Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, September 01, 2014

The government of Israel has announced plans to steal four square kilometers of Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank. The decision to "expropriate" the land south of Bethlehem is believed to be the largest seizure by Israel of land owned by Palestinians in 30 years. The takeover of the land, which includes many olive groves, clears the way for expansion of an Israeli settlement named Gevaot. Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat told www.timesofisrael.com">Times of Israel, "The international community should hold Israel accountable as soon as possible for its crimes and raids against our people in Gaza and the ongoing Israeli settlement activity in the West Bank and East Jerusalem."

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Admin's note: Participants in this discussion must follow the site's moderation policy. Profanity will be filtered. Abusive conduct is not allowed.

This land is your land, this land is my land......

#1 | Posted by mysterytoy at 2014-08-31 03:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Shouldn't the headline read: Israel Steals West Bank Land?

#2 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-31 03:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Then people have the utter gall to condemn Palestinians.

#3 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-31 03:42 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I see the New York times just picked up on the story. RCADE will probably change the link and put it on the front page.

#4 | Posted by mysterytoy at 2014-08-31 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Should just deduct a per acre monetary amount from future "aide" for settlements instead of going "stop, or we'll say stop again".

#5 | Posted by Lohocla at 2014-08-31 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Putin should get in on this action. Russia needs more land in warmer climates. It is there for the taking.

#6 | Posted by bored at 2014-08-31 07:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Its currently a proposal awaiting input for 45days.

If Obama has his stuff together he should be able to hammer on NetNYahoo! I would agree with this pressure.

But my guess would be the US will apply no pressure, they want this, they want to allow the war to go on.

#7 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-31 10:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

If this wasn't a BBC article I wouldn't believe it.

#8 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2014-09-01 08:44 AM | Reply | Flag:

We are the victims here.

- Israel.

#9 | Posted by 726 at 2014-09-01 09:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yeah, Israel definitely wants peace and it's the Palestinians who are standing in the way of that.

#10 | Posted by rcade at 2014-09-01 09:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

Why haven't the DR Iraq-Syria warhawks cried for bombing runs in Israel to prevent a genocide??

When will they arrive in this thread?!?

#11 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-09-01 12:07 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

We need a strategy to defeat Israel! Danni! Corky! What'll we do??

#12 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-09-01 12:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

#12

Ignoring the drama queens might be the first step.

#13 | Posted by Corky at 2014-09-01 12:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

The decision to appropriate land south of Bethlehem is believed to be the largest seizure by Israel in 30 years.

They might already be in our country too! Will there be boots?

#14 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-09-01 12:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

You have me on your mobile alert, don't you?

#15 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-09-01 12:19 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

This is a tragic shame. Benji obviously wants more war and killing far more than he wants peace and what is best for Israel. Total destruction of one's enemies cannot be done without total destruction of yourself.

Sad on so many levels really. The only people who can stop the bloodshed from both sides seem to do all they can to expand the killing and the poor helpless pawns from both sides are being slaughtered to justify this killing.

#16 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-09-01 12:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Shouldn't the headline read: Israel Steals West Bank Land?

Yes. The use of euphemisms like "expropriate" and "appropriate" is a joke. They are stealing the land from Palestinians.

#17 | Posted by rcade at 2014-09-01 12:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Palestinians own nothing. You cannot "seize" land from a squatter.

#18 | Posted by boaz at 2014-09-01 12:48 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Israel has used up their holocaust pity and become the monster.

#19 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-09-01 12:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Palestinians want their state to include all land captured by Israel in 1967

Boohoo. The muslims shouldn't have started a war with Israel.

#20 | Posted by boaz at 2014-09-01 12:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Israel has used up their holocaust pity

What? SIX MILLION were exterminated. American blacks have been playing off of 200 years of slavery. How long do pity parties last?

#21 | Posted by boaz at 2014-09-01 12:53 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

The Palestinians own nothing. You cannot "seize" land from a squatter.

This comment is so dumb I shouldn't ask you to elaborate, but how are Palestinians squatters? The region was predominantly their land -- in 1914, Jews made up only 7 percent of the population. In 1948 there were 462,100 Arabs in the West Bank.

israelipalestinian.procon.org

Calling them "squatters" is like calling Native Americans squatters.

#22 | Posted by rcade at 2014-09-01 01:11 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I don't believe the holocaust is a proper analogy here. I think what Israel is doing to Palestine is more akin to what we did to the Indians or, if you want to use Germany, what they did to Poland and Austria.

This is IMHO about stealing land for "breathing/breeding" room. It is about taking land because of a Manifest Destiny ideal.

It is also something the world isn't happy about, but willing to turn a blind eye too so long as it is just SEmites as victims and yes, Palestinians are Semites too.

#23 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-09-01 01:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

And, if the Palestinians are squatters, they still have rights as we see it.

legal-
dictionary.thefreedictionary.c
om

WE defend squatter's rights in this country.

