Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Friday, March 17, 2017

Facing a bread shortage that is spawning massive lines and souring the national mood, the Venezuelan government is responding this week by detaining bakers and seizing establishments. In a press release, the National Superintendent for the Defense of Socioeconomic Rights said it had charged four people and temporarily seized two bakeries as the socialist administration accused bakers of being part of a broad "economic war" aimed at destabilizing the country. ... The notion that bread could become an issue in Venezuela is one more indictment of an economic system gone bust. The country boasts the world's largest oil reserves but it has to import just about everything else.

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Juan Crespo, the president of the Industrial Flour Union called Sintra-Harina, which represents 9,000 bakeries nationwide, said the government's heavy hand isn't going to solve the problem.

"The government isn't importing enough wheat," he said. "If you don't have wheat, you don't have flour, and if you don't have flour, you don't have bread."

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Keep watching kids. This just keeps getting better. Maybe Sean Penn and Bernie can load up a couple of boats of flour for them.

#1 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-03-17 07:49 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"National Superintendent for the Defense of Socioeconomic Rights"

Or "Bernie" for short.

#2 | Posted by HanoverFist at 2017-03-17 08:39 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

An economy based on oil fails because oil prices fall, surprise. Let's not talk about the fact that Russia, Saudi ARabia and N. Dakota are all facing the same fate. It isn't necessarily socialism that is failing here, it's more like an economy based on fossil fuels. Oh, how is West Virginia doing?

#3 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-17 08:41 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

I was just in West Virginia over the weekend. Guess what I didn't see: people standing in line for loaves of bread. I'm guessing they're doing just fine.

#4 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-03-17 08:44 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#3,

Danni,

So basically what you are saying is, eventually, you run out of other people's money?

#5 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 08:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"So basically what you are saying is, eventually, you run out of other people's money?"

YOu obviously didn't understand my post, too many big words, what?

"Guess what I didn't see: people standing in line for loaves of bread. I'm guessing they're doing just fine."

Food stamps, Medicaid, etc. which I don't begrudge them but to pretend there isn't poverty in W. Virginia because of their reliance on the coal industry which is like relying on the buggy whip industry, is to deny reality. Now the liar who promised to bring their jobs back, but won't be able to because coal is over, wants to take away their food stamps, their medicare, etc. and you voted for this ------- didn't you? Don't paint me as the person against the folks in West Virginia, I sympathize with them and I am willing to pay my taxes to help them while you and your fellow conservatives pretend to be their freinds even as you try to pull the rug out from under them. I'm just sad that the folks in West Virginia have a hard time recognizing who their friends are and who their enemies are, you could probably pretend to be a freind there but you'd be a liar while doing so.

#6 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-17 08:53 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

I was just in West Virginia over the weekend. Guess what I didn't see: people standing in line for loaves of bread. I'm guessing they're doing just fine.

#4 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-03-17 08:44 AM | Reply | Flag:

West Virginia the second poorest State next to Mississippi.

en.wikipedia.org

West Virginia is the 4th most populated state for welfare recipients.

www.usatoday.com

4. West Virginia

• Number of food stamp recipients: 369,249

• Percentage of the state's population on food stamps: 19.96%

• Total cost of just these benefits alone (That is, how much do just the money on those EBT cards cost the state?): Around $45.7 million

• Cost of benefits alone per capita in this state: $24.69 per person

MY WORDS FOLLOW

OOPSIE DAISY You would be wrong about the supposed richness of West Virginia.

#7 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-17 08:59 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Furthermore, I worked with former coal miners way back in the early seventies. The coal industry was beginning to die way back then, don't even try to pretend this is a recent development, it isn't. Coal has been dying, as an industry, for 50 years. It's sort of funny that conservatives are just now noticing.

#8 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-17 09:01 AM | Reply

#6 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-17 08:53

You must realize when Boaz see's a post he only see's what he wants that post to say.

there is a few reasons why Venezuela economy is suffering some of it is the U.S. fault but the big one is as you said Danni, was the whole economy was based upon oil the problem is that Venezuela's oil is not sweet crude oil and is only profitable if oil prices stay over $60 a barrel

#9 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2017-03-17 09:20 AM | Reply

Laura, the stat isn't really a true picture since Kansas has less people in snap but a greater benefit per person.

In 2014. W. Virginia supposedly received 476 million a month in SNAP for approximately 362,500 people, and the benefit per month per person was 109.

So that comes to 39.5 million a month so where did the 427 other million go? The numbers are either all wrong or there is huge theft by the government agencies.

#10 | Posted by Crassus at 2017-03-17 09:27 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

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Now the liar who promised to bring their jobs back, but won't be able to because coal is over

Coal isn't over. It's only "over" in Democrat/liberal administrations. There's no reason coal plants shouldn't be working at full capacity.

I sympathize with them and I am willing to pay my taxes to help them

Your tax dollars aren't supposed to be going to "help" them. They should be able to "help" themselves. And they could if you democrats would get the legislative and environmental foot off their necks....

#11 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 09:40 AM | Reply

And Crassus comes with some convoluted stupid argument but ignores the reality of the discussion. Fossil fuel based economies are tanking, socialism has very little to do with Venezuela's problems and is probably making the suffering less not more. But that is inconvenient to conservatives who have to believe that socialism is the root of all evil and that, if only, capitalists were still running Venezuela everything would be ----- dory. Sorry, just ain't true, what is really true is that the upper classes are now suffering right along with the poorer classes who were suffering when oil was expensive and there was great profit in it which just wasn't shared with the lower classes.

#12 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-17 09:40 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Your tax dollars aren't supposed to be going to "help" them. They should be able to "help" themselves. And they could if you democrats would get the legislative and environmental foot off their necks...."

Oh shut up. WE live in the richest country in the world, we can afford to feed our people and to give them healthcare whether that offends you idiotic political beliefs or not. I won't suffer because of it and neither will you. WWJD? Nuf said.

#13 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-17 09:42 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Wait, I just realized Boaz is still pretending that it is regulation that is killing coal. Hilarious! You can pollute every stream in W. Virginia but coal ain't coming back. Natural gas killed coal not regulations fool.

#14 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-17 09:43 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Danni, What are you talking about, those are real numbers and question how they are used but as usual numbers don't mean anything.

#15 | Posted by Crassus at 2017-03-17 09:48 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Crassus, you seem to have a problem with distribution of benefits. I totally agree that we need better oversight but the discussion was based on the idea that Venezuela's problems are due to socialism instead of the falling price of oil. Poor attempt to divert the thread.

#16 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-17 09:56 AM | Reply

WE live in the richest country in the world, we can afford to feed our people and to give them healthcare

Socialism didn't make us the richest country in the world...

Socialism always comes around after the money has been made, but never to make the money. Don't forget that.

#17 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 09:58 AM | Reply

Fossil fuel based economies are tanking, socialism has very little to do with Venezuela's problems and is probably making the suffering less not more.

#12 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2017-03-17 09:40 AM | FLAG:

When Chavez fully nationalized the oil industry in 1999, that marked the moment they opened zero new oil fields. No more investment happened, corruption skyrocketed, and cash shortages began. Oil prices went up considerably because of it, particularly the 2002 national strike. Instead of investment, expansion, upgrades to remain competitive in a global market, the profits were allocated directly to government. The more money they took from it for social programs, the more the output faltered. Less output, lower prices, no reinvestment, and they managed to shoot themselves in the face through inept central planning.

#18 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 10:02 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Socialism didn't make us the richest country in the world..."

Nope-- slaves and immigrants did.

#19 | Posted by pumpkinhead at 2017-03-17 10:02 AM | Reply

Socialism didn't make us the richest country in the world...

Socialism always comes around after the money has been made, but never to make the money. Don't forget that.

Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 09:58 AM | Reply

It damned sure did build this country. God you're ignorant

www.thenation.com

#20 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-17 10:03 AM | Reply

Venezuela's problem isn't dabbling in some forms of socialism, it's central planning based on 1 resource they couldn't effectively manage in a volatile world market. They failed even when oil prices were very high, and low prices just drives a nail in their coffin.

#21 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 10:04 AM | Reply

Boaz, you're just full of poppy ----! We have always had what you would call socialism in our country, the problem now is too much of the money is being stolen by the entities that run the programs.

#22 | Posted by Crassus at 2017-03-17 10:04 AM | Reply

#20,

Socialism builds nothing. Socialism doesn't make money, it only takes it.

That you cannot see this shows who the ignorant one is..

#23 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 10:07 AM | Reply

Socialism builds nothing. Socialism doesn't make money, it only takes it.

That you cannot see this shows who the ignorant one is..

#23 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 10:07 AM | Reply | Flag

I guess the highways were always there the public schools etc etc etc.

#24 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-17 10:09 AM | Reply

"Since its inception, Venezuela had been dominated by a rich white élite descended from Europeans who ruled over a poor indigenous, mestizo, and Afro-Venezuelan majority. This U.S.-backed élite monopolized wealth and power and kept more than 50% of Venezuelans mired in poverty even though their country had become the world's fifth biggest oil producer. With Washington's support, the Venezuelan upper class proved to be one of the most corrupt in the world, looting the country's oil wealth for 40 years. When the people protested, they were killed, as in the Caracazo massacre in 1989 when security forces slaughtered 3,000 people. Because of this brutal repression and imposed poverty, a popular movement arose and spread, eventually electing Hugo Chavez the country's President in 1998. Chavez then launched the Bolivarian Revolution, which turned out to be the forerunner of the broader Latin American Revolution.

A former army colonel, Chavez came from a poor family and was part indigenous and part Afro-Venezuelan. He was elected President four times, and by the largest majority in 40 years. Including regional contests, the Chavez government won a total of 16 elections. Determined to end what he called the reign of "savage capitalism," Chavez redistributed Venezuela's wealth by massively expanding free health care and education, and through land reform and public subsidies. These social reforms angered the United States, which tried three times to get rid of him – once through a failed military coup, then through fomenting an oil strike and other economic attacks, and then by a bungled assassination attempt.

