Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, September 19, 2016

Dash cam videos released Monday show Tulsa Police Department officers killing an unarmed 40-year-old black man who had his hands raised. Terence Crutcher was shot and killed by police shortly before 8:00 pm on Friday night. He was unarmed and apparently seeking police assistance because his car had broken down. Tulsa Police Chief Chuck Jordan confirmed Monday afternoon at a press conference that Crutcher had no weapon, and hinted that his department is treating his death like a crime. The videos, including three from police cars and a fourth from a helicopter, are disturbing. None captures the entirety of the interaction between Crutcher and Officer Betty Shelby, who shot and killed him. But all of them show him with his hands raised, walking back to the side of his car, while Shelby follows with her gun raised. Another officer arrives, and fires his Taser at roughly the same moment that Shelby shoots Crutcher.

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TPD initially told the public that Crutcher had ignored officers when they told him to raise his hands and reached back into his car, prompting Officer Shelby to shoot and Officer Tyler Turnbough to fire his Taser. Shelby shot Crutcher once, and he was pronounced dead later at a hospital. But the videos show Crutcher with his hands above his head, walking slowly back to the driver's side of his truck, when he is suddenly tased and shot. The helicopter footage includes an officer murmuring that Crutcher "looks like a bad dude," while another acknowledges that Crutcher's hands are up but says he doesn't seem to be complying with Shelby's commands.

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When the police officials themselves say that they're treating this investigation as a crime, maybe, just maybe we've turned a small corner as it regards these unconscionable police shootings of unarmed people. Yet again, the officers involved say that the decedent somehow threatened their lives or failed to comply when the video seems to show a compliant person not even suspected of any crime other than having his vehicle stall in the middle of the road. The statement of the officer in the helicopter speakds volumes beyond his simple words when he claims that Crutcher is a "bad dude.'

Is anyone paying attention to the fact that these officers are predetermined to not only suspicion without evidence, but create fear within themselves of people simply trying to live their lives in peace when they find themselves in an unwanted encounter with police. If anyone wonders why blacks keep running from police, this video may remove any doubt as to the reasons why.

#1 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 05:12 PM | Reply

he was walking back to his vehicle....obviously with the officers telling him not to do that. correct?

not saying that is a reason to shoot him.

I'm guessing the helicopter pilot's words "bad dude" will be the story.

#2 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 05:32 PM | Reply

who has car trouble with their car in the wrong lane facing the wrong way?

one can ask lots of questions......I'll wait until more is released.

#3 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 05:42 PM | Reply

This video is really disturbing. If the male cop was able to use his taser gun then why did the female cop need to kill the driver? Both fired at the driver at the same time. One thing never taken into account when the cops say the victim didn't listen to their commands is whether or not he was able to hear them clearly. My hearing isn't so good and I can see where if you're nervous and there's traffic zooming by you might miss hearing what it was you were told to do.

#4 | Posted by CalifChris at 2016-09-19 05:47 PM | Reply

I'll wait until more is released.

Why? The police chief says the shooting was a "crime," can't you take his word for it? He said the officers made statements that were false based on the videos. Why are you compelled to find fault with the victim instead of his executioners? Why did the cop in the helicopter surmise that he was likely "a bad dude, probably on something"? And why would police treat him as a criminal suspect in the first place and order him to do anything but converse with them?

You know why they saw him as they did and responded as they did. Does it really need to be stated when it's that obvious?

#5 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 05:48 PM | Reply

The answer to all of your questions is the same.

I'm a racist. Happy?

now move on, race baiter.

#6 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 05:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#4

potential hearing problem. we should learn if that's true and if it's relevant.

I'm sure they were shouting....but a helicopter was hovering overhead and it was a busy part of town....might have been hard to hear.

but he got to the front of the police car with his hands up on his knees, I think.

how'd they get him to do that?

who knows at this point. [...]

#7 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 06:01 PM | Reply

Tonyracebaiter

Uncalled for Eberly. This guy is one of the most able person on this site to put out a well thought out post.

We'll I'm going back to Tulsa one "last" time.
I got sweet home Oklahoma on my mind.
Leon

#8 | Posted by bruceaz at 2016-09-19 06:08 PM | Reply

"a well thought out post."

which one?

you're not talking about #5, I hope.

#9 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 06:12 PM | Reply

"The police chief says the shooting was a "crime," can't you take his word for it? "

The first time a police chief says something he agrees with (he implied it more than he said it according to the article) and Tony suggests we should take his word for it?

ridiculous...or he was being sarcastic.

#10 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 06:16 PM | Reply

Well yes but i was talking about his post history.

#11 | Posted by bruceaz at 2016-09-19 06:16 PM | Reply

Why did the cop in the helicopter surmise that he was likely "a bad dude, probably on something"?

Well from looking at the way the car was parked in the middle of the road, and how far he was from his car, this might indicate he was on something.

My car dies, I pull off to the side of the road and sit/stand by it. I am not wondering the streets.

Not that this guy deserved to die, but until we get more data you can't convict based upon what some "dude" in a helicopter said.

And why would police treat him as a criminal suspect in the first place and order him to do anything but converse with them?

See above.. the car, him approaching the police, and as Eberly points out him possibly going back to the car when told to stand still, then appears to reach down, to his pants, not sure why, get keys? or tasered?

You know why they saw him as they did and responded as they did. Does it really need to be stated when it's that obvious?

#5 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

If this was true, then we would have a shooting like this 24/7/365. The fact is we don't, the fact is we only have a partial visual.

Its not obvious, what was his right arm doing by his pants? Was it due to the taser? IDK do you know for sure?

Here's one thing, they might be calling it a "crime" to suppress a large negative reaction....

Why are there so many cops at the situation, given its just a broken down car?
Why is a helicopter called in?

Is that what happens when cars are broken down? Its not obvious to me, but I am sure you have a scenario where it is.

Look I am willing to listen, but I am not going to convict on some helicopter AV.

#12 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-19 06:59 PM | Reply

I think if a cop says stop or I'll shoot maybe you should stop. I'm just saying.

#13 | Posted by mysterytoy at 2016-09-19 08:26 PM | Reply

Why is the presumption here that the dead man did something wrong?

"Police in Tulsa, Oklahoma, say an officer shot and killed a black man who they say ignored repeated requests to put up his hands ..."

www.washingtonpost.com

This was from a story on the shooting. The video shows the police lied. He did not ignore requests to put up his hands.

"Department spokeswoman Jeanne MacKenzie earlier told reporters that the two officers were walking toward the stalled SUV when Crutcher approached them from the side of the road. She said an officer first used a stun gun on Crutcher before the other shot him with his gun."

Another lie. The taser and gunshot occurred at the same time.

When cops lie this badly, the presumption should be that they did something wrong.

#14 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-19 08:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Eberly,

If I wanted to call you something, I would. Don't presume to read anything into my words that isn't there. There is a difference in being biased or prejudiced and being racist. I see you in the former category, not the latter. My point is that the only thing this man did to cause the police to freak out is be black. I don't know how a person can look at the facts as we know them (not as Andrea wants to invent them out of thin air) and not arrive at something close to this conclusion.

Now we've got people questioning the position of the vehicle and how it could have broken down? Is it a freaking crime to have your vehicle break down in the middle of the street? The credible police are saying that the man WANTED police assistance and now he's dead. There is nothing that he did or didn't do that should have cost him his life. The fact so many bend over backward to make excuses for homicide is precisely why Black Lives Matter takes the moniker they do. Unarmed white people aren't being killed by police when their cars break down. If his alternator died, the vehicle would cease to be maneuverable until it stopped because the power steering would be gone. The steering might have locked and he had to stop immediately. There are many more possibilities as to why his truck ended up where it did and none of them are criminal offenses and reasons for police to view him suspiciously without another cause.

He is dead because he's black and the police wrongly feared him due to their own perceptions. I hope we can at least agree on that conclusion.

#15 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 09:27 PM | Reply

"Now we've got people questioning the position of the vehicle and how it could have broken down?"

Other than a stalled vehicle in an intersection, I've never seen a broken down car in the middle of the road.

Out of thousands and thousands of vehicles I've driven by that were broken down, none (out of thousands) in the middle of the road.

So.......it causes an objective person to question it.

