This can be good or bad news. At least GM did not cave in so quickly just to avoid a strike.

A while ago I read a case study about Caterpillar Inc. Then CEO Donald Fites fought the UAW from 1991-1998 in order to get rid of pattern bargaining, and to obtain a two-tier wage sytem and flexible scheduling. The company was making record profits and revenues despite the many strikes and work stoppages and so on. What we neeed here in the auto industry is a Donald Fites hardliner who is willing to stick it out. Unfortunately, I am afraid that whatever deal they will make with the UAW now will have cosequences that wiill still be felt 20 or 30 years from now.

Unions sucking the life out of American companies again. Isn't it grand, but the union bullies will win again.

Well, once they have really made the US auto industry totally uncompetitive they can follow those auto manufacturing jobs out of the country.

Well, once they have really made the US auto industry totally uncompetitive they can follow those auto manufacturing jobs out of the country.

Even if they were, they're still heading out of the country. Whether it's 5 years, 10 or 20, those jobs are headed out of the country.

Unions sucking the life out

Yeah, it's the union guys who design automobiles that are inferior to Toyota and Nissan.

They're also the ones who keep voting more stock options for the CEO.

Evil union guys.

Mexican scabs or bust! The New American Way!

Mexican scabs...
That sounds like something you would get after a night in Tijuana.

GM still makes cars in this country?

What about the GM workers in Canada and Mexico? Are they on strike too?

Canada will be fine.

Seeing how their major exports are donuts and hockey players.

Wow, nice putting together both entries about this topic. I don't think I've seen this before.

The American automobile industry has put itself in this position. The UAW has worked hard, through dwindling membership, to strengthen the industry. However, American CEO's just can't get past the dollar as they make it right now, and so the industry keeps pumping out crap. GM is a textbook case of corporate and investor greed, crappy products, and a piss-poor attitude toward change.

You can't blame the UAW if you design and build a crappy car.

You're argument is similar to: You can't blame the passengers of the Titanic because the captain is a moron and ran into an iceberg.

Nevertheless, the ship is sinking and the people in it have to take drastic action to save themselves.

"Yeah, it's the union guys who design automobiles that are inferior to Toyota and Nissan."

Well yeah, if you don't consider style performance or lower prices Toyota and Nissan are far superior.

Then CEO Donald Fites fought the UAW from 1991-1998 in order to get rid of pattern bargaining, and to obtain a two-tier wage sytem and flexible scheduling.

Wow, you parrot the corporate line quite well. Been to a few management training sessions?
Here's the translation:

two-tier wage system- we can hire temps and get rid of older workers

flexible scheduling- we can change your hours whenever we feel like it

I didn't know we even had any unions left in this country since we've been under total corporatist rule since 2000.

Then CEO Donald Fites fought the UAW from 1991-1998 in order to get rid of pattern bargaining, and to obtain a two-tier wage sytem and flexible scheduling.

They did the two-tier wage system here in California three years ago when three major supermarkets went on strike. It didn't work -- lots of friction among the workers and the cheaper paid lower tier workers got more working hours.

flexible scheduling -- in "corporate-speak" that means they will keep your hours just below the minimum of 29 hours per week needed to be covered by the company's health insurance plan.

You can't blame the UAW if you design and build a crappy car.

Posted by FredFlintstone at 2007-09-24 02:21 PM

Yes you can if you ignore facts.

in "corporate-speak" that means they will keep your hours just below the minimum of 29 hours per week needed to be covered by the company's health insurance plan.

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-24 02:51 PM | Reply

Wal Mart is terrific for allowing employees to work 38 hours per week. Just two short of health insurance... sorry... try again next week.

the idiots who run the unions are the same kind of who run the Post Office, run MLK in south central, and will finish the pathetic job that the was begun 50 years ago by both parties...........

Will anyone actually notice that they are on strike seeing as nobody buys their cars these days anyway? I read somewhere a while back that the only profit GM makes these days is on finance charges, it hasn't made a dime selling cars for donkey's years. Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China.

"Well yeah, if you don't consider style performance or lower prices Toyota and Nissan are far superior. mance or lower prices Toyota and Nissan are far superior."

Had to read that thrice...almost fell out my chair!

Oh...you weren't joking...Point by point, then...

1) Style? GM copies Japanese style from at least a generation from what's on the market now -- and does it poorly.

2) Performance? Yeah, gotta love those pushrod engines that sound like a Singer. Most GM passenger cars are shod with tires more suitable for the rental fleets to which a large amount of said GM cars will find homes.

