Well, that's simple. Cut the program.

Ohio has been devasted by the Bush corrupt free trade policies. Bush has almost single-handedly destroyed America's once mighty manufacturing base. Do we even make pencils anymore?

Lazy pricks living on the government dime. Why the hell should I pay taxes to feed these people and their family. Fuck 'em. Isn't that correct my right leaning posting friends?

ZAP

Now Bush has outsourced our own passports?
Our worse enemy could not have picked a better President to put in office to destroy this nation than GWB. He has privatized and sold off everything -- including the jobs of most Americans.

Has there been a worst man to ever hold the office of the Presidency? No. I also believe he is not that "dumb" either. He had plenty of advisors to ask if he wasn't sure about what actions to take. I no longer have any doubt that Bush's destructive path for our nation and his actions were intentional. The war in Iraq served as a great diversion while he pushed thru his free trade, globalist agenda. Don't forget -- it was Bush's Daddy who coined the words "New World Order" which was to turn over everything to the globalists and get rid of most nation-states for a one world government. Who is going to put our country back on the right path again in 2008? McBush, Hillary the NAFTA Queen? Obama? - please!

God help us all.

The manufacturing that does take place in the U.S. is done down south. If Ohio and other rustbelt states like my own state of Michigan can't compete with Mississippi and Alabama, what makes you think NAFTA is to blame? Maybe the fact that the rustbelt states are overtaxes, overregulated and overunionized has something to do with, but hey, it's easier to blame NAFTA than the unions.

And I don't even like NAFTA because I don't consider it true real free trade. But let's not blame the wrong thing.

Here in Michigan they are planning (or started doing, I don't know) to split people's food stamps payments in two. Rather than receiving one payment per month, they will receive two payments every couple of weeks. Apparently, this is supposed to help the supermarkets stock fresher foods and alieviate inventory problems. When I heard this I thought that a lot of people must be on food stamps if there is such an impact on the economy that they would have to tweak the problem.

And no, we wouldn't have to pay for foodstamps if we had a decent current, less regulation and less taxes because there would be more jobs.

...less regulation and less taxes because there would be more jobs.

Wrong. Bush has already given his corporate buddies plenty of tax cuts and subsidies and there are just about NO federal rules and regulations anymore because since in office Bush has allowed the corporate CEOs to literally write their own federal rules and regulations.

Why do you think there are no inspestions, etc. and all this lethal crap is being imported into our country from China -- lead filled baby toys, etc. while our jobs are being exported daily. Why do you think Bush has slashed out of the budget billions that used to fund consumer inspections and quality control to just about zero.

Sorry, the Republican "trickle down" theory is a friggin' joke.
The benefits do not "trickle down" -- they stay put right at the top.

Don't blame the unions. The unions lapsed in the 70s and 80s because they weren't needed. We didn't have corporate America running amok like we do now. I don't give a damn if people say "stop blaming Bush" because I have worked for plenty of corporations in the past and they were always fair and decent. You didn't see this kind of abuse and anti-American attitude and lack of loyalty to the U.S. consumer and employee among corporations back then like you do now.

Bush gave them carte blanche to run this country and corporate greed trumped all.

GIVE ME BACK MY COUNTRY!
We are not the United States of America, Inc.

Well, my HERO Lou Dobbs is on CNN right now. Got to go watch a real American.
LOU DOBBS FOR PRESIDENT IN 2008!

Maybe the fact that the rustbelt states are overtaxes, overregulated and overunionized has something to do with, but hey, it's easier to blame NAFTA than the unions.


Dirtier Environment, More Hazzards, less pay, Don't even breath the words Health Care or Pension BUT More Jobs (maybe)!

A Platform to be Proud of, God Bless America*


* A wholly owned Corporate Dream (coming true)

inspestions = inspections

Lazy pricks living on the government dime. Why the hell should I pay taxes to feed these people and their family. Fuck 'em. Isn't that correct my right leaning posting friends?


Perhaps for some.

As for me. When my job got shipped overseas, I learned to do something else, and I didn't spend a day on any type of state run welfare program like unemployment.

Never even thought to go apply for it.

Now I realize that there are those folks who cannot find a job and maybe they don't have any real marketable skills other than the ones they performed at their last job. I find it difficult to believe a mechanic can turn into a paper pusher in a day. Often a prospective employer isn't going to even give them a shot.