Now you're believing the cops and the police chief?

No witness so far. Just 4 cops and a dead black man and you're buying everything being said by the officers and police chief?

Are you sure you're not just a little lacking in objectivity?

I don't know why they didn't taze him a few times first.

#16 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 09:34 PM | Reply

"why is the presumption here that the dead man did something wrong?"

Multiple squad cars and 4 cops with weapons drawn being covered by a police helicopter?

Maybe that?

#17 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 09:36 PM | Reply

Why would anyone interpret any questions not yet answered as to mean they believe the shooting was justified?

Especially when asking any question they specifically say they believe the shooting appears to NOT be justified?

Questions are fine.

Conclusions? Look at who is jumping to those.......

#18 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 09:38 PM | Reply

I think if a cop says stop or I'll shoot maybe you should stop. I'm just saying.

#13 | POSTED BY MYSTERYTOY

You are correct, this is how a citizen who lives in a Police State should act.

#19 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-19 09:41 PM | Reply

"If his alternator died, the vehicle would cease to be maneuverable until it stopped because the power steering would be gone"

Had that happen many times on the farm growing up.

Never put a vehicle in the middle of the road.

I have a theory as to explain things.......but it's just a guess.

The guy was high or drunk and the police overreacted.

Not a justifiable shooting.

#20 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 09:41 PM | Reply

What are the facts?

The man did not lunge, threaten or move towards the police or reach into the vehicle or grab for a weapon (this from the news article)

SOOOOO no justification for the killing

soooo homicide

#21 | Posted by truthhurts at 2016-09-19 09:42 PM | Reply

Multiple squad cars and 4 cops with weapons drawn being covered by a police helicopter?
Maybe that?

#17 | POSTED BY EBERLY

So in other words, the cops said he was bad, so he must be bad.

#22 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-19 09:43 PM | Reply

TFD,I just explained where the presumption came from.

Not that it's accurate.

#23 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 09:50 PM | Reply

#16-17

My ASSUMPTION is the response was because he was black. I've seen vehicles break down in the middle of the interstates, much less a 2 lane road. So now you're saying because the police showed with so much force the man MUST HAVE DONE SOMETHING. He did do something: He scared these officers because he was black and they thought exactly like you apparently do - it's impossible that he's not up to something.

Now you want to act as though the blue line doesn't exist and it's standard for police chiefs to call police action shootings "a crime" as it regards the officer's actions. The only crime I'm aware of so far is the offending officers giving a false report that the video contradicted. And have you realized your argument is "you can't believe the police chief" when it's already been proven that the culpable officers lied about the chronology of events? I've never seen you take that stance in defense of a person harmed by the police, so why now when such belief goes against what our eyes plainly show happened?

And for the record, I can actually believe that the officers thought events happened as they recited them in their report. That again is the problem. Many cops are so fearful of any black person they don't know that normal human reactions become threatening in their own minds. The create scenarios not because they're necessarily racist, but because they're in constant fear of harm at the hands of a black suspect. But that is the definition of systemic racism based on prejudging everyone of a type based on the actions of a minority of that same type and that is the problem we need to solve rapidly.

#24 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 09:54 PM | Reply

#21

He appeared to be reaching into the vehicle.

That's when he was both shot and tazed.

#26 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 10:05 PM | Reply

I can't even bring myself to watch the video. I'm just sick of it.

#27 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-19 10:11 PM | Reply

From the helicopter video the shot occurs when the chopper is on the other side of the car. Can't really see what the victim was doing at the moment he was shot.

It doesn't look like a justified shoot from the video footage and the fact that the officer who took the shot lied about some key facts only adds to my impression that she screwed up.

Multiple officers with weapons drawn flanked by a helicopter suggests to me that the officers believed this was a dangerous situation but said belief isn't enough to justify a shoot.

They probably did everything correctly up to the point when the shot was taken - that another officer went the taser route at the same moment suggests to me that this particular officer viewed the degree of threat differently than the officer who fired the deadly shot.

#28 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 10:13 PM | Reply

He appeared to be reaching into the vehicle.
#26 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Correct, in our society reaching into your vehicle when there are cops within 50 feet merits the death penalty.
The standards people like you accept are so far gone that we as a society will never recover.

#29 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-19 10:15 PM | Reply

Sonny? You need to read your own posts. You make assumptions, then criticize me for assumptions. The only thing I'm advocating for is a universal agreement that summary execution should not be utilized by LEO unless they are being fired upon or being physically engaged imo. It shouldn't be standard procedure to draw weapons when encountering a stopped vehicle and its driver seeking help.

Just what is the assumption that this man was doing or going to do to these officers that warranted him losing his life? Why would any human being harm LEO in that situation, especially when multiple officers raced to the scene? That is really the only salient point in this entire debate.

To my knowledge, I've never seen a police shooting where they say that they were wrong. It's always because of something the victim did or the way he moved or the way he looked. The old guy in OK did admit he thought he had his tazer when he killed a suspect with his gun, but that's the only one I'm aware of off the top of my head. This time the police chief says the officers were wrong and he considers the shooting a crime. But I'm creating assumptions without evidence, huh? When do police publicly speak without having evidence to back up what they're saying?

#30 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 10:16 PM | Reply

"You make assumptions,"

Yeah but I call them assumptions. Big difference.

#31 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 10:18 PM | Reply

"The standards people like you accept"

What standards?

People like me? Huh? Who am I like?

I haven't accused you nor Tony of any position.

Yet you 2 have combined to assign 10-12 positions to me.

Hateful bastards, the 2 of you.

#32 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-19 10:22 PM | Reply

The only thing I'm advocating for is a universal agreement that summary execution should not be utilized by LEO unless they are being fired upon or being physically engaged imo.

What about a guy who quickly reaches for his waistband? Should they wait for him to draw and fire before using deadly force?

It shouldn't be standard procedure to draw weapons when encountering a stopped vehicle and its driver seeking help.

Do you really think that was all there was to this? All of the officers present clearly felt this was a dangerous situation. Based upon what I saw it looks like a bad shoot to me and given that at least one officer gave false testimony the chief is right to treat this as a crime. Having said that, the police who were present obviously thought this guy was dangerous and it probably was due to reasons other than the color of his skin.

#33 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 10:26 PM | Reply

What about a guy who quickly reaches for his waistband? Should they wait for him to draw and fire before using deadly force?

Can you sight ONE SINGLE INCIDENT where a police shooting victim "reaching for his waistband" actually had a weapon? You folks just don't get it. Half of these black youth have sagging pants and to run you have to hold them up somehow. Again, each case must be judged on it's own, but that particular police excuse is very wanting based upon what is learned after the fact. I posted a thread yesterday showing 14 cases in Chicago where the taxpayers paid millions because police wrongly shot people using excuses which often were lies. Let the facts tell the story: In 14 cases, no gun is found after Chicago police shot someone they said was armed

The point is that the police often lie and there are many cases proving this to be more of the rule than the exception.

#34 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 10:40 PM | Reply

Tony,

You didn't answer my question.

#35 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 10:54 PM | Reply

Cops should have nothing but cuffs, club, taser, radio, and bodycam.

If they can't handle the situation? then retreat, monitor, report, and call in backup.

#36 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-19 10:55 PM | Reply

Let the facts tell the story: In 14 cases, no gun is found after Chicago police shot someone they said was armed....The point is that the police often lie and there are many cases proving this to be more of the rule than the exception.

#34 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

From your source:

To quantify and detail such cases, the Tribune analyzed 235 officer-involved shootings that wounded or killed people over six years using 2010-15 data from the Police Department as well as reports from the Independent Police Review Authority (the agency that investigates officer-involved shootings), court records and findings by the Cook County medical examiner's office.

So, the Tribune analyzed 235 officer-involved shooting and came up with 14 that were questionable (in some cases the ones who were shot had items in their possession that looked like a gun). Of those 14 not ALL of them were unjustified based upon police situational training. It sounds like 6 were bad shoots (which is still way too many). Quick math shows that to be 2.5% of the 235 cases analyzed. Too high of a number but hardly the rule and not the exception as you suggest.

#37 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 11:02 PM | Reply

Sheeple,

In this particular case it looks like they did call in backup. It looks like 1 officer screwed up and then lied about it.