3) Price? Can't argue with you there. For some reason, GM needs to give large incentives to get people to buy their crap (remember the "employee discounts"?). Funny, Nissan, Honda and Toyota don't seem to need sales tricks to move cars. Oh, and lest I forget: please research some resale values for comparable models/years and see what you come up with. Value amortized over time should also be a factor when considering price. If the GM car is going to be worth half of what you paid for it new in five years, yet a comparable Honda that may have cost a bit more will retain 75 percent of its value over the same period, which is really the better deal?

Mexican scabs...
That sounds like something you would get after a night in Tijuana.

Posted by JeffnDenmark


FF for Jeff!! Effin' funny@!

"Well yeah, if you don't consider style performance or lower prices Toyota and Nissan are far superior. mance or lower prices Toyota and Nissan are far superior."

The illusion of superior quality in foreign cars is just that... an illusion.

FF for Jeff!! Effin' funny@!

Posted by MrFair at 2007-09-24 03:01 PM

If you think that is so darn funny....you might want to consider getting a life.

If you think that is so darn funny....you might want to consider getting a life.

Posted by ride_on

Maybe you should consider getting a sense of humor. You know - ha ha?

you might want to consider getting a life.

Posted by ride_on at 2007-09-24 03:11 PM | Reply

lighten up francis

1) Style? GM copies Japanese style from at least a generation from what's on the market now -- and does it poorly."
Yup like the vett, trucks, impala, monte carlo, cobalt, hhr, GTO.
But you can have the aveo you know the one manufactured by sazuki.


2) Performance? Yeah, gotta love those pushrod engines that sound like a Singer. Most GM passenger cars are shod with tires more suitable for the rental fleets to which a large amount of said GM cars will find homes.


Those pushrod engines, is that supposed to be an insult? Although Their 4 and six cyl are soch or dohc they employ pushrods in their trucks and high performance motors.
So does nissan or toyota have a eleven second car?
How about honda?
yeah there are some supercars out there but any besides the vette that are under 75,000?

As for the tires, they are 60,000 mile tires they last longer.

Style? GM copies Japanese style from at least a generation from what's on the market now -- and does it poorly.


Could you be more specific - I don't see it that way.


Performance? Yeah, gotta love those pushrod engines that sound like a Singer.

Pushrod engines don't take up as much space under the hood as do overhead cam engines. GM is wise to continue to use them in some applications (GM offers a wide array of overhead cam engines as well). Also, GM's pushrod V-8's perform favorably against almost all of their competitors' overhead cam V8's - this is particularly true in regards to trucks and SUV's.


Most GM passenger cars are shod with tires more suitable for the rental fleets to which a large amount of said GM cars will find homes.


That simply depends on the model within the model. For those who wish to have more rubber, Sport packages are avaialable on most of their products. Fact is, those tires that you bemoan are more workable in poor weather conditions (snow and ice) than larger, lower-profile tires.


Price? Can't argue with you there. For some reason, GM needs to give large incentives to get people to buy their crap (remember the "employee discounts"?). Funny, Nissan, Honda and Toyota don't seem to need sales tricks to move cars. Oh, and lest I forget: please research some resale values for comparable models/years and see what you come up with. Value amortized over time should also be a factor when considering price. If the GM car is going to be worth half of what you paid for it new in five years, yet a comparable Honda that may have cost a bit more will retain 75 percent of its value over the same period, which is really the better deal?


You raise a lot of good points here - very little for me to contradict.

Re-sale (residual value) is huge when calculating leasing rates. The fact that Japanese cars tend to have higher residuals makes them more attractive in terms of lease payments, which is a primary reason why the likes of GM and Ford discount so heavily (the gap between sale price and residual value is really what determines the cost of a lease, among some other factors. Incentives are offered to reduce the level of gap between sale price and residual value).

What about the GM workers in Canada and Mexico? Are they on strike too?

They're not on strike but the feeder plants will soon shut down, as well as those who get parts from American plants.

And, of course, the outside vendors will shut down. Big ripple effect.

Maybe even in China...

Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China.

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt

Too late. GM sells a shitload of cars overseas already. Most are fuel efficient small cars that Americans are too moronic to buy. Buick is the official state car of the Chinese government.

So does nissan or toyota have a eleven second car?
How about honda?
yeah there are some supercars out there but any besides the vette that are under 75,000?

Why do you need an 11 second car? Why does anybody?
Are you 17 or something?
Maybe you live 1/4 mile away from work and you need to get there in 11 seconds?
Ridiculous and mind numbingly stupid.

"Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China."


When does one lose sight that these people are not just 'union workers'? These people are Americans.
These people are Americans who are faced with the same cold reality as all other Americans, whether belonging to the UAW or not...Given the opportunity Corporate America has proven time and time again that they would take an ant farm overseas just to increase their profit margins and will not so much as take their next breath before forgetting about the American worker they left behind.

Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China.

