Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, September 20, 2016

A Tulsa Police official confirmed to the Tulsa World Tuesday afternoon that officers found PCP in the vehicle used by Terence Crutcher the night he was fatally shot by police. Homicide Sgt. Dave Walker declined to say where in the vehicle investigators recovered the vial of PCP, nor did he say whether officers determined Crutcher, 40, used it Friday night, when he was fatally shot by Officer Betty Shelby. Shelby's attorney, Scott Wood, claims she fired because Crutcher reached into the vehicle. Wood said Monday that Shelby's drug recognition expert training led her to believe Crutcher had been exhibiting signs of being under the influence of PCP. Crutcher family attorney Benjamin Crump called that "misinformation," saying that video showed the vehicle's window was not open.

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Crump told Tulsa World that even if Crutcher had used PCP that night, it still didn't justify the use of lethal force. "If we started to condemn everybody to death just because they have drugs in their system, all our neighborhoods would be empty," he said.

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Makes sense based on her reactions but that still doesn't justify the shooting, particularly since Crutcher's driver-door window was up and can be seen with his blood on it after the shooting. It is not a capital offense to be high or impaired on drugs. There is no drug-crazed wild animal in the videos seeking to harm the police who are attempting, I guess, to arrest him. As the attorney says above, "If we started to condemn everybody to death just because they have drugs in their system, all our neighborhoods would be empty," he said.

#1 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-20 09:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

After watching the video, I thought he might have been mentally ill or a moron. That's a lot of cops to try to walk away from.

When I was a kid, I knew a teen who did some PCP, thought he was Plastic-Man, and was picked up by police trying to slip under the door of convenience store.

#2 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2016-09-20 09:14 PM | Reply

Didn't take long to come up with that. So now she was afraid cause he was high. She was afraid because she's too small and her only equalizer is a gun.

#3 | Posted by patron at 2016-09-20 09:18 PM | Reply

We will have to wait for the tox screen.

Explains his behavior, why his car was parked where it was, but doesn't justify the shooting.

#4 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-20 09:22 PM | Reply

#3 The guy is walking around his car with his hands up, turns his back on the cops, then tries to get back in the car. The mistake here is that one cop used a gun instead of a taser like the other one did.

#5 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2016-09-20 09:23 PM | Reply

This guy wasn't the first person do die on PCP and won't be the last. It makes you do crazy sheet. I'm sure the cops didn't want to shoot him. He must have done something stupid and looked like a threat.

#6 | Posted by mysterytoy at 2016-09-20 09:29 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

I wonder what Kap will have to say, if this guy is found to have PCP in his system. Or for that matter TonyRoma

Reports I read said he thought the SUV was going to blow up, that it was a bomb. The officer reported it abandoned when she came upon it.

Explains his behavior, why his car was parked where it was, but doesn't justify the shooting.

#4 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Define "justify", I mean two police officers shot within seconds of each other. They must have seen something that made them uncomfortable.

Finally..

Was the helicopter guy wrong?

#7 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-20 09:36 PM | Reply

The helicopter didn't have a clear view of the final seconds. The vic had lowered his hands and was hidden by the van from the perspective of the helicopter.

#8 | Posted by mysterytoy at 2016-09-20 09:39 PM | Reply

Wood said Monday that Shelby's drug recognition expert training led her to believe Crutcher had been exhibiting signs of being under the influence of PCP.

War on Drugs.
Selectively targeting blacks since 1971.

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 09:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

He couldn't have been a threat. She was the first on scene, he didn't do anything to her when she was by herself. He does not appear aggressive. Yeah he's walking away, probably got tired of answering a bunch of stupid questions.I can just imagine I've been stopped by female cops, they're the worst,

#10 | Posted by patron at 2016-09-20 09:43 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The mistake here is that one cop used a gun instead of a taser like the other one did.

Yeah, they both should have used guns.
That would have helped the "fear of my life" sob story cops always trot out.
When one used a taser it kind of makes that story a tiny bit more difficult to swallow.

(Except of course for the people like you who are eager to lap up anything the police say.)

#11 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 09:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#11 You grew up sheltered. You have no idea how much I hate cops for everything they put me and my brother through.

#12 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2016-09-20 09:46 PM | Reply

It is not a capital offense to be high or impaired on drugs. - TR

No its not, but being an ------- might get you shot.

#13 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-20 09:49 PM | Reply

#11 As someone who's privileged, I'd expect you to say something like that, too. You never had to learn cop etiquette in order to stay out of jail.

#14 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2016-09-20 09:49 PM | Reply

Selectively targeting blacks since 1971.

#9 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Not unlike open borders.

#15 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-20 09:50 PM | Reply

Not unlike open borders.

Open borders, where are those?
I live ten minutes from the border, it doesn't seem open to me.

#16 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 10:04 PM | Reply

#16 Dude, 70% of America's illegal drugs cross the US-Mexico border. How is that not open?

Or did you mean you live next to the US-Canada border?

#17 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2016-09-20 10:42 PM | Reply

It was too late for the cops to plant a gun on him, so this is the next best thing.

I smell fish.