#24 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-09-01 01:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

Continuous Adverse possession must be continuous for the full statutory period if title is to vest. Continuity means regular, uninterrupted occupancy of the land. Mere occasional or sporadic use is not enough. Continuity is sometimes explained as the daily control of the land by the adverse claimant for the length of the statutory period. If a person has continuously occupied only a part of all the land claimed under adverse possession, he or she will acquire title only to the occupied portion.

#25 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-09-01 01:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Interesting article - Zionism is losing steam from American Jews and from the Christian evangelicals. I'll post the link later. Gotta go.

#26 | Posted by Robson at 2014-09-01 01:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

www.theglobaldispatch.com

why in the world do we give Israel $3 billion in aid? Why? This is a country with a thriving economy, why do we give them a penny?

We give Israel 2x as much as Afghanistan where we are theoretically trying to build a country out of rocks and twigs.

#27 | Posted by truthhurts at 2014-09-01 01:28 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

'Theft' of land by a government is par for the course. Here in the US you can inherit a property [and have the deed] which has been in your family since before the founding of the country and if you cannot pay the land taxes on it the govt will confiscate it and sell it off.

I guess in Gaza since the land is going nowhere, one could say Israel is just technically borrowing the 'utilization' of it for an undetermined period of time.....

#28 | Posted by MSgt at 2014-09-01 01:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Here in the US you can inherit a property [and have the deed] which has been in your family since before the founding of the country and if you cannot pay the land taxes on it the govt will confiscate it and sell it off.

That complaint rings hollow to me. Owning land doesn't give you the right to pay no taxes on it.

#29 | Posted by rcade at 2014-09-01 02:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

That complaint rings hollow to me. Owning land doesn't give you the right to pay no taxes on it.

#29 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2014-09-01 02:10 PM | FLAG: Just pointing out that the word 'own' is not quite what people think it means when it comes to property and the govt. When it comes to land to 'own' actually means to 'rent' by paying your taxes. If one really owns something even a govt should not be able to take it from you.

ps: This was never a complaint [YOUR word], it was just a statement of fact.

#30 | Posted by MSgt at 2014-09-01 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just pointing out that the word 'own' is not quite what people think it means when it comes to property and the govt.

I don't know any homeowner who thinks owning a house means you don't have to pay property taxes. It's a fact of life: Having a government means paying for government. At least we have a chance, unlike many in this world, to vote our politicians out of office.

#31 | Posted by rcade at 2014-09-01 02:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've personally owned three houses over the years [well, me and the banks as I've always sold before paid off]. Currently I believing in renting as that works for me for now. I do intend to buy a little condo, or townhouse when my spouse decides to retire, but intend to pay cash so no mortgage payments in my old age.

As for taxes, I have never had a problem with them, once again, just indicating that the word 'own' as most people understand it does not have the same meaning when it comes to property.

#32 | Posted by MSgt at 2014-09-01 02:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Palestinians want their state to include all land captured by Israel in 1967
Boohoo. The muslims shouldn't have started a war with Israel.
#20 | Posted by boaz

Followed by
What? SIX MILLION were exterminated. American blacks have been playing off of 200 years of slavery. How long do pity parties last?
#21 | Posted by boaz

Boaz you answered your own question.
Pity parties last 55 years and running if you are Israel.
But not quite so long if you are black.

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-01 02:45 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Sounds a lot like what the United States did to the Indians. I wonder if we will ever give back the land stolen from the Indians?

#34 | Posted by mcmlcxx at 2014-09-01 03:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Israel hasn't shown any interest in peace. Sticking the Palestinians in the eye like this is only to keep this conflict going. For decades, they've been grabbing Palestinian land until a map of West Bank Palestinian held land (theirs, BTW) looks like a Rorschach Test

Urgh

#35 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2014-09-01 03:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Palestinians own nothing. You cannot "seize" land from a squatter.

#18 | Posted by boaz at 2014-09-01 12:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

UN Resolution 181 says your dead wrong Boaz.

#36 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-09-01 04:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

Israel actions are the reason for Hamas's existence

#37 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-09-01 04:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

Time to divert the 3 bil we give ti Israel every year to Hamas.

#39 | Posted by Laius at 2014-09-01 06:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not an anti semite
I'm not an anti semite
I'm not an anti semite

but don't push me
please don't push me

#40 | Posted by HeyPal at 2014-09-01 09:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Israel is committing crimes that if done by anyone else we would be bombing them. This is theft in its most basic form. Theft that we indirectly sanction and in turn undermine any moral authority we claim to have. Boaz seems to think that only borders we establish have the force of law. What an extraordinary amount of power he gives himself. Its not theft because we never agreed that it was theirs. Hahahaha. Never mined the fact that Palestinians have lived there for thousands of years, we never acknowledged them as citizens so hence they never were. This is arrogant and frankly the most blatant example of racist hypocrisy I have ever heard of.

#41 | Posted by ron81 at 2014-09-02 01:52 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

B-b-but I....I thought that Israel just wants to live peacefully without bothering anyone else. Why do they steal? Why?

