Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, August 27, 2014

Mother Jones: The killing of Michael Brown by police in Ferguson, Missouri, was no anomaly: As we reported yesterday, Brown is one of at least four unarmed black men who died at the hands of police in the last month alone. There are many more cases from years past. As Jeffrey Mittman, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Missouri chapter put it in a statement of condolence to Brown's family, "Unarmed African-American men are shot and killed by police at an alarming rate. This pattern must stop." But quantifying that pattern is difficult. Federal databases that track police use of force or arrest-related deaths paint only a partial picture. Police department data is scattered and fragmented. No agency appears to track the number of police shootings or killings of unarmed victims in a systematic, comprehensive way. Here's some of what we do know.

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How many unarmed black men are shot by armed black men? I'll betcha the number is bigger than the number they came up with for shootings by police.

#1 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2014-08-27 11:06 AM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

Here's a good question: "How many unarmed black men are 'armed' shortly after they are shot?

#2 | Posted by scalawag at 2014-08-27 11:39 AM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

Yep, this is what we need. The cops are going to have to basically let black people commit crimes because it's racist to stop them.

#3 | Posted by humtake at 2014-08-27 11:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

as needed?

#4 | Posted by tontonmacoute at 2014-08-27 11:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

More unarmed white men are shot by police.

Why is this always about race?

#5 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-27 11:55 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

#1

I wonder if it's as big as the number of times conservatives start thread discussion by changing the subject?

#6 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2014-08-27 11:59 AM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 4

"I'll betcha the number is bigger than the number they came up with for shootings by police"

Umm, police departments are not required to report on this stuff, black, white, yellow ---- skin color doesn't matter.

So your "betcha" is nothing but pure opportunistic partisan speculation and foolishness --- as usual.

www.npr.org

#7 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2014-08-27 12:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

How often do unarmed black men give police a reason to shoot them?

I don't deny that there is a problem in America with police aggression in general, and that every shooting by an officer should be independently investigated. But to simply throw out data that "police have shot 4 unarmed black men in a month" without examining the circumstances is asinine.

#8 | Posted by JOE at 2014-08-27 12:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

In graph #2, columns 2,3 and 6 show a very strong positive correlation. That tells me that data tells cops (in NYC, at least) that black men are more likely to be armed, have used their weapons, and have shot at cops than any other subset of the population. This data is also interesting in that it can be assumed that cops will report when ANYONE, no matter what color, shoots at them. If Asians and whites are not shooting a cops, then cops will tend to act cautiously, or with weapons drawn, when dealing with those population subsets most likely to have guns and be willing to use them on the police...

#9 | Posted by catdog at 2014-08-27 12:25 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Obviously this black man made the cop shoot him.

Sincerely

Joe

#10 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2014-08-27 12:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Exactly How Often Do Police Shoot Unarmed Black Men?

As often as they can.

#13 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-08-27 01:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

How often do unarmed black men give police a reason to shoot them?

It's funny you think there's always a good reason. Not ha-ha funny, but sad funny.

#14 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-27 01:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

Not enough claims Sharpton, Jackson and Crump.

#15 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2014-08-27 01:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well THAT sledgehammer worked. 'Bout time, too.

#7 From the article:
"USA Today reported that on average there were 96 cases of a white police officer killing a black person each year between 2006 and 2012, based on justifiable homicides reported to the FBI by local police."

From the CDC:
Number of blacks murdered in 2011: 7,858.

From the Bureau of Justice Statistics:
93% of black victims were killed by blacks.

Therefore:
7858x.93 = 7,308 blacks killed by blacks in 2011.
7308/96 = 76.125

A black person is 76 times more likely to be killed by another black person than they are to be killed by a white police officer.

#16 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2014-08-27 01:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Anybody hear anything at all about any of these? I really am convinced that our liberal, "progressive" media isn't interested in any of it unless it's white on black crimes. If it was really a case of blacks being killed that concerns them, there's a lot more fodder for them in Chicago, Detroit, New York, L.A., Philadelphia et al. Then, of course, we have the NAACP, Jesse, Al, White House dignitaries the attorney general and even the freakin' president diving in for political reasons on these incidents. It has become very, very disgusting, at least as disgusting as all the shootings if you ask me. I guarantee you Obama or Holder didn't show up for any of THESE incidents.

