Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Thursday, August 28, 2014

Max Fisher, Vox: There are two things happening between Ukraine and Russia right now. First, Russian and Ukrainian leaders are meeting in Belarus to negotiate a peace deal in the Ukrainian conflict that Russia insists it has nothing to do with. Second, Russian military forces are crossing the border into Ukraine in what is clearly a hostile invasion and act of war. That includes Russian artillery, Russian tanks, Russian-trained irregular forces, and even uniformed Russian soldiers who have admitted on camera that they are Russian military ordered to invade by their commanders.

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danni

 

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Admin's note: Participants in this discussion must follow the site's moderation policy. Profanity will be filtered. Abusive conduct is not allowed.

Ukraine was given assurances that they would be defended from invasion when they agreed to give up their nuclear weapons in 1992. Well, they are being invaded right now and despite the obvious lies told by Putin it isn't even being disguised this time, it is Russian tanks and troops in the thousands. Oh, and where are the liars claiming this is all a CIA operation today?

#1 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-28 10:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm going to turn on CNN. Nothing like a hot cup of coffee and a war in real time on your tv set to start off your day.

#2 | Posted by CalifChris at 2014-08-28 10:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

What do you suggest Danni? I agree that we did promise Ukraine that if they gave up nukes we would defend them. Does that make Obama weak? Should he send in troops? Or are you going to say it's a NATO problem?

#3 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 10:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

What we need now is a reset in Russian relations.
thenypost.files.wordpress.com

#4 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-28 10:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

"What do you suggest Danni?"

I would start by expelling all of their diplomats from this country, canceling every Russian citizens visa that is visiting the US, cutting off 100% of export and imports from and to Russia, talking to the committee that plans the next World Cup set to be held in Russia and getting that cancelled and then I'd form a committee of people to come up with more ideas on how we could make the Russian people understand that their dictator is making them very unpopular around the world. Then I'd get on the phone and tell Merkel that her exports to the US are in jeopardy if she doesn't find some courage to stand up to Putin too. This is not a time for weak leaders either here or in Europe.

#5 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-28 10:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

#5 You're suggesting a paper attack. Vlad don't care. Vlad a honeybadger. If Vlad want Ukraine, Vlad take Ukraine.

No Danni, you're going to have to wage war against Russia....is that what you want? You want to engage Vlad and his mechanized army?

We're not talking about mujaheddin living in a cave in Tora Bora.

#6 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-28 11:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

#6 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-28 11:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

Putin isn't the only gangster in Russia though. And many of them care way more about their personal fortunes than they do making Russia look much stronk. So a "paper war" could work in that if you cost enough Russian billionaires enough money through sanctions, they may off Putin themselves.

#7 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-28 11:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

"No Danni, you're going to have to wage war against Russia....is that what you want? You want to engage Vlad and his mechanized army?"

No, I'm not saying that but we should do pretty much everything possible short of that. We should make the world aware that we consider Putin and all of his diplomats to be nothing but liars who there is no reason to have relations with because we can't believe anything they say anyway. We should also do like Sully says and cost their billionaires in every way we can think of. I also think that we should now consider supplying Ukraine weapons and ammunition. We should also help their military with drones for intel just like the Russians are now doing. There are lots of things we should now be doing.

#8 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-28 11:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

I expect Vlad has a mob army too. Who knows, he might strike first inside his own border. Russians love killing internal enemies.

No, Danni's going to have to make a decision on attacking the Russian army and sparking WW3.

#9 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-28 11:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

We should make the world aware that we consider Putin and all of his diplomats to be nothing but liars

Pot?... meet kettle. Do we have the ability to defend the Ukraine? that was a lie.

We should also do like Sully says and cost their billionaires in every way we can think of.

Russia and China are most likely working to torpedo the US dollar and maybe the Euro. I doubt they care.

We should also help their military with drones for intel just like the Russians are now doing.

Vlad will pull the trigger on a fighter jet and blame the aggression on the US. I don't believe their weapons are really rusty cold war leftovers.

Look...the USSR fell apart. Mother Bear Russia has regained strength and wants her cubs back. The US can squawk all it wants but is virtually powerless to do anything to intervene.

We can't even stop a rag-tag band of sheep herders with rifles much less an army with naval and air forces. we need to cease this global mess we've created and make peace in advance with whomever is going to control the world....because it will NOT be the US.

We've blown it Danni. We look like idiots to the world.

#10 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-28 12:09 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"We've blown it Danni. We look like idiots to the world."

So has everyone else. Part of the reason we judge ourselves so harshly is because we are the only nation trying to do anything about anything. It's easy to criticize the US from the perspective of Germany which in the face of Putin's aggression doesn't even have the guts to enact any real sanctions. The time will come when they will wish they had and it isn't too far in the future. Poland gets it though.

#11 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-28 12:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

The one thing we can do is to inform the Russian people about what their dictator is doing. The one thing Putin fears is honest news getting through to his peons.

#12 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-28 12:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Russian Moms Denounce Putin's Not-So-Secret Ukraine Invasion

As Russia troops and tanks make an apparent bid to open the land route to annexed Crimea, discontent is growing in the motherland about the obvious but oft-denied war in Ukraine.

MOSCOW, Russia – Where U.S. President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel have failed to make Russian President Vladimir Putin acknowledge his ever-more-overt invasion of Ukraine and think about pulling back, Valentina Melnikova, the head of Russia's famous Soldiers' Mothers Committee, might just have a chance.

Early Thursday morning, Melnikova started getting phone calls from Russian army bosses. All of them, from the deputy defense minister to the paratrooper division commanders, wanted to meet with the great matriarch of the Russian military.

She had accused the entire high command, along with Commander-in-Chief Vladimir Putin of invading Ukraine and of committing a crime against Russian citizens by sending Russian soldiers to "the bloody battlefields" without declaring the war, without signing legal papers with the servicemen, without letting Russian mothers know where exactly their drafted sons ended up dying.

www.thedailybeast.com

Keep reading, it gets better. She cuts Vlad a new one.

#13 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-28 01:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

Russia has NUKES. You want war against Russia??

#14 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-28 04:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

America back in Iraq, Russia back in the Ukraine. What's past, so they say, is prologue.

#15 | Posted by scalawag at 2014-08-28 04:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

America back in Iraq

Relax....It's just a pretext to regime change in Syria. Some want you to believe we're rescuing hostages and other fantastical story lines.

but don't be fooled. we're about to invade Syria.

#16 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-28 05:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Keep reading, it gets better. She cuts Vlad a new one.
#13 | POSTED BY CORKY

Vlad invasion bad! Obama invasion good!

#17 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-28 05:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Shirtless Vlad!

#18 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-28 05:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

Where is the reset button?

#19 | Posted by homerj at 2014-08-28 05:44 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

If we just appease the Russians this one time Neville Obama will negotiate a peace for our time.

#20 | Posted by visitor_ at 2014-08-28 05:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Vlad invasion bad! Obama invasion good!

#17 | Posted by DeadSpin

Bush invasion good! Vlad invasion bad!

#21 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2014-08-28 07:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

Al-Jazeria says the goal of the Russian troops and separatists is to create a narrow land bridge between Russia and Crimea.

#22 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2014-08-28 07:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

We should send in mercenaries (ahem, I mean contractors) with drones and guns.

If Russia can do it, so can we.

#23 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2014-08-28 07:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

This is the 198th Russian invasion of Ukraine. In the last hour.

*update 199th

Concerns are deepening ever deeper than before, to the point that they are being put on paper.

#24 | Posted by aescal at 2014-08-28 07:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

#17 | POSTED BY DEADSPIN

Do let us know when the US tanks start rolling into Syria, drama major.

#25 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-28 07:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Extremists both right and left have been comparing Vlad favorably over Obama on those important human rights issues like, oh say, Moscow Eddie... or on the right because they prefer authoritarian despots anyway.

With Russian tanks rolling into the Ukraine today, all the False US Flag Conspirisists , left and right, appear to have something on their faces.

#26 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-28 07:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

You would think the United States had permanently lost the moral ethical AND legal right to condemn ANY nation for invading ANYONE with Dubya's invasion of Iraq. Seems to me everything is fair game now.

#27 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-28 07:58 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Do let us know when the US tanks start rolling into Syria, drama major.
#25 | POSTED BY CORKY

Does Obama have a strategy here like he does for ISIS?
Obama Says ‘We Don't Have A Strategy Yet' for Fighting ISIS
time.com

Seems to me vacation could have waited? But hey.... its only a job right.

#28 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-28 08:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Vlad invasion bad! Obama invasion good!

#17 | Posted by DeadSpin

Obama is not invading Iraq. Bush invaded Iraq.

You seriously don't understand the difference?

You really need to turn off Fox News...it is rotting your brain housing group.

#29 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-28 08:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

"We have no strategy here, yet, either"

#30 | Posted by wunderkin at 2014-08-28 11:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Seems to me vacation could have waited? But hey.... its only a job right."

You aren't stupid enough to actually believe that he disconnected from issues while he was on "vacation." It doesn't serve you well to pretend you are dumber than you really are just to enable yourself to attack Obama over stupid things like a vacation.

#31 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 08:40 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Seems to me everything is fair game now."

Seems to me that is an excuse for America to sit by and watch Putin invade his neighbors.

#32 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 08:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

I have to say that I am ashamed of our President and our country today. We do nothing at all as Putin invades Ukraine? I fear that our cowardice today is indicative of our nation's future which doesn't look bright at this shameful moment.

#33 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 08:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

Danni, the president had a press conference yesterday to announce he doesn't have a strategy when it comes to ISIS in Iraq. We already know that he doesn't have a strategy for Ukraine either. Our allies doubt his resolve and are hedging their bets at this point b/c he can't rally any support to damage Putin for his invasion and can't even rally support to kill jihadist in Iraq that have threatened Europe, Uk, and the US.

#34 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-29 09:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

I have to say that I am ashamed of our President and our country today. We do nothing at all as Putin invades Ukraine? I fear that our cowardice today is indicative of our nation's future which doesn't look bright at this shameful moment.

#33 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2014-08-29 08:49 AM | FLAG:

The Donbas battalion is accepting American volunteers.

Buy a plane ticket and help them out.

#35 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-29 09:42 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Danni, the president had a press conference yesterday to announce he doesn't have a strategy when it comes to ISIS in Iraq. We already know that he doesn't have a strategy for Ukraine either. Our allies doubt his resolve and are hedging their bets at this point b/c he can't rally any support to damage Putin for his invasion and can't even rally support to kill jihadist in Iraq that have threatened Europe, Uk, and the US."