#18 | Posted by morris at 2016-09-20 11:05 PM | Reply

No its not, but being an ------- might get you shot.

#13 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

You don't see a problem with that? Have you ever experienced a situation involving a mentally ill person? A layman might describe the actions, behavior, and attitude of a mentally ill person as nothing other than an "-------". Shouldn't that be taken into consideration when approaching a scene and starting an initial investigation? Being an ------- justifies being shot and killed by police? You're okay with this? Excuse my projection, MACKRIS, but this does not logically add up. Please help me understand your POV.

#19 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-20 11:23 PM | Reply

70% of America's illegal drugs cross the US-Mexico border. How is that not open?
---------------
Considering the drug traffic from Mexico has dipped dramatically since CA and other states legalized medical and recreational marijuana, those getting serious drugs across the border are doing so through more exhaustive and limited means than ever before. Means other than building a giant wall negatively affect drug cartels more efficiently and ultimately the drugs cartels will be relegated to the sideline when and if all drugs are legalized ... so the "we have open borders simply based on the amount of illegal drugs that are transferred across Mexican border" could be eliminated with the mitigation/out right elimination of the War on Drugs.

#20 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-20 11:31 PM | Reply

#16 Dude, 70% of America's illegal drugs cross the US-Mexico border. How is that not open?

Well, probably the same way Mexico is our #1 trading partner, but there's still a line to get from one country to the other.

If you want open borders visit Europe.
Or travel between any US state, they have open borders.
The US and Mexico... not so much.

#21 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 11:34 PM | Reply

Spot on SNOOF.

#23 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-20 11:38 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

A recent experiment/study showed cops are less likely to shoot blacks than other races but they are more likely to use non-lethal forms of violence against blacks than other races.

That's just an FYI

#24 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 11:38 PM | Reply

Do we ever take into account the disproportionate crime rates, rates of violence, homicide rates, etc. of blacks relative to other races when looking at how police deal with blacks or is it all just 100% systemic racism?

#25 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 11:40 PM | Reply

Do we ever take into account the disproportionate crime rates, rates of violence, homicide rates, etc. of blacks relative to other races when looking at how police deal with blacks or is it all just 100% systemic racism?

What do you mean, "take into account?"

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 11:44 PM | Reply

A recent experiment/study showed cops are less likely to shoot blacks than other races but they are more likely to use non-lethal forms of violence against blacks than other races.

What's it say that the same "experiment" was conducted in all 50 laboratories of democracy?

#27 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 11:45 PM | Reply

What do you mean, "take into account?"

#26 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

What do you think I mean?

#28 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 11:50 PM | Reply

I have no idea. That's why I'm asking you what "taking it into account is supposed" to, like, actually mean, man.

It's your idea, so please continuity to convey it.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 11:52 PM | Reply

You know what it means. If you don't, you should.

You routinely cite "systemic racism" and rarely cite anything empirical to back it up (I'll cede the separate penalty for possession of crack vs powder cocaine).

Per capita black people commit an overwhelming majority of violent crime. Hence, they are charged and locked up at a disproportionate rate. Those who claim 'systemic racism' utilize bogus stats known as "disparate impact". It's cherry-picking data to the nth degree.

#30 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 11:58 PM | Reply

I know what taking something into account means.
What I don't know is what it is that you are asking to be taken into account.
What are you asking to be taken into account?

I guess I know the "what," it's that blacks have higher rates of many negatives.
How do you propose we take that into account?
Again, your suggestion, not mine.
Flesh it out.

#31 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:03 AM | Reply

You routinely cite "systemic racism" and rarely cite anything empirical to back it up

No different than routinely citing "gravity" without invoking Newton's Law.
Everybody except a few willfully blind people know what "systemic racism" is.

Here's just one example:
"Baltimore City Police Department (BPD) engages in a pattern or practice of conduct that violates the First and Fourth Amendments of the Constitution as well as federal anti-discrimination laws. BPD makes stops, searches and arrests without the required justification; uses enforcement strategies that unlawfully subject African Americans to disproportionate rates of stops, searches and arrests; uses excessive force; and retaliates against individuals for their constitutionally-protected expression."
www.justice.gov

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:06 AM | Reply

Per capita black people commit an overwhelming majority of violent crime.

Per capita, men commit nearly all crime.
Any thoughts on how we should take that into account, or do we not need to?

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:11 AM | Reply

Those who claim 'systemic racism' utilize bogus stats known as "disparate impact". It's cherry-picking data to the nth degree.

Is that what the DOJ did in Baltimore?
Is that what the study you referenced in #24 did?
What is your angle here?

#34 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:12 AM | Reply

It's cherry-picking data to the nth degree.

You'll have to explain why a higher rate of crime per capita for blacks isn't cherry picking crime data based on race.

#35 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:14 AM | Reply

Do we ever take into account the disproportionate crime rates, rates of violence, homicide rates, etc. of blacks relative to other races when looking at how police deal with blacks or is it all just 100% systemic racism?

