Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, August 26, 2014

The FBI has questioned a man who says he recorded audio of gunfire at the time Michael Brown was shot by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson on August 9. The allegations of the new audio include claims of a pause between two bursts of gunfire. One which seems to be composed of 6 shots with the second composed of 4 shots. The audio was recorded by a local resident who was on a video chat service at the time of the incident and happened to be recording the conversation at the same time Brown was shot.

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HeuristicGratis

 

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Admin's note: Participants in this discussion must follow the site's moderation policy. Profanity will be filtered. Abusive conduct is not allowed.

If the Ferguson cops had released an exact accounting of what Darren Wilson claims happened during the shooting incident, we'd know whether this new audio evidence supports or contradicts Wilson's account.

I find it amazing that they've been allowed to release so little, even as they had no trouble releasing the store video that allegedly shows Brown shoplifting. The department's ongoing cover up ought to be a criminally prosecutable civil rights violation in itself.

#1 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

Hard drives must have crashed.

#2 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-26 11:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

Ten shots? That quickly?

It is difficult to believe a police officer can't be collected enough to shoot once and only once at an unarmed man in order to bring him down. A big guy like Brown can't run too fast. You take a second, aim and hit him in the leg. These officers have taken target practice. The officer in question belongs in a Rambo film, not in the streets of an urban area.

#3 | Posted by scalawag at 2014-08-26 11:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

With Eric Holder being raked over the coals for his departments investigation into the NOLA pd I doubt anyone can get a fair trial.

#4 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 11:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

"You take a second, aim and hit him in the leg." "The officer in question belongs in a Rambo film"

I think you've been watching too many hollywood movies if you think that's how it would work.

#5 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2014-08-26 11:32 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

If you have time to fire a warning shot or shoot to wound then your life isn't in danger. I'm waiting for the investigation at this point. The original witnesses have lied claiming Brown was executed after surrending shot in the back of the head. Claims that he was shot in the back etc... All the while never mentioning the strong arm robbery and the scuffle at the car. If the cop is found guilty then fry him. If he's not found guilty he has to be let go.

#6 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 11:37 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

Dead men tell no tales.

Cops know that if you're gonna shoot you might as well kill.

Why do you think so many cops shoot people 9 times these days?
One or two bullets doesn't stop someone?

#7 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2014-08-26 11:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

cops should carry nothing more than mace, a tazer, and a shotgun with rock salt.

#8 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-26 12:06 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

It is difficult to believe a police officer can't be collected enough to shoot once and only once at an unarmed man in order to bring him down. A big guy like Brown can't run too fast. You take a second, aim and hit him in the leg. These officers have taken target practice. The officer in question belongs in a Rambo film, not in the streets of an urban area.

#3 | POSTED BY SCALAWAG AT 2014-08-26 11:27 AM | FLAG:

Not sure where you live, but that's not what people in this country are trained to do when employing lethal force. If they're not stopped after the first salvo, you adjust and keep shooting until they are or you're out of ammo. That's the nature of lethal self-defense. I would suggest to you what I suggested to others, go take a CHL class. You don't have to use the permit but at least you'll understand what is taught.

Fat people can be incredibly quick over a short distance. Unless you played sports with Brown you have no idea how quick he was or wasn't. It's past the first 10 yards they slow up drastically.

#9 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-26 12:11 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

The original witnesses have lied claiming Brown was executed after surrending shot in the back of the head.

I've never seen any witness claim he was shot in the back of the head. Dorian Johnson said Wilson shot Brown in the back when he was running away, and police have confirmed that Wilson did shoot at him as he fled. The bullet did not hit. (Johnson not knowing it didn't hit seems like an understandable mistake to me, given that he was fleeing himself.)

Johnson said Brown then turned around and surrendered, and was shot anyway.

All the while never mentioning the strong arm robbery and the scuffle at the car.

Johnson and others described the scuffle at the car. Johnson said that Wilson stopped his car close to Brown and Johnson, opened his door and accidentally hit them with it, and it bounced back closed on the cop and made him upset.

#10 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 12:12 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

If they're not stopped after the first salvo, you adjust and keep shooting until they are or you're out of ammo.

As fast as some U.S. cops fire their guns, they don't wait to see whether the person is "stopped" or not. The cops in North St. Louis were shooting the guy with the knife even after he fell to the ground, no threat to them or anybody else.

#11 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 12:13 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

When the adrenaline starts flowing...

In any case, is there anyone who is not skeptical about this alleged new recording?

#12 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-26 12:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

Has there been an actual police report on the Brown killing yet?

We got an 18 page report on the shop lift report, but still nothing official on the Police shooting that I am aware of.

Wonder why that might be?

#13 | Posted by oldwhiskeysour at 2014-08-26 12:20 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Clearly it wasn't "shoplifting". It was a strong arm robbery no matter how many times you lie. If someone shoved your mother, wife, or daughter like that you would want assault charges.

#14 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 12:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Clearly it wasn't "shoplifting".

That has nothing to do with the lack of a police report on the killing, does it, Dalton?

No matter how much you try to vilify the dead guy, there should be a full police report giving as much attention to detail as in the "Great Cigar Robbery" report

.

#15 | Posted by oldwhiskeysour at 2014-08-26 12:39 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 5

You can't read OWS. I said up thread that I'm waiting for the investigation to play out. Too many conflicting statements at this point. I'm just pointing out that it wasn't shoplifting as your knowingly lied and claimed. It may be that Brown knew he committed a strong arm robbery and got physical with the officer knowing he just committed this crime. It could be that the officer figured out that Brown had cigars in his hand and realized he was dealing with a guy that may have committed a strong arm robbery. It could be that the cop is a racist and woke up that morning thinking he wanted to shoot and kill a black male that day. Who knows but, we do know it wasn't shoplifting.

#16 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 01:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

It really says more about the liars that claim "shoplifting" or "gentle giant" or when his family claimed he had been out "spreading Jesus' word earlier that day" than any of this says about the young man.

#17 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 01:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

As fast as some U.S. cops fire their guns, they don't wait to see whether the person is "stopped" or not. The cops in North St. Louis were shooting the guy with the knife even after he fell to the ground, no threat to them or anybody else.

#11 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2014-08-26 12:13 PM | FLAG:

That's called "contagious fire". It's a very dangerous phenomenon, but not the case in Furgeson where there was only 1 person doing the shooting.

#18 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-26 01:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

It could be that the officer figured out that Brown had cigars in his hand and realized he was dealing with a guy that may have committed a strong arm robbery.

The Ferguson police chief admitted that Wilson's stop of Brown had nothing to do with the shoplifting incident. So there's no "could be" about it. We know the stop was about jaywalking.

And, yes, I'm calling it shoplifting, because your obsessive insistence that it be described like it was the Lufthansa Heist is getting on my nerves.

#19 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:08 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

If someone did that to your wife you wouldn't want them charged w/ assault if it happened at Target? So it's more about me describing the robbery correctly than the facts? I see. What if it was your daughter that got shoved around like that?

#20 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 01:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

- the stop was about jaywalking.

S'riously?

I haven't followed this story much so I did't know that.

Actually, I'm glad I didn't know that... the whole thing seems even more bizarre now.

#21 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-26 01:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Chief said the initial stop didn't have anything to do with the robbery. Not the whole situation. There was a scuffle at the car and witnesses have confirmed this. I'm not saying the young man deserved to die over either but, these are the facts.

#22 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 01:18 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

If someone did that to your wife you wouldn't want them charged w/ assault if it happened at Target?

I'm interested in what Michael Brown and Darren Wilson were doing during the shooting. This other stuff is just a distraction the Ferguson police introduced to reduce pressure on themselves to justify Brown's killing and leaving his body on the road for four hours.

#23 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:19 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

#1 and #13

What don't you understand about an investigation that precludes you from understanding that kind of information is not going to be released until the investigation is completed?

