Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Thursday, June 14, 2007

At least 25 Palestinians were killed and 80 were wounded as Hamas fighters overran two of Fatah's most important security installations in the Gaza Strip on Thursday. Witnesses said the victors dragged vanquished gunmen from the building and shot them to death gangland-style in the street in front of their families.

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At least 25 Palestinians were killed and 80 were wounded as Hamas fighters overran two of Fatah's most important security installations in the Gaza Strip on Thursday. Witnesses said the victors dragged vanquished gunmen from the building and shot them to death gangland-style in the street in front of their families.

The headquarters of the General Security Service, commanded by Ramallah-based General Tawfik Tirawi, fell to Hamas gunmen. Hamas said documents it found there prove that the Fatah-affiliated security apparatus has close ties with the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Hamas said it would show the documents on television in the coming hours.

Elsewhere, the capture of the Preventive Security headquarters was a major step forward in Hamas's attempts to complete its takeover of all of Gaza. Hamas followed up that victory by demanding Fatah surrender another key security installation.

Hamas also overran the southern city of Rafah, the second of Gaza's four main towns to fall into the Islamic group's hands.

Later Thursday, an explosion rocked Gaza City, and smoke was seen rising from a security post. Fatah security officials said forces positioned at the post had redeployed elsewhere and blown it up as they left, rather than let Hamas take it ove

Earlier, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, for the first time in five days of fierce fighting, ordered his elite presidential guard to strike back. But his forces were crumbling fast under the onslaught by the better-armed and better-disciplined Islamic fighters.

A Hamas military victory in Gaza would split Palestinian territory into two, with the Islamic extremists controlling the coastal strip and Fatah ruling the West Bank. Israel was watching the carnage closely, concerned the clashes might spawn attacks on the southern border.

Defense Minister Amir Peretz told a weekly meeting of security officials that Israel would not allow the violence to spread into attacks on southern Israel, meeting participants said.

The battle for the Preventive Security complex brought the day's death toll to 25 by mid-afternoon, hospital and security officials said. About 90 people, most of them gunmen but including children and other civilians, have been killed since a spike in violence Sunday sent Gaza into civil war.

Fatah said Hamas shot to death seven of its fighters outside the Preventive Security building. A doctor at Shifa Hospital, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal, said he examined two bodies that had been shot in the head at close range.

A witness, who identified himself only as Amjad, said men were killed before their wives and children.

"They are executing them one by one," Amjad said in a telephone interview, declining to give his full name for fear of reprisals. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting."

As Hamas took this major battle spoil, the Palestine Liberation Organization's top body recommended that Abbas declare a state of emergency and dismantle Fatah's governing coalition with Hamas. Abbas said he would review the recommendations and make a decision within hours, said an aide, Nabil Amr.

After the rout at the Preventive Security complex, some of the Hamas fighters kneeled down outside, touching their foreheads to the ground in prayer. Others led Fatah gunmen out of the building, some shirtless or in their underwear, holding their arms in the air. Several of the Fatah men flinched as the crack of gunfire split the air.

"We are telling our people that the past era has ended and will not return," Islam Shahawan, a Hamas spokesman, told Hamas radio. "The era of justice and Islamic rule have arrived."

Sami Abu Zuhri, another Hamas spokesman, heralded what he called "Gaza's second liberation," after the 2005 disengagement.

Gunmen and civilians were looting the compound, hauling out computers, documents, office equipment, furniture and TVs.

Hamas had been tightening its ring around the Preventive Security complex for three days, stepping up its assault late Wednesday, with a barrage of bullets, grenades, mortar rounds and land mines that continued until the compound fell. Electricity and telephone lines were cut, and roads leading to the complex were blocked. Hamas claimed it confiscated two cars filled with arms sent as reinforcements.

The Islamic group was also training its guns Thursday at three other key command centers in Gaza City.

In a broadcast on Hamas radio, the Islamic fighters demanded that Fatah surrender the National Security compound by mid-afternoon. Light clashes were taking place there when the ultimatum was delivered.

Rocket-propelled grenades were also being fired toward Abbas's Gaza compound, provoking return fire from his presidential guard. For the first time since the fighting began, Abbas ordered his guard to go on the offensive against Hamas at the compound, and not simply maintain a defensive posture, an aide said.

The intelligence service compound was under siege as well, with Hamas firing dozens of rocket-propelled grenades in its direction.

In Gaza's south, Hamas trounced Fatah in Rafah, taking over the Preventive Security building in that town. It was the second main Gaza city to fall to the Islamists, who captured nearby Khan Younis on Wednesday.

"I can see the Preventive Security building in front of me. Hamas has raised its green flags over it," a civilian resident, who identified himself only as Raed, said by telephone. "There are men carrying away equipment from inside. ... (The Fatah-allied) National Security men ran away."

Hospitals were operating without water, electricity and blood. Even holed up inside their homes, Gazans weren't able to escape fighting that turned apartment buildings into battlefields.

Moean Hammad, 34, said life had become a nightmare at his high-rise building near the Preventive Security headquarters, where Fatah forces on the rooftop were battling Hamas fighters.

"We spent our night in the hallway outside the apartment because the building came under cross-fire," Hammad said. "We haven't had electricity for two days, and all we can hear is shooting and powerful, earth-shaking explosions.

"The world is watching us dying and doing nothing to help. God help us, we feel like we are in a real-life horror movie," he said.