Before Chavez, more than half the people in Venezuela lived in poverty, a figure that he had succeeded in reducing by half before his death. He instituted free universal health care and free education, raising the country's literacy rate to an astonishing 100%. He implemented land reforms and created government supermarkets which cut the cost of food by 40%. Before these major social improvements, 70% of Venezuelans had no access to basic medical care, and 40% of them were illiterate. Chavez also increased the minimum wage by more than 600%, reduced unemployment from 20% to 6%, and moved Venezuela up four positions in the United Nations Human Development Index."

www.globalresearch.ca

Venezuela's basic problem today is the falling price of oil. Conservatives don't want to believe this because their goal is to always pretend that capitalism doesn't also create poor people.....like in West Virginia. They prefer to believe regulations killed coal because they can't deal with the reality that coal died because natural gas killed. They don't base their beiefs on reality, they base them on ideology and facts be damned they're going to believe what they believe and it is a sin to believe in facts instead.

#25 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-17 10:25 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Chavez's accomplishment was using tax money on socialism. Actually working towards a robust economy capable of generating that tax money, overseeing reinvestment into a nationalized oil industry, he was not competent at that, at all.

#26 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 10:44 AM | Reply

Even when oil prices were insanely high, Venezuela economically spiraled downwards, to the extent their spiral pushed prices even higher.

#27 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 10:45 AM | Reply

"Even when oil prices were insanely high, Venezuela economically spiraled downwards, to the extent their spiral pushed prices even higher."

They built hospitals and schools all over their nation. You call that spiraling downwards because the wealth wasn't still flowing to the aristocracy. I've had this discussion too many times with real Venezuelans who are still here in the U.S. living on the wealth they stole from that country back when they could.

#28 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-17 10:51 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Guess what I didn't see: people standing in line for loaves of bread. I'm guessing they're doing just fine.

#4 | POSTED BY MUSTANG

Or they're not doing just fine but the government here is so afraid of the caricatured socialist boogeyman we don't actually help people being left behind by our serve the rich economy.

#29 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-17 11:19 AM | Reply

Guess what I didn't see: people standing in line for loaves of bread. I'm guessing they're doing just fine.

#4 | POSTED BY MUSTANG AT 2017-03-17 08:44 AM | FLAG:

You don't see a lot of things with your eyes closed.

www.theet.com

#30 | Posted by 726 at 2017-03-17 11:21 AM | Reply

Doing well indeed....eh Stang?

"CLARKSBURG -- Over 400 people stood in frigid weather Thursday morning as they waited their turn to receive food from the Mountaineer Food Bank's mobile food drive at Clarksburg Baptist Church.

The food drive returned for a third time this year and was successful again, said Jim Hileman, who organized the event for Clarksburg Baptist.

Food drives also took place in Clarksburg in February and September

"This time we were able to serve 400 families, which is around 1,000 people with how many average in a household," Hileman said.

Several people had to be turned away after resources ran out, he said."

#31 | Posted by 726 at 2017-03-17 11:23 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

There's no reason coal plants shouldn't be working at full capacity.

You mean other than the economic pressures of cheaper natural gas plants?

Your tax dollars aren't supposed to be going to "help" them. They should be able to "help" themselves.

Spoken like a true "Christian". Jesus would be proud.

And they could if you democrats would get the legislative and environmental foot off their necks...

It's an antiquated energy source that isn't necessary in a modern economy. Why should we float coal industries and all the accompanied environmental impacts just so they can keep unnecessary jobs?

#32 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-17 11:23 AM | Reply

They built hospitals and schools all over that are no longer funded. The hospitals don't have the basics, drugs, and doctors are temporarily imported from Cuba only by selling oil to them at 40% under market value. The government grocery stores are empty. Price controls halted imports of basic like milk and soap. When they very recently removed those controls, currency values were already past a tipping point in prices so the poor can't afford the food anyways. Centrally planning an economy then grossly mismanaging the asset that is 50% of the economy, while that asset is selling for record high prices, and building social programs entirely dependent on that asset is a failure no matter how you dress it up. That is a spiral downward. Maybe they'll get it together eventually, but in the interim, they are headed towards civil war and anarchy.

#33 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 11:26 AM | Reply

#24 | Posted by LauraMohr

That's not socialism you ignorant moron.

#34 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 11:35 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

...is to deny reality.
#6 | Posted by danni

Denial is very stylish right now. Reality is icky. Sigh.

#35 | Posted by SomebodyElse at 2017-03-17 11:36 AM | Reply

It's an antiquated energy source that isn't necessary in a modern economy.

I disagee. It's a source of energy that can directly compete with other sources and can be part of a comprehensive energy strategy. For all you liberals trying to get rid of coal, it only makes it look better next to out of control in cost renewables.

#36 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 11:37 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"For all you liberals trying to get rid of coal..." - #36 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 11:37 AM

It is the coal mine owners who are getting rid of coal.

They don't need the help of liberals for that.

#37 | Posted by Hans at 2017-03-17 11:39 AM | Reply

"That's not socialism ..." - #34 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 11:35 AM

Of course those are examples of socialism, you ignorant moron.

#38 | Posted by Hans at 2017-03-17 11:40 AM | Reply

#24 | Posted by LauraMohr

That's not socialism you ignorant moron.

#34 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 11:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

You bet it is socialism.

#39 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-17 11:49 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Some Coal jobs are making a comeback since Trump won. His win coincided with China lowering their own coking coal production, which have combined to push coking coal prices up 250%. Coking coal is about 35% of West Virginia production. Coal to burn for conversion to energy, I wouldn't expect that to come back even with a dismantled EPA.

#40 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 11:59 AM | Reply

Coking coal is used in steel & iron production.

#41 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 11:59 AM | Reply

Hans and Laura,

No it's not. Infrastructure is a function of government.

Distributing income to the masses (entitlements), i.e. welfare, SNAP is socialism.

#42 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 12:13 PM | Reply

People will do what they have to to survive. If we refuse to create a legal means for people to get food and housing they will get it in other ways.

Over time more people will need assistance simply because automation means we don't need to have everyone working. In the near future self driving vehicles will put 10% of our workforce out of work. Even if a self driving truck costs twice as much as a conventional truck it is a no brainer for any company. Instead of buying 3 trucks and hiring 3 drivers they can buy 1 self driving truck that never sleeps, never gets distracted, never stops for lunch or to use the bathroom and never calls in sick.

We have to decouple personal livelihood from labor or we will have an ever growing lower class.

Universal Basic income and universal healthcare are an absolute must in the near future

#43 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2017-03-17 12:16 PM | Reply

#38/#39 Actually, no, it's not socialism. There is a vast gulf between socialism and social democracy.

Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.

Social democracy should not be confused with democratic socialism:

Since the rise in popularity of the New Right and neoliberalism, a number of prominent social democratic parties have abandoned the goal of the gradual evolution of capitalism to socialism and instead support welfare state capitalism. Social democracy as such has arisen as a distinct ideology from democratic socialism.

So, while the social democracy movement did, in fact, grow out of the idea of creating a socialist economy democratically and within the political system of capitalism, today the idea of social democracy falls squarely into both the political and economic spheres of capitalism.

www.dailykos.com

#44 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-03-17 12:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The day the Government of any country anywhere figures out how to run a small Mom & Pop business BETTER than Mom & Pop will be the day pigs fly. Or is this Venezuela's version of "too small to fail"?

#45 | Posted by moder8 at 2017-03-17 12:18 PM | Reply

Oh boy! Here we go again.

Endless talk of socialism, (in this case Venezuela) by the very same "experts" who insist we finance socialism, (Israel, to the tune of billions annually)

You people are schizophrenic morons

#46 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2017-03-17 12:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources."

By which definition, Venezuela isn't socialist either. Glad we all had this little chat.

#47 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 12:43 PM | Reply

Distributing income to the masses (entitlements), i.e. welfare, SNAP is socialism.

#42 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 12:13 PM | FLAG:

Like military pensions? VA benefits? The GI Bill? Things like that?

#48 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 12:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Socialism builds nothing.
#23 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 10:07 AM | FLAG:

Really-existing socialism turned agrarian backwaters into industrial powerhouses in record time, beat fascism, and beat capitalist countries into space, what, three times? Open a book once in a while.

#49 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 12:47 PM | Reply

"Socialism builds nothing"

Tell that to the Israelis

#50 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2017-03-17 12:52 PM | Reply

Socialism builds nothing.
#23 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 10:07 AM | FLAG: Has no clue what socialism actually is.

#51 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-03-17 12:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Really-existing socialism turned agrarian backwaters into industrial powerhouses in record time, beat fascism, and beat capitalist countries into space, what, three times? Open a book once in a while.

#49 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2017-03-17 12:47 PM | REPLY

Yet they couldn't make a car people actually wanted, and descended into an economy so stratified the political elite had their own limo lanes.

#52 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 12:56 PM | Reply

"Socialism builds nothing"

Tell that to the Israelis

No need to go to Israel to find the benefits of socialism.

It's right here in America.

Socialism built our roads and railways. Funds our police firemen and military.

Helps fund advancements in science medicine and technology.

Funds the arts and humanities.

Educates our children. Cares for our elderly.

And more.

Unfortunately. Republicans don't value any of the above. Except the military.

#53 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-03-17 12:58 PM | Reply

Yet they couldn't make a car people actually wanted, and descended into an economy so stratified the political elite had their own limo lanes.

#52 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG AT 2017-03-17 12:56 PM | FLAG:

Right. Saving the world from Hitler and taking the first faltering steps to the stars PALE in importance compared to the superiority of (certain) capitalist consumer goods...

No one is claiming that really existing socialism didn't have problems but the claim that it contributed nothing is idiotic.

#54 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:01 PM | Reply

idiotic

Text book definition for Boaz.