#38 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 11:03 PM | Reply

Initial police briefings indicated Crutcher was not obeying officers' commands, but MacKenzie said Monday she didn't know what Crutcher was doing that prompted police to shoot. Two 911 calls described an SUV that had been abandoned in the middle of the road. One unidentified caller said the driver was acting strangely, adding, "I think he's smoking something."

After the shooting, Crutcher could be seen lying on the side of the road, blood pooling around his body, for nearly two minutes before anyone checked on him. When asked why police did not provide immediate assistance once Crutcher was down, MacKenzie said, "I don't know that we have protocol on how to render aid to people."

The American Civil Liberties Union of Oklahoma, which also called for charges, said Crutcher was left to bleed while officers stood by. The group's executive director, Ryan Kiesel, said Crutcher's death shows "how little regard" Tulsa police have for the community's minorities.

abcnews.go.com


Apparently another case where a 911 caller's impressions influence the police's actions.

Your questions: If the dead suspect doesn't have a weapon, does it matter if the police "wait"? When have cellphones become lethal weapons?
I'm still waiting on you to find a case where a suspect did have a weapon in their waistband.

And what about police NEVER GIVING FIRST AID after they shoot people? They often cuff dying suspects but they never try to save their lives. In my opinion, these actions are the definition of depraved indifference. The cops don't give care because they always assume the victim is guilty of threatening their lives and then is unworthy of having their lives be of concern. It's a sad state of affairs and no community should tolerate actions like these.

#39 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 11:06 PM | Reply

#37

The metric in question was the police saying a victim had a weapon that threatened them, not the total number of shootings. Again, it's about the police's perception of the events not being accurate and costing many innocent people their lives. And then the police charged most of them with crimes on top of them being shot though many charges were later dropped.

One guy had a black phone but the police said he had something "shiny" in his hands that looked like a weapon.

#40 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 11:11 PM | Reply

What about a guy who quickly reaches for his waistband? ...

#33 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Is there no context? Do cops really believe that everyone reaching for their waistband wants to shoot them?
If they're interrupting a bank robbery and the guy reaches for his waistband, maybe, but often it's someone looking for help, or just walking down the street. Should cops really have the right to shoot anyone who looks or is acting suspicious?

#41 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-19 11:15 PM | Reply

And do they really believe that anyone at anytime is just dying to shoot a cop? If so, then we need new cops.

#42 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-19 11:16 PM | Reply

Is there no context? Do cops really believe that everyone reaching for their waistband wants to shoot them?

If they instruct the perp to put his hands up and instead he quickly goes for his waistband...wait for him to pull his weapon and shoot first?

Do they have a right to self-defense in your view?

#43 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 11:20 PM | Reply

You make it sound like it's easy - that everybody on the streets are good and just and that no shoot is ever justified.

I am sure that's not what you believe, but it's how you are coming across.

#44 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 11:21 PM | Reply

They do, but simply because of any willy-nilly "feeling". They have an obligation to the innocent citizens they are sworn to protect (who this guy was one of) to be 100% sure of the situation before they use deadly force.

Do you believe if a cop gives you an order and you don't comply, then they can shoot you?

#45 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-19 11:24 PM | Reply

"not" simply...

#46 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-19 11:25 PM | Reply

I'm still waiting on you to find a case where a suspect did have a weapon in their waistband

I am guessing that it happened at least once in 221 of the 235 cases the Chicago Tribune analyzed.

How many shootings are there in Chicago every weekend? Do you honestly believe that nobody is walking the streets of Chicago with a gun in their waistband?

#47 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 11:25 PM | Reply

And do they really believe that anyone at anytime is just dying to shoot a cop?

This is the larger point. Playing in the park with a toy gun: Threat! Standing in Walmart talking on the phone to your girlfriend, holding a toy gun you haven't even purchased yet: Threat! Running away from police because they're shooting at you mistakenly misidentifying you for someone else, and police see you hold onto your cellphone: Threat!

Question: If Crutcher was going to ambush the police, wouldn't he have already taken his imaginary weapon from his vehicle BEFORE they drew weapons down on him? I'm all for police being careful and protecting themselves, but I stand firmly against them approaching every interaction with a large black man with the forethought that he likely wants to harm them.

It's not only inhumane, it's just wrong on many levels.

#48 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 11:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Never said it was easy, but nobody forced anyone to be a cop. Like the military, it's all volunteer. If you're that scared of the average citizen, if you believe that most folks just walking down the street are just itchin' to kill any random cop for no reason, you really should find a new line of work.

#49 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-19 11:27 PM | Reply

Do you believe if a cop gives you an order and you don't comply, then they can shoot you?

#45 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST

Just simply refusing to comply with an order? No. That, by itself, doesn't justify using deadly force.

They have an obligation to the innocent citizens they are sworn to protect (who this guy was one of) to be 100% sure of the situation before they use deadly force.

Which brings me back to my reaching for the waistband hypothetical - I've even added some context (given an order to put hands up but instead quickly reaches for the waistband). Nobody seems willing to address my hypothetical.

#50 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 11:28 PM | Reply

JeffJ
Under what circumstances can the police roll up and draw on you, then shoot you for not complying with their orders.
At any time? Does some sort of probable cause need to be established?
Or is any failure to comply with any police order grounds for being shot?

#51 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-19 11:29 PM | Reply

#48 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

You cite some specific instances where the cop(s)' actions were clearly wrong and criminal and act as if these things happen in a vast majority of police confrontations. And your assessments usually are coming from incomplete information.

if you believe that most folks just walking down the street are just itchin' to kill any random cop for no reason, you really should find a new line of work.

#49 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST

That's a straw man. Working the beat in certain parts of Detroit or Chicago is dangerous for police. That they tend to be cautious and go into their work with the understanding that they do have a right to protect themselves and that they will likely encounter some dangerous situations is a far cry from believing that 'most folks just walking down the street are just itching' to kill any random cop for no reason'.

#52 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 11:33 PM | Reply

JeffJ
Under what circumstances can the police roll up and draw on you, then shoot you for not complying with their orders.
At any time? Does some sort of probable cause need to be established?
Or is any failure to comply with any police order grounds for being shot?

#51 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I think I answered that in #50 - but you might not have seen it before posting 51.

My understanding is they have to feel their lives and/or the lives of others in the area are in grave danger before the use of deadly force is justified.

I am not really sure why you asked those questions - I don't think anything I've written in this thread would suggest I think all shoots are justified.

#53 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 11:35 PM | Reply

Can you sight ONE SINGLE INCIDENT where a police shooting victim "reaching for his waistband" actually had a weapon? -TR
bluelivesmatter.blue
wncn.com

They aren't hard to find, just Google it......

You folks just don't get it. Half of these black youth have sagging pants and to run you have to hold them up somehow. - TR

Thats kinda racist, I have yet to see this "black youth" are you talking about, I mean I see the caricatures, but I haven't seen it in person.

They often cuff dying suspects but they never try to save their lives. - TR

Lawsuits, they purposely don't train for CPR to avoid them.

#54 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-19 11:36 PM | Reply

Working the beat in certain parts of Detroit or Chicago is dangerous for police.

I think we should focus on the issue at hand: Another questionable police shooting of an unarmed black man, followed by police lying about what happened.

#55 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-19 11:40 PM | Reply

#47

That's not an answer, it's a dodge. You're saying that police shoot suspects who actually have guns in their waistbands and reach for them during confrontations with police. I just want you to find a case proving it so.

People that shoot cops typically don't wait until they arrive to brandish their weapons, imo. The waistband story doesn't usually wash out, that is my point. If you're armed and want to shoot cops, you take cover and fire, you don't emulate Wyatt Earp at the OK Corral. Don't police think that suspects know what triggers police to fire at suspects? But all these shooting victims want to be Quick Draw McGraws.

Makes zero sense to me. I am scared doo-doo-less of police these days. I've had police approach my car with their hand on their guns more than once and I'm 56 years old driving a later model Infiniti. When I was younger I had a cop tell me that I raped a 12 year old girl and he would have arrested me if not for my friend who was with me telling the officer that the bike I was on was his brother's and I couldn't have been where he said I was. Of course, I fit the description of the suspect according to him. What chance do young kids have in this environment?

