Wednesday, November 29, 2017

The Republican War on College

Derek Thompson, The Atlantic: There are two big problems with the GOP's claim that its tax-reform proposals help the middle class. The first, and most obvious, is that both the House bill, which passed last week, and the Senate bill would raise taxes on tens of millions of middle-class and low-income households by the end of the decade, according to several analyses of the bills. The second reason is subtler, but perhaps equally significant. To pay for a permanent tax cut on corporations, the plan raises taxes on colleges and college students, which is part of a broader Republican war on higher education in the U.S. This is a big deal, because in the last half-century, the most important long-term driver of wage growth has arguably been college.

Comments

The Republican Party understands that higher education is not conducive to voting for Republicans so they are determined to destroy higher education for the majority of Americans and just import, well educated, HS1B visa employees to do the jobs where education is required but who will do their jobs as virtual indentured servants. The Republican "vision" for America comes into focus and it is far worse than any of us ever believed that other Americans would want for this nation. The Republican Party is an unAmerican organization determined to replace democracy with oligarchy. I honestly know some Republicans and I honestly believe they should acknowledge the evil their party represents today and desert it, I just can't respect any that don't. Too much evil there, just can't pretend any more that it is just the Republican Party of Eisenhower or even Reagan. This is a whole new version who supports a Russian puppet in the WH.

#1 | Posted by danni at 2017-11-29 08:41 AM

Education and the GOP cannot coexist.

#2 | Posted by 726 at 2017-11-29 09:23 AM

Educated voters are not GOP voters. This is just another way to stifle the vote.

"Education, Not Income, Predicted Who Would Vote For Trump"

fivethirtyeight.com

#3 | Posted by Corky at 2017-11-29 11:26 AM


From the cited article:

...Education is now a more significant dividing line in the electorate than income. According to a recent Fox News poll, non-college-educated whites still approve of the president by an 11 percentage-point margin (50 percent to 39 percent), while white college graduates disapprove by the same margin (56 percent to 45 percent). GOP voters are increasingly not only not college educated, but outright anticollege: 58 percent of Republicans now say that "colleges and universities have a negative effect on the way things are going in this country." Just 19 percent of Democrats agree.

For the white middle class, a turn against college is a profound historical irony. The GI Bill was more responsible than almost any other law in fashioning the 20th century's middle class. Many Trump voters feel left behind, or worry that their children will grow up poorer. It's extremely unlikely that these families will personally benefit from a large tax cut for General Electric and Apple. What they could use, instead, is some extra money today, plus an education system that prepares their kids for a new career, in a field that isn't in structural decline....


[emphasis mine]

#4 | Posted by LampLighter at 2017-11-29 11:39 AM


I have to ask the question --- how will a future United States be able to compete in the world of educated countries,after the GOP has made education so distasteful?

Is the GOP going to take nationalism to such an extreme that will will become as isolated as North Korea currently is?

Is that how we Make America Great Again?

#5 | Posted by LampLighter at 2017-11-29 11:42 AM

College makes people smarter.

Smarter people vote dem.

A dumber country helps the GOP win elections and cut taxes for the rich, their ultimate goal in every effort.

#6 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-11-29 11:45 AM

People won't volunteer to join the military and fight these forever wars if college is free.

#7 | Posted by qcp at 2017-11-29 12:02 PM

People won't volunteer to join the military and fight these forever wars if college is free.

#7 | POSTED BY QCP

I don't think most people join the army for free college.

And its sad if they join because they can't afford college otherwise. Sort of makes us a failure as a nation.

#8 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-11-29 12:10 PM

I don't think most people join the army for free college.
And its sad if they join because they can't afford college otherwise. Sort of makes us a failure as a nation.
#8 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT

I'm pretty sure after 4 years of Iraq, the only people joining were -----------, xenophobes, and the occasional "turning my life around" Marine type.

#9 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-11-29 12:34 PM

I have to ask the question --- how will a future United States be able to compete in the world of educated countries,after the GOP has made education so distasteful?