#25 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

This is the second time you've made this thoroughly blind assertion today. Are you oblivious of every single independent study showing that blacks are disproportionately and intentionally targeted by LEO and the courts? Please read this and internalize the numbers within it. They are truly staggering and wholly turn the bogus statistics you've read into the fairy tales they obviously are: Ferguson's True Criminals: The city's police, city, and courts unjustly targeted blacks with a violation of their most basic rights.

What about in Cleveland too: The DOJ's jaw-dropping report about the Cleveland Police Department

There is a reason why blacks are over-represented in the statistics you've seen but they do not tell the complete story. Whether you want to recognize it or not, the "system" has made black criminality the revenue driver for municipalities all over the nation. The prejudice that blacks are more predisposed to crime than whites is what leads to these shootings and police "misunderstandings" every single day.

#36 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 12:15 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I don't think you have any idea what you are even saying.

Just a bunch of uncomfortable thoughts swirling in your head that you can't seem make go away.

Facts like the existence of institutional racism, in a country that was racist from before birth, was nearly ripped apart by a racist civil war, then glossed over racial inequality for a century, and only in the past 12.5% of its time here on earth ha given races on-paper equality, which led to riots.

Somehow, despite having the incredible benefit on-paper equality from a Constitutionally restrained Federal government for one brief glimmer of their existence in America, still the net worth of the average black household in the United States is $6,314, compared with $110,500 for the average white household.

Blacks are per capita dirt poor. How should we take that into account? For one thing I'd expect them to be committing a whole lot more crimes. Don't you?

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:20 AM | Reply

JeffJ let's shift gears a second.
You say I see racism everywhere.

Town I grew up in, there was an old plantation right off the bike path we'd ride every day every summer. One of the few homes that didn't burn.

Serious question: Was I not supposed to see that plantation, or learn what a plantation was?

#38 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:25 AM | Reply

Further statistic analysis:

(1) If a black person and a white person each commit a crime, the black person is more likely to be arrested. This is due in part to the fact that black people are more heavily policed.

2) When black people are arrested for a crime, they are convicted more often than white people arrested for the same crime.

(3) When black people are convicted of a crime, they are more likely to be sentenced to incarceration compared to whites convicted of the same crime.

Racial disparities at every stage of the criminal justice process build upon one another. So, if 1,000 white people and 200 black people (a ratio of 5:1 to reflect the U.S. population) commit the same crime, here is what the eventual prison population could look like:

100 white people and 74 black people might be arrested.

It is impossible to determine what percentage of crimes committed result in arrests because there can be no data on un-observed crimes. As noted above, however, it has been found that while black and white Americans smoke marijuana at similar rates, blacks are arrested 3.7 times as frequently for marijuana possession.

50 white people and 48 black people might be convicted.

If black people account for 35% of drug arrests and 46% of convictions.

19 white people and 24 black people might be sentenced to prison.

Using the example felony incarceration rates cited above, we might expect to see 38% of the 50 convicted white defendants (19) and 51% of the 48 convicted black defendants (24) incarcerated for their crimes. In this scenario, 12% of black people who commit a crime and less than 2% of white people who commit the same crime might eventually go to prison.

This example demonstrates that there are systemic differences in how blacks and whites are treated by the law. These differences, which are compounded in each successive phase of the criminal justice process, increase the percentage of black people incarcerated for committing a particular crime.

Regardless of the exact factors behind the incarceration gap, it is not some neutral, statistical fact that black people commit more crime. The gap is the result of numerous interacting factors, not the least of which is racism. Explanations of the incarceration gap as a result of black criminal propensity or insular cultural deficiencies are critically flawed, and by definition racist. www.huffingtonpost.com

#39 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 12:26 AM | Reply

Blacks have, by far, the highest out-of-wedlock birth-rates of any race in this country. Children reared without dad have a substantially higher crime rate than when dad is home.

Welfare (before it was reformed and reformed welfare is something that progressives chafe against) financially rewarded out of wedlock birth.

Yet, somehow, blacks murdering other blacks at horrific levels in cities like Chicago is proof-positive of systemic racism - that these cities have been exclusively run by Democrats for decades is all-the-more proof of systemic racism by Republicans.

#40 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:26 AM | Reply

In an era of Affirmative Action, BLM, Barack Obama being elected president, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson......yep...systemic racism dominates this country.

When I point out that the ACA exchanges are collapsing I am labelled as a horrible racist - yet anti-black racism is somehow systemic in this country. According to the logic being put forth, when a black man in Chicago shoots and kills another black man in Chicago (and kills his 6-year old daughter) - that is a result of systemic racism.

What is ironic is the lack of recognition of the racism of diminished expectations.

#41 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:31 AM | Reply

#39

2) When black people are arrested for a crime, they are convicted more often than white people arrested for the same crime.

3) When black people are convicted of a crime, they are more likely to be sentenced to incarceration compared to whites convicted of the same crime.

That's called "not being able to afford a lawyer". It has made all the difference for me.

#42 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2016-09-21 12:32 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's awfully convenient when proof of systemic racism is reverse-engineered.

#43 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:34 AM | Reply

I love that the fact that black people commit an overwhelming majority of per capita crimes, homicides, etc simply doesn't compute when making the whole disparate impact argument.

