Tuesday, November 28, 2017

NYT's Soft Profile of Nazi Causes Hard Feelings

Marc Lacey, New York Times: A profile in The Times of Tony Hovater, a white nationalist and Nazi sympathizer in Ohio, elicited a huge amount of feedback this weekend, most of it sharply critical. Here's how the piece came about, why we wrote it and why we think it was important to do so. Whatever our goal, a lot of readers found the story offensive, with many seizing on the idea we were normalizing neo-Nazi views and behavior. "How to normalize Nazis 101!" one reader wrote on Twitter. "I'm both shocked and disgusted by this article," wrote another. "Attempting to 'normalize' white supremacist groups -- should Never have been printed!"

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Some readers also criticized the article for including a link to a webpage that sells swastika armbands. This was intended to show the darker reality beyond the anodyne language of the website. But we saw the criticism, agreed and removed the link.

Some readers did see value in the piece. Shane Bauer, a senior reporter at Mother Jones and a winner of the National Magazine Award, tweeted: "People mad about this article want to believe that Nazis are monsters we cannot relate to. White supremacists are normal ass white people and it's been that way in America since 1776. We will continue to be in trouble till we understand that."

But far more were outraged by the article. "You know who had nice manners?" Bess Kalb, a writer for Jimmy Kimmel Live, said on Twitter. "The Nazi who shaved my uncle Willie's head before escorting him into a cement chamber where he locked eyes with children as their lungs filled with poison and they suffocated to death in agony. Too much? Exactly. That's how you write about Nazis."

Comments

NYT Accused Of Normalizing White Nationalism In 'Nazi Sympathizer' Profile

The profile follows Tony Hovater, a newlywed who loves "Seinfeld" and Panera Bread, and also believes the Holocaust was overblown.

www.huffingtonpost.com

#1 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2017-11-26 03:35 PM

Some readers did see value in the piece. Shane Bauer, a senior reporter at Mother Jones and a winner of the National Magazine Award, tweeted:

"People mad about this article want to believe that Nazis are monsters we cannot relate to.

White supremacists are normal as white people and it's been that way in America since 1776. We will continue to be in trouble till we understand that."


QFT, Quote For Truth, QUOTE FOR TRUTH!!!

What made the Nazis scary was the unspeakably monstrous crimes, that, were, committed, by, ordinary, people.

Add to that the complicit passivity of an entire cultured German population and, well, that's how the Nazis pulled off their genocide against those who they considered "untermensch".

We fail to remember that even in an advanced modern society the thin line between civilized behavior and depraved barbarity is a hell of a lot more thin than people realize -- that is the lesson for the rest of the civilized world.

Of course the rub in America is that free speech, even if it's hate speech, is still Constitutionally protected. That's what people in America have forgotten.

People need to speak out against hate speech, but the American voting electorate also must back up their revulsion toward Constitutionally protected hate speech by voting BEFORE the hateful demagogues are elected to high office.

#2 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-11-26 04:02 PM

But far more were outraged by the article. "You know who had nice manners?" Bess Kalb, a writer for Jimmy Kimmel Live, said on Twitter.

"The Nazi who shaved my uncle Willie's head before escorting him into a cement chamber where he locked eyes with children as their lungs filled with poison and they suffocated to death in agony. Too much? Exactly. That's how you write about Nazis."


Actually it was the Sonderkommandos, who themselves were camp prisoners and Jews, who closed the doors to the gas chambers. It was Nazi officers who dropped the Zyklon-B into the vents from outside and atop of the gas chambers.

While I agree one-thousand-percent with the sentiment of what Bess Kalb is saying, the bigger thing to remember about the genocidal Nazis of WW II is that the vast majority of them, along with their collaborators, NEVER faced any justice -- they simply melted back into society had lived the rest of their lives quietly, as guilty but free war criminals.

That is the infuriatingly ultimate lesson ... and too me, that's where any narrative needs to start when it comes to writing about Nazis.

#3 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-11-26 04:40 PM

That kind of singles out Nazis as the only people to do bad stuff and skate, don't you think?"
When I think the lesson you want there is that injustice is commonplace, and widely tolerated.

