Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Thursday, September 22, 2016

North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory has declared a state of emergency in the city of Charlotte after unrest continued for a second night sparked by the fatal police shooting on Tuesday of Keith Lamont Scott, 43, a black man who they say was armed and others claim was holding a book as he waited for his son to get off a school bus. Police used tear gas Wednesday night to disperse crowds. McCrory announced he was accepting a request from Charlotte's police chief, declaring a state of emergency and calling in the National Guard.

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Cops are more dangerous to Americans than ISIS.

#1 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-21 08:17 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

Shouldn't the lead be the man's death - a disabled father allegedly reading a book inside his car, waiting for his child to get home from school at 4pm in the afternoon according to his distraught family - at the hands of police under questionable circumstances instead of the regrettable rioting and looting in it's aftermath? The police claim seeing him holding a gun and reported recovering one at the scene after the shooting.

Under the circumstances of the events - undercover police were looking for another man to execute a warrant and merely observed the victim during a sweep-search through where he was thought to reside - at first blush it doesn't make much sense that the victim would be threatening a police officer unless he may not have perceived the also black plainclothesman was a LEO. This is the 6th person killed this year by local LEO but nothing justifies replying to one tragedy by creating others.

#2 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 08:27 AM | Reply

You're right...I got all my cop shootings tangled up thinking Scott's death had been posted.

#3 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-21 08:31 AM | Reply

I'm taking a knee this Sunday. That'll show 'em.

#4 | Posted by cookfish at 2016-09-21 09:00 AM | Reply | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 1

The officers considered the man to be "an imminent deadly threat to the officers who subsequently fired their weapon striking the subject," officials said.

Once again driven by the idea that anyone, anytime, with a gun is just itching to kill a cop.

#5 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-21 09:23 AM | Reply

I'm taking a knee this Sunday. That'll show 'em.

#4 | POSTED BY COOKFISH

You're correct in your sarcasm, Kaepernick should be out looting a Wal-Mart.

#6 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-21 09:25 AM | Reply

#5 Watching the news conference now. May I suggest you do so as well before making another ill informed post about the incident.

#7 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2016-09-21 09:37 AM | Reply

Police report gun was found but no book.

#8 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 09:46 AM | Reply

Yea Gracie, I'm sure the cops will be honest about what happened.

#9 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-21 09:51 AM | Reply

#8 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

The whole drama again is for naught, when are we going to get the narrative case? Its been 4yrs now, yet nothing, not once have SJW's delivered the situation you spell out in #1.

Why aren't you skeptical of claims and narratives of this nature, you seem intelligent, yet assume a glossy narrative before all the facts are in.

Yea Gracie, I'm sure the cops will be honest about what happened.
#9 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST

Certainly more honest than you.

#10 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-21 11:01 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

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#10
You blindly believe anything from authority? No you selectively believe.
The guy is sitting in his car . Was there any immediate threat to anybody? No. So why the rush to bring it to conclusion? The terrorist in NJ was shooting at police yet because they want to question him they got him alive. Think we need more Andy Taylors and less Judge dreeds

#11 | Posted by patron at 2016-09-21 11:20 AM | Reply

#9 The witnesses are backing up the police version of what happened.

#12 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2016-09-21 11:25 AM | Reply

In this case just like Tulsa no threat, bring in dogs, bean bag guns tasers why lethal as first resort.

#13 | Posted by patron at 2016-09-21 11:42 AM | Reply

Do the protestors really think looting is going to positively affect change in this country? Or is it just an excuse to get some free stuff?

The biggest gains for civil rights in this country came from nonviolent protest, not looting stores.

#14 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-21 11:58 AM | Reply

Looks like a bunch of domestic terrorists rallying behind some "cause." Bring in the drones.

#15 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-21 12:02 PM | Reply

Certainly more honest than you.

#10 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

I'm one of the most honest folks on this site. It's people like you who won't be honest with themselves about what the police are capable of and do every day.

#16 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-21 12:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

So, what is the point of busting into stores and taking off with the merchandise? Is that really gonna show those cops who is right?

#17 | Posted by Sniper at 2016-09-21 03:04 PM | Reply

In this case just like Tulsa no threat, bring in dogs, bean bag guns tasers why lethal as first resort.

#13 | Posted by patron

The guy had a gun in his hand, WTF would you do, stand up and say 'shoot me first so my buddies have time to get their bean bags'?

#18 | Posted by Sniper at 2016-09-21 03:08 PM | Reply

I'm one of the most honest folks on this site. It's people like you who won't be honest with themselves about what the police are capable of and do every day.

#16 | Posted by TFDNihilist

They are the only thing between you and people that want your stuff even at the expense of YOUR life.

#19 | Posted by Sniper at 2016-09-21 03:10 PM | Reply

The guy had a gun in his hand, WTF would you do, stand up and say 'shoot me first so my buddies have time to get their bean bags'?

#18 | Posted by Sniper

Oh having a gun in your hand is punishable by immediate execution without a trial now?

#20 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2016-09-21 03:12 PM | Reply

So, what is the point of busting into stores and taking off with the merchandise? Is that really gonna show those cops who is right?

#17 | Posted by Sniper

No that's saying to society: "You don't care about me, so I don't care about you."