They don't care about the future. They only care about now.

#10 | Posted by 726 at 2017-11-29 12:39 PM

They don't care about the future. They only care about now.

#10 | Posted by 726

And they only care about themselves.

If they had any empathy, they wouldn't be republicans.

#11 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-11-29 02:07 PM

#6 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

I totally agree. College should get you out of the surroundings you were raised in and open your eyes to the "real world" or at least the rest of the world where not everyone is just like what you grew up with. What's actually tragic IMHO though is I know a lot of smart well educated people that voted Trump.

#12 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2017-11-29 02:51 PM

#8 | Posted by Sycophant

A LOT of people do join for that reason or at least they used to. Anymore though it seems they join in order to make a living.

#13 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2017-11-29 02:52 PM

To make it through college you have to be rooted in facts and critical thinking. Faith and Opinion wont get you through. When people learn how to think critically they do one of two things

Either they apply what they've learned to the real world and become liberals or they reject their education (Everything I learned was lies from the pit of hell - Paul Broun) and become conservatives

Colleges do not tend liberal because of some nefarious plot. They tend to be liberal because that's where the facts lead you.

Conservativism requires the dismissal of facts and evidence. It is built on ignoring what you see and believing what somebody else told you.

#14 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-11-29 03:11 PM

Either they apply what they've learned to the real world and become liberals or they reject their education (Everything I learned was lies from the pit of hell - Paul Broun) and become conservatives

My niece graduated Magna Cum Laude from Notre Dame. She's a conservative politically.

#15 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-11-29 03:16 PM

#15

Anecdote. Still not evidence.

see #3

#16 | Posted by Corky at 2017-11-29 03:19 PM

My niece graduated Magna Cum Laude from Notre Dame. She's a conservative politically.

#15 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2017-11-29 03:16 PM | REPLY |

She rejected her education.

#17 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-11-29 05:16 PM

My niece graduated Magna Cum Laude from Notre Dame. She's a conservative politically.

#15 | Posted by JeffJ

But I doubt she thinks climate change is a chinese hoax. She may be conservative politically, but that's far away from being part of trump's base, who are all mouth breathing morons.

#18 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-11-29 05:20 PM

I have to ask the question --- how will a future United States be able to compete in the world of educated countries,after the GOP has made education so distasteful?
#5 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER

Honestly it doesn't matter if the GOP has its way. Even if we're educated we will all be so damn busy shoveling coal while the rest of the world uses renewables that we won't have time to compete anyway.

#19 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-11-29 05:22 PM

"But I doubt she thinks climate change is a chinese hoax."

Oh, I wouldn't be at all surprised if her education has corrected that.

#20 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-29 05:41 PM

Everywhere you look -- taxes, healthcare, the environment, diplomacy, consumer protection, civility, you name it -- the country is going to hell with these clowns in power. I have never been so disgusted in my life.

#21 | Posted by cbob at 2017-11-29 06:26 PM

I was wondering where today's Drama Queen thread was...its a toss up between this one and the Russia Owns Trump thread.

Keep flappin in circles!

#22 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-11-29 06:58 PM

How quickly liberal forget.
It was Bill Clinton who signed a law disallowing college graduates to extinguish their student loans in bankruptcy.

Point being, the two parties are equally corrupt.

#23 | Posted by Ray at 2017-11-29 06:59 PM

#23 | POSTED BY RAY

What do finances have to do with the demonization of education. This is about college the education, not about colleges the individual institutions. While I don't agree with Clinton's law, you should try peddling a better false equivalency. Making college expensive isn't the same as senselessly claiming it will turn kids into gay communists. Try again, raymond.

#24 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-11-29 07:17 PM

I was wondering where today's Drama Queen thread was...its a toss up between this one and the Russia Owns Trump thread.

Keep flappin in circles!

#22 | Posted by Rightocenter

Yeah being concerned about our enemies controlling our president is for drama queens!

Real macho american men are just fine with it!

