Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Friday, September 23, 2016

Just five days ahead of the all-important first presidential debate, a brand-new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll shows some encouraging signs for Hillary Clinton. The Democratic presidential nominee leads Donald Trump by six points among likely voters in a four-way match up. The survey was taken AFTER Clinton's health controversy. She also leads Trump by seven points in a head-to-head matchup in what is the NBC/WSJ poll's first 2016 survey of likely voters. What is just as encouraging for the Clinton camp is that they are running nearly even when it comes to voter enthusiasm. Seventy-eight percent of Trump's voters said they are highly interested in the election, versus 75 percent of Clinton voters. The numbers give Democrats momentum heading into the biggest night (so far) of the campaign and also raises the stakes for Trump's first debate appearance.

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In a four-way horserace, Clinton gets support from 43 percent of likely voters and Trump gets 37 percent, while Libertarian nominee Gary Johnson is at 9 percent and the Green Party's Jill Stein is at 3 percent.

In a head-to-head matchup without those third-party candidates, Clinton's advantage expands to seven points, 48 percent to 41 percent. This is the NBC/WSJ poll's first general-election poll of likely voters in the 2016 race.

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The media is expecting yuuge ratings for the first debate Mon night, you know, since they have given Trump all this free air time to make it competitive; aka making their cash registers ring.

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-21 06:15 PM | Reply

She also leads Trump by seven points in a head-to-head matchup in what is the NBC/WSJ poll's first 2016 survey of likely voters.

Trump is being lapped by an old lady with pneumonia. So sad.

#2 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2016-09-21 07:13 PM | Reply

So they say,

Just in time for the debates.

Hillary needs any positive projection money can buy at this point...

#3 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2016-09-21 09:08 PM | Reply

NBC News/Wall Street Journal

Plus 6?? Is that all?? haha

It's NBC and Wall Street...she should be like +22 with that crowd.

#4 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-21 10:40 PM | Reply

projects.fivethirtyeight.com

This has to be one of the most depressing things I've seen in a long time.

Even with a complete turd like Trump, a predictable lot of states will vote R.

We, as a country, don't deserve to survive.

#5 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 02:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Trump will outperform during the first debate and considered the winner by polls and/or the media. Historically, the candidate of the non-incumbent party "wins" the first presidential debate and causes pants-wetting amongst party partisan the losing "side."

#6 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-22 02:15 PM | Reply

#5 - depressingly true.

#7 | Posted by YAV at 2016-09-22 02:35 PM | Reply

Even with a complete turd like Trump, a predictable lot of states will vote R.

It suggests to me that even if we escape the disaster of electing a dumpster fire as president, we'll face the same risk in 2020, 2024 and beyond.

#9 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-23 11:40 AM | Reply

Trump will outperform during the first debate ...

He didn't outperform at the Commander-in-Chief forum. It was all bald-faced lies and empty bluster.

He's going to have trouble filling the time in a 90-minute debate with only one other candidate on the stage. His lack of interest or knowledge of policy will be a huge weakness.

#10 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-23 11:41 AM | Reply

"Even with a complete turd like Trump, a predictable lot of states will vote R."

It's a reality on both sides. Nobody is changing the reality that a lot of states will vote D no matter what.

"We, as a country, don't deserve to survive."

I do.

:-)

#11 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-23 11:43 AM | Reply

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The presidential debates are the first opportunity for voters to view the two major party candidates in a setting where they are head-to-head and able to define themselves in their own words.

The folks which the "liberal" candidate calls the "Deplorable" demographic of America: the hourly working-class folks of the US, those who can barely tolerate the breathless tabloid-esque campaign coverage of both mainstream presidential candidates, will finally begin to tune into the presidential race during the First Presidential Debate.
In a sense, the first debate serves as a public catalyst welcoming the type of person who is a regular voter, but irregular media-consumer, the individual insight into the presidential candidate via their own words in non-soundbite form.

Now, who will preform better on the Debate Stage:
The Showman
or
The Secretary?

#12 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 11:46 AM | Reply

Trump owns TV in a manner similar to JFK. Trump understands how 21st century media operates on all levels, from Twitter to the classic evening news. The low expectations from liberal pundits nearly assures his victory in the first debate on Monday (so excited!).

#13 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 11:49 AM | Reply

"It suggests to me that even if we escape the disaster of electing a dumpster fire as president...."

The only non-dumpster fire running is polling at 3% so its pretty safe to say we are ending up with a dumpster fire as President.

#14 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-23 11:54 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

It suggests to me that even if we escape the disaster of electing a dumpster fire as president, we'll face the same risk in 2020, 2024 and beyond.

#9 | POSTED BY RCADE

Hence the reason we need to start pushing competition at the two party system. The Dems have no reason to give a lot of progressive policy they never intend to enact any more than lip service, as long as they can keep us afraid of Republicans. ..And visa-versa.

Both parties keep us divided by wedge issues simply to keep themselves in power, and their fat benefactors even fatter.

#15 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2016-09-23 11:57 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#9 unless by some miracle the GOP learns from this and quits this playing with fire strategy they've employed the past several cycles.

#16 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 11:58 AM | Reply

"Trump owns TV in a manner similar to JFK."

Utterly ridiculous. H does TV like Macho Camacho, the President in Idiocracy.

JFK came across as a serious person who knew foreign and domestic policy inside and out.

#17 | Posted by danni at 2016-09-23 12:04 PM | Reply

"Trump owns TV in a manner similar to Snooki, from the Jersey Shore."

Yep. They're both stupid angry entitled reality television whores.

