Apparently Reality Sucks....

They didn't commit suicide. They just had other priorities than life.

Dick Deferment

Then they won't cost the VA money!
-Dick C

So mull over this one: Without a doubt Bush should be prosecuted on 4,000 counts of Murder One for the American combat deaths in Iraq. Is he also an accomplice to the deaths of those who off themselves in the wake of their Iraq atrocities. Or are these whimps, pussies and cowardly commie traitors who the bogus paratrooper thinks deserve to die? herm

Herm,

Without a doubt? I know, you socialistas, having been told what to think, don't have doubts, but really, that's a silly statement.

What about Billary and all the other people who favored this war as well?

What about JFK and LBJ and Jimmy Carter and every other president who've ordered people to their deaths?

Any suicidal person is, ultimately, a wimp, Herm, at least at the time the suicide decision was made. That's not really a criticism so much as a statement of fact.

Any suicidal person is, ultimately, a wimp,

God, I love the Republicans. Soldiers are either super heroes saving us from al queda or gutless wimps. Depends on whether or not they need something like body armor or medical care.

>Or are these whimps, pussies and cowardly commie traitors who the bogus paratrooper thinks deserve to die? herm

No they are people who've seen bodies explode, corpses with half a head, their best buddy laying on the ground dying with his guts spread over a 2 yard area around them.

They've been shot at with real bullets, been subjected to hours long firefights.

For some people it's too much to handle without counseling and the VA ignores them.

This isn't about Bush or politics, it's about psychological trauma endured by soldiers with no way to deal with it.

Lets keep it on target.

-Viz

My theory on all this stuff is that these people with disorders would probably have been discovered very early on before PC took over and bootcamps had to be kinder and gentler. Some special branches still weed them out by stressing candidates to the max, such as SEALs, Delta Force, Rangers etc. In other words, MOST of these suicides probably had problems when they enlisted and they were NOT caused by combat or PTSD. In the "old days," most of them would have probably washed out in training.

My theory on all this stuff is that these people with disorders would probably have been discovered very early on before PC took over and bootcamps

Or it could be the lowered standards set by Bush and Rummy to fill the military without having to have a draft, which would out about half the male Young Republicans. You do know the GOPpers have been running the Pentagon for the last 7 years? I didn't know they were all that PC, because they sure don't like the gays, no matter how sane or qualified they are.

When my grandpa(RIP) volunteered in 1941 for the USMC they would weed out all kinds of folks. You had to be the right height, weight,size ,etc. Nowadays that would be "unfair"

Anyone with ANY kind of perceived mental issue was rejected.

Oh yeah and NO ONE had body armor.

I believe the Iraq suicide figure is 126/week, totaling about 34,000. What, another fucking cover-up, whoda thunk it.

So mull over this one: Without a doubt Bush should be prosecuted on 4,000 counts of Murder One for the American combat deaths in Iraq. Is he also an accomplice to the deaths of those who off themselves in the wake of their Iraq atrocities.

Posted by herm

This has never happened before. All other wars never had any deaths. That damn Bush.

I'll bet the number is way overstated. There are no facts to back that statement.

Who could have known that killing other humans can make you depressed?

Who could have known?

But, But, We Must KILL THE KILLERS!

It's those stupid libruls fault fer sure...

Oh yeah and NO ONE had body armor.

Posted by laylakerunner


So you're saying we should have invaded Iraq with brown bettys and a drummer and fife?

Sorry technology makes life safer.

One of the effects of PTSD is nightmares that revisit battles, life and death situations, and visual impressions of death or mutilation. This causes sleep deprivation and both physical and mental fatigue.

Previous studies show that emotional support from spouses, family, friends, and comrades tend to help veterans readjust, as does counseling. But too often those who suffer from PTSD try to hide it, and begin using alcohol as a sedative. That's when the risk factor for suicide increases dramatically.

Many of these guys are subjected to combat stresses every day without rotation, never knowing if they'll be blown up or catch a sniper's bullet. (Hillary emphasizes)

It takes it's toll.

As for anyone who calls these vets weak I only hope that someday your life is filled with unbearable pain that has no relief.

they're killing themselves over there so they don't have to kill themselves here

"...In other words, MOST of these suicides probably had problems when they enlisted and they were NOT caused by combat or PTSD. In the "old days," most of them would have probably washed out in training."