#43 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 10:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

Terrorism = against the american empire

freedom and democracy = same actions times 10 done for the same empire.

Hope and change!

#44 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-09-02 10:37 AM | Reply | Flag:

In other news, Housing starts are up in Israel.

#45 | Posted by shirtsbyeric at 2014-09-02 10:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

Should just deduct a per acre monetary amount from future "aide" for settlements instead of going "stop, or we'll say stop again".

#5 | Posted by Lohocla at 2014-08-31 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just cut them off. They're thieves. Let them stand on their own and see if they want to keep being thieves.

#46 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 10:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

Obama should go on TV and tell the Israelis to give the land back. That they won't receive another dime in aid unless they do!!!!!

#47 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2014-09-02 10:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

When you think about it, it is very hypocritical of us to sanction Russia for taking territory as we help fund Israel's ability to do so.

#48 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 11:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

This is horrible.

#49 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-09-02 11:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

Time to divert the 3 bil we give ti Israel every year to Hamas.

#39 | POSTED BY LAIUS

Yes, so they can plant crops, feed their people, make peace with their neighbors, build roads, bridges, mosques, etc. You retarded?

#50 | Posted by CrisisStills at 2014-09-02 01:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Israel is committing crimes that if done by anyone else we would be bombing them. This is theft in its most basic form. Theft that we indirectly sanction and in turn undermine any moral authority we claim to have. Boaz seems to think that only borders we establish have the force of law. What an extraordinary amount of power he gives himself. Its not theft because we never agreed that it was theirs. Hahahaha. Never mined the fact that Palestinians have lived there for thousands of years, we never acknowledged them as citizens so hence they never were. This is arrogant and frankly the most blatant example of racist hypocrisy I have ever heard of

------------

The same kind that the Nazis used to get rid of jews/gypsies/etc.

#51 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-09-02 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Give Israel a break. They just need a little Lebensraum.

(And I know I just fulfilled Godwin's Law, but it actually does seem appropriate in this case.)

#52 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2014-09-02 01:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The Palestinians want their state to include all land captured by Israel in 1967,"

I guess the "Palestinians," unlike a lot of our DR commandos, realize they don't really HAVE a state. The West Bank was all a part of Jordan until captured by Israel in 1967. The Israelis offered to return all captured land for peace treaties and recognition. They returned the oil-rich Sinai to Egypt but Egypt didn't want the Gaza strip because they didn't want the grief with the pesky "Palestinians." The Jordanians had been having trouble with them as well, even before 1967, and although they made peace they ALSO didn't want the West Bank and those "Palestinians" back. Syria never signed a treaty so Israel still occupies the Golan Heights. Since Jordan has ceded the West Bank, I guess it's actually a part of Israel now. All the "Palestinians" (Jordanians in the West Bank) had to do was recognize Israel's right to exist like Egypt and Jordan did and probably negotiate some agreement regarding Jerusalem. They STILL haven't recognized Israel's right to exist and it may have permanently cost them dearly. Nobody wants the Gaza Strip so I don't know what you might want to call those former Egyptians who live there. Probably just Hamas subjects???

"In June 1967, Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan, the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, and the area known as the Golan Heights from Syria during the Six-Day War. Israel, which was ordered to withdraw from conquered territories and negotiate final borders by United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, annexed East Jerusalem and extended its laws over the Golan Heights.

Jordan continued to have economic influence over the West Bank until the 1980s, when King Hussein unilaterally cut the link between his kingdom and its residents and the Palestinians of the West Bank. Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005."

#54 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The Palestinians own nothing. You cannot "seize" land from a squatter."

Looks like you might know a little history, Boaz. Maybe you can educate some of our little friends here.

#55 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 02:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The Palestinians own nothing. You cannot "seize" land from a squatter."

Looks like you might know a little history, Boaz. Maybe you can educate some of our little friends here.

Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 02:22 PM | Reply

UN Resolution 181 disagrees with the both of you.

#56 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-09-02 02:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Looks like you might know a little history, Boaz.

Yea, very little.

#57 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-09-02 02:28 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#54 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

How does any of this mean that the people living on the land now don't own it?

I swear some of you just go out of your way to play the fool.

Israel doesn't own the land and has no right to it and when they take it they are stealing. If you want to take a pro thievery position then at least be honest about it. When you pussyfoot around it just makes it seem like you know you're wrong.

#58 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 02:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

"UN Resolution 181 disagrees with the both of you."

LOLOL...lots, and lots of those pesky ol' UN regulations totally ignored by everyone, ain't there. I expect Israel might follow one as soon as Russia follows the one on Crimea...LOL...UN Resolution, LOL...yeah, right?

#59 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

"How does any of this mean that the people living on the land now don't own it?"

Like Boaz said, squatters are not "owners." Remember, it was all JORDAN's land until King Hussein gave it up and left it, and the "residents," to Israel. It COULD have become Palestine if those "Palestinians" would ever have recognized Israel's right to exist and stop following a charter calling for erasing it from the Earth. I just can't find any sympathy for them.