Which. Explains your infatuation with him.

Your brain has rotted.

#18 | Posted by ClownShack at 2016-09-23 12:10 PM | Reply


Your brain has rotted. #18 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Mean and pointless ad hominem; this negative rhetoric may be a symptom of being one of Hillary's Deplorables.

#19 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 12:14 PM | Reply

www.rasmussenreports.com

Trump +5

#20 | Posted by fishpaw at 2016-09-23 12:17 PM | Reply

this negative rhetoric may be a symptom of being one of Hillary's Deplorables.

I'm a Shillary deplorable!?

Hahahaha!!!

Now I know your brain has rotted.

(Just to bring you up to speed. I'm very anti Hillary. She's a republican neocon warmonger in the pocket of Wall Street and the ultra rich. That said. Trump's an imbecilic moron with the mental prowess of a child. He's been caught telling more lies than Hillary has been accused of. Which is remarkable. His plan to win the election and then allow Pence to preside. Shows his absolute disinterest in actually being president. The only people voting for this ass are gullible fools and angry morons. Take your pick.)

#21 | Posted by ClownShack at 2016-09-23 12:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Hahahaha!!!
Haha, alright I'm still getting a hang of things and where individual battle lines lay now that I'm back from 'vacation.'

Shows his absolute disinterest in actually being president.

It will be a healthy transition to a more European-esque system where the President is the Domestic hypeman elected for ceremonial events and speeches, whereas the PM (Vice President) is tasked with the minutia of legislation whipping and delicate bureaucratic agenda items.

#22 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 12:31 PM | Reply

It's going to be an interesting exchange. Expect Hillary trying to look, act, and sound presidential; so much so, that she'll appear stiff and phony. The Donald will be all over the map - from calm, to eye-rolling, to zingers. It's going to be a wild ride.

What's the over/under on who tells the most lies?

#23 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-23 12:33 PM | Reply

Just to bring you up to speed. I'm very anti Hillary. She's a republican neocon warmonger in the pocket of Wall Street and the ultra rich.

#21 | Posted by ClownShack at 2016-09-23 12:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

You forgot influence peddler.

With regards to what Rcade was saying about the Republicans, I have a friend who is a staunch Republican (had a poster of Reagan in his childhood bedroom) who is anti-Trump but he insists that the GOP has learend from this and promote better candidates going forward. Then again, he also thought Bush was a good enough candidate to vote for twice so I have my doubts his ability to think this stuff through...

#24 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-23 12:38 PM | Reply

The equivalency of the two candidate's qualifications either temperamentally or experience-wise promoted by some Hillary Haters is ludicrous. Of course, some of them fell for Trump's con right away, so they shouldn't be trusted with sharp objects anyway.

#25 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 12:47 PM | Reply

Haters who deny being Haters... of course, they'd rather help Trump with their vote than help America by voting for Dem policies rather than supporting Alt Orange GOP policies.

But then, if they weren't smart enough to recognize what Trump is from the beginning, as most of us here did, then they aren't smart enough to figure that out either.

#27 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 01:00 PM | Reply

"help America by voting for Dem policies "

That's what I'm doing by voting for Jill Stein.

You're the one backing the corporatly owned neocon, who has apparetly fooled you into thinking she is something else for well over 20 years running. "There's no fool like an old fool" never sounded more true!

#28 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-23 01:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Haters who deny being Haters...they aren't smart enough to figure that out either.

Interesting self-introspection there, Corky.

#29 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 01:05 PM | Reply

-voting for Jill Stein.

Might as well write in Mickey Mouse for all the good that will do. But Trump appreciates your support in NJ. A non-Hater with your policy views might well have voted for Dem policy rather than throw their vote away.

Just ask Bernie... or Liz Warren or Noam Chomsky. They'll tell you the same... when they stop laughing.

#30 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 01:07 PM | Reply

#29

No one asked the rwinger.

#31 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 01:08 PM | Reply

Might as well write in Mickey Mouse for all the good that will do.

#30 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 01:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

I don't want Mickey Mouse to be president. I want Jill Stein to be president.

Also, the Trump fear mongering doesn't work if you're shilling for a candidate who is every bit as bad. Don't tell me that my vote won't do any good when you actively shill for someone whose record proves that she will do us great harm.

Oh, and Hillary doesn't appreciate your support, BTW. You don't have enough money to matter to her.

#32 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-23 01:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

No one asked the rwinger.

#31 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 01:08 PM | Reply | Flag

Says the guy who is tirelessly shilling for the farthest to the right candidate in this election.

#33 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-23 01:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Read elsewhere about this upcoming debate:


Remember what happened in 2008 when John McCain referred to his long experience: "Obama said 'If experience means you got us into this mess overseas and tanked the economy, maybe experience is overrated.' We are turning this around on Clinton now." - veteran pollster Kellyanne Conway.

Trump's advantage? "Americans love to say they think outside the box. Trump lives outside the box. Hillary is the box."

Brits likewise thought they were thinking "outside the box" when they voted to support sovereignty and chose to Brexit. Oh, certainly, the ideological momentum which motivated UK voters to support Brexit couldn't feasibly cross the pond and affect American voters.

#34 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 01:32 PM | Reply

- I want Jill Stein to be president.

You are living in a childish fantasy world if you think that is going to happen. But you know it isn't so you are just in denial and lashing out because, like your toddler hero Trump, you aren't getting your way.

- a candidate who is every bit as bad.

Only to a Hater. Any objective analysis would reveal that she is more qualified temperamentally and experience-wise, and many do. There are lots of reasons to vote for her.

www.gazettenet.com

- You don't have enough money to matter to her.

