As far as I can tell, Petraeus cooked his stats to achieve a particular end.

As far as I can tell, Bush made a decision to hide behind the skirts of this general.

So, let them carp about the ad. It's all they've got.

Wouldn't be so much fuss if the republithugs didn't think it was so powerful.

And as far as I can tell, the Neoright just has a STFU attitude towards any sort of critique, and genuinely perceives anyone that doesn't STFU as a traitor they'd be glad to deal with if they had the power.

Just to make sure, I visited the Red Staters this morning----Yes, yes, we're all still traitors. Good Americans STFU.

"Cooking the Books for the White House?"---the subtitle of the ad Moveon.org ran---yes, obviously. What's the fuss about? Oh, right, attack the messenger who tells you the WH messenger is full of shit. Got it. Thanks.

Vietnam was the first war ever fought without censorship. Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.

~General William Westmoreland

Two to one say Iraq is a failure. Petraeus isn't a sacred cow - and Bush put him up as the face of his policy. Bush has his nose out of joint because Petraeus got called out.

I had thought the ad was poor form, but now after Bush's little press conference and the Senate vote I'm not so sure.

Bush gave more legitimacy to the questions asked in that ad than if he'd kept his mouth shut.

This has already backfired on the rethugs. Moveon's getting big bucks in contributions from people who never considered donating to them before all this. It is also shining an unwelcome light on the 2006 dirty campaigning of the thugs.

The latest Moveon ad re. Guliani's skipping the meetings of the Iraq commission is great. Here's hoping they keep flipping the lights on a new cockroach every week up till the 2008 election.

'Betray Us' Becomes MoveOn's Macaca

To the extent that it has forced people like Hillary to show their true colors and defend the indefensible -- it certainly is MoveOn's "macaca" moment.

On the FOX morning show today Hillary refused to denounce the MoveOn ad and refused to denounce Columbia University for honoring Ahmadinejad by giving him a prestigious forum to speak at.

A rude awakening for anyone who thought that Hillary had moved to the center.

MoveOn a few years ago said they "Owned the Democratic party" and they certainly have proved that to be true.

Now America has to decide if they want to have this nation run by politicians beholden to a group whose agenda takes its marching orders from Joe McCarthy

"Whose agenda takes it marching orders from Joe McCarthy....."

Who has been dead for quite some time.

Bowa, perhaps you're not old enough to recall Tailgunner Joe. He would have had Move.On locked away as Communists who took their orders from Moscow.

Hell, he'd have locked up you, given a few of the things I seen you say here.

Loki, you must have overdosed on the kool aid this morning. You have to mix it with water before you drink it. (And remember, use water not vodka.)

Joe McCarthy is the guiding light for the NeoCons.

Anything short of murder as far as dirty tricks, misleading ads and smearing veterans and I dont think the GOP has any right to say shit.

Joe McCarthy was a Republican.

The Rethugs have found another boogeyman to deflect attention away from the real problem. The real problem is that Iraq is a situation where it has become disastrous to be in but extremely difficult to disengage from without humiliation. The Bush administration and their GOP allies in Congress is responsible for that. Not the Democrats, not General Petraeus and not MoveOn.

The military is not there to act as a political ally of whoever is in power and Bush has used Petraeus as exactly that. Bush has put Petraeus in the impossible position of having to modify his military judgement to fit his administration's political needs.

MoveOn could have made this point without being inflammatory but that's not what they do. Agreed they are pains in the ass but nowhere near as big a pain in the ass as Bush for trying to make political capital out of their irritating tactics so that his own record of unrelieved incompetence and failure in Iraq is not the focus that it should be.

TeeHee, MoveOn has set the Heffalump trap right where the Heffalump is, get out the barbeque sauce.

"To the extent that it has forced people like Hillary to show their true colors and defend the indefensible..."

Bowa, she's not defending the war and the bullshit piled up in defense of it. You are.

"As far as I can tell, Petraeus cooked his stats to achieve a particular end.

As far as I can tell, Bush made a decision to hide behind the skirts of this general.

So, let them carp about the ad. It's all they've got."

It was MoveOn's foolish decision to focus on the messenger rather than the actual issues. Plays right into the Bushies' hands.