#55 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-03-17 01:03 PM | Reply

Before "saving the world from Hitler", they were on Hitler's team, annexing half of Poland and murdering the dissidents. Communism certainly contributed a massive body count to the world, but they weren't beating Germany without the US, it took both countries working together, along with several other of the largest economies on the planet. The race to space was built on the backs of German prisoners, just like ours was. The contributions are heavily debatable at best. Every communist country with a brain has transitioned to a market economy.

#56 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 01:09 PM | Reply

Hey DirkaDirkaStan, who owns all this stuff?

Venezuelan media
Venezuelan oil and gas companies
Venezuelan fertilizer and agricultural product manufacturing
Venezuelan aluminum and steel manufacturing
Venezuelan food distribution (groceries)
Venezuelan banks
Large parts of agricultural land

en.wikipedia.org

Hint: It's the government of Venezuela

In 2006, the Chávez government began nationalizing several industries as part of its policy of wealth redistribution and reducing the influence of multinational corporations. As a result of these nationalizations, production of goods in Venezuela had dropped.[75][76]

In 2008, cement production was largely nationalized. In 2013, it was reported that production of cement dropped by 60%, furnaces stopped and cement had to be imported from Colombia. Workers of the Socialist Cement Corporation protested against their employers due to not being paid and not being able to receive help at clinics due to company debt.[82]

Chavez nationalized Venezuela's largest telephone companies and electric utilities.

The nation's largest private electricity producer, 82-percent owned by US-based AES Corp, was obtained by paying $740 million to AES for its share. In 2011, it had so many problems that rations on electricity were put in place to help ease blackouts

In 2008 the Venezuelan government nationalized the leading steel company, Argentine-controlled Sidor, following months of strikes and labour-management disputes. Since the nationalization of Sidor, the production of the company has dropped ever year.

A food plant owned by US giant Cargill was nationalised in early 2009.

On 28 February 2009 Chavez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country.

In mid-2009 the Venezuelan government took temporary control of Fama de America and Cafe Madrid coffee plants, accusing the manufacturers, which together have 70% of the Venezuelan market, of hoarding and of smuggling coffee to Colombia.

Banco de Venezuela was nationalized in 2009; Banco Bicentenario was created in late 2009 from nationalized banks taken over in the course of the Venezuelan banking crisis of 2009-2010.

en.wikipedia.org

#57 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2017-03-17 01:10 PM | Reply

"Hey DirkaDirkaStan, who owns all this stuff?"

Still doesn't fit your definition, Slick. There are plenty of private businesses in Venezuela. For that matter, the US has public interests in most of those areas as well (media, utilities, and banks just being the most obvious). So what is the threshold before a country becomes "socialist?" Is it, and I'm just guessing here, whichever one fits your argument best?

#58 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:15 PM | Reply

#56

We could talk all day about capitalist body counts and complicity with Hitler too. And you can claim all you want that "it was a team effort" but history shows quite clearly who did most of the actual fighting in that war. As for the space program, you cannot ignore the funds and resources poured into it by the USSR and the impact those had on the development of those technologies. A few scientists do not a technological revolution make.

#59 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:21 PM | Reply


Like military pensions? VA benefits? The GI Bill? Things like that?

#48 | Posted by DirkStruan

No. Those are compensation.

I don't know how many times I have to tell this to you thick headed liberals. You keep wanting to lump in honest work rewards with socialism.

The compensation the nation gives to people whom it hires for it's military and service to the nation that the nation pays to do a job is not socialism..

But you keep on redefining terms. You liberals are good at that.

#60 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:23 PM | Reply

--Really-existing socialism turned agrarian backwaters into industrial powerhouses in record time, beat fascism, and beat capitalist countries into space, what, three times? Open a book once in a while.

Big fan of Stalinism, aren't you? Josef Stalin accomplished that by creating one of the worst tyrannies in modern history; the model for Orwell's "1984" and "Animal Farm."

#61 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-03-17 01:24 PM | Reply

"No. Those are compensation."

Weird sort of "compensation" that gets negotiated after the service is rendered (like the GI bill and the pension system after the Civil War).

#62 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:28 PM | Reply

Big fan of Stalinism, aren't you? Josef Stalin accomplished that by creating one of the worst tyrannies in modern history; the model for Orwell's "1984" and "Animal Farm."

#61 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2017-03-17 01:24 PM | FLAG:

My point stands. And, of course, a system under pressure will tend to become tyrannical. It happens to capitalism too.

#63 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:30 PM | Reply

The compensation the nation gives to people whom it hires for it's military and service to the nation that the nation pays to do a job is not socialism..

But you keep on redefining terms. You liberals are good at that.

#60 | Posted by boaz

So the government hiring someone to shoot a gun is NOT socialism, but the government hiring them to build a bridge is?

#64 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-03-17 01:30 PM | Reply

Weird sort of "compensation" that gets negotiated after the service is rendered (like the GI bill and the pension system after the Civil War).

I was told what my compensation would be when I signed up. And also, I paid for the GI Bill. Funny how you say SS isn't an entitlement program because people paid into it, but the GI bill, which people paid into is an entitlement.

#65 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:31 PM | Reply

So the government hiring someone to shoot a gun is NOT socialism, but the government hiring them to build a bridge is?

No, it isn't. I said infrastructure isn't socialism. Making someone build the bridge and paying them a non-capitalistic wage is socialism, ie everyone gets paid the same thing no matter what the work is..

#66 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:32 PM | Reply

Socialism is where you go to work to build the bridge and at the end of the day, go downstairs to collect your rice to eat for dinner..

Going to work on a bridge, then getting a paycheck to decide whether you want rice or beans to buy with that paycheck isn't socialism.

#67 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:34 PM | Reply

Boaz is in over his head... and he ain't all that tall.

#68 | Posted by Corky at 2017-03-17 01:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I was told what my compensation would be when I signed up.
#65 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 01:31 PM | FLAG:

And for lots of others, they got it after the fact. That is how those programs were initially enacted. Doesn't sound like compensation to me. Sounds like a benefit.

#69 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:37 PM | Reply

So the government hiring someone to shoot a gun is NOT socialism, but the government hiring them to build a bridge is?

#64 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2017-03-17 01:30 PM | FLAG:

With hiring sometimes taking the form of a draft too...

#70 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:38 PM | Reply

Boaz is in over his head... and he ain't all that tall.

Just because I don't choose to define socialism by a liberals terms doesn't mean I don't understand what it is.

Liberals love to redefine terms as to try to stop debate on an issue (Ie climate change, global warming, etc)....

Why would I debate with rules you as a liberal create for me to fail?

#71 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:38 PM | Reply


Doesn't sound like compensation to me. Sounds like a benefit.

#69 | Posted by DirkStruan

I don't care what it sounds like to you. I know what it actually is..

#72 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:39 PM | Reply

No, it isn't. I said infrastructure isn't socialism.

#66 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 01:32 PM | FLAG: No True Scotsman

#73 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:40 PM | Reply

And the reason I say that, #72, Dirk,

If I fail to do my job, the contract would be null and void, hence I get put out of the military and lose my compensation.

#74 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:40 PM | Reply

I don't care what it sounds like to you. I know what it actually is..

#72 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 01:39 PM | FLAG:

What it actually is is objectively different from compensation in the sense you seem to mean. But by all means, ignore that inconvenient truth.

#75 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:41 PM | Reply

And the reason I say that, #72, Dirk,
If I fail to do my job, the contract would be null and void, hence I get put out of the military and lose my compensation.

#74 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 01:40 PM | FLAG:

What contract gets negotiated after services are rendered? Also, lots of benefits have preconditions (welfare, food aid). I don't see that yours is any different.

#76 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:42 PM | Reply

Just because I don't choose to define socialism by a liberals terms doesn't mean I don't understand what it is.
Liberals love to redefine terms as to try to stop debate on an issue (Ie climate change, global warming, etc)....
Why would I debate with rules you as a liberal create for me to fail?

#71 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 01:38 PM | FLAG:

But you are the one who started redefining. Scroll up to your various examples of special pleading above ("that doesn't count!").

#77 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:44 PM | Reply

As for the space program, you cannot ignore the funds and resources poured into it by the USSR and the impact those had on the development of those technologies. A few scientists do not a technological revolution make.

#59 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2017-03-17 01:21 PM | REPLY

I'm quite familiar with who did the fighting, where they did it, and what they did it with. They were lucky Hitler can't read a map.

The entire soviet space program was reverse engineered off of German work. What's impressive is how the Soviets managed the flights using technically inferior equipment to the US. Send enough people to the Gulag and execute the rest, and you can motivate your staff with enough fear to get things done. Probably better to motivate people with money though.

#78 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 01:46 PM | Reply

Also, lots of benefits have preconditions (welfare, food aid). I don't see that yours is any different.

That's because you don't want to. You want to classify them as the same, but they aren't. It's my premise that for welfare, food aid, etc, you don't do work to earn it.

#79 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:47 PM | Reply

Wildly off topic, but to get back on it, the Venezuelan experiment in nationalizing their economy and piggy backing social programs onto it is a failure. The only growing economic sector is the black market, where government can't direct anything.

#80 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 01:47 PM | Reply

But you are the one who started redefining.

No, I didn't. It was those who love socialism who started redefining when socialism became a dirty word.

#81 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:48 PM | Reply

#78

Both programs started, to an extent with German science... and progressed from there. The USSR progressed faster than capitalist societies, initially, beating those societies into space multiple times. You cannot claim that this was not a major human achievement. Hence you cannot claim that aocoal Am produces nothing. Even a brief look at Soviet and Chinese socialism demonstrates that such a claim is laughable.

#82 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:51 PM | Reply

That's because you don't want to. You want to classify them as the same, but they aren't. It's my premise that for welfare, food aid, etc, you don't do work to earn it.

#79 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 01:47 PM | FLAG:

That premise is false, so your argument is void.

#83 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:52 PM | Reply

No, I didn't.

#81 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 01:48 PM | FLAG:

Yeah, you did. Scroll up.

#84 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:53 PM | Reply

Yeah, you did. Scroll up.

Whatever. I know I haven't. No agreement here.

