And another bible thumper shows his ignorance.
What is it about these morons that disturbs me? They really don't have much say in my life-but they turn me-very quickly-into a raging bull.
Maybe it's their willful ignorance, combined with intentional stupidity or something.
Stupid people just plain piss me off.
The DEVIL is impeding his efforts? How self important can you get-a legend in his own mind. He's grandstanding For Jeebus-an election ploy-nothing more. It's as blatently self pitying as those that claim God is out to get THEM specifically. As if God doesn't have anything better to do all day than follow them around.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGG
GGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!

Bush sent Laura out to campaign for his opponent -- Chris "Open Borders" Cannon -- so maybe it's the "devil in a blue dress" he's talking about.

The only devils working non-stop against Jacobs to win is La Raza, Presidente Fox, MEChA, all the corporate cheap labor whores, and the New World Order open borders crowd -- all of whom want globalist, no more U.S. sovereignty incumbent Chris Cannon to keep his seat in Congress.

This race is about illegal immigration and that is THE issue that will unseat Cannon on Tuesday -- unless Laura Bush brought a planeload of Diebold paperless trail e-voting machines along with her on her trip to Utah to stump for her husband's favorite "open borders and amnesty for illegals" shill -- Chris Cannon. If Bush doesn't rig the machines, then the people of Utah will decide this race based on the illegal immigration issue and dump the 5 time incumbent Cannon out of office.

After all, Jacob's opponent Cannon stated that he is PROUD that Utah lets illegals get drivers licenses using the corrupt matricular counsular cards handed out by the Mexican governmnet and also said that he (Cannon) is proud that Utah does see much difference if a person in Utah is legal or illegal.

This is THE RACE to watch on Tuesday on the illegal immigration issue. Both candidates are the same on the other issues except for illegal immigration. Chris Cannon wants as many illegals to come to Utah as possible, and wants thousands more H1-B visas holders to come in and take American jobs. Tuesday will show if the people of Utah want their country back by voting for John Jacobs for Congress, or if they want Bush and Cannon's globalist agenda of destroying our borders and flooding our country with cheap third world labor. It's Utah's choice to make.

"And another bible thumper shows his ignorance"

No..it's another case of a so called Christian, who is using spirituality to scare people to vote for them.

It's he neocon way, it seems.

Here's the entirety -- from another source -- of what John Jacobs said:


"You know, you plan, you organize, you put your budget together and when you have 10 things fall through, not just one, there's some other, something else that is happening," Jacob said.

Asked if he actually believed that "something else" was indeed Satan, Jacob said: "I don't know who else it would be if it wasn't him. Now when that gets out in the paper, I'm going to be one of the screw-loose people."

Jacob initially said the devil was working against him during a Wednesday immigration event, then reiterated his belief Thursday in a meeting with The Salt Lake Tribune editorial board.

"There's a lot of adversity. There's no question I've had experiences that I think there's an outside force," he said."

It amazes me that this guy never entertained the thought that perhaps God was telling him, He doesn't want him to take this path.

Good Lord...he's a whiner now, can you imagine if he got into office?!

He has more faith in Satan than he does in God, apparently.

Well,
If it is Satan's fault, and G-d allows Satan to exist...wouldn't that make it G-d's fault?
If G-d created everything, then G-d created Satan. If Satan rules Hell and G-d created everything, then G-d created Hell and allowed Satan to rule it.
It is all G-d's fault therefore.

"If it is Satan's fault, and G-d allows Satan to exist...wouldn't that make it G-d's fault?"

That's known as logic, something else that's Satan's responsible for...

"That's known as logic, something else that's Satan's responsible for...
"

Yes. His most diabolical tool.

Careful with that logic, Eugene...

This is a last minute setup against Jacobs to make him look foolish. This is a TOUGH race and you have some Republican heavyweights pulling for each guy. Tuesday should be interesting.

Lisa-in a way-I'm with you on this one-it's really G-d-telling him to STFU-that he nor his party speaks for G-d or Jeebus.

Thanks Frank.

This guy has given more credit to Satan, less to God, than a Satan worshiper.

My point is that instead of trusting God to know what's best for him, IMHO, giving him some pretty strong signals that he's going down a road that He doesn't want him to travel....he is ignoring that, and crediting Satan for trying to disrupt his plans.