On the other hand...

I live in a right-to-work state. No one but the employer pays into the Unemployment Insurance. If I didn't contribute to the system, why should I take from it?

I worked with 2 brothers once who would spend 6 or 7 months working to build up benefits. Most times employers wouldn't even protest the rewarding of benefits.

They had filled a few people in on their scam. Work 6 or 7 months then quit and collect unemployment for the rest of the year. They rotated between different call centers. The types of places that recycled mindless drones over and over.

After they spent 6 months at the center, they found a reason to get fired thinking that they would be able to collect.

Couple weeks later our HR Manager testified that they had been communicated multiple times about the things that caused them to be fired, and they were denied benefits.

I guess what I am saying is, get the bums and the sponges off of the government tit and maybe we could support the folks who are legitimately having a tough time.

Scapegoats: NAFTA, Bush, corporate greed, China, free trade, Mexicans etc.

I don't buy it Chris. The responsible parties are the Democrats, Republicans, voters and the Federal Reserve. They drove business out of this country and destroyed our economy. Now it's blowback time.

They drove business out of this country and destroyed our economy. Now it's blowback time.

No, the natural market forces drove business out of this country. There is no way you can have a global economy and expect a small percentage of its wealth to stay concentrated in one area and the people living in that area continue to live like kings. It's impossible.

Over time, the ones on the poorer end of the stick will start getting the jobs because the fat cats no longer want to pay the wages their fat kittens demand.

It's a natural occurance Ray. I'm surprised it took this long to manifest itself. No politician, Rep, Dem, Lib, or Greenie could pass legislation that would sustain such an unnatural balance of wealth

"No, the natural market forces drove business out of this country. There is no way you can have a global economy and expect a small percentage of its wealth to stay concentrated in one area and the people living in that area continue to live like kings. It's impossible."

You are correct, Goatman. This is an inevitable consequence of global capitalism, like it or not. America, with 5% of the world's population, will not continue to consume 25% of the world's oil, just to name one resource, forever. It's unsustainable.

You are uninformed, Goat. Capital goes where it gets the best return. China, for example, has no capital gains or corporate taxes. This country has an anti-capitalist mentality that shows up in its laws, taxes and regulations. Over the decades, I've seen the exodus from northern states to southern states to foreign countries. We're not competitive because the burden of government has gotten too heavy. The more they do, the worse the make it. This is only the early stages of a serious world depression.

Posted by nullifidian at 2008-03-26 07:23 PM

Oh Fuck! The little barking dog is chasing tires again. Socialism destroyed every nation that tried it. No system of mass larceny can sustain itself.

"They drove business out of this country and destroyed our economy. Now it's blowback time."

No problem. Just drive down American workers' standard of living to Chinese levels. Eliminate the minimum wage, workmen's compensation, workplace safety regulations, child labor laws, the 40 hour work week, environmental protection, unions, corporate taxes and regulations, etc. Libertopia!

"Oh Fuck! The little barking dog is chasing tires again. "

Translation: I have a crappy argument and I would rather it not be exposed.

Just drive down American workers' standard of living to Chinese levels. Eliminate the minimum wage, workmen's compensation, workplace safety regulations, child labor laws, the 40 hour work week, environmental protection, unions, corporate taxes and regulations, etc. Libertopia!

Living standards ARE going down to Chinese levels. That's what this thread is about. You just listed some of the reasons why socialism destroys wealth.

Capital goes where it gets the best return.

My point exactly. Since the other 95% of the planet are perfectly capable of doing what the 5% in America does, (we do not have a monopoly on brains and work ethic) but for less money -- there goeth the capital. What you said reinforces my point that concentration of the world's wealth in one area is unsustainable.

"China, for example, has no capital gains or corporate taxes. "

If you're trying to claim China is a free market economy you're full of shit. They have used protectionism and state intervention on a massive scale to build their economy, ignoramous.

"This is an inevitable consequence of global capitalism, like it or not. " -Nulli

Its got nothing to do with capitalism, and everything to do with the natural competition for resources.

What goatman said would apply to any type of political/economic/ecological system.

We're not competitive because the burden of government has gotten too heavy.