#21 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2016-09-21 03:14 PM | Reply

Oh having a gun in your hand is punishable by immediate execution without a trial now?

#20 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

Yes it is ace. Tell me what you would do if a guy got out of a car with a gun in his hands and came towards you. Pee your pants? Maybe put some some brown smelly stuff in there while he shot you. You watch too much TV.

#22 | Posted by Sniper at 2016-09-21 04:58 PM | Reply

Tell me what you would do if a guy got out of a car with a gun in his hands and came towards you.

The only people who ever do that to me are cops.

#23 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 05:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Yes it is ace. Tell me what you would do if a guy got out of a car with a gun in his hands and came towards you.
#22 | Posted by Sniper

If I were a cop, I'd get my gun ready and point it at him. Whoever shoots first is the attempted murderer. The other one is the self-defender.

#24 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2016-09-21 05:33 PM | Reply

They are the only thing between you and people that want your stuff even at the expense of YOUR life.

#19 | POSTED BY SNIPER

Even if that were true, does that then give them license to lie and plant evidence? Does that give them license to kill who they want, or to treat anyone like a criminal?

#25 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-21 06:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#12

Really?

Local resident Taheshia Williams said she saw the incident from her balcony about 100 feet (30 meters) away, and that she watched Scott get out of his car with his hands raised.

"Hands up. No gun. When he got out of the car, a book fell off his lap," Williams told reporters on Wednesday. She said she heard Scott ask police what he had done wrong, could not hear their reply, but then heard four shots.

"It's a cover-up. They made a mistake and they're doing their best to make sure they cover up that mistake," she said.

www.huffingtonpost.com

#26 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 07:46 PM | Reply

Here is a photo of the gun after the shooting: twitter.com

I wonder if the police can tie it to the deceased?

#27 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 07:51 PM | Reply

#18 I agree with you Sniper, cops should immediately kill anyone carrying a gun in public, without consequences.

#28 | Posted by bored at 2016-09-21 09:43 PM | Reply

Ra-ra-ra, sis-boom-ba:

There was sporadic looting. Twitter messages showed that the team store of the Charlotte Hornets of the N.B.A. had been broken into and gutted of merchandise. "We are working very hard to bring peace and calm back to our city," Mayor Jennifer Roberts said on CNN.

www.nytimes.com

#29 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2016-09-21 11:19 PM | Reply

First they shoot and bomb us and now those darned muslims are rioting!!!

#30 | Posted by MSgt at 2016-09-21 11:20 PM | Reply

State of emergency declared in Charlotte.

#31 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2016-09-21 11:23 PM | Reply

Does it make a difference that Brentley Vinson, the officer who shot Scott, is himself black?

www.charlotteobserver.com

#32 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2016-09-21 11:38 PM | Reply

I'm one of the most honest folks on this site.
#16 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST

Of course you are.....

#33 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-21 11:42 PM | Reply

Whoever shoots first is the attempted murderer. The other one is the self-defender.
#24 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

But you are in a bodybag... hows that workin out for you?

#27 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

I am trying to follow your logic, the police confirm the picture, are you saying its a plant?

#34 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-21 11:45 PM | Reply

It's people like you who won't be honest with themselves about what the police are capable of and do every day.
#16 | Posted by TFDNihilist

Just because they are capable, doesn't mean they do it. I hold my government like Reagan did the Russians, "trust, but verify".

Again we hopefully still live in a system of laws and/or a presumption of innocence, or at least a thorough investigation.

What I see today in SocialMedia, on the DR, is a rush to judgement based upon little evidence or fact. Typically this turns out to be wrong or overstated. Yet those same people continue to make the same mistakes in judgment.

It is really odd to me there are those wanting a larger government, yet proclaim we can't trust the police.

#35 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-21 11:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Cops shouldn't even be carrying guns.

#36 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-22 12:00 AM | Reply

Images from violent Charlotte protests hit social media

www.usatoday.com

#37 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2016-09-22 12:17 AM | Reply

#BREAKING: Sources tell Channel 9 dash camera video shows #KeithScott getting out car, coming toward officers with gun in his hand pic.twitter.com/GGuM2Ow3wk -- WSOCTV (@wsoctv) September 21, 2016


#38 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-22 12:17 AM | Reply

Cops shouldn't even be carrying guns.
#33 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM

I kind of agree with this, I think the taser is pretty effective in close quarters.

#39 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-22 12:18 AM | Reply

BREAKING: Hornets confirm that the team store at the arena is being looted by protestors. pic.twitter.com/Q2QKfJDXaA -- WSOCTV (@wsoctv) September 22, 2016



heard they looted NASCAR HallOfFame too.....

#40 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-22 12:20 AM | Reply

Cops shouldn't even be carrying guns.

Most cops don't carry guns in England. I find that pretty amazing, having grown up in our gun-saturated culture.

#41 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-22 01:16 AM | Reply

Most cops don't carry guns in England. I find that pretty amazing, having grown up in our gun-saturated culture.

#37 | POSTED BY RCADE

"21 feet."

"Huh?"

"Ask Agent Hotchner, he's your gun-man."

"21 feet is the distance that an armed attacker can close on a person wielding a gun."

"Inside 21 feet, I win. Outside of 21 feet I have other options."

"Like negotiation."

"Like running."

That is paraphrased from memory from an episode of "Criminal Minds".