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt

Every company is doing this, whether they're union or not. Whose fault is it when a non-union shop closes up and goes to Mexico?
How do you explain the booming steel and auto industry in Canada?

Given the opportunity Corporate America has proven time and time again that they would take an ant farm overseas just to increase their profit margins and will not so much as take their next breath before forgetting about the American worker they left behind.

Posted by MsChris

What about the Japanese automakers that have taken jobs away from Japan and put them here in the USA?

"""How do you explain the booming steel and auto industry in Canada?"""

Strong unions and lobbying.

Ah yes. The predictable American car versus Japanese car argument.

Anymore though, the argument becomes so muddled as to be nonsensical. What constitutes an American car these days?

GM is buying engines from China.

Subaru is building cars in Tennessee.

Ford builds cars in Mexico.

Saturn is designing passenger cars that are based off of Opel platforms. (In fact, the new Saturn Astra is an Opel Astra, built in Belgium.)

Small Mazda pickup trucks are really Ford Rangers, or is it the other way around.

The Pontiac GTO is based off of Aussie designs by Holden (down under GM).

What about the Japanese automakers that have taken jobs away from Japan and put them here in the USA?

Posted by MrFair at 2007-09-24 03:53 PM |

An obvious strategy to have amuricans "buy amurican".

Plus Japan ain't quite comparable to China...ie. not quite an "ant farm".

From my link above:

In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson.

"Most people don't think of our health-care system as being a competitive advantage," he said.

Tanguay said Toyota's decision on where to build its seventh North American plant was "not only about money."

"It's about being in the right place," he said, noting the company can rely on the expertise of experienced Cambridge workers to help get Woodstock up and running.

Ridiculous and mind numbingly stupid.

Posted by RastaCyborg at 2007-09-24 03:29 PM | Reply

Don't infringe on people's right to drive stupid now.

BTW I laugh my ass of when I see someone weaving in and out of rush hour traffic like a moron only to get stuck behind some old granny doing 50. I love it!

A hex on all american cars!

Rusty buckets of obsolete shit.

Glory days for sure but you can't ride a reputation for 40 years and expect to survive.

Zot,

I agree. The illusion of Japanes cars being better than US cars is just that... an illusion.

"What about the Japanese automakers that have taken jobs away from Japan and put them here in the USA?"

Posted by MrFair


Hmmm, lets see... Since 2001, Roughly 2.5 million manufacturing jobs and close to 1 million professional service and information sector jobs have been lost to the American worker, right here in the good ol' USA. How many jobs would you say that Japan has replaced?

The illusion of Japanes cars being better than US cars is just that... an illusion....

I loved my Toyota Corolla. Only recently got rid of it and it lasted for years.

"Ridiculous and mind numbingly stupid."

So what are your hobbies? do you fish or play computer games? is john Force and tony Schumacher childish?


"Most are fuel efficient small cars that Americans are too moronic to buy"


yea like a atorm or a swift. come on, if someone wants a decent car they are a moron? sorry buddy keep your 89 civic or new prius some of the rest of us want a real car.

Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China.

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt

Why would you wish that?

Last time I checked it just was not the Union involved in the negotiations. There are two sides to this.

Being a blind corporate apologist will prevent you from seeing what is really going on.

I loved my Toyota Corolla. Only recently got rid of it and it lasted for years.

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-24 04:05 PM | Reply |

Love is an emotion. A feeling. That is part of the illusion. The most recent quality studies back up that American made cars are on par with Japanese cars.

726

What part of GM is not making any money do you not understand? You cannot run a business that way, eventually you go tits up. So what is it to be, cuts in pay and benefits which will hurt in the short term (and I am including CEOs on down with those cuts by the way) or closing of the plant completely, which will hurt alot more in the long term. It looks to be simple economics to me, being an alleged blind corporate apologist has little or nothing to do with it.

I understand fully that GM is not making money.

Does that stop the CEO from taking his pay and perks? Share the pain.

Both sides enter into the contract so to place all the blame on the Union is not being quite honest now is it?

Take a look at what the CEO/Mgt is making and then see if they are sharing the pain.

I just love how Delphi demanded a 1/3 pay cut for the workers in bankruptcy then asked the judge to approve millions of dollars in bonuses.

Too late. GM sells a shitload of cars overseas already. Most are fuel efficient small cars that Americans are too moronic to buy.

Why do you need an 11 second car? Why does anybody?
Are you 17 or something?
Maybe you live 1/4 mile away from work and you need to get there in 11 seconds?
Ridiculous and mind numbingly stupid.

Posted by RastaCyborg

I understand fully that GM is not making money.

Does that stop the CEO from taking his pay and perks?

No. And that sucks. However, it wouldn't change the profit picture of the company. Which is the point.