Tempest, meet the teapot

MoveOn a few years ago said they "Owned the Democratic party" and they certainly have proved that to be true.


Posted by Bowa at 2007-09-23 10:39 AM |

SO WHAT!!!


Just look at the hateful attacks against Fox News and Rupert Murdoch. This wouldn't be happening if Murdoch wasn't so pigheaded and "gave back to the community" more often. The few thousands he gave to Hillary, Schumer, and other Democrats are a joke - he can't be that nave. If he really wants the vitriol to stop, he should be more like George Soros, a billionaire who shovels cash at the progressives on a daily basis, like a coal heaver on the locomotive of revolution. That's why not even the communists at the International ANSWER Coalition ever accuse Soros of being a shameless capitalist pig disrupting the world's economies. Which, frankly speaking, he is.

You don't fool around with the progressive protection racket. Just recently Murdoch had brazenly refused to comply with MoveOn's reasonable request to place their member on the board of News Corp. Shortly afterwards, MSNBC's Keith Olbermann released a statement that "Fox News is worse than Al Qaeda."

Olbermann's exact quote:

"Al Qaeda really hurt us, but not as much as Rupert Murdoch has hurt us, particularly in the case of Fox News. Fox News is worse than Al Qaeda - worse for our society. It's as dangerous as the Ku Klux Klan ever was."

Surely this attack could be easily avoided. There are many ways a corporation can appease the Bag Man. They can donate cash to progressive charities and campaigns, or they can give food, free space, advertisement, product placement, or product itself. The New York Times will usually "give back" our product - news, opinions, and commentary that validate progressive beliefs. This time it happened to be a $102,000 ad discount SO WHAT!!!.

Professor Bates
Poor Professors For Radical Handouts

The "actual issues" involve deceptive information. I think Bush hoped to slide that by through choosing a general to do it for him.

Move.On is guilty of a bad pun. But you couldn't possibly take aim at what Petreus said without involving the man.

well i think it might have been more effective if the add had been AFTER the testimony not BEFORE it

"The war had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction. That was a selling point, a salesman's phony and now fatal excuse to sell a war to a frightened nation. The war was also never about spreading democracy. That was an afterthought. The Iraq war was really about oil, money, and rearranging geopolitical boundaries in the Middle East. But that wouldn't sell on Fox News so they made up reasons that would.

"The blunder now called the war in Iraq was conceived and instigated in the office of Vice-President Dick Cheney prior to 9/11. And, Cheney, the former CEO of Halliburton Corporation made sure Halliburton would do quite well when the invasion took place--for Dick Cheney and Halliburton are part and parcel of the military-industrial complex, those responsible for the disappearance of America's gold, its priceless freedoms, and the consequent problems we now face.

"When Cheney was CEO of Halliburton, Halliburton's tax payments went from $302 million in 1998 to zero in 1999, a year in which Halliburton also received an $85 million refund from the IRS. During his first five years as Vice-President, Cheney's stock options in Halliburton increased in value 3,281 %, from $241,498 to over $8 million.

"With Cheney as Vice-President of the US, Halliburton was awarded billions of dollars in no-bid US government contracts for supplying food and oil in Iraq and for reconstruction work in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina."

not to mention the billions of dollars allotted to the rebuilding of Iraq that just dissapeared.

well, it didn't just disappear. it was all a calculated move.

maybe the Democrats should embrace the Betray Us motto and keep pointing out specific, detailed, accurate and documentable examples of betrayal and do not let up.

time to lock horns!

"Move.On is guilty of a bad pun. But you couldn't possibly take aim at what Petreus said without involving the man."

Yes, but the name calling gives an easy out to people who have repeatedly responded to war criticisms faux-patriotism. Now the debate is about the traitor headline rather than everything else. This response was entirely predictable, making this a poor decision on MoveOn's part. They can discuss a guy's actions, in this case telling lies, without diving headfirst into the trap of throwing around the "traitor" accusations.

well i think it might have been more effective if the add had been AFTER the testimony not BEFORE it

Posted by cheka at 2007-09-23 11:12 AM

MoveOn was right, and I'm told that truth is a defense in these matters. herm

MoveOn was right, and I'm told that truth is a defense in these matters. herm

Damn! herm

"Everyone knew days before the session, what he was going to report."

