India is not to blame.

Corporate greed is.

"Corporate greed is."
Posted by JimmyWallback at 2006-05-30 12:14 PM | Reply

Call it greed if you wish, but the truth is, if companies don't remain competitive, they go under. Then everyone loses their jobs.
I don't think there are any easy answers in the modern economy.

"Outsourcing to save jobs".


Now I have heard everything.

Poor bastard doesn't even realize when he and his countrymen are being exploited. Compares his people to a machine that does a job "more efficiently". I don't think effiency enters the picture, its just about CHEAPER. And I'm sorry, but I don't think Dell computers are any cheaper with all their customer service outsourced to India, and I for damned sure don't think it's any more EFFICIENT when I have to call for tech support.
And the money saved lines the pockets of the corporate CEOs and stockholders, not the consumers. It'll all come home to roost one day, when Americans (the largest and richest consumer base of the company that typically outsources) have maxed out their credit cards and can't afford to buy anything. Then they'll actually have to lower prices.... just can't wait.

I've never blamed India... they need jobs too. But this corporate spin (and Bush loves it too) that outsourcing is good for America so we can compete in a global economy is crap. I've seen documentaries on the living conditions of these sweatshop textile workers in India... how a supposed Christian nation can put up with that is beyond me. And yes, I'm a hypocrite.... but at least I'm honest enough to point it out

Outsourcing is nothing new. Even slaves, thousands of years ago, were a form of outsourcing.

Cheap foreign labor doing jobs Egyptians don't want.

There are boatloads of easy answers in corporate america these days. Just need to hire the right consultants to find them.

CEO need's a raise? Hire a compensation consultant. I wonder just how many of these compensation consultants actually recommend lowering CEO compensation. Not many I guess.

But this corporate spin (and Bush loves it too) that outsourcing is good for America so we can compete in a global economy is crap.

Posted by Sholagar at 2006-05-30 12:25 PM | Reply

I just loved the press briefing Bush gave about "Protecting America's Manufacturing" in a wharehouse and they had to remark the backdrop of boxes behind Bush because they all said "Made in China".

Priceless. You can't make anything better than that up.

I wonder if we lowered Congress' salary to federal minimum wage with no health insurance or retirement plan just how many of our so called servants wouldn't want to do those jobs anymore.

Vernon is right on, we need to revive slavery so that a few will control the rest, and the slaves can be thankful for being controlled!

Bravo.

Cut taxes some more.

To hell with the middle class.

Personal responsibility forever.

"Call it greed if you wish, but the truth is, if companies don't remain competitive, they go under. Then everyone loses their jobs.
I don't think there are any easy answers in the modern economy."


Hogwash. The only thing remaining competitive are CEO salaries; if Home Depot CEO gets 154 million for 6 years work, then doggonit Lowes is going to one up them with 160 million for their CEO.

Walmarts making record profits, yet their rank and file employee doesn't make above poverty level wages, and end up on welfare WHILE still working for Walmart. Where do those profits go?? Have you see how rich that family is (Waltons)??? How can you justify something so obscene by saying "its to remain competitive"? But hey, outsourcing is a good thing, Indians and Indonesians making 12 cents an hour with no benefits and no job security is a GOOD thing, so we can buy our elastic waistband sweat pants for 10$ at Walmart.

The Onion had a great article the other day, how expectant mothers in China are given a 15minute break (unpaid) to have her child, and then its back on the assembly line (with child).

Outsourcing and our Gov't backing of it is a wholesale endorsement of slave labor. Its how big business gets around minimum wage laws and benefit requirements. It won't be long before even businesses in the U.S. have to cut benefits in order to "compete" (keep their CEO profits up).

"Call it greed if you wish, but the truth is, if companies don't remain competitive"

Define "competitive" then show us some examples. Then explain to us how a company in the black is not "competitive" since they are making money, (not losing it).
Fact is these companies were in the black AND profitable, (lane furniture company as an example) but by moving operations overseas they became MORE profitable. That's translates to greed in simple black and white terms, (something Bush can even comprehend).

After a very nice "give me a break" by John Stossel on how outsourcing is good for America, I wrote an email to ABC, on how it would be good for America and ABC if they fired Stossel and replaced him with a younger, fitter, more aggressive fellow from India to do his job. Paramjeet would surely do more work for less money, just an all around win/win situation.
They didn't get back to me.

Wait until corporate executives, human-resource personnel, etc discover that they can be outsourced to India too! Hmmm, what's good for the goose ...

Does anyone think India's targeting of specific industries (like Information-Technology) could be considered a form of "terrorism"? Maybe economic-terrorism? What do we do with terrorist nations?

There is something despicable about deliberately undermining another nations employment base whatever is it.

Being in the IT area myself, I am now seeing Indians that are here being undermined by other Indians in India.

Gotta love all these expert economists blogging on the Retort.