Shaher Hatoum, a nurse at nearby Al Quds Hospital, said the facility had no electricity, water or blood, and that wounded were propped up on ward floors. Hundreds of bullets flew through windows, and fighters ignored the hospital's appeals to hold fire just long enough to have the generator and water pipes fixed, Hatoum said.

"We are waiting here for our end," Hatoum said.

In Syria, meanwhile, a senior Hamas official warned Fatah to keep the violence contained to Gaza.

"This is very dangerous for our people," Moussa Abu Marzouk said by telephone in Damascus, where several top Hamas leaders live in exile.

For those who don't follow or don't realize the connection. This is the same war we're fighting in Iraq against proxies of Iran. Here in Gaza, Iran's proxy terror group Hamas has now taken Gaza after executing the secular Fatah group which is now based primarily in the West Bank. Bottom line is now the Palestinian Arabs are split into two distinct groups. One is secular and based in the West Bank while the other is Islamist and will set up a Caliphate in Gaza.

GZ,

How does the Sunni/Shia issue play out among the Palestinians?

Is Fatah Sunni and Hamas Shia?

Bush must have provoked them somehow to do this... Its not like Muslims just go around killing each other... America must have done something to them to start this...

I'm sure some liberal will be along soon to tell us all how America is to blame for this...

Of course we are to blame, its all because of the oppression of these PEACEFUL LOVING GENTLE People that the JEWS have inflicted in the region.

Since we support the JEWS then it is absolutly our fault. Come on Rob you don't see it...

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Hezbollah in Lebannon was Iran's proxy group?
What is the difference between Hezbollah and Hamas? I thought they were quite different.

YEAH!

I miss those good ole days when conservatives didn't bat an eye at what some other far flung country did to themselves!

Now all we get are these bleeding heart liberals dressed up in conservative clothing (bad clothing to boot) crying about "nation building" and stupid shit like that!!

Oh how far Bush has dragged the party in a cesspool of whining unwanted "we must save the world" activism!

Quite a disgusting spectacle you all have become!

No, Rob. As soon as Bush decides Hamas have WMD's and they were part of the 9/11 plot and then we invade hoping to be greeted as liberators but instead get stuck in an occupational war of attrition, then you may see liberals coming in and saying how smart you were.

Since we support the JEWS then it is absolutly our fault. Come on Rob you don't see it...

Posted by armyof1


Where was my head Armyof1...

As opposed to what these 25 muslims last thoughts were, "Where is my head"

Ah... religion of peace... that's what Mohammed Ali told me as vibrated all over the stage at the 9/11 benefit... "Islam is about peace"

I think his version of the Koran had a misprint and should have read, "Islam is about pieces of people scattered around after the explosion."

Bush must have provoked them somehow to do this... Its not like Muslims just go around killing each other... America must have done something to them to start this...

Bush isn't to blame for anything but Iraq. Come on Rob, after decades of watching the Palestians turn everything they touch to shit, why would ANYONE think that Iraq would be different?

News on tele just stated Abbas just dissolved the goverment. Is it ok to call this a civil war?

"Is Fatah Sunni and Hamas Shia?"

I'm pretty sure the majority of Palestinians are Sunni regardless of whether they support Fatah or Hamas.

That these people are willing to fight for this for control shows me that the Palestinian Authority must be a very rich source of skim for whoever is running it. Arafat was a billionaire.


I miss those good ole days when conservatives didn't bat an eye at what some other far flung country did to themselves!


I'm not saying we should stop them from killing each other... I hope the same shit happens in Syria and Lebanon and Egypt, etc...

But if Hamas takes over and starts a fight with Israel we have to back our friend... cuz that's what friends do... I bet when you're out with your friends and a fight breaks out you make a b-line for the jukebox and hide behind it until its over...

Come on Rob, after decades of watching the Palestians turn everything they touch to shit, why would ANYONE think that Iraq would be different?

Posted by Norm_


The Kuwaitis (sp?) didn't turn everything to shit when we liberated them...

There's a part of middle east muslims that want peace... the problem is we have to get rid of the vast majority that want to fight...

Anyone see the latest polls on appoval ratings.

BUSH is still higher than congress. DEMOCRAT run congress. 27%...

Talk about incompetent....

BWHAHAHAHAHA

Here's the article to the story NotImportant just referenced...

www.foxnews.com

Things are getting bad over there... Might not be a bad idea for Israel to step in and help the palestinian government destroy Hamas...

I bet when you're out with your friends and a fight breaks out you make a b-line for the jukebox and hide behind it until its over...

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2007-06-14 02:31 PM | Reply

Hell no REDNECK wouldn't be that big of a chickshit, he switches sides and blames his friend for everything.

A little background on the conflict...

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, the US does have a bit of a role in this, particularly the financial problems caused by the US cutting off any foreign aid because of not liking the party elected by the people to lead the Palestinian Authority. Generally, though, it's not a religious war but a typical civil war over power and resources.

Yes, the US does have a bit of a role in this, particularly the financial problems caused by the US cutting off any foreign aid because of not liking the party elected by the people to lead the Palestinian Authority.

And who was it that cut off funding after the elections....

Come on baby... bring us home!!!!!

Might not be a bad idea for Israel to step in and help the Palestinian government destroy Hamas...