There's that Hate again, distorting reality.

- the farthest to the right candidate in this election.

Hate is a powerful anti-lucidity potion.

#35 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 01:32 PM | Reply

"Says the guy who is tirelessly shilling for the farthest to the right candidate in this election."

Yeah, don't believe anything Trump says when he tells you that he will appoint judges like Scalia.

#36 | Posted by danni at 2016-09-23 01:35 PM | Reply

- the farthest to the right candidate in this election.

lol, with Roger Ailes, Breitbart Bannon, and David Bosse on his campaign staff, Trump is left of Hillary... hahahaha!

Pence's model VP is Dick Cheney.... you must love looking like an idiot, you do it so often.

#37 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 01:35 PM | Reply

What's the over/under on who tells the most lies?
#23 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM AT 2016-09-23 12:33 PM

Trump would be a safe bet. They're both pathological liars but Trump's BS generator is running full power 24/7.

#38 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-23 01:41 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Hillary is the only neocon in the race.

You can jump up and down and scream "Hater!" until your Depends are full and tha won't make here any less of a rightwing warmongering corporate shill.

#39 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-23 01:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Hypothetical question, if Trump were to get elected somehow, and he tries to appoint Scalia's clone to the SC, why can't the Dems just take a cue from the Repubs and block it?

#40 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-23 01:44 PM | Reply

why can't the Dems just take a cue from the Repubs and block it? #40 | POSTED BY LIVE_OR_DIE

Dems suffering from severe partisanship often forget that Congress serves to check the power of the executive branch.

#41 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 01:47 PM | Reply

lol, with Roger Ailes, Breitbart Bannon, and David Bosse on his campaign staff, Trump is left of Hillary... hahahaha!
Pence's model VP is Dick Cheney
#37 | POSTED BY CORKY

Too bad you tanked the one guy that was polling ahead of Trump in head-2 head matchups.

Now you're in a panic and want to blame anything but your crappy candidate.

Typical Clinton move.

#42 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-23 01:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

why can't the Dems just take a cue from the Repubs and block it?

#40 | POSTED BY LIVE_OR_DIE AT 2016-09-23 01:44 PM | FLAG:

Didn't they do that with W only to have the GOP threaten to go NUCULAR?

#43 | Posted by 726 at 2016-09-23 01:59 PM | Reply

"Now you're in a panic and want to blame anything but your crappy candidate."

Confuses reality with Drudgeretort. In the real world Hillary Clinton is leading not Donald Trump. In the real world Donald Trump is likely to look like an idiot at the debate.

#44 | Posted by danni at 2016-09-23 02:01 PM | Reply

Dems suffering from severe partisanship often forget that Congress serves to check the power of the executive branch.

#41 | POSTED BY GONOLES92 AT 2016-09-23 01:47 PM | REPLY | FLAG

The roles were exactly reversed in 2005 when the Dems threatened to filibuster 7 of the his 200 judicial nominees. What is the excuse for the GOP then?

#45 | Posted by 726 at 2016-09-23 02:02 PM | Reply

What is the excuse for the GOP then? POSTED BY 726

That's how politics works. Following that situation, the two party leaders met and began a dialog which ended in compromise (likely some horsetrading involved) and facilitated a renewal of Congressional vetting of the judges.

The Senate's top Democrat said Monday he is still working with his Republican counterpart, Majority Leader Bill Frist, in hopes of defusing a standoff over some of President Bush's judicial nominees.
www.cnn.com

#46 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 02:06 PM | Reply

-Hillary is the only neocon in the race.

That's hilarious. The only person with actual real-life PCAC signing advisors and future admin Cabinet and Sec appointees is your hero Trump, you know, the guy you are helping in NJ by wasting your vote because you Hate Hillary.

If Biden or just about any other Dem was the Dem candidate, you'd be voting for them because you know, or should know, that Dem policies are better for America. As it is, your irrational Hate helps Trump.

You'd rather practice political ------------; voting for what makes you feel good rather than voting for the policies that are best for the country.

Voting is a civic duty to do what is best for the people of your country, not a feel good moment to indulge in your political fantasies by voting for someone with no chance to win while helping the worst possible candidate with the worst possible policies for the country, Trump.

#47 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 02:08 PM | Reply

#22 except that's not how our system is set up to work.

That's gotta be the most asinine excuse for Trump's stupidity that I've ever read.

#48 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 02:09 PM | Reply

except that's not how our system is set up to work. #48 | POSTED BY JPW

It wouldn't be the first time a president delegated policy endeavors to others. President Wilson, leader of the Progressive Movement, was a bedridden invalid for the last 18 months of his presidency, but his constituents didn't care all too much.

Trump will easily outperform that historical hero of progressiveness.

#49 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 02:15 PM | Reply

Voting is a civic duty to do what is best for the people of your country, not a feel good moment to indulge in your political fantasies by voting for someone with no chance to win while helping the worst possible candidate with the worst possible policies for the country, Trump.

#47 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 02:08 PM | Reply

Why do you think my vote is somehow owed to the lying, warmongering, influence peddling bankster you support? Your entire position is based on the anti-American idea that I have to vote a certain way. You are a pathetic excuse for an American.

And in reality you helped Trump with your support of Hillary. If it weren't for dopes like you, we'd be looking at a Sanders landslide.

Its not my fault amoral party hacks refuse to vote for the only decent human being left in the race. Own your behavior, you pathetic old coot. Stop projecting your failures onto everyone else.