#44 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:37 AM | Reply

It's awfully convenient when proof of systemic racism is reverse-engineered.

If you're saying institutional racism doesn't exist, just come out and say that.

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:38 AM | Reply

Yet, somehow, blacks murdering other blacks at horrific levels in cities like Chicago is proof-positive of systemic racism

"Citation needed."

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:39 AM | Reply

I can't say that until you specifically define "institutional racism".

A culture where black kids who excel in school are bullied and derided as 'acting white' is NOT institutional racism. It's cultural decay within that community.

As I said before, I completely cede the crack cocaine sentences.

#47 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:42 AM | Reply

Yet, somehow, blacks murdering other blacks at horrific levels in cities like Chicago is proof-positive of systemic racism - that these cities have been exclusively run by Democrats for decades is all-the-more proof of systemic racism by Republicans.

You're either unwilling or unable to discuss this seriously...

#48 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:42 AM | Reply

"Citation needed."

#46 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Citation for what? It is common knowledge that 90% of blacks who are killed are done so by another black person. A perfunctory Google search bears this out. When a black man in Chicago kills another black man is systemic racism to blame?

#49 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:44 AM | Reply

I can't say that until you specifically define "institutional racism"

lmgtfy.com

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:45 AM | Reply

It is common knowledge that 90% of blacks who are killed are done so by another black person

Also true for whites, I think it's like 77% right?
What you planning to do with these factoids?

#51 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:46 AM | Reply

You're either unwilling or unable to discuss this seriously...

#48 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I am trying very hard to discuss this seriously. If my caricature of your position is inaccurate (this is based upon years of reading your posts on this subject) then PLEASE clarify.

#52 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:46 AM | Reply

I completely cede the crack cocaine sentences.

But you still had to ask what institutional racism means...

It's like you don't think there's enough pieces to build an institution, is that it?
Maybe just a small garden shed of racism, over on the side?
If that's not a denial, it's certainly got to be a down-playing, right?

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:48 AM | Reply

Yet, somehow, blacks murdering other blacks at horrific levels in cities like Chicago is proof-positive of systemic racism - that these cities have been exclusively run by Democrats for decades is all-the-more proof of systemic racism by Republicans.

Jeff, you are just ignorant of the facts, that's all. I'm surprised you've never learned that what is happening in Chicago today is the result of decades long systemic racism that kept upwardly mobile blacks locked in ghettos by housing covenants and unscrupulous contracts that kept blacks from ever accruing wealth through homeownership. You don't understand how the law enabled white people to steal the wealth of blacks for decades. And when whites eventually moved out into the suburbs, the vultures would pluck the clamoring blacks rushing for a better life for their children, chasing the elusive American Dream.

Here is an article that gives you the complete chronology on how it happened, and it isn't about Democrats or Republicans, it was about keeping blacks out of white neighborhoods as a matter of public policy and the business strategy of redlining. Do not get caught up in the title please. www.theatlantic.com

It is long and meticulously detailed, but it explains quite a lot. There is a reason we have black history month: Too many Americans of all ethnicities have no idea how our history fell disproportionately on some's progress far more than others. And it had nothing to do with individual effort and everything to do with the same mentality that made it conscionable for alleged "Christian" people to justify the owning and enslaving of other human beings while paying homage and respect to the ideals of the Constitution at the same time.

#54 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 12:49 AM | Reply

Also true for whites, I think it's like 77% right?
What you planning to do with these factoids?

#51 | POSTED BY SNOOY

A white person is 8 times more likely to be killed by a black person than vice versa, according to FBI stats.

I hate to break it to you but Jim Crow is long gone. Lynchings are long gone. The KKK is vehemently shunned.

Race relations in this country made enormous strides for decades and have been set back a bit by Obama.

#55 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:49 AM | Reply

A culture where black kids who excel in school are bullied and derided as 'acting white' is NOT institutional racism. It's cultural decay within that community.

Is there some reason that it can't be both of those things at the same time? Or do you require those to be mutually exclusive?

Let's try this one: "Net worth of the average black household in the United States is $6,314, compared with $110,500 for the average white household." Is that decay? Or was there precious little to rot and wither in the first place?

It's all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps. -- Martin Luther King

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:53 AM | Reply

Tony,

I will acknowledge ignorance regarding the past few decades of Chicago. However, "systemic racism" is NOT what has brought Detroit to its current lowly state. Lots of reasons for it but racism isn't one of them.

#57 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:53 AM | Reply

Race relations in this country made enormous strides for decades and have been set back a bit by Obama.

Race relations have been set back by racists crawling out of the woodwork because they can't brook the insult of a black President.

#58 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 12:54 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

s there some reason that it can't be both of those things at the same time? Or do you require those to be mutually exclusive?

Do you deny this cultural component?

#59 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:54 AM | Reply

Race relations have been set back by racists crawling out of the woodwork because they can't brook the insult of a black President.

#58 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Yep. Obama has done NOTHING to foment racial tensions - you are a clueless buffoon if you believe that.