There are real and actual experts for both sides of the argument. What speaks loudest is the numbers. How many more people are living in poverty now than 10 years ago? How large is the middle class, and what is considered middle class these days?

"Vernon is right on, we need to revive slavery so that a few will control the rest, and the slaves can be thankful for being controlled!"

Vernon is a corporate shill. So what else is new?

Companies dont outsource to "remain competitive".

They outsource for two reasons:

1. because managers view outsourcing as some kind of magical thing which has no problems and saves all kinds of money. They are conveniently ignoring all the data which shows outsourcing actually costs MORE than having staff.

But that's how a lot of these worthless management people operate: they go with the latest trends in an effort to make it look like they are doing something. They outsource jobs, than in a few years they put together a plan to hire people on (and it's usually just some other dumb fuck who 'works' by telling consultants what to do).

2. Outsourcing gives a temporary illusion of doing good, because for a few quarters your payroll disappears (the lag time between severance and the outsourcing bill coming in).

The 'value' of a company is ultimately the people working there. So companies outsourcing are actually DEvaluing their companies.

And, from an investment point of view, when I hear companies are outsourcing jobs, that screams "sell" (or even short-sell, sometimes) to me. Outsourcing is a sign of weakness: it means the management doesn't know what it's doing, it means it's leadership is failing.

I've also seen Mexicans here undermined when their factory closes and moves to Mexico.
In CEO mentality, why pay a Mexican 6 bucks an hour here when you can pay a Mexican 1 dollar an hour in Mexico?
AND not worry about healthcare, AND not worry about the EPA, AND not worry about OSHA, etc, etc, etc.


The issue here is more trade deficits, balance, than just outsourcing. If there's balance, than the money sent to India comes back and that means American jobs and everyone wins.

But this situation between us and the 3rd world is unsustainable where we're hemoraging hundreds of billions of dollars each year that isn't comming back to the American economy.

Trade must be balanced.

"blaming India and other countries will not solve their problems"

This guy is arguing against a premise that does not exist. The only complaints I've heard about Indians when it comes to outsourcing to India has come from customers upset by undertrained customer service reps who can't speak English in a way that is decipherable to Americans.

"Kind of makes the whole American right/left thing seem sort of benign."

YEAH!
Now maybe you see why we conservatives have been trying to up the ante! You know, pit American against American on ideology, faith and fear. Soon by the grace of our republican god you liberals will be hiding in closets as the conservative police raid your homes and haul your families off to the "work centers".

Gotta stay "competitive" and the only way to do that is by abandoning our principle in favor of making more money!

Death to anyone who gets in the way of my profits so saith the lord.
Praise Jesus, Amen.

Kind of makes the whole American right/left thing seem sort of benign.

Posted by Biscuit at 2006-05-30 01:27 PM | Reply

To give away our technology and right of self defense in exchange for 57cents/hour labor improves quarterly profits at the long term expense of middle class America. On top of that East Indians and other foreigners, which the United States has its global market and military reach aimed at, get preferential admittance to American schools. All paid for by working Americans, who are the losers at every stage of this transition. The journalists are correct only in the sense that no one can turn back the clock.

There are real and actual experts for both sides of the argument. What speaks loudest is the numbers. How many more people are living in poverty now than 10 years ago? How large is the middle class, and what is considered middle class these days?

Posted by bigjohn_1972 at 2006-05-30 01:17 PM

John,
Are the 11-20 million illegal aliens included in your numbers? It would seem to me if you import unskilled, uneducated immigrants and put them on a payroll that is used in National statistics poverty would go up. Not even including the offspring of the immigrants.

As for the other hogwash being posted regarding the CEO salaries to the rank and file...
1.2 million: The number of Wal-Mart associates in the U.S. Any full- or part-time Wal-Mart employee, up to and including the CEO, is considered an "associate," in Wal-Mart parlance. Internationally, Wal-Mart employs an additional 330,000 associates.

If you were to give back the salary of the CEO and split that amongst the rank and file each one would recieve about $25.00. (30 million divided by 1.2 million)

How many jobs have these rank and file created?

JSG,

The 'value' of a company is ultimately the people working there. So companies outsourcing are actually DEvaluing their companies.

And, from an investment point of view, when I hear companies are outsourcing jobs, that screams "sell" (or even short-sell, sometimes) to me. Outsourcing is a sign of weakness: it means the management doesn't know what it's doing, it means it's leadership is failing.

It is too bad the neocon right just don't see this fact. They continue to look in short term profit never realizing that when the loss come in it will be far greater than if they didn't outsource in the first place.

A company is nothing without its' people.

How many jobs have these rank and file created?

Tell me, how many jobs did the CEO of Wally world create. Now, don't list the jobs that would have been created if he was not there.

Also remove all the subsidies walmart received to start up those new stores and last year alone walmart receive 1.2 billion dollars. So it would appear our government is creating the low shit jobs and guess what, the walmart execs CEO gets the reward.

