate you" which aren't exactly the words of an enthusiastic participant. But I agree she repeatedly sent mixed signals, which is something she doesn't seem to acknowledge or understand.

#62 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 03:53 PM

Wait, the word Granny was censored?? Braces too? Wow I am in some unchartered territory here!

For the record Rcade Im kidding.

#63 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-01-17 03:54 PM

#58 She also said "I don't want to feel forced because then I'll hate you, and I'd rather not hate you" which aren't exactly the words of an enthusiastic participant. But I agree she repeatedly sent mixed signals, which is something she doesn't seem to acknowledge or understand.

#62 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

Yeah, there are certain parts of her account that are rather gut-wrenching and I'm sure she was confused and caught off-guard. Also, I get that at the age of 23 she's pretty young, but she's not SO young that she should be sending mixed signals. Again, by her account, he was WAY too aggressive and presumptuous IMO. I am not even remotely like that with my wife and we've been married for 21 years (plus 6 combined years of courtship and engagement prior to marrying).

#64 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-01-17 04:05 PM

Jeff, yeah, her account of her actions does demonstrate her confusion:

Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was. "Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points," she said. "I stopped moving my lips and turned cold."

Whether Ansari didn't notice Grace's reticence or knowingly ignored it is impossible for her to say. "I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn't interested. I don't think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored."

The problem, as I see it, is that she was also giving off clues that she was interested (both giving and receiving oral sex, e.g.) Now, I think a woman does have the right to change her mind after a sexual encounter has started and has the right to say no, but her "no" needs to be clear, not merely pulling away and mumbling. As you say, she is young, but not so young that she couldn't have been clear even if he was being aggressive and presumptuous, as you also point out.

#65 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 04:26 PM

umm ok things are getting more interesting

the reporter from babe.com emailed Ashleigh Banfield

www.msn.com

women can be very vicious

what is that expression? A man fights with a man, he gets a black eye. A woman fights with a woman she gets an eating disorder.

#66 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-01-17 04:31 PM

My tummy hurts. I think dinner made me sick. I better go home

Or

I have an early meeting and my notes are at home. I can't stay out late.

#67 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-17 04:32 PM

Or

I am not into having sex tonight, lets stop and do something else.

#68 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-01-17 04:32 PM

The problem, as I see it, is that she was also giving off clues that she was interested (both giving and receiving oral sex, e.g.)

Yes. That is the part where I feel some sympathy for this guy. Of course she has the right to change her mind but given the mixed signals she was sending he may have felt she was toying with him a bit, playing hard-to-get. Obviously, if that's what he believed he was wrong, but when a woman gets undressed and performs oral sex that sends a pretty strong signal.

The part of her story where any sympathy I had for her vanished was when they had gotten dressed, were watching Seinfeld and he started kissing her again. That was the opportunity to be perfectly clear that she wasn't interested physically - they had gotten dressed and he clearly wasn't being coercive given that when she finally said it felt forced and she didn't want it to be that way.

#69 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-01-17 04:34 PM

Or

No. Stop. We need to pause.

#70 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-17 04:36 PM

How about the old standby, "Not tonight, dear (date), I have a headache." Kids, these days, no sense at all!

#71 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 04:47 PM

#30 | Posted by gtbritishskull I think is spot on. I think JPW is too.

Look - Sexual Assault is VERY real and VERY common - far too common and ---- like this just takes away from true assault. As so many said this sounds like very simply a bad date that didn't go the way she romanticized in her head and he may have been a bit of a cad. This ---- just walks back everything that was exposed by #MeToo and it did finally bring down some people that ARE TRUE PREDATORS. This story is such utter BS it should have never been published.