That information coming out would sully the data gathering from alleged witness testimony and potentially cause the case to be in jeopardy (which would not bring a favorable result for the police dept. PR image.

You don't release detailed information about what took place, especially something that will sway or influence witness testimony, while an investigation and evidence collection is ongoing.

#19

The original reason for the stop was a jaywalking concern. The secondary reason, and potential cause cause for escalation, was alleged to be related to the robbery.

See here:

Chief: Officer noticed Brown carrying suspected stolen cigars
www.usatoday.com

"In an afternoon press conference, Ferguson, Mo. Police Chief Thomas Jackson said Wilson did not initially make a connection between the robbery and Brown,whose death spurred violent protests and unrest in the St. Louis suburb over the past week.

Wilson stopped Brown and a friend because "they were in the middle of the street, blocking traffic," Jackson said.

Hours later, however, Jackson told a slightly different story to CNN and NBC, saying that Wilson noticed Brown was carrying a box of cigars that had been reported stolen. Wilson, he said, initially stopped Brown for blocking traffic, but as he began driving past Brown, he noticed Brown was holding cigars."


Please get the details surround the case correct when discussing it.

#24 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:21 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

There was a scuffle at the car and witnesses have confirmed this.

Dorian Johnson said the scuffle was a "what did you just say to me?" situation, where Wilson was driving off and heard something he didn't like. It doesn't sound to me like there's any possibility Wilson was thinking about stolen cigars at any point during or immediately before the shooting.

If Ferguson police had given a full accounting of what Wilson told them happened, we'd have far fewer questions. The fact they haven't suggest to me a cover up.

#25 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:21 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

Johnson said Brown then turned around and surrendered, and was shot anyway.
All the while never mentioning the strong arm robbery and the scuffle at the car.
Johnson and others described the scuffle at the car. Johnson said that Wilson stopped his car close to Brown and Johnson, opened his door and accidentally hit them with it, and it bounced back closed on the cop and made him upset.

#10 | POSTED BY RCADE

Yeah. Johnson also said the officer stood over Brown's fallen body and kept shooting.

youtu.be

#26 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 01:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

#25 "suggest to me a cover up"

Or a thought out investigation which they do not want spoiled by releasing information that will potentially influence other witness testimony which they need to get an accurate view of what had taken place.

#27 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:25 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

What don't you understand about an investigation that precludes you from understanding that kind of information is not going to be released until the investigation is completed?

After police-involved shootings, police departments routinely release information about what their officer (or officers) said happened.

I was a reporter for years and spoke to police after these incidents. Your belief that police keep this information secret couldn't be more wrong.

The public has a right to know after cops shoot somebody why they did it. Every police department I ever contacted after a police incident told me their version of events.

Please get the details surround the case correct when discussing it.

I know the Ferguson police chief changed his story hours later. Why should I believe that change after he initially explained that Wilson stopped Brown and Johnson for jaywalking?

#28 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:25 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

Johnson also said the officer stood over Brown's fallen body and kept shooting.

The pause in the audio suggest there might be some truth to that.

Keep in mind that Johnson was fleeing the street as this went down, in fear he might be shot. So he's not going to have perfect understanding of everything that happened after the first shot was fired.

#29 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:27 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

St. Louis County NAACP President Esther Haywood told News 4 that Brown was shot once by the officer and then an additional nine times as he lie in the street. [emph added]

www.youtube.com

Oopsie.

#30 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 01:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

#28 Good investigators keep these details covered, especially when the details could result in poisoning the well of witness testimony that is still being looking into or attempted to be collected.

You claim he changed his story, yet there is equal possibility that he simply failed to make mention of that item in the original discussion.

Why assume the police chief lied?

Why not put on your reporter hat and call the police chief and make your interview available on the DR?

#31 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:29 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 2

#29 I though Johnson claimed to have laid underneath a car during the incident?

#32 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Or a thought out investigation which they do not want spoiled by releasing information that will potentially influence other witness testimony which they need to get an accurate view of what had taken place.

The St. Louis cops released a thorough accounting of what their cops said they did when the knife wielder was shot dead outside the store. They also released an eyewitness video within 24 hours they had obtained that showed the shooting.

They didn't keep this information secret to avoid influencing witnesses. They put the information out, which is what police all over the U.S. do.

You're inventing a theory about how police operate that is completely bogus. Police release the basic facts of an incident to the press quickly. A thorough accounting of Wilson's explanation for why he shot Brown should've been released that day.

#33 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:32 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 7

I though Johnson claimed to have laid underneath a car during the incident?

As I understand it, he took cover behind a car and then fled.

#34 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

#29 The pause in the audio also suggests there might be the possibility that the officer took a second or two break to sip his coffee.

May and might stay up all night thinking they hear a fight, in the morning it's quote boring as it was just a moth bouncing off a light.

#35 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:35 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

Keep in mind that Johnson was fleeing the street as this went down, in fear he might be shot. So he's not going to have perfect understanding of everything that happened after the first shot was fired.

#29 | POSTED BY RCADE

"Fleeing the street" is a pretty good description. He hid behind the first available car and left the scene from there. The innaccuracies in his testimony suggest he didn't actually see very much.

He claims he was an inch away from Brown during The Tussle when Wilson shot Brown in the chest from close range. Most Tussle witnesses don't mention seeing Johnson. The closest any witness puts Johnson is at the passenger side of the front bumper, standing five feet or more from the car.

He claims Brown was shot in the back as he ran. Blam. Well...

He claims Brown fell in the fetal position, with pain in his eyes. He claims he did not flee the scene until he watched Brown's body stop moving. The Brown family's medical examiner says he Brown was stopped in his tracks and felt no pain.

#36 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 01:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

#33 No, an account of Wilson's reasoning should not have been released if an accurate investigation was being sought. Especially when there was no video of the event taking place.

Again, get an interview with the police chief and ask him all your questions. After you do that you can report back as to why they didn't release the information and put all the DR conspiracy theories to rest.

#37 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:37 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

The pause in the audio also suggests there might be the possibility that the officer took a second or two break to sip his coffee.

If you're going to be stupid, there's no point in discussing any of this with you.

#38 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:37 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

He claims Brown was shot in the back as he ran. Blam. Well...

The police have confirmed that Wilson fired at Brown's back as he was running away (which itself is a questionable and possibly criminal act).

He claims he did not flee the scene until he watched Brown's body stop moving. The Brown family's medical examiner says he Brown was stopped in his tracks and felt no pain.

That doesn't mean his body didn't move after the fatal shot.

#39 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

#23 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not arguing about how the confrontation went down. Just pointing out that OWs and others have tried to portray it in the best possible light and that if someone shoved one of your kids or wife around that way they wouldn't lie and call it shoplifting. It's more to the point of people lying which has stoked the flames in this case. I've said if the cop is guilty of murder they should fry him. It raises suspicions when people knowingly lie about the facts. I've also said that the officer likely has no physically visible injuries b/c if he did the police would have already released the photos.

#40 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

#30

Man these witnesses keep coming out of the woodwork. Its YOUR problem that you give them the time of day. So you're trying to prove there are people out there that want the cop hung from a tree. So what? What does naacp president have anything to do with this outside of more race baiting?

#41 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 01:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

#38 I am reacting to your "might" statement. The pause suggests nothing at the current time as there are only allegations of the audio's authenticity and no tangible explanatory material from the simple sound of gunshots in the background.

Stop pretending comments in jest are not common place on this wretched blog.

#42 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:41 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

It would be the height of dishonesty for either side to use the alledged pause in the audio as evidence of ANYTHING. Both sides are scrambling to bend the facts to fit their own narrative. Saying the pause somehow lends credence to what Johnson claims is stupid at this point.

#43 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-26 01:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

To me all of this "gentle giant" and as notch pointed out discrepancies in Johnson's statements actually makes it harder for the cop to be prosecuted.

#44 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 01:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

#39 It depends if there was a felony level assault on the officer.