Do try and misshape the reality again though, it was sort of fun.

Crass/moneywar, Are you saying that the jobs being created by companies have nothing to do with who is in charge?

Crassus,
Do you piss and moan at Alex Rodriguez making 250 million? How about Shaquille O'neal making 25 million a year? Let's talk about Hollywood and Tom Hanks making 20 million a film?

You watch the games and go to the movies with no regard to the money they make. But mention a CEO of a Company....

But this situation between us and the 3rd world is unsustainable where we're hemoraging hundreds of billions of dollars each year that isn't comming back to the American economy.

Trade must be balanced.

Posted by Norm_ at 2006-05-30 01:26 PM | Reply

But it is Norm. We send them all our money and they send us cheap plastic crap or customer service that you cannot understand.

Eberly/rightisright/paleocon,

Are you saying that the jobs being created by companies have nothing to do with who is in charge?

I said nothing of the sort but if you read my post instead of trying to make a crappy assertion I might show a little more respect for you.

For all the people who scream about the loss of manufacturing jobs in the country, I wonder how many have actually worked them? I worked on an assembly line making concrete lintles--absolutely the worst job I've ever had in my life. Twice a month I had to clean out the cement mixers with big jackhammers; hard to believe when you look at me now, but I was the smallest guy on the crew then, so it fell on me to get up into the cone. Could not WAIT to get a job in the service economy.

Later, the company completely automated and laid off everyone. For a couple of years I kept track of a few of the guys I worked with. Two of them opened a lawn maintenance business together, another became a pool contractor. One of the others opened his own concrete supply place. How many of you believe that we all would have been better off working there? How many of you believe that women were all better off working in crowded telephone centers for AT&T, before they went to a computerized routing system and the Bells were the number one employer of women in the world?

I said nothing of the sort but if you read my post instead of trying to make a crappy assertion I might show a little more respect for you.

Posted by Crassus


Fine Moneywar, I will answer your question. Millions and millions of jobs have been created by the CEO of Wal-mart.

A company is nothing without its' people.

Posted by Crassus at 2006-05-30 02:07 PM | Reply

That is because the corporatists view employees as a commodity to exploited at the lowest cost.

Look at the Delphi situation... they declare bankruptcy and ask the employees to take a 2/3 pay cut. How many of you would work for 1/3 of what you made yesterday without making a stink?

Then Delphi asks the bankruptcy trustee to approve a multi million dollar bonus package for management.

Their used to be a time when management and labor were considered to be partners in business. Now management and government are partners in the screwing over of the middle class, you know the "mythical" little guy.

Crispee,

Your sports pay idea is quite wrong you see. I like that because now your saying that the actual laborers should be getting paid millions while the CEO does make as much.

Keep that kind of thinking up, it ruins the whole idea of what your trying to debate as good.

Do try one more time to justify the idea of CEO's working for the betterment of America though.

Later, the company completely automated and laid off everyone. For a couple of years I kept track of a few of the guys I worked with. Two of them opened a lawn maintenance business together, another became a pool contractor. One of the others opened his own concrete supply place. How many of you believe that we all would have been better off working there? How many of you believe that women were all better off working in crowded telephone centers for AT&T, before they went to a computerized routing system and the Bells were the number one employer of women in the world?

Posted by rightisright


Don't confuse this with commonsense RIR. Some of these guys end up like bill O'reilly and sit around all day and bitch about it and blame it all on "corporate shills"

How many jobs have these rank and file created?


Posted by crispee_oc at 2006-05-30 02:06 PM | Reply

Without the associates there is no Wal Mart and no huge salary package for the CEO.

Eberly/rightisright/paleocon,

I will answer your question. Millions and millions of jobs have been created by the CEO of Wal-mart.

Like I said, you want me to show you some respect, show me some respect.

Delusional thinking earns you none.

Crass,

I live for your respect. Crispee took the income of a CEO and spread it out over all rank and file employees and it came out to $25.

care to comment on that?

Later, the company completely automated and laid off everyone. For a couple of years I kept track of a few of the guys I worked with. Two of them opened a lawn maintenance business together, another became a pool contractor. One of the others opened his own concrete supply place. How many of you believe that we all would have been better off working there? How many of you believe that women were all better off working in crowded telephone centers for AT&T, before they went to a computerized routing system and the Bells were the number one employer of women in the world?

Posted by rightisright

Don't confuse this with commonsense RIR. Some of these guys end up like bill O'reilly and sit around all day and bitch about it and blame it all on "corporate shills"

Posted by eberly at 2006-05-30 02:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

How pathetic is this individual, answering his own altered identity.

Takes a real flash in the pants at this, next we will see him answering his third ID of paleocon.

Crispee,

Your sports pay idea is quite wrong you see. I like that because now your saying that the actual laborers should be getting paid millions while the CEO does make as much.