True.

With one exception.

Bush.

He was busy, hard a werk, investigating the murder of Nelson Mandela.

"MoveOn was right, and I'm told that truth is a defense in these matters. herm"

That is why you focus on facts (aka the truth) rather than name calling or the highly subjective game of dissecting one's motives. Is Petraus a "traitor"? I don't know. He could believe the lies he's telling for all I know, that would only make him delusional. He could be ignorant and lazy and relying on others who are misinforming him. He could be lying in belief that it is in the best interest of the country (and I'm not sure if that would make him a traitor or not, I tend to think it does but its up for debate).

What I do know for sure is that much of what he says is inaccurate and making decisions based on his faulty reports would lead to more highly costly mistakes. So my first concern would be to correct his inaccuracies because that is the easiest to debate to win - and the most important. Once that is resolved, we'd have plenty of time to dissect his motives.

Could you imagine working for the guy in a business?

Move on does need to move on. The far left is giving the center left a black eye.

To the extent that it has forced people like Hillary to show their true colors and defend the indefensible -- it certainly is MoveOn's "macaca" moment.

On the FOX morning show today Hillary refused to denounce the MoveOn ad and refused to denounce Columbia University for honoring Ahmadinejad by giving him a prestigious forum to speak at.


Of course, Hillary NEVER defended the ad, so you are once again either misrepresenting her position, or you are deliberately full of shit. What a surprise.

She was just on Tim Russert, during which she spoke out against ALL such ads while defending General Petraeus, and said VERY CLEARLY that talking about such ads is a diversion from the real issues at hand. Thus, she is the adult to the right-wing's screaming child, as usual.

Columbia was within its rights in a free country, and I for one don't need political candidates being the watchdogs over the types of free speech which can be exercised.

You are truly a tool of the worst sort, and are making yourself into somewhat of a predictable joke.

Absolutely accurate on all points, Midiman.

So Congress condemned this ad? What does that mean, that they REALLY REALLY don't approve?
Way to go congress, voting to say you don't like something instead of doing just about anything else that could be useful.

I can see three ads coming from this matter:

Imagine each line of the senate resolution being read one at a time, followed by the Hildebeast casting her vote.."NO" One can imagine the line "We fully support our troops." Hildebeast "NO"

A second possible ad - crazy red diaper doper baby telling an unknown person on the phone, "We own you, you better get out there and vote against this or there will be no more money. Honey, Hsu is gone, you don't have a choice." Fade to Hildebeast casting her vote, "No."

There is a third possibility of running a profile of the folks known to control Moveon and simply ask "Do you want these people controlling the president? Tell them to MoveOn....vote Republican!"

Sometimes, the crazy left is kind enough to sew the seeds of its own destruction.

I see no one remembering this over a year from now.

The Rethugs will still be swimming so deep in American troopers blood in Iraq that none of this will matter to American voters.

Corky -- I have a sad prediction -- The GOPs will probably win the White House in '08.

We should all prefer a moderate to slightly left of center presidency that adheres to rule of law rather than a GOP presidency that adheres to the "GOP's political golden rule" (i.e., "who gives the gold gets to make the rules").

I think that the average voter won't buy the total package the DEMs are offering -- big government programs, higher taxes, and a weak will to win the GOP's War on terrorism. It's a difficult process for the DEMs to master -- the mistakes are all the GOPs (Cheney and W's exactly), but the GOPs can easily campaign against the common perception of DEM metrosexual weakness, vacillation, and big-government ("tax and spend"). In fact, all the GOPs need to do to score with 50.1% of the voters, is to put down the DEM proposals and indulge in character criticism.

Ipso facto -- Any well-financed milquetoast GOP will be able to use this attack approach to defeat the DEMs, and they will probably succeed.

Another phenomena that I think we are seeing here is the traditional media pounding on the new media whenever they get a chance, trying to make this a bigger deal than it is.

Fortunately, their memory is about as long as the last news cycle.

I think most of American voters support the sentiments of Moveon.org. I certainly do, and I support the sentiments of this ad. Petrauos lied. I'm glad we have American organizations like Moveon.org, and the ACLU to protect America from the conservatives who have always hated Americas' freedoms.