#45 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

Here's an eyewitness account you may be familiar with by now. He features a pause between bursts:

Dude was on his knees like this[hands up, looking up]. He's like, "Bro, don't shoot me."

Dude shot him dead in the head, Bro. he then walked up to his body and shot him four more times. Looked at his eyes. Paused for a minute. Then boom, shot him four more times.

Yeah, Bro. Bro, yeah.

youtu.be

#46 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 01:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

[...] Good point Moder8

Down with the conspiracy theories. Stick with the information you know until you get more information.

#47 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

#46

What's your point? Are you actively attempting to conflate all the witnesses testimony in an effort to discredit ALL of it? I seriously do not understand your intent in providing statements by people who A) weren't there or B) most likely making stuff up. What does that add to the conversation?

#49 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 01:46 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#46 is a video posted on August 10th. It is one of several posted accounts that discuss the allegation that Brown had stolen cigars from the Ferguson Market or Quick Trip.

How come those robbery allegations didn't get media coverage up front? Everybody in Ferguson seems to have known about the allegations.

#50 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 01:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

#48 Drudge.com is a site. Each individual user submitted story is called a "blog entry".

This is the blog of heuristigratis. It is wretched.

My apologies for your confusion.

#51 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

KMOV interviewer on August 9th: What did the police -- did the boy do anything wrong?

"Eyewitness": They say he stole something from Quick Trip. I don't care!

youtu.be

#52 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 01:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

And, yes, I'm calling it shoplifting, because your obsessive insistence that it be described like it was the Lufthansa Heist is getting on my nerves.
#19 | POSTED BY RCADE

This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've read lately. It's not shoplifting once you put your hands on someone. Shoplifting can turn to robbery in a blink of an eye. Properly calling something what it is, isn't overplaying something or giving it more wait than it deserves, It's calling it what it is. On the other hand calling it what it's not, such as "shoplifting" when the crime being discussed is strong armed robbery is down playing the actions of the alleged perpetrator.

#53 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2014-08-26 01:49 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

What's your point? Are you actively attempting to conflate all the witnesses testimony in an effort to discredit ALL of it?

I've been wondering the same thing. It seems obvious to me that after an incident like this, when the dead man's body is left on the street for hours, the potential for people to falsely claim they saw the shooting is high.

I want to know what witnesses told police and/or the FBI. What people are saying on YouTube isn't worth much.

#54 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:49 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"Eyewitness":

"He threw his hands up in the air, and they shot him. The boy fell. And they shot him some more."

youtu.be

#55 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 01:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

#54 The police also want to know this information. They are still working on tracking down all the witnesses in this matter and verifying the details of their story.

In light of that, they do not want to release too much detail into the public as the witness information is not nearly accounted for yet.

#56 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:52 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

On the other hand calling it what it's not, such as "shoplifting" when the crime being discussed is strong armed robbery is down playing the actions of the alleged perpetrator.

I explained why I called it shoplifting, Johnny Cochran.

There is zero established relevance between Brown's shooting and the prior incident. Until there is, it doesn't matter what it is called.

#57 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:52 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

What people are saying on YouTube isn't worth much.

#54 | POSTED BY RCADE

Many of these links are from the conventional media, re-posted to YouTube.

There is definitely value in what people had to say. Some good, some bad.

#58 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 01:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

#57 Some of the information the police released was that Brown was suspected in the robbery by Wilson and that was a secondary reason for the stop after the initial interest for jaywalking.

You refuse to give credence to that information while claiming to be willing to accept other information the police release.

How does that work?

#59 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 01:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

Unfortunately, the conventional media outlets either omitted the robbery allegations or dropped that piece.

I don't get KMOV at my home. Piaget Crenshaw's comments about the robbery allegations were omitted. If it weren't for YouTube we wouldn't know.

#60 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 01:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Here's raw video from Canada's CBC News of Dorian Johnson giving his account of what happened:

www.cbc.ca

The date the video was posted is Aug. 10, but I think the video might be from a day earlier after the shooting.

#61 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 01:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Many of these links are from the conventional media, re-posted to YouTube."

Some people will reject links from Huff and Puff, even though they are just a news aggregator that posts articles from the mainstream media.

#62 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-26 01:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dorian Johnson's admission in his initial CNN interview that he fled the scene has been chopped off of most of the YouTube re-postings. I've noticed lately that the video is now cut before the part where Johnson says the officer stood over the body and shot.

So, yeah, YouTube postings can give an incomplete picture just like conventional media can.

#63 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 01:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

Here is what I want to know:

Was there GSR on Brown or his clothes?

What were the angles of entry of the bullets that hit Brown's body?

How many shots were fired in total?

How many bullets individually struck Brown?

Does Officer Wilson have any record of using excessive force?

What is the toxicologists report as to any/all illegal drugs or alcohol found in Brown's body.

I have no doubt that each of those question have already been forensically answered. I want to know the answers. Because as it stands now, both sides are full of it when they are pointing the finger at the other side.

#64 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-26 01:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

You refuse to give credence to that information while claiming to be willing to accept other information the police release.

I never said anything about accepting what the police claim happened. I said we should be told what Wilson told them, so it can face the same scrutiny as the accounts of Dorian Johnson and all other witnesses.

By keeping Wilson's explanation secret, Wilson's story can be changed later to account for new evidence as it comes in.

For instance, we should have known before this audio came out whether Wilson said there was a pause between shots he fired.

#65 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:01 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

Having already produced a nearly blank incident report about the alleged robbery at the convenience store, the fact that the police have not publicly released Officer Wilson's report is troubling if not outright contemptuous considering another person died due to his actions.

There is no trust between the community and the police department and I believe everyone will concede this as truth. The lack of transparency and even a chronology of when and how Wilson's statements were recorded only fuels the notion that the police might cover-up any initial reports and potentially backdate later reports built to fit the narratives of witnesses and evidence not known immediately after the shooting. Wilson's words of what he recounted of the shooting and how long and for what reason his shooting paused is indeed central to any finding of factuality far beyond the speculations of outsiders.

The lack of any "official record" of the events from the officer's perspective leaves any judgment of his actions as pure speculation compared to the inflammatory video which convicted Brown by proxy without any trial or evidence to the contrary outside of the court of public opinion. The police have made sure that Wilson's actions and recitation of them have remained out of the public eye and his presumption of innocence has been a given since the shooting transpired. The same courtesy was never given to the late Michael Brown.

#66 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 02:02 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I have no doubt that each of those question have already been forensically answered. I want to know the answers.

Some of your questions were answered by the private autopsy conducted at the behest of lawyers of the Brown family.

#67 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

#57 | POSTED BY RCADE

"I explained why I called it shoplifting, Johnny Cochran."

Yes. You think strong armed robbery is to harsh a term for what you saw on the video. Although it is the accurate description

"There is zero established relevance between Brown's shooting and the prior incident. Until there is, it doesn't matter what it is called."

If it's so irrelevant then why do you feel the need to downplay it by calling it something other than what it is?

#68 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2014-08-26 02:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

The police have made sure that Wilson's actions and recitation of them have remained out of the public eye and his presumption of innocence has been a given since the shooting transpired. The same courtesy was never given to the late Michael Brown.

Yep. I'd like to see the feds pursue a civil rights prosecution of the Ferguson police department for the way they've acted after the shooting.

#69 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:04 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

Police get to keep information to themselves during investigations all the time. I posted a link to a local case in California where police killed an 18 year old woman; it took 6 weeks for the DA to clear the cop and release their report.

I don't know the required protocol for releasing information, but I would think that with the Feds involved at this point that the protocol is being followed. We'll find out if that's true.

#70 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 02:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

If it's so irrelevant then why do you feel the need to downplay it by calling it something other than what it is?

Because the obsession with talking about it as if it was the crime of the century is an attempt to justify Brown's killing.