Posted by Crassus at 2006-05-30 02:41 PM

Crassus,
You have no clue what I am saying. Your pathetic arguement has no worth outside Drudge. I am saying the amount the CEO makes has to do with the overall profit of the Company they represent. If the Company expands they hire more workers.

You want to compare a low skilled worker to an educated proven CEO?

How pathetic is this individual, answering his own altered identity.

Takes a real flash in the pants at this, next we will see him answering his third ID of paleocon.

Posted by Crassus


Hits home doesn't it Moneywar?

Gotta go, promise to get back to this later.

Do try one more time to justify the idea of CEO's working for the betterment of America though.

Posted by Crassus

* * * *

Not the CEO's job to work "for the betterment of America." Their job is to work for the betterment of the owners of the company. The owners, which are made up of thousands of individuals, small business owners, widows, pension plans, mutual funds, 401k's, and a whole lot of liberals and conservatives alike, demand a better return on their money than other investments. Simple as that.

You want to compare a low skilled worker to an educated proven CEO?

So are you suggesting your not with emphasis an unskilled labor? How did you rceive this classification?

CEO no more contribute to the company grouth than the unskilled labor. In fact, the unskilled labor is the reason the company grows. And you omit the idea that this supposed unskilled labor is uneducated.

The difference between the top and bottom is less to do with education and more to do with information availability.

RiR,
Funny how Crassus only sees the little box.Instead of the big picture. How many millions of pensions are invested in these so called evil American corporations? If you were invested in any of the portflios, wouldn't you want the best and brightest running the Company?

Yet Crassus thinks a CEO is as valuable to a Company as the rank and file.

Rightisright,

Gotta go, promise to get back to this later.

Posted by eberly at 2006-05-30 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Seems you did not have to go after all, HR Block kind of slow these days? Or are you worried about your house from posting as Paleocon?

"You want to compare a low skilled worker to an educated proven CEO?"

You mean like one that get's fired, say Carly Fiorina, and gets a 20 million dollar going away present?

Crispee,

Funny how Crassus only sees the little box.Instead of the big picture.

Interesting, this big picture you see and the direction we are heading is good by your terms.

Tell me if we continue on this great path of labor force where will America be sitting?

RisR-

Nice anecdote, but the service industry does nothing in a macroeconomic sense except move money around, unless your economy is based upon tourism.

The fact of the matter is America has more money leaving the country than it has coming in. The Fundies falsely assume, just like they did in the civil war, that the world's preferece on one of their resources will force them to put up with anything they do.

In the Civil War, the Confederates thought the world would be on their side in order to keep getting cheap cotton. Obviously they were wrong.

Now, the Fundies think the world will always support America in order to rely on the US dollar. The only problem is that the Fundies are forced to devalue the dollar to entice foreign countries to continue buying into their failing economy. At some point, it's going to crash, and we will all be paying heavily for their failed leadership... interestingly, these Republifundie leaders will profit heavily by their failure, so it isnt failure so much as it is willful destruction.

Not the CEO's job to work "for the betterment of America."

I knew you would say something like this. So what you are saying is no one should be thinking about the betterment of America but should be thinking about earning more profit.

Yep, that will truely make this country strong, the only thing wrong is who is getting the money and who is not.

Bill O,

Under Hewlett-Packard's severance agreement, Carly Fiorina received US$14 million in cash, which was 2.5 times her base salary and target bonus. HP also paid her US$5.88 million under its 2003-2004 long-term performance cash program, and US$1.5 million, which was the pro-rated amount of her awards under the 2004-2005 program. Her total severance package was estimated to total US$42 million. (Source: [1], 14 February 2005)

HP is a technology solutions provider to consumers, businesses and institutions globally. The company's offerings span IT infrastructure, global services, business and home computing, and imaging and printing. For the four fiscal quarters ended Oct. 31, 2005, HP revenue totaled $86.7 billion. More information about HP (NYSE, Nasdaq: HPQ) is available at www.hp.com.

Seems to me she earned the compensation package. If you were to give that money to the employees of HP they would have received about $278.00 each.

Crispee, you're full of it.

The only problem is that the Fundies are forced to devalue the dollar to entice foreign countries to continue buying into their failing economy.

* * * *

You've got that backwards. A falling dollar HURTS companies that export goods here, because it makes their product more expensive. Plus, why would a foreign country buy into a failing economy with a declining currency? To see their investments go bad?

Only one reason foreign investors buy US bonds, US factories, US stocks--they will see a better return on their money here, than elsewhere. How would you have liked to have owned a big position in Venezuelan oil companies, just before Chavez stole it all? How about a big investment in Nigeria, before the government took it all away? Why not load up on Brazilian companies, just before the government devalued and you were left with pennies on the dollar?

Tell me an example where an average american worker gets fired, and walks away with millions of severance pay.

Corporate shills are out on force on this thread.

So what you are saying is no one should be thinking about the betterment of America but should be thinking about earning more profit.