#42 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-22 01:25 AM | Reply

Oh having a gun in your hand is punishable by immediate execution without a trial now?

#20 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

If you brandished a gun against an armed civilian they would be legally justified in shooting you in the majority of states IIRC.

Let's not get so SJW on this topic that we begin acting as if brandishing a weapon isn't a justifiable reason to use lethal force in return.

#43 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 01:32 AM | Reply

The only people who ever do that to me are cops.

#23 | Posted by snoofy

WTF are you doing that cops approach your vehicle with weapons drawn?

#44 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 01:33 AM | Reply

#23 | Posted by snoofy
----
WTF are you doing that cops approach your vehicle with weapons drawn?

#40 | POSTED BY JPW

Viciously stabbing the American flag with a huge machete is my guess.

#45 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-22 01:35 AM | Reply

Jus' repahrations...

#46 | Posted by Greatamerican at 2016-09-22 01:35 AM | Reply

WTF are you doing that cops approach your vehicle with weapons drawn?

Gun in hand. Gun in holster. Standard procedure when approaching a vehicle that has broken the law.

#47 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 01:39 AM | Reply

Gun in hand. Gun in holster. Standard procedure when approaching a vehicle that has broken the law.

The quote was gun in hands, ie drawn and directed at a subject.

Unless that's what's actually happened to you (in which case my question stands) you're being a drama queen along with the two who newsworthy flagged you.

#48 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 01:46 AM | Reply

If you brandished a gun against an armed civilian they would be legally justified in shooting you in the majority of states IIRC.

In an open carry state like so many of them are now, at what point does brandishing actually occur?

Cops trained to be fear for their lives in an open carry society seems like a recipe for cops to shoot people even more.

I do not see a safe path forward, and I especially don't see how carrying a gun can make you safer when it makes you more of a threat in the eyes of a cop.

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 01:48 AM | Reply

gun in hands, ie drawn and directed at a subject.

I don't think so. Unless "Gun in hands" is some kind of term of art in the weapons realm that meaning gun aimed at a target. But you're right about singular vs. plural.

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 01:53 AM | Reply

In an open carry state like so many of them are now, at what point does brandishing actually occur?

A valid question.

IMO for a handgun, once it leaves the holster. For a long gun, once it's moved to a ready position for usage (not slung over shoulder or across the chest).

Not sure what the legal definitions are.

I do not see a safe path forward...

Me either.

Not sure why you're throwing out open carry issues with someone who's not an open carry advocate and who, nonetheless, sees open carry "protestors" as dangerous loons who do the 2nd amendment cause disservice.

#51 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 01:54 AM | Reply

Perhaps it's the police who are being drama queens when they approach cars with a hand on the gun.

If I were to approach a police car that way in an open carry state, do you think it would justify my getting shot by the police officer in the vehicle? After all I had a gun in my hand.

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 01:54 AM | Reply

IMO for a handgun, once it leaves the holster.

Just so we're 100% clear, you mean once a person removes it from the holster using a single hand or both hands.

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 01:56 AM | Reply

Perhaps it's the police who are being drama queens when they approach cars with a hand on the gun.

That seems to be standard operating procedure. Fact is, the police never truly know what they are up against when approaching a vehicle they just pulled over. Being prepared to draw a pistol, in case things quickly get out of control, is common sense.

#54 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-22 01:58 AM | Reply

Being prepared to draw a pistol, in case things quickly get out of control, is common sense.

So then it's likewise common sense for open carry people to keep a hand on their gun, since that's what "being prepared to draw" means, right?

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 02:00 AM | Reply

I don't think so. Unless "Gun in hands" is some kind of term of art in the weapons realm that meaning gun aimed at a target.

When I see the phrase "gun in hand" I think of a gun in the open at the ready. Hence why lethal force is justified in that case, because imminent lethal force against them is very possible.

Perhaps it's the police who are being drama queens when they approach cars with a hand on the gun.

I see nothing wrong with approaching a situation ready to react if necessary by having having a hand on the weapon. I would not be OK with cops approaching every car with the weapon drawn and pointed at the drive.

If I were to approach a police car that way in an open carry state, do you think it would justify my getting shot by the police officer in the vehicle? After all I had a gun in my hand.

If you approached a police car with the weapon out of the holster? Yes, it would justify being shot.

Just so we're 100% clear, you mean once a person removes it from the holster using a single hand or both hands.

What the hell does it matter? If it's leaving the holster or is completely out it's ok, IMO, to assume it's being drawn for a purpose.

#56 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 02:18 AM | Reply

So then it's likewise common sense for open carry people to keep a hand on their gun, since that's what "being prepared to draw" means, right?

Why do you keep going back to open carry? I could give a ---- and don't agree with it.

Christ, if that's all you got you're off your usual D game.

#57 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 02:19 AM | Reply

Why do you keep going back to open carry?

Because it's widespread, and it's legal in Charlotte.

#58 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 02:21 AM | Reply

If you approached a police car with the weapon out of the holster? Yes, it would justify being shot.

No, if I approached it exactly the way they approach mine, with hand on gun, gun in holster, with that side of your body shielded from view, and your gun ready to be drawn.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 02:22 AM | Reply

Because it's widespread, and it's legal in Charlotte.