#60 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 12:56 AM | Reply

Those who claim 'systemic racism' utilize bogus stats known as "disparate impact". It's cherry-picking data to the nth degree.

#30 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

If that's the case, I challenge you to refute the evidence of institutional racism provided by Michelle Alexander in her book The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness.

#61 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-21 01:01 AM | Reply

I hate to break it to you but Jim Crow is long gone.

No, it's called many other things like voter ID laws and the school-to-prison pipeline now.

Lynchings are long gone.

They're called police shootings of unarmed blacks now.

The KKK is vehemently shunned.

They're endorsing the GOP Presidential candidate and both he and his VP refuse to denounce their continued vocal support.

Race relations in this country made enormous strides for decades and have been set back a bit by Obama.

The President has done nothing but achieve at the highest levels of elite society and academia. Dislike for his policies morphed into a demonization of his own feelings regarding his journey as a black man in this society. You allow him no room to show sympathy for those of his kind without perceiving such conversations as being against the other half of his own genetics. Obama couldn't divide that which has never been fully joined.

#62 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 01:02 AM | Reply

A white person is 8 times more likely to be killed by a black person than vice versa, according to FBI stats.

This is nearly impossible to glean meaning from, because you're comparing odds ratios from two populations that are not equal in size. You are being LIED TO with statistics, only you don't get that, and you're calling it "taking into account" even though you can't say what exactly that means from a statistical perspective.

Here's what simple to parse:
Homicides in the US by victim and pepertartor, 2014
of total victims in ethnic group
Blacks killed by whites: 7.6%
Whites killed by whites: 82.4%
Whites killed by blacks: 14.8%
Blacks killed by blacks: 90
qz.com

(sorry about that link, it was the first place I could find this table, I didn't even read anything else on that link and am not posting it for any other reason than to back up this post)

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:03 AM | Reply

I actually had high hopes for what Mr. Hope/Change could deliver in terms of rhetorical harmony.

I truly believed he would deliver on his rhetoric. Yes, his election drew out some racism (it takes 2 to Tango) but he has been disappointingly divisive. Deliberately so. His one shining moment was in the aftermath of the Giffords shooting. The right and left were ripping each other to shreds and he delivered a speech that squelched the acrimony. Other than that he has gone out of his way to be divisive and to foster identity politics for cynical reasons.

#64 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:03 AM | Reply

Do you deny this cultural component?

A decaying culture can be the result of imposed institutional racism, like in Ferguson, as just one example.

Do you deny it?

#65 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:06 AM | Reply

I would like to know why blacks can't crawl out from under the poverty of Jim Crow. Redlining is over, there is the EEOC, there are are university quotas.

Yet 53% of murders in the US are committed by 3% of the population - young black males between 18 and 35.

I know we need to end the war on drugs, and thus end the gang crime like I saw growing up, but there has to be something else....

84% of black households are on welfare, nearly all of them single parent. Maybe that's one place to start.

I actually hate to say it, but some kind of 'reparation' might need to be paid, even if you don't call it that.

Hell, Malcolm X argued that poor whites and blacks where in the same boat, and so did MLK....

Tax the rich, feed the poor, 'till there are no poor no more....

#66 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2016-09-21 01:09 AM | Reply

Obama has done NOTHING to foment racial tensions - you are a clueless buffoon if you believe that.

You're a clueless buffoon if you don't see how the simple act of electing a black President foments racial tension,.

A black girl going to a school for the first time fomented it, so why cant a black person moving into the White House for the first time in history have the same effect?

You'd have to think there are no racists in America to think there'd be no racist backlash.

I doubt you're that big a buffoon.

#67 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:09 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

No, it's called many other things like voter ID laws and the school-to-prison pipeline now.

Serious question: Do you support or oppose school-choice vouchers? Please explain either way.

They're called police shootings of unarmed blacks now.

More police are shot and killed by blacks than unarmed blacks are shot and killed by police.

They're endorsing the GOP Presidential candidate and both he and his VP refuse to denounce their continued vocal support.

I agree that this is terrible. I would argue that it's less terrible than making a horrible person like Al sharpton a regular guest in the White House and making him a point person for race-relations by the Obama administration. Now, If a Trump administration were to do the same thing with David Duke....

I completely agree with your collective take regarding Team Trump's refusal to disavow David Duke - but the fact that you have been silent (or more likely loudly applauded) Team Obama's relationship with Sharpton - this is rank hypocrisy to the nth degree.

#68 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:10 AM | Reply

#64 In case you hadn't noticed, Hillary does identity politics too.

#69 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2016-09-21 01:11 AM | Reply

I would like to know why blacks can't crawl out from under the poverty of Jim Crow.

One reason is they have cops sweating them if they step an inch out of line.

#70 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:13 AM | Reply

A decaying culture can be the result of imposed institutional racism, like in Ferguson, as just one example.
Do you deny it?

#65 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Amazing that all through reconstruction and Jim Crow blacks managed to maintain a 20% out of wedlock birth rate but once all of that went away and single black moms were financially rewarded for having multiple babies out of wedlock....I guess we could label that as systemic racism, but I doubt you'd agree with defining it that way.