In his defense, it would be stupid and irresponsible for him to say he has a clear strategy for ISIS right now. No real strategy can be created without enough intelligence and without the commitment from ME nations to put aside their differences to combat their common enemy.

Secondly, our allies don't doubt our commitment to combat Putin, they doubt their own. Merkel is more concerned with German economic growth than with the threat Putin makes, same with France. These nations are acting foolishly and will regret their cowardice. Obama and America have been willing to enact much tougher sanctions but we don't have the support of our European allies because they depend on the gas from Russia.

#36 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 09:43 AM | Reply | Flag:

I have to say that I am ashamed of our President and our country today. We do nothing at all as Putin invades Ukraine?

How many wars do you want us in exactly?

#37 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 09:43 AM | Reply | Flag:

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Russia can not afford to give up its submarine fleet and must fight to preserve their functionality. There is no way to operate Crimea without a secure land path to supply it. Otherwise, Putin has gone out of his way to avoid the belligerency and interference in the domestic affairs of independent nations, since the fall of the Berlin Wall, that characterizes US foreign policy. Sanctions are hurting the EU economy and the US superpower does not care. The US continues to itch for war. It remains to be seen how the EU and Russia will resolve this problem.

#38 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-29 09:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Russia can not afford to give up its submarine fleet and must fight to preserve their functionality. "

Wow. You justify any action of Russia, now topping 2,000 deaths of Ukraine's people, because Russia "needs" a land path to the stolen territory of Crimea. You are ridiculous Nutcase. Putin is a diabolical lying dictator who somehow fools some Americans into disregarding his crimes and turning him into a victim somehow. It's getting a bit tiresome, what does he have to do before you question your loyalty to him instead of your own country?

#39 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 10:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

"How many wars do you want us in exactly?"

Did John Kennedy go to war over the Cuban missile crisis? I'm not advocating war but I am also not advocating weakness.

#40 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 10:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

Did John Kennedy go to war over the Cuban missile crisis?

He was willing and about to. Are you really comparing missiles 90 miles off our coast to a civil war in the Ukraine?

#41 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 10:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not advocating war but I am also not advocating weakness.

You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.

Albert Einstein

#42 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 10:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

"He was willing and about to. Are you really comparing missiles 90 miles off our coast to a civil war in the Ukraine?"

Ok, then let's compare it to West Berlin and the Berlin airlift. There are many examples I could cite that illustrate the strength I am talking about.

#43 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 10:29 AM | Reply | Flag:

You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
Albert Einstein
#42 | POSTED BY KANREI

I would say he was wrong, the ColdWar is a perfect example.

#44 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-29 10:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

Ok, then let's compare it to West Berlin and the Berlin airlift.

West Berlin was ours. Strike two.

There are many examples I could cite that illustrate the strength I am talking about.

Waiting on one that applies.

#45 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 10:32 AM | Reply | Flag:

the ColdWar is a perfect example.

#44 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS AT 2014-08-29 10:31 AM

The Cold War was far from cold. Just because the US and Russia used proxy fighters (like Reagan did in South America) doesn't mean there was no fighting going on.

#46 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 10:34 AM | Reply | Flag:

In his defense, it would be stupid and irresponsible for him to say he has a clear strategy for ISIS right now. No real strategy can be created without enough intelligence and without the commitment from ME nations to put aside their differences to combat their common enemy. - Danni

Especially when golfing and fundraising. The mans gotta job after all.

Its a great thing to announce...... "I got nothing".....

And you worry about our cowardice in this situation. Obama has sat on his butt for 6 years, never doing anything but speeches.

An ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure.

#47 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-29 10:34 AM | Reply | Flag:

When Ukrainian troops enter Russia and bomb their cities it will be justified but since neither Ukrainian people nor Russian people want war with each other we should be asking why the world is not more loudly condemning Putin? Why is our President not calling this liar out more forcefully? Why is our Ambassador still in Moscow and why do we allow their diplomats to remain in Washington? Our U.N. Ambassador should explain to the world that it is pointless to have diplomatic relations with a nation that invades another nation even as their President shakes hands with the President of that other nation. If their words mean nothing then there is no point in diplomatic relations and we should end them until their words can be trusted.

#48 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 10:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

The Cold War was far from cold. Just because the US and Russia used proxy fighters (like Reagan did in South America) doesn't mean there was no fighting going on.

#46 | POSTED BY KANREI

We prepared for nuclear war, it never came.... proxy wars were proxy wars, but the big one never happened.

#49 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-29 10:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

We prepared for nuclear war

I don't believe we did. We threatened it, but you can't prepare for destroying everything. MAD is not a plan.

#50 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 10:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Obama has sat on his butt for 6 years, never doing anything but speeches."

Nothing but a GOP talking point. Obama has reluctanly finished George Bush's wars, revived the economy destroyed by Bush and Greenspan and fought with the most obstructionist Congress in history which was even willing to allow our credit rating as a nation to be damaged. Now he faces some really unimaginable situations not of his making and he is not acting rapidly enough to satisfy some of us. On ISIS he can't act without the willingness of ISIS's most imediate victim nations and they have not, as yet, decided to put their differences aside to confront the common danger.
With Ukraine, it is much the same. Until Germany and France decide to get tough with Russia there isn't much we can do alone. Obama has been willing, the Europeans have been more concerned about economic growth which I doubt will return until the Russian threat is eliminated.

#51 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 10:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Why is our President not calling this liar out more forcefully?"

Because he's always been somewhat deferential to European leaders, who care more about access to Russian resources than they do the Ukraine.

#52 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-29 10:43 AM | Reply | Flag:

Ukraine would not be in the situation it is today had they not given up their nuclear weapons and the parties that convinced them to give them up with assurances of defense in the event of an invasion have a real obligation to them today. Sorry, it's inconvenient, but it is still the truth. I think we Americans need to hear from Bill Clinton, and Hillary too on this. He signed the treaty, what did that treaty actually mean? Did he realize at the time that it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on? Was he lying when he signed it?

#53 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 10:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Because he's always been somewhat deferential to European leaders, who care more about access to Russian resources than they do the Ukraine."

Probably true but he needs to stand up to them now. Perhaps he should start by ordering all American military to immediately leave Germany. Why should we have thousands of troops stationed there when they won't lift a finger to help their neighbor. We should give them the same amount of protection they offer their neighbors.

#54 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 10:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

#48 The same reason he is not calling out Hamas, Hezbollah, South American dictators, African dictators, Boko Haram, ISIS (ISIL when fully realized), kid glove foreign policy driven by naivete and a poor understanding of the motivations of evil groups.

#55 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-29 10:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

#53 Another "do something, anything, even if it really has no meaning or impact" moment from a Democrat.

#56 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-29 10:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

"#48 The same reason he is not calling out Hamas, Hezbollah, South American dictators, African dictators, Boko Haram, ISIS (ISIL when fully realized), kid glove foreign policy driven by naivete and a poor understanding of the motivations of evil groups."

Are you kidding? REpublicans actually funded and supported, gave weapons to most of the groups you named. Your idea of foreign policy is more like belief in comic book heroes not the real Presidents that were in office not that long ago.

#57 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 10:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

#57 Just because Republicans funded and supported, gave weapons to most of those groups does not mean the President cannot and should not call those groups out.

They need to be called out just like Putin. Call em out. Don't stand for injustice. When you talk about war on women in the U.S., address the war on women across the globe by these groups.

Call these groups out. Don't be afraid, lead.

Foreign policy should be that we do not tolerate these groups one iota. Do not support, do not sugar coat, do not let off the hook.

Obama has been lackadaisical on this. Others have too, but we are dealing with Obama and why he doesn't confront Putin in this matter... his lackadaisical manner is why.

#58 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-29 11:01 AM | Reply | Flag:

"why he doesn't confront Putin in this matter... his lackadaisical manner is why."

I don't attribute it to "lackadaisical" manner at all, I attribute it his desire to preserve peace at all costs which actually, IMHO, endangers real peace.

#59 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 11:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

Perhaps he should start by ordering all American military to immediately leave Germany. Why should we have thousands of troops stationed there when they won't lift a finger to help their neighbor. We should give them the same amount of protection they offer their neighbors.

#54 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 10:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

We should but we won't.

#60 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-29 11:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

I don't think we have troops in Germany to protect Germany. We have troops there because Germany started every world war. It is a reminder not to do it again because we are already there.

That said, probably don't need them there anymore.

#61 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 11:12 AM | Reply | Flag:

I say we fill up as much of Ukraine with U.S. troops as possible. Stalemate. That's what Putin doesn't want. A stalemate. A cease in his movement forward. Putin doesn't want war. He is making Obama blink and seem weak and Obama doesn't even know it.

#62 | Posted by boaz at 2014-08-29 11:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

"He is making Obama blink and seem weak and Obama doesn't even know it."

I think Obama does know it but doesn't seem to have the guts to do anything about it. We should send the troops in Germany to Ukraine.
Ukrainians are deeply disappointed with the US right now, so is Poland.

#63 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 11:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

What a difference an hour makes, huh?

I'm not advocating war but I am also not advocating weakness.

#40 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2014-08-29 10:19 AM

TO

We should send the troops in Germany to Ukraine.

#63 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2014-08-29 11:26 AM |

#64 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 11:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

What a difference an hour makes, huh?

I think Danni realizes there are some with whom simple voice threats do not work. I'm not advocating war, just a build up of may be one or two American Brigades in Ukraine to stop the forward momentum. Maybe U.S Air Force flights over Ukraine. That's leadership. Something Putin hasn't seen yet.

#65 | Posted by boaz at 2014-08-29 11:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not advocating war,

Just advocating sending US troops into an active war zone? You expect them to stand by and do nothing then?

#66 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 11:40 AM | Reply | Flag:

WE should be honoring the commitments we made to Ukraine in 1992, which Putin has violated by invading. If we don't, and I realize we probably won't, then NATO is meaningless from now on. Poland already understands that.

#67 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 11:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

then NATO is meaningless from now on.

NATO has been meaningless since at least the formation of the EU. Certainly since it was used to justify air attacks during the Libyan civil war.

#68 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 11:42 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Just advocating sending US troops into an active war zone? You expect them to stand by and do nothing then?"

Before we send any troops anywhere we should be cutting off diplomatic relations with Russia, and expelling all of their diplomats, seizing any bank accounts or other property we can. As far as I can tell right now, we are doing absolutely nothing meaningful at all.

#69 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 11:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

One problem with that part of the world is that over the centuries the borders have been so fluid, with land going from one claiming nation to the next, that at this point everybody feels entitled to their neighbor's territory. Especially Russia which has a history of simply gobbling up all of it.