#4 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-26 04:52 PM

Smerconish is riffing on this topic right now on his radio show.

Here's his poll question for the day ... http://www.smerconish.com

Which is more the net effect of Richard Fausset's profile of an American neo-Nazi:

• Highlights degree in which hate and extremism have become normal in American life

• Normalizes neo-Nazi views and behaviors


The NYT piece has nothing to do with normalizing Nazis, it has everything to do with understanding how extremism and racist views have already become normal in America -- exposing the hatred that's already around us.

#5 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-11-27 09:27 AM

Everyone who snickers in disgust when they see someone wearing White Supremacist symbology should do the same anytime they see someone wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt. There is no difference between the two.

#6 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 10:11 AM

"While I agree one-thousand-percent with the sentiment of what Bess Kalb is saying, the bigger thing to remember about the genocidal Nazis of WW II is that the vast majority of them, along with their collaborators, NEVER faced any justice -- they simply melted back into society had lived the rest of their lives quietly, as guilty but free war criminals."

What should have happened?

Should we have kept the Kamps open like the Soviets did...and filled them with known Nazis? Put them to hard labor for their beleifs? I have a sneaking suspicion that the vast majority of the Nazis never pulled a trigger or caused bodily harm to someone else.

Should we punish all of those who hold views we disagree with? Is that what I understand you to be saying?

#7 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 10:14 AM

While I agree one-thousand-percent with the sentiment of what Bess Kalb is saying, the bigger thing to remember about the genocidal Nazis of WW II is that the vast majority of them, along with their collaborators, NEVER faced any justice -- they simply melted back into society had lived the rest of their lives quietly, as guilty but free war criminals.

#3 | POSTED BY PINCHALOAF AT 2017-11-26 04:40 PM | FLAG:

We rounded up the smart ones and gave them jobs.

The fighting forces we prepared as an insurgency strike force for the thought-to-be-impending, war against the Soviets. In that case Nazi remnants would have fought side by side with the Allies.

#8 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-28 11:47 AM


Overall, I think it was good that the NYTimes tried to expand their readership beyond the bubble, helping them realize the current reality of the Country we live in.

Perhaps it is that reality that many found so offensive.

Could the NYTime have done it better? Of course, and they've acknowledged that fact.

But many of the complainers should really keep in mind the difference between the reporter and what is being reported upon. If they find the subject matter so objectionable, then are they just trying to deny the current reality of the Country we live in?

#9 | Posted by LampLighter at 2017-11-28 11:48 AM

A philosophy of hate does not spring out of thin air. If it is acceptable to interview subjects on the extreme left, it is as acceptable to interview the white nationalist/racial supremacist. Honestly, I believe exposure is the best way to make these people less appealing. We can not suppress an ideal, but we can evaluate it in the light of day. Supression has been tried before, it never works.

#10 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-28 12:11 PM

There is no difference between the two.

This is an absurd comparison.

People who wear Che Guevara shirts aren't advocating white supremacy, chanting anti-Semitic slogans and seeking the fascist overthrow of democracy to expel or exterminate groups they hate.

The Che shirt is just a fashion accessory that represents generic counterculture rebellion.

#11 | Posted by rcade at 2017-11-28 12:15 PM

I don't need to read a gauzy, sympathetic take on Nazis after Charlottesville. I need to read stories on how they are being prosecuted for crimes or driven back under their rocks.

#12 | Posted by rcade at 2017-11-28 12:16 PM

A philosophy of hate does not spring out of thin air. If it is acceptable to interview subjects on the extreme left, it is as acceptable to interview the white nationalist/racial supremacist. Honestly, I believe exposure is the best way to make these people less appealing. We can not suppress an ideal, but we can evaluate it in the light of day. Supression has been tried before, it never works.

#10 | POSTED BY DOCNJO

Let me know when Antifa starts killing people or calling for the extermination of an entire race, nutjob.

#13 | Posted by Sycophant at 2017-11-28 12:18 PM

This is an absurd comparison.