* * *

Didn't say that. The job of a CEO is to make the owners happy with the returns on their investment. When the company makes money, it pays taxes. It is able to provide a good living for their employees. It is able to contribute to their communities. It is providing a valuable service to their customers.

When a company is NOT making money, none of those things are happening. And the difference between a company that is profitable and one that is not has a whole lot less to do with the schmos turing a screwdriver on an assembly line, and a whole lot to do with the people who are planning strategy, leveraging their banking relationships, finding new customers, innovating, and pushing their company forward. If you could go back in time, and you had $100,000 to take back to 1980, would you give it to Bill Gates or Michael Dell--proven geniuses at maximizing wealth? Or would you buy a whole lot of Commodore or Atari?

The only difference were the CEO's--you'd get rich going one way, and go broke doing the other.

Crispee, you're full of it.

Posted by Bill_OReilly at 2006-05-30 03:17 PM

I am full of it "Common Sense"

Corporate shills are out on force on this thread.

* * *

So are the socialists.

Only one reason foreign investors buy US bonds, US factories, US stocks--they will see a better return on their money here, than elsewhere.

Now you the shill, the only thing they have to trade with is U.S. dollars.

You don't think we are threatening Iran because of nukular quest do you. Iran is threatening to move oil selling from US dollars to Euros.

The simple fact that these countries are taking the U.S. business' out of their country's pictures shows you lack of global economic reality. They are trying to get off the U.S. currency trade because they can only come to the US.

So are the socialists.

And the facists, communists, dictatorships, but the remaining fact is that the neocon shills still don't understand what the long term effect of their support in this downing of America will do.

Didn't say that. The job of a CEO is to make the owners happy with the returns on their investment. When the company makes money, it pays taxes. It is able to provide a good living for their employees. It is able to contribute to their communities. It is providing a valuable service to their customers.

Tell me how Walmart is doing this? Tell me how Levi's is doing this?

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about just shilling the corporate line bull shit to protect you investment ass. You investers are the single most corrupt, downing, unpatriotic American in this country. The simple fact is you could careless about America, just that you are able to make money off of others and if they lose their job, so what, I still get my money.

Your the real loser.

You don't think we are threatening Iran because of nukular quest do you. Iran is threatening to move oil selling from US dollars to Euros.


* * * *

LOL. Well, in that case, why are the Europeans threatening Iran? Are they stupid? Or do you suppose there might be more to the story whether or not the Iranians cash their checks in Frankfurt or in New York?
Funny. Let the Iranians accept the euros. So what? Don't you think it's funny that Norway and the Netherlands price their oil in dollars, and not euros? Hmmmm. Maybe they know something you don't.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about just shilling the corporate line bull shit to protect you investment ass. You investers are the single most corrupt, downing, unpatriotic American in this country. The simple fact is you could careless about America, just that you are able to make money off of others and if they lose their job, so what, I still get my money.

Your the real loser.

Posted by Crassus at 2006-05-30 03:33 PM

That has to be the most ignorant posting I have read on Drudge.

Crassus is saying if you work hard and put in the hours and better yourself you are unpatriotic? This guy has got to be a socialist at heart or a fool.

LOL. Well, in that case, why are the Europeans threatening Iran?

So you think the european market sould survive the fall of the U.S.'s?

Your economic globalism is lacking.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about just shilling the corporate line bull shit to protect you investment ass. You investers are the single most corrupt, downing, unpatriotic American in this country. The simple fact is you could careless about America, just that you are able to make money off of others and if they lose their job, so what, I still get my money.

Your the real loser.


* * * *

LOL, again. Good luck getting a factory built without investors, retard. Good luck finding a bank to loan you money, without investors in the bank allowing that to be possible. Good luck finding a poor person to give you a job.

Investors are optimists, and believe that tomorrow will be better today. That's why we INVEST money, rather than spend it now. We're not pessimists like you, always whining about this or that, promising doom and gloom. If you're right and I'm wrong, all you have to lose is your sorry job; I have at risk much, much more. So I ask you, who is more interested in the future of America? You, a pathetic loser who hates everything that makes money? Or me?

And BTW, how do you invest? Do you look for companies that suck? Whose management is incompetent? Or do you try to do better than that? And does that make YOU an un-American bastard? LOL. Do yourselves a favor--plenty of rich liberals around, who have a lot of interesting things to say. Read up on those guys, then come back. The discussions here will be more interesting then.

Crassus is saying if you work hard and put in the hours and better yourself you are unpatriotic?

Your saying your working hard? Well, all those supposed unskilled workers were doing what.....posting on drudge!

LOL, again. Good luck getting a factory built without investors, retard.

I don't see alot of factories being built here in America for all the money the corporations are pulling in.

What? your delusional neoclassical ideals are not turning out in reality. Why is that?

Wonder how those factories in India, new ones popping up everyday, and in China, and in indonesia, and in malaysia, etc..... but it is the U.S. corporations that are building them.

yep! Your surely showing the patriotism for America and its people.