They couldn't do it in Lebanon. I don't think the Israelis can do much, except fund the faction that hates them less. What a clusterfuck, like always.

Bush ain't America, Rob. And note, I said that we had "a bit" of a role causing this...not the main show.

The Kuwaities are all billionaires. I don't think their stability is a fair comparison.

But let things get bad in Gaza. Let the Palestinians clean up their own mess. Let's see if they get sick of killing each other before they wipe each other out.

I don't think Israel should do a damn thing except keep it contained inside Gaza's borders.

"Might not be a bad idea for Israel to step in and help the Palestinian government destroy Hamas..."

Hamas is the Palestinian govt right now...

'But if Hamas takes over and starts a fight with Israel we have to back our friend... cuz that's what friends do...'

Yes, all those Israeli troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are really helping out tremendously.

Israel has attacked us more times than it has helped us fight an enemy. I don't begrudge them the right to defend themselves however they see fit. But only a total moron would still by the myth that they are a "crucial ally".

They couldn't do it in Lebanon.

Big difference between they "couldn't" and they "didn't."

Israel didn't do it in Lebanon, but they are more capable if they have the resolve...

Yes, all those Israeli troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are really helping out tremendously.

Yeah, wonder what would happen if Israel put 25,000 jewish soldiers in Iraq and/or Afghanistan... yeah the muslims sure would be cool with that one... dumbest comment of the day right there...

Bush ain't America, Rob. And note, I said that we had "a bit" of a role causing this...not the main show.

Posted by DCinMA


Bush is the president of America, he sets policy for America... you're at least somewhat blaming this situation on the policy that we cut funding when they elected terrorists...

But let things get bad in Gaza. Let the Palestinians clean up their own mess. Let's see if they get sick of killing each other before they wipe each other out.


Couldn't hurt I guess... and if they don't get tired of it, in a few months/years the whole Palestinian problem will be over with... sounds good...

Truth is, Rob, whether it was a correct decision or not, the financial impact of the sanctions is part of the cause of the turmoil.

Yeah, wonder what would happen if Israel put 25,000 jewish soldiers in Iraq and/or Afghanistan

I think they would welcome them as great liberators. Just like the US soldiers.

Oh wait.........


Truth is, Rob, whether it was a correct decision or not, the financial impact of the sanctions is part of the cause of the turmoil.

Posted by DCinMA


Hmmm... see I'm just not the type of guy to look at palestinians killing each other and say, "How is this my fault." The Palestinian people elected terrorists to lead them... there is no law that says we have to keep dumping buckets of cash on them, and if they're going to elect leaders that call for our's and an allies destruction we shouldn't give them money...

We are in no part to blame for this... the blame rests on the heads of the Palestinians who loved and supported Hamas as long as they were killing Jews... now they've turned on the Palestinians... good... fuck 'em all... they deserve it.

"Yeah, wonder what would happen if Israel put 25,000 jewish soldiers in Iraq and/or Afghanistan"

So...you should always help your friends, but not when the enemy is too big and scary? It's not like the US would get any more of a warm reception if we sent troops to back Israel in their current conflict.

So...you should always help your friends, but not when the enemy is too big and scary?

Israel sending troops into Iraq or Afghanistan wouldn't help us at all and you know it...

Why didn't Israel respond in 91 to the numerous missile strikes against them... The have a powerful air force, long range missiles, well trained and supplied soldiers... their involvement just liket today would have been a big help... so why is it they didn't? Could it have something to do with all the other nations in the middle east who hate jews and Israel? Maybe...

"Israel didn't do it in Lebanon, but they are more capable if they have the resolve..."

They were trying to fight one of those "kinder, gentler wars. You know, kinda like what we do. First you drop leaflets warning everybody we're going to bomb. Then you allow 48 hours or so for the enemy to depart or dig in. Then you go in with munitions that won't just clear the earth and root out the tunnels and such. Then you send the troops and armor in after the enemy has returned or emerged from the tunnels and has target practice from their secure positions. It doesn't work well.
I suggest send the B-52's with all the bunker-buster weapons without warning and make a wasteland of the enemy's positions. Oh, I know, I know, some civilians are gonna take a hit. BUT, less troops will take a hit when they go in with flame throwers and clear out any remaining snipers and such. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR VICTORY.

"Why didn't Israel respond in 91 to the numerous missile strikes against them..."

Easy question...because we asked them not to. We had a "coalition" of other Arab nations against Iraq at the time. Saddam thought he could ruin it by targeting Israel and provoking them to respond. If Israel had, the other Arab nations would probably have left the coalition and maybe turned on Israel. EVERYBODY knew that. I'm kinda surprised it slipped by you.

"Israel sending troops into Iraq or Afghanistan wouldn't help us at all and you know it... "

Says who? Would it be any different than sending American troops to Israel to help them fight Palestinians? Why should we have to die for Israel if they're not willing to do the same for us?

Could it have something to do with all the other nations in the middle east who hate jews and Israel?

And Americans are loved Rob?

I agree with what you are saying, but what you aren't saying is more interesting.

Wait a minute Rob. I've got to discuss this latest point about Israel.

You say that since the muslims all hate the Jews, that it would only inflame things if they respond militarily, so it's good that they didn't respond in '91, or send soldiers today to fight the War on Terror.