"Detective Melvin Santiago was a Jersey City police officer who was shot to death just a month ago, on July 13th. Santiago was white. His killer, Lawrence Campbell, was black."

"Jeffrey Westerfield was a Gary, Indiana, police officer who was shot to death last month on July 6th. Westerfield was white. His killer, Carl LeEllis Blount, Jr. was black.

"Officer Perry Renn was an Indianapolis, Indiana, police officer who
was shot to death just last month on July 5th, the day before Officer
Westerfield was killed. Officer Renn was white. His killer, Major Davis, was black."

"Vermillion Parish Deputy Sheriff Allen Bares was gunned down by two men just last June 23rd in Louisiana. Deputy Bares was white. His two killers, Quintlan Richard and Baylon Taylor, were black."

"Detective Charles Dinwiddie of the Killeen Police Department was murdered by Marvin Lewis Guy, a black male. Officer Dinwiddie was white. This happened on May 11th, just over two months ago."

"Then, there is Officer Kevin Jordan of the Griffin, Georgia, Police
Department. He was gunned down just two months ago on May 31st. Officer Jordan was black. His killer, Michael Bowman, was white."

#17 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-27 02:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

A black person is 76 times more likely to be killed by another black person than they are to be killed by a white police officer.

#16 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2014-08-27 01:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

And black people who kill others are a million times more likely to be prosecuted for it than a cop who kills an unarmed person. That's why it doesn't get the attention that state sponsored killings get.

How many times does this asinine deflection need to be shot down before people stop posting it? At least come up with something new....

#18 | Posted by sully at 2014-08-27 02:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

#17 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2014-08-27 02:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

Are any of those killers getting off because someone decided they felt threatened and were justified? Your inability to understand the issue is not evidence that other people are being hypocritical. Its evidence that you are unable to understand issues.

Its not just about the killing. Its about killing without accountability.

#19 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-27 02:08 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

How many unarmed black men are shot by armed black men?

Because shootings by police (who are sworn to protect and serve) is JUST LIKE shootings by gangsters?

#20 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-27 02:14 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Its not just about the killing. Its about killing without accountability.

#19 | POSTED BY SULLY AT 2014-08-27 02:08 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Fail.

Its about a culture that solves it's problems by confrontation. Usually at least one is under the influence. People who haven't learned or been taught how to deal with conflict. Children raising(breeding) children.

#21 | Posted by RobThomas at 2014-08-27 02:17 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Its about a culture that solves it's problems by confrontation.

Which culture is that? the american culture? or do you think only black people are confrontational? must mean you think white people to be meek and timid...

Usually at least one is under the influence.

What influence? Drugs? fear? anger? pride? what influence are you talking about?

People who haven't learned or been taught how to deal with conflict.

Whats with all these fragmented ideas? deal with what conflict? having a police officer detain them for being black? whats the conflict?

Children raising(breeding) children.

So you're pro abortion? me too.

#22 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-08-27 02:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

USA Today reported that on average there were 96 reported cases of a white police officer killing a black person ...

FTFY.

#23 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-08-27 02:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Not nearly enough.

--------Scared white gun humpers, from under their beds.

#24 | Posted by 88120rob at 2014-08-27 02:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Fail.

Its about a culture that solves it's problems by confrontation. Usually at least one is under the influence. People who haven't learned or been taught how to deal with conflict. Children raising(breeding) children.

#21 | Posted by RobThomas at 2014-08-27 02:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

You're way off topic. The reason why people pay more attention to police shootings is that police are actingo on behalf of the state and are rarely held accountable for their actions. Period. End of story. Your inability to understand simple concepts doesn't make everyone else wrong.

You have a ----- for talking about the failure of black culture or whatever but that's another issue. Start a thread about it if you want. Has nothing to do with this topic.

#25 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-27 03:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

Mustang: Like the clowns on Fox News, you only talk about black-on-black crime when you don't want people talking about a black person who might have been wrongfully killed. Any other time it isn't even on your radar.

#26 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-27 03:28 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

There are few statistics dealing with abuse, ethnicity and different problem interactions with police. Until we have statistics it is impossible to evaluate trends and problems. Keep in mind that there are those who would claim statistics on race is racist in itself. Of course that is BS but it has been used.