That is certainly an issue, Ray, but you cannot blame the fat cats looking for cheaper labor on the government. This is not a partisian issue BTW (I know you are a moderate). There is no workable social system for the people that can sustain a concentration of wealth.

Don't get me wrong, I am not for artificial distribution of wealth (through taxes, e.g.) . I am allowing any worker to be paid his worth. If a job can be done in India for $4/hr, then that's what has to be paid here. It's that simple

Translation: I have a crappy argument and I would rather it not be exposed.

After two years of picking you apart, it's gotten tiresome. That's it for me.

Someday your welfare checks are going to stop.

"Living standards ARE going down to Chinese levels. That's what this thread is about. You just listed some of the reasons why socialism destroys wealth."

No, I listed what free market fundies want: a radical downsizing of American living standards.

"After two years of picking you apart, it's gotten tiresome. That's it for me."

You've never picked me apart, clown. You just whine like a little crybaby anytime I rebut your loonytarian nonsense.

wonder how many are military families

Living standards ARE going down to Chinese levels. That's what this thread is about. You just listed some of the reasons why socialism destroys wealth

Exactly, Ray. You are supporting my arguement though you don't realize it, I think. Yes, standards of living will come down (not to current Chinese levels, though. You are wrong on that point) but at the same time, the standards of living for the Chinese are going up. Ying/yang, black and white becoming gray. Water seeks its own level. YOu get the picture.

I understand the average American doesn't give a rat's ass about standards of living in China. They'll even scream and yell it from the checkout queues of WalMart while pushing their basket of Chinese made goods.

What goatman said would apply to any type of political/economic/ecological system.

No, of course it wouldn't. I said workable social system for the people . A monarchy or (more extreme) a dictatorship, this type of economy is sustainable -- at least until the people revolt. But then we are talking a whole new set of issues.

China, for example, has no capital gains or corporate taxes

China has a corporate income tax as well as a VAT tax.

"Its got nothing to do with capitalism, and everything to do with the natural competition for resources."

It has everything to do with global capitalism. Capitalism is driven by profit, and capitalists go overseas to maximize profit. There is no need to outsource if profits aren't your sole criterion for "success".

Its got nothing to do with capitalism, and everything to do with the natural competition for resources.

As in competition for resources, (natural or not e.g. labor) this is absolutely true.

Goat

For the record, I'm somewhere between anarchist and libertarian. I find, Americans have unleashed too much power in too few hands. Now we're paying for the mass of corruption and waste. It was only a matter of time before the expansion of government would destroy more wealth than our economy could create. Now we are living on credit for as long as it holds out.

There is no workable social system for the people that can sustain a concentration of wealth.

True. Since WWII, as the leading economic and military power with the base currency for the rest of the world, it couldn't last. But what this country is going to experience will be much worse for the reasons above.

There is no need to outsource if profits aren't your sole criterion for "success".

Very succinctly put.

"That is certainly an issue, Ray, but you cannot blame the fat cats looking for cheaper labor on the government."

Ray can, and does, every single day he is on Drudge.

It has everything to do with global capitalism.

Nonsense. It has to do with capitalism infected with too much socialism. A capitalist economy can only support so much socialism.

"That is certainly an issue, Ray, but you cannot blame the fat cats looking for cheaper labor on the government."

That's not capitalism. That's corporate welfare.
The model that drives our economy is a mix is capitalism, fascism and socialism.

Nonsense. It has to do with capitalism infected with too much socialism

Ray. Honestly. *sigh*

It has to do with balance.

...If a job can be done in India for $4/hr, then that's what has to be paid here. It's that simple....

Goatman

That's insane. You want third world pay and third world living conditions here in the U.S. because that's what Bill Gates can get away with paying people in India? An eventual third-world USA is exactly what you'll get paying $4.00 an hour. Not only do these third world countries pay $4 an hour -- if that -- there are no child labor laws, no sick time, no workers' comp if you're hurt on the job, no overtime, nada.

People in China working for U.S. corporations now manufacturing over there live 4000 employees in company dormatories and that's all okay with you just as long as corporate greed is satisfied?

I can't believe you want that kind of world for your kid and grandchildren -- 15 people making $4 an hour all living in a 3 bedroom. one bathroom apt. because that's what $4 an hour will afford.