But the muslims also hate US. And it is the exact same behavior by Clinton that the Right blames for causing 9-11.
There's a contradiction. By your argument, President Gore or Paul would be the best thing for this country. We should get out of the ME and stop inflaming things.

If passivity is right for Israel, and doesn't invite further attacks, why is it wrong for us?

I don't understand the double standard. Israel can't fight because her enemies hate her. But we go charging all over the globe, and our enemies hate us just as much.

Actually what we have is TWO Palestinian regions now ...

Hamastan = Gaza
Fatahland = West Bank

In the last hour the head of the PLO Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) "fired" the head of the current "unity" government Ishmael Haniyeh (Hamas) and asked for an international force to get Gaza under control. Needless to say Hamas rejected it and said it was against Palestinian law.

And so Fatah in the West Bank, rounded up Hamas people and many are now under "arrest" which could turn into executions.


Everyone in the region aside from Iran who backs Hamas, would like to see Hamas destroyed.

As I've been saying for a long long time, its these gangs of THUGS that prevent any peace from ever happening. They DON'T WANT peace but so many here just can't grasp what's going on.

"Palestinian" Arabs were just Egyptians, Syrians etc before they became "Palestinians" in 1968. Aside from a mutual hatred of Jews and Israel thanks to the endless propagandizing they suffer, they have no connection to each other. They are a society primarily ruled by clans and power struggles with these clans have gone on for decades. Remove Israel and Jews from the equation, and they will kill each other. The hatred is what unifies them, otherwise there's nothing there. No special Palestinian culture, no unique Palestinian language ... zero.

And what you see now, was inevitable.
The so called Palestinian society is now breaking down into factions and the myth of there being one unique culture is crumbling.

God Dammit Norm, we were working our way there SLOWLY as to not lose anyone.

Well, you just went and ruined that plan. We'll probably have to start all over now.

Extremism, in the defense of liberty, is no vice.

Barry Goldwater

(Cue angels singing)

MP,
Yeah... Sorry.
I guess I shouldn't post the part about airplanes being crashed into New York, and NOT Tel Aviv then huh?

Not quite yet Norm. Baby steps with this crowd.

If Israel responded to anything right now it would unite the "Palestinians" who ONLY unite around hatred of Israel and Jews.

Chalk it up to endless propaganda for decades.

However showing weakness in the ME is tantamount to "asking for it" ... if you can't see how clearly always showing strength is what its all about, you haven't got your eyes open.

The Lebanese Army has been pounding the Palestinian refugee camp for the last two weeks in order to kill one of the more extreme groups Fatah al Islam who have embedded theselves there. Although many civilians have been killed, the entire Arab League supports them.
Strength is key

And destroying the cancer of these THUG gangs, is crucial over there because thats what prevents any forward movement. These are NOT resistance groups but common criminals and terrorists that need to be eliminated.

Wait a minute Rob. I've got to discuss this latest point about Israel.

You say that since the muslims all hate the Jews, that it would only inflame things if they respond militarily, so it's good that they didn't respond in '91, or send soldiers today to fight the War on Terror.

Posted by Norm_ at 2007-06-14 03:23 PM | Reply


Yeah, I'm jumping in too :)

Norm's right. I'm tired of hearing Israel's same old excuse for never using their own military troops to help us fight their battles in the ME "because that it would inflame the Arabs even more."

Tell a DEAD U.S. soldier that he would be even MORE DEAD if Israeli soldiers had been in Iraq because then the insurgents would have REALLY been mad. Sorry, dead is dead.

We can't get the Iraqis/various insurgent groups any more PO'd at us than they are right now. Having 200,000 Israeli soldiers to help shoulder the burden on our U.S. troops while in Iraq would help us gain some control and who cares if the Iraqis are "inflamed" another notch or two.

But the muslims also hate US.

Not as much as they hate Jews...

Wow, sending Kindasleeza over there worked really well.

But then only Bush would think that sending a woman to talk to people who view women as property and 2nd class citizens would work.

"But the muslims also hate US.

Not as much as they hate Jews..."

BINGO

"Not as much as they hate Jews..."

So Rob, if your friend gets in a fight and you know that the guy he's fighting hates you more, do you hide and not defend your friend? Isn't that what you said this was about?

sending a woman to talk to people who view women as property and 2nd class citizens would work.

Posted by briwo

That say's alot for Hillary Rodham

If Israel responded to anything right now it would unite the "Palestinians" who ONLY unite around hatred of Israel and Jews....

Yeah, and I suppose Israel having their boys spill their own blood [for a change] to help out our U.S. military as they are continually sent to fight in the M.E. for Israel's own security would also inflame Hamas in Lebanon, and would ratchet up the Iraqi violence, and would destroy any possible Peace Accords, and would guarantee that Iran uses their nukes on the whole world, and would...yada, yada, yada.

"Norm's right. I'm tired of hearing Israel's same old excuse for never using their own military troops to help us fight their battles in the ME "because that it would inflame the Arabs even more."


Are you on fucking drugs ??

First of all its the US that has prevented the Israelis. Case in point .. and from personal experience.

Saddam hit Israel with scuds during Gulf War I. The IAF was scrambled and waiting to fly when Bush Sr told them to stand down. I know this because my cousin was one of the pilots ...