Tell me, then, if you were open carrying and suddenly a bunch of cops showed up with weapons drawn telling you to "drop your gun" (holstered or not...) would you keep a hand on it?

#60 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 02:32 AM | Reply

No, if I approached it exactly the way they approach mine, with hand on gun, gun in holster, with that side of your body shielded from view, and your gun ready to be drawn.

I would say no, it wasn't a justifiable shooting.

Are you seriously arguing, though, that the circumstances of you approaching a cop car and a cop approaching a car at a traffic stop are the same?

Is just a SJW tantrum or are you drunk tonight?

Look, I've been quite harsh on cops on this very site in the past. But sometimes I think the anti-cop folks go straight up irrational with their views. You are currently going straight up irrational, snoofy.

#61 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 02:34 AM | Reply

Are you seriously arguing, though, that the circumstances of you approaching a cop car and a cop approaching a car at a traffic stop are the same? - JPW

I drive about 30,000 miles per year. I've witnessed my share of pull-overs, and although I it's been about 5 years, I've been pulled over a few times. I've noticed a behavioral pattern among police when they are approaching a car and it's almost always the same - which includes having a hand on their pistol. This suggests standardized training.

To answer your question (even though it wasn't addressed to me), of course the 2 situations aren't the same. Perhaps Snoofy sees it differently.

#62 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-22 02:47 AM | Reply

This suggests standardized training.

I've had the same experience and I'm quite certain it's standardized training. What I also noticed was that once they arrived at my window and saw my keys on the dash and my hands on the wheel they never set their hand on their weapon again.

That snoofy expects cops to approach an unknown situation haphazardly because it upsets his poor little SJW feelings is asinine. Snoofy knows he doesn't mean any harm but the cop doesn't.

#63 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 03:09 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

If my gun is in holster and they told me to drop it I would necessarily have to put my hand on it and remove it from The holster in order to drop it at which point I would probably be justifiably gunned down.

And I wouldn't be the first.

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 03:12 AM | Reply

If my gun is in holster...

You keep your hands on your head and you lie down face first.

And I wouldn't be the first.

Link?

#65 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 03:19 AM | Reply

You're asking for a link to the police shot someone who was in possession of a gun and they asked him to put it down?

#66 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 04:56 AM | Reply

Will this do?
dailycaller.com

I mean, it's not at all an uncommon occurrence that the police order someone to drop a gun, and when all is said and done, that person is shot.

So I'm not sure why you asked for a link, but there you go.

#67 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 04:59 AM | Reply

That snoofy expects cops to approach an unknown situation haphazardly

I never made that suggestion or have that expectation.

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 05:00 AM | Reply

However, if what the cops do with their guns is not okay for the civilians to do, at least in open carry states, then there's a major problem. Because every moment of your life is an unknown situation.

#69 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 05:01 AM | Reply

What I also noticed was that once they arrived at my window and saw my keys on the dash and my hands on the wheel they never set their hand on their weapon again.

I also noticed the officer had his hand on the weapon for most of the interview myself and my two riders were ordered out of the car to conduct.

I should say my interview because after my interview was over he told me to go stand over there while he interviewed the other guys and I wasn't watching him like a hawk at that point.

#70 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 05:20 AM | Reply

The stupid posted on this thread in the past few hours is astounding. To equate civilian self defense carry with law enforcement self defense carry exhibits the height of complete, total and utter ignorance of all things self defense related. For God's sake go take a class. For that is your only salvation, it cannot come from anything anyone on this forum can say, type, write, post or link.

#71 | Posted by et_al at 2016-09-22 06:28 AM | Reply

I'll be connecting through Charlotte tonight, on my way to Ft Myers.

#72 | Posted by nutcase at 2016-09-22 11:16 AM | Reply

#72

I wouldn't go downtown after dark. This is not over yet.

#73 | Posted by donnerboy at 2016-09-22 11:29 AM | Reply

Why is self defense different from self defense, Et_Al?

#74 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 12:53 PM | Reply

Eyewitness to #KeithLamontScott Shooting: ‘The Officer That Shot That Man Was White'

Despite claims by the Charlotte-Mecklenburg (N.C.) Police Department that Keith Lamont Scott, 43, was armed with a gun when black Police Officer Brentley Vinson shot him to death, eyewitness Taheshia Williams maintains that Scott was armed with nothing but a book and that a white police officer is responsible for killing Scott.

#75 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-22 01:00 PM | Reply

Takeshia Williams should be charged with inciting a riot and be sent to jail. Actions have consequences.

#76 | Posted by bogey1355 at 2016-09-22 02:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#76

www.wcnc.com

Do you see a black cop in this photo or do you see a bald white officer? She isn't the only witness making the same claims btw.

More importantly, she doesn't say a single word that would incite violence or advocate a violent response. She's telling what she believed she saw with her own eyes. The only crime at the scene was the death of Mr. Scott waiting for his child to get home as he does every single day. He didn't go looking for police nor was he committing any crime. It started and ended with the perceptions of and then the actions and reactions of the police. The police chief admits the videos don't show Scott pointing the gun at the officers.