What could be done to fix the woes of the American Auto Industry?

All partianship aside.

What could be done to fix the woes of the American Auto Industry?


The problem is much larger than this, but a good place to start would be to recognize that the mid-size family sedan is the bedrock to the long-term viability of any mainstream automaker.


Chrysler has a good product in the 300C/Charger line. However, those vehicles are slightly above the mid-size threshold. In the mid-size threshold we are really looking at the Sebring line, which ain't cuttin' it.

GM also has 2 product-lines straddling the mid-size segment. The Pontiac G6 (formerly known as Grand Am)and her counterparts - which is a mediocre line. Pontiac is about to release the G8 (formerly known as Grand Prix) which will have its divisional equivalents (Chevy, Buick, etc) as well. The current inhabitants are inadequate (Buick Lacrosse, Chevy Impala, etc).


Ford has the Fusion, which drives very well AND it outscored the Camry and Accord in JD Power for initial quality. Ford redesigned the tepid 500 and resurrected the Taurus badge. It's a pretty good vehicle now with a shitload of interior and trunk space.

Actually, love is a decision. There are emotions and feelings that go along with, of course.

I'll leave aside your assertion that American cars are "on par with Japanese" ones. I simply don't believe it, but you're free to decide for yourself. But the market simply doesn't agree. Compare the resale values of a Lincoln Navigator and a Lexus SUV, or a Honda Civic versus anything by Ford. If American cars are made better, that sure is a surprise to tens of millions of used-car buyers.

Today, the average CEO makes 400x what the average, everyday worker earns. In other words, today's CEO is earning an average annual salary of $10 million a year. Keep in mind, that the average worker will not see $10 million in their lifetime.


"What part of GM is not making any money do you not understand? You cannot run a business that way, eventually you go tits up."

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt


Clearly, well at least this makes sense to me, if GM were truely "tits up" someone, somewhere along the lines would suggest that GM revert back to 1965, when the average CEO was only pulling in 20x more than the average worker. Did you hear me? Just 20x more...

You can have Your glorified Volkswagon Zat I will stick to the MayBach. Least I can make out in the back recliner seats without getting a fucking Charley Horse. Even though the base price for one is in the neighborhood of 350 Grand.

Larry

Posted by JeffJ :

"Most of the 'rednecks' this post was likely addressed to simply can't tow a trailer with a Prius, or load up the trunk of a prius with 1000 lbs of concrete."

Yes, but:

Toyota Tundra

Nissan Titan

The Japanese have encroached on what was once sacred US turf: the American pickem-up truck.

"Who 'needs' a plasma screen TV? Yet, the fact that some people 'want' a plasma screen TV doesn't mean they shouldn't shop around for the best value. "

I wanted one. I needed one. I shopped around for one. I have one. I looooove my 42-inch Panasonic Viera plasma TV. I hug it every day. We're getting married soon.

Pancho,

I didn't click the link, but I don't need to.

'Lotuscars'.


You'd be talking about the Lotus Exige and Elise. Yes, on the handling circuit they outperform just about everything. They also lack even the most basic of amenitites. Try taking the wife on a weekend sojourn in an Elise. Better hope your wife really likes the clothes on her back cuz the car doesn't have any cargo space (the Vette has 22 cubic feet). Better travel with earplugs as the drone of that Toyota 1.8 4 cylinder gets quite tiresome over anything longer than a short distance.


The Elise/Exige is a niche vehicle. It's a car intended for the track that is barely street legal. Don't get me wrong, it's a great vehicle. However to compare it with a Vette is comparing apples to oranges.

Hmmm, lets see... Since 2001, Roughly 2.5 million manufacturing jobs and close to 1 million professional service and information sector jobs have been lost to the American worker, right here in the good ol' USA. How many jobs would you say that Japan has replaced?

Posted by MsChris


Oh - I thought we were talking cars, not entire manufacturing industries. Silly me.

Tell Me something. What is the capacity of the trunk space of a Prius?? ANYONE know??

Larry

"Least I can make out in the back recliner seats"

You gonna drive it or fuck it?

Zot,


The Tundra and the Titan are both credible entries into the pickup truck market.

Larry,


I could easily find out.


Off the top of my head I'd guess 10 cubic feet.

Did you hear me? Just 20x more...

Posted by MsChris

This is a clear difference vs. the Japanese for sure. I don't know the stats but knowing Japanese culture I'm pretty sure their execs are not making 400x the average Joe.

BOTH Zat for 350 THOUSAND Dollars wouldn't YOU want to get Your monies worth out of it??

Larry

This is why GM is such a supporter of Bush's "Guest Worker" program.

Soon, they won't only be caring for your kids and lawn, they'll be building your cars too.....and the cars will still suck because American cars suck big green moose cock. Except the Jeep Wrangler!