Don't make shit up Chris ... your post is total BS

Had the Israelis been allowed to enter Gulf War I, the coalition that Bush Sr had put together which provided a cover for the US in the Muslim world would have been destroyed. It was obvious

So Rob, if your friend gets in a fight and you know that the guy he's fighting hates you more, do you hide and not defend your friend? Isn't that what you said this was about?

Posted by JOE at 2007-06-14 03:41 PM | Reply


Good point, Joe.

"But the muslims also hate US.

Not as much as they hate Jews..."

BINGO


Ok, NOW Norm.

If Israel responded to anything right now it would unite the "Palestinians" who ONLY unite around hatred of Israel and Jews....

I think we have a solution to the current problem then.

Which nation did Osama Bin Laden attack, and which nation did he not attack?

3000 dead is being hated LESS??

Atta boy.....

OK so lets get this straight.

Everyone here finally admits it was Osama who attacked on 9/11?

Lets just get a confirmation on that one first and then we'll move to the next part.

We have your confirm NORM and MP?

I have never suggested otherwise GZ.

Had the Israelis been allowed to enter Gulf War I, the coalition that Bush Sr had put together which provided a cover for the US in the Muslim world would have been destroyed. It was obvious

Posted by GZlives at 2007-06-14 03:45 PM | Rep


I do agree with you there, GZ, on the Gulf War coalition situation.

However, people here in the U.S. are feeling the way they do now and questioning Israel's loyalty as a "true" friend to the U.S. (and, in some respects, questioning their courage) because after Bush/Cheney and their pack of Neocons' PNAC disaster in Iraq, Israel is AGAIN beating the war drum for us to do MORE of their fighting for them -- Iran, Syria, Hamas, Lebanon, and on and on. Are we to wipe out the entire ME for Israel using American blood?

Americans are tired of doing the dying half way around the world for ancient Arab/Jewish hatreds that go back centuries. I have always liked Israel but lately I've had my eyes opened a bit and don't like what I'm seeing -- the U.S. (especially thousands of our 19-25 year old military kids) dying for Israel while Israel ALWAYS has an excuse for not entering the battle and putting THEIR 19-25 year olds' lives on the line.

I'm just calling it as I see it.

And now your point is what exactly .. that Muslims hate the US as much as they hate Jews?

Everyone here finally admits it was Osama who attacked on 9/11?

I do, until proven otherwise.

he Muslim world would have been destroyed.

Too bad. It woulda saved the world alot of bullshit.

That say's alot for Hillary Rodham

Posted by wisgod at 2007-06-14 03:43 PM


right, which is one of the many reasons I will not vote for her, as I've stated here many times.


Which nation did Osama Bin Laden attack, and which nation did he not attack?

3000 dead is being hated LESS??

Posted by Norm_ at 2007-06-14 03:48 PM


If Al Qaeda were the only faction wanting the nation of Israel destroyed, your point would valid. There are hundreds of groups with the same goal. I can't figure out how the thousands upon thousands of rockets that have been launched into Israel by these like minded groups are condoned. Not to mention the minor responses by the Israelis.

They never should have given up the Gaza strip. How has it benefitted them?

that Muslims hate the US as much as they hate Jews?

Let's first make that statement accurate, K?

that Muslims hate the US as much as they hate Israelis? (Fair enough?)

They have killed a lot more Americans as of late. Why were those planes NOT flown into downtown Tel Aviv?

And now your point is what exactly .. that Muslims hate the US as much as they hate Jews?

Yes. So there must be consistency.
If Israel can't fight back, neither can we.
If we can fight back, so can Israel.

It's that simple.
Pick one and get back to us. (I've got a meeting, later)

"yeah the muslims sure would be cool with that one... dumbest comment of the day right there..."

Oh, but Muslims wouldn't freak out if we went to war with Muslims on Israel's behalf as you suggested, right?

Why don't you use your "dumbest comment of the day" filer on yourself? Fucking moron.

But then only Bush would think that sending a woman to talk to people who view women as property and 2nd class citizens would work.

Posted by briwo at 2007-06-14 03:38 PM

Briwo, this is an example of how stupid you behave...your eyes glaze over with Bush hatred. "...only Bush would..." Oh Briwo, what woman was Clinton sending around the world for discussions?

They never should have given up the Gaza strip. How has it benefitted them?

They should never have established a State. How has that worked out for them.

I know, chicken, egg........

GZ- what does it matter that Arabs hate Jews more than Americans? Do you need to be friendly toward someone before you go to war against them? The point of war is to kill each other - whether one group already hates another shouldn't be a problem.

"I'm just calling it as I see it."
And making shit up as well ....

No American ever fought for Israel. In fact, had Israel not destroyed the Iraqi nuclear reactor, the Iraqis would have had nukes durng Gulf War 1. The Israelis did that and were condemned for it by the US ....as well as everyone else.

The Israelis fight their own battles Chris and its never been any different.

Just because some Jews were for the Iraqi war does NOT mean it was fought for Israel.

Can't American Jews have political beliefs without you thinking it has something to do with Israel ?


And he got the same results shit for brains. Why whenever somneone makes a valid criticism against Dubya do you always drag out the actions of a man who hasn't been President for 7 yrs?

Would you be happier if I had said Only Bush and Clinton? I woyuld have, had Clinton been relevant to the discussion.

But you can rest easy knowing that tonight, when Bush pulls out, you'llbe able to tell him that you defended his honor once again.

"They have killed a lot more Americans as of late. Why were those planes NOT flown into downtown Tel Aviv?"