#50 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-23 02:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"Voting is a civic duty to do what is best for the people of your country" #47 | POSTED BY CORKY

I agree. Since the two-party system is so corrupted, then true patriots, the civic-minded, and well informed will vote 3rd party.

Let the idiots choose their chief idiot by themselves. they don't need us - we don't need them.

#51 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-23 02:33 PM | Reply

cause they didn't know! POSTED BY CHIEFTUTMOSES

ThatsTheJoke.JPEG

#53 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 02:37 PM | Reply

Its not my fault amoral party hacks refuse to vote for the only decent human being left in the race. Own your behavior, you pathetic old coot. Stop projecting your failures onto everyone else. #50 | POSTED BY SULLY

A wise philosopher has words of advice for severe partisans who cast stones against those who seek to improve the two party system by voting Third Party.

"Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow."
― Plato

#54 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-23 02:40 PM | Reply

-owed to

Sane stupid meme, different day. You are caricaturing, not arguing a point.

- amoral party hacks

Again, since you are thick as a brick, there is only one viablem electable party in America for any left leaning person as that GOP has failed to put forth a better set of policies than the Dems in my lifetime.

That being the fact, supporting any other party in this election would be foolish.... and the "party hack" meme as stupid and irrelevant as the "owed to" meme.

#55 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 03:12 PM | Reply

-the only decent human being left in the race. (primary)

Thinks you are a moron for throwing away your vote. Ask him... or just read what he says...

Bernie Sanders: ‘This is not the time for a protest vote'

"This is not the time for a protest vote, in terms of a presidential campaign," Sanders said. "I ran as a third-party candidate. I'm the longest-serving independent in the history of the United States Congress. I know more about third-party politics than anyone else in the Congress, okay? And if people want to run as third-party candidates, God bless them! Run for Congress. Run for governor. Run for state legislature.

When we're talking about president of the United States, in my own personal view, this is not time for a protest vote. This is time to elect Hillary Clinton and then work after the election to mobilize millions of people to make sure she can be the most progressive president she can be."

www.washingtonpost.com

The Folly of the Protest Vote

First -- and this cannot be said enough -- Clinton and Trump are not equally bad candidates. One is a conventional politician who has a long record of public service full of pros and cons. The other is a demagogic bigot with a puddle-deep understanding of national and international issues, who openly courts white nationalism, is hostile to women, Mexicans and Muslims, and is callously using black people as pawns in a Donnie-come-lately kinder-gentler campaign.

There is a simple truth here: Either Clinton or Trump will be the next president of the United States. Not Jill Stein. Not Gary Johnson. Clinton or Trump.

www.nytimes.com

#56 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 03:17 PM | Reply

Sane stupid meme, different day. You are caricaturing, not arguing a point.

#55 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 03:12 PM | Reply

Its not a meme. Its the logical response to your asinine assertion that voting for Jill Stein helps Trump. Not my fault you're too stupid and learn and move on. "Meme" doesn't mean "a logical point that refutes Corky's babblings".

And when I refered to the only decent human being left in the race, I meant Stein, quite obviously.

Bernie decided to go major party and lost in a rigged process and for whatever reason is sticking by the result even after it was proven that they conspired to cheat him. That's his problem, not mine.

You guys cheated for a horrible candidate and now she might lose to Trump.

#57 | Posted by sully at 2016-09-23 03:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"is only one viablem electable party in America for any left leaning person"

But Hillary is a neocon. People this talking point fools: 0

#58 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-23 03:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

More squawking about a poor candidate that can't rally enough votes.

The informed will vote 3rd party. Let the Turd Polishers polish their turds alone.

#59 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-23 03:45 PM | Reply

"There is a simple truth here: Either Clinton or Trump will be the next president of the United States. Not Jill Stein. Not Gary Johnson. Clinton or Trump."

Good. Then let the idiots who rally the most idiots choose their Chief Idiot.

#60 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-23 03:48 PM | Reply

NBC News/Wall Street Journal
Plus 6?? Is that all?? haha
It's NBC and Wall Street...she should be like +22 with that crowd.

#4 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM

Not sure how polls work, huh?

The stupid is strong with this one.

#61 | Posted by Sycophant at 2016-09-23 03:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Protest Vote....LOL

a ton of votes for Hillary are "protest" votes. Trump is causing the most protest votes.....more than Hillary.

and some folks voting for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson like them. they aren't "protesting".

I think most 3rd party votes are protest votes, but not all.

IOW, Neither Stein nor Johnson will cost Hillary the election. In fact, they might be helping her.

#62 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-23 04:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

-But Hillary is a neocon.

If you say this often enough and loud enough, well, it already happened, you "think" it's true.

As already pointed out to you; The only person with actual real-life PCAC signing advisors and future admin Cabinet and Sec appointees is your hero Trump

-your asinine assertion that voting for Jill Stein helps Trump.

Wow, now Bernie is asinine.

But hey, some supposed lefties have a lot of practice stabbing Obama in the back, no surprise they would also do the same for Bernie.

.

But it's not surprising either, really, that reality TV show types, you know, Gen South Park mentalities, would put more emphasis on who happens to be leading the party rather than what the party stands for and that their policies are better for the country than the only other electable party's policies.

I mean, when one can Hate the caricature bought and paid for by rwingers for 20 years, that's SO much easier than discerning who's electable and which policies are better for the country... apparently no matter how obvious the answer is to non-Haters.

This is the fast food generation that wants their MTV and wants it NOW! As long as they get to vote their really, really fav no-chance candidate, who cares what that might mean for the country.