#25 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-11-29 07:21 PM

Among the my Republican co-workers the idea that there are to many kids going on to college is a common
one. Tech school is what many grads need according to them, except for their kids.

#26 | Posted by SLBronkowitz at 2017-11-29 09:26 PM

My niece graduated Magna Cum Laude from Notre Dame. She's a conservative politically.

#15 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Let me take a stab at this one.

A business or finance major?

#27 | Posted by jpw at 2017-11-29 10:55 PM

I was wondering where today's Drama Queen thread was...its a toss up between this one and the Russia Owns Trump thread.
Keep flappin in circles!

#22 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER

As per usual righties get it wrong.

When the said Obama was taking the US in the wrong direction towards a purposeful reshaping of it's fundamental nature they only said it because they were jealous that they weren't getting to reshape it into their f---ed up version.

Basically, righties have become predictable in that if they're saying something positive for average people they're lying and if they're critiquing the other side they're secretly (sometimes not so secretly) doing it themselves.

#28 | Posted by jpw at 2017-11-29 11:04 PM

My niece graduated Magna Cum Laude from Notre Dame. She's a conservative politically.

#15 | POSTED BY JEFFJ
----
Let me take a stab at this one.
A business or finance major?

#27 | POSTED BY JPW

You are a perceptive SOB.

Actuary.

#29 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-11-29 11:27 PM

#28

Nice run on sentences, parse them out and then we will get your point.

Breathe...

#30 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2017-11-29 11:33 PM

You are a perceptive SOB.
Actuary.

#29 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Ahhh so she set herself up to get hired for one of Obama's death panels?

#31 | Posted by jpw at 2017-11-29 11:37 PM

Nice run on sentences, parse them out and then we will get your point.
Breathe...

#30 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER

Oh c'mon. If there's been one good thing about Trump it's his forcing of America to learn to understand rambling, stream of thought speech.

Read it a few times more, I promise it's not that difficult to comprehend.

#32 | Posted by jpw at 2017-11-29 11:39 PM

"My niece graduated Magna Cum Laude from Notre Dame. She's a conservative politically."

I'm going out on a limb here but how much debt did she graduate with Jeff? I'm guessing zero. Nuf said.

#33 | Posted by danni at 2017-11-30 07:23 AM

Not sure, Danni.
I know that she is making a boatload of money as an actuary.

#34 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-11-30 07:44 AM

I know that she is making a boatload of money as an actuary.

#34 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

That's why. She needs a way to rationalize how she did it all herself and she should keep everything for herself.

Maybe not, but the rightie ideology is more or less centered around greed and selfishness so it's a pretty good guess I think.

#35 | Posted by jpw at 2017-11-30 10:13 AM

"Not sure, Danni.
I know that she is making a boatload of money as an actuary."

But you unnecessarily told us she is politically conservative. Student debt would probably significantly affect her political leanings. Those who graduate without debt, due to families that can support them through school are very fortunate but perhaps they should consider that the interest rates charged on other less fortunate students, which the federal government actually profits from, should be reduced to the levels paid by greedy bankers. Just a thought.
This is partially why it is called the "Republican War on College." They won't even consider reducing the interest rates students pay to the same levels many of them paid when they were students, much less to the free college many of them enjoyed if they were residents of California. America, the nation that pulls the ladder back up to deprive the next generation of the same advantages which enabled themselves to be successful.

#36 | Posted by danni at 2017-11-30 10:28 AM

Those who graduate without debt, due to families that can support them through school are very fortunate but perhaps they should consider that the interest rates charged on other less fortunate students, which the federal government actually profits from, should be reduced to the levels paid by greedy bankers. Just a thought.

Why would they do that? They earned everything themselves and don't owe the other students anything.

#37 | Posted by jpw at 2017-11-30 11:08 AM

So your daughter is making a lot of money using the skills she was taught at the liberal college and now she is using your ideology to help prevent other people from doing the same.

You must be so proud.