Posted by jestgettinalong

No, you're right. Every one of these people would have killed themselves even if they hadn't served. PTSD is no big deal for anyone mentally strong enough. But hey, you go to war with the army you have, or the army you can get your hands on, I guess.

"I believe the Iraq suicide figure is 126/week, totaling about 34,000. What, another fucking cover-up, whoda thunk it."

You WOULD believe that...after all, you're a NUTCASE. 34,000 suicides? Get real.

"Many of these guys are subjected to combat stresses every day without rotation, never knowing if they'll be blown up or catch a sniper's bullet."

They have a scheduled rotation...not like WWII. Back then you were there until it was OVER. Yes, sometimes their rotation is extended, but they have deployment and rotation home schedules. I saw an interview of General Giap years ago and he was asked the biggest mistake of the American Army in Vietnam. Without hesitation he responded, "The one- year rotation."

"Every one of these people would have killed themselves even if they hadn't served. PTSD is no big deal for anyone mentally strong enough. But hey, you go to war with the army you have, or the army you can get your hands on, I guess."

That about says it all. No need to stay on THIS thread.

Any suicidal person is, ultimately, a wimp, Herm, at least at the time the suicide decision was made. That's not really a criticism so much as a statement of fact.

Posted by jonryker at 2008-05-06 12:33 PM | Reply |


Dumb cunt flag.

e-mail from the head of the VA:

Clarification:
e-mails

and from:

Under Secretary For Health
Veterans Health Administration

- and -

Dputy Chief Patient Care Services Office for Mental Health

Attacking the guts of those who opt for suicide is not worth responding to. Suggestions that the Murder One prosecutions be extended to Hillary because she was duped by the WMD bullshit or prior wartime presidents is worth it.

Yeah, anyone taken in and voting for Bush's oil/ego war in Iraq (or the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, for that matter) is a tool, an unwitting accomplice. But Bush's war is something special, unprecedented in American history. Maybe someone can correct me with our bouts against Mexico or Spain, but Bush's sending 4,000 young Americans to die to line his own pockets with oil profits (and Cheney's with Halliburton profits) ... that felony utterly dwarfs anyone's reluctance to discuss a blow job . herm

that felony utterly dwarfs anyone's reluctance to discuss a blow job . herm

Posted by herm

Not when impeachment is off the table. that's as good as cosigning on it.

And if the combat deaths outnumbered the suicide deaths, I suppose there'd be hell to pay for that. Of course, abortion murders don't seem to trigger any outrage from this same group of pro-deathers. Hell, you don't even like the soldiers...

Hell, you don't even like the soldiers...

Posted by jonryker

The only reason they even bring it up is to make Bush look bad. The combat deaths under BJ Willie wasn't even an issue with them.

Don't you know childern arn't human when they are less than a day old.

Northguy and Pancho,

"Heroes or wimps"...

Well, I'm no Republican, but once a person decides that life is too much for them and in spite of the needs of their loved ones, does themselves in, I'd say they copped out. Or, perhaps they were simply correct in that assumption. I'd also say they've forgone the need for medical care. It certainly is not an act of bravery.

I'm not saying I'd do any different, so this is not a value judgment. However, if I killed myself when I was safe, I'd hope people would respect me enough to be mad at me for doing it and not feel sorry for me like I was some subhuman who had no value in my life or no purpose for my family.

Then again, that's how you socialistas see people, don't you?

The only reason they even bring it up is to make Bush look bad. The combat deaths under BJ Willie wasn't even an issue with them.

What combat deaths?

Any suicidal person is, ultimately, a wimp, Herm, at least at the time the suicide decision was made. That's not really a criticism so much as a statement of fact.

Posted by jonryker at 2008-05-06 12:33 PM | Reply | Flag:


WELL, WELL, WELL. SO MUCH FOR 'WE SUPPORT THE TROOPS'!

I GUESS THAT MEANS YOU SUPPORT THEM RIGHT UP UNTIL THE JOB WE SENT THEM TO DO BEGINS TO TAKE IT'S TOLL AND THEN THEY'RE WIMPS, RIGHT?

GOTTA LOVE THE REPUBLICAN MINDSET WHEN IT COMES TO OUR TROOPS! HEROES UNTIL YOU DON'T NEED THEM, THEN 'FUCKEM', WE'RE DONE WITH THEM. HOW QUAINT!