You're okay with a future for this country where we import third world labor and our own citizens -- including your furture grandchildren -- will all be working 80 hours a week at $4 an hour and will have a worse standard of living than you or those before you ever had? I do not agree with you.

You no longer want the American dream, you want the American nightmare.

A capitalist economy can only support so much socialism.

Posted by Ray at 2008-03-26 07:49 PM | Reply


I would say whatever social programs we are spending money on are far less costly than wars for nothing. I guess republicans would rather have dead foreignors than fed Americans. That's what you get when the country is lead by cowards.

Yes, standards of living will come down

Ours was a false prosperity built on debt. That's what the correction is all about.

The model that drives our economy ...

Consumers drive the economy. As Americans in our 5th or sixth generation of waking up to the fact we can have anything we want at a usually low cost, we seem surprised that now the rest of the world wants a piece of the pie.

GOATMAN....AGREED...FUUNY HOW THE SAME PEOPLE WHO GO AND COMPLAIN ABOUT JOBS GOING OVERSEAS.....WILL GO OUT AND BY THE SAME PRODUCT MADE IN ANOTHER COUNTRY BECAUSE ITS CHEAP

FUUNY HOW THE SAME PEOPLE WHO GO AND COMPLAIN ABOUT JOBS GOING OVERSEAS.....WILL GO OUT AND BY THE SAME PRODUCT MADE IN ANOTHER COUNTRY BECAUSE ITS CHEAP

Have you gone shopping lately? I doubt it.
Try finding something NOT made in China -- and good luck.

Ray. Honestly. *sigh*

It has to do with balance.

That explains nothing. All nature is about balance.

CC..... UNLESS YOU ARE ONLY BUYING..."MADE IN AMERICA" PRODUCTS....YOU NEED TO SHUT UP ABOUT OUTSOURCING

Shopping for what, sex toys?

Ours was a false prosperity built on debt

Only very recently. Pre '50's economy was a working one for where all Americans could prosper and live better than the rest of the world because the rest of the world was buying our products. Now the rest of the world is MAKING those products and selling them to us. And we act surprised at the consequences? Get real! The reason we are so recently in debt is because we want to keep up the standard of living, but the dollars are flowing to the newer market places. As I keep saying: It is not sustainable. Wealth, like water, seeks to level itself out.

"Nonsense. It has to do with capitalism infected with too much socialism. "

Total hogwash. Capitalism at it's most "pure,"(when the state was much smaller) was a boom and bust, monopoly prone, inequality driven system. That's why it was rejected and the mixed economy became the norm.

Judas

Many of the products are no longer manufactured in the United States. VCRs were not made in the US--automobles are not made in the US unless they have Japanese names. Exactly what products are you talking about? The manufactureres you support have sent all the jobs overseas.

WHAT HAS AMERICA DONE.... TO BRING US TO THE NEXT LEVEL OF COMPETION......WHY DO AMERICANS CONTINUE TO BUY GASOLINE POWERED CARS??? WHEN WE CAN BE THE LEADERS IN HYDROGEN POWERED AUTOs

WHAT WILL AMERICAS NEW CASH COW IN THE WORLD MARKET....WILL IT BE REUSABLE ENERGY???? TRANSPORTATION???? WHAT PRODUCT IS NEEDED IN THE WORLD MARKET

That's insane. You want third world pay and third world living conditions here in the U.S. because that's what Bill Gates can get away with paying people in India?

I can't believe you want that kind of world

I didn't say I wanted it. I was explaining why it is happening. Personally, I hate the fact that the chickens have come home to roost in my generation. But I understand why it is happening.

Consumers drive the economy.

And they are in debt up to their ears, driven to borrow by cheap money courtesy of the Federal Reserve.

Goat
If you learned economics from the media, you don't know much about economics. Establishment economists learned Keynesian the Monetarianism theory in college. We are in the process of learning what quacks they are.

Have you gone shopping lately? I doubt it.
Try finding something NOT made in China -- and good luck.

CC...WHY IS THAT?? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE BESIDE COMPLAIN ABOUT IT....WHAT COMPANY HAVE YOU FORMED TO KEEP IN COMPETEION WITH CHINA


BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME

Capitalism at it's most "pure,"(when the state was much smaller) was a boom and bust, monopoly prone, inequality driven system. That's why it was rejected and the mixed economy became the norm.