I respect your view, TC, and hope you are dead wrong.

Without the war, I think you may be right, but the Repubs have underestimated the impact of the war on their popularity, blaming most of their problems on the "values" issues within their Party.

Also, Hillary will be difficult to paint as as a "Socialist" with her tough image and her Bob Dole health care plan.

So far, the core of the GOP doesn't have a dog in this race, and will likely vote with their feet, ie; not turn out for marginal true believers.

Joe McCarthy served a purpose for the good of America. He killed Communism in America. But he kept on and went too far, and that was his undoing.

But I will never forget his contribution to this great nation. Death to liberal Communism! hehehehe........

Now, moveon.hate has proven to be just that: hate. They hate the nation and wish to demolish it for spineless people who surrender to threats from Islamofacists.

George Bush came at the right time and smashed al queda and put them behind caves, gitmo, and into pain and hiding.

Now that his presidency is coming to an end, he will oversee a wonderful Thanksgiving in America and a glowing Christmas. His presidency will end on a positive note.

Get with it, moveon.

Townandcountry

big government programs,

I haven't heard of these programs----care to name them? Can you name the expansion of government under the republicans? Can you tell how they have shrunk government?

"higher taxes"

I have seen a proposed tax cut of 80 billion for the middle class from Obama. If taxes are raised, it will be a roll back of the tax cuts Bush gave his buddies. GOOD---we need those taxes raised on the rich---put it on the ballot and see how it flies.


"and a weak will to win the GOP's War on terrorism."

At least you got that right---it is the GOPs war--not Americas war. Most want to stop us from bleeding out our cash in a war that has no opposing army--no country to conquer---no one to surrender to us---no one to tell us we've won---no one to tell us it's over except ourselves. Most Americans aren't fond of the fact that 4000 Americas have died for nothing, that we have invaded a country that was no threat to us, and we've killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. I don't think those facts will be a deterrent to pulling the lever for dems in the next election.

Macaca moment my ass. A reasonable comparison would be the savaging of Howard Dean by Fox and the usual gang of idiots that provide our daily news.

A play on words that hit a Republican Achilles Heal, requiring a multimillion dollar barrage of bullshit coordinated responses. The coordinated aspect is evidenced by the repetition of exact phrases on radio and television by the usual gang of well paid idiots.

Corporate interests in the media are more than happy to provide the bullshit free to Republican lowlifes, who support their secret Un-Democratic agendas.

TakieTurd, Why are you still using this handle? Your ban expired a week ago. You can go back to posting as Rob_?hole.

By the way, please read the "Do Not Mix With Vodka" warning on the koolaid packets.

"A reasonable comparison would be the savaging of Howard Dean by Fox and the usual gang of idiots that provide our daily news."

Agreed.

"His (Bush's) presidency will end on a positive note."

Of course it will: He won't be president any longer.

Sounds pretty positive to me.

Hans

"His (Bush's) presidency will end on a positive note."

Of course it will: He won't be president any longer.

Sounds pretty positive to me.

Hans

Posted by Hans at 2007-09-23 01:55 PM | Reply | Flag:


ROFL! FF for dat.

His (Bush's) presidency will end on a positive note."

Of course it will: He won't be president any longer.

Sounds pretty positive to me.

Hans


AWESOME flag for that.

Joe McCarthy served a purpose for the good of America. He killed Communism in America. But he kept on and went too far, and that was his undoing.

Takeitez


I suppose you would say the same thing abut the Salem witch trials. Hasn't been a reported witch in Massachusetts in years.

This yahoo shows such a breathtaking lack of understanding of what this country stands for it would be hard to know how to begin. If it weren't for the fact that he is obviously an intellectual "DNR", somebody might feel like making an attempt ...

Important to Congress:
General Betray us
Freedom Fries
Vacation

Not Important to Congress:
Bush/Cheney lying to the American People to go to war
Escalating body count in Iraq
Ending the war in Iraq
What the average American thinks

George Allen directed his infamous, racist comments to a young American at an exclusive gathering of like-minded people who would get his "joke" and the recording of the incident spread like a virus throughout the Web, much to his and his supports' chagrin. MoveOn.org's full page ad in a newspaper read around the world intended their message to be a widely-publicized statement of protest against a popular, public figure. Allen was a coward in what he did because he'd NEVER have said that in a truly public setting whereas MoveOn.org put their message out for EVERYONE to see.