#77 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-22 02:46 PM | Reply

75 - Did she hear someone yell hands up don't shoot too? Seems like eye witnesses these days are not particularly reliable. Or maybe they just have an agenda

#78 | Posted by homerj at 2016-09-22 02:48 PM | Reply

Seems like eye witnesses these days are not particularly reliable. Or maybe they just have an agenda
#78 | POSTED BY HOMERJ

These days? They have never been particularly reliable. Nothing has changed, not even the old people's misperception that young people are nothing but useless --------.

#79 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-22 02:56 PM | Reply

Takeshia Williams should be charged with inciting a riot and be sent to jail. Actions have consequences.
#76 | POSTED BY BOGEY1355

HAHA! Blame the messenger. Sweet of you, BOGEY.

#80 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-22 02:57 PM | Reply

"Did she hear someone yell hands up don't shoot?"

No, it was actually "Pants up, don't loot"

#81 | Posted by CaseyJones at 2016-09-22 03:06 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Takeshia Williams should be charged with inciting a riot and be sent to jail. Actions have consequences.

#76 | Posted by bogey1355 at 2016-09-22 02:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Tell it to the 1st Ammendment, commie.

#82 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-22 03:34 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#77 so one must wait until a gun is pointed at you before reacting? Are you daft?

#83 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-22 06:16 PM | Reply

#77 so one must wait until a gun is pointed at you before reacting? Are you daft?

I tried to go down this road with you.
Wanna go again?
It's an open carry state.
At what point does open carry place your life in danger if a cop sees you do it?
Let's say this guy did actually have a gun, and it was in his hand, and it wasn't in a holster, but it also wasn't pointed at anyone. Fire at will?
You tell me when fire at will is the right move.

#84 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 06:31 PM | Reply

They are going to show the video to the family only, not the public, out of respect. However, if the family lies about what is in the video, then the video should be made public.

If the video supports the police, the family should demand the rioters stop.
If the video shows the police are wrong, the family should demand the rioters stop, and let the case go to court.

#85 | Posted by Petrous at 2016-09-22 06:49 PM | Reply

It's an open carry state.

From what I have read open carry is different in each state, holstered or not...

But holster seems best way to avoid that and any undue attention from law enforcement, just because you have a right doesn't mean its a good idea. Why push it?

At what point does open carry place your life in danger if a cop sees you do it?

Is the person carrying the weapon in a non-threatening and orderly manner. Say, like a soldier, or is the person menacing flailing it about, without pointing it at anyone, probably that line.

Let's say this guy did actually have a gun, and it was in his hand, and it wasn't in a holster, but it also wasn't pointed at anyone.

Like this? This was from last night as well, it is orderly. Should he have been shot? IDK...
i.dailymail.co.uk

#86 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-22 06:57 PM | Reply

Like this? This was from last night as well, it is orderly. Should he have been shot? IDK...

You don't know?
What would be the reason to shoot him?
For pointing a gun at the pavement?

#87 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-22 07:03 PM | Reply

If the video supports the police, the family should demand the rioters stop.

The family has denounced violent responses from minute one. Haven't you been listening?

Rioters are just that, and the family's words aren't going to stop them. They should be arrested and held accountable for their actions.

People only utilizing their 1st Amendment rights to protest should be able to do so peaceably as long as they aren't compromising public safety.

#88 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-22 07:19 PM | Reply

As the story plays out, Takeshi a Williams will be found to have been a bald face lair. For what ever reason, she was trying to fans the flames based on a lie. She should have to pay a price for doing so.

On a side note. Just got back from the airport picking up a friend coming from Atlanta. He asked me what was going on with some riot. I told him about the debacle. He said his plane was full of people claiming to have flown in for the festivities and they were hooting and hollering and bragging about what they got away with.

Wouldn't have thought the poor and down trodde would have the money for last minute tickets.

#89 | Posted by bogey1355 at 2016-09-22 08:29 PM | Reply

On a side note.

With yet another valueless anecdote. You have one for every occasion, don't you?

#90 | Posted by REDIAL at 2016-09-22 08:40 PM | Reply

These barbarians partaking in this latest melee are nothing but a bunch of thugs looking for an excuse to loot and riot! How could anyone but an idiot ever respect these people! I have no respect for them and they deserve all the misery their brainless barbaric actions bring upon themselves! These people should be treated like an invading army not as so called US citizens!

#91 | Posted by dougluvsgolf at 2016-09-22 09:01 PM | Reply

#91

It's quite telling that you appear to be more upset about looting and rioting that in the end cost nothing but money than you are about the actual death of a father of 7 who was minding his own business waiting for his child to get off the school bus before the police dropped into his lap.

#92 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-22 09:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

You're asking for a link to the police shot someone who was in possession of a gun and they asked him to put it down?

You said the gun was in a holster.

If you can't be intellectually honest about your own statements how can you expect others to assume you're being intellectually honest whenever you post?

#93 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 12:19 AM | Reply

You said the gun was in a holster.

It wasn't?
What ever.
You think the shooting was good?

#94 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 12:21 AM | Reply

The crux of my scenario is the police would tell me to handle my weapon, then shoot me because I'm handing a weapon. Then get away with it.

The holster is a holdover from the fact that open carry seems to necessitate one, though I'd like to see where that's legislated.

#95 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 12:23 AM | Reply

Let's say this guy did actually have a gun, and it was in his hand, and it wasn't in a holster, but it also wasn't pointed at anyone. Fire at will?

If you've never been around the gun culture you won't understand. I suspect you don't want to understand either.