#71 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:14 AM | Reply

One reason is they have cops sweating them if they step an inch out of line.

#70 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Amazing that Jalen Rose doesn't quite see it that way.

#72 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:15 AM | Reply

#70 Now let's hear your other reasons.

#73 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2016-09-21 01:15 AM | Reply

Do you support or oppose school-choice vouchers? Please explain either way.

Choice yes, vouchers no.
Vouchers merely rob Peter to pay Paul. They will hurt as much as they help, practically by economic definition.
If your schools suck, then fix the ones you've got.
Don't build second schools that only a few get to make use of, while the bulk of students still languish in the old schools.

#74 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:16 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Choice yes, vouchers no.

Choice and vouchers are one in the same.

#75 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:17 AM | Reply

#70 Now let's hear your other reasons.

Once the cops sweat you end up with get a record, then you can't get a job.
Didn't you say you had family members arrested on BS?
There's a "ban the box" movement that would help people like that.
Referring to the "have you ever been arrested" box on a job application, which gives carte blanche to deny an offer employment.

#76 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:18 AM | Reply

Choice and vouchers are one in the same.

There are other ways to provide choices. There are charter schools everywhere where I live.

#77 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:19 AM | Reply

#71 Jeffj, have you The Moynihan Report (1965)?

It spells out exactly what would happen as the black family decays. And it was right.

#78 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2016-09-21 01:19 AM | Reply

(it's "one and the same")

#79 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:19 AM | Reply

#57

Intentional quietly racist housing policies have kept many blacks families from accruing the wealth that Snoofy alludes to in his statistics. I don't know Detroit's history, but I do know there were always neighborhoods blacks weren't welcomed in at given times. And those neighborhoods always had better schools and better life-results from the students there than were achieved in most poorer areas.

One question: Have you ever noticed that poor white people never live in clustered urban environments? Why is that Jeff? Why don't poor whites live in urban ghettos? Nothing in our past occurred by happenstance. Where we are today - and how our society evolved - happened because of conditions put in place so that certain groups would always thrive at the expense of others less fortunate for not having real power or control over their own destinies.

#80 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 01:19 AM | Reply

The Moynihan Report (1965)?
It spells out exactly what would happen as the black family decays.

Oddly enough, 1965 was the same year that Jim Crow ended.
Strange how the "decay" would not end there, but begin there...

#81 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:22 AM | Reply

I would have thought you oppose charter schools - apologies if I read you wrong on that.

You're a clueless buffoon if you don't see how the simple act of electing a black President foments racial tension,.

I already acknowledged that it takes 2 to tango.

Fact is, outside of his laudable Giffords speech Obama has gone out of his way to divide this country along racial-lines (and other identity-lines).

He made a conscious decision to do this.

#82 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:23 AM | Reply

One reason is they have cops sweating them if they step an inch out of line.
#70 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Amazing that Jalen Rose doesn't quite see it that way.
#72 | Posted by JeffJ

I don't know who Jalen Rose is, but I do know the DOJ said that's what the police do in Baltimore.

#83 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:23 AM | Reply

Obama has gone out of his way to divide this country along racial-lines

What are you talking about?
Show me the divisive words.

Serious question: Can you see from the wealth statistics, crime statistics, etc. that this country is already divined along racial lines?

Can you see that or not?

#84 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:25 AM | Reply

#80

Have you ever noticed that poor white people never live in clustered urban environments?

That epitomizes trailer parks throughout the state of Michigan - poor white people clustered in urban environments.

#85 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:26 AM | Reply

Amazing that all through reconstruction and Jim Crow blacks managed to maintain a 20% out of wedlock birth rate but once all of that went away and single black moms were financially rewarded for having multiple babies out of wedlock.

You fail to account for the War on Drugs, the over-representation of blacks in criminal statistics and the fact that more than half of black men have criminal records. Hard to take care of your family from a prison cell. And do you see how this is connected to the systemic racism we're showing you in the criminal justice system?

#86 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 01:27 AM | Reply

don't know who Jalen Rose is,

He was a prominent member of the "Fab 5" who went on to have a solid career in the NBA. He grew up in a Detroit Ghetto and funded and has run a school in the bowels of Detroit that has produced really good results.

but I do know the Obama - DOJ said that's what the police do in Baltimore.

#83 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

FTFY

#87 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:30 AM | Reply

#85

Point taken, but nowhere in the numbers of the urban housing projects that were intentionally built oftentimes to localize blacks in lesser desirable areas. And yes, many times the people themselves helped the decline of certain areas. They usually aren't built in locations that offer easy access to good paying jobs, are they?

#88 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 01:31 AM | Reply

That epitomizes trailer parks throughout the state of Michigan - poor white people clustered in urban environments.
#85 | Posted by JeffJ

How urban? Are you talking Metro Detroit or outside?

#89 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:31 AM | Reply

Tony,

I agree that the 'War on Drugs' has been an abject failure.

#90 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:31 AM | Reply

but I do know the Obama - DOJ said that's what the police do in Baltimore.

Is that your example of Obama being racially divisive?

#91 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:32 AM | Reply

I agree that the 'War on Drugs' has been an abject failure.