#63 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 05:25 PM | Reply

"Why A Vote For A Third Party Cannot Be An Option For Progressives

But while it is easy to understand the reasons that some people might be inclined to choose a "protest" vote -- or decide to sit on their hands -- the fact is that either of these actions will have one and only one result: putting Donald Trump into the White House.

www.huffingtonpost.com

"Nader Elected Bush: Why We Shouldn't Forget

By Bill Scher
May 31, 2016

Polls show that many Bernie Sanders voters say they will withhold their support for Hillary Clinton, and that's exactly how likely Green Party nominee Jill Stein wants it. She is tailoring her rhetoric to woo their votes, and in the process is rejecting claims that her campaign will be a "spoiler" candidacy, splitting the left and electing Donald Trump.

Memories of Ralph Nader's 2000 Green candidacy are never too far away for older Democratic voters, but apparently this is not true for legions of youthful Sanders supporters, some of whom were in diapers at the time. So Stein is re-litigating the case, arguing that Nader deserves no blame for George W. Bush becoming president.

Polls show that many Bernie Sanders voters say they will withhold their support for Hillary Clinton, and that's exactly how likely Green Party nominee Jill Stein wants it. She is tailoring her rhetoric to woo their votes, and in the process is rejecting claims that her campaign will be a "spoiler" candidacy, splitting the left and electing Donald Trump.

Memories of Ralph Nader's 2000 Green candidacy are never too far away for older Democratic voters, but apparently this is not true for legions of youthful Sanders supporters, some of whom were in diapers at the time. So Stein is re-litigating the case, arguing that Nader deserves no blame for George W. Bush becoming president.

So it is necessary to set the record straight. Even if you believe (as I do) that the Supreme Court improperly stopped a Florida recount that could well have given the race to Gore, the fact remains that without Nader on the ballot, there would have been no protracted recount spectacle and no Supreme Court involvement. (factual argument at the link}

But our presidential election system does force individuals to vote strategically -- or pay a political price. We have no runoff elections. The plurality winner gets all of a state's Electoral College votes.

If you refuse to accept that mathematical reality, and you deliberately vote without strategic consideration, you get more results like 2000.

Yes, it's your vote. You can do with it what you like, based on what criteria you choose. If you think Trump is no worse than Clinton, then you should feel no obligation to vote for Clinton.

But don't pretend your actions don't have consequences. To willfully ignore the practical implications of your vote, and blame the candidate for the choice that you make, is an abdication of your responsibility as a voter."

(excepts)

www.realclearpolitics.com

#64 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 05:26 PM | Reply

[...] In reality, Hillary Clinton's policies make her a neocon, not a progressive. If you want to vote for a progressive, the only available option is Stein.

That's not why I'm voting for her. And my vote certainly isn't a "protest vote". I just think she's the best candidate available in that she's not a moron (Johnson) or an objectively terrible person (Trump, Clinton).

And yes, the assertion that a vote for Stein "helps Trump" is asinine becuse it defies all logic.

A vote for Stein is not a vote for Trump so it doesn't help Trump. That's the only logical way to look at it.

Any other claim is based on false logic and immoral premises involving Stein voters somehow being obligated to vote for someone else.

#65 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-23 05:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#65

I see the facts presented in the articles you didn't read couldn't influence your unreality.

Never thought it could, really.

-If you want to vote for a progressive, the only available unelectable option is Stein.

ft

Clinton is by all measures, Sen voting record, Sec of State record, a progressive.

But I understand that when NATO allies France and Britain backed out on their support for Libya and it went south, that meant it was ALL HILLARY'S FAULT ALL THE TIME to the simple-minded caricature believers. Obama not involved, NATO at no fault, no, just Hillary... it's amazing she had time she was so busy cutting Amb Stevens throat in this fantasy you have created for yourself... you know the one where she or State were responsible for security at that outpost... when it was a military responsibility all along.

But as Mr Sher notes; "But don't pretend your actions don't have consequences. To willfully ignore the practical implications of your vote, and blame the candidate for the choice that you make, is an abdication of your responsibility as a voter.".

Your Hate has clouded your mind... but it was already pretty overcast, you being an "ex" rwingnut yourself and all.

#66 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 05:56 PM | Reply

Oh, and "ex" Trump supporter, rofl!

#67 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-23 05:57 PM | Reply

If Hillary wins, it'll be because she's the greatest candidate ever.

If she loses, it'll be everybody but her campaign's fault.

#68 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-23 06:31 PM | Reply

If Trump wins it was because he is the most awesome candidate ever.

If he loses it will because of "Crooked" Hillary and the rigged elections.

#69 | Posted by donnerboy at 2016-09-23 06:50 PM | Reply

#69

That's how it will go.

#70 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-23 07:01 PM | Reply

But I understand that when NATO allies France and Britain backed out on their support for Libya and it went south, that meant it was ALL HILLARY'S FAULT ALL THE TIME to the simple-minded caricature believers. Obama not involved, NATO at no fault, no, just Hillary... it's amazing she had time she was so busy cutting Amb Stevens throat in this fantasy you have created for yourself... you know the one where she or State were responsible for security at that outpost... when it was a military responsibility all along.
#66 | POSTED BY CORKY

It's always someone else's fault at Team Hillary.

NATO, France, Britain, Russians, Trump, VRWC, h8ters, deplorables, racists, misogynists, myth-informed, commie-socialists, leftier-than-thous....

Clinton can't and won't take responsibility for anything. Expect more of the same if elected.

#71 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-23 07:17 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I'm thinking Trump will go where Bernie never dared to go.