Crass,
You are in the dream world. You think these CEO's woke up and became leaders of Corporations?.

You refuse to acknowledge the hours of work they put in, where they started, how much education they went through, the sacrifices they might have made to move up the corporate ladder. Instead you spew hate because they are successful. Why is that?

Investors are optimists, and believe that tomorrow will be better today. That's why we INVEST money, rather than spend it now.

Now this statement has to be the most delusional and dumbest of them all.

Investing money in India, china, and the likes is real optimism at its finest. I don't know about you but last time I looked we are spending more than we are making.

Marcus Licinius Crassus Dives (Latin: MLICINIVSPFPNCRASSVS) (ca. 115 BC53 BC) was a Roman general and politician who suppressed the slave revolt led by Spartacus and entered into a secret pact, known as the First Triumvirate, with Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus and Gaius Julius Caesar. One of the richest men of the era, he was killed after a defeat at Carrhae.

You don't live up to your name do you Crassus?

Crispee,

You refuse to acknowledge the hours of work they put in, where they started, how much education they went through, the sacrifices they might have made to move up the corporate ladder.

You act as though no one else has done any sacrifices. Well, I would say there are millions of Americans who are sacrificing today for your corporate shills to gain there money and in particular at the hands of the very Americans who are sacrificing.

Are you daft? United, Enron ring any kind of picture for ya.

You don't live up to your name do you Crassus?

He was the 3rd richest in Rome. Seems kind of poetic doesn't it.

Crass,
I am the antonym of "daft". Thank you very much.

don't see alot of factories being built here in America for all the money the corporations are pulling in.

* * * *

Of course you don't. Pessimists don't see anything like that.

Or maybe you just live in a depressed area, which isn't seeing any new factories and businesses. Come to Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Georgia, North Florida, Texas. The factories, the feeder plants--a factory that was going to the Montgomery area declared they would have to move, because the new Hyundai, Budweiser, and Coca-Cola plants there have snapped up all the available work force. Try heading over to Mississippi, where Nissan builds cars that are 100% American made, and dozens of communities have sprung up around them, with high-paying jobs of their own.

Or, don't do those things, stick your money in a mattress for when doomsday comes, and learn what you can from fellow socialists on the Drudge Retort. Not exactly a recipe for a prosperous future, but free country and all that.

"Well, in that case, why are the Europeans threatening Iran? Are they stupid? Or do you suppose there might be more to the story whether or not the Iranians cash their checks in Frankfurt or in New York?"

BP developed the first Iranian oil fields prior to WW2. The civilian Iranian government nationalized them after WW2 when they realized BP was getting rich off their "investment" but Iran wasn't getting much from the deal. Then BP successfully lobbied their government (with help from Eisenhower and the US CIA) to stage a coup d'etat and make the Shah the top dog, kept in power for decades with his own secret police also sponsored by us and the British. Then Gerald Ford (with his chief of staff, Donald Rumsfeld and Cheney/Wolfowitz) arranged to start up an Iranian nuclear program in 1975, including plutonium enrichment for weapons use after Ford was successfully lobbied for the program by Westinghouse and GE because they had multi-million dollar deals going with the Shah. Then the Iranians kicked out the Shah and now the theocrats have control of the nuclear programs that we may have to nuke to stop them from nuking us first.

So, yeah. There's more to the story. And the question should be more, "are we stupid?"

Bernie Ebbers.
Richard Scrushy.
Denny Kozlowski.
Andy Fastow.
Kenny Boy Lay.
Jeff Skilling.
Martin Grass.

And ... SANJAY KUMAR.

And the question should be more, "are we stupid?"

* * *

Or maybe it should be, are the Iranians stupid? We dropped a bomb on Hiroshima in 1945--that's 61 years ago. If they've had "control of the nuclear programs" since 1975, with equipment put there by Westinghouse and GE no less, why haven't they been able to do much except make some whirly thingies in 31 years?

Geniuses, those Iranians.

RIR,

Moneywar and Bill O are just guys who have fallen victim to idea that corporations are bad because people are affected by economic reality.

They choose to cite Enron, Worldcom and other companies who obviously have some issues with ethics and use them as a basis for their argument. That proves how un-objective they really are and that they can't be reasoned with.

The truth is that I personally work with many manufacturing companies whose plants are located right here in the USA. they are growing and they are hiring more people all the time.

It is really sad to see such miserble and angry people who never have anything positive to say.

True enough.

In an effort to attract a new Nissan factory, Mississippi severely abused its eminent domain powers.

"In 2000, Mississippi went hog wild in outbidding neighboring states for the Nissan factory by offering a fat package of close to $300 million in subsidies and tax breaks. The deal included $80 million from the state to train Nissan's new workers. Also included was a pledge to "quick-take" the property of three families and give it to Nissan so it could build a parking lot and access road for the factory."