It was a relatively minor crime the store didn't even call police to report. He didn't deserve to be gunned down for it, and the beef between Wilson and Brown appears to have had nothing to do with it.

#71 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:06 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#65 Right in #28 you say "why should I believe" the information the police chief released.

So the police release information and you seem to refuse to believe it. Then you chastise them for not releasing information insinuating that it would put your conspiracy theories to rest.

That doesn't seem to jive.

#72 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 02:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

Police get to keep information to themselves during investigations all the time.

They don't keep the basic facts of an officer-involved shooting to themselves. I'll bet in the California case you're talking about, the original news stories on the shooting included the police explanation about what the officer said he did.

It boggles my mind we've never been told exactly what Wilson said to Ferguson police after the incident. Seventeen days have passed since the incident.

We keep hearing in the press what friends of his claim he said to them. But there's no way to put that to the test, because Wilson can claim they were mistaken about what he said.

#73 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:10 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

#71 Not according to the police chief - www.usatoday.com

#74 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 02:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Actually, 'Notch is correct. Prosecutors and law enforcement almost never release information during an ongoing investigation. This case is rare because of the enormous public interest and backlash to what occurred. This might not be the best case for police to follow the normal protocols. On the other hand, to avoid the lynch mob mentality, maybe under circs such as these it is paramount to follow the protocols.

Regardless, in a case such as this, the delay in releasing info only heightens suspicions and distrust of the police.

#75 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-26 02:11 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

#73 Don't believe everything you hear in the news. Wilson's friend, just like Brown's friend, are fully capable of speaking out of turn (as well as imagination).

#76 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 02:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

"It boggles my mind we've never been told exactly what Wilson said to Ferguson police after the incident. Seventeen days have passed since the incident."

I wouldn't claim that. Obama has been claiming on going investigation for months on many things.

#77 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 02:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

That doesn't seem to jive.

What doesn't jive is the Ferguson police chief stating that Wilson did not stop Brown because of stolen cigars and then four hours later saying the opposite. But I've already explained this twice, so if you continue being a pest about it you will be ignored.

#78 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Prosecutors and law enforcement almost never release information during an ongoing investigation.

Yes, they do, Moder8. When cops shoot somebody, the police tell the press their account for why they were shot. I was a reporter for many years. The suggestion cops release nothing -- and somehow Ferguson is behaving normally here -- is completely false.

Do they release everything? Of course not. But I've never seen a cop-involved shooting where the cop's explanation was not provided to the press by police.

#79 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:18 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

#78 He said the stop (initial stop) was not regarding the robbery. The initial stop was regarding jaywalking. In the midst of that initial stop there were suspicions regarding the robbery which was just, allegedly, referenced over the radio.

So although the stop (initial stop) was not related to the robbery, the robbery came into place during the stop as a secondary reason.

Here you have official information from the police that you refuse to accept.

This information is something that Wilson would have had to tell the police was the case, as no one else would have known if he had not said anything about it.

My point is that your point of the police releasing information and easily calming the situation is false. Some information was released and immediately disregarded or counted as false by you and probably others who hold the view you seem to be espousing.

#80 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 02:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Wilson's friend, just like Brown's friend, are fully capable of speaking out of turn (as well as imagination).

I think it is possible Wilson is intentionally speaking through friends in an attempt to sway public opinion in his favor.

#81 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

He didn't deserve to be gunned down for it, and the beef between Wilson and Brown appears to have had nothing to do with it.

#71 | POSTED BY RCADE

There were two sides at The Beef.

Dorian Johnson is left to represent one side. He says he and Brown told Wilson that they were just going to jaywalk for a little while longer.

The Chief of Police represents the other side. He says that Wilson knew of a cigar robbery and while talking with Johnson and Brown began to consider them suspects.

A number of people at the scene were discussing allegations of cigar thefts, so I believe it came up at the scene.

So, while I agree Brown didn't deserve to be gunned down for his strong-armed robbery, I disagree that The Beef had nothing to do with the robbery.

#82 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 02:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

#71 | POSTED BY RCADE

"Because the obsession with talking about it as if it was the crime of the century is an attempt to justify Brown's killing."

Strawman...calling something what it is, is not obsessing about it being the crime of the century nor is it justifying any actions.

"It was a relatively minor crime the store didn't even call police to report. He didn't deserve to be gunned down for it, and the beef between Wilson and Brown appears to have had nothing to do with it."

I don't think anyone has said he deserved to be gunned down for it. That's another strawman "he was shot because he stole cigars". As best I can tell he was either shot because he assaulted an officer or the officer over reacted to a perceived threat and unlawfully killed Mr. Brown.

Officer Wilson may not have known Mr. Brown had allegedly pulled off this robbery but, Mr. Brown certainly knew he had, and it's a safe bet to think Mr. Brown thought Officer Wilson knew about it. So to say it appears the the robbery had nothing to do with their "beef" can not be known from what we know.

#83 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2014-08-26 02:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

And, yes, I'm calling it shoplifting, because your obsessive insistence that it be described like it was the Lufthansa Heist is getting on my nerves.
#19 | POSTED BY RCADE

Its not that it gets on your nerves, its your mind trying really hard to confirm you bias. It causes anger when things aren't as you think they are given data, so you "downplay" that data. "strong arm" becomes "shoplifting"...

There is zero established relevance between Brown's shooting and the prior incident. Until there is, it doesn't matter what it is called.
#57 | POSTED BY RCADE

If I was a juror, given the lack of eye witnesses. I would want to know the mindset of the victim, and accused at the time of the incident. Certainly the lawyers for both sides would try to sway you one way or the other.

To say that someone that just "shoplifted" and was walking home with their booty wouldn't have an emotion when met by a policeman is absurd. It most definitely would play into a persons reaction.

I would also accept testimony into the "racial" views of Wilson.

But the facts are most important, and the lawyers will try to weave a story to explain the facts. So the current state of mind of the participants is relevant.
The hanging onto old theories in view of new data, and changing the terms used to support your view is, Hypotheses Obsession Syndrome.

#84 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-08-26 02:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

My point is that your point of the police releasing information and easily calming the situation is false.

I never said anything about calming the situation. I said the police should provide Wilson's account because the public has a right to know why he says he shot Brown.

You need to stop characterizing what I think or what I've said and stick to what you think. It wastes time to have to correct someone else's misperceptions when my thoughts are spelled out right up there in the comments.

#85 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:25 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

This is an instance of Florida protocol. It seems to leave room for explanation as to why the information was not released in this case, if this case had been in Florida.

Not all the information is immediately released, and definitely not all of the police reporting information is immediately released.

www.myflsunshine.com

#86 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 02:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

... Mr. Brown certainly knew he had, and it's a safe bet to think Mr. Brown thought Officer Wilson knew about it. ...

I'm not interested in "safe bets," I'm interested in facts. The police chief initially said the stop was about jaywalking.

The hanging onto old theories in view of new data, and changing the terms used to support your view is, Hypotheses Obsession Syndrome.

My hypothesis is that I don't know whether Brown charged Wilson, so I don't know if the shooting was justified or not.

My other hypothesis is that the Ferguson police have behaved like a criminal organization engaging in a cover up, so there should be a thorough outside investigation.

I don't need to contort new data to support either hypothesis.

#87 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:31 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Per Rcade: "I said the police should provide Wilson's account because the public has a right to know why he says he shot Brown."

...Unless of course the authorities are seriously considering filing charges against Wilson in which case his 5th and 6th Amendment rights should take precedence over the public's desire to know. Nothing taints a fair trial like misleading and partial pre-trial publicity. That is nothing no law enforcement agency should knowingly play into. (And yes, I am aware of the statements unprofessionally already made by the police chief.)

#88 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-26 02:32 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

Not all the information is immediately released ...

I never said all of the information was immediately released. I said when a cop shoots somebody the police tell the press why the cop said he shot somebody.