#70 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 11:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

we should be cutting off diplomatic relations with Russia, and expelling all of their diplomats, seizing any bank accounts or other property we can.

That would be an act of war by the US against Russia. At this point, diplomacy is the only way and cutting all relations is not diplomacy; it is a pretext for combat.

#71 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 11:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

"One problem with that part of the world is that over the centuries the borders have been so fluid, with land going from one claiming nation to the next, that at this point everybody feels entitled to their neighbor's territory."

Sort of like our borders with Mexico. Peoples Republic of Donetsk is much like the Republic of Texas. The referendum they held on secession was probably just as real as any they held in Texas.

#72 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 11:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

IMHO, IF NATO acts, then we can join in. Not lead the charge as we always do, but play along. Until NATO acts, I feel we cannot act on our own against Russia without it being a pretext for greater hostilities.

#73 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 11:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

Kanrei, I cannot imagine any scenario whereby we become involved with the Ukrainian conflict. That would be like Russia aiding Mexico in an armed battle with the US. We're talking about playing with fire.

#74 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 11:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

"That would be an act of war by the US against Russia. At this point, diplomacy is the only way and cutting all relations is not diplomacy; it is a pretext for combat."

Hardly an act of war and there is no point in diplomatic relations with a nation that denies the reality of their invasion. We need to loudly proclaim that we don't have diplomatic relationships with known obvious liars and do our best to make sure the Russian people hear us. From what Corky posted in #13 they are already getting the idea that their great leader is a dictatorial liar willing to spill their sons' blood without even acknowledging what they are doing. He doesn't even tell his troops where they are going. A liar like this is bound to trip himself up at some point.

#75 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 11:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

MOd,

That would be using logic and common sense. One thing we know for sure is that neither logic nor common sense are in the driver's seat of US policy. We react to opinion polls more than facts. Remember, this is an election year.

#76 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 11:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Kanrei, I cannot imagine any scenario whereby we become involved with the Ukrainian conflict."

Then our treaty in 1992 means nothing, therefore no treaty signed by us means anything, therefore NATO means nothing.

#77 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 11:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

I hate to write off the Ukrainians, but the bottom line is we should not be in any way getting involved in a military conflict between Russia and the Ukraine. Not our fight. Not our neighborhood. I wish the best for the Ukrainians but this is not a conflict we should be involved with.

#78 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 11:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

therefore NATO means nothing.

#77 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 11:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

You're getting there....

#79 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-29 11:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

Danni, the real question is what was President Bush thinking when signed that treaty? Did he really believe the US and Europe should fight a potential nuclear war over a region which historically is not ours to claim in the first place?

#80 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 12:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Danni,

Are you talking about the Lisbon Protocol?

en.wikipedia.org

Doesn't say we will defend them.

Ukraine has not joined NATO as of yet. They are pretty evenly split if they even want to.

#81 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 12:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

Here is the full Protocol

www.state.gov

Can't see where it says we go to war to defend them.

#82 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 12:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

we should be cutting off diplomatic relations with Russia, and expelling all of their diplomats, seizing any bank accounts or other property we can.

That would be an act of war by the US against Russia. At this point, diplomacy is the only way and cutting all relations is not diplomacy; it is a pretext for combat.

#71 | POSTED BY KANREI

I have to agree with Danni on this. Its too late to push the reset button now. And we cannot send in troops. Doing something like cutting off diplomatic relations with Vlad does send a very strong message and is obviously still in the realm of diplomacy. And it gives Ukraine and our Allies a message too. Besides Vlad has already committed Act of War against a supposed Ally of ours. We do have that right.

#83 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-29 12:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

This mess all goes back to Brzezinski, who asserted that the Ukraine was the key to fatally crippling Russia, as their breadbasket and transportation crossroads. The USA wants war, but the EU does not. Saying this doesn't mean Putin is an angel, only that his behavior is less belligerent than the USA, in this case. I'm also pointing out that control of Crimea depends on establishing a secure land route. This is a life and death struggle for Russia I contrast to a strategic move by the USA. I hope the EU comes up with a peaceful solution, because the last thing we need is WWIII.

#84 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-29 12:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

Can't see where it says we go to war to defend them.
#82 | POSTED BY KANREI

The "promise" from Russia came in 1994, this document is 1992. Its known as the Budapest Memorandum. But there is no enforcement mechanism if violated.

#85 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-29 12:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

They might be able to find a way to either find or place ISIS in the Ukraine.

I'm 67 years old. I am old enough, and cynical enough, unfortunately, to know how Casus Belli, in regards to war and rumors of war, works.

#86 | Posted by scalawag at 2014-08-29 12:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Ukrainians are deeply disappointed with the US right now, so is Poland...."

So is the Czech Republic, Germany, Israel, Britain....In fact, I have a hard time thinking of a nation besides Russia which ISN'T disappointed in him. Must be because of all that resetting and flexibility he promised them.

#87 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-29 12:19 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#83 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY

This is an on going theme isn't it?

The classic, "what can we do now?". When what should have been done should have happened way before we got here.

They should be focusing on action to slow future action by the Russians.

Instead we go play golf, blame bush, and goto weddings....

#88 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-29 12:21 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

1994 Budapest Memorandum most certainly does contain security assurances made by Russia, United States and Great Britain, made in exchange for Ukrain agreeing to give up its nuclear weapons. They gave them up reluctantly trusting the other parties to the agreement which, we can now see, was a huge mistake and one that other nations will see as our probable action in other areas of the world. I would imagine Kim Jung Un is viewing this situation with great interest. So is China and we can probably expect them to be a bit more adventurous in the future because of it.

en.wikipedia.org

#89 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

"only that his behavior is less belligerent than the USA, in this case."

Posted as his soldiers invade Ukraine and kill Ukrainians. Ridiculous.

#90 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sorry Danni... from your link

According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[14] In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.[15]

#91 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-29 12:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Instead we go play golf, blame bush, and goto weddings...."

I hate it that I have to agree with you right now.

#92 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Russia was perfectly content with the Ukraine as a friendly neighbor. The USA instigated a coup to overthrow a corrupt, but legally elected President and installed a puppet Government. What would we do if Russia did the same in Canada or Mexico? Either Russia will establish a secure trade route with Crimea or we will have WWIII, started by the USA.

#93 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-29 12:26 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

"Sorry Danni... from your link"

Technicality not appreciated by Ukrainians who were suckered into giving up the weapons which would have definitely prevented Putin's actions of today. They have no legal recourse against the U.S. but then no other nation is going to believe any commitment we make in the future and our enemies will definitely take advantage of that fact. This cowardice on our part will have consequences around the world and will, IMHO, eventually lead to another world war because the U.S. has been the only balancing power since WWII and now we are abdicating our position as such leaving no one to take our place. We now have the largest and most useless military machine in the world.

#94 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

At this point, diplomacy is the only way

Not according to Putin. He is using troops, we should be using troops.

Troops on the ground is the only thing that's going to remedy this or bring it to a stalemate. That's because Putin is one step ahead of us and already with troops on the ground. And moving..

#95 | Posted by boaz at 2014-08-29 12:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The USA instigated a coup to overthrow a corrupt, but legally elected President and installed a puppet Government"

Ukrainians protested peacefully in Kiev, why you persist in pretending they weren't smart enough or self-actualizing enough to know what they wanted is beyond my comprehension. You insult them every time you post that Russian propaganda. As they are fighting and dying at the hands of Putin and his Russian thugs you could at least give them credit for knowing what they wanted for their own futures. Calling them puppets of our CIA is a low blow they don't deserve even if it does fit into your cynical view of the world which, in this case, just isn't so.

#96 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

INSANE IN THE UKRAINE!

#97 | Posted by shirtsbyeric at 2014-08-29 12:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

#93

That's sad/hilarious.

#98 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 12:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Either Russia will establish a secure trade route with Crimea or we will have WWIII, started by the USA."

And then what is to stop them from having a secure trade route to any other place they choose? And it is ridiculous to claim that the US is starting any war after the fact that Russia already did. YOu sort of pretend to believe them that they aren't actually invading a sovereign nation. At this kpoint it gets a little ridiculous and sad don't you think?

#99 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

"This cowardice on our part will have consequences around the world and will, IMHO, eventually lead to another world war because the U.S. has been the only balancing power since WWII and now we are abdicating our position as such leaving no one to take our place. We now have the largest and most useless military machine in the world."

WOW!!!!!!!! Who is this really? Who's posting in danni's name?

#100 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-29 12:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

Russia was perfectly content with the Ukraine as a friendly neighbor.

As long as it was Pro Russian.

or we will have WWIII, started by the USA.

I didn't know the U.S. invaded Ukraine. We started all this? Why aren't you holding Russia responsible for starting WWIII?

#101 | Posted by boaz at 2014-08-29 12:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

-his behavior is less belligerent than the USA

Non-belligerent tanks... what a concept.

Extremists both right and left have been comparing Vlad favorably over Obama on those important human rights issues like, oh say, Moscow Eddie... or on the right because they prefer authoritarian despots anyway.

With Russian tanks rolling into the Ukraine today, all the False US Flag Conspirisists , left and right, appear to have something on their faces.

#102 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 12:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

When you consider the number of Ukrainians already killed by the Russians, this attack is a much bigger tragedy to their nation than 9-11 was to ours.

#103 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sounds to me like someone's itching for war.

#104 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 12:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

"He is using troops, we should be using troops. "

Boaz, Corky, and Danni, interventionists all.

#105 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 12:45 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#99 | POSTED BY DANNI

He is an anti-American, anti-capitalist zealot and any attempt at logical debate will ever result in a sane result. Just as with any ISIS devotee or other extremist, debate, negotiations or compromise are futile.

#106 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-29 12:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

#105

Nulliidian, all liar.

#107 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 12:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sounds to me like someone's itching for war.

Problem is Larry, you see me "itching". I see Putin. That's the fundamental difference between a liberal and an conservative. You blame America first. I don't..

#108 | Posted by boaz at 2014-08-29 12:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Boaz, Corky, and Danni, interventionists all.

Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 12:45 PM | Reply

Sad isn't it.

#109 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 12:49 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

According to the Budapest memorandum, it is the actions of the United States and the EU that also violated Ukraine's sovereignty.

Overt interference, as well as covert interference, follows and trails the two like slime follows and trails a moving snail.