#56 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 11:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Good job boys. Make em dance. They can't mention the word racism. Think of 1 000 000 000 things it could have been before that. The first one to mention it is a racist race baiter. Any other explanation is better. Any. Take it one incident at a time. If they try, accuse them if calling you racist.

= every thread on these incidents

#57 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2016-09-19 11:43 PM | Reply

Thats kinda racist, I have yet to see this "black youth" are you talking about, I mean I see the caricatures, but I haven't seen it in person.

Racist? You have no comprehension what racism is. Every single day I see mainly black male youth wearing their pants sagging around their thighs. Try running with pants in that position, and you'll quickly find out that they'll drop and you aren't able to run. You have to grab them and pull them up toward your waist in order to run.

Saying that isn't racist, it's observational reality.

#58 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 11:47 PM | Reply

've had police approach my car with their hand on their guns more than once and I'm 56 years old driving a later model Infiniti.

I think that's standard operating procedure. Most times I've been pulled over the cop has his hand on his weapon as he approached my car.

This is what I do when I see the lights in my rear view.

I look for a place to pull over that's off the main road - a side street, parking lot, etc.

I roll down my window.

I cut the engine.

I turn on my interior lights (If I get pulled over at night).

I put my wallet on top of my dashboard.

I keep my hands on top of the steering wheel where they are visible.

I am polite and cordial when dealing with the officer.

#59 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 11:51 PM | Reply

People that shoot cops typically don't wait until they arrive to brandish their weapons, imo. The waistband story doesn't usually wash out, that is my point. If you're armed and want to shoot cops, you take cover and fire, you don't emulate Wyatt Earp at the OK Corral. Don't police think that suspects know what triggers police to fire at suspects? But all these shooting victims want to be Quick Draw McGraws.

Sometimes they panic. Sometimes they are on something and aren't rational.

#60 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-19 11:52 PM | Reply

My understanding is they have to feel their lives and/or the lives of others in the area are in grave danger before the use of deadly force is justified.
#53 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

That's the point, cops "feel" unjustifiably threatened by pretty much anyone it seems. They apply no context and just seem to assume that everyone is out to get them.
That's their first concept of any interaction.

#61 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-19 11:53 PM | Reply

#59 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Good to know that the Police State has scared you into compliance.

#62 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-19 11:54 PM | Reply

They aren't hard to find, just Google it......

First incident was after a traffic stop for suspicious behavior. The second was an already wanted man with priors.

I guess I should have qualified. I'm referring to encounters like this one, where no criminal behavior has been reported or observed by police prior to contact with the victim. Like unidentified people running from police who haven't been positively ID'd as having actually done anything illegal at the time they're "reaching for their waistband."

It seems most of these tend to be police overreactions without any direct provocation other than the officer's perceptions and fears projected upon the suspect's often benign or confused actions or inactions.

#63 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-19 11:59 PM | Reply

"When I was younger I had a cop tell me that I raped a 12 year old girl and he would have arrested me if not for my friend who was with me telling the officer that the bike I was on was his brother's and I couldn't have been where he said I was."

When I was 16 cops tried to arrest me for robbing a veterinarian office and they said that they had a retired cop see me jump out of the window at the vet.

The problem for them was at the time of the robbery I just happen to be talking to one of the richest person in town at that time and he was willing to testify to that fact.

#64 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2016-09-20 12:00 AM | Reply

That's the point, cops "feel" unjustifiably threatened by pretty much anyone it seems. They apply no context and just seem to assume that everyone is out to get them.
That's their first concept of any interaction.

#61 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST

Do you know any cops? That is quite the absurd caricature you have painted.

Good to know that the Police State has scared you into compliance.

#62 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST

Compliance? Yes, when I see red and blue lights in my rearview mirror I pull over. What do you do - flip them the bird and keep driving? Or do you pull over and when they ask to see license and registration you tell them to go screw themselves?

I didn't come up with that little checklist on my own. I read it in "Car and Driver" and it was written in the context of things you can do to reduce the likelihood that a cop will write you a ticket when you get pulled over. Apparently some cops appreciate it when people take all measures available to demonstrate they are not a threat. Cops are actually people. Some of them appreciate little gestures like the ones I posted above. Believe it or not, they are not all monsters. A lot of them are really good people.

#65 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 12:01 AM | Reply

How many shootings are there in Chicago every weekend? Do you honestly believe that nobody is walking the streets of Chicago with a gun in their waistband?

POSTED BY JEFFJ

When your waistband is down around your knees? No...

#66 | Posted by Greatamerican at 2016-09-20 12:02 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

A few years ago I got a bogus misdemeanor charge in Detroit.

The cop didn't even show up for court and the case was dismissed without prejudice. I still had to burn a cool grand for a lawyer though.

#67 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 12:04 AM | Reply

I put my wallet on the dash board.

Bad move,it was probably by your waistband. I had a personal problem on my motorcycle one time. The cops were behind their car doors weapons drawn until they had the situation under control.

Good to be white.

#68 | Posted by bruceaz at 2016-09-20 12:05 AM | Reply

Bruce,

I put my wallet there before they begin approaching my car. If I have time I fish out my license and registration before they get to the car.

#69 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 12:06 AM | Reply

#65 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Yes, I used to work in a cop station, that's where I got to read many cop publications, which is where I got the idea that cops see their job as "good" guys vs. "Bad" guys, who is pretty much anyone they chose to be.

One of the reasons I don't own a car is that I don't feel safe driving, you give up a lot of rights to get behind the wheel.
When I do have interactions with cops, I don't immediately throw myself into a supine, submissive position I can tell you that. I act like a citizen that is their equal at least. I know my rights and am polite to everyone as a rule

#70 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-20 12:10 AM | Reply

I still had to burn a cool grand for a lawyer though.
#67 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Lucky rich cracker.

#71 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2016-09-20 12:12 AM | Reply

#69

Good move. When you actually listen to an officers command and you're black, here's what may happen: www.cnn.com

When Trooper Groubert asks for Jones' license, Jones pivots toward the vehicle he just exited -- the driver's door is still open -- and leans inside as if to retrieve something, the video shows.

About two seconds later, the trooper that police identify as Groubert comes into view with a gun drawn and yells "Get out of the car! Get out of the car!" The gun is fired -- at least four shots are heard -- and Jones steps away from the vehicle, raising his hands in the air and eventually moving off camera.

"I just got my license! You said get my license!" says someone off camera, apparently Jones. After being told to put his hands behind his back, Jones asks: "What did I do, sir?"

#72 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-20 12:16 AM | Reply

Not me, my hands are where they can see them and I don't do anything until I an instructed. Makes us all more comfortable. I'm 59 got 4 tickets in my life, but I did go to jail on the motorcycle thing, they were extremely firm but I can't complain.

#73 | Posted by bruceaz at 2016-09-20 12:16 AM | Reply

When I do have interactions with cops, I don't immediately throw myself into a supine, submissive position I can tell you that. I act like a citizen that is their equal at least. I know my rights and am polite to everyone as a rule

#70 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST

I am the same way. That I take measures to put them at ease before interacting with them doesn't mean I just blindly do what they say. But, if they start messing with me because they think they can I won't hesitate to remind them of my rights under the law and their obligations under the law.

#74 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 12:21 AM | Reply

Bruce,

I keep my wallet in my front pocket. It only takes me a second to put it on the dashboard and I do it before they are even approaching the car.

#75 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 12:22 AM | Reply

That I take measures to put them at ease before interacting with them doesn't mean I just blindly do what they say...

#74 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

But it does signal submission and acquiescence to their implied threats of violence.

#76 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2016-09-20 12:24 AM | Reply

But it does signal submission and acquiescence to their implied threats of violence.
#76 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST

Not so much "violence", but certainly submission to their ability to make my day much longer and more complicated than it needs to be.

Much like the IRS, or any other government agency, when they contact me I cooperate. Cooperation is the key to how government works. IT doesn't work if we fight it at every turn, pick and choose your battles wisely.

Would creating a bill and getting it passed, or arguing with some random police officer better serve your cause of justice?

#77 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-20 12:34 AM | Reply

Can anyone answer this simple question based on the known evidence: Why were the police treating the victim as a criminal suspect and ordering him to "surrender" in the first place? His car stalled, and that's reason to think he's a criminal? Even with the 911 call, shouldn't police politely talk with a person before drawing their weapons and start enacting an arrest with multiple officers?