I can only assume that you regard this as absurd based on your own beliefs and ideals. 20 years ago I was in Singapore at a time when Nazi paraphernalia was the new hotness. It seemed odd to me, but maybe Singapore had simply been a society more tolerant and accepting of extremist ideologies, leading to the swastika becoming another symbol of "generic counter-culture rebellion? Maybe more exposure to mainstream society will do the same to National Socialism that it did to Communism...represented by Che?

#14 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 12:26 PM

"Let me know when Antifa starts killing people or calling for the extermination of an entire race, nutjob."

Who is causing more damage, someone claiming that someone else should be exterminated, or someone who is buring a car? befire you answer, know that there are plenty of examples of those on the left pondering the killing of the rich, among others.

the ANTIFA douchebags are just as bad as the Ne-Na's.

#15 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 12:31 PM

I'm going with the advocate for genocide being the more dangerous of the two. It seems self-evident.

#16 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-28 12:47 PM

"I'm going with the advocate for genocide being the more dangerous of the two. It seems self-evident."

Really? What about advocating for you being punched in the face vs. punching you in the face?

Should we start rounding up or suppressing the rights of supporters of political Islam?

#17 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 12:51 PM

It seemed odd to me, but maybe Singapore had simply been a society more tolerant and accepting of extremist ideologies, leading to the swastika becoming another symbol of "generic counter-culture rebellion?

We're talking about Nazis in America, who have made it perfectly clear they aren't just engaging in generic counterculture rebellion. They have plans they want to carry out. They have killed people and hurt others.

The average American in a Che shirt only wants to murder a burrito.

#18 | Posted by rcade at 2017-11-28 01:25 PM

Really? What about advocating for you being punched in the face vs. punching you in the face?
Should we start rounding up or suppressing the rights of supporters of political Islam?

#17 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER AT 2017-11-28 12:51 PM | FLAG:

If somebody commits assault, arrest them. It's pretty simple.

#19 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-28 01:31 PM

"We're talking about Nazis in America, who have made it perfectly clear they aren't just engaging in generic counterculture rebellion. They have plans they want to carry out."

So do many other fringe groups in this country.

Should we head them all off at the pass and shut them down before they have a chance to take action, or do we maybe ackowledge that the vast majority are going to be blusterers who do nothing more than talk.

There are those, even on this site, who have spoken in defense of Muslims killing or hurting those who are non-belivers. SHould J Tremain be placed in prison? And there's no shortage of comments on how CEOs should be rounded up and thrown in prison. And go to any major city in the country, and you can find graffiti placed by those who call for killing the rich, or men, or jews, or capitalists, or whatever.

And you point out the Ne-Na's, but what about the Black Bloc? What do you think we should do about them? In terms of employing violence against society, there one of the biggest threats. Not just in the US, but throughout the world.

#20 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 01:43 PM

Look, I grew up listening to stories about how my realtives had been rounded up and thrown into Nazi camps. Everyone knows those stories. But for me, those were followed with stories about how the other army of European Socialists, following orders of Comrade Stalin, ordered that many of those who survived the nazi camps were killed as enemies of the proletariat. I think that's a story less common here in the US, and that's why USans are more open to the concept of Socialism. Just like the people in Singapore were more open to symbols representing the German National Socilaists.

For me, if you don't have freedom of speech for all, you have freedom of speech for none. And don't say that you're willing to allow the government to restrict freedom of speech unless you're willing to grant it to the one currently in power.

#21 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 01:47 PM

"If somebody commits assault, arrest them. It's pretty simple."

But just talking about assault...that's still OK?

#22 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 01:47 PM

Conspiracy to assault is a crime.

#23 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-28 01:57 PM

Not to interrupt the nazi apologetics and whataboutisms of madbomber, but a simple exercise you can do here is go back and read the Times' coverage of the Mike Brown shooting and compare what they wrote about Brown vs how they describe this piece of ---- nazi. That should put this in perspective.

#24 | Posted by qcp at 2017-11-28 02:01 PM

"Conspiracy to assault is a crime."

If a member of left-wing group is carrying a flag calling for the rich to be killed, is that conspiracy to commit murder?