Which one is really insidious?

Please!

Ok, How 'bout Gen. Portreyesman.

I'd never question any of their integrity going into the job as Lil' Buddy's lil' buddy. But the "after" pic never looks as good again.

I don't hold Petraus responsible for anything. He is there to serve the civilian leadership as they see fit. Thats the way its been and that the way it should stay.

However everyone has to realize that he IS there to serve the civilian leadership and be it's mouthpiece if necessary.

However, since he did sing the administration's tune, I do believe that he has shot himself in the foot ala Colin Powell.

She was just on Tim Russert, during which she spoke out against ALL such ads while defending General Petraeus,

Midi, Who really cares about what she says to deflect the issue -- she was asked specifically about Petraous and the Moveon ad and she deflected into political vagueness.. On FOX, she was asked 3x to specifically denounce the Petarous ad and she waffled all 3x. Bottom line: When she had a chance to vote and denounce the ad in a way that counted -- she voted against it. That is Hillary's position regardless of what she "says" on the morning news shows.

Since we're talking about fringe groups going too far -

When will the Republicans denounce the extremist group Values Voters? At the Presidential debate the group held for GOP candidates this week, event organizers invited the Church of God Choir, from Springfield, Ohio, to sing "God Bless America" -- except the lyrics were rewritten. Instead of a song about "the land that I love," and "home sweet home," this version condemns the country, saying we've all turned against God, and that He won't bless us.

Twisting and distorting the words of "God Bless America" is disgusting and an insult to all Americans. The GOP should be ashamed for supporting a fringe group like Values Voters.

Hillary might just as well wear a Strawman outfit around Bowa and the GOP.

She doesn't have to say anything, because no matter what she actually says, they will just tell us all what she means anyway.


"What a maroon!"
- Bugs Bunny

He would have had Move.On locked away as Communists who took their orders from Moscow.

Joe McCarthy is the guiding light for the NeoCons.

Joe McCarthy was a Republican.

Boy, the Lefties on this site always pretend to be so smart and then they can't even understand a simple analogy between Mccarthy and Moveon.org

The fact is that the way McCarthy demonized Communists is exactly the sam way that moveon.org demonizes anyone who doesn't embrace their anti-war agenda "hook, line, and sinker" -- and they will use the same kind of attacks and smears to destroy anyone who stands in their way just as Mccarthy did.

And furthermore (lol!)....


Rudy showed just the same kind of hubris and arrogance running NYC as Bush as shown running the country.

Rudy Bushiani
More 'O the Same 08!

Since we're talking about fringe groups going too far

Moveon.org is not a fringe group, so obviously we are not talkign about "fringe" groups.

Twisting and distorting the words of "God Bless America" is disgusting and an insult to all Americans.

Why?

Song parodies have a long and established history in our political history. Calling a 4-star general a traitor to his country (which is what "Betray US" suggests) does not.

Moveon used a pun of dubious taste.

Joe McCarthy terrorized people's reputations and destroyed their lives, not to mention shaming the Nation.

Oh yeah, I see the resemblance.

Hillary handled this as well as she has handled every other effort to push her train off the track.

It happenin' Bozo.

awww!

It ain't happenin', Bozo.

Song parodies have a long and established history in our political history. Calling a 4-star general a traitor to his country (which is what "Betray US" suggests) does not.

Posted by Bowa

Wonder what John Lennon would say about that, Bowow?:>)

What's Mr. Soros' game. Is he interested in money manipulation.

There's a rumor afoot that one billion dollars in Puts have been bought that "bet" on a stock market collapse before the end of October. If not the bettor has lost the money. A great deal has been bet on one airline's decline in value.

Didn't the same scenario occur in relation to the 9/11 episode? Didn't people who may have ahd an awareness buy futures which would decline because of the attack?

Is Mr. Soros in the money manipulation business? What does he know?

Does Mr. Soros have another agenda with MoveOnOrg just being a tool? Or is he sincee in his beliefs?