You cannot tell me that EU and America have not meddled in the affairs of the Ukraine over the past several years. The name Victoria Nuland comes to mind. Associate membership into the EU comes to mind. Yanukovych's ouster comes to mind. I remember 1989 and 1990. I remember James Baker's NATO "promise" to Russia. I think Russia's actions have been, over the past year or two, been pretty easy to figure out. Pretty logical too, if I wisely apply American-style common sense to the actions of those around the world, to understand their acts of self-interest and selfishness better. But I lived through the many freezes and thaws of the Cold War. I know the Russia that perhaps many don't remember.

As of late, and as usual, our foreign policy over-steps, and then steps in it with one foot. And then, 'Hubris' as they say, takes over, and we step into it with the other foot and find our selves saying "@!#$"

#110 | Posted by scalawag at 2014-08-29 12:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Sad isn't it."

Politics make strange bedfellows.

#111 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 12:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Sounds to me like someone's itching for war."

That someone seems to be Putin.

#112 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Problem is Larry, you see me "itching". I see Putin. That's the fundamental difference between a liberal and an conservative. You blame America first. I don't..

#108 | Posted by boaz at 2014-08-29 12:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

I didn't blame America first. Your reading comprehension sucks. What I HAVE said is America has forever forfeited the right to condemn any country for invading another.

#113 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 12:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Sounds to me like someone's itching for war."

You're sure right about that, Larry. They're scratching that itch with all kinds of weapons in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Gaza and all over the place as we speak. It's a good thing we have an Arab Spring in the ME and a reset with flexibility in Europe, ain't it? Otherwise, that "tranquility ol' Josh spoke of would be gone...right?

#114 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-29 12:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

That someone seems to be Putin.

#112 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:52 PM | Reply | Flag

Technicality not appreciated by Ukrainians who were suckered into giving up the weapons which would have definitely prevented Putin's actions of today. They have no legal recourse against the U.S. but then no other nation is going to believe any commitment we make in the future and our enemies will definitely take advantage of that fact. This cowardice on our part will have consequences around the world and will, IMHO, eventually lead to another world war because the U.S. has been the only balancing power since WWII and now we are abdicating our position as such leaving no one to take our place. We now have the largest and most useless military machine in the world.

#94 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

No Ma'am that would be You Danni.

#115 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 12:54 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"We now have the largest and most useless military machine in the world."

So we should use it, is that your argument? Your neocon policies will set the world on fire.

#116 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 12:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

I can't believe how Corky and Danni have misunderstood this entire situation. (Boaz misunderstanding, however, doesn't surprise me at all.) It is not a matter of "blaming" either the US or Russia first. It is matter of understanding the geopolitical circumstances that created the current mess. Such an understanding makes clear that the US to a fairly large degree instigated this situation. Having instigated it, we can either go to war under the lie of "protecting" the Ukrainians, or, back off from a situation we should never have gotten into in the first place.

#117 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 12:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

The libs have gone full-tilt neocon. They're ready to bomb, invade, and go toe-to-toe with nuclear vlad. It's really a remarkable policy shift...like the earth flipping its axis.

#118 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-29 12:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

-Politics make strange bedfellows.

Yeah, you and Pat Buchanan, rofl!

#119 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 12:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

IMHO this is a moment when "appeasement" is the appropriate word, historically how has appeasement worked for the world?

#120 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Your neocon policies will set the world on fire.

I hate to point out, sir, that these are liberal policies these days and, um, the world is on fire...

#121 | Posted by boaz at 2014-08-29 12:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The libs have gone full-tilt neocon. They're ready to bomb, invade, and go toe-to-toe with nuclear vlad. It's really a remarkable policy shift...like the earth flipping its axis."

Simplistic nonsense, we haven't even come close to exhausting all of the non-military actions that we, along with our allies, could exert on Russia but that would require some sacrifice by countries such as Germany. If we are not going to do anything at this point then let's dissolve NATO and quit the pretense.

#122 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

-the US to a fairly large degree instigated this situation.

A moronic misunderstanding of history.

We knew from the time a few years ago when Putin invaded Georgia and threatened to hang the Pres there by his nads what this agenda is; the reestablishment of the old Soviet Union.

To think that anything we did CAUSED him to have this goal is ludicrous beyond belief.

#123 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 12:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

#120 Horribly, but it is Obama's current SOP. Appease special interest groups, appease combatants, appease horrible dictators, etc.

#124 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-29 01:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Flag:

When you consider the number of Ukrainians already killed by the Russians, this attack is a much bigger tragedy to their nation than 9-11 was to ours.

#103 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

You'd think the tragedy was when EU/US backed Kiev political elite staged a violent takeover of the elected government. Then proceeded to have a farce of an election where they denied access to every politician that wasn't part of their insider group, signed the country to a multi-billion dollar IMF loan that the average Ukranian will be lucky to ever see any benefit from (though they'll be paying for it) and then proceeded to shell disenfranchise even the people on their side out in the east by indiscriminately shelling and starving whole cities.

#125 | Posted by daniel_3 at 2014-08-29 01:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

My son, he is what my father used to call "wayward". That is, he does things I do not like. But I love him. He is my son.

He grew up restless. I could discern his weaknesses at a very young age. I tried to correct him many times. He used to say something like, "Pop, you are always blaming me for something." And I would answer something like, "I blame you because I want you to correct your actions. If I don't, you won't, and I will be forced to accept blame for your wrongdoings. And if you won't, despite my chiding; my harsh words, then it is you who are at fault for what you do now and in the future."

An American who questions the words and actions of the leaders and ideologues of country done in His or Her name is in a similar vein. AMERICA is not a singular, concrete entity. It's entire active state relies on the proclamations and interpretations of AMERICANS.

America is not our overseer. WE are ITS overseers. And as such, we may act like parents and criticize and try to correct. But we still love it. We still care for it. Deeper than our own lives.

Some ideologues will liken ev erything, every dispute, to a side: left or right. They will also say doggerel like "you blame America first", as if you can blame someTHING for the stupid, short-sighted actions of someONE or a group of someBODIES. But that all is simply hogwash.

#126 | Posted by scalawag at 2014-08-29 01:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

IMHO this is a moment when "appeasement" is the appropriate word, historically how has appeasement worked for the world?

Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 12:56 PM | Reply

That's the same exact label the right wingers slimed you and I with with our opposition to the Iraq War. Now You are sliming those of us that are saying this isn't our fight nor should we get involved. I must be stuck upside down on a roller coaster.

#127 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 01:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

"If we are not going to do anything at this point then let's dissolve NATO and quit the pretense."

I'll vote for that if you'll agree to dissolve the UN along with it. See, danni, we CAN reach agreement through reason and compromise.

#128 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-29 01:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Reading the hawkish statements of Danni and Corky, I fear that Hillary Clinton may indeed be a shoo-in for the DNC presidential nomination. It is exactly this type of right-of-center quasi neo-con views that have done our nation so much damage over the past fifteen years.

#129 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 01:09 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

Reading the hawkish statements of Danni and Corky, I fear that Hillary Clinton may indeed be a shoo-in for the DNC presidential nomination. It is exactly this type of right-of-center quasi neo-con views that have done our nation so much damage over the past fifteen years.

#129 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 01:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

THIS THIS THIS Times a gazzilion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!

#130 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 01:11 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

The world is not on fire. One of the most peaceful times in human history we experience right now. And it has nothing to do with liberals either way, you partisan hack named BOAZ.

#131 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-29 01:12 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"Reading the hawkish statements of Danni and Corky, I fear that Hillary Clinton may indeed be a shoo-in for the DNC presidential nomination"

"God save us all"

--George McGovern

#132 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 01:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

"You'd think the tragedy was when EU/US backed Kiev political elite staged a violent takeover of the elected government."

Yeah, Ukrainians aren't savvy enough to figure out that connection to the EU wouldn't offer them a brighter future than the connection to Russia.
That conspiracy theory nonsense is insulting to Ukrainians.

#133 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 01:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

- hawkish statements of Danni and Corky,

Caricaturing others rather than retorting posts like #123 is why you are so irrelevant.

OK, it's just one reason why.

#134 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

"It is exactly this type of right-of-center quasi neo-con views that have done our nation so much damage over the past fifteen years....."

While the leftist-"progressive" policies of this administration have brought "tranquility" to the Middle East and excellent relations in Europe and Asia. Not to mention the major economic/domestic improvements and race relations in our own country. Does that about cover it for you....?

#135 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-29 01:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Caricaturing others rather than retorting posts like #123 is why you are so irrelevant.

134 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:15 PM

Being called irrelevant by Corky is like being called stupid by Eddie or a troll by Goatman.

#136 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 01:18 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 2

"Do we sit on the sidelines and watch an entire people be slaughtered or do we marshal military forces and move in quietly to put an end to it?"

-George McGovern, in August 1978.

What George McGovern really said:

www.theatlantic.com

And how it applies to ISIS today.

#137 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

#137 SPAM

#138 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 01:20 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

#136

Still not defending your position because you can't is like being Moder8.

#139 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

"What George McGovern really said:

www.theatlantic.com"

SPAM

#140 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 01:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

#140

Weeks now, and still not able to formulate an argument... nothing new about that.

#141 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

"While the leftist-"progressive" policies of this administration have brought "tranquility" to the Middle East and excellent relations in Europe and Asia."

It was not the "progressive" policies of this President that removed Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and thereby created the chaotic situation that now exists in that country and that, in some ways, brought about the demands for democracy in Egypt, Libya and Tunisia which also ended up in chaos. Obama came into office believing he would be able to assist those nations develop into democracies which was pretty naive and he failed in his attempts but that isn't the same thing as shattering the status quo which existed before the Iraq invasion and thereby exposing America to the consequences of the Pottery Barn rule.

#142 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 01:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Vladimir Putin threatened to hang Georgia leader 'by the balls'

Vladimir Putin threatened overthrow Georgia's leader and "hang him by the balls" during talks with French President Nicolas Sarkozy at the height of the war between Russia and Georgia."

www.telegraph.co.uk

There is no question of what Putin's long term goals have been, including the Ukraine.

To say that the US CAUSED Russian tanks to roll there is stupidity personified.

#143 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

Again, Corky, you are grossly simplifying. The US actively pursued a policy to bring the Ukraine into the West's orbit. The Ukraine, for much of it's history has been a part of Russia. Over a third of the Ukrainian population is ethnically Russian. The largest and most powerful Russian naval base is located on the Crimea. To think that Russia is not going to do anything in it's power to prevent the US from replacing them in the Ukraine is naive. We did everything we could to undermine the earlier pro-Russian government. We have done everything we can to split the nation away from it's historic docking. To somehow claim that Russia is being irrational in feeling threatened and challenged by our actions in the Ukraine is simply ridiculous and dishonest.