Here's someone whom God is actually talking to, and he's tuned him out.

I've heard the saying, "The devil made me do it." "The devil wouldn't let me do it" is a new twist. This guy should read his Bible more. There are lots of verses which promise God will help his followers overcome all evil.

Given it's Utah this candidate's comment is more likely to stir any potential supporters than it would be in some other state.

As a Christian I am aware the devil has great influence on us on earth. Invoking satan as a rationale for a failing campaign is a calculated effort on his part and one for which I have little sympathy.

Resisting the devil and how Christians deal with his influence can make for interesting discussion if anyone cares.

At the risk of stirring the pot I find it interesting how many of you toss around the phrase "so called Christians" to, I assume, dismiss them and to cast doubt or show disdain for the Christian faith.

Why do you guys do it? Do you derive satisfaction from weakness or error in others? Does it boost yourself to hammer others?

Is it to show a moral equivalence between never-been-a-Christians and those who profess to be but don't exhibit characteristics of what you feel a Christian should?

I'm not gonna beat you up over the answers you might give. I honestly want to know (without it devolving into name calling) from your point of view.

So called Christians equals Those who Proclaim they are Christians but Yet they never Practice what they Preach. In other words Christians on Sunday Backstabbers on Monday. Does that answer Your question OORAH ??

Larry

OOHRAH:

There's your answer.

Is it to show a moral equivalence between never-been-a-Christians and those who profess to be but don't exhibit characteristics of what you feel a Christian should?

Too many charlatans in the pack. Wolves in sheeps clothing . . . so to speak.

"I am aware the devil has great influence on us on earth."

Fascinating

I didn't know "great" and "zero" were synonymous.

I met the devil once and told him to take his best shot.

He got mad and stormed out of the room.

What a pussy!

Data-
I'm addressing the misconception by some that simply by becoming a Christian somehow permanently insulates you from satan's influence.

I'm assuming that even those who believe in a higher power or some sort of God (not necessarily a self-professed Christina) also buy into the devil side of it.

You buy into neither. I understand. It has no relevancy for you aside from how you interact with those who feel differently.

Twin,
I think you nailed it. That was my take before becoming a Christian.

Without change (in how you live your life and the motivations behind it) a self professed Christian is of little use. He doesn't glorify God in his actions... and actually turns away folks like you by being a hypocrite.

If there's no discernable difference between your life/actions/motivations and mine then as a Christian I need to really think about what I'm doing. It's a sad reality but there are plenty of folks like that walking around.

Bear in mind there are many Christians truly living out their faith in their daily walk. I trust I'm one of them :)

Lucifer means light bringer. Some folks say we need pain and suffering in order to know happiness and joy. Do we likewise need evil in order to know good?

OOHRAH

Actually I never trust anyone who has to tell me that they're a Christion.

Actions speak a lot louder. I monitor, observe and draw my own conclusions.

I checked to see if you were Lokisfur in disguise. Glad to see you're not.

How's tricks in Virginia?

Twinpac
really?
cool

DATA:

Yep!

But if Oohrah turned out to be Lokisfur I was getting ready to thump on his head.

God told Adam not to eat from the tree of good and evil because on that day he would "surely die." If Eve hadn't eaten the apple, mankind wouldn't have known good from evil and wouldn't have had free choice. God said, "Behold, the man has become like on of Us, knowing good from evil." God didn't seem to like that idea too much, so He said, "now lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever. . ." Then God kicked them out of the Garden.

So, was the serpent evil? If was God who got offended by Eve's act, but without knowledge of good and evil, which only eating the fruit provided, how could Eve had known she was doing wrong? How could Adam and Eve have known what it meant to die?

If was God=It was God

They say the one's that go to hell have the most Fun cause that's where the degenerates go.

Larry

Larry, have you been listening to Billy Joel again? :-)

Resisting the devil and how Christians deal with his influence can make for interesting discussion if anyone cares.

Oorah, do you think Satan can prevent someone from doing good? He can put stumbling blocks in a person's path by tempting him/her to do evil, but can he prevent them from doing good as the politican in this article suggests?

Nah that is just where the Biker babes go and those types Ya know what I mean WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE

Larry

Larry, I guess you never heard of Biker Babes for Jesus. LOL Good morning, btw.