Maybe because they knew Israel would definitely respond in some grand manner. I think they were surprised our response was what it was. After all, they had bombed the WTC before (1993), our enbassies, our ships, our troops (Khobar Towers) and we didn't really do much about it.

The reasons why Israel doesn't help us doesn't matter as much as the fact that they don't help us. You can't call someone a crucial ally if they have a built in excuse to never help you against your enemies.

Not only that, but Israel could help by relieving US troops elsewhere around the world. Don't hold your breath waiting for that offer.

Why anyone would say we should fight and die for Israel and stir up the Muslims even more but Israel can't help us because it would stir up the Muslims and think that makes any sense at all is beyond a sane person's comprehension.


Which nation did Osama Bin Laden attack, and which nation did he not attack?

3000 dead is being hated LESS??

Posted by Norm_ at 2007-06-14 03:48 PM


Because the people on the planes would never have allowed a bunch of fucking freaks to take over the aircraft. They seem to have understood before 9-11 any threat to their nation by hijacking is real and know they risk being struck. Remeber the muslim shot at LAX some years ago in the El Al terminal?

I'm not defending Bush....you stated "only Bush" Pointing out your stupidity...thanks for your acknowledgement.

"If Israel can't fight back, neither can we.
If we can fight back, so can Israel."

Who says Israel can't fight back? Israel fights back all too often and always has because the Arabs have never let go of the dream that they'd be able to destroy it.

Israel fought five wars against the Arabs and lost thousands of troops and civilians. What makes you say they can't fight back ?

But Israel cannot fight WITH America without America losing any sense of even handedness in the Islamic world.

Israel does not get involved outside of its 'perceived' borders as it would leave the Israeli state vulnerable to attack. When they have in the past, it has been quick hit and run missions.

Great points Sully. You'll only hear otherwise from an apologist with a complete disregard for reality.

Can't American Jews have political beliefs without you thinking it has something to do with Israel ?

Posted by GZlives at 2007-06-14 04:01 PM | Rep


It's rather hard when AIPAC [whose MAIN concern is the welfare and security of Israel] has every member in our Congress (and every Presidential candidate from both parties) bowing and scraping the floor before them.

Nancy Pelosi was going to put language in a bill that made it mandatory that Bush come to Congress FIRST before he launched any attack on Iran [especially nukes] -- until she was cowered and verbally hounded at an AIPAC meeting she attended -- and immediately after which she went back to Congress and DELETED that language from her bill. 'nuff said.

NO, I was making a point about Bush, and Bush only. Granted I should hae realized that some morally bankrupt asshole,such as yourself, would reach way back and attempt a Clinton deflection.

Next time I'll be sure to remember that the recently lobotomized don't understand editorial comment.

...But Israel cannot fight WITH America without America losing any sense of even handedness in the Islamic world.

Posted by GZlives at 2007-06-14 04:08 PM | Reply |


Well, after Bush's "pre-emptive" attack on Iraq for non-existent wmd's, chem weapons, and a zillion other lies, and Bush/Cheney's real agenda as set out in the Neocons' PNAC document now on the internet for the entire world to view -- the U.S. can kiss good-bye any thought that the Islamic world thinks that the U.S' future agenda is ever going to be even handed.

"only Bush" (is what you said) would use a woman in ME....yeah, I was really reaching way back Briwo. I'm glad you are a bit more educated about the topic now!

Danni, when Mikey's boat arrives in his new Cuban homeland, and just in case he finds something negative about his new homeland of Cuba...he'll have real fun when the beloved Fidel won't allow it to be published. You are such a tool Danni.

Ok BrilloHead. Let's use a little closer example....Pelosi heads to ME state of Syria....... Your statement was stupid, just man up there.

"The reasons why Israel doesn't help us doesn't matter as much as the fact that they don't help us. You can't call someone a crucial ally if they have a built in excuse to never help you against your enemies."

How do you know they aren't helping us?

Where are the Arabic translators coming
from ?
Do you know?
Frankly, considering the circumstances, I'd assume any help Israel is supplying is not something helpful to have widely known, or have you forgotten that the leadership in the Iraq government itself blamed Israel for the suicide and car bombings.

You see Chris you continue to make a very big mistake here when you post

You post about "The Neocons' PNAC" and then automatically move your argument to Israel.

This is US think tank stuff that happen to have a number of Jews involved. So what?
There are numerous Jews involved in every line of thinking in the US politics because Jews are often very active in politics but that don't make every line of thought Israeli policy

Another words ... just because a number of Jews support a particular political position, does not make that an Israeli position. You're mixing apples and oranges.

"How do you know they aren't helping us?"

We're fighting two wars. They've sent zero troops. I know we exchange intelligence but we don't seem to know much. The fact that Israel spies on us proves that they don't tell us everything they know. Surely, the help they supply doesn't warrant the enormous expenditure. Nor would it warrant us fighting their wars for them, not that I think they would need it anyway.

"Where are the Arabic translators coming
from ?
Do you know?"

Do you? From what I've heard, we're very short on translators.

"Frankly, considering the circumstances, I'd assume any help Israel is supplying is not something helpful to have widely known, or have you forgotten that the leadership in the Iraq government itself blamed Israel for the suicide and car bombings."

Same old cop out. If Israel is supplying any help at all, I think we should be told. Because from where I'm sitting, our government takes money from Americans and gives it to Israelis and we get very little in return.