#144 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 01:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

-The US actively pursued a policy to bring the Ukraine into the West's orbit.

We didn't do it using tanks, deary. And what we did do was in reaction to Putin's long-held goals there.

Simplistic conspiracy theories notwithstanding.

#145 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

The classic, "what can we do now?". When what should have been done should have happened way before we got here.

Of course, we could have done something earlier. Too bad Bush didn't do something after he looked deep into Pootins eye and got a sense of his Soul. Just like in Georgia when Bush realized he had no leverage with which to influence Russia then we have no leverage with which to influence Russia now.

Fact is, we could do something now. Just like we could have then. The question is, will we? And will it be stupid and meaningless? Again? Or will we implement a well thought out comprehensive plan in coordination with our allies this time.

Oh what the heck am I thinking?

As Reagan would say...

Let the bombings begin!

#146 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-29 01:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Weeks now, and still not able to formulate an argument... nothing new about that."

You have no argument. You have no proof that McGovern would have endorsed Hillary's neocon policies. Your attempt to associate him with Hillary is dishonest. Nuff said.

#147 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 01:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

If Russia tried a tenth of the ---- in Mexico, we have been trying to do in the Ukraine then there would be a nuclear war.

But Corky, in his comfy Neocon coat will deny it to the end. At this moment how can Corky honestly even consider yourself a liberal?

#148 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 01:37 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Former Top Putin Advisor Sounds The Alarm: Putin Has Already Declared War On Kiev

Andrei Illarionov, formerly Vladimir Putin's top economic advisor (and personal envoy to the G8) , has warned in an interview with Ukrainian television that Putin has already declared war on Kiev. Putin's war is being conducted by Russian Spetsnaz (special operations) forces and KGB (now called FSB) agents and is aimed at toppling the pro-Western government in Kiev.

(3/2014)

www.forbes.com

So, the Devil US didn't MAKE him do it?

Amazing, huh?

#149 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Politics make strange bedfellows.

#111 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2014-08-29 12:50 PM

Yes indeed. Danni and Boaz both saying we need to put boots on the ground.

We should send the troops in Germany to Ukraine.

#63 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2014-08-29 11:26 AM

Just sad. Thank G-d the voices from the Neocon Left are growing smaller and smaller.

#150 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

- Nuff said.

Best you can usually do, lmao.

"McGovern is best known for his landslide defeat in the presidential election of 1972 and his impassioned opposition to the Vietnam War.

Six years later, when he became the first senator to advocate U.S. military intervention next door in Cambodia, to stop the Khmer Rouge's ghastly slaughter of between 1 and 3 million people, hawks were incredulous.

The Wall Street Journal called McGovern's stance "mind-boggling."

But as Samantha Power explains in A Problem from Hell, McGovern saw no contradiction in his positions. Vietnam, in his mind, had been a profoundly misguided application of American might to prevent a communist-led independence movement from liberating its country from Western control. Cambodia was genocide.

In his view, the U.S. had a particular responsibility to prevent the latter because its war in Vietnam had helped cause the trauma and instability on which the Khmer Rouge seized."

Vietnam/Cambodia then sounds a lot like Iraq/ISIS today.

#151 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

" At this moment how can Corky honestly even consider yourself a liberal?"

Because he supports gay marriage and gun control?

#152 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 01:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Again, Corky, you are grossly simplifying. The US actively pursued a policy to bring the Ukraine into the West's orbit."

We did the same thing with China, we're doing the same thing with Vietnam. We don't do this to pull these nations away from Russia, we do these things to create economic interdependence between nations which prevents the liklihood of wars. We would have happily done the same thing with Russia itself, in many ways we have tried but under Putin they have been sort of isolationist with their oligarchs fearing too much contact with the west might put ideas in the minds of the population who might just start questioning how these individuals ended up owning all the formerly state owned industries.

#153 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 01:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Obama came into office believing he would be able to assist those nations develop into democracies which was pretty naive and he failed in his attempts but that isn't the same thing as shattering the status quo which existed before the Iraq invasion and thereby exposing America to the consequences of the Pottery Barn rule."

While many mistakes were made over the first years in Iraq, it was pretty well stabilized with the surge that took place in 2007. As has been debated ad infinitum, Obama's decision to withdraw ALL troops, even giving dates etc, is the main cause of events in Iraq at present. We can argue the decisions of the past for the rest of the year, but what concerns ME at this point is...what in hell is he gonna do now!? He OBVIOUSLY is in waaaaay over his head at this point and can't make ANY coherent decisons except to get back to campaigning and fund-raising....his forte. Even YOU seem to recognize that, danni, and I can only ask what you expected with the election of an unknown inexperienced community organizer with a blank resume.

#154 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-29 01:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

"We don't do this to pull these nations away from Russia,"

Nonsense. The U.S. expanded NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union to encircle Russia. Pure imperial power politics.

#155 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 01:47 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

- how can Corky honestly even consider yourself a liberal?

The same way George McGovern could.

If calling for no military involvement in the Ukraine and air support only against ISIS is too rwing for you, I suggest you go ahead and join Nulli's Libertarian Anarchist Party, lol.

Rather than spending your time watering down the real importance of rwingers being seen as neocons by saying that about the wrong people just because they don't mimic your hysteria.

#156 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

"We should send the troops in Germany to Ukraine.

#63 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2014-08-29 11:26 AM
Just sad. Thank G-d the voices from the Neocon Left are growing smaller and smaller."

I think those voices are going to become louder and louder as Putin's ambitions become more obvious. Neither you nor I can claim to know where he is planning to end his aggression but I doubt seriously that it will stop in Ukraine. Poland's foreign minister agrees.

"Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski reportedly bashed Poland's relationship with the U.S. during a secretly recorded dinner conversation."

www.wusa9.com

#157 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 01:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nulli has nothing to say about the Ukraine, only about me, and Mod8 can't sustain a rational argument in the face of the facts about Putin's long held goals there, he he tails along like a lost puppy.

So it goes... daily.

#158 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Corky, the fact that you are unable to see what is so obvious to the rest of us is very telling. You ARE buying into the Neocon mindset. Just because it is your Obama who is in office has rendered you unable to actually look honestly in the mirror. I say this without rancor or hatred. Just open your eyes and think about what it is you are now advocating in this thread, and then stop and think about what it means to have a neo-con mindset. You have jumped the shark.

#159 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 01:53 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"Andrei Illarionov, formerly Vladimir Putin's top economic advisor (and personal envoy to the G8) , has warned in an interview with Ukrainian television that Putin has already declared war on Kiev."

#149 | POSTED BY CORKY

A little reading, a little knowledge of history and a little common sense COULD go a long way toward accurately explaining the situation.

'The Kremlin released a late-night statement from Putin on its website in which he appealed to the militia of "Novorossyia," or "New Russia."

It's a term he has used before to describe the regions in eastern Ukraine where fighting has raged for months -- a term that describes the area north of the Black Sea that was conquered by Russia in the late 18th century through peace treaties with the Cossack Hetmanate and the Ottoman Empire. In 1922, the area became part of the Soviet Union. The term is mostly used now by Russian nationalists who wish for Russia to reconquer the area."

finance.yahoo.com

#160 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-29 01:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

-what is so obvious to the rest of us

A nod is as good as a wink to a blind Puritopian.

-what it is you are now advocating in this thread

I've advocated no US military involvement in the Ukraine on this thread, and pointed out the facts about Putin's long term goals of aggression.

If that hurts your widdle feewings... I really don't care.

#161 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 01:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nonsense. The U.S. expanded NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union to encircle Russia. Pure imperial power politics.
#155 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Nonsense, countries joined NATO to make sure the Russian dragon didn't do what is currently happening in the Ukraine.

To say otherwise is to not walk a day in their shoes....

Corky, the fact that you are unable to see what is so obvious to the rest of us is very telling. You ARE buying into the Neocon mindset. Just because it is your Obama who is in office has rendered you unable to actually look honestly in the mirror. I say this without rancor or hatred. Just open your eyes and think about what it is you are now advocating in this thread, and then stop and think about what it means to have a neo-con mindset. You have jumped the shark.
#159 | POSTED BY MODER8

It might be needed, this is going to become a problem for us soon enough, but hey just like ISIS, I am sure doing nothing is the answer.

#162 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-29 01:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

pointed out the facts about Putin's long term goals of aggression.
#161 | POSTED BY CORKY

So did Palin & Romney, but you didn't believe her until it was too late.....

Hows that working out?

#163 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-29 01:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

It looks like everyone here wants to rip Eastern Europe to pieces. Get Poland, Romania and Hungary on board. They're going to take the brunt of the refugees. The Chechnyans and Georgians are going to want a piece. The Germans and the Greeks will have to be on board to get our troops to the front line.

There's a lot of work to do. Better get rolling.

#164 | Posted by lee_the_agent at 2014-08-29 02:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

"...and pointed out the facts about Putin's long term goals of aggression."

Should be obvious to the most casual observer. I'm very curious as to what the doubters think Putin's goal really is. I'm sure the Ukrainians and the Eastern Europeans have a good idea what it is.

#165 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-29 02:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

#163

They were only stating the obvious, which is about their limit of capability, and Obama was not blaming the US as the Puritopians and conspiracy theorists do, when the former Soviet countries were at least as anxious to have closer ties with Europe as Europe was with them.

#166 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 02:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Danni from To Be or Not To Be:

I don't want war.
All I want is peace. Peace.

Peace!

A little piece of Poland
A little piece of France
A little piece of Portugal
And Austria perchance

A little slice of Turkey
And all that that entails
Und then a piece of England Scotland
lreland and Wales

A little nip of Norway
A little spot of Greece
A little hunk of Hungary

Oh what a lovely feast
A little bite of Belgium
And now for some dessert
Armenia Albania
And Russia wouldn 't hurt

#167 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 02:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

There's no evidence that McGovern supported Hillary's neocon policies in libya, syria, iraq, etc., so the mention of his name is just a deflection.

#168 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 02:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

So when is the UN going to drive Russian forces out?

Or does the world expect America to do it?

#169 | Posted by Tor at 2014-08-29 02:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I don't want war.
All I want is peace. Peace."

I don't want war but unfortunately Putin does and he wants it in a country where some folks I care about happen to live. That has focused my attention of that country and caused me to realize that Putin is a threat to world peace. What are you going to say if he decides he needs part of Poland, as the Polish Foreign Minister fears? Poland IS a member of NATO and we are obligated by treaty to go to their defense, so what will the isolationists have to say then?

#170 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Or does the world expect America to do it?"

I guess not any more.