Nope never have and Good Morning to You too Gal Tuesday LOL

Larry

Loco's too easy to recognize.
Besides, he must be running that chocolate factory in fallujah by now.

DATA:

I'm not so sure about that. I think the Time-Share deal fell through. Something about a bomb and a hole in the roof.

But he probably has orders for 130,000 "I Love George" or "I Hate Hillary" T-shirts by now.

Go to CafePress.com if you want to get in on the sale.

LOL

Satan was hired by God, Dude...Just ask God sometime...:>)

I find it interesting how many of you toss around the phrase "so called Christians" to, I assume, dismiss them and to cast doubt or show disdain for the Christian faith. Why do you guys do it?
posted by Oohrah

"Turn the other cheek"
"Love thine enemy"
"Thou shalt not bear false witness"
"Blessed are the peacemakers"
"Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil."
"Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins."

Not too many live up to the above. Especially the current administration and it's followers. Instead, with them it's "Strike the other cheek" "Kill thine enemy" "Bear false witness because you're above the Law" "Blessed are the warmongers" "If a multitude does evil, support them endlessly" and "Hatred stirreth up oil profits".

A lot of "so-called Christians".

Christians like those make me wanna turn atheist. And I was raised on the Bible and had it thumped into my head many many times.

I was wondering what Niceville's been up to. And now I know. Utah. Congress. Whouda thunk it?

Sometimes I'd love to laugh but the sad truth is that these people are actually getting elected....and running our government right into the ground. There was a very good reason why our Founding Fathers wanted distinct separation between Church and State and these nutcases prove how right they were.

Candidates for office in the Republican Party grow more insane by the day. It's not just Utah. There are three or four other red states that this refugee from the 14th century could run in and win.

There's not that much difference between this nutcase and our President asking God if it was OK to invade Iraq. We need to to get our country back or secede from these crazies.

This boy's a few cards short of a full deck.

Just got back from our kid's Marine check in. Long day.

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement for Bob and our family. I appreciate it.

And also thanks for your opinions on those who claim Christianity. Most of my friends are like minded believers so it's not often I'm presented a chance to hear another side. While I disagree, I do trust you'll reach your conclusions about faith based on your own study. Don't just ignore it.

At church today we stepped forward to ask the congregation pray for our son. If you're so inclined, I'd ask for the same from you and also for my wife who is coping with our "little boy" leaving home. Parents - you'll know what I'm talking about.

Organized religion is a parasite upon mankind.

Organized religion is a fictious event to draw in the money from the very weak minded individuals who are not capable of making sound moral decisions on their own.

Oohrah, while I don't at all believe in any religion, how's about I just think positive thoughts for your lad?

Why did he sign up? Does he think Iraq was a worthy cause? Or is he just one of those amazing people who sees the sacrifices others are and have made and doesn't want the burden to fall solely on someone elses' shoulders. What a great kid, especially given the current climate. You must be proud, and justifiably so.

Eva-
God or no god, thoughts or prayers, we'll take it. Appreciate it.

I actually asked him why several months ago. I initially thought that he wanted to go a separate path from his twin brother - they'd competed all their lives in school, sports and pretty much everything.

He said that wasn't the reason. He felt strongly in the freedoms we have here and felt he wanted to stand for something.

His cousin (they were quite close) and his grandmother died within a couple weeks of each other two years ago. The cousin's was sudden - car wreck. It showed Bob the frailty of human life and probably matured him more than he'd admit as he served as pall bearer at both funerals.

He told me he's healthy and if he didn't go, who would? As a side issue, he didn't feel he wanted to go to college right away (had good grades, played sports, we're fine financially) and knew I wouldn't tolerate him living at home working around town waiting to "find himself."

He chose the Marines because if he was going to go the military route he wanted to be among the best trained out there. His ASFAB scores were great, so he should have a bright future if he decides to make a career out of it.

I'm a strong conservative, both economically and morally, and have instilled in him values I possess.

Libs and cons both love our fighting men and women. I'm convinced of that. It means even more if you have a personal connection with someone involved there. Same for Christian/non-Christians. Like my kid said, "dad, there are no athiests in a fox hole."