"Jordan continued to have economic influence over the West Bank until the 1980s, when King Hussein unilaterally cut the link between his kingdom and its residents and the Palestinians of the West Bank."

#60 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 03:00 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"Israel doesn't own the land and has no right to it and when they take it they are stealing."

Stealing??? It looks to me kinda like they have "annexed" the land with Jordan's approval and are now kinda building on it somewhat like what we did in El Paso for instance. Sometimes countries have to pay a price for their stubbornness and extreme stupidity.

#61 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 03:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Like Boaz said, squatters are not "owners.""

They're not squatters. They've been living there all along. Just because Boaz pulls the term squatters out his butt doesn't make it applicable. "Crap made up by Boaz" and reality are two different things.

"Remember, it was all JORDAN's land until King Hussein gave it up and left it, and the "residents," to Israel."

That never happened. Nobody gave the land to Israel. Israel has no legal right to it.

"It COULD have become Palestine if those "Palestinians" would ever have recognized Israel's right to exist and stop following a charter calling for erasing it from the Earth. I just can't find any sympathy for them."

Its not up to Israel to give them what is theirs. Israel doesn't recognize their right to exist either. The Palestinians have dug their own hole in many respects but that doesn't make the Israelis the "good guys" here. They're all bad guys. If you're going to criticize the Palestinians when they do wrong they be fair and have standards for Israel too instead of making crap up about how land that they are stealing belongs to them.

"Jordan continued to have economic influence over the West Bank until the 1980s, when King Hussein unilaterally cut the link between his kingdom and its residents and the Palestinians of the West Bank."

So Jordan gave up on them (for good reason, IMO) and left them on their own. Nobody gave it to Israel. And IF that were true, why hasn't Israel just claimed the whole thing? Not even Israel uses the excuse you're making.

#62 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 03:10 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"When you pussyfoot around it just makes it seem like you know you're wrong."

Nawww, I just live in reality and don't pay attention to whiny PC addicts who go strictly by emotions and "feelings." I feel sorry for the people who suffer because of their leadership...But THEY elected 'em.

#63 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 03:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Stealing??? It looks to me kinda like they have "annexed" the land with Jordan's approval"

Yes, taking property that doesn't belong to you is "stealing". Look it up. You're making stuff about Jordan giving the land to Israel too. That never happened.

And in reality, Israel woud never claim to be annexing the West Bank. For one thing it would be illegal. For another, it would make their status as an apartheid state undeniable unless they granted the residents full rights.

#64 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 03:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The lands of Jordan/Israel/Palestine were a part of the Ottoman Empire until it fell in WWI. There were no nations in this land under Ottoman rule.

"This land was assigned to the UK temporarily to get it ready for self-government; and the Brits gave it the temporary name "The British Mandate of Palestine". The name Palestine had not been used for at least 400 years, nor had Israel. Jordan was the name of a river, not a nation, until modern Jordan [first called TransJordan] was founded.

The League of Nations and the British planned a Jewish homeland in the Mandate of Palestine, but a lot of Arabs objected. So after compromises, over 3/4 of the Mandate of Palestine was used to form TransJordan; West Bank was part of this nation. The Gaza Strip was given to Egypt; and the rest became Israel."

#65 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-09-02 03:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Nawww, I just live in reality and don't pay attention to whiny PC addicts who go strictly by emotions"

Then why is your position premised on a lie? Why do you make claims about annexation that Israel would never make?

You're making stuff up because you have an emotional need for things to different than how they really are.

#66 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 03:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Its not up to Israel to give them what is theirs. Israel doesn't recognize their right to exist either."

I don't think Israel has a charter to wipe them off the Earth...do they?

"The Palestinians have dug their own hole in many respects but that doesn't make the Israelis the "good guys" here."

They're STILL digging that hole...that's their problem. They rely on sniffling bleeding hearts...like you...to force Israel to give them their way.

"Nobody gave it to Israel. And IF that were true, why hasn't Israel just claimed the whole thing?"

Israel annexed it...with Jordan's acquiescence...and didn't "steal" it. Israel has offered to give it to the "Palestinians" under certain conditions and even allows them some autonomy. That's more than anyone conguering Israel would do.

tr.v. an·nexed, an·nex·ing, an·nex·es
1. To append or attach, especially to a larger or more significant thing.
2. To incorporate (territory) into an existing political unit such as a country, state, county, or city.
3. To add or attach, as an attribute, condition, or consequence.

#67 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 03:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Yes, taking property that doesn't belong to you is "stealing"."

You call it stealing but Jordan willingly gave it up. That's not "stealing" regardless of whatever you wanna call it.

"So after compromises, over 3/4 of the Mandate of Palestine was used to form TransJordan; West Bank was part of this nation."

Riiiight...and as it says, "this nation" gave up the West Bank part even after Israel offered to return it. You just don't seem to get it that Jordan wanted nothing to do with those "Palestinians" any more.