#72 | Posted by nutcase at 2016-09-23 07:19 PM | Reply

The Dems and media have set the bar so low for Trump, that even if he looks slightly Presidential, he wins the debate. People have heard non stop attacks on how horrible of a person Trump is. What happens when he comes across as fairly Presidential? It is the nightmare scenario for Hillary. The "unfit for President" meme is the worst angle. 100 Million people will see him acting Presidential and then the game is over. They just need to see him be normal and then they can vote in good conscience.

Any poll right now is meaningless. It is all about momentum. If you can't see that Trump has a ton of momentum and enthusiasm from his supporters, then you are just a hack. Nobody is excited to vote for Hillary.

#75 | Posted by CaseyJones at 2016-09-23 10:35 PM | Reply

Nobody is excited to vote for Hillary.
#75 | POSTED BY CASEYJONES

That's just not true. all four of them are here and giddy.

#76 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-23 10:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Clinton can't and won't take responsibility for anything. Expect more of the same if elected.

#71 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM

She freely admits that her vote for the war in Iraq was a mistake. But I'm sure you will just ignore that since it doesn't fit your narrative.

Btw... What mistakes has Jill Stein taken responsibility for? Or are you just going to say she hasn't made mistakes (ie hasn't been in positions of real leadership where there is often no clear cut "right" answer)?

#77 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2016-09-23 11:27 PM | Reply

Drumpf owns TV in a manner similar to JFK.

I watched John F Kennedy on TV. I listened to John F Kennedy inspiring on TV.

Drumpf, sir, is no John F Kennedy.

Drumpf will implode during the debates if Hillary gets him riled up, which shouldn't be hard. Or the moderators make him actually answer their questions and not just babble the BS and cheap insults that made the GOPpers love him during the primaries.

#78 | Posted by northguy3 at 2016-09-24 12:41 AM | Reply

Clinton can't and won't take responsibility for anything. Expect more of the same if elected.
#71 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM

Ok. So let's contrast the two candidates:

Regarding the private email server:

In an interview with ABC News's David Muir which aired on Tuesday, the former secretary of state said: "That was a mistake. I'm sorry about that. I take responsibility."

Regarding the birther lies and slander of the Sitting President:

"President Barack Obama was born in the United States. Period," Trump said, ignoring reporters' questions despite earlier indications he would hold a press conference. "Now we all want to get back to making America strong and great again."

So Trump lied for 5 years and never admitted that was a mistake and then never apologized and then proceeded to blame his mistake on Hillary and has refused to take questions.

So I agree. Expect more of the same if elected.

#79 | Posted by donnerboy at 2016-09-24 11:14 AM | Reply

A vote for Stein is not a vote for Trump so it doesn't help Trump.

Only in fantasyland.

In the real world where either Hillary or Trump will win, and no one else has a chance, a vote not for Hillary helps Trump and a vote not for Trump helps Hillary.

#80 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 11:52 AM | Reply

Hence the reason we need to start pushing competition at the two party system.

When one party is nominating normal politicians and the other is nominating raving lunatics, it's stupidly dangerous to weaken both of those parties. The Democrats are the only thing keeping us from President Trump.

#81 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 11:56 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Drumpf owns TV in a manner similar to JFK."

Huh?

Trump is probably the worst politicians I've ever seen speak. And it's not just the message, it's the prose. I can't think of one time I've heard him speak and actually sound intelligent. He makes GWB look like a gifted speaker.

I'm far too young to have seen Kennedy speak in person, but he seems to have been good at it. So was Reagan, and Obama, and I actually think that Joe Biden is a really good speaker. But Trump has the unique ability to make everyone else into gifted orators.

#82 | Posted by madbomber at 2016-09-24 01:58 PM | Reply

He's the JFK of the jealous, angry, poorly educated crowd.

#83 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-24 02:00 PM | Reply

a vote not for Hillary helps Trump and a vote not for Trump helps Hillary.
#80 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2016-09-24 11:52 AM

So a vote not for both effectively results in a net gain of zero support for one over the other.

Makes sense.

#84 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-24 02:47 PM | Reply

So a vote not for both effectively results in a net gain of zero support for one over the other.

If you don't care about whether Hillary or Trump becomes president, sure.

But if you think one of them is a total disaster and the other isn't, you're throwing away your opportunity to stop a disaster.

#85 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 03:50 PM | Reply

Trump is probably the worst politicians I've ever seen speak. And it's not just the message, it's the prose. I can't think of one time I've heard him speak and actually sound intelligent. He makes GWB look like a gifted speaker.

He also reads a Teleprompter like an amateur.

#86 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 03:51 PM | Reply

But if you think one of them is a total disaster and the other isn't, you're throwing away your opportunity to stop a disaster.
#85 | POSTED BY RCADE

What...and subvert the will of the people? The idiots who can rally the most of their idiot base wins.

I'm not voting for either idiot and no informed person would. there's a referendum on both parties this year because of their lying idiot candidates.

Why further the agenda of either one by voting for them? Let the idiots choose an idiot.

#87 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-24 04:20 PM | Reply

In the real world where either Hillary or Trump will win, and no one else has a chance, a vote not for Hillary helps Trump and a vote not for Trump helps Hillary.

#80 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 11:52 AM | Reply

Nope. Sorry. Repeating the same nonsense over and over doesn't make it true.

Your own "logic" is contradictory. A vote for Stein is a vote for "not Trump" and a vote for "not Hillary". So do you actually believe that my vote for Stein will both harm and help Hillary and harm and help Trump? That could possible make sense on Bizzaro World but in the real world your logic fails under passing scrutiny. [...]