#171 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 02:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

he wants it in a country where some folks I care about happen to live.

There it is. I was wondering what caused Danni to betray her beliefs of the last 10 years of blogging here and there it is: a personal connection trumps ideals.

Can't blame you for that. Self-interest is a very strong motivator, but don't hide it behind your holier than thou political elitism and say you want war for the reasons you really want war: to protect your own.

#172 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 02:20 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

Warren seems pretty hawkish as well. We need a new George McGovern to challenge the DNC/Clinton machine.

#173 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 02:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

If Putin starts invading the parts of Ukraine where people don't speak Russian NATO may have to act.

#174 | Posted by Tor at 2014-08-29 02:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

#168

That's evidence you have no argument... liberal Peter Benart in the article does, including quotes from a fine new book about McGovern.

McGovern, like FDR, Harry Truman, and John Kennedy before him, were not isolationist crybabies who are catatonic with fear after the way W mangled our foreign policy... to the point they can't move at all when ISIS does what Pol Pot was doing.

McGovern had the intelligence and the liberal ------ to act when the time warranted it as it does with ISIS.

All we need do with Ukraine is not fold to Putin's aggression and continue non-military means to pressure him, which is what we are doing.

.

#175 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 02:23 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

-Warren seems pretty hawkish as well

No one will ever, ever be pure enough for a Puritopian.

They would find some way to stab Noam Chomsky in the back if he were ever elected, lmao.

#176 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 02:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

"There's no evidence that McGovern supported Hillary's neocon policies in libya, syria, iraq, etc., so the mention of his name is just a deflection."

Deserves repeating.

#177 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 02:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

McGovern had the intelligence and the liberal ------ to act when the time warranted it as it does with ISIS.

All we need do with Ukraine is not fold to Putin's aggression and continue non-military means to pressure him, which is what we are doing.

.

Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 02:23 PM | Reply

McGovern wanted NO PART in Iraq. He called it a trap. FACT

#178 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 02:25 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

Piss-poor intelligence, naivete, and just plain ineffective government. Plenty of blame to go around, but it has all reached its apex with this group of clowns.

"The crisis in Ukraine has a recent precedent: Russia's aggression in Georgia in August 2008.

"Fata (deputy assistant secretary of defense for European and NATO policy 2005-2008) is suspicious of Putin's claim that his intervention in Ukraine is limited in scope and designed to protect Russian citizens. Putin gave similar assurances to the United States over Georgia, Fata recalls. "He lied." Putin's intention all along in Georgia was to bring about the end of the government of President Mikheil Saakashvili, who survived in office but whose standing was weakened by the war. In Crimea, Fata is convinced that Putin's ultimate objective is "to try and take Kiev if he can, and if the consequences aren't too severe for him."

"Putin's actions in Crimea have focused attention there, but the United States and its allies need to watch for a Russian move elsewhere, Fata believes. In 2008, the United States was concerned about potential Russian aggression in the Georgian region of South Ossetia, and was taken by surprise when the Russian military moved instead on Abkhazia. "We were caught off guard as we were looking at the wrong flashpoint." The U.S. must not make the same mistake this time. "I can easily see where Putin could move his forces to finish the job in Georgia, make some hay in Azerbaijan, scramble bombers to intimidate the Baltic States, Poland, the Moldovans, and the Romanians."

www.washingtonpost.com

#179 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-29 02:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

#177

lol, deserves laughing.

You make no argument, only declare that you are right. "'Nuff said".

#180 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 02:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

McGovern's Open Letter to Obama:

"President Obama should call on the Pentagon to reduce the current military budget of $700 billion -- a figure that accounts for almost half of the world's military expenditures -- to $500 billion next year, and then, over the next five years, to $200 billion. "

#181 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 02:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

"There it is. I was wondering what caused Danni to betray her beliefs of the last 10 years of blogging here and there it is: a personal connection trumps ideals."

That's just not so Kanrei, Putin is a threat to Europe, Saddam Hussein was not a real threat to anyone when Bush invaded Iraq. The United States is very connected to Europe, we can't allow it to be intimidated by Russia today any more than we could afford to let it be in previous decades. It is not the US which has caused the problem, it is the completely unnecessary and paranoid delusions of Putin thinking he needs a buffer between Russia and Europe which has so little military might that it is ridiculous to pretend it poses any threat to Russia.

#182 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 02:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

"We should close all U.S. military bases in the Arab world. American troops in the Middle East incite rather than prevent terrorist attacks against us. "

#183 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 02:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

#183

"Do we sit on the sidelines and watch an entire people be slaughtered or do we marshal military forces and move in quietly to put an end to it?"

-George McGovern, in August 1978.

Your generalizations about his antiwar policies have no bearing on the fact that he was the first Senator to advocate strikes against Cambodia in a situation that has many parallels to ISIS.

But then facts are not your strong point.

#184 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 02:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

Putin is a threat to Europe

But that isn't your main motive as you said: Putin does and he wants it in a country where some folks I care about happen to live. That has focused my attention of that country and caused me to realize that Putin is a threat to world peace.

As I said: self-interest is your motive. It is the fact that it is "in a country where some folks (you) care about happen to live in" that is why our attention is focused on that country. As you said, it is that fact that "caused (you) to realize Putin is a threat."

Admit it and stop acting like Boaz.

You have already called for boots on the group in Ukraine. You want an active shooting war.

#185 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 02:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

en.wikipedia.org

The Russian Federation supplies a significant volume of fossil fuels and is the largest exporter of oil and natural gas to the European Union. In 2007, the European Union imported from Russia 185 million tonnes of crude oil, which accounted for 32.6% of total oil import, and 100.7 million tonnes of oil equivalent of natural gas, which accounted 38.7% of total gas import.[1]

#186 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 02:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

In both Georgia and now Ukraine, the instability was incited by US NGO organizations. We seek global domination as surely as Hitler sought it, only we have been more successful.

#187 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-29 02:39 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 1

#187

Sounds like this conspiracy nut theory needs medical attention.

No reason tho think Vlad is trying to restore the old SU, no, uh-uh, none.

It must be the ebil US doing it.

#188 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 02:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

"he fact that he was the first Senator to advocate strikes against Cambodia "

Nobody cares. Different war.

#189 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 02:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

"As you said, it is that fact that "caused (you) to realize Putin is a threat."

It caused me to pay much closer attention, I will admit that. I used to have some vague notion of where Ukraine was and really very little idea of what the people of that nation are like. I discovered they are just like Americans and want the same things as Americans. The people I know are Russian speakers like the people Putin pretended to be concerned for, they will tell you they never feared Kiev, they have told me all along what they knew Putin was going to do and he has done exactly what they told us he would do. As recently as a week ago when it seemed that the government was getting the best of the Seperatists they told me that Putin would not allow that to happen and that he would be invading and going after more and more of their country. They also tell me they believe he won't stop with just Ukraine.

#190 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 02:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

"In both Georgia and now Ukraine, the instability was incited by US NGO organizations."

What baloney. The Russians sent to Ukraine created instability. The Maidan protests were peaceful, the nation continued business as usual. The same Russian who led the violence in Crimea leading up to Russia's illegal annexation was the leader of the seperatists in Donetsk. He was an officer of the Russian Intelligence Service sent there to create chaos and give Putin an excuse to annex both regions. When Poroshenko became President he fought back much harder that Putin thought the Ukrainians would so now Putin will escalate the violence.

#191 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 02:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nobody cares. Different war.

#189 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Lots of parallels, including McGovern's contention that we had caused the problem and needed to be part of the solution.

The facts just don't fit your Hater's meme.

But your Deflections about Hillary, who apparently resides fulltime in your head now, and about ISIS are for another thread, not this one.

If you have something to say about Ukraine, say it.

I've said we should, and won't have any military involvement.

Did you want to argue that, or just lie about it like Moder8?

#192 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 02:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

"They also tell me they believe he won't stop with just Ukraine."

I have dozens of Ukranian friends who don't believe that for a second.

#193 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 02:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've said we shouldn't, and won't have any military involvement.

#194 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 02:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

The extremist right and left's hero Vlad didn't stop at Georgia, nor several other former SU countries, and won't stop at the Ukraine, either.

Anecdotal nonsense notwithstanding.

#195 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 02:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

" and won't stop at the Ukraine, either."

Next stop: Florida. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

The question is: would that be a good thing or a bad thing for the U.S.?

#196 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 03:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

Russia might invade Ukraine if Obama wins,Palin warns "As we've said before, this is an extremely far-fetched scenario" @blakehounshell

just another reminder of how 'you people' treated people who are being proven right almost daily now about this fraud of a potus.

and THEN we get the FRAUD and CLOWN making fun of the FACTS according to candidate romney...

and 'you people' still accept every word from this liar...tsk tsk tsk

www.youtube.com

just a little reminder..
and oh yeah

TOLD YA SO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#197 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2014-08-29 03:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

The question is: would that be a good thing or a bad thing for the U.S.?

Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 03:05 PM | Reply

No more hanging chads.

#198 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 03:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The facts just don't fit your Hater's meme."

" Hater
The most non-insulting "insult" in existence. It's a waste of breath to say it and a waste of energy to type it. This term is often used by pre-teen girls whenever someone insults their favorite teeny bopper singers. If you ever call someone a hater, find the nearest knife and use it pierce your lungs for polluting our air with that fuc***g stupid word.
Smart person: "Justin Bieber has no talent"

Pre-teen girl: "lik3 oMG --- offf u hater ! !!"

Smart person: "Kill yourself"

www.urbandictionary.com

#199 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 03:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Anecdotal nonsense notwithstanding.
#195 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2014-08-29 02:58 PM

Like unrelated McGovern quotes from 1978

#200 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 03:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Russians sent to Ukraine created instability.

Danni,

Do you honestly believe the US and Russia have not used any and all means at their disposal since the collapse of the USSR to create any instability they feel they need to in order to push their own agenda?

#201 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 03:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

-Like unrelated McGovern quotes from 1978

"But as Samantha Power explains in A Problem from Hell, McGovern saw no contradiction in his positions. Vietnam, in his mind, had been a profoundly misguided application of American might to prevent a communist-led independence movement from liberating its country from Western control. Cambodia was genocide.

In his view, the U.S. had a particular responsibility to prevent the latter because its war in Vietnam had helped cause the trauma and instability on which the Khmer Rouge seized."

If you don't see the parallels, you need new glasses.

#202 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 03:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

I find it curious no one is commenting on Putin's past dealings with Syria, Iran and Iraq...and the timing of ISIS seemingly freshened with more capital and equipment...and Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

#203 | Posted by AuntieM77 at 2014-08-29 03:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Do you honestly believe the US and Russia have not used any and all means at their disposal since the collapse of the USSR to create any instability they feel they need to in order to push their own agenda?