#90 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:34 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I've also said that the officer likely has no physically visible injuries b/c if he did the police would have already released the photos.

#40 | Posted by Dalton

I have read that the cop has a fractured eye socket from being punched while fighting for the gun in the cop car.

#91 | Posted by Marty at 2014-08-26 02:34 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

#91 | POSTED BY MARTY

Too bad you didn't keep reading. Otherwise you'd know that was proven false.

#92 | Posted by Lohocla at 2014-08-26 02:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not interested in "safe bets," I'm interested in facts.
#87 | POSTED BY RCADE

Really because earlier up thread you couldn't be bothered with the fact of what a strong armed robbery is, because "it gets on your nerves".

Care to revise you above statement in light of only being concerned with facts?

#93 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2014-08-26 02:35 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

Unless of course the authorities are seriously considering filing charges against Wilson in which case his 5th and 6th Amendment rights should take precedence over the public's desire to know.

Wilson would have to take the fifth for his Fifth Amendment rights to be relevant. And if a cop did that after shooting somebody, police could (and should) tell the press that.

I think you have an excessive and harmful view of what's necessary to keep secret from the press to ensure a fair trial. When a cop shoots somebody, if the cop's explanation was kept secret until the trial it would destroy public faith in the police.

When Dillon Taylor was shot in Utah, the police provided the cop's explanation to them. This is the norm, not the self-serving secrecy in Ferguson that kept the cop's explanation hidden while damaging and possibly irrelevant information about Brown committing a !!!STRONG ARM ROBBERY!!! was shared.

#96 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:40 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

I think it is possible Wilson is intentionally speaking through friends in an attempt to sway public opinion in his favor.

#81 | POSTED BY RCADE

That's the only reason any "eyewitness" gives an account outside of a deposition or courtroom.

I can't believe that Dorian Johnson, Piaget Crenshaw, and Tiffany Mitchell gave media interviews, telling their accounts with lawyers sitting next to them. The lawyers are supposed to do the talking, to preserve the integrity of the client's account. That's why lawyers are called 'mouthpieces.'

Each of these 3 witnesses has contradicted themselves on various key points of their testimony in these interviews. If I can find these inconsistencies from my computer in California, the lawyer(s) who confront these witnesses in court will have a field day.

"We're you mistaken then, or are you mistaken now."

#97 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 02:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

b/c if he did the police would have already released the photos.
#40 | Posted by Dalton

I think we have no idea what constraints are placed on the police releasing information for ongoing cases in normal circumstances, let alone once the Feds get involved.

#99 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 02:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

#96

When a cop shoots somebody, if the cop's explanation was kept secret until the trial it would destroy public faith in the police.

Would releasing this information calm the situation? Would the information released be believed by those who were requesting such information?

#100 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 02:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

The lawyers are supposed to do the talking, to preserve the integrity of the client's account.

I don't think the lawyer for Piaget Crenshaw is necessarily concerned with making sure her potential testimony in a future trial is uncompromised. She's not a crime suspect. She's just a witness.

A lawyer for Dorian Johnson, on the other hand, should be looking out for him to avoid prosecution for any crimes cops might allege he committed that day.

#101 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Would releasing this information calm the situation? Would the information released be believed by those who were requesting such information?

Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. The police serve us and have an obligation to explain their actions to the public when they kill somebody.

#102 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:49 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Crump was an idiot in his handling of witness media accounts in Trayvon Martin case and he's not doing any better by letting witnesses talk now.

Crump's single biggest blunder was introducing Zimmerman's back-to-the-scene media account as evidence at trial. The account ended up serving as Zimmerman's testimony, very effectively.

If Crump had learned anything, he would have told the Brown family in his very first phone coversation to not talk to the media. He should have gotten a hold of the key witnesses and got them to shut up, too, so they would not be tainted goods at the trial.

#103 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Heur: I don't know if I would believe the info provided by Wilson, but as an outsider watching events unfold, I for one certainly do want to know what he initially told his superiors in the PD.

On the other hand, the defense attorney in me is aghast at the notion of such a statement being made public while the possibility of prosecution still looms. Wilson should be entitled to the basic protections including not having the public pre-judge the case if it is to be prosecuted. If it turns out that no charges will be filed, by all means, make his initial statements public.

#104 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-26 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

..Unless of course the authorities are seriously considering filing charges against Wilson in which case his 5th and 6th Amendment rights should take precedence over the public's desire to know. Nothing taints a fair trial like misleading and partial pre-trial publicity. That is nothing no law enforcement agency should knowingly play into. (And yes, I am aware of the statements unprofessionally already made by the police chief.)

#88 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-26 02:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

I would agree if this were some average joe off of the street but he wasn't. He is a cop that is SUPPOSED to serve and protect the citizenry of his locality. His actions on the clock should be made available to the public because he is accountable to the public by his very vocation.

#105 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-26 02:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Crump's single biggest blunder was introducing Zimmerman's back-to-the-scene media account as evidence at trial.

That wasn't Crump. It was Jacksonville's walking talking miscarraige of justice, Angela Corey. Crump had nothing to do with the criminal trial.

#106 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

#104 I would also like to know, I also understand why such information might be kept under wraps considering the eyewitness situation, and mob scene situation they are facing (worse upon the initial news of the event).

The only way the police chief could know the details of the robbery coming into play during the stop is from personal information given by Wilson.

So, there has been some information given from Wilson in the reporting on the matter.

#107 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 02:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Re #84 and #71

www.lawofficer.com

This police chief makes #84's point about the emotions/actions right after shoplifting. So to say as in #71 that the two are not related is absurd; they most definitely would be related in Brown's emotions.

#108 | Posted by Eyesore at 2014-08-26 02:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

I don't think the lawyer for Piaget Crenshaw is necessarily concerned with making sure her potential testimony in a future trial is uncompromised. She's not a crime suspect. She's just a witness.

#101 | POSTED BY RCADE

Letting her talk is Crump's mistake.

#109 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 02:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Wonder why that might be?

The cops don't want to put out a statement that might contradict the evidence.

#110 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2014-08-26 02:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Letting her talk is Crump's mistake.

Her attorney is Karen Lewis. I don't think Lewis and Crump are affiliated.

#111 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 02:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

My other hypothesis is that the Ferguson police have behaved like a criminal organization engaging in a cover up, so there should be a thorough outside investigation.

#87 | POSTED BY RCADE

I don't know much about what they're allowed to do, but this will be an interesting case to follow to find out.

It's a separate issue from the details of the shooting of Mike Brown, although the issue revolves around what the details are and when the police knew them.

#112 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Letting her talk is Crump's mistake.

Her attorney is Karen Lewis. I don't think Lewis and Crump are affiliated.

#111 | POSTED BY RCADE

I get that, and I don't know that Crump hasn't tried to shut her up, but he should have.

#113 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

So to say as in #71 that the two are not related is absurd; they most definitely would be related in Brown's emotions.

You're engaging in speculation and calling it certainty.

Per Johnson's account: Brown's state of mind didn't make Wilson roll up on him and say "get the ---- on the sidewalk." Brown's state of mind didn't make Wilson drive past and then stop to confront him. Brown's state of mind didn't make Wilson open his door and strike Brown and Johnson with it, causing the door to ricochet back on him.

We have no idea when Brown's state of mind played a role in the confrontation. So using it to justify in any way his shooting is dubious.

#114 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:03 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I get that, and I don't know that Crump hasn't tried to shut her up, but he should have.

I don't think Crump can be telling witnesses (who are not his clients) what to say or not to say. It might be considered obstruction of justice.

#115 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

Crump's single biggest blunder was introducing Zimmerman's back-to-the-scene media account as evidence at trial.

That wasn't Crump. It was Jacksonville's walking talking miscarraige of justice, Angela Corey. Crump had nothing to do with the criminal trial.

#106 | POSTED BY RCADE

Even worse for Crump. He should have learned from that mistake. Big time.