What they did before he died should have had them all under investigation. The cop in the copter said what all of them were likely thinking and that was prejudicial without cause based on Crutcher's situation and actions. The entire episode is a vivid example of systemic racism even if the individuals themselves aren't racist at all. Hope everyone can understand that.

#78 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-20 12:35 AM | Reply

On a brighter side ,I was living in an apartment after my divorce and my teenage daughter and her friend came over while I had walked to the local convinience store. They pounded on the window and the neighbor called the cops. I came home and was talking to the girls when I hear a helluva pounding at the door. They probably heard me say WTF and my daughter says "dad this lady was yelling at me" so I opened the door,2 plain clothes and one uniform. The uniform guy steps in and I said 'Hey I didn't invite you in here" Well he didn't step out but he didn't come in, I was expecting him to knock me on my ass. I really felt that I had my constitutional rights,but I was so surprised.

#79 | Posted by bruceaz at 2016-09-20 12:37 AM | Reply

But it does signal submission and acquiescence to their implied threats of violence.

#76 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST

I disagree.

I want the traffic stop to be as brief as possible. If my being accommodating and courteous speeds up the process without surrendering my rights....

#80 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 12:39 AM | Reply

On a brighter side ,I was living in an apartment after my divorce and my teenage daughter and her friend came over while I had walked to the local convinience store. They pounded on the window and the neighbor called the cops. I came home and was talking to the girls when I hear a helluva pounding at the door. They probably heard me say WTF and my daughter says "dad this lady was yelling at me" so I opened the door,2 plain clothes and one uniform. The uniform guy steps in and I said 'Hey I didn't invite you in here" Well he didn't step out but he didn't come in, I was expecting him to knock me on my ass. I really felt that I had my constitutional rights,but I was so surprised.

#81 | Posted by bruceaz at 2016-09-20 12:41 AM | Reply

Oops double post

I let my tags expire for 15 months got pulled over. I figured they were going to impound the car anyway so I agreed to the search. He called another cop to watch me and being I was already in a tough spot he had to dig through snotty kleenex dirty socks etc, well that didn't take too long

#82 | Posted by bruceaz at 2016-09-20 12:49 AM | Reply

Why were the police treating the victim as a criminal suspect and ordering him to "surrender" in the first place? His car stalled, and that's reason to think he's a criminal? Even with the 911 call, shouldn't police politely talk with a person before drawing their weapons and start enacting an arrest with multiple officers?

My understanding he approached from the side, and was not near his vehicle. Officer reported it abandoned in the middle of the road, suspect approaches officers vehicle from side, looking kinda like an ambush perhaps that scared the officer, from what I have read, and officer reports suspect won't show hands reported on dispatch.
heavy.com

To sum up my thoughts, it didn't appear like a vehicle problem, as it was in the middle of the road blocking traffic in both directions, then a guy appears from the side of the road and doesn't cooperate with the officer by showing his hands. IT went down hill from there.

Two officers used force within seconds of one another, either they saw something that worried them at the same time, or the taser made the shooting officer freak and she shot with negligence.

The entire episode is a vivid example of systemic racism even if the individuals themselves aren't racist at all. Hope everyone can understand that.
#78 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

Why? This doesn't fall under the term "systemic" by any stretch of the imagination, if there is racism involved it is localized in nature.

#83 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2016-09-20 12:56 AM | Reply

3 years ago some shooting elsewhere in the country resulted in our local police putting a car at the elementary school my youngest was attending. The bus ride home for him was about 20 minutes but the morning bus ride for him was an hour and 20 minutes even though the school is only a mile from our house. He was in the MAGNET program and this school was where MAGNET was run for the entire district so the bus route was huge. As a result I drove him to school in the morning. On one particular morning I was driving him in a vehicle that had expired tabs (by 2 days) and was planning on heading to the Secretary of State after dropping him off (Michigan calls their DMV SoS). The morning cop pulled out of the police station right behind me. I knew right away that he'd recognize my tabs were expired. Well, when I was in the drop-off line he pulled over to the side and for a minute I thought he was going to let me skate. But, after I dropped my son off he fell in right behind me and I knew I was getting a ticket. He followed me for a couple of blocks and then turned on his lights. I turned down a side-street, went through my routine and waited for him....

He walked up and asked if I knew why he pulled me over. I answered yes and this is what he said:

"The reason I followed you like I did and waited to pull you over is because I didn't want to pull you over with your kid in the car and I didn't want to pull you over in front of everybody at the school."

That was pretty cool of him to handle it like that.

#84 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 01:15 AM | Reply

To sum up my thoughts, it didn't appear like a vehicle problem, as it was in the middle of the road blocking traffic in both directions,

That's wholly your opinion not based on a single fact at all. A vehicle blocking the road is usually unmovable or it woulen't be blocking the road. Are you insinuating that he was a pirate setting a trap for unsuspecting people? Why else would the vehicle be there? He wasn't a highwayman Andrea, so why did he become one in your imagination?

You are proving my point and you have no idea what systemic racism is. You are predetermined to stretch credulity to its breaking point to try and criminalize simple reality and nothing will make me believe you'd do this if the person involved wasn't from a suspicious class.

He approached the officer from the side probably because he got tired of standing in the street with his vehicle or maybe had to take a piss or he might have been trying to affect a rescue some other way. Nothing he did can or should be deemed threatening to law enforcement. How long was it from the 911 call or the breakdown till the police arrived?

The entire time he slowly walked toward his vehicle with his hands up showed the officers he wasn't armed and certainly wasn't acting in a threatening manner toward them. Again, why is he being assumed a criminal? Because police have been trained by their experiences to assume the worst when encountering black men they don't know. Society is taught the same thing and I've experienced it during my life. That is systemic racism because it negatively affects people undeserving of stigma, and often justifies criminal action against people that otherwise would bring criminal sanctions against the perpetrators but doesn't in these cases. All because the person is prejudged by who they are, not what they themselves may have done.

#85 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-20 01:26 AM | Reply

Well we haven't heard a thing about the problem with the vehicle, but you certainly don't sit in a disabled vehicle in the middle of the road, you can die that way too.

Not to be a dick but she shot him once. Most of the time they empty their magazines.

#86 | Posted by bruceaz at 2016-09-20 01:35 AM | Reply

Tony,

That's wholly your opinion not based on a single fact at all. A vehicle blocking the road is usually unmovable or it woulen't be blocking the road. Are you insinuating that he was a pirate setting a trap for unsuspecting people? Why else would the vehicle be there? He wasn't a highwayman Andrea, so why did he become one in your imagination?

We don't have all of the facts. Backup was brought in, weapons were drawn, and a chopper was on the scene. Those things don't just happen in this country, in 2016, simply because the perp is big and black. Was the shoot itself bad? Most likely - especially considering the officer lied about certain important details. The situation escalated to a point where guns were drawn, backup was called (and arrived) and a chopper was overhead. All of that happened for a reason, or a set of reasons, that likely had little to do with the color of his skin.

He approached the officer from the side probably because he got tired of standing in the street with his vehicle or maybe had to take a piss or he might have been trying to affect a rescue some other way. Nothing he did can or should be deemed threatening to law enforcement. How long was it from the 911 call or the breakdown till the police arrived?

You don't know that and you can't possibly know that. When the linked video starts the confrontation is already well underway. You don't know what happened immediately prior to that.

The entire time he slowly walked toward his vehicle with his hands up showed the officers he wasn't armed and certainly wasn't acting in a threatening manner toward them. Again, why is he being assumed a criminal? Because police have been trained by their experiences to assume the worst when encountering black men they don't know. Society is taught the same thing and I've experienced it during my life. That is systemic racism because it negatively affects people undeserving of stigma, and often justifies criminal action against people that otherwise would bring criminal sanctions against the perpetrators but doesn't in these cases. All because the person is prejudged by who they are, not what they themselves may have done.

#85 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

Black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime - including violent crime and homicide - on a per capita basis in this country. That doesn't justify arrest bias or anything else. However, what it DOES suggest is that blacks are in conflict more frequently with police than other races because they are committing crimes, including violent crimes, at far higher rates than other races.