"The Gaza Strip was given to Egypt;..."

Riiiiight...and Egypt didn't want it back for the same damn reason...even after it was offered.

Sorry, Sully, I've reached really, really deep and I just can't find the sympathy. I can sure see how Jordan and Egypt made out though all.

#68 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 03:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

""Stealing??? It looks to me kinda like they have "annexed" the land"

Distinction without a difference.

#69 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-09-02 03:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Why do you make claims about annexation that Israel would never make?"

C'mon, Sully, you're a smart boy. First off, Israel has stated they'll never give up East Jerusalem. They have ANNEXED it. The rest has never been completely annexed because they've been negotiating its return under certain conditions. However, if they're expanding building settlements it might get to the point where they will no longer do that...blame it on the hard-headed stubbornness of "Palestinian" refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist. Same applies to Gaza...where there are NO Israeli settlements and where they continue to fire rockets across the border. No sympathy here, Sully, and you ain't changing my position so give it up.
Now, you wanna talk about the legality of Russia annexing...oh, I mean stealing...Crimea and attempting to steal East Ukraine? They're doing those thefts WITHOUT Ukraine first assaulting Russia or consenting to give them up. Those two "thefts" would suit your criterion much better than the "Palestinian" situation. Hell, we might even come to an agreement on those.

#70 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 03:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Israel is to Palestine

as

The United States of America is to The Indigenous Nations of Native Americans.

#71 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-09-02 03:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I don't think Israel has a charter to wipe them off the Earth...do they?"

Its what they are trying to do. Likud is the controlling party in Israel and their platform includes refusing the right of a Palestinian state to exist. And their actions are trying to ethnically cleanse the West Bank. You're going to be penalize Hamas for being more honest about their actions than Likud is?

"They rely on sniffling bleeding hearts...like you...to force Israel to give them their way."

You can screw off with that. You're the one making arguments based on made up "facts" out of your emotional need for Israel to be "right". In reality, the land doesn't belong to Israel and they are not entitled to it.

"Israel annexed it...with Jordan's acquiescence...and didn't "steal" it."

You're lying. That never happened. Israel never annexed it and Jordan never approved Israel's ownership of it. The land is universally recognized as belonging to to Palestinians with the exception of Israeli extremists and their fanboys.

"Sorry, Sully, I've reached really, really deep and I just can't find the sympathy"

Who cares about your sympathy? We're talking about fact. Israel is settling land that doesn't belong to it. It is stealing. Your emotional needs and sympathies are irrelevant. Factually, Israel is stealing land. Nobody cares if you feel deep down in your heart that this is OK. And you don't get to make up your own facts either so stop lying about Jordan approving Israe's imaginary annexation of the West Bank.

#72 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 03:58 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"C'mon, Sully, you're a smart boy."

C'mon what? You're making stuff up. I could be very stupid and still know that you're factually incorrect by just looking it up.

You want to pretend that Jordan ceded that land to Israel, which is not true or even close to true no matter how many ways you want to spin it. When Israel takes land that is not theirs, they are stealing. End of story.

#73 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 04:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Clownshack, your understanding of how liberal Zionists view Israel... in terms of both legitimate self defense issues and illegitimate land grabs... is dismally lacking. Though your hatred of all things Israel shines through very clearly.

#74 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-09-02 04:08 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

Though your hatred of all things Israel shines through very clearly.

It's muffled by your cheers for the blood of Palestinian children.

#75 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-09-02 04:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

"And you don't get to make up your own facts either so stop lying..."

You obviously have a little trouble with definitions, Sully. "Lying" is defined as saying something KNOWN to be false. I truly believe what I have said here is true. Since it IS what I believe to be true, I'm not lying. In all political correctness, you have offended me and I would prefer you say you believe I'm "mistaken" and offer me an apology.

"Your emotional needs and sympathies are irrelevant."

LOL...we conservatives aren't so emotionally eaten up as are you "progressive" whine bags. You seem to be the one in this discourse expressing all these "emotional needs," not me. You can find a lot of "emotional sympathy" while I have expressed I can't find any. LOL

#76 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 04:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Post me one statement I have ever made "cheering" for the death of chilren anywhere, let alone Palestinian children. Your lack of understanding and strong emotion has taken control of your rhetoric. Take a step back and repeat the words "intellectual honesty" to yourself over and over again as a kind of mantra until such time as you are able to honestly listen to what other voices in the debate are saying. Cuz right now your posts on this topic are pretty tedious a la Eddie or BL2.

#77 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-09-02 04:18 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

"Though your hatred of all things Israel shines through very clearly."

I see you've addressed this subject with Clownie which is a nose dive into futility. He is without a brain cell and is entirely emotional, kinda like Sully, who at least has a couple of brain cells. Good luck with that.

#78 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 04:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

"You obviously have a little trouble with definitions, Sully. "Lying" is defined as saying something KNOWN to be false. I truly believe what I have said here is true. Since it IS what I believe to be true, I'm not lying. In all political correctness, you have offended me and I would prefer you say you believe I'm "mistaken" and offer me an apology."