Does he not realize the family is going to need these witnesses if they have a hope for a successful trial? You don't get a cop arrested on mob sentiment alone.

#116 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

It might be considered obstruction of justice.

#115 | POSTED BY RCADE

Media accounts, RCade. Media accounts are not testimony, but can and will be used to impeach these witnesses.

There shouldn't be five different accounts available to the public online outside of the evidentiary process.

#117 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

Of course, the accounts these witnesses have been giving in interviews wouldn't be problematic if they lined up with the physical evidence.

#118 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Does he not realize the family is going to need these witnesses if they have a hope for a successful trial?

Crump's job in the Zimmerman case was making sure Trayvon Martin's death was prosecuted. He succeeded.

Getting Wilson prosecuted is a far more difficult feat, since cops are almost never prosecuted when they shoot somebody.

#119 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

There shouldn't be five different accounts available to the public online outside of the evidentiary process.

The real world is not a courtroom. People who witness something that becomes a worldwide scandal are going to talk to the press, and their accounts aren't always going to be 100% consistent. People misremember or misstate things all the time.

#120 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

We have no idea when Brown's state of mind played a role in the confrontation. So using it to justify in any way his shooting is dubious.

#114 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:03 PM

I never said it justifies his shooting. I'm saying your statement that the two incidents are not related is absurd.

#121 | Posted by Eyesore at 2014-08-26 03:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

There shouldn't be five different accounts available to the public online outside of the evidentiary process.

The real world is not a courtroom. People who witness something that becomes a worldwide scandal are going to talk to the press, and their accounts aren't always going to be 100% consistent. People misremember or misstate things all the time.

#120 | POSTED BY RCADE

That's exactly why we don't know what witnesses or evidence the police are going to bring out. As long as they are allowed to keep info to themselves in this way, they are doing it right.

It's a legal strategy as old as dirt called "hide the ball." Benchmark the hostile witnesses early and often. Show them the ball at the last possible moment.

#122 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

I never said it justifies his shooting. I'm saying your statement that the two incidents are not related is absurd.

I said that there's zero evidence establishing that they are related, so until there is, it doesn't matter what the theft is called. I didn't say definitively they are not related.

#123 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

#102 Of course it matters, you talk of it destroying the public's faith in the police.

Please stop saying it doesn't matter when you are seeming to make it very clear that it matters.

The police do not always release this information nor are they always necessitated to do so.

#124 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 03:19 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

People misremember or misstate things all the time.

#120 | POSTED BY RCADE

You're right, they do, and as witnesses their original accounts serve as benchmarks. "Were you mistaken then, or are you mistaken now?"

Piaget Crenshaw gave a little-seen interview within 24 hours of the shooting that is going to benchmark her very badly, from Brown's perspective. Crump probably could not have helped at that time.

#125 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

As long as they are allowed to keep info to themselves in this way, they are doing it right.

The purpose of the police isn't to win, it is to serve justice.

#126 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:21 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Piaget Crenshaw gave a little-seen interview within 24 hours of the shooting that is going to benchmark her very badly ...

Unless I'm mistaken, she didn't see much until after Brown was dead.

#127 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

#123 There is evidence they are related, the police chief said the robbery suspicion played into the stop which was initially carried out due to jaywalking - www.usatoday.com

#128 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 03:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

The police do not always release this information nor are they always necessitated to do so.

In 25 years of being in the journalism business or being a news blogger/publisher, I am only aware of one case where a cop shot somebody and police refused to say why the cop did it.

Ferguson police wouldn't even say how many times Brown was shot or reveal the findings from his autopsy.

#129 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:23 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

There is evidence they are related, the police chief said ...

... and said something different four hours earlier. Not believable. I'm waiting for better information than that idiot's contradictory statements.

#130 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:25 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

In 25 years of being in the journalism business or being a news blogger/publisher, I am only aware of one case where a cop shot somebody and police refused to say why the cop did it.
Ferguson police wouldn't even say how many times Brown was shot or reveal the findings from his autopsy.

#129 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2014-08-26 03:23 PM | FLAG:

You've got me curious. What case is that?

#132 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-26 03:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

#130 Don't say there is no evidence then. There may be no proof, but there is evidence. Whether that evidence is good or bad depends on how far you (plural) buy the conspiracy theory that the cops are committed to a cover up.

It is information from the police, released to explain the situation and also information that could have only come from Wilson as only he would know if he heard the robbery claim over the radio and then suspected Brown based on that information.

#133 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 03:27 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

Piaget Crenshaw starts her accounts at some point in The Tussle. In an early interview she admits that she did not see the part where Brown turned around. She was moving behind the concrete block wall in front of her apartment to get from the window to the front balcony where she could see.

But that admission hasn't stopped her from giving accounts of Brown being shot at while fleeing and turning around when he felt a bullet from behind.

Fact is, she didn't see The Tussle start, admits she couldn't hear it, and didn't see Brown turn around.

That fact hasn't kept her from adding flourishes later, including a concession that Brown may have taken a small step towards Wilson prior to Wilson shooting him at the turnaround.

#134 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm waiting for better information than that idiot's contradictory statements.

#130 | POSTED BY RCADE

Me too.

In the meantime, we know from Dorian Johnson's lawyer that Johnson admitted to the FBI that Brown had taken the cigars. So we know that Brown and Johnson had the shoplifting-cum-strong-arm-
robbery on their minds.

#135 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

You've got me curious. What case is that?

I meant this one. Sorry for the confusion. I find the secrecy attempted by Ferguson police to be unprecedented and a major reason for the unrest.

#136 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

I find the secrecy attempted by Ferguson police to be unprecedented and a major reason for the unrest.

#136 | POSTED BY RCADE

How do you find the hyperbole of the "eyewitnesses?"

#137 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

#135 - Exactly!

#138 | Posted by Eyesore at 2014-08-26 03:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

In the meantime, we know from Dorian Johnson's lawyer that Johnson admitted to the FBI that Brown had taken the cigars.

Maybe, but there's confusion on that point. Look at this interview of Johnson:

"About 20 minutes before the shooting, Johnson said he saw Brown walking down the street and decided to catch up with him."

www.msnbc.com

That says nothing about Johnson being in the store with Brown, but instead that they ran into each other on the street.

Until the FBI says Johnson told them that I think it's in question.

#139 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

From August 18th:

Ferguson police chief: 911 audio to be released 'shortly'
www.ksdk.com

"The police chief said a St. Louis County coroner's report has not been released due, in part, to concerns that releasing certain details--such as the exact number of gunshot wounds on Brown's body--could taint possible witness testimony."

"He said the officer who killed Michael Brown was the only person who fired the gun, disputing claims that Brown wrestled the gun away momentarily and attempted to shoot the officer. The chief added that the officer in question was taken to the hospital to be examined for facial injuries. Jackson said one side of the officer's face was swollen."


From 08/21/2014

Michael Brown Shooting: Why Ferguson Police Never Filed 'Incident Report'
www.nbcnews.com

"The St. Louis County police department presumably did file an incident report, but any such documents will not be made public until a grand jury investigating the officer-involved shooting concludes its investigation, according to officials from the office who briefed NBC News on the case.

The grand jury reviewing the facts in the case is impaneled until mid-September, but could continue to deliberate beyond its term, in which case their sole focus would be on the shooting of Brown. At the conclusion of its investigation, the grand jury will decide whether to indict Wilson in connection with the shooting.

The St. Louis County prosecutor's office stressed that it is cooperating with the concurrent federal investigation of Brown's death and is sharing information with FBI agents who are looking into whether his civil rights were violated."

#140 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 03:35 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

How do you find the hyperbole of the "eyewitnesses?"

I've ignored most of them, figuring the trauma of Brown lying dead on the street for four hours baking in the sun and the unrest it sparked would inspire some people to invent or embellish.

#141 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rcade, you're quoting Johnson's account as gospel there. Interesting.