#87 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 01:37 AM | Reply

The one question I have is regarding the "lie" - she said his hands weren't raised. They weren't raised when she fired the shot - is that what she meant, or is there more to this? Based upon the information contained within the story that Tony linked, we don't know.

#88 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 01:44 AM | Reply

Dash can videos show

But don't believe your lying eyes

#89 | Posted by bruceaz at 2016-09-20 01:59 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Did you even watch the video, it wasn't some lone lady cop,they had enough folks there to Rodney King that guy good.

#90 | Posted by bruceaz at 2016-09-20 02:10 AM | Reply

I watched the video.

#91 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 02:12 AM | Reply

Always carry donuts...

#92 | Posted by Greatamerican at 2016-09-20 02:35 AM | Reply

I don't think anything I've written in this thread would suggest I think all shoots are justified.

If you're not coming up wirh reasons why this one might be justified, tgen what are you doing?

(When not jamming the channel with praise for the police for extending the courtesy of not shooting you all the times they've pulled you over.)

You seem to be suggesting a stopped car facing the wrong way on the road accompanied by an unarmed man can reasobably be taken as threatening by the very people who respond to those types of emergencies.

#93 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 04:50 AM | Reply

We don't have all of the facts. Backup was brought in, weapons were drawn, and a chopper was on the scene. Those things don't just happen in this country, in 2016, simply because the perp is big and black.

They happen all the time Jeff, you just choose to ignore them. John Wilson was killed by a SWAT team while talking on his phone in Walmart holding a toy gun he was going to buy from the toy department because a white man called 911 and said he was an active shooting threat. www.theguardian.com

Eric Garner was choked to death while multiple cops stood and watched him die without rendering any aid for allegedly selling loose cigarettes even though witnesses at the scene tell police he wasn't selling them right before his death. www.theguardian.com

Laquan McDonald was murdered in the street as a phalanx of police officers and cars surrounded him as he walked down the street. www.theguardian.com

I could go on, but there is no need to. Anyone claiming that a RESPONSE justifies their own prejudice that a victim must have done something to justify the police's overreaction has already arrived at a conclusion. And I told you why the police overreacted: the unverified 911 call(#39). I'm willing to bet that the callers ID'd a black man at the scene. You are extremely naive about why shootings like these occur and the worst part is none of the victims are expecting to be swarmed by police for simply doing what they were doing in peace.

#94 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-20 06:51 AM | Reply

Black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime - including violent crime and homicide - on a per capita basis in this country.

White people STILL commit more crimes in most every single category by number, so that STILL DOESN'T JUSTIFY police overreactions and killings.

And how many crimes have been committed by black men with broken down vehicles in the middle of the road in sparsely populated areas? You are sounding silly and completely ignorant of the reality of that black people are treated as suspects for simply being black. If not, you wouldn't have mentioned the statistic. I'd love for cops to swarm your car because most murders drive that particular model and color. Do you think that justifies how they would treat you without an iota of evidence that you're an actual murderer?

#95 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-20 06:57 AM | Reply

Here's one of the dash videos: youtu.be

Does anyone see a threatening move?

#96 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-20 07:01 AM | Reply

I would stand locked arm in arm in support with those wanting police reform in cases like these if they didn't also make "gentle giants" who assault cops and thugs who assault a "white" hispanic because he thinks they are gay.

The BLM and the left lionizing of criminals coupled with the knee jerk reaction that the cops are always wrong is the biggest stumbling block to building support to substantive police reform.

#97 | Posted by jamesgelliott at 2016-09-20 07:09 AM | Reply

Can anyone answer this simple question based on the known evidence: Why were the police treating the victim as a criminal suspect and ordering him to "surrender" in the first place? His car stalled, and that's reason to think he's a criminal? Even with the 911 call, shouldn't police politely talk with a person before drawing their weapons and start enacting an arrest with multiple officers?

What they did before he died should have had them all under investigation. The cop in the copter said what all of them were likely thinking and that was prejudicial without cause based on Crutcher's situation and actions. The entire episode is a vivid example of systemic racism even if the individuals themselves aren't racist at all. Hope everyone can understand that.

#78 | Posted by tonyroma

Tony

To answer those questions we have to find out what happened before the police helicopter showed up. When the video starts the police officer is on the passenger side of the police car and Crucher in front of the police car with his hands up. Some interaction clearly happened before the video started.

#98 | Posted by truthhurts at 2016-09-20 07:16 AM | Reply

#97

This is a case where LEO itself is saying the officer's actions are not justified by the circumstances, and you're blaming commenters for "knee jerk reactions"? What criminal act did this man commit that should have cost him his life? Believe that his vehicle's engine was going to blow up?

Here are the transcripts of the 911 calls and I stand corrected. Neither caller apparently ID'd the suspect as a black man, but one had a conversation with him and stated:

Caller: There was a guy running from it. He, like somebody was going to blow up. I think he's smoking something.

Dispatch: Ohh (laughing)

Caller: I was rude to him too because I got out and was like, 'do you need help'? And he was like, come here, come here. I said well what's going on and he's like, come here come here. I think it's going to blow up. I'm like nah I'm out.

Dispatch: Okay.

Caller: He started freaking out and he took off running.

Dispatch: Oh wow.

www.kjrh.com

#99 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-20 07:20 AM | Reply

You know why they saw him as they did and responded as they did. Does it really need to be stated when it's that obvious?

It's obvious with Muslims in how they are bombing our country, but you want the obvious stated here?

#100 | Posted by boaz at 2016-09-20 09:39 AM | Reply

Regarding the car being in the middle of the road: Look at the scene. If you needed to pull over there, would you pull off right over the cliff or would you pull off to the left side and live? Looks like he was trying to get over left and the car died.

I don't see how cops would find that mysterious or unusual. They are trained to look for safe spots for vehicles to pull over and should have realized that a disabled vehicle is not going to drive through a guard rail or down a steep embankment into the woods in order to get off the road.

The problem we have is that somewhere along the way we decided that it is acceptable to cops to shoot someone if they feel unsafe. Nobody should die over a cop's feelings. Whether a cop is scared or not is irrelevant. Whether their "sixth sense" tells them that they are about to be shot is irrelevant. Nobody should die because a cop's intiuation is wrong. Cops should not be allowed to shoot anyone until they can factually establish that they are facing the threat of severe harm. Meaning they have to see a weapon.

None of this is going to get fixed if after every bad shooting we have a million apologists whining about how scared the cops were by behavior that isn't life threatening in any way, shape or form.

Our soldiers deployed in war zones have more stringent limitations on when they can shoot someone than our cops do when dealing with American citizens. Even the standard I am proposing is less strict that what some of our soldiers face.

#101 | Posted by sully at 2016-09-20 10:19 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The one question I have is regarding the "lie" - she said his hands weren't raised. They weren't raised when she fired the shot - is that what she meant, or is there more to this? Based upon the information contained within the story that Tony linked, we don't know.

#88 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 01:44 AM | Reply | Flag:

Oh c'mon Jeff. You're a reasonable guy. You watched the video. The distinction you're making doesn't matter at all. At no point did the guy do anything that was life threatening to anyone. Therefore, it was wrong to shoot him.

The cops are just covering their asses with this "he was not complying" stuff. Dissecting their BS for any speck of truth is a waste of time.

#102 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-20 10:32 AM | Reply

Those cops didn't even have any reason to have their guns drawn. They are cowards and should be prosecuted. We can't have police to frightened of black men that they shoot first and ask questions later.

#103 | Posted by danni at 2016-09-20 11:49 AM | Reply

I don't have the time nor patience to follow the 100+ comments in this conversation but if anyone is more outraged over a black guy taking a knee on the football field, than an unarmed black man taking a bullet, than one's priorities are ill aligned.

#104 | Posted by ReformedNeocon at 2016-09-20 02:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Terence Crutcher's attorney on MSNBC just showed that Crutcher's window was up when the cops claimed he was reaching into his car. His blood is on the glass and he's lying dead on the ground below it.

So it's another lie from police that he reached back into his car.

#105 | Posted by rcade at 2016-09-20 02:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Is anyone paying attention to the fact that these officers are predetermined to not only suspicion without evidence, but create fear within themselves of people simply trying to live their lives in peace when they find themselves in an unwanted encounter with police.