#85 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:56 PM | Reply

Is the US military one big wealth redistribution program?

#86 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 01:57 PM | Reply

Is the US military one big wealth redistribution program?

No.

#87 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:58 PM | Reply

Whatever. I know I haven't. No agreement here.
#85 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 01:56 PM | FLAG:

Post 34, post 42, post 60.

#88 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:00 PM | Reply

I consider wealth redistribution like this.

Person A earns $500. They spend it on what they wish.

Person A earns $500. Government takes $250 and gives it to person B. Now A&B have equal money, but B did nothing to earn it other than the govt took it from A to give to B. B spends the money. That's socialism.

#89 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:01 PM | Reply

No.

#87 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 01:58 PM | FLAG:

Seems to be. But you don't mind. You only oppose the programs you don't use.

#90 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:01 PM | Reply

#88,

None of that is me redefining anything. That's what it is.

#91 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:02 PM | Reply

#90,

See post 89...

#92 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:02 PM | Reply

Didn't your salary come from the taxpayer?

#93 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:02 PM | Reply

Didn't your salary come from the taxpayer?

Didn't I earn it by doing a job?

#94 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:03 PM | Reply

None of that is me redefining anything.

#91 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 02:02 PM | FLAG:

Yeah, it is. You magically exclude military and infrastructure spending from socialism (because you like those things) but oppose other types of spending.

#95 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:04 PM | Reply

Didn't I earn it by doing a job?

#94 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 02:03 PM | FLAG:

What job? The one the government made up so you'd have something to do so they could pay you in tax dollars? That job?

#96 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:05 PM | Reply

What job? The one the government made up so you'd have something to do so they could pay you in tax dollars? That job?

Made up?

LOL, no the one that needed doing because of my skillset. Without it, the country couldn't have defended your right to sit here and argue with me! LOL...

#97 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:07 PM | Reply

And don't get me wrong,

There are some "jobs" out there in the govt space shuffling paper that could be gotten rid of...

#98 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:08 PM | Reply

Both programs started, to an extent with German science... and progressed from there. The USSR progressed faster than capitalist societies, initially, beating those societies into space multiple times. You cannot claim that this was not a major human achievement. Hence you cannot claim that aocoal Am produces nothing. Even a brief look at Soviet and Chinese socialism demonstrates that such a claim is laughable.

#82 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2017-03-17 01:51 PM | FLAG:

It was. In the short term, they did great. Military spending results in amazing technological advances from nuclear power to the space race to the Internet. In the long term, they communist economies tanked and switched to market economies.

#99 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 02:09 PM | Reply

Socialism is where you go to work to build the bridge and at the end of the day, go downstairs to collect your rice to eat for dinner..

Going to work on a bridge, then getting a paycheck to decide whether you want rice or beans to buy with that paycheck isn't socialism.

#67 | Posted by boaz

No being paid in food isnt socialism, it's slavery.

Canadians and swedes are in total control of what they eat for dinner.

#100 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-03-17 02:16 PM | Reply

I consider wealth redistribution like this.

Person A earns $500. They spend it on what they wish.

Person A earns $500. Government takes $250 and gives it to person B. Now A&B have equal money, but B did nothing to earn it other than the govt took it from A to give to B. B spends the money. That's socialism.

#89 | Posted by boaz

That's not socialism. With every post about socialism, you keep proving that you simply eat up right wing lies about socialism for breakfast every day.

Currently american wealth distrubution works like this:

Person A was born into a wealthy family, gets into an ivy league school, works at a wall street firm pushing numbers around and figuring out new financial scams, and makes 10 million dollars. He then spends some of that 10 million dollars buying off the government to lower his own tax liability, forcing the state to cut services to person B who WASNT born into wealth and has to actually do real physical labor for a living.

The rich get richer and the poor get screwed. Somehow this isn't called class warfare. It's only called class warfare when person B notices he's getting screwed and says he wants to fight back.

#101 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-03-17 02:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

LOL, no the one that needed doing because of my skillset. Without it, the country couldn't have defended your right to sit here and argue with me! LOL...

#97 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 02:07 PM | FLAG:

What did you do that "needed doing?" Be specific. Who does the US need to be defended from? Martians?

#102 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:22 PM | Reply

They're also market economies with social programs piggy backed onto them. Canada's energy sector has Conoco, Shell, Suncor, etc, etc.

#103 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 02:23 PM | Reply

#103 is in response to #100.

#104 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 02:23 PM | Reply

Who does the US need to be defended from? Martians?

#102 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2017-03-17 02:22 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Don't you follow this site? "Terrorists" and Putin.

#105 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 02:24 PM | Reply

What did you do that "needed doing?" Be specific. Who does the US need to be defended from?

I'm not going to get into a theory discussion about what policy our nation chooses to do.

Specifically, when I first joined, I was a computer programmer and systems analyst. Both were in demand jobs the military had and still has a hard time filling.
As I rose in rank, I became a signals officer and a commander, all things the military needed to do it's job.

#106 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:31 PM | Reply

LOL, no the one that needed doing because of my skillset. Without it, the country couldn't have defended your right to sit here and argue with me! LOL...

#97 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

LMFAO Bloated importance. Sad.

#107 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-17 02:33 PM | Reply

"I'm not going to get into a theory discussion about what policy our nation chooses to do."

You are already in one.

"Specifically, when I first joined, I was a computer programmer and systems analyst. Both were in demand jobs the military had and still has a hard time filling.
As I rose in rank, I became a signals officer and a commander, all things the military needed to do it's job."

Clearly, you did your part to stave off the Martian menace.

#108 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:35 PM | Reply

Clearly, you did your part to stave off the Martian menace.

Whatever. The military needed a job to be done and I was hired to do it.

You are already in one.

Two different discussions. Stop trying to deflect between them..

#109 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:36 PM | Reply

LMFAO Bloated importance. Sad.

Without the military defending your right to be who you are, you probably wouldn't be that person, Laura.

That's just real talk..

Let the Muslims take over or defeat our military and they implement their type of ideology.

I think you will find life under your chosen identity to be difficult.

#110 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:38 PM | Reply

"Whatever. The military needed a job to be done"

Says who?

"and I was hired to do it."

And look at all those tax funded benefits you get.

"Two different discussions."

Related ones.

#111 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:39 PM | Reply

"Let the Muslims take over or defeat our military and they implement their type of ideology."

You are a petty minded bigot and your understanding of Islam is laughably minimal.

And you really expect us to believe some fictional Muslim army is at your gates? Grow up.

#112 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:42 PM | Reply

And look at all those tax funded benefits you get.

Jealousy is a part of the class wars.

You are a petty minded bigot and your understanding of Islam is laughably minimal.

Really? Because I can clearly see the threat coming and I don't welcome it with open arms?

I don't think I'm the bigot in this discussion...

#113 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:44 PM | Reply

They're also market economies with social programs piggy backed onto them. Canada's energy sector has Conoco, Shell, Suncor, etc, etc.

#103 | Posted by sitzkrieg

But those are what lefties are referring to when we say socialism can work. Then conservatives point to venezuala and russia to say it doesnt, ignoring that they are entirely different economic systems.

#114 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-03-17 02:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Whatever. The military needed a job to be done and I was hired to do it.

#109 | Posted by boaz

At least youre now admitting that it's just a government job instead of propagating the whole heroic patriot myth.

#115 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-03-17 02:45 PM | Reply

At least youre now admitting that it's just a government job instead of propagating the whole heroic patriot myth.

Never said I was a hero. But I am a patriot.

#117 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:46 PM | Reply

Without the military defending your right to be who you are, you probably wouldn't be that person, Laura.

That's just real talk..

Let the Muslims take over or defeat our military and they implement their type of ideology.

I think you will find life under your chosen identity to be difficult.

#110 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Get over your arrogant self importance. You know the difference bertween you and the greatest generation that fought in WW2 is they were humble of their service IT'S CALLED SERVICE FOR A REASON and you puffing up your chest acting like he was some hot shot. When you went to Iraq what was you defending me from??? Spitwads??? BTW The number one country for transgender gender confirming surgeries is Iran. IRAN for God sake.

#118 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-17 02:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Jealousy is a part of the class wars."

Jealousy? You are a hypocrite. Living off the government and coming out against every benefit but your own.

"Really? Because I can clearly see the threat coming and I don't welcome it with open arms?"

No, because you group a billion odd Muslims into the category of enemy with no thought whatsoever and because you imagine threats where none exist.

"I don't think I'm the bigot in this discussion..."

Really? What massive religious group did I just defame?

#119 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#116 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 02:46 PM | FLAG:

So, no army then? No threat of conquest? One would almost think you are making things up...

#120 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:52 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Never said I was a hero. But I am a patriot.

#117 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 02:46 PM | FLAG:

You are a proud productive of wealth redistribution.
Someone else's tax dollars at work. Own it, fool.

#121 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 02:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

because you imagine threats where none exist.

LOL, the threat doesn't exist.LOL..

I wonder if the people in that night club in florida think the threat doesn't exist.

You keep living in that fantasy world...

#122 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:53 PM | Reply

"Because I can clearly see the threat coming..." - #113 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:44 PM

That is just so much, as Laura would say, bullshizzle:

The Crazification Factor

You can't cite your enemy's delusional hopes as a basis for a rational strategy. Goals don't exist in a vacuum, they're linked to capability. David Koresh was utterly committed to being Jesus Christ. See how far that got him.

source

"But I am a patriot."

Didn't realize that pantsp*ss*ng was related to patriotism.

#124 | Posted by Hans at 2017-03-17 02:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

But those are what lefties are referring to when we say socialism can work. Then conservatives point to venezuala and russia to say it doesnt, ignoring that they are entirely different economic systems.

#114 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2017-03-17 02:44 PM | REPLY

Uhm, look back at this thread. There are "lefties" pointing to the success of Chavez, and the success of ww2 era Russia.

#125 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-17 02:57 PM | Reply

"I wonder if the people in that night club in florida think the threat doesn't exist." - #122 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:53 PM

They can't think of much.