#142 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2014-08-26 03:41 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I am only aware of one case where a cop shot somebody and police refused to say why the cop did it.

Ferguson police wouldn't even say how many times Brown was shot or reveal the findings from his autopsy.
#129 | POSTED BY RCADE

Ferguson police most definitely have said why the cop did it. From the comments of people at the scene of the shooting, we know that allegations of the cigar robbery were put forward at that time. More significantly, there was a struggle at the cruiser in which Brown went for the officer's weapon. Wilson was injured in the struggle. Attempting to disarm an officer is a felony in and of itself, similar to an attempt on an officer's life. So there is the basics of the 'why.'

What the police haven't provided is much evidence to back up their case.

#143 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

Brown lying dead on the street for four hours baking in the sun and the unrest it sparked would inspire some people to invent or embellish.

#141 | POSTED BY RCADE

You do know the shooting scene investigation was held up by gunfire in the crowd?

#144 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rcade, you're quoting Johnson's account as gospel there. Interesting.

If you're referring to #114, I wasn't offering it as gospel truth. That's why I put "Per Johnson's account" in front of those claims.

Ferguson police most definitely have said why the cop did it.

Show me where they said (in effect) "this is what Wilson told us" and provided a thorough accounting of his account of the incident.

Several days after the shooting, they wouldn't even tell the press how many times Brown was shot.

#145 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 03:44 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"About 20 minutes before the shooting, Johnson said he saw Brown walking down the street and decided to catch up with him."

www.msnbc.com

That says nothing about Johnson being in the store with Brown, but instead that they ran into each other on the street.
Until the FBI says Johnson told them that I think it's in question.

#139 | POSTED BY RCADE

That says nothing about Johnson being in the store with Brown, but instead that they ran into each other on the street.
Until the FBI says Johnson told them that I think it's in question.

#139 | POSTED BY RCADE

Two things:

1) The robbery occurred 10 minutes beofre the shooting, so Johnson catching up with Brown 20 minutes before the shooting is a minor point of interest.

2) Here's a hypothetical: If Johnson changed his testimony about The Beef, The Tussle, The Shot in the Back, The Turnaround and The Shooting would you find him more credible? Ignore the outstanding arrest warrant for lying to police in your answer.

#146 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 03:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Several days after the shooting, they wouldn't even tell the press how many times Brown was shot.

#145 | POSTED BY RCADE

Did they have to? It seems some witnesses were still making up their mind about what happened. Look at how Crenshaw and Mitchell spun their 'shot in the back' account for the benefits to the investigators. Crenshaw had already benchmarked herself as not seeing The Turnaround and she's out coughing up gems.

What makes you say the press had a right to know how many times Brown was shot?

#147 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 04:00 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

At this point I'm waiting for what witnesses and Wilson told police and/or the FBI.

#148 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 04:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

What makes you say the press had a right to know how many times Brown was shot?

If you don't think the public has a right to know how many times the cops shot somebody, when will you be emigrating to a country more consistent with your worldview like North Korea?

#149 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 04:02 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Show me where they said (in effect) "this is what Wilson told us" and provided a thorough accounting of his account of the incident.

#145 | POSTED BY RCADE

August 10th, the next day, at the police press conference:

www.youtube.com

#150 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 04:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

#145 The explanation as to why they wouldn't tell how many times Brown was shot was give in #140 :

Ferguson police chief: 911 audio to be released 'shortly'
www.ksdk.com

"The police chief said a St. Louis County coroner's report has not been released due, in part, to concerns that releasing certain details--such as the exact number of gunshot wounds on Brown's body--could taint possible witness testimony."

"He said the officer who killed Michael Brown was the only person who fired the gun, disputing claims that Brown wrestled the gun away momentarily and attempted to shoot the officer. The chief added that the officer in question was taken to the hospital to be examined for facial injuries. Jackson said one side of the officer's face was swollen."


#151 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-26 04:05 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

I don't call that press conference "a thorough accounting" but it is the 'why.'

Don't hold your breath for a thorough accounting until the grand jury is done. From what I've read, you'll be waiting into October.

#152 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 04:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you don't think the public has a right to know how many times the cops shot somebody, when will you be emigrating to a country more consistent with your worldview like North Korea?

#149 | POSTED BY RCADE

Great hyperbole, my man.

#153 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 04:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

Great hyperbole, my man.

North Korea is my favorite repressive state. I love photos of Kim Jong Un touring industrial factories and looking like a kid having his birthday at McDonald's:

www.nbcnews.com

#154 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 04:13 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

1) The robbery occurred 10 minutes beofre the shooting, so Johnson catching up with Brown 20 minutes before the shooting is a minor point of interest.

#146 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

Since we're talking about hyperbole, I'd like to reserve the right to revise this 'minor point' in the future.

If Johnson were to admit that he had a bag of weed with him when he caught up to Brown, but had no papers or cigars that would be very interesting. Or if Johnson were to admit that he was high before catching up to Brown or during the incident, that would be more significant.

Not North Korea significant, mind you, but significant.

#155 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 04:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

That says nothing about Johnson being in the store with Brown, but instead that they ran into each other on the street.

Until the FBI says Johnson told them that I think it's in question.

#139 | POSTED BY RCADE

The exact wording may be of interest, but you may not want to be on record saying Johnson wasn't in the store with Brown.

#156 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 04:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dix...

You've been citing all these sources for weeks, and unless I'm incorrect, the only statements that matter are the ones witnesses give under oath with the penalty of perjury and you haven't posted a single word of those statements.

While, indeed, a lawyer may use previous statements to impeach witnesses, this is part of the problem with not knowing what Wilson said immediately after the shooting. For everything you've posted, a single statement from Wilson could be undermined by the evidence in the case as well as the other witnesses testimony. We simply don't know. We also don't know if Brown had given the clerk any money whatsoever for what he is shown taking in the video, and every witness deserves to be heard and cross-examined under oath before passing judgment on their veracity and character. You continue to present hearsay statements as though they're equally credible with eyewitnesses who were at the scene. They are not comparable in weight and hearsay's inadmissible in court, so why continue to tout it?

Wilson continues to receive this benefit of the doubt while no one else has been immune to the nitpicking of minute details and nuances of what they may or may not have seen or said about the shooting. No one ever states that Brown never had nor will have his day in court to answer for his alleged crime, but very few have a problem with finding him guilty by their pronouncements. I do seem to remember the Rodney King video and how a jury found the officers not guilty even though to the untrained eye it appeared King got an unjustifiable beating. At this point, no one has stated whether Brown paid for anything that day, nor what caused him to respond to the clerk in the manner that he did. While the details of the 'encounter' at the car are still not detailed by evidence, the notion of Brown being the aggressor is undercut by Wilson stopping, backing up and grabbing Brown through his window. No one has stated that Wilson told Brown he was under arrest before the physical encounter began. These are very important parts of the story that only Wilson and the evidence can answer. That is why the lack of simple details from the police has people thinking they are trying to hide something. I guess only time will tell.

#158 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 05:17 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Personally I think this recording is going to raise the possibility there were two gunmen.

rwd

#159 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2014-08-26 05:21 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

How do we know Johnson didn't shoot Brown? I hear that Johnson is black. Needs to be looked into.

#160 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-26 05:27 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

They are not comparable in weight and hearsay's inadmissible in court, so why continue to tout it?

#158 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

As a witness, just about any statement you have made about the matter at hand may be admissible.

It is laughable to suggest that Dorian Johnson gets to say that what Dorian Johnson said at the scene of the shooting or in any of these subsequent interviews was hearsay.

If the Wilson defense sees fit, these statements can and will be used to impeach the testimony of these witnesses.