You've been corrected enough times that at a certain point you knew what you were saying is untrue and you kept saying it. That's lying.

"LOL...we conservatives aren't so emotionally eaten up as are you "progressive" whine bags. You seem to be the one in this discourse expressing all these "emotional needs," not me. You can find a lot of "emotional sympathy" while I have expressed I can't find any. LOL"

You brought up feelings and whether or not you could muster up sympathy, not me. I didn't mention feelings at all until you brought it up. I was perfectly willing to keep this all fact based until you started babbling about sympathies and PC and liberals and whatnot.

If we just stuck to facts and left emotional babble out of it you'd have nothing to say at all.

#79 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 04:26 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

He is without a brain cell and is entirely emotional, kinda like Sully, who at least has a couple of brain cells. Good luck with that.

#78 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-09-02 04:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

Considering that I trashed your now abandoned 'facts' about the West Bank, you better hope I'm not an idiot. Because if I'm an idiot, you're something less than an idiot....

#80 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 04:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Its what they are trying to do. Likud is the controlling party in Israel and their platform includes refusing the right of a Palestinian state to exist. And their actions are trying to ethnically cleanse the West Bank. You're going to be penalize Hamas for being more honest about their actions than Likud is? - Sully

If we just stuck to facts and left emotional babble out of it you'd have nothing to say at all.
#79 | POSTED BY SULLY

Is that a self-referential post?

The fact is the land is in the CZone as defined by Oslo agreements, the PA have ratified this treaty. If a Palestinian owns the land he/she may bring suit.

Many Palestinians brought suit against Israel and won when the "wall" was being assembled.

This is a process within the treaty between PA and Israel, not a land grab. To frame it as such is not being honest, and pretty much is babble.

But looking at the decision of Israel's civil administration in a wider diplomatic context, it should be remembered that the Oslo II Interim Agreement, signed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat at the White House in 1995 (and witnessed by the EU), established a division of the West Bank into three areas: Area A, where the Palestinians had full control, Area B where there was mixed Israeli and Palestinian security control but full Palestinian civil control, and Area C, where Israel had full military and civilian control. Israeli responsibilities in Area C included the power of zoning and planning. The territory which Israel declared as state land is within Area C.
jcpa.org

#81 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-09-02 05:05 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#81 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-09-02 05:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

The stuff you posted doesn't support Israel settling the West Bank at all even if you want to pretend it does. "Zoning and planning" =/= "Move our people in and keep the land".

Also, Israel's current head of state openly admits to undermining the Oslo Accords and both sides have violated them.

#82 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 05:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oslo II defines Area C as:

″areas of the West Bank outside Areas A and B, which, except for the issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations, will be gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction in accordance with this Agreement″.

Does anyone think that really means "Israel can just settle this land and keep it, L0L!"?

#83 | Posted by Sully at 2014-09-02 06:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

"intellectual honesty"

Thats rich coming from the guy that, just a few days ago, was just calming the Palestinians deserved what they got and shame on anyone that questions Israel.

I bet "something" is gonna happen again allowing Israel to bomb the West Bank in the upcoming future.

#84 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-09-02 06:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

Also

"... Though your hatred of all things Israel shines through very clearly.
#74 | POSTED BY MODER8 AT 2014-09-02 04:08 PM | FLAG: | NEWSWORTHY 1"

Followed by

Take a step back and repeat the words "intellectual honesty" to yourself over and over again as a kind of mantra until such time as you are able to honestly listen to what other voices in the debate are saying.
#77 | POSTED BY MODER8 AT 2014-09-02 04:18 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Give me a break. You're so full of it.

Good to see you got one of your sock puppet accounts to flag you NewsWorthy.

pathetic charlatan.

#85 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-09-02 06:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Clownshack: You have attributed statements to me, but refuse to show me (or anyone) where I ever in any way cheered the death of Palestinian children. Along the same lines I have never said "shame on anyone who questions Israel". You are making stuff up and lying. I gladly acknowledge there are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Israel. But valid self defense is not one of them.

In any case, you have falsely attributed statements to me. I find that offensive. Post them or retract your claims. Put up or shut up, fanatic.

#86 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-09-02 06:43 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

No Citation Necessary.

#87 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-09-02 06:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Clownshack: Well. Okay then. If the name of your game is to make bald faced lies about other posters, got it. Say no more. You think attributing false statements to others is just fine. So noted.

#88 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-09-02 06:53 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I gladly acknowledge there are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Israel. But valid self defense is not one of them.
#86 | Posted by moder8

Surely then it will be no challenge for you to identify just one invalid action by Israel against any of her neighbors under the pretext of self-defense?

#89 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-02 06:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hey, bold faced lies guy, where's your proof of:

"Though your hatred of all things Israel shines through very clearly."

you're such a victim.