I'm not an Israel basher and don't begrudge Israel its right to defend itself however it wants. But I don't think I should be taxed for the benefit of any foreign population. And I don't buy this "crucial ally" nonsense because it doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

Another words ... just because a number of Jews support a particular political position, does not make that an Israeli position. You're mixing apples and oranges.

Posted by GZlives at 2007-06-14 04:28 PM

Seems like GZ has it right. The Statement of Principles doesn't only seem to apply to Israel or only the Middle East.


June 3, 1997

American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.

We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.


As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?


We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We are living off the capital -- both the military investments and the foreign policy achievements -- built up by past administrations. Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world. And the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to override strategic considerations. As a consequence, we are jeopardizing the nation's ability to meet present threats and to deal with potentially greater challenges that lie ahead.

We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.


More:

Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;


we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;


we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;


we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next

Why anyone would say we should fight and die for Israel and stir up the Muslims even more but Israel can't help us because it would stir up the Muslims and think that makes any sense at all is beyond a sane person's comprehension.

Posted by Sully

put it this way, there are many iraqis that don't like the migration of sunnis (al quada etc) entering their country and are more willing to fight those incoming sunnis than the US troops currently there. if those troops were (knowingly) jews, than it would be a different situation. the iraqis for the mostpart do not want us there.... but if it was israeli troops in their country, the chaos would make the current condition look like utopia.

y is that difficult to understand? muslims don't like americans or jews, but they sure as hell dislike israel more than america. i'm sure there are many iranians who hate israel but actually like america.

Damn a lot happened when I was gone... I hate it when I actually have to work:

So Rob, if your friend gets in a fight and you know that the guy he's fighting hates you more, do you hide and not defend your friend? Isn't that what you said this was about?

Posted by JOE


If it was just the guy that hates me more, no... fuck no I'd jump right in, damn the consequences... but if it were a one-on-one fight at first, and my jumping in would cause the fight to be 25 against the 2 of us, yeah I would stay back becasue at least when its one on one my friend has a chance... if I jump in and cause everyone to attack us, then we're both fucked and its my fault...

Now if any of those buddies start to jump in against my one friend well then fuck it we're gonna have one of those drunken melee's...

That's Israels situation right now... they jump into the fight and it could cause the entire mid east to go up in flames, sending the whole region into war... (now if Syria and Iran attacked us in Iraq you can be damn sure Israel would have our back and would get into the fight)... that in the long run is worse for us, our troops, Iraq, the region the world...

So it is better that Israel stay out...


GZ- what does it matter that Arabs hate Jews more than Americans? Do you need to be friendly toward someone before you go to war against them? The point of war is to kill each other - whether one group already hates another shouldn't be a problem.

Posted by JOE


The question is how big do you want this war to get... if you really want to have it out with the muslims and end this nonsense that's been going on since the crusades, then by all means convince Israel to join the fight... but it will escalate things... we'll all get drafted and we'll have a huge war on our hands as opposed to one relatively contained to Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today."

You mean like turning tail and running from Lebanon? Or arming rightwing terrorists?

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today."

You mean like turning tail and running from Lebanon?

Posted by Bill_OReilly at 2007-06-14 04:57 PM

Yet you advocate the US doing the same thing in Iraq. Interesting.


Ok BrilloHead. Let's use a little closer example....Pelosi heads to ME state of Syria....... Your statement was stupid, just man up there.

Posted by ride_on at 2007-06-14 04:21 PM


you still don' get it. I was talking about Bush, not Clinton, not Pelosi, Bush.
Get it now?
Do you understand what an editorial statement is?

Amazing, the tighty righties continue to display their ignorance on a daily basis and they have no shame about it either.

I guess it's no wonder they continue to support Chimpy....birds of a feather flock together.

"The European Union suspended tens of millions of dollars in humanitarian aid projects in the Gaza Strip because of the escalating violence, a day after the U.N. announced it would scale back its relief projects there."

where did the EU think this "humanitarian" aid was going in the first place? How do you think Hamas buys its' guns? With candy canes?

"you still don' get it. I was talking about Bush, not Clinton, not Pelosi, Bush.
Get it now?
Do you understand what an editorial statement is?"

No, that little troll doesn't. Don't waste your time.

www.youtube.com

for a UK TV news short vid of Hamas sacking and humiliating Fatah ... quite a good piece

"y is that difficult to understand? muslims don't like americans or jews, but they sure as hell dislike israel more than america. i'm sure there are many iranians who hate israel but actually like america."

I understand. What is so hard to understand that the reason why they don't help us isn't as important as the fact that they don't.

It is like when you meet a guy who is a total asshole and you don't like him. But a mutual friend will tell you "He grew up as an only child and his father was a real dick and blah blah blah....."
As if the reason WHY he's an asshole matters more than the fact that he is one.

Why should we care WHY Israel doesn't help? The important thing is that they don't. And as I stated, there is plenty they could do to help in other ways aside from invading Muslims countries. They could even stop taking our money for a while so that we could pay some of our own debts.

GZ


You see Chris you continue to make a very big mistake here when you post

You post about "The Neocons' PNAC" and then automatically move your argument to Israel.