They're dead.

Because of ----------- like you.

#126 | Posted by Hans at 2017-03-17 02:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

LOL, the threat doesn't exist.LOL..
I wonder if the people in that night club in florida think the threat doesn't exist.
You keep living in that fantasy world...

#122 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 02:53 PM | FLAG:

The man who thinks a few odd incidents justify his irrational hatred of a billion people accuses me of living in a fantasy world? Also, your claim was that you were keeping the Muslims from taking over the US. Looks like you've failed to demonstrate that. What a shock, said no one.

#128 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 03:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Ah, the insult.

#123 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 02:54 PM | FLAG:

No, the truth. You get your tax funded benefits because Uncle Sam made us busywork for you. Had you and ten thousand like you been erased from existence there is not a blade of grass in your homeland that would have been less safe by the loss. So, get off your high hobby horse about "socialism" before you fall off and hurt yourself.

#129 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 03:03 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"No. It's because of radical Muslims..." - #127 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 03:00 PM

As recently as 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries, and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms."

Not much Islam in those figures.

A lot of Americans and a hell of a lot of guns.

Yep. It is because of ----------- like you.

#130 | Posted by Hans at 2017-03-17 03:03 PM | Reply

his irrational hatred of a billion people

I never said I hated muslims. You said that. And that's why democrats lost the election. It's generalizing like that.

#131 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 03:03 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"The security guard was because of ----------- like me and contained the muslim mass killer to the club. With a gun..."

You can't tell the difference between paid security and private gun owners?

#132 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 03:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#130,

Good deflection. And not the topic of this thread.

Good Troll, yes, gud boy....

#133 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 03:04 PM | Reply

#132,

Not the topic of this thread. That argument is for another thread....

Stay on topic..

#134 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 03:04 PM | Reply

"I never said I hated muslims." - #131 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 03:03 PM | Reply | Flag: Bullshizzle

#135 | Posted by Hans at 2017-03-17 03:05 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"And not the topic of this thread." - #133 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 03:04 PM

You were the one who brought up massacres by guns ("I wonder if the people in that night club in florida think the threat doesn't exist.").

Not me, ----------.

#136 | Posted by Hans at 2017-03-17 03:07 PM | Reply

--The USSR progressed faster than capitalist societies, initially,

Yeah, via mass killings, by deliberately starving the peasantry to feed the industrial slaves, and creating a Gulag for opponents-real or imagined--of Comrade Stalin's police-state. But hey, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, as Uncle Joe said.

#137 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-03-17 03:08 PM | Reply

"There's a teacher in Austrailia, who's Kindergarden students threatened to cut off her head who might disagree.." - #116 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 02:46 PM

Perhaps you have some anecdotal evidence for that screed, but I have contrary anecdotal evidence.

#138 | Posted by Hans at 2017-03-17 03:10 PM | Reply

Yeah, via mass killings, by deliberately starving the peasantry to feed the industrial slaves, and creating a Gulag for opponents-real or imagined--of Comrade Stalin's police-state. But hey, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, as Uncle Joe said.

#137 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2017-03-17 03:08 PM | FLAG:

Capitalist societies did all that and worse.

#139 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 03:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I disagee. It's a source of energy that can directly compete with other sources and can be part of a comprehensive energy strategy. For all you liberals trying to get rid of coal, it only makes it look better next to out of control in cost renewables.

#36 | Posted by boaz

It doesn't matter if your ignorant ass disagrees.

Coal isn't a competitive energy source for multiple reasons.

Even with the repeal of pro-environment regulations (a nightmare that we're likely to endure in the near future...) natural gas is still cheaper and, IIRC, more abundant owing to increased production in the western and plains states.

#140 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-17 03:17 PM | Reply

No. It's because of radical Muslims for some reason like the ones you liberals love.

The security guard was because of ----------- like me and contained the muslim mass killer to the club. With a gun...

But you would have taken that away, right?

#127 | Posted by boaz

Where has ANYONE suggested disarming peace officers?

There will always be crazy people who want to kill others, whether they're muslim, psycho, or trump lovers.

Having gun rights means these people will be able to succeed much more than if we lived in canada or australia.

#141 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-03-17 03:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

--Capitalist societies did all that and worse.

That's the kind of apologetics I've heard from Stalinists since the 70s. The CPUSA specialized in that tripe. You talk like Bob Avakian.

#142 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-03-17 03:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I don't know how many times I have to tell this to you thick headed liberals. You keep wanting to lump in honest work rewards with socialism.

The compensation the nation gives to people whom it hires for it's military and service to the nation that the nation pays to do a job is not socialism..

But you keep on redefining terms. You liberals are good at that.

So you're all for public pensions being maintained and honored?

#143 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-17 03:25 PM | Reply

The entire soviet space program was reverse engineered off of German work.

So was the US' program.

Both also used the services of German engineers captured at the end of the war.

#144 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-17 03:29 PM | Reply

Having gun rights means these people will be able to succeed much more than if we lived in canada or australia.
#141 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

How about Switzerland? They have about 30% - 60% of the population as gun owners.

Why such high ownership and such low crime?

#145 | Posted by tontonmacoute at 2017-03-17 03:30 PM | Reply

Somehow this isn't called class warfare. It's only called class warfare when person B notices he's getting screwed and says he wants to fight back.

NW

#146 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-17 03:33 PM | Reply

"The compensation the nation gives to people whom it hires for it's military and service to the nation that the nation pays to do a job is not socialism.." - #60 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 01:23 PM

No, that's socialism.

No matter how many times you thick headed conservatives want to redefine it.

#147 | Posted by Hans at 2017-03-17 03:35 PM | Reply

If Trump was smart he'd offer to do something to help the hungry people of Venezuela.

Accepted or rejected it would make us look awesome.

What's Cuba doing to help the other nearest socialist state anyhow?

#148 | Posted by Tor at 2017-03-17 03:44 PM | Reply

It doesn't matter if your ignorant ass disagrees.

That's why we have the electoral college.

So you're all for public pensions being maintained and honored?

Public pensions can be inefficient. Maybe raising the retirement age and number of years of service is needed to make them more solvent.

#149 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 03:45 PM | Reply

#147

Whatever Hans...

#150 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 03:46 PM | Reply

"Public pensions can be inefficient." - #149 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 03:45 PM

Yours is a public pension.

And, in your case, it is definitely inefficient.

#151 | Posted by Hans at 2017-03-17 03:47 PM | Reply

That's the kind of apologetics I've heard from Stalinists since the 70s. The CPUSA specialized in that tripe. You talk like Bob Avakian.

#142 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2017-03-17 03:25 PM | FLAG:

That's not a refutation.

#152 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 04:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

How about Switzerland? They have about 30% - 60% of the population as gun owners.

Why such high ownership and such low crime?

#145 | Posted by tontonmacoute

Partly because switzerland's socialism means no one in that country feels left out or abandoned, without any chance of improving their lives. It means people born poor have a better chance of overcoming their poverty.

America is a winner-take-all country. Where the losers see they have no chance and that creates anger, desperation, mental instablity and crime.

There's a reason the happiest countries in the world are all more socialist than america.

#153 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2017-03-17 04:06 PM | Reply

"That's why we have the electoral college."

Why, to limit democracy and make sure your masters are able to cling to power that much more easily?

#154 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 04:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If Trump was smart he'd offer to do something to help the hungry people of Venezuela.
Accepted or rejected it would make us look awesome.

#148 | POSTED BY TOR AT 2017-03-17 03:44 PM | FLAG:

Your compassion is underwhelming. Also, the new regime doesn't believe in foreign aid.

#155 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 04:10 PM | Reply

There's a reason the happiest countries in the world are all more socialist than america.

And almost none of them can defend themselves and are defended either by NATO or by the United States.

#156 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-17 04:14 PM | Reply

And almost none of them can defend themselves and are defended either by NATO or by the United States.

#156 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 04:14 PM | FLAG:

From the Martians.

#157 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 04:17 PM | Reply

Boaz: If a gun massacre is committed by an Islamist, you treat it like an existential threat and scold people who don't share this view.

If a gun massacre is committed by a random white American, you treat it like the price of freedom.

What gives? The Pulse and San Bernardino wackos were just as much disaffected murderous psycho losers as Dylann Roof and the Batman movie killer. They just found something else to latch their crazy onto.

The San Bernardino shooters knew so little about ISIS they had to look up the leader's name on Google to pledge allegiance to him on the day of the attack:

dailycaller.com

#158 | Posted by rcade at 2017-03-17 07:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

#156 European Socialists have more to fear from Christians than any other religion.
They used to only fear attach by the USSR, now they worry about their puppet, the USA, as well.
There are no other countries that are a military threat to Europeans.

#159 | Posted by bored at 2017-03-17 07:08 PM | Reply

Religious fundamentalist massacres kids in Norway. Dang Muslims.
www.bbc.com

#160 | Posted by bored at 2017-03-17 07:12 PM | Reply

I never said I hated muslims. You said that.
#131 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 03:03 PM | FLAG:

And what else am I supposed to conclude based on these things you keep saying? What are any of us supposed to conclude?

#161 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-17 07:17 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

I never said I hated muslims. You said that.
#131 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 03:03 PM | FLAG:
And what else am I supposed to conclude based on these things you keep saying? What are any of us supposed to conclude?

#161 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

Self-unwareness is a perpetual state of existence for righties.

They think they're models of humanity without realizing others see them as bottom of the barrel scum.

#162 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-17 10:28 PM | Reply

Mar 7, 2015 - Using the weakest legal exchange rate, the minimum wage in Venezuela has tumbled from about $360 a month in 2012 to $31 a month today. If we value that minimum wage at the more realistic black market exchange rate then it's around $20 a month.

It isn't easy being a sworn enemy of US Capitalism, target of assassination, and dependent on your sworn enemy for some supplies. That's what doing the right thing can get you.