When my grandpa(RIP) volunteered in 1941 for the USMC they would weed out all kinds of folks. You had to be the right height, weight,size ,etc. Nowadays that would be "unfair"

Anyone with ANY kind of perceived mental issue was rejected.

I know they've lowered standards in the last several years but they always have physical and mental requirements.

Back when I worked in a recruiting office, one of the stupidest things I had to deal with was a kid who wasn't allowed to enlist because he went through counseling as an early-teen. It didn't matter that this counseling was mandatory and part of his parents divorce agreement, we couldn't get him wavered.

As of 7 or 8 years ago, it was very difficult to enlist anyone who had any kind of counseling; it didn't matter the context or how much time had passed.

Does anyone know if it's still like this?

They have a scheduled rotation...not like WWII. Back then you were there until it was OVER. Yes, sometimes their rotation is extended, but they have deployment and rotation home schedules. I saw an interview of General Giap years ago and he was asked the biggest mistake of the American Army in Vietnam. Without hesitation he responded, "The one- year rotation."

I think most people would agree that the current system, of rotating complete units in and out of Iraq is significantly better than rotating individuals in and out of permanently stationed units in Vietnam.

The maintenance of unit cohesion and comradery is one of the primary arguments for Stop-Loss. I honestly believe that w/out Stop-Loss, we'd have a lot more casualties, because we'd be forced to send send understrength and thrown together units into a combat zone.

I find this headline very hard to believe.
I acknowledge a high rate of suicides -- but outnumbering combat deaths? Come on.

"and six in 10 believed seeking treatment would damage their careers. "


Wow. The article goes on to say how much the "system" is broken and then states this, which negates the entire argument of the article!

:)

Commensense,

I'm not a Republican...

All screaming aside, you fail to make a point. I'm all for helping whatever psychological needs they have upon return.

I didn't think I'd have to tell you, though, that once they've refused all help and killed themselves, there's not much I can do except bury them, which doesn't really help their psychological state.

I didn't think I'd have to tell you, though, that once they've refused all help and killed themselves, there's not much I can do except bury them, which doesn't really help their psychological state.


Posted by jonryker



This is the issue, however, the article is focused on how a Government "System" is failing. Wow, really?

Can you imagine this organization running our national healthcare?!!?

BTW, the VA has been failing verterans for decades!!

The combat deaths under BJ Willie wasn't even an issue with them

All, what, 20 of them? That'd be 18 in Somolia and 2 in Kosovo.

Somebody sent Sniper an email that said Clinton killed 7000 soldiers. He seriously believes Bill and Hillary used to fly over military bases shooting at troops lined up to salute them.
he's still waiting for his 37 million from his deceased uncle, King Whatafukheadheis, late of Nigeria.

Of course, abortion murders don't seem to trigger any outrage from this same group of pro-deathers.

We're talking about real people Jon, not a couple of cells stuck together. Read the Bible, they aren't alive. But nice attempt to spin yet another of Bush's fuckups.

The maintenance of unit cohesion and comradery is one of the primary arguments for Stop-Loss. I honestly believe that w/out Stop-Loss, we'd have a lot more casualties, because we'd be forced to send send understrength and thrown together units into a combat zone.

~Katieberry.

Not going into Iraq at all and only going after the Taliban and AQ in Afganistan and in Pakistan woulda been better still.

Iraq was, and is, a bridge too far.

Yer Stop-Loss argument is belied by the grim suicide statistics this article cites. Increased time in-country with decreased time back in the world leads inevitably to increased PSTD and suicide. Thus the unit's cohesion and morale are already decreased before they return to Iraq. Add into the mix the fact that the neo-Praetorian Guard ie. the Mercenaries get better wages and accomodation plus the inherent viciousness of house to house inter-urban combat against an insurgency/resistance movement and the ultimate unwinnability against a committed local resistance (all propaganda about AQ and "foreign fighters" aside) and you have a recipe for disaster.

The fact that troops were and largely still are being rotated out of an area after making alliances with locals just underscores in Spud's mind how the plan was always controlled chaos. Which is to say that BushCo planned for Iraq to go to hell and radicalise in order to perpetuate the thin excuses used to go into the country and stay there.

The US Government has signed thirty and fourty year agreements with the multinationals and there is no way in hell that they were signed w/o assurances that America would continue to provide reasons (similar to the BS excuses Israel uses in Palestine) in order to continue the unwarranted occupation.

BTW, the VA has been failing verterans for decades!!