#88 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-24 04:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I like the gymnastics that third party voters go through to avoid admitting their vote helps Trump. It's like seeing Olga Korbut in her prime. I score your routine a 10.

#89 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 06:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

So do you actually believe that my vote for Stein will both harm and help Hillary and harm and help Trump?
#88 | POSTED BY SULLY AT 2016-09-24 04:58 PM

That's what he said in #80. lol

#90 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-24 06:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I like the gymnastics that third party voters go through to avoid admitting their vote helps Trump. It's like seeing Olga Korbut in her prime. I score your routine a 10.

#89 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 06:50 PM | Reply:

If you're going to proclaim that voting for someone who is not Hillary or Trump helps both Hillary and Trump, the burden of proof is on you. But the simple truth is that, because Trump and Clinton are opposing each other, a claim that a single vote could help both contradicts itself and therefore can't be substantiate.

You haven't attempted to substantiate this untenable proclamation in any way, but at least it would be entertaining if you tried. Telling me "I like how you're wrong" in response to an actual argument is unimpressive.

#91 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-24 07:19 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

There's a limit to how much hand-holding I'm willing to do for precocious third party voters. You might as well write in "Mickey Mouse" for all the good a Stein or Johnson vote will do -- unless you're trying to affect the outcome of the Hillary vs. Trump race, in which case you should just vote for one of them and make your actual desires official.

If Trump wins and you didn't vote for Hillary, you helped Trump win.

#92 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 07:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"If Trump wins and you didn't vote for Hillary, you helped Trump win."

That's simply not true. It's Hillary's responsibility to draw a following, energize her base, and lay out a grand vision for her campaign.

She's failing and left to chum waters, throw dung, and cry about people not supporting her...it's all Jill and Bernie's fault.

Those lefty progressive spoilers!

#93 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-24 08:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

It's Hillary's responsibility to draw a following, energize her base, and lay out a grand vision for her campaign.

Is it her job to give you a pony too, Princess Buttercup?

Be honest: There is nothing Hillary could say that would energize you. The position you've taken in this comment is a hoax. She could adopt the policies of Bernie Sanders 100% and you'd still be attacking her and helping Trump become president.

#94 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 08:28 PM | Reply

If Trump wins and you didn't vote for Hillary, you helped Trump win.

#92 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 07:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

You're repeating yourself without explaining how this unlikely phenomenon that totally isn't a figment of your imagination works. How does one's vote help Trump tally more votes than Clinton if it wasn't cast for Trump? Be specific.

Explaining your fantastical hypothesis wouldn't be hand-holding. The claim you are making defies the basic arithmetic involved in counting votes. You are attempting to discover a new field in mathematics. This is serious business.

#95 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-24 08:44 PM | Reply

If you think it's a "fantastical hypothesis" that the election is a two-candidate race, you are beyond the capacity of anyone to help.

#96 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 09:07 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1


If Trump wins and you didn't vote for Hillary, you helped Trump win.

Unfortunately, there will be more eligible voters who will not vote in the 2016 election than the total number of votes "taken" by either Gary Johnson or Jill Stein (combined).

I prefer to blame the non-voters than the tens of thousands who support third party efforts.

#97 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-24 09:12 PM | Reply

Unfortunately, there will be more eligible voters who will not vote in the 2016 election ...

People say this every four years. It's ------- stupid. No one posting here controls the fact that this country is full of a bunch of stupid ----- who don't vote. Unlike them, the people here follow politics and care. Even the Trump voters here are Albert ------- Einstein compared to those people. At least you care enough to show up and cast a vote to destroy everything good about this country. Those folks can't be bothered. I hope their -------- fall off and they don't notice because they had so little chance to use them.

#98 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 09:26 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Be honest: There is nothing Hillary could say that would energize you.
#94 | POSTED BY RCADE

True, and as a result I cannot cast my vote for her. The same is true for Trump.

So, since my vote goes to neither of them, that doesn't help or hurt either candidate.

#99 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-24 09:29 PM | Reply

You are helping Trump, Sheeple. If Trump wins you deserve a pat on the back. That shoves you in front of a bus.

Trump is a sphincter in human form.

#100 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 09:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Hear, hear Rcade! I love to read the high energy toward civic participation in our imperfect democracy. I agree from start to finish.

#101 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-24 09:33 PM | Reply

If you think it's a "fantastical hypothesis" that the election is a two-candidate race, you are beyond the capacity of anyone to help.

#96 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 09:07 PM | Reply

You're being evasive. You were asked a direct question in response to a specific claim you made:

How does a vote for someone who isn't Clinton or Trump aid Trump is defeating Clinton? Be specific.

#102 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-24 09:34 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

(For the record, #101 is in reference to #98...lol)

#103 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-24 09:35 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I think I've answered your question to the degree it deserved to be answered, you suppurating pustule. If you want decades of shame like that I feel as a Ross Perot voter, go ahead. I will be in the crowd laughing at you not with you.

#104 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 09:36 PM | Reply

(For the record, #104 is in reference to #102. ---- this is complicated.)

#105 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 09:38 PM | Reply

This beer is stronger than I thought it was.

#106 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 09:42 PM | Reply

I think I've answered your question to the degree it deserved to be answered, you suppurating pustule.

#104 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-24 09:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

Who are you fooling? You haven't answered the question because there is no logical answer.

#107 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-24 09:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

That shoves you in front of a bus.
#100 | POSTED BY RCadenTrump AT 2016-09-24 09:33 PM

Death jokes on other posters are cool again? Sweet!!