I wonder what excuses they are going to make when we are well into the worst world depression in human history.

If you learned economics from the media, you don't know much about economics.

I didn't.

"Get real! The reason we are so recently in debt is because we want to keep up the standard of living, but the dollars are flowing to the newer market places. As I keep saying: It is not sustainable. Wealth, like water, seeks to level itself out."

*******

Correct. Americans' real wages have been basically stagnant for 20 years. The only way to maintain standards of living is to borrow. That's why Americans are in debt. And that debt is encouraged because, well, someone has to purchase the surplus of goods produced. There are just a finite number of consumers in the world.

Many of the products are no longer manufactured in the United States. VCRs were not made in the US--automobles are not made in the US unless they have Japanese names. Exactly what products are you talking about? The manufactureres you support have sent all the jobs overseas.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-03-26 08:00 PM |

You are correct. Greedy globalist/corporatist politicians allowed this to happen and we allowed them to do it by voting them into office and keeping them in office Manufacturers were even given tax incentives to send our jobs overseas. Globalist thugs like Bush use the word "protectionist" like it was a swear word as he literally spits that word from his lips.

Yet Bush and the other corporatist politicians refuse to stick up for Americans even when other countries use all sorts of protectionist policies for the benefit of their own countries. Bush even refuses to stand up for inequities -- such as copyright theft by China -- when Americans are abused.

We are seeing a dismantling of our nation in every worst way possible.

This one has been fun. Thanks ray, null, judas (check your cap locks) et al. I've been invited to dinner and will be back in a couple of hours if anyone is still up.

"I wonder what excuses they are going to make when we are well into the worst world depression in human history.

Posted by Ray "


I wonder what excuse free market fundies will make. They eliminated regulations put in place since the last great depression. They got their deregulation, privatization, tax cuts, "free trade" treaties, WTO, etc. They have had their way for 20 years. Now the chickens come home to roost.

Nulli is confusing cause and effect. The cost of government is hidden in everything we buy. He would like us to think that government has no effect on living standards.

Goat - College?

I've been invited to dinner and will be back in a couple of hours if anyone is still up.

Posted by goatman at 2008-03-26 08:12 PM

Enjoy a good meal while you can before you're stuck with the cooking on the rig for 2 weeks!

Now the chickens come home to roost.

Cluck, cluck, and the sky IS falling.

Nulli wants it both ways. He's been telling us for years that popular opinion rejects free markets in favor of government managed markets.

Those so-called free trade treaties are "free" in name only. Is Nulli naive enough to believe the follow the laissez faire model? If they did, there would be no need for for an agency to supervise them.

BUFFALOBOB

You are correct.

Posted by CalifChris at 2008-03-26 08:11 PM

Tattoo those three words on your butt.
I doubt you'll see them again from me for a long time.

Chris
I called my broker today about buying silver coins. Dealers are running out of them. The US mint stopped taking orders for silver eagles.

"Those so-called free trade treaties are "free" in name only."


That why I said "free trade" treaties rather than free trade treaties.

Ray

I've heard in a few places that silver is now very underpriced and it's going to go waaaaaay up. What's it running for an ounce now? 925 sterling is the kind of silver to buy, right?

Wealth, like water, seeks to level itself out.

Posted by goatman at 2008-03-26 07:59 PM

A hundred years of inflating the dollar is coming to an end when the dollar collapses. It's a natural consequence.

You are ignoring the detrimental affects caused by government intervention. What you say is true, but it will be much worse than it could have been.

Chris

In the past two weeks, it went from 21 to 17. It's coming back quickly. It's at 18.38 now.

If you can't get coins, go sterling. The artificially low price for the past few decades has hidden the decline of above the ground supplies. They have never been lower. You don't see fundamentals like this in a hundred years. It's got the potential to be more expensive than gold whatever the future price of gold may be.

That why I said "free trade" treaties rather than free trade treaties.

As long as we are clear these treaties have nothing to do with free market capitalism.

Ray

It's got the potential to be more expensive than gold whatever the future price of gold may be.