#25 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 02:17 PM

"Not to interrupt the nazi apologetics and whataboutisms of madbomber, but a simple exercise you can do here is go back and read the Times' coverage of the Mike Brown shooting and compare what they wrote about Brown vs how they describe this piece of ---- nazi. That should put this in perspective."

Just out of curiosity, if they were to interview a member of the Communist Party, should the be sure to tie everything to the almost infinte number of atrocities the copmmunists carried out worldwide?

#26 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 02:21 PM

Communism is just a red herring

#27 | Posted by qcp at 2017-11-28 02:24 PM

If a member of left-wing group is carrying a flag calling for the rich to be killed, is that conspiracy to commit murder?

#25 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER AT 2017-11-28 02:17 PM | FLAG:

If they make an actual plan to kill a specific person, then yes.

Why such stupid questions?

#28 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-28 02:46 PM

#27

Yeah...Communists have never done anything that should be considered suspicious...

"If they make an actual plan to kill a specific person, then yes. Why such stupid questions?"

What about a demogrpahic? Like "the rich"

I remember a sign at a demonstration during the Invasion of Iraq that said "We support our Troops when they kill their officers." Should those people have been rounded up or otherwise shut down?

#29 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 02:57 PM

"Just out of curiosity, if they were to interview a member of the Communist Party, should the be sure to tie everything to the almost infinte number of atrocities the copmmunists carried out worldwide?"

No, because the Commuist Party here in the U.S. is just that, a party. In the USSR it was a revoutionary force that overthrew the government and installed itself as the one party governing body of the nation. Democracy was not part of that new government except as window dressing which wasn't a real democracy. The atrocities were not caused by "Communism" they were caused by ruthless dictators who were able to muscle their way to the top.

#30 | Posted by danni at 2017-11-28 03:19 PM

You can't separate communism from communist dictatorships, no more than you can separate capitalism from slavery.

#31 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-11-28 03:24 PM

--The atrocities were not caused by "Communism" they were caused by ruthless dictators who were able to muscle their way to the top.

It's amazing the number of times progressives use the "No True Communist, er, Scotsman Fallacy. You would almost think they admire communism.

#32 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-11-28 03:26 PM

"You can't separate communism from communist dictatorships, no more than you can separate capitalism from slavery."

Because the owners of industry would not willingly give up ownership and thus war would occur.

#33 | Posted by danni at 2017-11-28 03:29 PM

"You would almost think they admire communism."

More like we do admire socialism as applied in some of the northern European nations.

#34 | Posted by danni at 2017-11-28 03:30 PM

"The atrocities were not caused by "Communism" they were caused by ruthless dictators who were able to muscle their way to the top."

Communism was as much a factor in what happened under Communist dictators as National Socialism was under National Socilaist dictators.

"You can't separate communism from communist dictatorships, no more than you can separate capitalism from slavery."

Technically, you can't separate slavery from any society anymore than you can find a person on earth whose ancestors weren't slaves...or slaveowners for that matter.

"It's amazing the number of times progressives use the "No True Communist, er, Scotsman Fallacy. You would almost think they admire communism."

Agreed. Many progressives insist that their ideals are achievable without the use of violence, and sometimes it is. In the Soviet Union, it was not. The citizens of Russia did not want to commit the lives of themsleves and their family, along with everything they owned, to the dream of socialism. So the leaders had two choices, abandon the dream, or eliminate all those who opposed them. They chose the latter.

#35 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 03:37 PM

"Because the owners of industry would not willingly give up ownership and thus war would occur."

You wouldn't give up ownership of your property for someone else's well being either. ALthough I don't think you would have been the one being asked to give something up. You have been leading one of Beria's sqads against peasnat landowners who refused to give their crops to the state.

#36 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 03:40 PM

Your argument is sort of like excusing Hitler because the Jews wouldn't give up their property and abandon Germany voluntarily. They should have known they had no place in an Aryan country!

A position that J Tremain has often invoked when Pakistani infidels are attacked and murdered.

#37 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-28 03:44 PM

I'm going with "Know Thy Enemy" on this.

Dehumanizing the enemy is a tactic Nazis used against their scapegoats. So, no thanks.

It's also probably worth knowing just how many Americans have these kinds of beliefs. A lot do. Some of them post here.