#201 | POSTED BY KANREI

"any and all means".... no

#204 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-29 03:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

In his view, the U.S. had a particular responsibility to prevent the latter because its war in Vietnam had helped cause the trauma and instability on which the Khmer Rouge seized."

And that has WHAT to do with the Ukraine exactly? Or have you gotten so confused you are now posting in the wrong thread?

#205 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 03:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

"any and all means".... no

#204 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS AT 2014-08-29 03:17 PM

So you saw what for example Reagan did in South America to combat communism and don't believe he would engage in the same type of acts in Europe?

Do you not recall our support of the Afganies when they fought Russia?

#206 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 03:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

#205 |

Nothing at all. It has to do with ISIS.

See # 192.

I don't blame you. Nulli is better at derailing a thread than most. It's what anarchists do ... mainly because they have nothing else.

#207 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 03:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nulli is better at derailing a thread than most. It's what anarchists do ... mainly because they have nothing else.

#207 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2014-08-29 03:21 PM

You try to be. One of the worst offenders here of hijacking a thread and turning it into a flame fest.

Not every thread Nulli is in becomes one, but every thread you are in does.

Coincidence? I think not.

No, it seems one poster upsets you and you lash out at every and anyone in response and then ironically accuse other of whining.

#208 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 03:23 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

Auntie: It strains belief that Russia would be supporting an extremist Jihadist group such as ISIS. Russia now and for as long as I can remember, has been squarely in support of the Assad regime.

#209 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-29 03:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've said we shouldn't, and won't have any military involvement.

#194 | Posted by Corky

What other treaties should we neglect?

#210 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-29 03:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

#208

Still talking about me rather than the topic.

#211 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 03:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nulli is better at derailing a thread than most. It's what anarchists do ... mainly because they have nothing else.

#207

Still talking about me rather than the topic.

#212 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 03:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Still talking about me rather than the topic.
#211 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2014-08-29 03:25 PM |

Per your design.

Figures you try to alter the course of the thread yet again when confronted with the fact it was you who turned this into a flame thread as of post #9.

And I guess this isn't talking about someone and is disucssing the thread since you are so up on sticking to the thread subject suddenly:

I don't blame you. Nulli is better at derailing a thread than most. It's what anarchists do ... mainly because they have nothing else.

#207 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2014-08-29 03:21 PM

Face it. You are the biggest problem this site has. If Rcade actually followed through with his stated goal of ending the flame fests, you would be gone for 3 weeks.

No more responses. Plonking Corky without actually plonking him. He isn't that important.

#213 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 03:30 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 5

-Per your design.

hahahaa! Yes, I am the Great Puppeteer! Blame all your actions on me!

-as of post #9.

It's post 214, roflmao!! And I didn't even post #9!

- He isn't that important.

Just don't hold yur breath until you turn purple again. That worries me every time you do it.

#214 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 03:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just don't hold yur breath until you turn purple again. That worries me every time you do it.
#214 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2014-08-29 03:34 PM

There it is as predicted.

No, it seems one poster upsets you and you lash out at every and anyone in response and then ironically accuse other of whining.

#208 | POSTED BY KANREI AT 2014-08-29 03:23 PM | REPLY

I guess I am prophetic.

#215 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-29 03:36 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 3

#215

I guess you have no argument with my statement on this Ukraine topic:

"I've said we shouldn't, and won't have any military involvement."

So you just fell in line with Nulli.

#216 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 03:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

"So you just fell in line with Nulli."

You sure are scared of me. lol. I guess the Clintonites are terrified of the left undermining her coronation.

#217 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-29 03:46 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

-You sure are scared of me. lol.

Yeah, I have the same thing with sad/scary/funny clowns.

Some kind of aversion to lunacy, I suppose.

#218 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

I wonder if people are going to keep clinging to nuclear non-proliferation. It seems it's the only thing that keeps superpowers like the US & Russia at bay.

#219 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-29 03:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

and if we're going to keep going on about ISIS... well, the last time there was a fanatical, militant warrior culture with an army that declared war on us, it ended with a Democrat icon putting people who looked like that enemy in concentration camps, followed by 2 nuclear weapon deployments by his successor. We didn't take prisoners often, we machine gunned them while they bobbed around in the water whenever convenient.

When the golden age of Islam was ended and the caliphate toppled, it was done by Mongols. It took a massacre of 800,000 civilians and devastation of regional agriculture to do it, and that was near 750 years ago.

Pretty big can of warms being opened to go "do something" about ISIS.

#220 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-29 04:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Barack Obama has pushed Ukraine to the brink of political, economic and social collapse. Now he wants to blame Russia for the damage he's done. It's absurd. Moscow is in no way responsible for Ukraine's descent into anarchy. That's all Washington's doing, just as Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and now Syria were Washington's doing. If you want to blame someone, blame Obama.

Donetsk and Lugansk have formed militias and taken the war to the enemy. They've engaged Obama's proxy-army on the battlefield and pounded it into mincemeat. That's why Obama deployed his propagandists to lie about the fictitious "Russian invasion". The administration needs a diversion because the Novorussia forces (aka-the "pro Russia separatists") are kicking the holy crap out of Obama's legions. That's why Washington and Kiev are in full panic-mode, because none of this was supposed to happen. Obama figured the army would put down the insurrection, crush the resistance, and move him one step closer to his goal of establishing NATO bases and missile defense systems on Russia's western flank.

Ukraine's troubles began when the US State Department toppled the elected president in February and replaced him with a compliant stooge who agreed to follow Washington's directives. The new "junta" government quickly launched a full-blown war against Russian-speaking Ukrainians in the east which split the civilian population and drove the country to ruin. The plan "pacify" the East was concocted in Washington, not Kiev and certainly not Moscow.

Moscow has repeatedly called for an end to the violence and a resumption of negotiations, but each request has been rebuffed by Obama's puppet in Kiev leading to another round of hostilities. Washington doesn't want peace. Washington wants the same solution it imposed on Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria, that is, a chaotic failed state where ethnic and sectarian animosities are kept at a boiling point so forward-operating bases can be established without resistance, so resources can be extracted at will, and so a formally-independent nation can be reduced to a "permanent state of colonial dependency." (Chomsky) That's the basic gameplan wherever Washington goes. The same rule applies to Ukraine. The only choice the people have is to arm themselves and fight back. Which is what they've done.

The Ukrainian army is getting beaten to a pulp, which means that Obama's glorious "pivot strategy" just slammed into a brick wall.
Russia has not invaded Ukraine. The propagandists in the media are just trying to hide the fact that the Novorussia Army Forces (NAF; aka-the pro Russia separatists) are kicking ass and taking names. That's what's really going on. That's why Obama and his gaggle of miscreant neocons are in a furor. It's because they don't know what to do next, so they've returned to their default position on every issue; lie like hell until they settle on a plan. (Michael Whitney)

#221 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-29 04:54 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

I ponder yet wonder if those advocating for war against Russia realize that Russia has NUKES. I wonder yet ponder if they realize how foolish it would also be economically for us if we engaged Putin in a war. AGCO just laid off people at their manufacturing plant in part because of Russia. Our Country does a lot of business with Russia. You can say goodbye to that if US vs Russia occurs. You can also say goodbye to our space missions too.

#222 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 05:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

221 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-29 04:54 PM

EXCELLENT post. Thanks.
.

#223 | Posted by CalifChris at 2014-08-29 05:17 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

The Neocons are going to find it was a big mistake on their part to underestimate Putin. He's one tough hombre.

#224 | Posted by CalifChris at 2014-08-29 05:20 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

-Barack Obama has pushed Ukraine to the brink of political, economic and social collapse. Now he wants to blame Russia for the damage he's done. It's absurd.

Yes, it is. Putin was well on this path before Obama was even elected.

#225 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-29 05:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ha. The Republicans can't figure out how to hate Obama on this.

Half are crying that he is capitulating with heavy sanctions and he needs to take a strong tact.
The other half are crying that a strong tact could lead to WW3 and we shouldn't get too involved.

Any of you Republicans feel like taking a stand? Maybe you should propose an alternative? No?

#226 | Posted by Sycophant at 2014-08-29 05:25 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Leave the missles in Poland?

#227 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-29 05:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dump Dems in '16?

#228 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-29 05:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Moscow has repeatedly called for an end to the violence and a resumption of negotiations, but each request has been rebuffed by Obama's puppet in Kiev leading to another round of hostilities."

Typically Russia calls for an end to the violence right when their columns of tanks, personnel carriers and trucks are crossing the border of Ukraine.

"Our Country does a lot of business with Russia."

Our country does a very small amount of business with Russia, EU nations though do a great deal of business with Russia. Ukraine has, in the past, done most of their business with Russia. This is why the sanctions have hurt Russia so little, the only nations that could really make meaningful sanctions can't unless they have another source for natural gas and oil.

#229 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 06:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

"EXCELLENT post. Thanks."

His post is pure Russian propaganda.

#230 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 06:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

The photo op with Putin & Obama in the same pic, i titled
"Watch out O, you're getting the evil eye by a killer."

#231 | Posted by kenx at 2014-08-29 06:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

www.youtube.com

MSM is not reporting the actual fighting in East Ukraine because its not favorable to EU/US positions. UA airforce is down to 30% preATO capacity.
Regular UA army being surrounded and driven into fire corridors daily. Rightwing NeoNazi battalions are having to recruit as far away as UK and US to fill their ranks. Mauripol is close to being surrounded. And winter is approaching.

#232 | Posted by aescal at 2014-08-29 08:43 PM | Reply | Flag:


His post is pure Russian propaganda.

#230 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-29 06:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

What part of his post is propaganda? It really is mind boggling how these guys pull their actions off in plain view and people still refuse to acknowledge it.

#233 | Posted by daniel_3 at 2014-08-29 09:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

keep grasping ya liberals morons, with mighty king soetoro at the helm, Vlads laughing at the US and can you blame him

congratulations on your decision and the dog you backed in the fight, now deal with history and all it will uncover

"Vlad attacked whomever and wherever he wanted laughing and knowing the US presidential golfer was a worthless pile of dung and his sheeple still supported his agenda"

#234 | Posted by observer22 at 2014-08-29 09:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

#234

www.dailykos.com

Media, GOP forget Bush's feeble response to Russia-Georgia conflict

#235 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-29 09:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

I come from Ukraine. You not say Ukraine weak

#236 | Posted by drewinnj at 2014-08-29 10:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

Putin still insists they aren't invading Ukraine.