#163 | Posted by nutcase at 2017-03-18 11:43 AM | Reply

" That's what doing the right thing can get you."

Perhaps if they had tried to reform their corrupt system without totally destroying capitalism in their country? Chavez could have done things differently, as could have Castro. Reforms were needed but radical destruction of the private sector was stupid and harmful to their nations. Those two nations should be lessons for other nations, reform instead of radical take overs of industry, it worked here in the 1930's, it can be done. We built the richest nation in the world on that model because of the wisdom of FDR, too bad Castro and Chavez didn't look to him for inspiration.

#164 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-18 11:56 AM | Reply

It isn't easy being a sworn enemy of US Capitalism, target of assassination, and dependent on your sworn enemy for some supplies. That's what doing the right thing can get you.
#163 | Posted by nutcase

That's an interesting spin. I see it as a collapse of socialism.

#165 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 11:59 AM | Reply

"That's an interesting spin. I see it as a collapse of socialism."

We are dealing with this issue right not in the U.S. We either want unregulated capitalism or regulated capitalism. We know, from history, that well regulated capitalism can be beneficial to all segments of our economy so why is there even a question about it? Answer: greed.

#166 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-18 12:08 PM | Reply

We either want unregulated capitalism or regulated capitalism.

The capital markets could not be more regulated. That's why its collapsing. The costs of operating a business are so exorbitant, only the major corporations can afford the overhead.

Answer: greed.
#166 | Posted by danni

Hate to break the news. Greed is inherent in human nature. Like liberals who think working people like me owe them a living.

#167 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 12:15 PM | Reply

It would take Ray a lifetime to make one wooden pencil. Owing someone else a living has nothing to do with it. We are all dependent on one another. Taxes are the price you pay to operate in a modern world. It is vital, if society is to be self sustaining, that taxes be progressive because one gold coin invested at the birth of Christ would fill the entire solar system with a compound interest rate of 4% (if there was that much gold). Old money always rules. Old money controls the money supply in the USA, the EU and various other parts of the world. The Rothschilds control Rio Tinto and Rio Tinto owns the largest copper mine on earth in Mongolia.

#168 | Posted by bayviking at 2017-03-18 01:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

And almost none of them can defend themselves and are defended either by NATO or by the United States.
#156 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-17 04:14 PM | FLAG:
From the Martians.

#157 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2017-03-17 04:17 PM | FLAG:

From "the Russians" actually. Remember the Trump is going to leave NATO posts where every Democrat promptly threw a massive tantrum? Lets assume that's a serious threat, and not just anti-Trump/pro-hegemony whining and do the math.. If the rest of NATO wanted to maintain the level of security US military spending provides, they're going to have serious issues funding their social programs. The "big 3" (France, Germany, UK) would need a 10x increase in their submarine forces, massively scale up their F-35 purchases, build hundreds of billions worth of carriers & associated air wings, Germany would have to start a nuclear program, etc, etc. Our spending per GDP is about 5%. Theirs is 2%, with much smaller economies, which would ramp up to 10%+ to try and match the military force we deploy on their behalf.

#169 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-18 01:33 PM | Reply

Like liberals who think working people like me owe them a living.

#167 | POSTED BY RAY

I see your views are still a caricature of reality.

#170 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-18 01:54 PM | Reply

It would take Ray a lifetime to make one wooden pencil. Owing someone else a living has nothing to do with it. We are all dependent on one another.
#168 | Posted by bayviking

Free markets evolved spontaneously to serve that very purpose. Once markets became politicized, they became servants of those with political influence through voting, lobbying, bribery and so on.

It's inherent in human nature. If you tax something, you'll get less of it. If you subsidize something, you'll get more. Over the course of time, it become easier to live off of those who produce, than to produce.

There was a classic example in ancient Rome. When the emperor promised free bread to all Roman citizens, he had to pay farmers below fair price. When it didn't pay to farm, farmers moved to Rome where bread was free. Then Rome had no bread.

The progressive tax system penalizes productive behavior and rewards non-productive behavior. I know you don't see it. This system is teetering on the edge of a very serious economic collapse. The money isn't there to continue rewarding non-productive behavior.

Old money always rules.

For as long as Americans are addicted to inflation and debt. What cannot be sustained, won't!

#171 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 01:57 PM | Reply

I see your views are still a caricature of reality.
#170 | Posted by jpw

I'll take the source into consideration.

#172 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 01:57 PM | Reply

Rcade let me help you translate this to Boaz

#158 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2017-03-17 07:00 PM | REPLY | NEWSWORTHY 2

Boaz what RCADE means that if the shooter is White, his "White Privilage" makes it the 2nd Amendements fault..... Any other Race doing the shooting, is just a "Victim of Society"

#173 | Posted by cmbell73 at 2017-03-18 02:16 PM | Reply

I'll take the source into consideration.

#172 | POSTED BY RAY

LOL

#174 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-18 02:20 PM | Reply

This system is teetering on the edge of a very serious economic collapse.

Say something long enough and you'll eventually be able to say "I'm right!". Right?

#175 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-18 02:22 PM | Reply

Say something long enough and you'll eventually be able to say "I'm right!". Right?

Posted by jpw at 2017-03-18 02:22 PM | Reply

Like the 1,400 stock market.

#176 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-18 02:23 PM | Reply

From "the Russians" actually. Remember the Trump is going to leave NATO posts where every Democrat promptly threw a massive tantrum? Lets assume that's a serious threat, and not just anti-Trump/pro-hegemony whining and do the math.. If the rest of NATO wanted to maintain the level of security US military spending provides, they're going to have serious issues funding their social programs. The "big 3" (France, Germany, UK) would need a 10x increase in their submarine forces, massively scale up their F-35 purchases, build hundreds of billions worth of carriers & associated air wings, Germany would have to start a nuclear program, etc, etc. Our spending per GDP is about 5%. Theirs is 2%, with much smaller economies, which would ramp up to 10%+ to try and match the military force we deploy on their behalf.

#169 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG AT 2017-03-18 01:33 PM | REPLY

Those are some nice made up numbers you've got there. You miss two crucial points: the first is that, even with a dramatic scaling back of US forces, NATO badly outmatches Russian conventionally in both technology and training. The second and more important point is that NATO doesn't even need to match Russia conventionally: nuclear deterrence will prevent conventional conflicts from occurring.

#177 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-18 02:43 PM | Reply

Say something long enough and you'll eventually be able to say "I'm right!". Right?
#175 | Posted by jpw

It's a funny thing about business cycles, especially one like this based on higher mountains of debt than the last time. When they come, the majority don't see it coming. Markets have a way of attracting dumb money before they change course.

If it makes you happy, you win. I'm wrong and your right.

Like the 1,400 stock market.
#176 | Posted by LauraMohr

Damn! I was counting on Corky to say that first.

Times have changed. All that free money has no place to go except the stock market. Could at least double over the next few years.

#178 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 02:45 PM | Reply

If it makes you happy, you win. I'm wrong and your right.

That's You're NOT Your

Like the 1,400 stock market.
#176 | Posted by LauraMohr

Damn! I was counting on Corky to say that first.

I'm sorry

Times have changed. All that free money has no place to go except the stock market. Could at least double over the next few years.

Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 02:45 PM | Reply

#179 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-18 02:48 PM | Reply

Get real Ray,

There is nothing productive about paper shuffling. Paper shuffling is an overhead to the cost of running a business, like rent. Paper shuffling in Finance, Insurance and Real Estate (FIRE) now capture 40% of all US Corporate profits, compared to 3% in the prosperous fifties. Much of the time FIRE is engaged in fraud, on a grand scale, not production. These crooks should have been locked up, not bailed out, instead they enjoy tax breaks available only to their political class. This doesn't mean that paperwork is not an essential function, but it should never dominate.

#180 | Posted by nutcase at 2017-03-18 02:55 PM | Reply

#180 | Posted by nutcase

Get real Ray,

Yeh I know. You think you're the real realist.

This doesn't mean that paperwork is not an essential function, but it should never dominate.

Agree.

Much of the time FIRE is engaged in fraud, on a grand scale, not production.

Wouldn't argue on that point. More importantly, they get away with it because they buy off Congress and the regulatory agencies. Too late to stop it. It's full speed ahead to the wall.

#181 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 03:10 PM | Reply

Those are some nice made up numbers you've got there.
#177 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2017-03-18 02:43 PM | FLAG:

Nothing about that is made up. We spend about 5%. NATO requires 2%. The UK spends 2%. Germany spends about 1.3%. To match what we spend on their behalf requires skyrocketing defense expenditures. The other NATO members only have 2 nuclear powers, with very, very few launch platforms that can easily be overmatched by Russian forces. Nuclear deterrence works if you have a massive, survivable arsenal. Without the US, NATO does not have that. Russia has the best anti-missile defense on the planet. Their conventional training has advanced leaps & bounds in the last decade, the technology edge has erroded, NATO can't even field stealth forces without the US, and the latest generation Russian fighters are an even match for the Eurofighter Typhoons. German & British tanks only have a slight quality edge over the latest T-80s, but are massively outnumbered. Russians have a massive advantage in APCs, always have. Russians have developed effective counters to EU based air superiority with the most advanced missile systems in the world.

#182 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-18 03:15 PM | Reply

actually, second best missile defense. Israel has great missile defense, but it's not deployed in the same quantity that Russia deploys theirs.

#183 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-18 03:15 PM | Reply

- Damn! I was counting on Corky to say that first.

Hey, bad penny. They finally let you outta stir?

#184 | Posted by Corky at 2017-03-18 03:40 PM | Reply

Hey, bad penny. They finally let you outta stir?
#184 | Posted by Corky

The doctor took me off my meds and released me from the psychiatric hospital.

#185 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 03:48 PM | Reply

all that said, if we stop invading the Middle East, we might actually get our spending back down to 3.5% or so.

#186 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-18 04:01 PM | Reply

#185

Damn doctors! Can't trust any of 'em.

Glad to see anyone older than me, though.