When "There's a rumor afoot", we can depend on "Johnson" to have it in his mouth.

What is the continuation of the story if the U.S. were to pull out of Iraq. Of course, a couple of million would probably be slaughtered in internecine strife. But so what? The left didn't flinch when a million Vietnamese were murdered by the communists consequent to our pullout there. (Good old "Bloody Hands Jane Fonda," the poster girl for that slaughter.)

What is supposed to occur that is so beneficial if there is a pullout from Iraq? What good consequences will ensue?

Oh! Is disengagement supposed to indicate that there is no conflict?

May all the opponents of the war be reduced to using shanks mare for transportation, and heating their homes without fuel, and ...

Well, lefties never claimed to be equipped with prescience.

The true "Bigfoot?"

That is Hillary's position regardless of what she "says" on the morning news shows.



Posted by Bowa


So, let's see. It doesn't matter what she says, becasue YOU will tell us what her true position is. I gyuess thta kind of work requires a special kind of tool, huh?

She SPECIFCALLY criticized the ad (she's under no obligation to do so - it's a trivial matter when kids are getting killed, don't you think?), and if you deny it, then you are a liar - or an idiot. That's it for me.

"a million Vietnamese were murdered by the communists consequent to our pullout there"


Link, please.


"What good consequences will ensue?"

Live American troops.

Of course, they would then become Dem voters, so I kinda see your point. You'd rather see them dead.

She SPECIFCALLY criticized the ad

No she didn't. Check the transcript on both shows.

YOU will tell us what her true position is

Hillary told us her true position by voting against the bill condemning the moveon.org ad. Or do you believe what a politician "says" is more important then how they "vote"?

Wonder what John Lennon would say about that, Bowow?:>)

Happiness is a warm gun

I love his "Happy New Year" the most...

Joe McCarthy terrorized people's reputations and destroyed their lives, not to mention shaming the Nation

And moveon hasn't done the same to Petraous? or Baird? to name just two.

"Happy Xmas" (war is over) is the correct title of John Lennon's song...excuse me:>)

"What is supposed to occur that is so beneficial if there is a pullout from Iraq?"

American soldiers, sailors and Marines stop dying for no reason whatsoever.

"What good consequences will ensue?"

American soldiers, sailors and Marines stop dying for no reason whatsoever.

"May all the opponents of the war be reduced to using shanks mare for transportation, and heating their homes without fuel, and ..."

Sort of like opponents of stem-cell research should be denied its benefits?

Hey, wait a minute! We invaded Iraq so that we don't have to use "shanks mare for transportation"?

You mean we invaded Iraq for its oil? So much for WMDs, or "liberation," or any of the other shifting reasons given for the invasion.

Hans

"And moveon hasn't done the same to Petraous? or Baird? to name just two."

Perhaps we need to run that one by Max Cleland.

Hans

Petreous is terrorized and destroyed so easily?

No, most people saw it for the too-tempting pun on his name that it was.


As long as the GOP doesn't have to talk about dead Americans in Iraq or their "members" in Men's Rooms, they will latch onto a silly story like this one and suck until they think they taste blood.


That's YOUR Party, Dudley.

"What's Mr. Soros' game. Is he interested in money manipulation.

There's a rumor afoot that one billion dollars in Puts have been bought that "bet" on a stock market collapse before the end of October. If not the bettor has lost the money. A great deal has been bet on one airline's decline in value.

Didn't the same scenario occur in relation to the 9/11 episode? Didn't people who may have ahd an awareness buy futures which would decline because of the attack?

Is Mr. Soros in the money manipulation business? What does he know?

Does Mr. Soros have another agenda with MoveOnOrg just being a tool? Or is he sincee in his beliefs?

Gee, move told the truth again...from what I can tell

Yeah, that's the same thing they said about McCarthy too at first.

CNN: The war with Iran has begun

We have been in a proxy war with Iran for a while now.

But it won't escalate unless the Iranians make an overt attack on our troops in Iraq

Petreous is terrorized and destroyed so easily?

I think his career and impeccable reputation has been forever tarnished.

How can that even be in dispute.