I'm extremely proud of both my sons. Can you tell? :-)

Yes, he thinks it's a worthy cause from comments he's made. You kind of wonder about opinions stemming from teenagers - are they just parroting their parents...

Could be the case. In any event he's gone for 13 weeks, ready to enjoy fun in Parris Island sun. From there he's got more training/schooling. If Iraq is where they stick him it'll be at least a year before he's fully trained. He put in for Japan/Hawaii so we'll see. Maybe if North Korea acts up they'l need him there after all. Have a good night - it's been a long day at our household.

OOHRAH you are pure evil!!, pimping your child out to George Bush. You are disgusting.

That's a little harsh CYNIC.

Well reared children are often highly principled.

I see no reason to berate the father like you've just done.

Sometimes parents just have to cross their fingers and hope for the best when their child makes decisions.

I don't see any evil intent here regardless of how I might personally feel.

You need to walk a mile in another man's shoes before you make such condemnations.

"As a side issue, he didn't feel he wanted to go to college right away (had good grades, played sports, we're fine financially) and knew I wouldn't tolerate him living at home working around town waiting to "find himself."

Yeah, that would be horrible. "living at home, working around town" and "finding himself".
I can't imagine the hell that would have been. Iraq will be much nicer.

Rasta-
To clarify, my son didn't want to live at home and "find himself" either. It's extremely healthy for nearly 19 year old high school grads to want to get out on their own.

Military service is a positive on so many levels. You may disagree on particular missions or how those missions are done strategically.

That a bright, healthy young man would step forward in today's climate for service to his country speaks volumes. Honor, courage, etc., Those qualities know no religion or party.

OOHRAH

I don't put much stock in prayer but I do "fervently hope" that your son makes it back OK.

His enlistment just seems to be incredibly bad timing right now.

OOHRAH you are pure evil!!, pimping your child out to George Bush. You are disgusting.

Posted by The_Cynic at 2006-06-26 02:55 AM |


You really should think on some things a while before actually posting them. Your post is the lowest I've seen on this blog.

God talks to Bush and Satan talks to this guy. Anybody else see a pattern?

I'm really surprised this hasn't come up yet, but most Christians would not qualify this candidate as a "Christian." The article states he's LDS -- Latter Day Saints -- also known as the Mormon Church (Joseph Smith and all that). Since the LDS believes that the Bible as most Christians read it (Old Testament and New Testament) is incomplete without the final book of prophecy or whatever that Joseph Smith found, they wouldn't really be Christians. It would be more or less the same as calling bin Laden a Christian. I guess this really won't make that much of a difference to those of you who choose to just bash organized religion in general, but it may clarify the issue a bit more for those of you who aren't so rash.

On a side note. I am a liberal on many issues, and also a Christian. I'm disheartened that these seem to be mutually exclusive to many people. Some on the left choose to bash organized religion as a crutch for the weak-minded, which brings up the phrase for me, "Don't be so open-minded your brain falls out." Seriously: you sound like total pricks when you say things like that. On the other side, though, it REALLY bothers me that so many on the right wear Christianity on their sleeve and then act in ways that are very much not in stride with Christian beliefs. God knows that no Christian is perfect, but if you're wearing it on your sleeve, you should try a heckuva lot harder.

Dylan-
I agree. In trying to be "salt and light" we are thusly held to higher standards. More often than not, being human, we fail. :(

In all honesty I have wondered how libs who are Christians square the abortion debate with their faith. Same for euthenasia. Care to take a run at that one?

When's the last time you caught Dylan? Didn't he just have a birthday recently?

"the final book of prophecy or whatever that Joseph Smith found"

"Found" my ass, he made it up so he could schtupp little girls.

OohRah-
I just got back from Ireland and he played a date there, but my flight out was the next day and the venue was too far away. The only time I've seen him in concert was in 2003; too long and not often enough, unfortunately. His birthday is May 25, I think.