There are ways of conducting yourself when you are in possession of a weapon. Take for instance when you go into a gun range to shoot targets. When you walk in, the gun is either holstered or in a case, preferably unloaded and with the action open. You only remove the gun from the holster/case when and if you need to prior to getting to the firing line and, if you do, you keep it always pointed at the floor and unloaded.

If you walked into the lobby of a firing range with a gun in your hand and the action closed, you will be treated with hostility because no one in that room will assume you're not a threat. Will they shoot you on sight? No. But you'll likely get your ass kicked out for being an irresponsible dumbass and you'll see the employee's hands move to their holstered weapons.

There are protocols and etiquette to possessing firearms and waving around a loaded weapon in public isn't one of them.

#96 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 12:26 AM | Reply

I can see why you think it's dishonest that I editorialized Sniper's comment about being approached with a gun to the only times I've ever been approached by a person ready to use a weapon on me.

I don't think it's dishonest since those are effectively the same scenario, I just flipped the script. Finally, there was ambiguity in the gun actually having the scary end pointing at anything. You got me on "hands" though. Die in a fire.

#97 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 12:29 AM | Reply

If you've never been around the gun culture you won't understand.

You don't know me.

#98 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 12:30 AM | Reply

There are protocols and etiquette to possessing firearms and waving around a loaded weapon in public isn't one of them.

You know I was in the bar one night and this guy was being a ----. Like, just aggressive sexual comments to womeon we were with, uncouth. He flashed a gun tucked into his waisstband to back up how much of a badass he was. Eventually he wandered off.

(Having a gun in your waistband in a bar in Washingon State is a big no-no and could conceivlably get the bar shut down, if that helps paint this picture.)

As I said, eventually he wandered off.

Do you think a better outcome would have been that, had some undercover police offer been unbeknownst next to us, seen him flash it, and gun him down? I don't. I'd be surprised if you do. But it seems like that's what the police think they're supposed to do, or what they choose to do to black men, or however you want to call it.

Largely this is a training issue, and not much is said about that. Then, there's the fact that so much of the training itself is because of the war on drugs. And many of the tactics are novel, created to fight the war on drugs. The state has charted significant new ground into the erosion of liberty via police powers and now surveillance powers that can feed data to the police police wouldn't otherwise be able to obtain.

Waging a war on our own drug using population is the reason these shooting happen. And it could get a whole lot worse. It's legal for it to get a whole lot worse.

#99 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 12:40 AM | Reply

You think the shooting was good?

At this moment, I don't know.

If he really did have a gun in his hand and refused to drop it then he acted rather stupidly and, yes, unfortunately I think that the shooting is good in that scenario.

The crux of my scenario is the police would tell me to handle my weapon, then shoot me because I'm handing a weapon. Then get away with it.

The crux of your strawman, you mean. Still links on this particular scenario playing out?

The holster is a holdover from the fact that open carry seems to necessitate one, though I'd like to see where that's legislated.

nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu

That's the best I could access. The NC statute site failed to load.

In the gun world, if you have a hand gun out side of the holster in public the assumption is it's out because you intend to use it. When carrying for defense, concealed or otherwise, you only draw a weapon when you need to. Period.

#100 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 12:44 AM | Reply

You don't know me.

#98 | Posted by snoofy

Your ignorance screams inexperience. Sue me.

#101 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 12:44 AM | Reply

How about the part where it makes its own gravy?
The cops ordered him to retrieve the weapon.
They created the threat.
No?

#102 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 12:45 AM | Reply

Do you think a better outcome would have been that, had some undercover police offer been unbeknownst next to us, seen him flash it, and gun him down? I don't. I'd be surprised if you do.

So long as it stayed in the waste band? No. But I bet an undercover cop in that bar would have drawn if that jackass had drawn his.

Drawing a weapon implies intent.

But it seems like that's what the police think they're supposed to do, or what they choose to do to black men, or however you want to call it.

If you're in a confrontation with police and reach for a weapon you will get shot. Do you think officers should wait until the gun clears the waste band or holster? Until it's being raised? Until it's pointed at them? When exactly do you think it becomes appropriate for an officer to shoot an armed person?

And for the record, I've been more than skeptical in the past about officer shootings that were justified with "he reached for his waste band" in the absence of a verified weapon. Simply reaching for your waste band isn't an action that justifies lethal force. Reaching for a weapon is.

#103 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 12:51 AM | Reply

The cops ordered him to retrieve the weapon.
They created the threat.
No?

In this case? What case?

#104 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 12:52 AM | Reply

:If you're in a confrontation with police and reach for a weapon you will get shot. Do you think officers should wait until the gun clears the waste band or holster? Until it's being raised? Until it's pointed at them? When exactly do you think it becomes appropriate for an officer to shoot an armed person?

#103 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2016-09-23 12:51 AM | REPLY

I've asked a more binary and simple version of that question and it was met with crickets.

Don't expect anyone to answer your question.

#105 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-23 01:05 AM | Reply

When exactly do you think it becomes appropriate for an officer to shoot an armed person?

The answer is:

When the officer feels threatened, or perceives a threat to public safety, that's when policy says it's okay for the officer to use deadly force. (Feel free to sprinkle a few "grievous" or "imminents" on those threats if it helps the medicine go down.)