#38 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-28 06:53 PM

#11 | Posted by rcade When I see a individual wearing a Che shirt, I wonder if they too are pro mass execution, or a serious racist. Che was Castro's primary killer, many of those butchered actually helped Castro come to power. He got tired of their last words so he had the prisoners' mouths gagged. Che was an abject failure. So bad at actually governing, Castro sent him out of the country in one year of him managing industry in Cuba. BTW, as an asthmatic, he was NEVER in one battle in Cuba. He showed his ineptitude as a military leader in Africa, then Bolivia. Che is a true representative of the left.

#39 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-28 06:56 PM

"When I see a individual wearing a Che shirt, I wonder if they too are pro mass execution, or a serious racist."

One man's Che is another man's Christopher Columbus. Who warrants a Federal holiday, even.

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-28 07:15 PM

I don't need to read a gauzy, sympathetic take on Nazis after Charlottesville. I need to read stories on how they are being prosecuted for crimes or driven back under their rocks.

#12 | POSTED BY RCADE

The problem is millions of Americans lean toward intolerance ...

MANY AMERICANS HAVE MORE IN COMMON WITH WHITE NATIONALISTS THAN THEY THINK, POLL FINDS

www.newsweek.com

BY STAV ZIV ON 9/15/17 AT 5:35 PM

Very few Americans will say outright that they support neo-Nazism, white nationalism or the so-called alt right. But that doesn't mean they don't express support for some of the same racially-charged ideas and attitudes that such extremists espouse.

A new poll conducted by Reuters and Ipsos with the University of Virginia Center for Politics in the aftermath of the Charlottesville rallies found what it called "troubling racial attitudes."

Only six percent of respondents said they strongly or somewhat supported the alt-right, while eight percent said the same of white nationalism and just four percent of neo-Nazism.

In the case of the alt-right and white nationalism, a staggering one-fifth said they neither support nor oppose the groups. As President Donald Trump found out when he failed to unequivocally condemn the same groups, middling responses can be interpreted as support.

"Let's remember, there are nearly 250 million adults in the United States, so even small percentages likely represent the beliefs of many millions of Americans," Larry J. Sabato, director of the University of Virginia Center of Politics, is quoted as saying.

About 70 percent of respondents strongly agreed that people of different races should be "free to live wherever they choose" and that "all races are equal," and 89 percent agreed that all races should be treated equally. At the same time, 31 percent of respondents said they strongly or somewhat agreed that the country needs to "protect and preserve its White European heritage," while 34 percent strongly or somewhat disagreed and 29 percent said they neither agreed nor disagreed.

Nearly a third of respondents failed to express support of interracial marriage -- with 16 percent agreeing outright that "marriage should only be allowed between two people of the same race," 14 percent neither agreeing nor disagreeing and four percent saying they didn't know.


Hate is already all around us -- being outraged and offended over the NYT depicting a neo-Nazi shopping at Walmart glosses over the way more troubling aspect that millions of people think they have more in common with those scumbags with the tiki torches than with anyone outside their race.

The way to drive the white supremacists back under the rocks is to convince the middling middle that it's not okay to be apathetic about hate and intolerance by showing that the faces of hate and intolerance look as ordinary as they do, instead of the usual caricatures, heightens awareness and understanding as to what's going on -- this helps bolster the argument to take a stand against them.

#41 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-11-28 09:23 PM

Should we have kept the Kamps open like the Soviets did...and filled them with known Nazis? Put them to hard labor for their beleifs? I have a sneaking suspicion that the vast majority of the Nazis never pulled a trigger or caused bodily harm to someone else.

Should we punish all of those who hold views we disagree with? Is that what I understand you to be saying?

#7 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

We did a piss poor job post WWII in holding those middle-managers who made the holocaust wheels turn and machinery work -- they didn't drop the Zyklon-B tablets into the vents in the death camps, and they didn't pull triggers in the Einsatzgruppen, but those middle-managers knew what was going on and were just as guilty as the big fish at Nuremberg and the trigger pullers.

The Allies lacked the moral integrity to bring those guilty to justice, to do anything about the rat-lines, etc., ... and instead looked the other way -- shameful.