#27 | Posted by Robson at 2014-08-27 04:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

A better question is: How often do police shoot unarmed non rich people?

#28 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-08-27 04:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

you think there's always a good reason

Show me where in my post I suggested that.

I see the intentional misreading and ad hominem BS is still alive and well on this garbage site.

#29 | Posted by JOE at 2014-08-27 04:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

A black person is 76 times more likely to be killed by another black person than they are to be killed by a white police officer.

#16 | Posted by MUSTANG

Them libs don't believe in math. It's the heart strings they depend on.

#30 | Posted by Sniper at 2014-08-27 05:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

#26 Just like liberals don't give a crap about someone gunning down a black kid until the shooter is white. Get off your high horse.

#31 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2014-08-27 05:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

A black person is 76 times more likely to be killed by another black person than they are to be killed by a white police officer.

#16 | Posted by MUSTANG

Them libs don't believe in math. It's the heart strings they depend on.

#30 | Posted by Sniper

Sniper still believes apples are the same as oranges.

FYI...84 percent of white people killed every year are killed by other whites.

#32 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-27 05:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

#32

Now you are just being factual.

No points around here.

#33 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-27 05:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

"#26 Just like liberals don't give a crap about someone gunning down a black kid until the shooter is white."

When the Ferguson story 1st broke, the identity of the shooter was not known. I remember there being comments that the cop who shot Brown was black. Didn't seem to change anyone's opinion.

#34 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-27 05:37 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Re #35

Yeah let's talk about all that stuff.

ANYTHING but the topic of this thread....but the topic of THIS thread is way too uncomfortable.

#36 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-27 08:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

Fail.
Its about a culture that solves it's problems by confrontation. Usually at least one is under the influence. People who haven't learned or been taught how to deal with conflict. Children raising(breeding) children.

#21 | POSTED BY ROBTHOMAS AT 2014-08-27 02:17 PM | FLAG: | NEWSWORTHY 1

Stop cross posting from the SYG threads.

#37 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2014-08-27 10:19 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

How often do unarmed black men give police a reason to shoot them?

Exactly what does ANY unarmed person need to do to deserve to be shot by a cop?

#38 | Posted by northguy3 at 2014-08-27 11:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Interesting, of the 12 incidents of citizens shooting police, Whites and Asians were not involved.

#39 | Posted by danv at 2014-08-28 12:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

#36 No, not uncomfortable, the topic of this thread is oblivious to what is happening in the streets of our urban centers every day. It is base exploitation of an event to try to further widen the chasm between races in this country.

#40 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2014-08-28 07:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

More unarmed white men are shot by police.
Why is this always about race?

#5 | POSTED BY HEURISTICGRATIS AT 2014-08-27 11:55 AM | FLAG:

Why is this always about stupidity?

Race Distribution
The overwhelming majority (97 percent) of the total U.S. population reported only one race in 2010. This group totaled 299.7 million. Of these, the largest group reported white alone (223.6 million), accounting for 72 percent of all people living in the United States. The black or African-American population totaled 38.9 million and represented 13 percent of the total population.

www.census.gov

#41 | Posted by 726 at 2014-08-28 09:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

#41 Your point is about percentages and not numerical totals. Again, more white people are shot by police. My apologies that you don't like it.

I have no clue why you make this about stupidity by being unable to realize the difference between numerical totals and percentages.

#42 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 10:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

I have no clue why you make this about stupidity by being unable to realize the difference between numerical totals and percentages.

#42 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 10:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

The percentages makes looking at numerical totals by themselves irrelevant.

#43 | Posted by sully at 2014-08-28 10:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

#43 No, they don't. Not when you consider the percentages of black men involved in crime.

So is the issue about the % of people killed by police or the number of people killed by police?

What percentage of police shootings involve white people? black people? What percentage is higher.

Both the numbers and the percentages show white people being shot by police more than black people.

#44 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 10:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

The real question that should be addressed is why so many Blacks are killing each other. Detroit and other inner city shooting deaths in Black on Black crime are off the charts. Their community leaders need to step up to the plate and call a halt to the carnage.