Here's a fun and telling game to play

Yes, it is telling that Hans buys into the worst stereotypes of anti-semitism that he would make the connection between a passage about Soros and connect it to "the Jews"

Has everyone forgot the 2000 Presidential election? Bush, Rove and his band of ruthless aids called John McCain (A decorated Vet who did his time I might add, unlike W.) everything from a deserter to having 3 illigitimate black kids in South Carolina, and that is a memember of the same party!
Where was the outrage in the Republican Party?

If McCain's dick is the same lentgh as his memory he's in big trouble.

The recent ad by Move on may have needed a little rearrangement. But overall, the content of the add was right. I think the personal attacks should go and we should stick to the facts. The average voter also needs to be able to discern what is bullshit or not.

"Yes, it is telling that Hans buys into the worst stereotypes of anti-semitism..."

Should have expected bowwow to be too stupid to recognize ridicule, even when it is staring him in his face.

Hans

She SPECIFCALLY criticized the ad

No she didn't. Check the transcript on both shows.





Read this, eat shit, and disappear.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me show you an ad that has caused a lot of controversy in this debate about Iraq. MoveOn.org took this ad out, "General Petraeus or General Betray Us?: Cooking the Books for the White House." Do you believe that General David Petraeus has betrayed the American people?

SEN. CLINTON: Absolutely not. He is a man of great honor and distinction who has served admirably. I don't condone anything like that, and I have voted against those who would impugn the patriotism and the service of the people who wear the uniform of our country. I don't believe that that should be said about General Petraeus, and I condemn that. I didn't think it should've been said about Senator Cleland or Senator Kerry. I think it's important that we end this kind of attacks on the patriotism of those who serve our country.

Sorry ... my last post was for Bowa.

I think the personal attacks should go and we should stick to the facts.

Sticking to the facts would be devastating to the Neocons. That's why we're going to see almost nothing but deflections from them for the next 14 months.

"I think it's important that we end this kind of attacks on the patriotism of those who serve our country."




Posted by midiman at 2007-09-23 06:00 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Nuff Said

Sticking to the facts would be devastating to the Neocons. That's why we're going to see almost nothing but deflections from them for the next 14 months.

Posted by Whatsleft at 2007-09-23 06:02 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

The right has spent a lot of money setting up a network to take care of their dirty work.
Take Fox News for example or the the Junkie on the radio daily whats his name, oh yeah Rush. Sean Insanity and the like.....

U.S.-IRAQ: Fallon Derided Petraeus, Opposed the Surge
By Gareth Porter*

WASHINGTON, Sep 12 (IPS) - In sharp contrast to the lionisation of Gen. David Petraeus by members of the U.S. Congress during his testimony this week, Petraeus's superior, Admiral William Fallon, chief of the Central Command (CENTCOM), derided Petraeus as a sycophant during their first meeting in Baghdad last March, according to Pentagon sources familiar with reports of the meeting.

Fallon told Petraeus that he considered him to be "an ass-kissing little chickenshit" and added, "I hate people like that", the sources say. That remark reportedly came after Petraeus began the meeting by making remarks that Fallon interpreted as trying to ingratiate himself with a superior.

That extraordinarily contentious start of Fallon's mission to Baghdad led to more meetings marked by acute tension between the two commanders. Fallon went on develop his own alternative to Petraeus's recommendation for continued high levels of U.S. troops in Iraq during the summer.

The enmity between the two commanders became public knowledge when the Washington Post reported Sep. 9 on intense conflict within the administration over Iraq. The story quoted a senior official as saying that referring to "bad relations" between them is "the understatement of the century".

Fallon's derision toward Petraeus reflected both the CENTCOM commander's personal distaste for Petraeus's style of operating and their fundamental policy differences over Iraq, according to the sources.

The policy context of Fallon's extraordinarily abrasive treatment of his subordinate was Petraeus's agreement in February to serve as front man for the George W. Bush administration's effort to sell its policy of increasing U.S. troop strength in Iraq to Congress.

In a highly unusual political role for an officer who had not yet taken command of a war, Petraeus was installed in the office of Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Republican from Kentucky, in early February just before the Senate debated Bush's troop increase. According to a report in The Washington Post Feb. 7, senators were then approached on the floor and invited to go McConnell's office to hear Petraeus make the case for the surge policy.