#187 | Posted by Corky at 2017-03-18 04:15 PM | Reply

"Nuclear deterrence works if you have a massive, survivable arsenal. Without the US, NATO does not have that."

Nonsense. There is no Russian regime that would sacrifice even one major Russian city for the sake of a military adventure in Europe. The requirements for deterrence are therefore minimal. Easily achieved by Britain alone.

" Russia has the best anti-missile defense on the planet."

Citation very much needed.

#188 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-18 04:20 PM | Reply

Glad to see anyone older than me, though.
#187 | Posted by Corky

I might be the oldest on this site. Age 74.

Speaking of age. What happened to Zatoichi?

#189 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 04:27 PM | Reply

Easily achieved by Britain alone.

#188 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2017-03-18 04:20 PM | FLAG:

Sink the 2 vanguards at sea at any given time, which can easily be followed by all of the modern Russian submarines using fuel cell tech which are more quiet than nuclear attack submarines, and Britain doesn't have a nuclear deterrence.

Research russian SAMs. The S-400 upgrades, and their active, nuclear tipped interceptors. They use ABM defense nobody else on the planet does, that's why it's the best. Russians have always made great missiles, it's their forte.

If you need citations, you are so out of your depth on this subject you don't even know where to begin basic research, and this is not worth my time.

#190 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-18 04:35 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

What happened to Zatoichi?

Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 04:27 PM | Reply

Dead

#191 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-18 04:56 PM | Reply

I'm shocked !!!

How about oilman? I think it was oilman. He worked on drill rigs.

#192 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 05:07 PM | Reply

I'm shocked !!!

How about oilman? I think it was oilman. He worked on drill rigs.

Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 05:07 PM | Reply

His third permanent ban Goatman is his handle.

#193 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-18 05:17 PM | Reply

Lol! He would dominate threads with constant arguments. If memory serves, with Corky.

I Notice this site isn't as active as it used to be.

#194 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 05:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Sink the 2 vanguards at sea at any given time, which can easily be followed by all of the modern Russian submarines using fuel cell tech which are more quiet than nuclear attack submarines, and Britain doesn't have a nuclear deterrence."

Too risky.

"Research russian SAMs. The S-400 upgrades, and their active, nuclear tipped interceptors. They use ABM defense nobody else on the planet does, that's why it's the best. Russians have always made great missiles, it's their forte."

Nuclear tipped interceptors? Again, what Russian administration would detonate nukes over their own territory?

#195 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2017-03-18 06:10 PM | Reply

= If memory serves, with Corky.

I didn't really speak to him after killfiling him a couple of years ago.

Talked to Mao lately?

#196 | Posted by Corky at 2017-03-18 06:49 PM | Reply

Talked to Mao lately?
#196 | Posted by Corky

Mao? I haven't talked to him since he died.

#197 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 06:57 PM | Reply

Mao? I haven't talked to him since he died.

Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 06:57 PM | Reply

Jak Se Mao died????

#198 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-18 07:02 PM | Reply

#198 | Posted by LauraMohr
Oh that one? I was thinking of Mao Tse Tung.

He was a horticulturalist or something like that. Had a different name before he changed it. We argued a lot during the early years. After a while I lost interest in him.

#199 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 07:12 PM | Reply

#198 | Posted by LauraMohr
Oh that one? I was thinking of Mao Tse Tung.

He was a horticulturalist or something like that. Had a different name before he changed it. We argued a lot during the early years. After a while I lost interest in him.

Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 07:12 PM | Reply

The same

Mao Tse Dung PinchMao and the final Jak se Mao. That's a damned shame he's gone.

#200 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-18 07:16 PM | Reply

Too risky.

Nuclear tipped interceptors? Again, what Russian administration would detonate nukes over their own territory?

#195 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2017-03-18 06:10 PM | REPLY

That's like, your opinion man lol, and yours seems ill informed on military capabilities in general. Military leaders get promoted to those positions because they believe actions like this are possible with completely manageable risks.

and any Russian admin will use air burst nukes in self defense. It's a large part of their defensive strategy. We proved it's possible with Operation Plumbob. You can stand at ground zero, with a nuclear weapon detonated at 20,000 feet, and nothing is going to happen to you until you maybe get cancer 30 years later assuming you were completely un-shielded and just standing around. Not a big deal at all to Russians.

#201 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2017-03-18 07:23 PM | Reply

#200 | Posted by LauraMohr

Another comes to mind Pragmatist? He was an English teacher.
We had many arguments over school issues. I used to piss him off a lot.

#202 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 07:34 PM | Reply

Another comes to mind Pragmatist? He was an English teacher.
We had many arguments over school issues. I used to piss him off a lot.

Posted by Ray at 2017-03-18 07:34 PM | Reply

He's posted recently.

#203 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2017-03-18 07:43 PM | Reply

--That's like, your opinion man lol, and yours seems ill informed on military capabilities in general.

Obligatory:

www.youtube.com

#204 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-03-18 07:49 PM | Reply

Jak me mao died?

He was a young guy with a young son IIRC.

#205 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-19 12:40 AM | Reply

Very young son, maybe 3 or 4 years old.

#206 | Posted by Crassus at 2017-03-19 01:20 AM | Reply

Jak me mao died?
He was a young guy with a young son IIRC.

#205 | POSTED BY JPW

I think Ray was referring to Mao Tse Tung.

Jak Se Mao is not dead.

Welcome back, Ray.

#207 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-03-19 10:50 AM | Reply

Very young son, maybe 3 or 4 years old.
#206 | POSTED BY CRASSUS

Probably close to 10 years old now.

#208 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-03-19 10:50 AM | Reply

Jeff, yes I think you are correct cause it was during the bush years. Glad to hear he isn't dead, always a great poster who made one think.

How's life? And what the heck are the Red Wings doing?

#209 | Posted by Crassus at 2017-03-19 10:58 AM | Reply

"Welcome back, Ray."

Glad you said that Jeff, I should have earlier but I think I was so surprised that I was almost speechless. I had heard rumors that Ray had died. I am very glad he hasn't and that he is back posting with us. We don't always get along but I always do respect his intellect.

#210 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-19 11:08 AM | Reply

Welcome back, Ray.
#207 | Posted by JeffJ

Thanks.

On a few occasions I would visit this site. I remember seeing you trying to make sense to these dolts. I would say to myself, "why don't you quit."

I'm not sure why I came back. It might be to lend my voice to the populist revolt that's building up. Or it might be because I was getting bored.

#211 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 11:08 AM | Reply

"Another comes to mind Pragmatist? He was an English teacher."

Another brilliant mind. We've had a surprising number of them here over the years. I do have to admit though, I still miss Spud.

#212 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-19 11:10 AM | Reply

#210 | Posted by danni

Thank you Danni. This site is an addiction. I broke it twice. I was curious to see of Rcade kept my account alive. He did. The addiction kicked in immediately.

Hopefully older and wiser.

#213 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 11:19 AM | Reply

Now go piss off Ray, you hurt my feeling not acknowledging me, you schmuck........LOL :P

#214 | Posted by Crassus at 2017-03-19 11:20 AM | Reply

How's life?

Life is pretty good. Kids are doing excellent in school. My wife goaded me into joining Weight Watchers with her and I've dropped 20 pounds in 5 weeks. Need to lose about 50 more (I REALLY allowed my weight to get out of hand). How about you? With warmer weather approaching you must be itching to hop on the motorcycle.

And what the heck are the Red Wings doing?

#209 | POSTED BY CRASSUS A

This was inevitable. 25 consecutive years making the playoffs? That streak was destined to end. They are in a bit of a rebuilding phase. They'll improve over the next few seasons. I was actually at the game yesterday (won 5-1). I haven't been watching them much - they play really boring hockey these days.

On a few occasions I would visit this site. I remember seeing you trying to make sense to these dolts. I would say to myself, "why don't you quit."

I did quit for about a year. I didn't miss it. Not sure why I came back, but I did.

#215 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-03-19 11:28 AM | Reply

Crassus.

Will you accept my deepest apology?
It's an honor to have you by my side in the fight against the evil left.

#216 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 11:30 AM | Reply

Glad you said that Jeff, I should have earlier but I think I was so surprised that I was almost speechless. I had heard rumors that Ray had died. I am very glad he hasn't and that he is back posting with us. We don't always get along but I always do respect his intellect.

#210 | POSTED BY DANNI

I remember those rumors and I squashed them. When I saw the rumors I just went to Ray's sun-worshipping bible site and was able to see that he was still active on the net, hence, still alive.

#217 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-03-19 11:31 AM | Reply

Another brilliant mind. We've had a surprising number of them here over the years. I do have to admit though, I still miss Spud.

#212 | POSTED BY DANNI

Chairborne has a theory regarding Spud.

#218 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-03-19 11:31 AM | Reply

It has been fun watching Crassus become rather vilified on this site. Over the last 8 years he was every bit as tough on Obama and Democrats as he was with Bush and Republicans.

People would say things like: "I don't know what happened to you." Or, "You used to be much more reasonable."

It always made me laugh because he hasn't changed one iota.

#219 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-03-19 11:52 AM | Reply

Thanks JeffJ, it kills me that so many here don't see my expectations of those who represent us.

My Sharks are the best right now :P

#220 | Posted by Crassus at 2017-03-19 12:03 PM | Reply

Ray, I was giving you a teasing nudge :)

It's an honor to have you by my side in the fight against the evil left.

I don't think of them as evil left but surely schmack at their hypocritical flip flops. How I see it currently is the left is so entrenched in the party politics they have removed themselves of what our nations goals should be.

#221 | Posted by Crassus at 2017-03-19 12:07 PM | Reply

I will give trump a typical 2 year chance, I don't listen to how he says things but listen to what he is trying to say.....I actually listen not hear, it is something I think many here lack.

I have seen over the last 2 years, trump is a fisher man, he lead with a line and give it slack until the right moment and pull and set the hook.

#222 | Posted by Crassus at 2017-03-19 12:14 PM | Reply

"How I see it currently is the left is so entrenched in the party politics they have removed themselves of what our nations goals should be."