Source: Wall St. Journal, Jan 06, 2002

Yep! Rightisright,

Nissan used its money to build this factory, it gained profits and used government subsidies to build the factory and a few other questionable tac tics to build the factory.

Not what I would call your investment practice of reality you keep spouting about.

I'd argue in favor of a little "balance".

Corporations/shareholders have a right to expect a return on their investment (cash) that's proportional to their risk. Working stiffs have a right to expect fair compensation for their investment (labor), compensation better than a Pullman town.

It's whether you think you and your neighbor are better off living in "Bedford Falls" or "Pottersville". We're tilting toward Pottersville, I prefer the Bedford Falls life.

Bush has been bringing "Enron-style accounting practices" to the US government since 2001.

If there is any justice in the world, Bush and his entire crime family will be occupying the same prison wing as Lay and Skilling, all for the rest of their lives.

Crass/moneywar, who threw you out on your ass? Obviously somebody did.

The Jackson plants for Nissan export 21,000 vehicles overseas. Here is a company, in the United States, that is thriving while sending vehicles to China. It sold over 340,000 cars and SUV's last year.

So what's the problem again? That MS spent some money to attract the plant?

Matter of fact, what's your problem with everything? Have you ever had a good day?

It's whether you think you and your neighbor are better off living in "Bedford Falls" or "Pottersville". We're tilting toward Pottersville, I prefer the Bedford Falls life.


* * * *
Maybe you should move. Sounds like you don't have a very nice place.

Eberly/rightisright/paleocon,

who threw you out on your ass? Obviously somebody did

Sorry, I am a manager of a manufacturing plant I just think long term about this country not short term profit for very few individuals.

One who claims to be patriotic is sure short sighted in this respect.

The truth is that I personally work with many manufacturing companies whose plants are located right here in the USA. they are growing and they are hiring more people all the time.

Is this right, well tell me the facts about these great manufacturing companies. If what you spouting is true why does the facts say the manfacturing is declining at alarming rates, not decreasing like you posting suggests.

Come on now, get with it, you seem to be in the know that manufacturing in this country is on the rise lets see some facts not conjecture, hyperbole, and solipsisms.

You have little understanding as to manufacturing, and the actual processes.
Cars for example, rotors? break pads? pistons? rings? bushings? where are they manufactured, at one time they were done here in the U.S.

You sit around here and you spin your little webs and you think the whole world revolves around you and your money. Well, it doesn't, Mr. RiR. In the whole vast configuration of things, I'd say you were nothing but a scurvy little spider.

The Jackson plants for Nissan export 21,000 vehicles overseas. Here is a company, in the United States, that is thriving while sending vehicles to China. It sold over 340,000 cars and SUV's last year.

What do you fucking know about the plant, not very much. Your statement makes it sound like this plant is global when in fact the very existance of the plant is not for foriegn trade but to just build cars for the US and only the US.

If your going to tell a story, get the facts correct and not fabricate an omittance like reality.

You act as if this is nation wide because of one plant put in mississippi never even considering how many other manufacturing plants have left this country.

You can try and put spin to my wanting America people stronger to your wanting few rich and corporate elites stronger all you want, but mark my words, you will get it in the end. And what you get I can assure you, through history, you will not like it.

"Sorry, I am a manager of a manufacturing plant I just think long term about this country not short term profit for very few individuals"


You aren't able to admit to obviously being Moneywar and you expect me to believe that crap! You should be sorry.


Money, I'm only telling how my life works in reality, not cutting and pasting articles. I know we are shipping jobs overseas. I know pain accompanies that process.

You have experienced that pain obviously Money.

"Look at you. You used to be so cocky, Mr. Biscuit. You claimed you were going to go out and conquer the world. You once called me "a warped, frustrated, old man!" Who are you but a warped, frustrated young man, crawling in here on your hands and knees begging for help. No securities, no stocks, no bonds. Nothin' but a miserable little $500 equity in a life insurance policy. You're worth more dead than alive."

Posted by rightisright

Fact is manufacturing output in the United States is at record levels. What is happening is that factories are more efficient than ever. The percentage of Americans working in manufacturing is down by 2/3 since World War 2, but industrial output is up over 11 times during the same period.


This isn't unique to the US. Germany, Japan, Britain, and the Netherlands have all seen similar figures. And, China's got plenty of problems too: they've lost over 15 million jobs since 1995 in manufacturing as THEY have become more efficient producers.

What do you fucking know about the plant, not very much. Your statement makes it sound like this plant is global when in fact the very existance of the plant is not for foriegn trade but to just build cars for the US and only the US.

* * * * *

You're so funny. I happen to be in the plant three times a quarter, handling pensions.

It does NOT build cars for the US only--you made that up. You have to stop doing that, because soon enough you'll have to change your username again.

That plant exported over 20,000 vehicles abroad last year. Your ignorance of that fact, and so many others, doesn't change it. They are shipping cars to China, from right down here in Mississippi.