As for abortion, euthenasia, and gay marriage (there are some similarities), I approach these topics in several ways. First off, I try to look at candidates as a whole rather than a few issues. The impression I get from the right lately (politicians, not individuals) is that they are out to create wealth for industry and aren't focused on helping the poor, being good stewards of land (and, of late, money), etc., and I often see them bringing up wedge issues to gain votes, which riles me. As for the issues themselves...I have a lot of difficulty with them, honestly. For one, I try not to "vote my faith," so to speak. This makes me sound watered-down, I think, so let me elaborate. This works best with gay marriage. From what I've read in the Bible, I believe homosexuality is a sin (though sometimes I wonder if God had other things in mind, that Sodom was destroyed because of promiscuous sexuality, not homosexuality, etc.). However, I don't believe there is a legal reason for gays to be denied legal marriage privelages, and I don't believe that legislating morality is the right route (by making gay marriage illegal). The best route, I believe, is to lead a good example and let the Holy Spririt do its work. To save space (as I'm starting to ramble), apply the same arguments to abortion and euthanasia. Neither should be "on-demand" (something that I think is more a talking point of the right than a proposed policy of the left), but I think making them outright illegal will cause more problems than good.

Data-
I used the word "found" to try to be diplomatic. ;)

ps-(as if I haven't rambled enough) The other problem I have with "voting my faith" (again I cringe at the phrase, but I'm jet-lagged and can't think of anything that doesn't make me sound watered-down) is that I think it's a slippery slope. Where would it stop? I believe in the State not influencing the Church, and in the Church not influencing the State. If I vote for a candidate simply because he or she is against abortion or gay marriage, I feel I'm helping us down that slope towards a Western theocracy (read "Christian Iran"). I hope that makes sense.

I think there's an important distinction between voting for your beliefs and theocracy. "My constiuents oppose gay marriage and abortion on religious grounds" is an entirely different argument than "I am proposing this bill because of the contents of the Bible." Besides, asking people not to vote for their beliefs is just silly.

Dylan-
Sounds like you don't want to legislate morality if that morality is Biblicly-based. At least as it relates to gay marriage.

Where I'd question you is this: Aren't we legislating morality already via such things as outlawing "obvious" crimes like murder, theft, fraud etc.? On what basis do we consider those crimes crimes?

On homosexual marriage you could argue they're hurting no one else. Probably the same with drug abuse and possibly prostitution.

Not sure that argument jives with abortion.

P-ville
You're right, asking people not to vote their beliefs is just silly. I worded that poorly. But I don't see much difference between "My constituents oppose gay marriage and abortion on religious grounds" and "I am proposing this bill because of the contents of the Bible." The main difference is really the existence of constituents, but otherwise, what difference exists between "on religious grounds" and "because the Bible says so"? (other than the obvious mention of a specific religious text)

If you're looking at it from the perspective of what a majority of the people want it's always Democracy. (Though sometimes the majority can be silly. No booze on Sundays!)

Once people bring in "the Bible" as their source for lawmaking they'll lose a portion of our society who have no use for religion.

Let's say two people hold the same conservative views. But one claims the Bible as his source of authority and the other guy just feels it makes sense to reach that same conclusion (but not because the Bible told him to do so).

Is it someone's viewpoint that's politically incorrect OR is the Biblical reference the bigger problem?

You're right about my argument being stronger with gay marriage, and this is why I struggle with the abortion issue. If you vote solely on that issue (and as many people see abortion as a sort of "genocide," I can see why some people do), the right would obviously be much stronger. However, as I stated before, if you eliminate abortion as an issue, I feel the left generally (not always) does a better job reflecting positive, realistic values (generally, not always).

Back to abortion: the way I understand it, many who oppose abortion do so because they believe life begins at conception, an argument often backed up (though not always) with religious support. People who support choice believe that life begins at birth. I'll be the first to admit that my research into the topic doesn't have much depth, but I've never really seen anyone who advocates abortion as a normal method of birth-control, or really supports "abortion-on-demand." What I sense is a desire to protect the women who would seek out an abortion because they don't believe that life begins at conception. I wasn't alive at the time of Roe v Wade, but from what I understand, part of the problem was that women were seeking out abortions even though they were illegal, and were often resorting to unsanitary, unsafe methods of abortion. Legalizing abortion was more of a way to protect the health of those women rather than advocating murdering babies.

Since it is such a divisive issue, I've often felt that a reasonable compromise would be to limit abortions to the first trimester only. I'm not sure what current laws are regarding timing.