Posted by Ray at 2008-03-26 08:40 PM

Thanks. I heard that silver might have the potential to make more profit than gold -- cost/profit made. I couldn't afford to buy in on the gold market now anyway. Silver -- now that may be another story.

"As long as we are clear these treaties have nothing to do with free market capitalism."

Anytime you reduce trade barriers such as tariffs you are moving in the direction of free market capitalism. There will never be "perfect" free trade any more than there will ever be "perfect" free market capitalism.

Free trade and free market capitalism has to be evaluated on the basis of real world practices, not abstract economic models, whether they be devised by Austrian or neoclassical economists.

There is no free trade between nations, but there is between states, cities and individuals. Trade barriers inhibit the flow of resources between individuals which is why they are counterproductive.

Market manipulation by politicians and their apparatchiks has always ended in disaster. There is plenty of historical experience to back up Austrian theory. That is why I am so confident this depression will be many magnitudes worse than anyone can imagine.

That is why I am so confident this depression will be many magnitudes worse than anyone can imagine.

Posted by Ray at 2008-03-26 09:15 PM | Reply


I've been predicting it for 20 years, Ray. Still people are laughing at me and telling me I'm nutz. Of course most of those people laughing at me are usually government employess in debt up to their ass thinking their jobs can never end.

A 70 percent services economy and 50 percent of the population employed by government is a recipe for disaster.

"I've been predicting it for 20 years, Ray. "

You predict enough things for long enough, sooner or later you might get something right. Ask Jeane Dixon.

The three steps to truth.
First the laugh at you. Then they argue with you. Then they accept you.

Read my comments about silver above. The rush to get out of dollar based financial assets will be like the proverbial camel trying to get through the eye of a needle.

Nulli - if you don't mind me saying, you are pathetically ignorant. I have books written in the seventies where the writers couldn't imagine inflation would last much longer. They were wrong on the timing because it's grown worse than they imagined. In the past six months, it's grown worse than I imagined.

To give a simple example. When a man is borrowing more than he is earning, it's hard to predict WHEN he will run out of credit. But it is safe to say, he WILL run out of credit. Every trend has its turning point.

" I have books written in the seventies where the writers couldn't imagine inflation would last much longer."

Perhaps you forget titles like "The Coming Depression of...1980/1985/1990/2000 etc.

One of these days, one of these books might be right. Big deal.

I just explained why timing is hard to predict, but trends always have turning points. A debt inflation cycle like the one we have had to come to a disastrous end.

That's the kind of stupid know-nothing answer I have come to expect from you. Enough for today.

Ray

The rush to get out of dollar based financial assets will be like the proverbial camel trying to get through the eye of a needle.


A serious question --

Do you see a run on the banks where one could not get the money in their savings/checking accounts out when they wanted it? I know accounts are insured (FDIC?) for up to $100 grand but I'm sure there'd be a long wait and MUCH paperwork involved to claim any money that had been lose via a bank going belly up.


So, is our cash safe in the bank?
If not, what do you suggest doing with it to insure one's money is not lost?

THIS IS SAD! I LIVE HERE!

It is no doubt true if not an understatement. The rural areas of Ohio are probably hit worse. I feel sorry for the many that drive the big diesel trucks around with diesel being 4.30/gallon.

Ohio is hit hard. I see so many stores that closed shop such as Comp USA, Don Pablos and many many small businesses and large ones too.

There are so many foreclosures and sheriff sales. The predators are here also. One small town near me of 7000 has a Payday, Money now, Quick Cash and some other off name loan shark.

The County offices are actually eliminating positions in government due to lack of construction and struggling with their own funding. Which is bad when the local government gets rid of entire positions.

Gotta love Ohio. Rain, Snow, Sleet and Sun in one day.

I just explained why timing is hard to predict, but trends always have turning points. A debt inflation cycle like the one we have had to come to a disastrous end.

Trends. Cycles. Do you realize what you are saying, Ray? just as was said upthread, you can predict busts. You will eventually be right. But you will have said nothing of substance.

I am also tired of in almost every big screen movie they always have the loser character as being from Ohio.

Where are you from Ohio? I hear this all the time.

True, I have never really seen a celebrity or anyone famous. Which is kind of funny. But on the flip side I have seen a lot of good people lose their jobs due to NAFTA. I have seen Amish hiring illegal Mexicans. I have also eaten lunch in diners hearing the Amish labor force complaining about Mexican labor.