#38 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-11-30 11:20 AM

"GOP voters are increasingly not only not college educated, but outright anticollege"

That sums it up. Just like electing a pedophile to the Senate the only thing that matters to Rs is ideology. "Screw the country as long as long as we get elected." Sigh.

#39 | Posted by SomebodyElse at 2017-11-30 11:44 AM

This is partially why it is called the "Republican War on College." They won't even consider reducing the interest rates students pay to the same levels many of them paid when they were students, much less to the free college many of them enjoyed if they were residents of California. - #36 | Posted by Danni at 2017-11-30 10:28 AM
I know I'm replying to Danni, so you're almost certain to not read or understand this, but maybe others can be shown that you aren't being truthful with your remarks.
Doing a little research leads me to believe that you would be more upset if interest rates were as high as they were when 'they' were students.
1982-1992 was a fixed 8-10%apr
1992-93: (6.94%) variable max at 9%
1993-94: (6.22%)
1994-95: (7.43%)
1998-99: (7.46%)
(no 00 showing in the list)
2001-02: (5.99%)
2002-03: (4.06%)
2005-06: (5.3%)
2006-12: (6.8%) (Stafford loan a little lower at 6%)
2012-13: (5.46%)
2013-14: (3.86%)
2014-15: (4.66%)
2015-16: (4.29%)
Hell, the 2016-2017 student loan interest rates dropped to the lowest level (3.76%)
2017-18: (4.55%)
So 30+ years ago, when 'they' were getting student loans, the rates were significantly higher than today. Are you sure you want 'them' to consider 'reducing' the interest rates students pay to those same levels?
www.nerdwallet.com
www.forbes.com

#40 | Posted by Avigdore at 2017-11-30 12:03 PM

"So 30+ years ago, when 'they' were getting student loans, the rates were significantly higher than today."

And when rates lowered, they could consolidate and refinance, which they can't do today. Also, go back 10 more years, and the rate was 3%.

#41 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-11-30 12:08 PM

Also, go back 10 more years, and the rate was 3%. - #41 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-11-30 12:08 PM

(Non-snarky:) Got a citation for that?

when rates lowered, they could consolidate and refinance
Why would today's students need to consolidate and refinance to the lower rates enjoyed by the students of today? While you have made a true statement, it doesn't really provide any useful information, nor does it support either my position or Danni's.

#42 | Posted by Avigdore at 2017-11-30 12:36 PM

"Got a citation for that?"

That was MY rate.

"Why would today's students need to consolidate and refinance to the lower rates enjoyed by the students of today?"

Because they may be paying off higher-rate loans. "Consolidate" means there was more than one loan, and if the rates are lower today, that would mean the rates were higher yesterday.

"While you have made a true statement, it doesn't really provide any useful information, nor does it support either my position or Danni's."

Go back and take a math class.

#43 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-11-30 12:43 PM

You need a reading comprehension class perhaps. Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote:
"Why would today's students need to consolidate and refinance to the lower rates enjoyed by the students of today"

You made the claim that students with old loans could refinance their loans and the students of today couldn't. I stated that that was a true statement, but who cares if students of today (with historically low loan rates) couldn't refinance their (historically low apr) loans.

If students of today have higher-rate loans of yesterday, they certainly can refinance to the lower rates of today, which still reinforces my statement that you made a true, yet useless, statement about refinancing.

#44 | Posted by Avigdore at 2017-11-30 12:49 PM

Nice run on sentences, parse them out and then we will get your point.
Breathe...

#30 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER, RESPONDING TO TWO GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT SENTENCES | Flag: FUNNY

In all seriousness, the above is why the GOP war on college is such a problem. It breeds prideful ignorants.

#45 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2017-11-30 01:12 PM

Among the my Republican co-workers the idea that there are to many kids going on to college is a common
one. Tech school is what many grads need according to them, except for their kids.

#26 | Posted by SLBronkowitz

That's because repubs want the masses to be mindless workers, not informed intelligent humans. Mindless drones dont vote or they vote republican. Informed humans don't.