~Eddie.

First thing you've sed in a long while that Spud has agreed with.

Still no excuse fer not fixing the thing but it's true nonetheless.

Be Well.

JGA,

I read the 126/week figure somewhere and cannot find it now. The CBS story broadcast last month uses 120/week.

(CBS) Back in November, CBS News broke the story of the staggering number of veterans who commit suicide. The report was the result of a five-month investigation into veteran suicides.
JGA,

The results were startling: according to data from 45 states, 6,256 men and women who had served in the armed forces took their own lives in 2005 - that's 120 suicides every week. Chief Investigative Correspondent Armen Keteyian and his investigative team found that veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide that year than non-veterans.

Of the 1.6 million US soldiers who have been deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, 18-20 percent -- or around 300,000 -- show symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depression or both, said Thomas Insel, head of the National Institute of Mental Health.

the CBS program was broadcast last November.

~Eddie.

First thing you've sed in a long while that Spud has agreed with.

Still no excuse fer not fixing the thing but it's true nonetheless.

Be Well.

Posted by dethspud


Spud,

How can you fix something that is not fixable?

Discontinue the VA. It doesn't work.

Instead, give veterans full health benefits for the rest of their lives.

Blue Cross, Aetna, etc.

Let the veteran choose what Insurance company they want and the Government will pay the Premium.

The government will spend less money than they are spending on the VA and the Vet will get much better health care.

Eddie,

Yer plan actually makes sense to Spud.

It might even possibly work out so as to avoid having a shameful number of Veterans sleeping rough on the streets of America every night as we have too often seen.

Be Well.

/Thing to see
People to do
Spud's gotsata get going agin
stage left.

Spud,

How can you fix something that is not fixable?

Discontinue the VA. It doesn't work.
Posted by Eddie at 2008-05-06 05:33 PM

That logic applies equally to Iraq. Let us discontinue our presence in Iraq! It is not working and it cannot be fixed. In fact, we are part of the problem.

Northguy,

Consult the Bible...they're not alive...

Well, now I understand why your understanding of biology and environmental science is so limited.....Apparently, you're consulting ignorant Jews from a couple-thousand years ago as science advisors...

Did I hear Eddie say "the government will pay"? Must have been a typo.

Getting back to vets who opt for suicide - and righties who insist that these are, after all, whimps, pussies and cowardly commie traitors:

The 101s and their ilk really want is boot camp and basic to drill the last vestige of decency out of our warriors.

Obviously second thoughts about murdering children and old ladies, raping teens, blowing up schools and hospitals are not MANLY.

The pseudo/quasi/military signees who post here wouldn't have that problem. Real Men kill, rape and burn, and ask questions afterwards. If at all. herm

There were a couple of people in my unit that committed suicide in Afghan. It wasnt that stressful unless we were being lobbed rockets at, and that wasnt that frequent. Most killed themselves because of women back home fucking other people. The article doesnt talk about that, but they chalk it up to combat stress. No doubt there is stress, but I bet alot isnt related to combat. Thinking about someone screwing the woman you love is enough for any man to have bad thoughts.

Boaz may have a point. Maybe the loved ones no longer sit under the apple tree with anyone else but me. That was not only the last Good War, but we finished Hitler and Tojo in much less time than it's taken us to finish whomever the hell we're fighting in Baghdad. herm

"They have a scheduled rotation...not like WWII. Back then you were there until it was OVER."

BarelyGettingAny,

Let's use WW2 as a comparison. I think the avergae combat GI saw somethig like 1-2 months of actual combat not like having a 15 month tour of constant daily combat stress. And being on 2-3 tours now? So something like 3 years of STRAIGHT combat?

American vets in WW2 NEVER saw anything like that.

Shit the D-Day guys were in the UK training for a couple of years before entering into combat. Aside from a couple of hard months of fighting the war was essentially over for them. Unlike in Iraq. Note asshole I'm not trying to put down the effort in WW2 just putting it into perspective the stress that today's military is facing in Iraq.

And then before they returned to civilian life they were acclimated in military run "towns". Now they are just flown in and dumped like used trash. It's disgusting.


You have no fucking clue as usual in what you are talking about.

Furio,

Are you really stupid enough to postulate that WWII vets were under comparatively little combat stress?

I guess so.

Well, I can't add to that.

Whats the matter Just, is the uugly truth too hard to swallow?