#90 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-09-02 06:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Snoofy, I have no problem saying that unilaterally deciding to build settlements on the 900+ acres of land mentioned in the article at the top of this thread is an invalid action bu Israel against one of it's neighbors. I have no problem saying that for even one second. It is people like you and Clownshack who HATE Israel so viscerally that you are unable to logically or fairly scrutinize their actions and why they take them.

#91 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-09-02 07:01 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

#78 | Posted by jestgettinalong

you're the only one whose emotion (undifferentiated fear of, and hatred for, all things muslim) causes you to become irrational.

#92 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2014-09-02 07:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Snoofy, I have no problem saying that unilaterally deciding to build settlements on the 900+ acres of land mentioned in the article at the top of this thread is an invalid action bu Israel against one of it's neighbors.
#91 | Posted by moder8

I'm not the one who flagged it, but "Newsworthy" indeed.
Bonus points if all the settlements are invalid.
But I won't push you. :)

#93 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-02 07:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

You see, I think people like you and Clownshack truly misunderstand the viewpoint of liberal Zionists such as myself.

For example, so long as Hamas is firing rockets into Israel aimed for civilian populations, then it is legitimate self defense for Israel to use great force to attempt to target those individuals and kill them. Unfortunately, since Hamas chooses to hide among civilian populations and to hide their weapons in UN facilities, collateral damage includes women and children. This truly breaks the hearts of liberal Zionists such as myself, but it is the fault of Hamas, not Israel. All Hamas has to do is stop firing those rockets at innocent Israeli civilians, and the IDF would immediately stop the military defensive actions which have caused so much death. But Hamas knowingly chooses not to.

On the other hand, as a liberal zionist I have no reluctance to point out that it is a unilateral provocative action by Netanyahoo, Likud and the Israeli government in general to sanction the expansion of settlements on the disputed landed mentioned in the article. Nothing good can come of it. Such action is an invitation to disenfranchised and seemingly impotent Palestinians to lash out.

The point is, there is no contradiction in recognizing that certain situations are the fault of Hamas, and the other situations are the fault of the Israeli government. It is strange to me that most Israel haters have a difficult time understanding that.

#94 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-09-02 07:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is people like you and Clownshack who HATE Israel so viscerally that you are unable to logically or fairly scrutinize their actions and why they take them.

#91 | Posted by moder8

Well, it's like this:
Add a gallon of wine to a barrel of vinegar and you've got vinegar.
Add a gallon of vinegar to a barrel of wine and you've got vinegar.
This isn't a balancing act or a continuum.
So long as Israel refuses to comply with international law, they will never be right.
All Israel has to do is adhere to their 1967 borders.
That is not unfair scrutiny.

And I understand why they take the actions they do. I also understand why they don't try to justify those actions to the international community. It's because there is no legal justification for them. On the other side of the coin, the things they could find international justification for, such as eliminating Hamas, they won't do. Why should they send a few IDF soldiers to their deaths when the problem is more or less contained and Israel is protected behind Iron Dome? Much safer for Israel that the people of Palestine be ruled by terrorists than the terrorist threat be eliminated.

#95 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-02 07:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hamas would not exist if it weren't for Israel's egregious actions. Do You HONESTLY think had Israel not stole lands not accorded to it by the UN there would even BE a Hamas????

#96 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-09-02 07:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm curious, how did a liberal Zionist feel when a somewhat less liberal Zionist assassinated the Israeli Prime Minister?

It must not have been all that bad, seeing as you didn't sever ties with Zionism.

Or are you like the Michael Bolton from Office Space. Why should you change your name, it's the other guy that sucks?

#97 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-02 07:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

The individual who assasinated Rabin was NOT a liberal in any sense of the word. He was a murderous fanatic. It shows a lack of sophistication to assume all zionists share the same viewpoints as to what is and is not acceptable behavior. Most (not all) liberal zionists understood and were willing to defend Israel's actions in their own self defense last month. Most (not all) liberal zionists question the wisdom, the motiviation and the timing of Netanyahoo's decision to expand the settlements onto disputed territory at this juncture.

#98 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-09-02 07:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hamas would not exist if it weren't for Israel's egregious actions. Do You HONESTLY think had Israel not stole lands not accorded to it by the UN there would even BE a Hamas????
#96 | Posted by LarryMohr

Before they became militant towards Israel, Hamas received financial support from Israel in the early 80s because their Islamist views were a counter to the pro-Soviet PLO; the PLO being the biggest threat to Israel at the time. (Right around the same time we were funding Mujhadeen in Afghanistan to fight the USSR, who later became Al Qaeda, and with about the same results.)

Zionists and other Israel apologists like to pretend that didn't happen, or that it's no longer relevant.

In reality, the tail has been wagging the dog for decades.

#99 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-02 07:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

lol. Regardless of whatever Hamas once was many decades ago, it is now a violent terrorist organization dedicated to killing Israelis and wiping Israeli off the map. THAT is the reality that wags the dog's tail.