Let's see...

Given the opportunity Corporate America has proven time and time again that they would take an ant farm overseas just to increase their profit margins and will not so much as take their next breath before forgetting about the American worker they left behind. Posted by MsChris

"What about the Japanese automakers that have taken jobs away from Japan and put them here in the USA?" Posted by MrFair at 2007-09-24 03:53 PM

Hmmm, lets see... Since 2001, Roughly 2.5 million manufacturing jobs and close to 1 million professional service and information sector jobs have been lost to the American worker, right here in the good ol' USA. How many jobs would you say that Japan has replaced? Posted by MsChris


"Oh - I thought we were talking cars, not entire manufacturing industries. Silly me."

Posted by MrFair at 2007-09-24 05:00 PM | Reply



No, no, no...Silly me. I thought your 3:53 post was an inquiry with a direct specific regard to the amount of jobs that the Japanese automaker had put here in the USA. What was I thinking???

And, I suppose you will tell me and everyone else what the 'facts' are.

As a manufacturing engineer for close to 25 years, and one who has worked with the UAW in farm equipment manufacturing, I can tell you that the 'facts' remains quite simple and constant: that those who design, engineer, manufacture, market, and profit from manufacturing output control ALL of the forces that allow it to be a successful enterprise. A manufacturers willingness to procure, train, and hold on to skilled production employees is equal to it's own commitment to it's own products. Cutting corners in design, engineering, manufacturing and personell in order to maximize profits to investors is, historically AND factually, a self-fulfilling prophecy of doom to the corporation. See Studebaker, American Motors, US Steel (pre-1983), Allis-Chalmers, International Harvester as some of the most classic examples.

I say remove the back seats of the Prius. If You are haulling 1000 pounds of Cement You don't need the back seats and I believe getting the bags of cement in will be no problems. Now You MAY have to add roller skates to the back end of the Prius just to keep it from tipping towards the rear. It's doable.

Larry

"The Tundra and the Titan are both credible entries into the pickup truck market."


I'll give you the toyota, always been a good truck. the titan has yet to be proven to me. They are both half-tons, there is no forgin truck that can compare with a 2500 and up or a f250 and up(purposely left out dodge as they have yet to make a decent truck)

"""Better hope your wife really likes the clothes on her back cuz"""

Clothes? What clothes. Bikini and a handbag.


I'd rather get shot in the face than to drive a vette built after '68.

No, no, no...Silly me. I thought your 3:53 post was an inquiry with a direct specific regard to the amount of jobs that the Japanese automaker had put here in the USA. What was I thinking???

Posted by MsChris

No I never said anything about the amount of jobs. I was really asking that in the context of companies moving things to other countries, but nothing comparing numbers. And I was only referring to the automobile industry.

Members of the United Automobile Workers union walked off the job today at General Motors

Shouldn't it say "Members of the United Automobile Workers union are delusional to think that their jobs are not expendable so they should consider themselves lucky they still have a job in America manufacturing cars"

BOWA,

In all fairness, I suppose that statement should be appropriately applied to any American worker whether a Union member or not.

-MsChris

In all fairness, I suppose that statement should be appropriately applied to any American worker whether a Union member or not.

I wouldn't say it could be be applied to any american worker, but I would agree that every american manufacturing workers job is threatened by foreign competition.

But that is just the way things work, as economies change and grow.

At one time, we were the manufacturing center of the world, and now it is China and India.

And when the workers in those nations start to reap the benefits of global capitalist largesse, then the manufacturing center will move to another place that can produce goods at a lower cost.

At one time, we were the manufacturing center of the world, and now it is China and India.

And when the workers in those nations start to reap the benefits of global capitalist largesse, then the manufacturing center will move to another place that can produce goods at a lower cost.

Posted by Bowa

I recently saw an article from 100 years ago (will try to remember what it was - maybe The Atlantic?) about India and China taking over the textile trade and stealing American jobs. 100 years ago.

726 and MsChris

Do you people not read posts, but just cherry pick the bits that suit your purpose? When I was talking about cutbacks in GM I specifically said the following:

"cuts in pay and benefits which will hurt in the short term (and I am including CEOs on down with those cuts by the way)"

But of course you conveniently developed a form of point blindness when it came to that comment and immediately used "what about the CEOs?" to attack my premise. This wealth envy thing is a nasty disease, I hope its not contagious.

"General Motors' automotive operations have a combined working capital position of deficit $15.4 billion."

So the UAW striking is going to help this situation how?. It appears to me that going on strike to get a better deal with a company who has a deficit of 15.4 billion is akin to literally killing the goose that lays the golden egg. If the union cannot see that then they deserve every pink slip that is undoubtedly in their future.