#108 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-24 09:45 PM | Reply

this country is full of a bunch of stupid -----

Tell us how you really feel! lol

#109 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2016-09-24 09:48 PM | Reply

Oh he's drunk? I thought maybe he has pneumonia.

Never mind then.

#110 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-24 09:54 PM | Reply

How does a vote for someone who isn't Clinton or Trump aid Trump is defeating Clinton? Be specific.

It's more about shaming you into voting for Clinton. You know that one of those who is going to win nobody else has a chance.

Why don't you pick which one of two people who has a chance of winning you'd hate the least and vote for that one.

If you really truly believe that Clinton is every bit as bad as Trump or maybe even worse then I'm just going to laugh at you.

#111 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-24 10:10 PM | Reply

You are helping Trump, Sheeple. If Trump wins you deserve a pat on the back. That shoves you in front of a bus.
Trump is a sphincter in human form.

#100 | POSTED BY RCADE

wow.

#112 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-24 10:13 PM | Reply

Sully, 538 Nader votes cost Gore Florida. Okay, not one voter but less than 1 in 10,000.

In fairness, I think Johnson will take more Republican votes than Stein will take.He pulled more than 2x as many votes as Stein did in 2012. So, in reality, all you Hillary haters demanding a third party are supporting Hillary.

As an interesting aside, going back to Ross Perot, who polled as high as 36% before ending up with 9% in 1992 3rd party candidates seem to poll about 3 to 4 times as high as they actually end up getting. Stein,from 2% to less than .4%, Johnson from 8% to less than 1%

#113 | Posted by northguy3 at 2016-09-24 10:55 PM | Reply

I think a lot of disaffected voters say in polls they are going to vote 3rd party but when Election Day comes they don't actually care enough to show up or figure their guy doesn't have a chance anyway so don't bother. Hence higher polls than vote totals.

Just a guess though, there is probably some who at the last moment decide that better to vote the lesser evil than someone who can't win anyway.

#114 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2016-09-24 11:03 PM | Reply

Who are you fooling? You haven't answered the question because there is no logical answer.

#107 | POSTED BY SULLY

Your stupid meme was answered by the links in #56 which you either didn't read or read and didn't understand. Neither of which would surprise anyone.

#115 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-25 01:33 AM | Reply

"Drumpf, sir, is no John F Kennedy"

Thank God! It took far too long to get rid of those scumbag Kennedys.

#116 | Posted by MildlyRetorted at 2016-09-25 03:05 AM | Reply

Everyone is going to miss Obama.

#117 | Posted by bored at 2016-09-25 04:41 AM | Reply

It depends what poll you read. All things considered its amazing how close the race is. All the money's on Hillary's side. The debate is likely to wipeout one or the other, without ever helping Americans make a reasoned choice, based on important issues.

Hillary supports free trade. Trump practices free trade.

Both intend to address terrorism by kicking ass militarily.

Both are serial liars.

2016 is the beginning of the end for the USA.

#118 | Posted by nutcase at 2016-09-25 09:25 AM | Reply

All the money's on Hillary's side.

No, all the media is on her side, lots and lots of money too but the MSM is so slanted Hillary it is pushing people to keep and open mind about Trump.

How I see it, Trump is purposely lying for effect/affect to spark reaction, Hillary does it because she thinks it will keep the stink off of her.

#119 | Posted by Crassus at 2016-09-25 09:41 AM | Reply

Trump practices free trade

No, Trump works within the laws that benefits him, Hillary violates the law to benefit her. At least Trump is saying the laws are messed up and need to be fixed.

#120 | Posted by Crassus at 2016-09-25 09:48 AM | Reply

#Sully, 538 Nader votes cost Gore Florida.

#113 | Posted by northguy3 at 2016-09-24 10:55 PM | Reply

Nader's votes weren't owed to Gore. What you're saying is absurd.

#121 | Posted by sully at 2016-09-25 11:03 AM | Reply

It's more about shaming you into voting for Clinton.

#111 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-24 10:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

I suggested that way up thread and I've was assured that isn't the case. But I suspect that you are right.

People who get self righteous about their failure to recognize Hillary for who she is are funny.

#122 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-25 11:08 AM | Reply

Your stupid meme was answered by the links in #56

#115 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-25 01:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

You're apparently too old to use the word "meme" correctly. Putting that aside, no you can't prove a factual claim such as "voting for Stein helps Trump" by linking to an opinion. You should be ashamed that the previous sentence was necessary.

Additionally, you had previously assured me that your claim was not based on the assumption that my vote is owed to Hillary, which is all that dope is blathering about.

Either you can explain the math behind what you're saying or you can't. And you can't.

#123 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-25 11:15 AM | Reply

Corky was telling us during the primaries that a vote for Bernie was a vote for Trump too.

figure that one out. haha.

#124 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-25 11:24 AM | Reply

#Sully, 538 Nader votes cost Gore Florida.
#113 | Posted by northguy3 at 2016-09-24 10:55 PM | Reply
Nader's votes weren't owed to Gore. What you're saying is absurd.
#121 | POSTED BY SULLY AT 2016-09-25 11:03 AM

Notice how the large number of Democrats who voted Bush never seem to take any heat for 2000?

Dems can do no wrong.

#125 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-25 02:29 PM | Reply

- linking to an opinion

Historical analysis that you obviously cannot refute.

Besides, our most famous Independent, Bernie Sanders, has already said you are nuts.

And he didn't even know you are an "ex" Trump Pet.

#126 | Posted by Corky at 2016-09-25 06:42 PM | Reply

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