#45 | Posted by CalifChris at 2014-08-28 10:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

#45 No, the real question that needs to be addresses is why are so many PEOPLE of any race, creed, religion, etc. killing each other.

What is the driving force behind the killing. Until you get that nailed down you won't realistically decrease the killing in any specific artificially individualized people group.

#46 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 11:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

"#43 No, they don't."

You're wrong.

"So is the issue about the % of people killed by police or the number of people killed by police?"

Neither. Its about which is more likely to be shot by police. And given that blacks and whites make up different % of the population, you can't just count # of shootings.

You're basically just telling us that you can't follow fairly simple logic and have little understanding of statistics.

#47 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-28 11:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

And given that blacks and whites make up different % of the population, you can't just count # of shootings.

This.

#48 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-08-28 11:12 AM | Reply | Flag:

Let's say group A is 1% of the population and they include 10% of the people who were shot by police. And group B makes up 90% of the population and they include 70% of the people who are shot by police.

As an individual, a member of Group A is much more likely to be shot by police than a member of Group B.

That's not to say there can't be reasons for that. But just saying Group B makes up 70% of police shootings is entirely irrelevant if you're trying to figure out which individuals are most likely to be shot.

#49 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-28 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

#47 How often do police shoot unarmed black men? What percentage of police shootings are unarmed black men? What percentage of police shootings are unarmed whit men?

Easy answer. The thread title is "How often do police shoot unarmed black men" not 'what is the probability of an unarmed black man getting shot in comparison to their % of general population.

I understand simple statistics well enough, you seem to have trouble understanding the title of the thread.

#49 In comparison to their % of general population sure. In light of total number of police shootings of unarmed men and the % for each race, no.

See, if 1,000 unarmed men are shot by police with 666 of them being white and 334 of them being black, white men are more likely to be shot by police in terms of race profile and being shot by police.

Sure when you factor in the population representation the probability goes up for blacks, of course that has to do with crime % as well which balances the numbers the other way.

The thread is asking how often to police shoot unarmed black men. On the face of the question, not as often as they shoot unarmed white men.

The point, why focus on race over and above other details.

#50 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 12:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Easy answer. The thread title is "How often do police shoot unarmed black men" not 'what is the probability of an unarmed black man getting shot in comparison to their % of general population.

I understand simple statistics well enough, you seem to have trouble understanding the title of the thread."

If you want to be a stickler about the question in the headline then why do you keep talking about white men being shot?

You seem to want to expand the discussion to include a comparison of how many whites and blacks are shot. Then when its pointed out that you're doing the comparison in a way that makes the numbers irrelevant, you say I'm off topic.

I don't know where you've had success with this kind of hypocrisy in the past but you're not fooling me.

#51 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-28 01:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

#51 See my original comment. It is about the folly of race being made the issue. If you can't see that it is a personal problem you need to address.

#52 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 01:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you can't see that, ...

#53 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 01:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

#51 See my original comment. It is about the folly of race being made the issue. If you can't see that it is a personal problem you need to address.

#52 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 01:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you had just said that you're more concerned with anyone being shot regardless of color, I'd believe you. You went in the opposite direction by making race more of an issue.

#54 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-28 01:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

The possibility of human creativity creates the kind of intimacy, the kind of involvement with other people that we both fear and crave;… kindness, fundamentally, makes life worth living… everything that is against kindness is against hope.

Kindness, or "mutual belonging" has become our great taboo. Ask any Libertarian. It hangs on by the skin of its teeth in the imperative to carry out "random acts of kindness." Instead let's try purposive acts of kindness, challenge competitive individualism and begin imagining the end of capitalism. (Murray Dobbin)

#55 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-28 03:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

#54 No, I didn't. You perceive it that way, but it doesn't make it so.

Why focus on the race at all, isn't anyone being shot by police a big deal? That is the point in the first post I posted to this thread.

Your missing of that point is what lead to responses to your misunderstanding.

#56 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 03:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why focus on the race at all, isn't anyone being shot by police a big deal?

If it appears one racial group gets shot far more often than any other, and disproportionately, then one MUST focus on the race of that group to see why.

#57 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-28 03:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

#57 So the only factor that sets a group apart from another is race? I doubt you think that.

Poverty?
Location?
Criminal past?
Criminal History of the area?
Police History in the area?