(Afterwards, along with the rest of the paperwork and the paid administrative leave, we might review the legitimacy of the threat, as circumstances dictate.)

Tell me if I'm wrong.

#106 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 01:11 AM | Reply

Tell me if I'm wrong.

I was asking for you personal opinion.

If a guy in the street with a handgun in the open, in his hand isn't deemed threatening enough for deadly force then what line does that guy have to cross to qualify in YOUR opinion?

No snide answers, sarcasm, deflecting questions or infinite parsing please. Just your honest answer as to when an armed person represents enough of a threat to justify deadly force.

#107 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 01:18 AM | Reply

Tell me if I'm wrong.

#106 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

You're wrong. ;-)

*kidding*

#108 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-23 01:18 AM | Reply

I was asking for you personal opinion.
If a guy in the street with a handgun in the open, in his hand isn't deemed threatening enough for deadly force then what line does that guy have to cross to qualify in YOUR opinion?
No snide answers, sarcasm, deflecting questions or infinite parsing please. Just your honest answer as to when an armed person represents enough of a threat to justify deadly force.

#107 | POSTED BY JPW

If he's holding a chimney starter, a couple of sheets of newspaper, a matchbook and a bag of charcoal, he gets a pass. If I see a container of lighter fluid, I shoot to kill!

#109 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-23 01:20 AM | Reply

Don't expect anyone to answer your question.

I don't expect it.

I stopped expecting rational thought on this topic when someone made the comment above along the lines of "oh so now having a gun in your hand is justification for execution without trial".

Unfortunately I think a real and significant issue is being buried in people's propensity for raising hell over any incident now in which a black man is shot by a cop. Because it's getting so reflexive that even a case where a civilian would be justified in using deadly force is met with protests, rioting and asinine comments insinuating excessive force.

#110 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 01:22 AM | Reply

If I see a container of lighter fluid, I shoot to kill!

Your inattention to detail is going to get you killed, rook.

Is the charcoal easy start or lump?

#111 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 01:24 AM | Reply

If a guy in the street with a handgun in the open, in his hand isn't deemed threatening enough for deadly force then what line does that guy have to cross to qualify in YOUR opinion?

I need more. Why am I there? Am I a cop? Am I there because the lady inside the Motorola said "all units, man with scary gun even though we're an open carry state" or was I just passing through?

#112 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 01:24 AM | Reply

Your inattention to detail is going to get you killed, rook.
Is the charcoal easy start or lump?

#111 | POSTED BY JPW

Never, ever buy easy start.

Lump is incredibly volatile - what you get bag-to-bag varies greatly.

Kingsford Original is consistent and predictable and it burns at lower temps than lump and is easier to control for low/slow.

Having said that, lump is great for hotter, shorter cooks. Lump can be used for low/slow but it needs to be a top-flight brand.

Memorial Day and Labor Day Home Depot and Lowe's sell 2-packs (18.5 pounds per bag) of Kingsford for $9.98 per 2-pack.

A partially lit chimney of Kingsford with a fist-sized chunk of hickory/pecan/apple-wood produces great smoke flavor in just about any charcoal cooker.

It also works very well for a simple weeknight dinner of burgers and grilled corn on the cob.

#113 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-23 01:32 AM | Reply

I really don't see how you can reconcile open carry with the lethal threat the police are trained to seek out and respond to.
All the police have to do is see something they think is is gun and they still don't lose their jobs when they kill the wrong person.
If you or I accidentally killed someone we mistakenly thought was a threat at work, but wasn't, that would probably be a resume generating event.
It's almost like the job of the police is to kill lethal threats. Does anybody think that's actually an apt description for police work?
It's irreconcilable for the police to be charged with killing lethal threats when it's legal to openly carry a lethal weapon.

#114 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 01:34 AM | Reply

Never, ever buy easy start.

I think it tastes better.

#115 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 01:37 AM | Reply

I need more. Why am I there? Am I a cop? Am I there because the lady inside the Motorola said "all units, man with scary gun even though we're an open carry state" or was I just passing through?

#112 | Posted by snoofy

Never mind. I don't know why I continually expect rational conversation from you.

#116 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 01:38 AM | Reply

I think it tastes better.

#115 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Eeeeesh!!!

#117 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-23 01:39 AM | Reply

I'm out.

Later, all.

#118 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-23 01:40 AM | Reply

Asking questions is a highly rational act.

If a guy is just standing there with a gun, he would have to point it at me or someone else before I can find justification for shooting him down before he could pull the trigger.

#119 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 01:40 AM | Reply

Eeeeesh!!!

Got you back.

#120 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 01:40 AM | Reply

Lump is incredibly volatile - what you get bag-to-bag varies greatly.

I inherited a giant bag of lump and two bags of Kingsford from a coworker who was moving on to a new job.

I was shocked at how hot the lump burned and how quickly it was ash. Unfortunately those ribs were anything but low and slow.

A partially lit chimney of Kingsford with a fist-sized chunk of hickory/pecan/apple-wood produces great smoke flavor in just about any charcoal cooker.

I've been dialing in how much per chimney of Kingsford to use for the right temp since controlling temp with vents is hit or miss on the el cheapo smoker I have. So I guess it must be consistent enough for repeated measurements giving linear results.