In related news, Bill Clinton never had sexual relations with that woman, Xena and Gabrielle weren't lovers, and neither Michael Jackson nor The Eleventh Doctor ever acted inappropriately towards children.

#237 | Posted by sentinel at 2014-08-29 10:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Get real Corky & Danni,

The Russians and Ukrainians were living together peacefully in their until we stuck our noses in their business. Just like Argentina, Chile, Columbia, Vietnam, Panama, Nigeria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria..................

We destroy millions of lives and steal other peoples resources constantly

#238 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-30 12:44 AM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

He can't respond to #221 because it's true. ..that's why he presses the funny button. I'm certain he knows it's true. But he can't give in. That's his job. Misinformation. Psyops. Propaganda. Pot stirring. Etc.

Operation Earnest Voice

#239 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-30 01:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

Get real, Nutcase,

The world wouldn't be a peaceful place even if the USA had always been isolationist like you want it to be. Your view is just as dumb as the opposite view that the US can do no wrong (which no one here is saying.)

#240 | Posted by sentinel at 2014-08-30 07:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

#239, it's been proven the Russians (and probably every other net savvy country) engages in this, so what's your point? It doesn't change the fact Russia has been invading militarily all along while denying it. I don't know why you think it's wrong for the US to invade other countries and start civil wars but it's ok for Russia to do it.

#241 | Posted by sentinel at 2014-08-30 07:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

#240 I disagree with US policy of covertly staging coups around the world and blaming others as a pretext for invasion and pillaging.

#241 my point? ....they're calling people 'isolationists' on the DR

#242 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-30 09:40 AM | Reply | Flag:

"The Russians and Ukrainians were living together peacefully in their until we stuck our noses in their business."

Reality check Nutcase. They could still be living peacefully next door to each other if Putin hadn't decided that the Maidan protests was the perfect excuse to annrx Crimea. I'd have to say that it is preposterous to pretend that somehow the United States created this crime, but you go right ahead with your conspiracy theory nonsense Nutcase, you should realize though that you becoming more and more laughable. YOu are quickly becoming a joke.

#243 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-30 10:17 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Consider the choice Putin faced. Abandon his nuclear submarines or annex Crimea, peaceably I would add. What would we do if Russia installed a puppet Government in Mexico or Canada? You don't even have to imagine the answer, just look at Cuba. All Venezuela did was go their own way and we attempted to assassinate Chavez. For some reason it was OK when Saudi Arabia and Mexico nationalized their oil, but Venezuela has no such right. The hypocrisy is enormous and obvious.

We are hardly the first bully on this planet, but in this nuclear age the costs are mind boggling. Reality checks against the "official stories", which are bald faced lies, are important because our nation routinely violates its founding principles while pretending to embrace them. It loves to lecture other countries as it violates the very principles that are the subject of these lectures.

What country has invaded more countries than the United States? WHY? and how much have these policies cost the taxpaying citizens of the United States? Lets not pretend any of these invasions are defensive in nature. They seek to impose our economic system on unwilling others. We have no business lecturing others about things we cannot do ourselves.

#244 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-30 11:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Here we go again. Russian artillery fires and a convoy – filled with aid, the Russians say – rolls across Ukraine's border, where an awful but undeclared battle between Moscow's proxies and the Kiev government for control of the country's east has been under way for months. Kiev calls this "a direct invasion". What will Washington and its European allies do?

Recent history suggests there will be many who argue against doing much. Why? Because President Vladimir Putin, Russia's tough-guy leader, has been playing the west like a fiddle, giving just enough to pretend he is something other than the ultranationalist autocrat he has always been.

The writer is editor of Politico Magazine and co-author of ‘Kremlin Rising: Vladimir Putin's Russia and the End of Revolution'"

www.ft.com

#245 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-30 12:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Putin's Pal

Stephen Cohen was once considered a top Russia historian. Now he publishes odd defenses of Vladimir Putin. The Nation just published his most outrageous one yet.

Does Stephen Cohen not know that Russian disinformation and fakery has been extensively documented?"

www.slate.com

#246 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-30 12:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Today's Russia dupes are a smaller, more pathetic lot. Above all they are just plain weirder, because they lack a clear ideological motive for their stoogery.

Soviet Russia not only commanded a vast propaganda network, but embodied a doctrine with international appeal (and which had originated outside of Russia). Vladimir Putin's Russia follows no model except Russian nationalism.

To the extent it employs a non-nationalist philosophy, its main idea is that gays have weakened Europe. And yet the dupes still come."

nymag.com

#247 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-30 12:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

Putin is just following the Israeli strategy of creeping expansion.
Resistance is terrorism.
Russia will take over the territories it wants without interference as long as it does it gradually.

#248 | Posted by bored at 2014-08-30 01:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

Putin has been better for the Russian people than Yeltsin. With Rubin & Summers "advising" the Russian economy was dismembered and like ours was transformed into an Oligarchy with even starker differences between the rich and poor than in the USA. Yeltsin was booted and Putin slowed that collapse dramatically. How these two policy makers maintain their credibility in Government is a testament to how corrupt and disconnected from Government of, by and for the people policy making really is. Excluding Summers and hiring Yellen makes little difference. The international plan is for a few to own everything and everyone else to be worked to death. That's the beauty of Capitalism, there are so few winners. Just a little bit more complicated than Monopoly, which always only has one winner.

#249 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-30 01:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Stephen Cohen was once considered a top Russia historian."

He's been on Thom Hartmann's radio program several times in the last 30 days, by having him on Thom has reduced his own credibility. Cohen is a Russian propagandist, nothing more.

#250 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-30 01:39 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

- The international plan is

Nonexistent.

#251 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-30 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Putin has been better for the Russian people than Yeltsin."

What a crock. Putin has thrown people in jail for expressing their opinion, he has created a police state which is typical of a dictatorship which Russia is today.

#252 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-30 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

" Cohen is a Russian propagandist, nothing more."

I guess he disagrees with American neocons like Hillary and Robert Kagen.

#253 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-30 01:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I guess he disagrees with American neocons like Hillary and Robert Kagen."

He disagrees with the truth. With thousands of Russian troops in Ukraine, with their tanks and other armoved vehicles the propagandists like Cohen fool only those who want to be fooled because they can't bear to admit how wrong they have been about so many things. It's time for a reality check for some of y'all.

#254 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-30 01:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

#254

Don't go dissing Vlad, Danni.

His apologists like Nulli and Nutcase will get all verklempt.

#255 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-30 02:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

"He disagrees with the truth"

It's so reassuring that someone around here knows "the truth".

#256 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-30 02:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

See what I mean?

lmao!

#257 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-30 02:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

" With thousands of Russian troops in Ukraine, "

How many military forces/bases/special operation forces for the U.S. are in how many countries, compared to Shirtless Vlad?

#258 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-30 02:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

How many US tanks are rolling into the Ukraine right now?

This equivalency nonsense is laughable.

"The authoritarian despots are the same.(TM)"

#259 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-30 02:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

"How many military forces/bases/special operation forces for the U.S. are in how many countries, compared to Shirtless Vlad?"

Is there any honest non-partisan that would like to answer that question?

#260 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-30 02:24 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

Thousands? As in more than one?

Someone alert Obama:

a U.S. official said up to 1,000 Russian troops had crossed Ukraine's southern border to fight alongside pro-Russian rebels.

www.cnn.com

Hard to think someone is using "facts" and "truth" when they hide behind hyperbole.

#261 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-30 02:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

what country has the most people in prison in total and per capita?

what country has invaded the most other countries based on lies? (yes, all invasions are based on lies)

everyone knows Putin is no mother Teresa. the question is why do we pretend to be what we're not?

Russians and Chinese are keenly aware of the suppression they live under. Americans are not.

#262 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-30 02:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Russians and Chinese are keenly aware of the suppression they live under. Americans are not."

Funny, I just don't feel all that suppressed. The fact that you can post that we are sort of disproves your idea that we are. America is far from perfect but I wouldn't trade places with a Russian.

#263 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-30 02:46 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Ukraine Leader Accuses Moscow as ‘15,000 Russian Soldiers Join Separatists'

The 15,000 estimate was made by Russian organisation Soldier's Mothers which establishes contact between military personnel on duty and their families.

www.newsweek.com

Putin says he's not invading Ukraine. Here's a video of Putin's tanks invading Ukraine.

www.vox.com

#264 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-30 02:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

It wouldn't surprise me if there's an agreement in Brussels soon over the Ukraine issue. Europe needs it badly in lieu of their deteriorating economies again----the sanctions are starting to bite them in their collective rearends and it's the worse possible time to institute sanctions especially since Russia also is starting to impose sanctions of their own. I don't know what it is about our country destabilizing the world. I hope we have some really good reasons for what we're doing since it will also bite us in the rearend.

#265 | Posted by matsop at 2014-08-30 03:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

The "new world order" envisioned by the ruling elites of the West is slowly coming to an end. There will be a "new world order" but it won't be what Carroll Quigley and others thought as far back as the 1970s. The western bankers must really be dismayed since it'll mean a whole new concept that will be put in place and they won't be able to make their millions just by merely existing. The U.S. now appears to be in reactive mode and desperate to maintain their dollar hegemony. Don't expect a sudden collapse but a slow chronic pain over time. The world will see a significantly different global geo-political and financial system in place in 50 years. The U.S. through it's recent policy decisions is just hastening the development of the power of the East over the West.

#266 | Posted by matsop at 2014-08-30 03:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

" I don't know what it is about our country destabilizing the world."

Wow, we have a secret plan, must be part of Obama's strategy to dominate the world. Riiiight!!!

#267 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-30 03:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

Wow, we have a secret plan, must be part of Obama's strategy to dominate the world. Riiiight!!!

#267 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-30 03:42 PM | Reply

Obama wouldn't know a strategy if it bit him in his sorry rearend. He's just a captive and puppet of the monied power structure in place for years. The domestic economy is a mess and now the globe is in complete chaos. The Wolfowitz plan is alive and well and the Obummer is just the messenger. Libya is now in chaos with militants running wild. Iraq is decompensating and the neocons are probably trying to figure out what to do with ISIS along with compromising Assad at the same time. Then they can tell the Obummer what to say on his teleprompter. Then you have Ukraine where the west rattled Putin's cage and gave him the excuse to make his moves. It appears that he's drawn a line in the sand and has said "no mas" to any more West expansionism in eastern Europe. And then you have the next neocon, the Hill (who has never been right about anything in her life) Clinton waiting in the wings.

#268 | Posted by matsop at 2014-08-30 04:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

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