Race rarely has to be a focus.

#58 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 03:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

#58

I would put the word "violent" in front of the word "crime" throughout that post because this is why a police officer is more likely to be rushing into that neighborhood with his hand on his gun already.

#59 | Posted by eberly at 2014-08-28 03:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

Whats with all the attempts to deflect off topic?

A POLICE OFFICER shot (6 times) and killed an unarmed, innocent, black kid.

Seems like racist America is doing anything in its power to deflect and excuse that inept cop.

#60 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-08-28 03:38 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#60 We don't know whether he was innocent or not at this point.

Why jump to conclusions on either side.

You might also notice that this topic is addressing something broader than just the Michael Brown incident (that is, if you read).

#61 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 03:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

#59 Sure

#62 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 03:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

#59 Add gun/weapon crimes if you wish.

#63 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 03:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

The roots of police militarization transcend 9/11, going all the way back to the aftermath of insurrections by the black populations of major American cities in the 1960s and the American political elite's desire to ensure that nothing like that ever happened again.

US presidents Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon began creating an institutional framework to ensure that any such disorder in the future would be dealt with differently. This process culminated in DOD Civil Disturbance Plan 55-2, aka "Garden Plot," which involved domestic surveillance by the military, contingency plans for military cooperation with local police in suppressing local disorders, plans for mass preventive detention and joint exercises of police and the regular military. It was against this background that then-governor Reagan introduced the first SWAT teams in California.

When Reagan became president, he appointed Louis O. Giuffrida, who as head of the California Guard had enthusiastically participated in Garden Plot exercises under Reagan's govenorship, to head the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In that role Giuffrida worked with Oliver North to draw up plans for martial law in the event of a "national emergency." They worked together on the Readiness Exercises 1983 and 1984, which included mass detention of suspected "terrorist subversives" under the emergency provisions of Garden Plot.

The militarization of local police, and the encouragement of a police culture that viewed local communities (especially people of color in minority neighborhoods) as an occupied enemy populations, got further impetus from the War on Drugs, which was greatly intensified under the Reagan administration. Ultimately, what it boils down to is the government views its own people, particularly those of color, as the enemy. The question is how long we will tolerate it. (Kevin Carson)

#64 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-28 03:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

#63

exactly. which explains why guns are more likely to be drawn and pointed in the first place. Naturally, more people will get shot in those circumstances.

#65 | Posted by eberly at 2014-08-28 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Cops respond to a threat level. If you want to see them loaded for bear, watch them do a drug bust, guys that peddle meth and crack are always armed. Areas where there is a lot of violent crime, ditto. Ferguson was and is no paradise, even with the latest cop on black shooting, it is still a place you would not want to have to change a tire.
What I fear will happen is the same thing that happened in the south side of Cincinnati. Black kid gets shot, neighborhood erupts, the police stop coming into the area. A whole lot more black kids die. I don't see a win in this situation.

#66 | Posted by docnjo at 2014-08-28 05:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

How often is black on white the headline? No matter what the evidence or what the verdict the headline has done the damage already. Much like a false accusal of rape or molestation it serves only to polarize the low info knee-jerk emotionally reactive crowd and the truth will never matter at that point.

#67 | Posted by monkeylogic42 at 2014-08-28 06:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm so sick of the poor black guy ( a total scumbag criminal ) that got shot. Too bad. One less POS

Meanwhile in SLC a black cop shoots a white POS and no one even mentions it.

#68 | Posted by sames1 at 2014-08-28 07:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

You know Sames, according to Fox News, only Racists talk about Race.

#69 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-28 07:45 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

You know... Or in context of the discussion already at hand... donny

#70 | Posted by monkeylogic42 at 2014-08-28 10:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

No one should die for petty theft. Crashing the global economy maybe. Many of you idiots are up in arms that some have prejudged the cop, while you prejudge the young dead man. This should offend anyone with a conscience and two cents worth of brains. Race is an issue here, but the central issue is police violence. This effects everybody, even you and your children, you idiots. Handcuffing 2nd graders, armored personnel carriers, SWAT teams organized to attack homeowners based only on the word of a paid informant seeking a reduced sentence. Be afraid people, scared enough to do something about it.

#71 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-29 08:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

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