Not only that, but it seems common for police offers to stoke fear amongst themselves beyond the basic "Be careful, this situation seems fishy" type of sentiment. A simple comment like "This looks like a bad dude" perfectly encapsulates the stoking of fear between colleagues, ultimately making any officer with a gun drawn that much more likely to pull the trigger. More intensive de-escalation training pertaining to civilians is needed, but also de-escalation training pertaining to fellow officers, apparently, is necessary as well.

#106 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-20 02:49 PM | Reply

"You folks just don't get it. Half of these black youth have sagging pants and to run you have to hold them up somehow." - TR

Thats kinda racist, I have yet to see this "black youth" are you talking about, I mean I see the caricatures, but I haven't seen it in person.

Stereotyping, yes. Racist, maybe. Either way, you apparently don't interact much with the population in question (young, nonwhite males). I, on the other hand, interact with them on a daily basis. And yes, they love to sag their pants and show off their boxers/underwear. It's a common joke around these parts: "How are you going to run from a rival with your pants sagging like that?"

"I won't be runnin' from those fools, they'll be runnin' from me."

"Then how are you going to run them down?"

"That's what I got a belt for."

"So then why don't you use your belt while you're in class?"

"I'm not chasing anybody while I'm in class."

#107 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-20 03:13 PM | Reply

"Not only that, but it seems common for police offers to stoke fear amongst themselves beyond the basic "Be careful, this situation seems fishy" type of sentiment. A simple comment like "This looks like a bad dude" perfectly encapsulates the stoking of fear between colleagues, ultimately making any officer with a gun drawn that much more likely to pull the trigger."

Exactly, that's why I mentioend that cop's "intuition" can't play any role in the decision to shoot someone. I believe that cops do get better at reading situations with experience. But "intuition" is one of those things that we over rate because we tend to forget all the times that its wrong.

#108 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-20 03:21 PM | Reply

I turn on my interior lights (If I get pulled over at night).
I put my wallet on top of my dashboard.
I keep my hands on top of the steering wheel where they are visible.
I am polite and cordial when dealing with the officer.

#59 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

I'm telling you right now, all that movement in the vehicle from the officer's POV makes him/her nervous. Cut the engine and keep your hands high on the wheel. That's it. When the officer approaches next to you and you see his face, then roll the window down and immediately inform the officer that you have (or don't have) weapons and/or drugs in the car. A polite demeanor from there on out will ensure a calm and comfortable encounter with the police. But whatever you do, do not EVER answer the officer's questions beyond "Where you headed?" Anything you say can be used against you, including be truthful. Consider this, for instance, the officer pulls you over and asks "Where you coming from?" You tell him you just came from the Sports Arena. Well, unbeknownst to you, there was a shooting at the Sports Arena and you fit the subject's description. By answering truthfully, you just implicated yourself in a crime (something the fifth amendment protects you against). It's safer for you to answer most (if not all) of the officer's questions by stating: "With all due respect to you and your role in law enforcement, I must exercise my fifth amendment right by not answering your questions in fear of unknowingly implicating myself." Do NOT give a LEO probable cause to arrest you when you have done nothing wrong.

#109 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-20 03:23 PM | Reply

#65 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Yes, I used to work in a cop station, that's where I got to read many cop publications, which is where I got the idea that cops see their job as "good" guys vs. "Bad" guys, who is pretty much anyone they chose to be.
#70 | POSTED BY TFDNIHILIST

This is true. Just watch this interview with a retired Baltimore Police Officer. He makes it clear (along with his emphatic statement that institutional racism exists and that he was a pawn within it) that the police culture separates "the good" and "the bad" based on profiling and, even more so, the police are a separate, not good, not bad, entity that is almost completely free from accountability. The discretion they are afforded really negatively influences the culture and the self-perception of many on the force. They view themselves as not good, not bad, but the enforcers: those who are not beholden to the archaic meme of good vs. evil.

Baltimore PD Officer Speaks the Truth from the Front Lines

#110 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-20 03:32 PM | Reply

Those cops didn't even have any reason to have their guns drawn.

There is no way to know that. The TPD says there was about 2 minutes of interaction between the one officer and the deceased that were not recorded.

A simple comment like "This looks like a bad dude" perfectly encapsulates the stoking of fear between colleagues ...

Possibly but in this instance TPD says the comment was internal to the two persons in the helicopter, it was not broadcast to those on the ground.

#111 | Posted by et_al at 2016-09-20 03:34 PM | Reply

Possibly but in this instance TPD says the comment was internal to the two persons in the helicopter, it was not broadcast to those on the ground.
#111 | POSTED BY ET_AL

Fair enough and appreciate that bit of significant context.

#112 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-20 03:37 PM | Reply

I am polite and cordial when dealing with the officer.
#59 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

But do you answer their questions like a good little boy?
Or do you stand up for your rights like a man?

#113 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 04:24 PM | Reply

From what I can tell, the gunshot occurred just as Mr. Crutcher placed his hands on the car window, he took a second or so to fall you can hear the gunshot on the dashboard camera. I believe the helicopter conversation was over the common police band as I believe you can hear the helicopter conversation in the dashboard view.

#114 | Posted by truthhurts at 2016-09-20 04:34 PM | Reply

Another point, the officer claims Crutcher was not obeying commands. She did NOT put on her overhead lights which would have automatically turned on her dashboard camera. Why didn't she? At a minimum she was approaching a road hazard with the car stopped in the middle of the road. there is no reason for her not to have.

#115 | Posted by truthhurts at 2016-09-20 04:39 PM | Reply

I believe the helicopter conversation was over the common police band as I believe you can hear the helicopter conversation in the dashboard view.
#114 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

Not according to Et Al.

#116 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2016-09-20 04:47 PM | Reply

ahhh correct you can hear some of the police chatter on the helicopter from others, but the copter discussion was not on the public band. I heard the same convo in the dash board camera as I heard on the helo and assumed it was coming from the helo people.

The car window he was at was completely closed, you scan see the blood up the entire way. No way he was reaching into the car.

The reports is that her dashboard camera wasn't on cause her overhead lights weren't on but they definitely were.

Confusion or obfuscation?

#117 | Posted by truthhurts at 2016-09-20 04:54 PM | Reply

"police culture separates "the good" and "the bad" based on profiling and, even more so, the police are a separate, not good, not bad, entity that is almost completely free from accountability"

The reaction of fellow officers and police departments themselves proves that police value preserving their immunity from accountability above all else. In some respects, this extends to members of their family as well.

Why else would "good cops" protect cops who ruin their reputation by abusing citizens either on purpose or due to panic? Why else would departments protect people who cost them tens of thousands to millions of dollars in legal fees and settlements?

Where a fellow officer is involved, good and bad does not matter. Public perception of the department does not matter. Maintaining that immunity from accountability is all that matters.

Once in a while, we see these feel good stories about a cop who bought groceries for a single mother who was shoplifting. Or a cop who did something nice for a child or bought a homeless guy a pair of shoes. But these are empty gestures. What would really prove that cops care about the public more than they do their own sense of entitlement is if cops started intervening in cases where one cop is breaking the law in some way that negatively affects a citizen. It rarely happens and its because their status as being above the law is what they cherish most.

#118 | Posted by Sully at 2016-09-20 04:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Not according to Et Al.

No, according to the TPD. www.tulsaworld.com

#119 | Posted by et_al at 2016-09-20 05:00 PM | Reply

"He also added that the remark wasn't heard by Betty Shelby because it wasn't uttered over radio communications."

So then how'd we hear it???

#120 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 05:02 PM | Reply

This bears repeating:

To answer those questions we have to find out what happened before the police helicopter showed up. When the video starts the police officer is on the passenger side of the police car and Crucher in front of the police car with his hands up. Some interaction clearly happened before the video started.

#98 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

#121 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 05:51 PM | Reply

But do you answer their questions like a good little boy?
Or do you stand up for your rights like a man?

#113 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

It depends on the question.

When asked to provide your license and registration do you comply or do you emulate your internet tough-guy persona and tell the cop to go get bent?

#122 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 05:55 PM | Reply

When asked to provide your license and registration do you comply or do you emulate your internet tough-guy persona and tell the cop to go get bent?