Was she a child or a woman? She should have VERBALIZED and/or LEFT if she wasn't "comfortable" THEN she has half a leg to stand on if something more happened. What was she doing going to a guys place on the first date and then doing everything that happened? The crap about "positive affirmation" to proceed makes me glad I am not in the dating world. Talk about ruining a moment. As for "non-verbal cues" - there are non-verbal cues and then there are non-verbal cues. Here is the bottom line - based on the texting he CLEARLY didn't see anything negative happened.

As I am writing this, I am reminded of something an HR speaker said about Millennials a couple years ago. I have to think it applies to the Gen Z as well. They ARE immature. Their social development is stunted and about 10 years behind the previous generation. I agree with that based on my direct group at work is ALL Millennials and Gen Z - I am the old man by far (I hear you JPW...) If you apply that here, it goes a long way to understanding both this article and the mentality of the woman in it.

#72 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2018-01-17 04:47 PM

"women can be very vicious"

Oh, yeah, sisters be bitches. Earlier this week Bruce posted an article by Margaret Atwood: "Am I a Bad Feminist?" about the sh$t she's been getting from some other feminists who have now decided she's a bad one because she weighed in on what they consider the wrong side of a recent #metoo case in Canada:

www.drudge.com

#73 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 04:53 PM

"I have to think it applies to the Gen Z as well. They ARE immature. Their social development is stunted and about 10 years behind the previous generation."

I don't know about that. Maybe. Sex is confusing, especially when you are young. I was young and naïve about sex when I was 18. I had wised up some by 23 but still not as much as would have been good for me.

#74 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 04:58 PM

I had wised up some by 23 but still not as much as would have been good for me.
#74 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday

When I was 23 I thought a mullet was a good look, so there is that.

#75 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-01-17 05:11 PM

Read the [whole] email the writer behind the Aziz Ansari sexual misconduct story wrote slamming an HLN anchor who criticized her

www.businessinsider.com

#76 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 05:15 PM

My maturity in sex didn't evolve until 26.

I wasn't in a real close relationship until then. I simply didn't care enough to be better at it until then.

#77 | Posted by eberly at 2018-01-17 05:17 PM

#76 wow that "reporter" sounds like a real winner.

I'm gonna laugh my ass of when she gets canned and plays the victim.

#78 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-17 05:54 PM

We're witnessing the slut-shaming of men? He's dirty for trying to hook up?

#79 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-17 06:22 PM

= When I was 23 I thought a mullet was a good look, so there is that.

What's wrong with my mullet?!- Sniper

#80 | Posted by Corky at 2018-01-17 06:26 PM

I'm sorry. But what in the world ever happened to common sense?

#81 | Posted by moder8 at 2018-01-17 06:57 PM

that sends a pretty strong signal.

A pretty "enthusiastic" one if you ask me. I've met women who are very upfront that they refuse to "do anything like that" both giving and receiving.

The logical, nonverbal next step would be intercourse, IMO. If she felt otherwise, the onus was on her to express that explicitly, not in code.

#82 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-01-17 07:00 PM

When I was 23 I thought a mullet was a good look, so there is that.
#75 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

The entirety of the mid-West felt the same circa 1987, so don't feel so bad.

#83 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-01-17 07:02 PM

what in the world ever happened to common sense?
#81 | POSTED BY MODER8

Never existed; was a fallacy the entire time.

#84 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-01-17 07:03 PM

Here's a picture of Katie before a recent TV appearance, looking very pleased with herself:

Katie Way @k80way

Catch me on @CBSThisMorning brrright and early tomorrow morning, can't wait for America to hear my weird low voice

twitter.com

My favorite comment in the thread:

Kevin‏ @GetOffMyLawnPod

Replying to @k80way @CBSThisMorning
I'm sure you faced a lot of "mansplaining" this week. I won't add to that. I will suggest that you keep a copy of the email you sent to HLN and look at it again in 20 years. I'll bet you will feel differently about your words after some life experience.

#85 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 07:08 PM

#85 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

She looks like a kid and sounds like one (via email) to boot.