Right now GM spends more money on servicing the retirement and benefits of past workers that were "negotiated" (read blackmailed under threat of strike) by the unions, than they do paying the pay and benefits of current workers, no company can survive with that kind of burden, ESPECIALLY when they can't produce a product that people actually want to buy.

...Do you people not read posts, but just cherry pick the bits that suit your purpose?...

It's much more fun that way.

These poeple have the last of the non-outsourced manufacturing jobs and they won't be happy till their all unemployed and some goof in Equador is making his car for 2 bucks a day...Stupiud Unions

I got admire these rightie tighties, they could careless about our soldiers abroad in iraq and apparently they could careless about our workers here in America.

How in the fuck can they call themselves a patriotic American.

They root for a single entity Corporation over the benefit of millions of Americans. How fucked up is that?

GM owes millions and millions of dollars to the pension fund and you all dismiss it like it is the fault of the workers.

A contract is a fucking contract and you rightie tighties seem to think a contract is only valid and honored if it benefits the Corporations. Where do you get your values?

I struggle and struggle to understand and make any sense of this with you righties but just can't see why anyone ever would listen to you about anything knowing how convoluted and lack in common sense and morals you clearly show.

If GM can't help the WORKER in America, fuck GM, they are NO GOOD to AMERICA then. How come you can't seem to get that through you bloody head.

Your rightie tighties think it is great to go to Iraq and get Iraqi oil for the betterment of our nation but then turn on the American people for wanting to keep the living conditions they have here.

What kind of fucked up priority is that???

People really need to see your party for what it really is, not interested in the people of America.

These poeple have the last of the non-outsourced manufacturing jobs and they won't be happy till their all unemployed and some goof in Equador is making his car for 2 bucks a day...Stupiud Unions

The only stupid individual is YOU!!!

You are praising GM for taking jobs to Equador over Americans fighting to sustain their working conditions here in America.

A real American winner you are, mind dead and dumb!

$War,


A contract is a fucking contract


Yes.

Fact is, many of these workers (now retiring) made certain decisions based upon promises made via their employment contracts. Pension liabilities are tough, but they have to be honored IMO.



If GM can't help the WORKER in America, fuck GM, they are NO GOOD to AMERICA then.


I don't see how GM going belly-up is good for the UAW workers under her employ. Both parties are going to have to make some difficult concessions - yes, even the worker.

I wouldn't say it could be be applied to any american worker, but I would agree that every american manufacturing workers job is threatened by foreign competition.

Manufacturing is not threatened by foreign competition, there is no competition. American corporations are teaching, training, and moving their factories to foreign lands creating the loss of manufacturing. There is no competition if the companies are actually just moving creating the appearance of competition for just one thing...profit.

Our corporations are doing nothing but downing America for money, the real corporate patriotism and it is being praised by these republican righties as the correct thing to do.

I don't see how GM going belly-up is good for the UAW workers under her employ. Both parties are going to have to make some difficult concessions - yes, even the worker.

The difference here is GM wants the employees to continue making the sacrifice so GM can continue to gain in the profits.

Well, the workers have been sacrificing for some years now and GM still doesn't change. Maybe the workers need to say enough, GM lose some of the profit and just maybe the responsibility will change because the money loss is not from the worker but from those who are making the shitty decisions.

Stop making excuses for piss poor management and expecting the workers to take on the burden. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

Manufacturing is not threatened by foreign competition, there is no competition. American corporations are teaching, training, and moving their factories to foreign lands creating the loss of manufacturing. There is no competition if the companies are actually just moving creating the appearance of competition for just one thing...profit.


Are you suggesting that the entire automotive industry is 1 big trust?

If so, please elaborate.

If not, please clarify this statement.

Jeff J-
re: Manufacturing is not threatened by foreign competition, there is no competition. American corporations are teaching, training, and moving their factories to foreign lands creating the loss of manufacturing. There is no competition if the companies are actually just moving creating the appearance of competition for just one thing...profit.

He's got a point. Did you read about Mattel's apology to China? (use the googles on the internets)

$War,


The difference here is GM wants the employees to continue making the sacrifice so GM can continue to gain in the profits.


What profits?


Stop making excuses for piss poor management and expecting the workers to take on the burden. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

I recognize the GM managment has made it's share of shitty decisions and they bear responsibility for that. All of that said, we can't change the past. They are where they are and in order to go forward with the least burn accross the board, concessions on both sides are going to have to be made.

Jeff J.,

You are soo so naive about corporations.

The Japanese companies will continue to win because they are not only thinking about there company but also thinking about what is good for JAPAN.

U.S. corporations could careless about America, they are proving it everyday and continue to get repocon supporters trouncing on Americans for what they should be fighting for.