#42 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-11-28 09:55 PM

I'm hoping Darwinism wins the war against Nazi's/Alt-right/Teajadists/Republicans/Breitbart-Fox News viewers or whatever Trump supporters are calling themselves on a given day. Ya know where the utterly stupid end up offing themselves by accident because they are literally to stupid to live. ...and hopefully these events happen before they reproduce.

#43 | Posted by aborted_monson at 2017-11-29 01:04 AM

"We did a piss poor job post WWII in holding those middle-managers who made the holocaust wheels turn and machinery work."

I agree, but stating that Nazi party members should be punished for the crimes of Nazi party is like saying communist party members should be punished for crimes committed by the NKVD. Or for Islamosist to be punished for the crimes of ISIS and Al Quaeda.

The Nazis, for their part, saw the writing on the wall, and had ample time to prepare for Germany's defeat. If you were a mid-level SS officer, it wasn't hard to throw on the uniform of a wehrmacht NCO and slip onto a ship headed for South America.

#44 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-29 10:44 AM

"Che is a true representative of the left."

Then Batista is a true representative of the right.

#45 | Posted by danni at 2017-11-29 11:00 AM

Which "right" is that?

The ----- grabbing Alt-right? The White Supremacist right, the fundamentalist christian right, or the CATO institute fiscal conservative right?

#46 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-29 12:38 PM

Or are they all one in the same?

#47 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-11-29 12:38 PM

Pretty much.

#48 | Posted by Corky at 2017-11-29 12:54 PM

"Pigs in a blanket. Fry 'em like bacon."

Is this simply speech, hate speech, or inciting violence?

#49 | Posted by Petrous at 2017-11-29 01:45 PM

Which "right" is that?

Either the wrong-right or left-right.

#50 | Posted by Petrous at 2017-11-29 01:47 PM

Maybe after 50 years after Jim Crow died and 50 years of affirmative action, the welfare state, the victim narrative, Black criminality, censored news, and a multitude of excuses, white people are just tired of black people and racial issues in general. I believe the best advice I gave my kids is to remember that they were in competition with every individual looking for a job. They had to possess a diploma and a skill set to get something more than a minimum wadge job. Some people are prejudiced, but even a redneck will hire a black guy to do skilled work. Little hint for any body looking for a job. Pull your pants up, don't get tattoos on your neck or face, dress like a man ready to work and don't curse. Set up, pay attention, and think before you speak. I have actually hired people, you would be surprised at what I have seen come in for an interview.

#51 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-29 02:21 PM

I'm going with "Know Thy Enemy" on this.

Dehumanizing the enemy is a tactic Nazis used against their scapegoats. So, no thanks.

It's also probably worth knowing just how many Americans have these kinds of beliefs. A lot do. Some of them post here.

#38 | Posted by snoofy

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

#52 | Posted by donnerboy at 2017-11-29 02:52 PM

#40 | Posted by snoofy, Cristobal Colon was a product of the 15th Century, in an era where most believed in the divine right of kings, the infallibility of the catholic church plus witches, curses, demons and comets being omens of disaster. Che was a product of the 20th, and what he believed was even more insane.

#53 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-29 02:58 PM

"Pigs in a blanket. Fry 'em like bacon."

Is this simply speech, hate speech, or inciting violence?

#49 | POSTED BY PETROUS

White people have been calling cops pigs since forever... so you implying that BLM specifically is engaging in hate is as limp as as wet noodle.

#54 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-11-29 06:18 PM

... but stating that Nazi party members should be punished for the crimes of Nazi party is like saying communist party members should be punished for crimes committed by the NKVD. Or for Islamosist to be punished for the crimes of ISIS and Al Quaeda.

#44 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Regular Nazi party members deserved appropriate justice for basic party membership if only to document them and put them on the record in case they were later tied in war crimes.

That said, those German civil servants who made the trains move on time to the Death camps were accomplices, the regular German police and the auxiliary police who were non-German but willingly participated in clearing the ghettos and helped with the mass deportations, the German civilian industrialists and their middle-managers who profited from slave labor ... very, very few of these ------ were ever bought to justice -- shameful.