Fallon was strongly opposed to Petraeus's role as pitch man for the surge policy in Iraq adopted by Bush in December as putting his own interests ahead of a sound military posture in the Middle East and Southwest Asia -- the area for which Fallon's CENTCOM is responsible.

The CENTCOM commander believed the United States should be withdrawing troops from Iraq urgently, largely because he saw greater dangers elsewhere in the region. "He is very focused on Pakistan," said a source familiar with Fallon's thinking, "and trying to maintain a difficult status quo with Iran."


From TedBaxter's post above ~ Bowow to your superior?:>)

Midiman, I guess I missed it. Where did she specifically say she condemned the MoveOn.org ad by name.

You are a victim of political trickery by a Clinton, and you wouldn't be the first.

you actually believe that she specifically denounced the moveon.org ad when she didn't mention the ad or moveon.org specifically at all.

She never said the words "Moveon.org" on russert or on Fox. She did not vote to condemn the moveon.org inthe bill which specifically named it either.

Bottom line is she is talking out of both sides of her mouth.

But her vote does not lie -- she is against condemning moveon.org for their Betray Us ad.

"The right has spent a lot of money setting up a network to take care of their dirty work."


In two words the right has Rupert Murdoch.

If there was ever a case for dispersing media outlets, its the last 6 years.

But her vote does not lie -- she is against condemning moveon.org for their Betray Us ad.

If that's true then maybe she's starting to grow a pair. Good for her!

"...she is against condemning moveon.org for their Betray Us ad."

And the problem with that is?

Good for her.

Meanwhile, more evidence that our resident reichwingers get their talking points directly from Faux News:

Bill O'Reilly Fearing Democratic Victory Resurrects George Soros

"Moveon.org is not an official government entity, so the comparassion to Joe McCarthy is such a stretch of logic, not to mention base, inflamatory, appeal to the lowest common and intellectual denomenator that it defies the imagination. Are you people really that fragile? Are your positions really that precarious that you have to sling reality negative comparassions in order to defend yourselves from words?"


Trees to Bowow

Bowow down for the knockout?:>)

Ah. Condemning Hillary for not casting an affirmative vote on the most undemocratic, unamerican resolution?

You sure got her, Bowa.

The people that introduced that Resolution? Where were they when the GOP did worse? Same place as always:

Ms. Boxer's proposal, which failed, called for the Senate to "strongly condemn all attacks on the honor, integrity and patriotism" of anyone in the United States armed forces. It did not name MoveOn.org, but criticized the ad that appeared in The Times. Mr. Dodd and Mrs. Clinton also voted in favor of Ms. Boxer's proposal.

All attacks means Republican attacks, too. Can't have that!

Oops!! Appears Hillary is consistent with what she said. She voted against ALL attacks, but when the GOP put forth a specific resolution condemning ONLY Moveon she said "Bullshit!"

GOP - party of hypocrites.

GOP - party of hypocrites.

Posted by YAV

with 22 Dems in the senate...

with 22 Cowards in the senate...

with 22 Cowards in the senate...


What does that make Obama, who didn't vote?

I think he expressed a similar point of view as Hil, but had to differentiate himself on the point somehow. Though I doubt that was the best way.

Dems, and everyone else for that matter, need to understand that only rarely in real life can we turn the ship of state without votes from both Parties.

The smart money knows that and has infiltrated the Dems, already having bought the Republicans outright.

It's something we need to keep in mind, but if in the Dem primaries we select a Moderate candidate now, one that can win a general election against a weakened, dis-organized, unmotivated GOP, the likelihood of getting a more Liberal Dem in office in the future is enhanced.

Dennis the K and Elizabeth the Red Giant '012!

Corky,

I don't know the circumstances behind why he did not vote, however, I have heard that he walked out of the vote.

Now, I can draw conclusions, but they are biased conclusions because I happen to support Obama.

Without knowing all the facts, what I think is that he might have felt the entire thing had become an asinine and fruitless exercise.

What I do know for a fact is that he did what I would have done.

I would have walked out too.

Personally, I think all the Dems should have abstained from voting on either measure. The whole thing has been a waste of the Senate's time and Taxpayer money.

Why should they have to condemn an ad which they had nothing what so ever to do with?