Have you ever sold anything in China? No--but you buy all your cheap stuff from there, then come on here and bitch about it. Then when somebody does, you say, no--he doesn't really. You're really pretty dumb.

Eberly is Rightisright is Paleocon,

I'm only telling how my life works in reality, not cutting and pasting articles. I know we are shipping jobs overseas. I know pain accompanies that process.

You have experienced that pain obviously

Yes, ever layoff employees knowing that the job is going to be done by a foriegn country. Knowing that the company invested, built and transfered all the skill, knowledge, and actual technical skill to the foriegn country to undermine the labor here and than calls them unskilled.

Your little solipsism is nothing to the reality of what is going on in this nation. And the simple fact that you think what is going on in your little neck of the world is the same country wide tells wonders about educational prowess. Your a smart guy, I know this to be true but how you can sit back and watch the downing of the American people for the short term gain of the corporation shocks me.

Your shooting from the hip hoping we will over come the short fall is so Bushite and error proned that is rearing its ugly head every day. How is it you don't see this.

"how you can sit back and watch the downing of the American people for the short term gain of the corporation shocks me"



It isn't short term gain for one - but rather long term gain and necessary for survivability. What is so shocking about that? This has been debated to death here and we come back to the same place. What you call "corporate gain" I call necessary for survivability.

the company you work for has to do this. Do you have a better idea? I'm sure the owners of the company you work for would like to hear it.

It does NOT build cars for the US only--you made that up. You have to stop doing that, because soon enough you'll have to change your username again.

Ghosn always thought Nissan's future depended on continuously increasing its U.S. market share. To do that, the company needed to make cars Americans wanted, like full-size pickups and SUVs. Incredibly, Nissan didn't offer either back then. In 2000, Ghosn launched a catch-up program to create the vehicles. Because they would be designed for Americans and sold only in the United States, he decided against making them in Japan.

I call necessary for survivability.

Who's suvivability and at what expense.

It about the future, and you think these corpoarations are looking into our future say 30 years from now.

Come on, you see the sham of this future and continue to support its short term gain.

I am all for corporate growth and profit but with respect to all of our society of America not just corporate America.

We are losing our industrial power base, it is evident every day, the loss in education, the rise in poverty, the loss in wage, and it will not get better but will get worse.

How far must it go before YOU say oops! I may have miss judged and we could be in trouble now as a nation?

Come on, you see the sham of this future and continue to support its short term gain.

Posted by Crassus


What short term? It is all long term. You can like it or not but it isn't short term.

Which jobs do you want us to bring back?

$363 million divided by 2000 jobs (neglecting the "host" of suppliers) is $181,500 per new Nissan employee. What a deal.

What short term? It is all long term. You can like it or not but it isn't short term.

Which jobs do you want us to bring back?

Conjecture hyperbole at best here. You can say all you want it is about long term but the fact of the matter you have nothing nothing what so ever to back up your assertion.

It is not about bringing back jobs, that is too late I am afraid, it is about not losing anymore.

You say it is long term, tell me how you think this is long term other than saying it is about long term.

Tell me how a nation of sales associates is long term thinking I am all ears.

Biscuit,

$363 million divided by 2000 jobs (neglecting the "host" of suppliers) is $181,500 per new Nissan employee. What a deal.

They will never ever in their life time understand what you are showing them.

He understands. As long as the residents of Pottersville don't get it, Mr. Potter is getting rich.

I just accept that those who have a problem with CEO salaries have bought into the whole 'class envy' rhetoric(sp?) of the far left. It's easy to hate someone who has something you havn't - and that's been exploited well over the years. I'm not rich (should have applied myself and finished that 4th years of college), but I accept that I'm where I am in life because I'm responsible for me. If I want a better job, more money I don't whine, I either get more education, take on increased responsibilities, etc.

Just for the record - if you took the millions from the CEO it wouldn't automatically go to employees [they're paid the going wage for the jobs they accepted], rather it would go to the stockholders as either increased value of their stock, or dividends, etc.

I notice how Eberly when asked to define his rhetoric limps away with narry a word.

"outsourcing"....I wonder what the buzz word will be when General Motors breaks its union and replaces them with 'guest workers". Is that, technically, 'in-sourcing'?

BTW, GM has already said this...it's not some 'liberal' thing. It's a 'jobs' thing.

The whole "they're doing jobs Americans won't do" is just the catch phrase to get the bill passed. Wait until you start seeing all the "jobs americans don't want to do".....like building your american-made car...here in America...but not by Americans.

I can only imagine the other industries that will soon follow.

RiR,
You are trying to deal with someone who claims Investors are the most corrupt, and unpatriotic Americans.

He believes job security is more important than advancing technology. Last time I looked machines didn't have sick days, didn't have drug or drinking problems, didn't need a lunch break, didn't need health or unemployment insurance.Didn't choose not to advance themselves or change with the times
Didn't waste Company time blogging on Drudge.