And whatever your feelings about the Soviet Union, they were our Allies, remember? The Russians had more killed at Stalingrad than we had killed in the entire war. In fact, the Germans suffered 80% of their entire casualties fighting the Russians. Our landings at Normandy was akin to a sledgehammer smashing an egg shell.

The Nazis responsible for holocaust? We got many of the big fish, a few of the small fish, but the vast majority of those with genocidal blood on their hands got away with mass murder.

#55 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2017-11-29 06:41 PM

"Cristobal Colon was a product of the 15th Century, in an era where most believed in the divine right of kings, the infallibility of the catholic church plus witches, curses, demons and comets being omens of disaster."

And you're happy to overlook all of that, and call him a hero nonetheless.

So, you can do the same for Che. You just choose not to.

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-29 07:01 PM

#56 | Posted by snoofy Cris was not a coward, and he actually accomplished something. Che was a coward, when captured by the Bolivian Army, his words were, "Don't shoot me, I'm worth a lot of money". In the end the only thing he accomplished was ending the lives of thousands of people better than himself. Sorry I do not have much respect for a mass murderer.

#57 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-30 04:36 AM

"Sorry I do not have much respect for a mass murderer."

Except you literally just said Columbus actually accomplished something.

You do in fact have respect for one of the mass murderers, but not the other one.

Ironically, you respect the one who used government handout to finance his voyage of enslavement and conquest.

But hey you're a soldier, and you get a government handout to kill and conquer, so I can see why you identify with Columbus.

#58 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-30 01:48 PM

#58 | Posted by snoofy, Actually Columbus executed two of his own officers for mistreating the local natives. Spain was militantly Catholic, They had just expelled the Muslims from Spain in 1492, after a three hundred year struggle. There were plenty of unemployed soldiers to send to the New World. These guys were talented killers. Respect has nothing to do with Columbus, he was a poor administrator, lousy leader, and could never accept that he had stumbled upon a continent. He was a product of his time. He died in prison. If it was not for small pox, the natives would have gotten their act together and expelled these invaders. But they did not. There was a interesting point made about the Comanche, They originally came from north New Mexico and southern Colorado. After they got horses they hit the plains, and took lands from the Kiowa, Wichita, Osage and others. There are no perfect people. But Che was a bad man in any estimation. Womanizer, racist, thug, and butcher. Icon of the left because he hated this country.

#59 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-30 02:12 PM

"But Che was a bad man in any estimation. Womanizer, racist, thug, and butcher."

All the qualities you look for in a leader. Those are all Alpha, Woke, Un-Cucked behaviors, when you agree with their politicsm

You just disagree with Che's politics is all. So you find traits in the man that you respect in people you like, and cast them as negatives on people you don't like.

It's really no different than when a misogynist described a man as "assertive" but when a woman acts the exact same way she's being "bossy."

You're one of those people who thinks Obamacare is far worse than the Affordable Care Act.

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-30 02:20 PM

#60 | Posted by snoofy,If you had ever met Che, he would have probity killed you. Which would have been preferable to being around him, he seldom bathed. Che's politics was that of mass murder, nothing more. Project much? Those you disagree with are evil, those you agree with are excused of all their crimes. Actually most of my commanders were women, some were very good and some were not. BTW, when did masculinity become a crime? Third wave feminism is insane, so toxic 80% of women no longer consider themselves such.

#61 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-30 02:42 PM

"If you had ever met Che, he would have probity killed you."

If you had met Columbus, he would have enslaved your whole family.

You seem to think I look up to Che the way you look up to Columbus.

#62 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-30 02:51 PM

#62 | Posted by snoofy Already happened to my family, by the English for 6 hundred years.

#63 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-30 03:19 PM

And here you are, speaking the language of your oppressor!

You probably demand schools be taught in the language of the oppressor too. :)

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2017-11-30 03:29 PM

Realistically, the fault is equally on the Irish, if they could have united, put up a common front and put aside their petty squabbles between each other they could have maintained a measure of independence as their Celtic brethren in Scotland did for centuries, but they did not.

#65 | Posted by docnjo at 2017-11-30 05:04 PM

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