#100 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-09-02 07:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

The individual who assasinated Rabin was NOT a liberal in any sense of the word. He was a murderous fanatic. It shows a lack of sophistication to assume all zionists share the same viewpoints as to what is and is not acceptable behavior.

Are you saying that one can be a Zionist and not be for Eretz Yisrael?

Perhaps if you could point me to some sort of a description of what it means to be a liberal Zionist, that would be helpful.

Does it simply mean you recognize Israel's right to exist? In that case I'm a (liberal) Zionist too, as I recognize the legitimacy of the UN, regardless of how stupid or smart their diktats may be.

#101 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-02 07:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Regardless of whatever Hamas once was many decades ago, it is now a violent terrorist organization

You make it sound like that happened in a vacuum.
In reality it happened under an IDF boot.
Surely you must know this.

#102 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-02 07:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you read about Moses,Joshua,David etc,that's how you do it.course then you killed every man women and child and all the beast of the land,but wtf it is written

#103 | Posted by bruceaz at 2014-09-02 07:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

dedicated to killing Israelis and wiping Israeli off the map. THAT is the reality that wags the dog's tail.
#100 | Posted by moder8

Is it too much to ask that Israel rectify their mistake?

Or do the Palestinian people get to suffer for eternity because Israel bet on the wrong horse and now it's gone mustang?

I guess the people who bought houses at Love Canal should have just lived with it, seeing as the toxic waste was dupmed there many decades ago. Does that about sum things up? How very "liberal" of you!

#104 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-02 08:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

I apologize Moder8.
Look like I lied when I said I wasn't going to push you.
Have a nice day. :)

#105 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-02 08:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

The individual who assasinated Rabin was NOT a liberal in any sense of the word. He was a murderous fanatic. It shows a lack of sophistication to assume all zionists share the same viewpoints as to what is and is not acceptable behavior. Most (not all) liberal zionists understood and were willing to defend Israel's actions in their own self defense last month. Most (not all) liberal zionists question the wisdom, the motiviation and the timing of Netanyahoo's decision to expand the settlements onto disputed territory at this juncture.
#98 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-09-02 07:43 PM

You are referring to the deliberate undermining of a Unity government by Israel, with a terror campaign that arrested over one thousand innocent non-combatants, raids and air strikes destroying hundreds of their homes. Territories "disputed", annexed and colonized by Israel without any recognition of a Palestinian government is a convenient excuse to exercise land theft - because that is what it honestly is. The deliberate, methodical genocide whereby Arabs are second-class citizens in their own home towns in a newly minted ever-expanding apartheid Israel.

Can you quote the portion of the Hamas charter dedicated to wiping out Israel? I'm fairly certain you will always find the words Zionist regime, rather than Israel is the "enemy".

Can you help me understand the voting distinctions between Mizrahi, Sephardi and Ashkenazi? From what I understand specific "caste" were treated much better in Arab nations than in pro-apartheid Israel.

A a liberal you might not know, but can you guess how many slaves each orthodox expects to own?

#106 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2014-09-02 09:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

And thank GOODNESS the unarmed "Sea Hitler" flotilla crew were outright murdered by IDF and you liberal Zionists were right there to protest.. the possible delivery of toys, food and medical supplies. Zionism is a disease.

#107 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2014-09-02 09:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

The IDF t-shirts with the a reticle on the pregnant belly of a Palestinian sure does seem appropriate.. for a genocide-loving murderous culture of "peaceful" Zionists. They didn't even bother to draw a suicide vest as an "excuse'.

#108 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2014-09-02 09:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

en.wikipedia.org


Liberal Zionism
Main article: General Zionists

General Zionism (or Liberal Zionism) was initially the dominant trend within the Zionist movement from the First Zionist Congress in 1897 until after the First World War. General Zionists identified with the liberal European middle class to which many Zionist leaders such as Herzl and Chaim Weizmann aspired. Liberal Zionism, although not associated with any single party in modern Israel, remains a strong trend in Israeli politics advocating free market principles, democracy and adherence to human rights. Kadima, however, does identify with many of the fundamental policies of Liberal Zionist ideology, advocating among other things the need for Palestinian statehood in order to form a more democratic society in Israel, affirming the free market, and calling for equal rights for Arab citizens of Israel.


To which one might add,
lol. Regardless of whatever Zionism once was many decades ago, it is now a violent terrorist organization dedicated to killing Goyim and wiping Palestine off the map.

#109 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-09-02 09:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

nobody's falling for benji mcnutyyahoo's propaganda anymore.

he's one of the biggest threats to the status quo

#110 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2014-09-03 02:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

nobody's falling for benji mcnutyyahoo's propaganda anymore.

he's one of the biggest threats to the status quo

#110 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2014-09-03 02:25 AM

Nobody, that is, except all of the US Congressmen who gave Netanyahoo
eight standing ovations when he last visited the Congress. Unless and until the elected representatives of the American people stop supporting the Israeli theft and slaughter of the Palestinian people nothing will change.

#111 | Posted by Sord at 2014-09-03 06:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

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