In America, the worker makes no decisions for the direction of the corporation but yet they pay for it. Now I call that responsibility.

What profits?

You don't sell something you lose money on and the fact you don't understand this would make you a questionable management asset for any company.

What profits?

You don't sell something you lose money on and the fact you don't understand this would make you a questionable management asset for any company.

$War,


If you want me to see things your way you are going to have to work at it. You are going to have to convince me.


Here's a hint: Operating under the assumption that I am a fucking idiot isn't helping your cause.

Here's a hint: Operating under the assumption that I am a fucking idiot isn't helping your cause.

Posted by JeffJ

I was about to post the same thing.

Money, I think Jeff has asked several good questions.

Jeff J.,

I apologize for the rhetorical condescention it was uncalled for, but am getting tired of the righties rooting for the demise of real Americans.

I know you understand the corporate arena and know full well that what one hears in the public mainstream is not near what is happening behind closed doors.

I equate it to a pro-sports team wanting to move from one city to another because they say they are losing money. On paper they may minipulate the data to suggest such but in reality they are gaining millions and am surprised you are taking the tacked that GM is a losing enterprise.

I have not read all of the demands of the UAW but from what I have read they are being very reasonable, it is GM who is being obtuse.

I equate it to a pro-sports team wanting to move from one city to another because they say they are losing money. On paper they may minipulate the data to suggest such but in reality they are gaining millions

Not a good analogy....how are their workers doing?

Eberly,

Yes, I agree, it is usually why I enjoy conversations with Jeff J. on occasions because he can sometimes be open and willing to converse with the idea of us both learning from our perspectives.

Year after year these corporate institutions say they are losing money and even reporting losses but yet they remain and yet they invest and buy other institutions. How can that be?????? Something is not being reported quite right I would say.

The UAW and its workers are not hurting GM, GM is hurting itself, GM is the decision maker.

The information thrown out is done by GM to cast the idea they are the harmed party and look what these evil workers are doing to our company.

If GM was asked to open their entire books so people could see exactly what the financial status truely was GM would say no. Why, because they don't want the real figures out.

It just shocks me to listen to people praising the Corporations and trounce on the worker like this corporation is the king of greatness and morality and out rightly looking out for what is best for this country.

Sad to say, those foreign corporations are looking out for what is best for their country.

Not a good analogy....how are their workers doing?

Afraid you missed the corporate point!

If GM was asked to open their entire books so people could see exactly what the financial status truely was GM would say no. Why, because they don't want the real figures out.

How do you know that? I'm not stumping for GM and the decisions they own, however, pretending to be broke????????? What does that do to their stock price? What is the financial impact of that?

All this to keep wages low?

that argument would hold more weight if these companies were privately held.

It's cool, Money.


I know this is a subject that you feel strongly about and I normally welcome some back and forth.

However, tonight I prefer to discuss this one rationally.

I understand the back-handedness and quick-buck mentality that is somewhat pervasive within corporate America. I also understand that the economic models that are so utilized by my side (not that we are taking sides) are never perfect, as they are reliant upon rational behavior, and people aren't always rational.


Part of the problem is that the value of unskilled labor has been artificially driven up. I've used one of my cousins as exhibit A in the past. He works on the line for Mazda. Between his pay and benefits he's able to support his family (wife and 3 kids) to a middle class lifestyle. However, his work on the line is unskilled and he's the first to admit it. I am ecstatic that a recovering alcholic who spent a bit of time in jail for petty theft was able to find, and keep, work that compensates him in such a manner. The problem is that people exist, all over the world, who are willing to perform the exact same work for less. This increasing labor supply drives down the value of said labor. These market forces are inescapable, no matter how hard we try.

Here's a couple of rhetorical questions for you to illustrate my point:

Should we avoid the use of robotics because it replaces human labor?

What about the agricultural plow?


Etc.


My point being, we don't cling to outdated technology because doing so hurts us long-term. With that analogy we need to recognize (unless you can persuade me otherwise) that manufacturing work doesn't bring home the bacon as well as it used to. Thereofore, we should be looking to steer our workforce into other areas. This is true of a lot of industries, products and companies. Example, I wouldn't invest in tape recorders - it's outdated technology.


Anyhow, I hope a coherent point came accross in this jumbled post.

Eberly,

Do you do your own taxes or do you take them to an accountant?

Accountant

Jeff J.
re: Anyhow, I hope a coherent point came accross in this jumbled post.

It did. What function do you perform that could not be outsourced to a much more eager and deserving foreign national?

$War,


If GM was asked to open their entire books so people could see exactly what the financial status truely was GM would say no. Why, because they don't want the real figures out.


Those books are audited by one of the big-5 accounting firms. Cooking those books can spell the end of said accounting firms, just ask Arthur Andersen.