I comply with legal requests.
I don't comply with illegal requests, like answering questions I don't have to.

#123 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 06:04 PM | Reply

Same here.

I explained up-thread that just because I take steps to minimize tension and am cordial and polite doesn't mean I gleefully bend over.

#124 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 06:06 PM | Reply

Police asking questions aren't trying to help you.
They're trying to determine if you might be a lethal threat that needs to be taken out for their own protection.
Do you acknowledge this, JeffJ?

You can also see the same presumption of guilt in Miranda, where anything you say can be used against you, but never for you.

#125 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 06:07 PM | Reply

just because I take steps to minimize tension and am cordial and polite doesn't mean I gleefully bend over.

So you mansplaiend what you do when yo get pulled over... why?
To point out maybe this guy didn't do that, and thus seemed threatening, right?

#126 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 06:08 PM | Reply

I take steps to minimize tension

Me too.
The #1 step I take is being white.

#127 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 06:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

So you mansplaiend what you do when yo get pulled over... why?

Why not?

You are reading WAY too much into it.

It was late at night and I was being conversational.

#128 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 06:16 PM | Reply

It was late at night and I was being conversational.

Bull.
You're saying "Here is how a goody two shoes doesn't get shot by the cops, maybe he should act like me."

#129 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 06:22 PM | Reply

I thought JeffJ's initial advice was from Car and Driver, and would be used to get out of a ticket. I do the same and it's been fairly successful. I've never seen it escalate from there – although many traffic cops are jerks. Why should I take it to another level? It's just a traffic stop.

I do think this is a bad shooting from what I've seen.

#130 | Posted by JimDuncan at 2016-09-20 06:30 PM | Reply

Seems like there are a ton of internet tough guys in this thread who have open disdain for law enforcement.

If these folks' arrogance get them into trouble, then, well, that is why I am a Darwinist.

Best of luck..

#131 | Posted by ReformedNeocon at 2016-09-20 06:33 PM | Reply

I think Sully has it right where cops need to police themselves. I rarely see this. I'm starting to look at things as a numbers game. If we have 300+ million people and if I think X% are nuts, things are going to happen even if X is a very small number - you name the issue. I don't even think you need a degree to become a cop.

#132 | Posted by JimDuncan at 2016-09-20 06:38 PM | Reply

Bull.
You're saying "Here is how a goody two shoes doesn't get shot by the cops, maybe he should act like me."

#129 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

That's not at all what I was saying. I shifted gears because it was late at night and I thought it was a mildly interesting personal anecdote. Nothing more. I now understand why you reacted to it the way you did - you construed it WAY differently than I intended.

During the period of time immediately prior to the video I have no idea as to what happened that caused the police to view him as a serious danger. And I'm not going to speculate.

#133 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 06:39 PM | Reply

I thought JeffJ's initial advice was from Car and Driver, and would be used to get out of a ticket.

You thought correctly.

#134 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 06:40 PM | Reply

I get out of tickets all the time. Respect and admit you were speeding.

You'll get out of it almost always.

#135 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-20 06:43 PM | Reply

You get out of tickets because the ticket is how they start the fishing trip, and you're too little without any outstanding warrants, so they have to throw you back.

#136 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 06:46 PM | Reply

I love how you know Eberly and his personal experiences better than he knows himself.

#137 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 06:51 PM | Reply

What do you think they're doing when they take your license back to the cruiser?
They're calling you in as a suspect to see if you need to be apprehended.
Are you truly this clueless?

#138 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 06:52 PM | Reply

Oh, oh. Or was your complaint that I assumed Eberly is clean, when in truth he's out living the thug life, once he clears the paperwork off his desk.

#139 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 06:53 PM | Reply

As it turns out I suck at getting out of tickets. Almost every time I've been pulled over I've gotten a ticket.

I drive about 30,000 miles per year. I've been pulled over once in the past 5 years and it was for expired tabs. Cruise control is a wonderful thing.

#140 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 06:54 PM | Reply

No, I'm not wanted for anything and I don't act like it.

But being polite to Barney fife goes a long way.

#141 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-20 06:56 PM | Reply

The pull over starts - an overwhelming majority of the time - with a traffic violation.

Of course they run your history once you are pulled over.

#142 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 06:57 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

I think I was guilty of reading way too much into your #136.

Mea culpa.

#143 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 06:59 PM | Reply

As it turns out I suck at getting out of tickets. Almost every time I've been pulled over I've gotten a ticket.

You must suck at sucking up. And even after the State has given you ample opportunity to practice sucking up to an actual judge.

#144 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 06:59 PM | Reply

JeffJ out riding with his kids

www.tzr.io

#145 | Posted by truthhurts at 2016-09-20 07:00 PM | Reply

Damn. OK, I'll bite. Why would someone have an outstanding warrant? I've gone 54 years without one.

#146 | Posted by JimDuncan at 2016-09-20 07:03 PM | Reply

Why would someone have an outstanding warrant?

Because a court ordered one?

#147 | Posted by snoofy at 2016-09-20 07:05 PM | Reply

#144

The last ticket I got was about 6 years ago and it was 1 AM and I was working (night shift).

I got pulled over doing 10 over with zero cars on the road and chose to fight it. The magistrate ripped into me pretty good. As it turned out I caught a HUGE break. A college buddy was clerking at that same court and we met for lunch a week after for purely social reasons. During our conversation I told him about the incident. He smiled when I mentioned the magistrate's name. He then offered to take the ticket to the lead judge of the court and have it expunged (I didn't ask him to do this).

It was a situation where for a short distance the speed limit is 40 and then it jumps to 50. I certainly was doing 50 in a 40 for a short distance but....anyhow, I actually told the cop that I thought it was a '-------- ticket' (my words).

#148 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 07:05 PM | Reply

#145

That's a classic movie scene and a classic movie, Troofy.

Well done!

#149 | Posted by JeffJ at 2016-09-20 07:06 PM | Reply

#146

Cause they're black?

That's the common theme in these threads.

#150 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-20 07:09 PM | Reply

They go back to their squad car to check for warrants, if your license is suspended or if the tags are out of date and to make sure the car isn't stolen.

#151 | Posted by eberly at 2016-09-20 07:10 PM | Reply

Damn. OK, I'll bite. Why would someone have an outstanding warrant? I've gone 54 years without one.

#146 | POSTED BY JIMDUNCAN

I guess you're unaware that because of budget cutting, police and the courts use the law to generate revenue beyond how they used to. Over 20% of drivers have suspended licenses and many poor people don't have the money for fines and tickets then place themselves into that category.

The Ferguson protests weren't just over Michael Brown, they were also about how the local government virtually extort poor people through the ticket/fine system.

Ferguson's True Criminals: The city's police, city, and courts unjustly targeted blacks with a violation of their most basic rights.

#152 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-20 07:11 PM | Reply

Thank you, TonyRoma.

#153 | Posted by JimDuncan at 2016-09-20 07:15 PM | Reply

If his alternator died, the vehicle would cease to be maneuverable until it stopped because the power steering would be gone. The steering might have locked and he had to stop immediately.

#15 | POSTED BY TONYROMA AT 2016-09-19 09:27 PM | FLAG:

That's not how a power steering rack works. You can still rotate the tires, it just takes more effort. Even with electric power steering, you simply lose the boost.

#154 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2016-09-21 08:35 AM | Reply

#154

Not if you have an electronic shift lock. I know, it's happened to me twice. The car was still rolling but the steering wheel was locked.

#155 | Posted by tonyroma at 2016-09-21 08:47 AM | Reply

electronic shift lock.... all you have to do is turn your key to the on position and you have steering back, power or no.

Also, if the alternator died, your car continues to run off the battery, and dies a slow death, more than enough time to pull over. AND... When was the last time you moved into the on coming lane because you were having car problems?

#156 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2016-09-21 12:45 PM | Reply

My alternator died last week on my commute home...I had to manhandle the wheel but I was able to roll the car off the main road and into an adjacent strip mall complex.

On video, I don't see the catalyst to warrant use of deadly force by LE but I have also never seen a person park their vehicle in the direct middle of a two lane road.

The imagery proposed above, that the shooting victim was acting as a highwayman, was a little funny...

#157 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2016-09-21 12:51 PM | Reply

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