This is US think tank stuff that happen to have a number of Jews involved. So what?
There are numerous Jews involved in every line of thinking in the US politics because Jews are often very active in politics but that don't make every line of thought Israeli policy

Another words ... just because a number of Jews support a particular political position, does not make that an Israeli position. You're mixing apples and oranges.

Posted by GZlives at 2007-06-14 04:28 PM | Reply


And I suppose
THIS CANADIAN WRITER who when in a very non-anti-Semitic manner questioned the strong ties and relationships of PNAC, Israeli influence, U.S. think tanks, and U.S foreign policy and got bashed for it was totally off base with his premise?

I haven't been able to read this (what so far appears to be very interesting) entire article yet as I am busy but what I've read so far sure fits in how you address anyone who tries to connect PNAC, the AIE, and how U.S foreign policy (and wars fought) are very closely connected.

The article definitely stresses the fact that not all Jewish people here in the U.S. are behind PNAC or the war in Iraq but he does make a strong case about the extreme influence the Jewish lobby has on our country's politics and policies not to mention a strong case that Israel is not always best buddies with the USA.

"The question is how big do you want this war to get... if you really want to have it out with the muslims and end this nonsense that's been going on since the crusades, then by all means convince Israel to join the fight... but it will escalate things... we'll all get drafted and we'll have a huge war on our hands as opposed to one relatively contained to Iraq and Afghanistan."


But yet you want us to jump in and fight for Israel should they ask, causing the same result, and that is no problem?

Do you see the inconsistency? Or are you a halfwit?

And Israel could relieve US troops in other places if they really wanted to help us out.

These people (ARABS) are not happy unless they are killing someone...God almighty, why do we deal with these freaking retards, Either let them kill each other or just Nuke Them

I love how the younger (below 30) posters with no military experience consider themselves experts on world affairs.

Guess we all did when we were young.

Mahmoud Abbas Abandons Gaza City for West Bank, Where Fatah on Offensive Against Hamas

Could this be the real start of separating the Palestinians into groups that want peace with their neighbors and those who do not?

If so, is this positive or negative?

Your Canadian writer was of course making anti semitic remarks as much as you might not like to admit

I didn't read the entire article but here for example

"Lasn, the editor of the (highly-praised) Canadian journal 'Adbusters', had the audacity to state, in the March/April issue, that the neocons are Jewish and proceeded to list 50 neocons, finding that 26 were Jewish. Moreover, he stated that the neocons have a "special affinity" for Israel and that their influence helps to tilt US foreign policy toward Israel.

Neocons are Jewish ?
Really ?
But almost half aren't ... so is the statement "Neocons are Jewish accurate or not?

Sometimes believe it or not Chris, people who cry the loudest that they are being "unfairly" accused of being anti semites - are indeed anti semites.
Our very own Bani comes to mind who slowly worked his way up to now posting from out and out holocaust denial web sites to try and prove his argument that the holocaust is really a Jewish conspiracy to advance an agenda ie Israel and other
conspiracies. Is Bani an anti semite ? His remarks often would fit the definition. And anyone who makes a flat out remark that "neocons are Jewish" and then shows only about half are Jewish is not exactly being honest.

Jews are entitled to have opinions without being immediately accused of some sort of disloyalty.

And Jews as a rule tend to have many many different positions and each one is the position of that person and has little or nothing to do with Israel ...

Don't we wish now that Iraq wasn't in turmoil, that Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq, and that the Palestinian emergency was the least of our worries?

Great going again, Bush for a 'do nothing' policy regarding the Palestinian peace process.

"Could this be the real start of separating the Palestinians into groups that want peace with their neighbors and those who do not?"

Yes, very likely exactly what will happen.

Fatahland (west bank) ... will make peace backed by the Arab League ie Egypt and Jordan

Hamastan (Gaza) will chose war back by Iran

A coalition of "moderate" Arab countries along with Fatah (Palestinians) will then attack and destroy Hamas - only they'll call it "liberating" the poor civilians trapped in Hamastan

GZ's mantra: I didn't read the entire article but here for example

GZ spams and spams and bitches and bitches about people not reading his articles and yet here we have his total admitted hypocrisy.

GZ will never read any article or information any further if there is some negative or damning information refuting anything he believes.

GZ is only one way information, his way, if it is contrary it is false, bad, made up, lying.

The Institutionalized Evil of Inaction

In situations where evil is being practiced, there are perpetrators, victims, and survivors. However, there are often observers of the ongoing activities or people who know what is going on and do not intervene to help or to challenge the evil and thereby enable evil to persist by their inaction.

It is the good cops who never oppose the brutality of their buddies beating up minorities on the streets or in the back room of the station house. It was the good bishops and cardinals who covered over the sins of their predatory parish priests because of their overriding concern for the image of the Catholic Church. They knew what was wrong and did nothing to really confront that evil, thereby enabling these pederasts to continue sinning for years on end (at the ultimate cost to the Church of billions in reparations and many disillusioned followers).

Similarly, it was the good workers at Enron, WorldCom, Arthur Andersen, and hosts of similarly corrupt corporations who looked the other way when the books were being cooked. Moreover, as I noted earlier, in the Stanford Prison Experiment, it was the good guards who never intervened on behalf of the suffering prisoners to get the bad guards to lighten up, thereby implicitly condoning their continually escalating abuse.

At the level of nation-states, this inaction, when action is required, allows mass murder and genocide to ourish, as it did in Bosnia and Rwanda and has been doing more