As for how to legislate morality, I think much of it derives from how our behavior affects other people. Behaviors that adversely or potentially adversely affect others are outlawed. Take seatbelt laws. I've heard that some people dislike seatbelt laws because it is the government intruding in their personal life, but if you think about what would happen if they were to get into an accident...the tax-payer cost of an ambulance, emergency care, cleaning the pavement, etc...you can see that not wearing a seatbelt potentially affects more people than just you.

I often flounder in deeper philosophical discussions...I hope I'm providing ample, logical feedback and don't sound like some poorly-educated whacko. ;)

"You really should think on some things a while before actually posting them. Your post is the lowest I've seen on this blog." - Posted by dirtman580e

No, the lowest would have been some time ago when Stop-The-Box-Itch applauded the near-mortal wounding of a US news crew in Iraq by a terrorist IED.

Oorah and dylanfan et all, it's so nice to read a discussion where one side doesn't call the other side a traitor, moron, etc. and actually have some discourse.
Very refreshing.

Dylan-
Thanks for the feedback. Abortion, much like war, has torn into our nation's fabric like few issues since slavery.

In my opinion the Roe v Wade was poorly decided as a "right to privacy." I know that'll open up a can of worms, but a big part of this whole issue is the fact that unelected judges have removed the public's ability to craft laws restricting/allowing abortion. That is destroys human life (fetus, unborn baby, or whatever you call it) is a true shame.

I read a couple years ago (I think just prior to the 2004 election) about how some writer made a point that abortion had probably cost Algore the 2000 election.

Can't recall the details, but it had to do with the demographics of those getting abortions (I wasn't aware that info was available) and the likelihood of a child following in his parents' political footsteps. That abortion apparently disproportionally affects minorities... and minorities tend to vote Democrat... the writer surmised the millions of lost voters disproportionally affected Democrats. Not sure there's a good way to quantify just how much but it made for some introspective thought.

BigJohn,
It's easy to get online and be a jerk. I think if you show others respect they will do the same. Not always, as I've seen, but often enough to keep me posting.

Will I change peoples' minds? Doubtful. But this forum is the purest form of political speech.

I used to work for a guy named Big John in Ohio years ago.

Another interesting point...I have heard of an author who makes an argument that abortion has lowered crime rates, using more or less the same logic as the writer who argued that it cost Al Gore the 2000 election (demographically, more poor people get abortions, and more poor people commit crime, so less poor people through abortion equals less crime). It makes me feel slimy to even think about it, but I guess it makes sense. I think the name of the book is Apples to Oranges, but I don't know the author. Just food for thought, it doesn't really further the conversation.

Interesting hypothesis. Common sense says it is probably true.

I think his name is Robert Steele - his recent book White Guilt sounds like it could be a good read. It deals with how predominately white western culture has wrestled with guilt over oppression/slavery and how that guilt is manifested in our social discourse as well as in how we conduct war.

Interesting hypothesis. Common sense says it is probably true.

I think his name is Robert Steele - his recent book White Guilt sounds like it could be a good read. It deals with how predominately white western culture has wrestled with guilt over oppression/slavery and how that guilt is manifested in our social discourse as well as in how we conduct war.

I read a couple years ago (I think just prior to the 2004 election) about how some writer made a point that abortion had probably cost Algore the 2000 election.

OohRah

But Al Gore didn't lose the election...did he....Bush stole 2 elections with Diebold's/Rove's help & that's that:>)

Absolutely, all those forces stole both elections and helped elect more Reps during the '02 midterms.

Abortion harms so many people in various ways. Lives that'll never be is but one outcome.

Abortion harms so many people in various ways. Lives that'll never be is but one outcome.

OohRah

Yet, Gensis 2:7 support pro-choice vs anti-choice!

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So the candidate is basically saying "If I lose, Satan wins"?

Get out there and elect this man so Satan doesn't get a stronghold in the congress!

This is a hack move if ever I saw one. Left, right, up or down, this man deserves to lose with tactics like these. If he can't stand up and be recognized for his own platform, then fuck him.

Bani-
I don't follow you. 2:7 supports pro choice? How's that?

Soul is eternal...as it enters a new body ~ life after life...thus, Gensis 2:7 says:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Where is the presume sin of abortion? Until Soul enters the body, there is no life as we know it.