My dad is a retired partner from one of those firms (NOT A. Andersen!). What you are suggesting simply doesn't jive with my understanding of how these things work; particularly in a publicly-held company.

Part of the problem is that the value of unskilled labor has been artificially driven up.

First, this is rhetorical crap at best. YOU are unskilled, I could take an uneducated individual with 6 months of training and get him to perform your job to a satisfactory level and deep down I know you know this. Unskilled is just another propaganda tool of the Corporate arena to justify the means.

am ecstatic that a recovering alcholic who spent a bit of time in jail for petty theft was able to find

Meaningless information as propaganda to try an justify his "unskilled" status.

Should we avoid the use of robotics because it replaces human labor?

I am all for robotics, those robots can be made here so the loss in manufacturing to the car industries improvement process can be picked up in making the robots.

The problem is that people exist, all over the world, who are willing to perform the exact same work for less.

The corporations are not using comparative advantage as you are trying to say, they are picking up their factories and training the cheaper workforce to become skilled at with less earnings in making the product.

Nissan moving down south took 1 year to train its new American employees to build their cars. Yet you can sit and say that is unskilled. One year training in a company is easily 4 years of college by any measure. Just total up the hours of study.

Jeff J-
re: I've used one of my cousins as exhibit A in the past. He works on the line for Mazda. Between his pay and benefits he's able to support his family (wife and 3 kids) to a middle class lifestyle. However, his work on the line is unskilled and he's the first to admit it. I am ecstatic that a recovering alcholic who spent a bit of time in jail for petty theft was able to find, and keep, work that compensates him in such a manner. The problem is that people exist, all over the world, who are willing to perform the exact same work for less.

Your elation aside, how does your "alcholic" cousin feel about being "exhibit A"?

Cooper,

I am in management.


I am paid, in part, for what I know as opposed to what I do.

Jeff J-
I am in management.


I am paid, in part, for what I know as opposed to what I do.

LOL!

Your elation aside, how does your "alcholic" cousin feel about being "exhibit A"?


I've never asked him.


Since he's candid about his work and his past, and since I haven't misrepresented him in any way I suspect he'd be cool with it.

Eberly,

Accountant.

Don't you just hate that, why, not only because you are trying to reduce your money earned from going to this evil government but also isn't it because now this person gets an inside look at your money decision process? The accountant can actually see and question your money decisions and whether they were common sense or not.

Not that I am saying your decisions are bad but am using this process to show the insecurity of possible poor decisions.

Jeff J-
So what do you know, since you don't do anything?

Those books are audited by one of the big-5 accounting firms. Cooking those books can spell the end of said accounting firms, just ask Arthur Andersen.

My dad is a retired partner from one of those firms (NOT A. Andersen!). What you are suggesting simply doesn't jive with my understanding of how these things work; particularly in a publicly-held company.

It is not cooking the books and I think you know this.

The accounting firm doing the books becomes the employee of said company. They are experts at moving money around to show the least amount of profit even to an extent of showing a loss. Wow! GM is doing great!

Jeff J-
re: Since he's candid about his work and his past, and since I haven't misrepresented him in any way I suspect he'd be cool with it.

Posted by JeffJ at 2007-09-24 10:46 PM |

I'm sure he would. I can see the conversation now: "Hey, 'alcholic' cousin, I use you as 'exhibit A' on why you don't deserve your pay, and I do"

"cool, cuz"

First, this is rhetorical crap at best. YOU are unskilled, I could take an uneducated individual with 6 months of training and get him to perform your job to a satisfactory level and deep down I know you know this. Unskilled is just another propaganda tool of the Corporate arena to justify the means.

It would seem as though you belive all Americans with job skills up to the level of Jeff are "unskilled".

What is "unskilled" labor to you?

I am paid, in part, for what I know as opposed to what I do.

So are you saying a Chinese person who is willing to do your job for less is unable to make common sense, conservative decisions which reflect the company value?

I suppose those foreign managers now running the manufacturing plants are just as good as the American educated managers but are they getting the same pay????

$War,


First, this is rhetorical crap at best. YOU are unskilled, I could take an uneducated individual with 6 months of training and get him to perform your job to a satisfactory level and deep down I know you know this. Unskilled is just another propaganda tool of the Corporate arena to justify the means.


This is flat-wrong. By your logic ALL jobs be they executive, or skilled trade, or line work are unskilled. Basically, your underlying premise is that no employee is capable of justifying their value to their employer. If that is the case, why does anybody make more than minimum wage?


Meaningless information as propaganda to try an justify his "unskilled" status.

No, it's the truth. When he was young he was embroiled in alcholism and spent a few months in jail for petty theft. He decided that he never wanted