My goals haven't changed since I was 21 years old arguing with my Dad. I am still certain that those goals are absolutely the right way for our nation to go. No more unnecessary wars, cut defense spending, universal healthcare, higher taxes on the wealthy which would make higher wages for the working class happen. Higher wages do not come as a result of tax cuts, they come as a result of tax increases which motivate the wealthy to look harder for tax exemptions. We built the richest country in the world based on those principles and only distorted values now keep us from returning to the success we formerly enjoyed.

#223 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-19 12:16 PM | Reply

#222 | POSTED BY CRASSUS

I am also in wait-and-see mode.

That he is constantly saying stupid and provably false things both in public and on Twitter is beyond aggravating. At the end of the day though, that stuff just isn't all that important.

#224 | Posted by JeffJ at 2017-03-19 12:21 PM | Reply

I don't think of them as evil left but surely schmack at their hypocritical flip flops.
#221 | Posted by Crassus

Of course they don't see themselves as evil. From my perch, anyone who upholds the rights of the state to steal from me and restrict my civil liberties, is evil. The need to control others is embedded in their inner fiber.

#225 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 12:23 PM | Reply

That he is constantly saying stupid and provably false things both in public and on Twitter is beyond aggravating.

What of the fact he's doing stupid things?

His use of tax payer dollars for vacations and putting up melania and DumpJr in Dump Tower, is a huge waste of tax dollars.

His budget cuts are overwhelmingly aggravating. His plans for our future are misdirected.

I grew up on a saying of "United we Stand. Divided we Fall."

Donnie has definitely divided America. And our nation is falling.

#226 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-03-19 12:32 PM | Reply

- upholds the rights of the state to steal from me and restrict my civil liberties, is evil.

"We the People, in order to form...."

Oh, nevermind. We lost the rwingers and libertarians (but I repeat myself} at, "We the People".

If one believes that government, "of, by, and for, the People" does not now exist, then changing the government's diapers, smelly as they may be, is better than throwing the baby democratic republic out with the bathwater of the abuse of the wealthy and powerful.

The need to not recognize "others" as People, too, is sociopathic.

That's what Ayn Rand was all about.

#227 | Posted by Corky at 2017-03-19 12:54 PM | Reply

Donnie has definitely divided America. And our nation is falling.
#226 | Posted by ClownShack

Standard leftist deflection. Nothing is ever their fault.

Now that I'm back. Corky is trolling Ayn Rand again.

#228 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 01:26 PM | Reply

How's it going Ray? Havent seen you in a while. Good to see you are back..

#229 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-19 01:26 PM | Reply

BTW Ray,

I've become a silver bug. Been buying all the silver coins I can get, especially the Eagle. Joined NGC and now I have my commemorables sent to be graded..

#230 | Posted by boaz at 2017-03-19 01:28 PM | Reply

Standard leftist deflection. Nothing is ever their fault.

Standard rightist deflections. Deny reality.

Responsibility is always someone else's burden.

#231 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-03-19 01:29 PM | Reply

I've become a silver bug. Been buying all the silver coins I can get, especially the Eagle. Joined NGC and now I have my commemorables sent to be graded..
#230 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2017-03-19 01:28 PM | FLAG:

Take it to the nooner.

No one gives a ----.

#232 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-03-19 01:30 PM | Reply

I was curious to see of Rcade kept my account alive. He did. The addiction kicked in immediately.

I get the sense that you have to get a ban hammered for an account to be deactivated.

As in, go after Rcade in a way that he won't tolerate your presence.

#233 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-19 01:47 PM | Reply

How's it going Ray? Havent seen you in a while. Good to see you are back..
#229 | Posted by boaz

Thanks Boaz. Doing well. Healthy and fit.

I reached my limit of silver about ten years ago. Nothing changed my reason for stacking. It's not an investment; it's insurance.

I wouldn't think of retiring. It's too dangerous. We're close to a major pension default sure to spread all over the country.

#234 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 01:49 PM | Reply

I did quit for about a year. I didn't miss it. Not sure why I came back, but I did.

#215 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

You know there's a sick pleasure in the slap fights we engage in here.

Hell, sometimes there's actual conversation too, like when a BBQ or music thread shows up.

#235 | Posted by jpw at 2017-03-19 01:50 PM | Reply

I get the sense that you have to get a ban hammered for an account to be deactivated.
As in, go after Rcade in a way that he won't tolerate your presence.
#233 | Posted by jpw

That's the conclusion I came to. I didn't see myself as a special case. It just seemed unusual to keep my account open for all these years.

#236 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 01:51 PM | Reply

Standard leftist deflection. Nothing is ever their fault.
Standard rightist deflections. Deny reality.
Responsibility is always someone else's burden.
#231 | Posted by ClownShack

Both sides are right about the other side. That's the kind of conflict it takes for a nation to self destruct.

#237 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 01:54 PM | Reply

- Corky is trolling Ayn Rand again.

Ray is Deflecting about me in lieu of any argument to what I said.

Same old Ray.

#238 | Posted by Corky at 2017-03-19 01:58 PM | Reply

Okay Corky. I'll take the challenge.

The Constitution is --------. It was written and signed by wealthy merchants, farmers and bankers to protect THEIR property. It was designed to make the hoi poi think they have a voice in government.

That's the short answer why there will always be a wealthy 1% for as long as this government exists.

#239 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 02:09 PM | Reply

--The Constitution is --------. It was written and signed by wealthy merchants, farmers and bankers to protect THEIR property.

That's odd. A leftist SJW was calling the Founders "racist oligarchs" just the other day.

I think it's one of the great achievements of classical liberalism; one that has given us 200 years of peaceful transfers of power and a level of individual liberty unprecedented in human history.

#240 | Posted by nullifidian at 2017-03-19 02:29 PM | Reply

#240 | Posted by nullifidian

I play with many ways of looking at the Constitution. It did what you said. But it also sowed the seeds for expansion with the power to tax. During the early years, the US was too small to take away individual liberties. As it expanded, liberty diminished. The two are mutually exclusive.

If there was such thing as a perfect Constitution, no piece of paper can change human nature.

#241 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 03:00 PM | Reply

During the early years, the US was too small to take away individual liberties.

Really? What are you basing your stupid statement on?

#242 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-03-19 03:02 PM | Reply

Oh great. My second day back and I have a clown trolling me.

#243 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 03:07 PM | Reply

Well you could just stop posting such stupid tripe.

But. That's probably beyond a Donnie ----------.

#244 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-03-19 03:12 PM | Reply

If you had the capacity to grow into a thinking adult, you would train yourself to understand all sides of an issue.

Trying to shut down ideas that don't agree with yours is how you stay one dimensional.

#245 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 03:27 PM | Reply

"If there was such thing as a perfect Constitution, no piece of paper can change human nature."

Agreed. There is no such thing as a perfect Constitution but our Constitution is the closest mankind has ever come to it, IMHO. So now, let me ask you, do you support the Koch brothers and ALEX's desire to hold a constitutional convention and rewrite our constitution? I'll be right up front about it, I think it would start a civil war in America. I would fight against anyone who tried to use a convention to eliminate the rights our forefathers fought and died for. I might not make a good soldier but I'd give it my best effort.

#246 | Posted by danni at 2017-03-19 03:34 PM | Reply

#246

There's nothing wrong with the concept of a constitutional convention. In fact it actually sets a higher bar for making changes to the constitution than the Congressional Amendment method. 38 States would need to ratify the new constitution, which would be very difficult to do. Congress can Amend the constitution with a majority of 2/3rds or more in both the House and Senate.

#247 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-03-19 04:16 PM | Reply

And I suspect you'd have little problem with a constitutional convention if it were being driven by Bernie Sanders, MoveOn, or other similar parties.

#248 | Posted by madbomber at 2017-03-19 04:17 PM | Reply

do you support the Koch brothers and ALEX's desire to hold a constitutional convention and rewrite our constitution?

Absolute not!

I'll be right up front about it, I think it would start a civil war in America.

That's about right.

There is too much going on at this time for even a Constitutional amendment.

#249 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 04:26 PM | Reply

Should I be buying gold.

Addressed to no one in particular.

#250 | Posted by bruceaz at 2017-03-19 04:37 PM | Reply | Funny: 3

Should I be buying gold.

Silver coins are a better choice as insurance against economic collapse. Prices are cheap now. So its a good time to buy. Hide them in a safe place. You'll pay a higher premium for American coins. Foreign coins are okay too. There are local dealers. If you go mail order, try to get some insight if the dealer is honest.

#251 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 04:51 PM | Reply

If you had the capacity to grow into a thinking adult, you would train yourself to understand all sides of an issue.
Trying to shut down ideas that don't agree with yours is how you stay one dimensional.
#245 | POSTED BY RAY AT 2017-03-19 03:27 PM | FLAG:

Wow. You're such an adult. Your opinions are so open minded and dynamic.

Too bad none of it is reflected in your posts.

#252 | Posted by ClownShack at 2017-03-19 05:36 PM | Reply

-The Constitution is --------.

North Korea has some openings for mindless nihilists, you might try there.

#253 | Posted by Corky at 2017-03-19 06:58 PM | Reply

ni•hil•ism (ˈnaɪ əˌlɪz əm, ˈni-)

n.
1. total rejection of established laws and institutions.
2. anarchy, terrorism, or other revolutionary activity.

I suppose you imply definition 1. If you give it enough thought, you'll notice the political class treats the Constitution like it doesn't exist. There's a few exceptions, but not many.

#254 | Posted by Ray at 2017-03-19 07:20 PM | Reply

SO, you and they have much in common.

#255 | Posted by Corky at 2017-03-19 10:56 PM | Reply

ni·hil·ism

historical
the doctrine of an extreme Russian revolutionary party c. 1900, which found nothing to approve of in the established social order.

Ray the Russian revolutionary, lol

#256 | Posted by Corky at 2017-03-20 01:09 AM | Reply

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