But do you agree that it's racist?
Why can't you bring yourself to do that?

#92 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:33 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Oddly enough, 1965 was the same year that Jim Crow ended.
Strange how the "decay" would not end there, but begin there...

#81 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Not really, its the same year illegal immigration started its nonlinear growth curve.....

#93 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-21 01:33 AM | Reply

#89

Both - Michigan has a LOT of trailer parks and they are mostly white inhabitants.

#94 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:33 AM | Reply

Is that your example of Obama being racially divisive?

It's a solid example of it but we have to dig deep into the report to see it.

He's had countless other examples that are obvious on their face.

#95 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:35 AM | Reply

Bad italics!

#96 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:35 AM | Reply

Actually, I "parrot" the same black crime statistics that the likes of Thomas Sowell does. He's black, BTW, and is a prof at Stanford.

#98 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 01:38 AM | Reply

The DOJ investigation of racism in Baltimore PD is a solid example of Obama's divisive racist rhetoric?

Seriously?

That's ------ up, man. Would you find it racially divisive if the DOJ took down an Italian mob family too?

You're not right in the head. Specifically, when it comes to race, you're very, very confused.

#99 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:39 AM | Reply

If Sowell actually spewed that crap you trotted out earlier, he should be ashamed, because those are some terrible statistics.

#101 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:40 AM | Reply

(By which I mean Sowell's are terribly presented statistics. Comparing non-equal sized groups probability of interaction with each other is highly problematic.)

#102 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 01:42 AM | Reply

And again, just to be clear, up until recently with the explosion of the financial sector and it's non-productive hoovering-up of the productive worker's GDP gains, a house was the main way middle class families accrued their wealth. If you buy a house in a desirable neighborhood with great schools, it will likely appreciate at or above the norm. If you never buy a home, or buy one in an area with less desirable schools and amenities, not so much. There was a widespread, intentional practice of redlining used throughout most urban areas which kept black homeowners from buying in many desirable neighborhoods and trapped within decaying ghettos. This is one of the reasons what Donald Sterling did with his rentals and what Trump and his father were charged with and fined for is so insidious. Sheer racism retarded the opportunities for myriad black families to have the same opportunity most white families took for granted as their income levels rose.

This same thread is woven almost invisibly throughout our culture and it's nothing more than a continued exploitation and denial of equality that black people have had to deal with and overcome since the moment the first slaves landed on this continent. Here's a revealing factiod:

Regardless of their income level, white families typically live in neighborhoods that are roughly 80% white. Black and Hispanic families, meanwhile, live in communities that are roughly a third to a half black and Hispanic. These trends, however, can have long-term implications, said Sean Reardon, the study's lead author. Children who grow up in poorer neighborhoods are less likely to go to college and more likely to become single parents, recent studies show. "The worse the neighborhood you grow up in, the lower your income is by age 25 to 30," Reardon said.

A middle class white family lives in an area where the median income is $52,800, according to a new study issued by the Stanford Graduate School of Education. Asian families reside in an even more upscale community, with a median income of $59,800. But a black family with the same household income is surrounded by neighbors making only $42,600. And a Hispanic family lives in an area where residents earn only $46,200. The gap is even larger when looking at low-income and affluent Americans. In fact, poor whites live in wealthier neighborhoods than middle class blacks. money.cnn.com


A big part of this disparity is because of the history of systemic racism throughout the housing industry at the same time our laws say this shouldn't happen.

#103 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 01:57 AM | Reply

And again, just to be clear, up until recently with the explosion of the financial sector and it's non-productive hoovering-up of the productive worker's GDP gains, a house was the main way middle class families accrued their wealth.

This is the crux of the wealth issue.
Redlining is at the crux of the wealth issue.

JeffJ sees all these facts, but no pattern emerges. He can't wrap his head around why it's called systemic or institutional racism... or acknowledge that it truly is such a thing.

He even commented on a study where police are more likely to use everything but lethal force against blacks... and followed up asking for the higher rate of black crime to be "taken into account."

#104 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 02:09 AM | Reply

Oh, and I forgot to mention that as a practice potential black homebuyers historically were held to much higher credit standards and paid higher interest rates than comparable whites even when they could get loans.

Racial disparity in mortgage rates is widespread between black and white borrowers, according to a newly published study which found more financially vulnerable black women suffer the most.

The study, led by Ping Cheng, Ph.D., professor of finance in Florida Atlantic University's College of Business, used data from three waves of U.S. Survey of Consumer Finance and found that black borrowers on average pay about 29 basis points more than comparable white borrowers, or .29 percent more. Their article was published in the July 2015 issue of The Journal of Real Estate Finance and Economics . www.fau.edu

More than two decades after a landmark study showed a pattern of lending discrimination against minorities, black and Latino borrowers in Massachusetts continue to be rejected for home mortgages at much higher rates than whites, according to a new analysis of loan records.

In his annual study on home-lending trends, Jim Campen, economics professor emeritus at the University of Massachusetts Boston, finds a persistent pattern of racial disparity in mortgage approvals in both greater Boston and across the state, even when minority borrowers have roughly the same income as whites.