Construction is down. Jobs are scarce.

Come visit Ohio and spend some money. We need it. LOL!

Good thing they went for Bush in 2004!

"Trends. Cycles. Do you realize what you are saying, Ray? just as was said upthread, you can predict busts. You will eventually be right. But you will have said nothing of substance.

Posted by goatman "

Correct again, Goatman. Regardless of whether you love or hate capitalism, or are neutral, predicting a bust is not very impressive. Busts are inevitable.

Well, since everything thinks Ohio is always beging bashed --

I love the song "Banks of the Ohio" sung by Joan Baez.

Hope that makes you Ohio folks feel better.

everything = everyone

UNCLESAM

I would really like to visit the Amish area of Ohio some day.
I also hear it's beautiful country around there.

Joan Baez

blech

(sorry cc)

Joan Baez

blech

(sorry cc)

-- Goatman

That's okay, Goatman.

I'll keep her off that "Zappa, Elvis and Eagles" list. (grin)

Reminds me of an old joke that was aimed at her and her ilk, though never named.

"I'd like to help save the world's children and bring global peace, but I don't know any folk songs."

So we have 10% of the populace on food stamps in one state and 90% who are not.

Wonder what the odds are that a Governor will bring to the populace except more taxes.

The creative and earners are leaving the state--because they can. Leaving the folks who live off the remaining taxpayers.

Sounds like Detroit and MI entirely....

If the Gov. made the incentives friendly they could get the businesses to come there instead of AL.

Or they remaining folks could just leave. Look again to ILL and MI.

Murphy

If Ohio and other rustbelt states like my own state of Michigan can't compete with Mississippi and Alabama, what makes you think NAFTA is to blame?
According to the Brookings Institution the Great Lakes Basin is the second largest economy in the world, second only to the US's.

I think the important question is how many of those 10% of welfare recipients are abusing the system. My friend administers the federal welfare program for Oregon. The people he reports to in the federal gov don't care about abusers. Everytime he reports one, they say CTC..

5.3% is not an out of control unemployment rate. Sounds like Ohio and the federal government should audit who is receiving welfare.

I can assure you the standard of living in the south is much much much higher than any of the rust belt states. You call antiquated infrastructures and shitty weather and arrogant fat and lazy people a higher standard of living. I have been forced to have to visit the north and every other state in this country and canada and not one of them can even touch even the poorest southern state in terms of standard of living.

And in your ignorance when you see some idiot whose trailer park got blown away by a tornado, make sure you stay ignorant and say, 'hum, everyone in the south is just like that'. And when you see some fat idiot union slob from ohio whining, make sure you say, 'hum, poor guy, not getting his due'.

Someone needs to tell the north that they are swirling down the drain of insignificance in this new century.

Califchris

Ohio is a nice quiet place to live. Most of the Amish area relies on construction for a living.

It is probably one of the few places you can leave your wallet in your unlocked truck and never worry about anyone stealing your money or your equipment.

Don't play the Amish in baseball. They are good!

The Amish are not effected by the high gas prices either. A lot of them use wind energy and solar panels on their homes.

How does one get food stamps.
I would love it is funny gave me a $100 a month so I could buy food.

The Federal gov't should give it to everyone and not just poor people

I guess what I am saying is, get the bums and the sponges off of the government tit and maybe we could support the folks who are legitimately having a tough time.


Fine, start with Congress, then the occupants of the Whitehouse. Might as well continue with all Federal judges too.

The Federal gov't should give it to everyone and not just poor people


Yeah! A-Rod and T. Owens are starving for sure.

No battleplan stands unchanged after the first encounter with the enemy. No theory, political, economic, social, remains unchanged after encountering reality. Reality very much guarantees that no "pure" form of any theory will survive within it. And, history shows that attempts to force any "pure theory" to continue to exist will lead to disaster.

Humans exist in timeframes of minutes, hours and days. "Forces", political, economic, social, act and selfcorrect in timeframes of years, decades, centuries. To allow ones life to be controlled by any force, without in some measure controlling that force, is the height of stupidity.
My two cents.

Never been to Ohio myself, don't feel that I ever will. Hate the Buckeyes, as overrated as they are. Love to watch them fall.