Weather is turning here this weekend. I gotta get some time hashed out to smoke one or two final things before calling it quits this year. One thing will definitely be Goatman's famous chili recipe. Damn that ---- is good.

#121 | Posted by jpw at 2016-09-23 01:41 AM | Reply

Jeff, been meaning to tell you the smoked pulled chuck po-boys (with the drippings for dipping) and tacos turned out incredible. Thanks again.

#122 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-23 01:48 AM | Reply

One thing will definitely be Goatman's famous chili recipe. Damn that ---- is good.
#121 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2016-09-23 01:41 AM

That's in the rotation here as well. Put it on all day, throw a rope sausage around the kettle for snacking until the chili's done for dinner.

Doesn't get much better.

#123 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-23 01:53 AM | Reply

I was shocked at how hot the lump burned and how quickly it was ash.

Yes - I came back for a cameo. :-)

Good lump burns really hot, really clean and doesn't leave much ash.

The operative phrase is "good lump".

I've been dialing in how much per chimney of Kingsford to use for the right temp since controlling temp with vents is hit or miss on the el cheapo smoker I have. So I guess it must be consistent enough for repeated measurements giving linear results.

So many variables factor in. I will say that Kingsford Original is great for low/slow - it lasts and it's predictable.

Goatman's famous chili recipe

That pic of his chili in that cauldron hung from a tripod over a live fire....Damn!

Jeff, been meaning to tell you the smoked pulled chuck po-boys (with the drippings for dipping) and tacos turned out incredible. Thanks again.

#122 | POSTED BY LIVE_OR_DIE

That is great to hear. Like I said, smoked chuck roast is easily the most under-rated meat in all of 'Que. Great stuff!

That's in the rotation here as well. Put it on all day, throw a rope sausage around the kettle for snacking until the chili's done for dinner.

That is Nirvana. Maximizing cooker space is a fun, creative and delicious exercise.

#124 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-23 02:13 AM | Reply

Maximizing cooker space is a fun, creative and delicious exercise.
#124 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2016-09-23 02:13 AM

Finding space for appetizers on the smoker is a must here, no full meals until the main course is ready! Which is usually way later than I tell everyone, of course. =)

#125 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-23 02:29 AM | Reply

A great appetizer while waiting for one of Goatman's or JeffJ's slow cooks to finish, very low roast pork belly in parchment paper and foil to render out some fat, let cool, cube it and marinate in herbs (I use cilantro, parsely, basil), garlic, chilis, and an oil and wine vinegar base, skewer and grill until crispy. Serve with heated marinade for dipping. Like super bacon.

#126 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2016-09-23 02:35 AM | Reply

Seems I actually agree with ET_AL on this one. There was a lot of stupid speculation on this thread. Especially if/when we find out there was no gun.

#127 | Posted by donnerboy at 2016-09-23 01:15 PM | Reply

The video from the wife's cell phone is going to fuel this debate even more.
The cops are yelling "put the gun down" and the wife says "he doesn't have a gun."
After he's shot there's no gun near him like in the photo the police released.
and then...
the officer standing over him throws something on the ground near the body that is what the police have been highlighting in the photo they've distributed as "the gun."

Watching this video over and over again it's hard to come to any other conclusion other than the cops planted the gun.
Maybe the video the police are refusing to release can end the speculation?

Watching this video is horrible and painful.

#128 | Posted by YAV at 2016-09-23 01:20 PM | Reply

Here's a link to the video.
www.nbcnews.com

#129 | Posted by YAV at 2016-09-23 01:23 PM | Reply

it might be possible the cop got whatever it was from Lamont and was holding it, then threw it on the ground?
Still don't get why he'd literally throw it down, though. Not unless he was sure it wasn't loaded. Even then I'd never throw a gun on to the pavement like that.

#130 | Posted by YAV at 2016-09-23 01:28 PM | Reply

frame by frame being done - and the speculation is the object thrown to the ground is a glove.
The location appears to be the same as in the photo the police released the other day 'hinting at' a gun.

#131 | Posted by YAV at 2016-09-23 01:41 PM | Reply

Here is a news item that has been out for a few hours. 70% of the "protesters" arrested aren't from Charlotte or even North Carolina. Seems that someone has paid for buses to bring in professional protesters/rioters. I wonder who? Maybe George Soros? He has funded BLM through the "Open Society" organization sense it's inception. He is the largest supporter of the NAACP by far.
The dash cam tapes have been released now and it clearly show Scott pointing a gun at the officers. The same man spent time in the Texas correction system for shooting at two cops in San Antonio, He got out on 2011.
Remember George Soros central mantra "Profits through chaos". If he believes that encouraging violence in NC will improve HRC's prospects, he is sadly mistaken. The white backlash will be epic. The primary people to suffer will be innocent black people who had nothing to do with the riots or the looting. But George who very likely organized this behind the curtain will not have to worry, he is above the law.

#132 | Posted by docnjo at 2016-09-23 06:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The dash cam tapes have been released

Where? News doesn't have them I'm in NC and none of our stations have it.

#133 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2016-09-23 06:14 PM | Reply

I wonder who? Maybe George Soros?

Maybe Trump.

#134 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-23 06:23 PM | Reply

Now possibly a conspiracy.

#135 | Posted by fresno500 at 2016-09-23 09:23 PM | Reply

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