Some 21 percent of black home buyers in Boston were rejected for a mortgage in 2014, compared with just 6 percent of white loan applicants, according to Campen's report.

Beyond Boston, the numbers aren't much better, with about 17 percent of black mortgage applications getting rejected, versus 6 to 7 percent for whites. Meanwhile, Latino borrowers were twice as likely to have their mortgage applications rejected compared with whites, according to the report. www.bostonglobe.com


And this keeps on continuing because no one is really trying to stop it or even recognizes that these disparities are the concrete evidence that more than sound business practices are causing these results.

#105 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 02:16 AM | Reply

JEFF -

Are you going to accept my challenge?

#106 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-21 02:25 AM | Reply

Racism in finance? Major banks issue higher interest rates to minorities

Some of America's biggest banks have been charging minorities more than 3.3-times more than other borrowers according to a recent survey of U.S. loan data. Citigroup Inc. issued loans to African Americans with rates 3.38-times more than other borrowers in 2011. Wells Fargo & Co. charged 2.28 times more, while J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. loaned out at rates 2.21 times higher. African Americans borrowing from KeyCorp, owner of KeyBank, saw rates that were 1.7-times higher.


This is what systemic racism looks like. It's the 'should be illegal' stealing of wealth from an aggrieved class toward the unearned benefit of another. There are plenty more examples if you care to notice them.

#107 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 02:31 AM | Reply

The KKK is vehemently shunned.

#55 | Posted by JeffJ

Except by one major party's presidential candidate

#108 | Posted by truthhurts at 2016-09-21 07:23 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The PCP in his car or in his system is completely irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is: Was he doing anything that would warrant shooting him when he was shot?

Its on video so we can definitively answer: No. Nobody was in any danger at all when he was shot.

That's it. All this other garbage is just obfuscation. What happened before the video? Doesn't matter. Was their PCP in his system? Doesn't matter. Did he have a record? Doesn't matter. Did he like cops? What was his favorite color? Did the cops think he looked scary? What does Ted Nugent think? Doesn't matter.

What matters is that he was shot while not posing a threat to anyone.

#109 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-21 10:09 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"Do you support or oppose school-choice vouchers"

oppose.. coupons are gay

#110 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2016-09-21 11:08 AM | Reply

This guy wasn't the first person do die on PCP and won't be the last. It makes you do crazy sheet. I'm sure the cops didn't want to shoot him. He must have done something stupid and looked like a threat.
#6 | Posted by miserygoy at 2016-09-20 09:29 PM

Yeah, that walking away slowly with the hands in the air, VERRRRRY threatening.

#111 | Posted by e1g1 at 2016-09-21 11:29 AM | Reply

I have no reason to believe the police found anything in his car, they have lied all during this whole thing. She claimed he was reaching into the car even though we could clearly see the window was up. After that she established that she is a liar and there is no reason to believe anything else she says in an attempt to justify a murder. There should be a federal investigation.

#112 | Posted by danni at 2016-09-21 11:31 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

JEFFJ -

You still around?

#114 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-21 02:23 PM | Reply

#107

Interest rates are set by the risk level of the loan not the skin color of the applicant.

#105

If blacks are held to higher mortgage standards they would have a lower rate of default than whites. They don't have a lower rate of default than whites. What that statistic suggests to me is that blacks apply for mortgages that are beyond their reach at a higher rate than whites do.

Tony your correlation is lacking causation.

#115 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 03:31 PM | Reply

Beach,

Just wandered in.

I'll take a look at your challenge in a moment.

#116 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 03:31 PM | Reply

Beach,

I haven't read that book, although it's been on my radar for a while.

#117 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-21 03:36 PM | Reply

Tony your correlation is lacking causation.

You are applying your metrics arbitrarily AGAIN without any recognition that blacks are more likely to lose their jobs than whites and thus higher default rates go hand in hand with what these statistics show. Have you forgotten all the information where blacks pay more for many things than whites, then doesn't it make perfect sense they'll likely face financial distress before an equivalent white will?

The hand of systemic racism can infect almost everything relating to finances and it has for decades. This is nothing new, but if you haven't seen it's impact within your own life or community why would you know such inequities exist?

#118 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 03:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Jeff, the wealth factor also drives this discussion. Blacks do not have anywhere near the wealth or savings of equivalent whites and of course their default rates are going to be higher across the board because they don't have the cushion. And they also don't have parents who they can tap for loans during difficult times. And the cycle continues.

It's common sense.

#119 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 04:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Interest rates are set by some guy behind a desk, JeffJ.

Let's say that person was racist. And let's say that person didn't want black people moving into their community because it brings down property values. I'm sure you see where this is going.

The process of actually buying a house requires multiple interfaces with many actors. If one of them decides to act racist then you've got a problem.

#120 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-21 04:26 PM | Reply

Sprinkle sprinkle sprinkle.

#121 | Posted by fresno500 at 2016-09-21 07:26 PM | Reply

#119
it is common sense. frustratingly so.

#122 | Posted by ichiro at 2016-09-22 01:58 AM | Reply

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