#86 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-01-17 07:20 PM

Aziz Ansari Is Guilty. Of Not Being a Mind Reader.

www.nytimes.com

#87 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 07:22 PM

--But what in the world ever happened to common sense?

SJW and Third-wave feminism.

#88 | Posted by nullifidian at 2018-01-17 07:23 PM

Let's be honest about Aziz Ansari

edition.cnn.com

#89 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-17 07:24 PM

What speaks volumes is his message the next day.

She never gave him the message. He thought it was a good night.

#90 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-17 09:20 PM

I'm sorry. But what in the world ever happened to common sense?

#81 | POSTED BY MODER8

It is increasingly hard to find.

#91 | Posted by JeffJ at 2018-01-17 09:20 PM

A quick check of my google news feed shows this story is still going strong.

A few quick thoughts ...

"Here's all you have to know about men and women: women are crazy, men are stupid. And the main reason women are crazy is that men are stupid."
-- George Carlin

"Sex is both the greatest thing ever, and the most overrated thing ever"
-- Big Daddy PinchALoaf

The best line I've seen so far was from a woman in a comments section say "call me old fashioned, but I remember a time when two -------- during a date meant consent".

**goes back to fantasy baseball draft prep**

#92 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2018-01-18 07:02 AM

Ansaris seems like a douche

Truth,

I noticed you are quick to disparage the man, but never the woman. I think this woman was a douche in this whole situation. Why dont you?

#93 | Posted by boaz at 2018-01-18 09:07 AM

@93, well you obviously can't read and understand what is written.

"From that scenario it is clear BOTH sides should have acted better"

See I am criticizing both man and woman in the situation.

Ansari was a douche for not being more sensitive to her "signals"

Grace was a douche for turning a bad date into something worse.

The author Katie Way is a big douche for her reporting and email to Ashleigh Banfield.

#94 | Posted by truthhurts at 2018-01-18 09:39 AM

Maybe I've been married too long, but what kind of nonverbal cues does one give off while performing back to back bjs?

#95 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-18 09:50 AM

"Grace" was not working for Ansari or looking for a job from him. He gave her white wine at his apartment; she tells Babe writer Katie Way that she would have preferred red. She could have told him that. She didn't, then blamed him. She could have said she didn't want to go home with him. She didn't, then blamed him. She could have left his house at any point. She didn't, then blamed him.
It sounds from "Grace's" words as though they each had different expectations of the date: he, that they would have sex, she, that she might date a celebrity. Her horror appears to have stemmed from disillusionment at their differing agendas.

This is all a point of view thing. She makes all the "young" mistakes all women make. Women assume we should be reading them. Women assume we are picking up on their unspoken "cues". It took me a while to train my wife to understand, I'm not that nuanced. And I'm assuming Ansari isnt either. Men and women are different and all this gender mixing up and making a genderless person is killing our culture. Maybe in "graci's" world of liberals, the beta men would have picked up on her cues. But in the world of real men and women, such things just dont exist.

#96 | Posted by boaz at 2018-01-18 09:53 AM

God damn boaz. Do you try to stack your posts to the brim with BS or does it just happen?

#97 | Posted by jpw at 2018-01-18 11:22 AM

The important take-away here is to not date crazy women. How to detect a crazy woman? You can't, not on the first date. Frank Zappa sang about this in "Find Her Finer."

www.youtube.com

#98 | Posted by john47 at 2018-01-18 11:37 AM

If Ansari was a college student he'd have been expelled for rape. A second drink to loosen her up to give her the claw? Rape.

#99 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2018-01-18 01:13 PM

"what kind of nonverbal cues does one give off while performing back to back bjs?"

Teeth.

#100 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-01-18 01:18 PM

#100 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

*shudder*

#101 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2018-01-18 01:42 PM

Liberal=always someone else's fault.

Have women taken the word "no" out of their vocabulary.

#102 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-01-18 03:55 PM

Boaz,

Women our generation knew to avoid some situations.