My friend has gone there for his job at least once a year and he despises the place! He has to hire temp laborers and says that they are just flat out lazy. Suits them right. they are sapping the state's taxes. Pity.

I've got a real challenge for you. Try and find a simple garden hose nozzle anymore that doesn't leak water at every joint or break into pieces if you drop it on the driveway. All that I can find are cheap crap. I'm thinking that this year I'll just fabricate one from a gate valve and a pipe nipple.

Try and find a simple garden hose nozzle anymore that doesn't leak water at every joint or break into pieces if you drop it on the driveway

You cannot sell a quality manufactured item at WalMart and still make obscene gobs of money for the CEO.

I live here.
It is rough for far too many.
It is going to get a lot worse.
Most of the business in Ohio get tax breaks and incentives that have robbed the schools. They dont want to pay taxes and they dont want to train their neigbors. Loss of profit. Then they own your education.
Govco. has pumped more than $400 billion into the financial system, just to keep investors from fleeing a totally bankrupt system.
These are the same people whom determine, on the grand scale, what you are worth to their efforts.
They toss penny's at you, and you just dance and dance!

Yet they are too good to work for AT&T at a low wage. As long as we take care of them, why should they work for any wage?

I think I just figgured it out. They don't speek Eenglish well enough to work for AT&T.

Food Stamps are at the the highest level in state history, but unemployment in Ohio is only 5.3%?

Godalmighty. What did people do in the 1970's?

A great deal of the problems in Michigan and Ohio are because of Michigan and Ohio. How many foreign firms have put plants there? How many state companies have chosen to expand out-of-state, or out of the country? The differences in growth and employment between right-to-work states, and the ones that are not--are too enormous to ignore any longer. When MI and OH relax their union-friendly and economy-unfriendly rules, things might change.

Their call, though.

A great deal of the problems in Michigan and Ohio are because of Michigan and Ohio.

NO, a great deal of the problems in Michigan and Ohio are because the Democratic Party has held sway there.

Get ready America, Democrats will be bringing a Michigan jobs-bank to your neighborhood!

I live in Ohio, and I will testify to it being the anus of America.

Ohio gives tax breaks to everyone. Except its citizens.
Business complains, but most only claim pennies on the dollar. The get deferments and abatements,special exempt status to rob the schools of funding, then pass the buck onto the citizen. When the perks run out, they close shop.
We pay for everything. They own the secondary schools thru endowments and other funding for specific directive use. Several hundred million of our tax dollars every year to support semi-pro college sports while thousands cannot afford tuition.

Perhaps we should have forced american companies operating under the laws and protection of this nation to pay the wages they paid americans when they shipped jobs out. Especially since we helped to create the industries that now compete with us. But then, they are only american companies in name only.

raise the friggin limits!!!!

Before these people lost their jobs, I'd like some answers:

How much was your yearly income?
How much was your mortgage or rent payment per month?
How much would you spend, each day, on breakfast, lunch, and dinner?
How much was spent 'going out to eat'?
How much was your utilities?

Now that we got passed the necessities of life...

How much did you pay per month on Cable?
How much did you pay on smokes and booze?
How much did you pay per month on your credit cards?
How much credit is left on those credit cards?
How many cell phones do you have and how much text messaging do you do?
How much are you spending on your ISP?
DO you need it?
DO you need any of the crap you're spending on?

How much did you invest and/or save?

You lost your job. Considering your assets and savings, what's your problem?

Spending at home like Congress does is not sustainable. It isn't just the Congress that is tanking America. Americans are tanking themselves because of lacking control.

Need vs. want.

........if we keep up the same antipathy to public education, and the same policies on foreign trade, that only benefits the Walton family & their ilk........

........then we will turn into a larger version of Mexico within one or two decades........

........don't think it can't happen.........

I live in Ohio, and I will testify to it being the anus of America.


Posted by ChickenInOven

close, but the anus is in Indiana

These must be those republitards I've heard about. One in ten on food stanmps yet they listen to Rush Limbaugh to cross vote for Hillary who owns NAFTA. Just proves how stupid people can be. These are the same people that call his show with testimony on how they lost their good paying job with benefits and are now working two or three jobs with no benefits just to get a pat on the back from the host. How sad.