If you can keep someone ignorant about science, economics, and history, you can tell them conservatism works.

#46 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-11-30 01:16 PM

"Educated voters are not GOP voters. This is just another way to stifle the vote. "Education, Not Income, Predicted Who Would Vote For Trump"

I've said it before, but I think Trump won largely becaus he was able to harness the elusive "trailer par" vote. Voters who wouldn't normally entertain wasting a day standing in live did so in droves for a politician that they saw as one of their own. And in a way, he is. He was a tabloid personality for several decades before becoming a reality TV star.

Seriously...who esle were Honey Boo Boo fans going to vote for?

#47 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-30 04:59 PM

Candidate HRC had some interesting thoughts on expanding education opportunities for young people...an idea I've always thought had a lot of merit. Like offering blocks of schaolrships for qualified students in fields that are traditionally under-served-particularly in medicince and STEM. Provide them with tuituioin and a stipend in return for a set number of years of public service. Like an RTOC scholarhsip, but without having to do your time in the military.

#48 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-30 05:07 PM

Please quote ONE quote from a Republican stating their intention to destroy college education.

I call BS

#49 | Posted by boughtahonda at 2017-11-30 10:45 PM

The grad student changes are significant but it is consistent with how health insurance benefits are being taxed right now.

Could a liberal here at least acknowledge THAT?!

#50 | Posted by boughtahonda at 2017-11-30 10:49 PM

This is a sad consequence of socialized medicine (ACA). It will affect our students.

#51 | Posted by boughtahonda at 2017-11-30 10:52 PM

"Please quote ONE quote from a Republican stating their intention to destroy college education. "

Who needs a quote, when you have clear statements in their tax bills?

Lifetime Learning Credit goes away.
Tuition and Fees Deduction, eliminated.
Student Loan interest no longer deductible
Workers re-educating themselves is no longer deductible
Worker training just got disincentivized, compared to current law.
Teachers can no longer deduct the first $250 of school supplies they bring into the classroom.
-and-
A NEW tax has been created on University/College endowments.

What, specifically, were you waiting for?

#52 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-11-30 11:03 PM

"Why would today's students need to consolidate and refinance to the lower rates enjoyed by the students of today"

Because today's students could also be yesterday's students, with prior loans as well as current ones.

"I stated that that was a true statement, but who cares if students of today (with historically low loan rates) couldn't refinance their (historically low apr) loans."

Again, because some of those loans aren't at historically low rates. I referenced my own 3% loan, back in 1976-77 for the record. Is math your problem, or comprehension?

"If students of today have higher-rate loans of yesterday, they certainly can refinance to the lower rates of today,"

Not in some cases.
www.forbes.com

#53 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-12-01 01:30 AM

The grad student changes are significant but it is consistent with how health insurance benefits are being taxed right now.

How so?

And, logically, why would you lump those two together tax wise anyway?

#54 | Posted by jpw at 2017-12-01 01:46 AM

"How so?"

--Workers get health care, and its value isn't taxed, anywhere. Full-time single folks seem to average $5K-$6K, families average twice that much.
--Grad students regularly get tuition waived in return for TA or teaching work. Again, those numbers don't show up on a tax return.

Tax-free benefits in both cases, and both in return for work.

#55 | Posted by Danforth at 2017-12-01 02:09 AM

"Got a citation for that?"
That was MY rate.
"Why would today's students need to consolidate and refinance to the lower rates enjoyed by the students of today?"
Because they may be paying off higher-rate loans. "Consolidate" means there was more than one loan, and if the rates are lower today, that would mean the rates were higher yesterday.
"While you have made a true statement, it doesn't really provide any useful information, nor does it support either my position or Danni's."
Go back and take a math class.

#43 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2017-11-30 12:43 PM | FLAG:

I paid 3% interest on my student loans as well. Finally got them paid off about 10 years later. Plus, tuition was a lot lower then, proportionate to income -- in the good old days before my state (and many others) began drastic funding cuts.

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