Whatever happened to good ole common sense?

Alone his apt drinking and he is rich and famous.

Foolish girl.

#103 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-01-18 04:01 PM

The View Defends Aziz Ansari: ‘Whatever Happened to Stop or I'm Going to Knock You in Your Nuts?'

www.mediaite.com

#104 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-18 04:21 PM

Samantha Bee Says What Everyone Should Be Saying About Aziz Ansari and the #MeToo Backlash -- Watch

"We know the difference between a rapist, a workplace harasser, and an Aziz Ansari," said Bee. "That doesn't mean we have to be happy about any of them."

www.indiewire.com

#105 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2018-01-18 04:30 PM

Samantha Bee is living on what planet?

#106 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-18 04:49 PM

Smug secular southerner learns a hard lesson.

#107 | Posted by Tor at 2018-01-18 05:33 PM

"That doesn't mean we have to be happy about any of them."

That also DOESNT mean they all must be equated and perceived on the same level. The more this story perpetuates feminist reactions like this, the more likely #metoo will collapse upon itself. What a shame.

Ironic it's takimg place at the behest of Aziz, one of the least known celebrities out there.

#108 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-01-18 06:12 PM

Men and women are different and all this gender mixing up and making a genderless person is killing our culture. Maybe in "graci's" world of liberals, the beta men would have picked up on her cues. But in the world of real men and women, such things just dont exist.

#96 | POSTED BY BOAZ

I agreed with you until this part. No, BOAZ. Grace was just a nut that wanted in on the publicity of #metoo. And the original author, aged 23, wanted to make a name for herself, which she did. Ultimately Blacklisting herself from MSM.

The push for a "genderless" society is NOT popular and not taking over American culture. You're Chicken Little perspective notwithstanding.

"Real men and women"? Really? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I pity you so.

#109 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-01-18 06:16 PM

Considering I never experienced the rituals of straight dating, I can only provide an objective opinion.

Personally, I think the female sex is fairly disingenuous.

Most of them really want to be considered virtuous so they must play "hard to get" or "oh no...I don't do that"....yea right.

And they guy knows.. sureeeeeee....

A game many females play is they must say "no no no" but are really setting up the guy.

She wants to feel wanted so she secretly is expecting him to pursue her more aggressively.

As an outsider, the straight dating world looks mildly crazy and schizophrenic.

I feel sorry you guys.

#110 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-01-18 07:07 PM

thank god im an expat. I live in a catholic country too so prostitution is legal. Of course ive got a great farm and a girlfriend so i dont go to the city but if i did i certainly wouldnt talk to white women from the states. you should see how they are on vacation like they dress like ----- but wear a spandex body suit so the latinos cant see any skin. who the ---- are you trying to fool? you like the attention of real men who whistle and have hot latin blood and look like pirates of the carribean with long hair and mustaches. Ill take the 15 dollar bj and go grow potatoes.

#111 | Posted by FTP at 2018-01-18 07:11 PM

#110 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

Interesting point. The #metoo movement is at risk of forcing men outside of the, seemingly, attractive bad-boy/tough guy persona who fear of making the wrong move on the wrong woman. Effeminate men are already on the rise; who's to say #metoo won't only exacerbate this trend to the overall detriment of women overall?

#112 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2018-01-18 07:25 PM

Rsty,

When you get down to it, both men and women want love and companionship.

Nature will overcome all our attempts to sabotage ourselves.

#113 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-01-18 08:04 PM

It's important that men learn how to communicate with women on the terms of women. The reverse is also true. We all have to try a little harder.

#114 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2018-01-18 08:09 PM

Bruce,

"It's important that men learn how to communicate with women on the terms of women."

Men will do whatever it takes to--------.

#115 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2018-01-18 08:11 PM

BillJohnson, you didn't date your wife before you got married?

#116 | Posted by snoofy at 2018-01-18 09:36 PM

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