#161 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

In all the words I've written on this subject not a single sentence has involved anything but the facts and speculations of this incident.
Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-19 09:33 PM | Reply

You've been citing all these sources for weeks, and unless I'm incorrect, the only statements that matter are the ones witnesses give under oath with the penalty of perjury and you haven't posted a single word of those statements.
#158 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 05:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

You are walking on thin ice roma.

rwd

#162 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2014-08-26 05:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is laughable to suggest that Dorian Johnson gets to say that what Dorian Johnson said at the scene of the shooting or in any of these subsequent interviews was hearsay.

The hearsay is anything the female caller said on the radio program that you continue to recount as though it were a factual statement from Wilson himself. It isn't and it never will be but you lump them in with the actual eyewitness accounts.

#163 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 05:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe there are other, better witnesses that the Brown family or the Feds have managed to keep under wraps.

The simple fact is that Dorian Johnson was Mike Brown's sole companion at this event, and his testimony does not line up with the evidence in a number of very significant points. No amount of apologizing you are willing to do for Johnson will erase the accounts he has already given.

"Was he lying then, or is he lying now?" It's one or the other, and neither is good for Brown's case.

#164 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

You are walking on thin ice roma.

You've yet to understand much of what I've written. Why not stop why you're still behind?

#165 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 05:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

that you continue to recount as though it were a factual statement from Wilson himself. It isn't and it never will be but you lump them in with the actual eyewitness accounts.

#163 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

You must have me confused with some other Retorter, Tony. I, nor anyone I have read here, is suggesting that she is an eyewitness.

I have said several times that having a friend -- or better, a lawyer, or some 'mouthpiece' (see my #97 above, for example) -- is the preferred method to influence opinion without going on record and getting benchmarked.

#166 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

#162

Do you not see where those two statements are perfectly congruent with each other?

Is there intelligent life out there on the rightwing Don?

#167 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 05:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

You are walking on thin ice roma.

You've yet to understand much of what I've written. Why not stop why you're still behind?

#165 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

Tony, respectfully, it has become clear in your discourse on this matter that you are not in command of the words you type.

#168 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

end italics

#169 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Tony, respectfully, it has become clear in your discourse on this matter that you are not in command of the words you type.

#170 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

unless I'm incorrect, the only statements that matter are the ones witnesses give under oath with the penalty of perjury and you haven't posted a single word of those statements.

#158 | Posted by tonyroma

Yes, Tony, you are incorrect.

#171 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dix...

I've never said that. I said you use her account when you assume that Wilson was under duress from Brown and not the actual aggressor himself. All I'm saying is that to act as though Wilson's account is impeccable and Johnson is somehow suspect isn't allowing for nature to take its course. The FBI interviewed Johnson for over 4 hours under penalty of perjury. THAT is the only testimony that we should be interested in and your assertion that any of it is contradicted by evidence that has yet to be released is also premature.

Eyewitnesses don't have to be correct on every perceivable detail to be considered credible, and they certainly don't deserve to be called liars if and when contradictions arise. Veracity is for juries and judges to decide, not sideline reporters.

#172 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 05:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Tony, what part of 'benchmark' are you not getting?

#173 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Veracity is for juries and judges to decide, not sideline reporters.

#172 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

"No justice, no peace!"

"When do we want it? Now!"

Not my words.

#174 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

You've yet to understand much of what I've written.

#165 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 05:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

[...] In practically every debatable instance where the facts are not completely known you use speculation as your main source of factual opinion on any matter.

#175 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2014-08-26 05:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

In the meantime, we know from Dorian Johnson's lawyer that Johnson admitted to the FBI that Brown had taken the cigars. So we know that Brown and Johnson had the shoplifting-cum-strong-arm-
robbery on their minds.

#135 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-26 03:30 PM

Why are you still projecting criminal intent upon the part of Johnson? We have covered his actions in the store numerous times. Yet you still conflate Browns criminal behavior with that of Johnson based on nothing but association. In fact, video evidence suggests Johnson had no interest in stealing the cigars. Why do you not acknowledge this? Why do you continue to insist on portraying Johnson as a criminal when he did not commit a crime?

#176 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 05:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

I, nor anyone I have read here, is suggesting that she is an eyewitness.

Nor did I, read above.

Tony, respectfully, it has become clear in your discourse on this matter that you are not in command of the words you type.

It has become equally clear that you've jumped to unfounded conclusions based on your own recitation of what people have allegedly said through various media sources, none of which carry the weight of testimony under oath.

How's my command of english now?

#177 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 05:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

When Wilson's testimony comes available I'll scrutinize that, too, Tony.

I got drawn into this quagmire when the narrative was 'gentle teen executed for jaywalking while black.' I started to listen to the accounts upon which the demands for immediate justice were based and began to doubt their -- what's your two bit word? -- veracity.

You do remember those days?

#178 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Tony, respectfully, it has become clear in your discourse on this matter that you are not in command of the words you type.

It has become equally clear that you've jumped to unfounded conclusions based on your own recitation of what people have allegedly said through various media sources, none of which carry the weight of testimony under oath.

How's my command of english now?

#177 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

Dense as London fog, Tony.

I am saying that the eyewitnesses have been benchmarking their accounts. When they go to give their weighty testimony, these benchmark accounts can and will be used against them.

It is that simple.

#179 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:57 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Do you not see where those two statements are perfectly congruent with each other?
#167 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 05:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Actually, no I do not. But I will let you explain it to me if you keep it under 50 words.

spec·u·la·tion

the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

fac·tu·al adjective

limited to, involving, or based on facts

rwd

#180 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2014-08-26 05:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

It has become equally clear that you've jumped to unfounded conclusions

#177 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

What conclusions have I jumped to, Tony, beyond that a number of witnesses have given accounts that are contradicted by evidence such as the Baden examination or their own previous account?

That conclusion is very well founded.

#181 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 05:59 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

In practically every debatable instance where the facts are not completely known you use speculation as your main source of factual opinion on any matter.

Sorry Don, but I write how I write. That is precisely what my first statement means. I spoke to actual facts (ie. Brown WAS shot; Wilson WAS the shooter; etc.) and speculation (everything else not supported by actual facts as they are known at the time). I spoke about both categories as did everyone else. It was the baseline for discussion.

My second statement supports the first by saying Dix's "speculations" are NOT facts no matter how passionately he presents them. The eyewitness' statements under oath are the only ones that matter as a point of law. They cannot be charged with perjury (lying) unless they're under oath at the time they make their statements. The ones Dix recounts were not given under oath but he tries to imply "lying" because they don't align with his understanding of the evidence so far released, and many more pieces of evidence speculated about. They may become facts once more information is released, but they aren't now.

Is that more clear?

#182 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 06:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Notch: It's weird that you can read so much about this case and yet be unable to figure out Johnson wasn't robbing the store.

#183 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 06:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

What conclusions have I jumped to, Tony, beyond that a number of witnesses have given accounts that are contradicted by evidence such as the Baden examination or their own previous account?
That conclusion is very well founded.

#181 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-26 05:59 PM

How about the notion that Johnson walked into the store with the preconceived intent to rob it.

#184 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 06:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Brown robbed the store. Johnson was with him. Johnson's lawyer says at least that much.

Find me a post where I've said Johnson robbed the store. I haven't posted that.

#185 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 06:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

No one is denying anything. What Brown did or didn't do has zero to do with the manner the cop executed him when he surrendered.
Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-16 12:14 PM | Reply

Speculating much roma? You write so much crap it is hard for you to keep track of it. #1 or #2

ex·e·cute

1.
carry out or put into effect (a plan, order, or course of action).
"the corporation executed a series of financial deals"

2.
carry out a sentence of death on (a legally condemned person).

rwd

#186 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2014-08-26 06:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Find me a post where I've said Johnson robbed the store. I haven't posted that.
#185 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-26 06:05 PM

You have continuously presented Johnson's behavior and intent on par with that of Brown based on NOTHING but association:

In the meantime, we know from Dorian Johnson's lawyer that Johnson admitted to the FBI that Brown had taken the cigars. So we know that Brown and Johnson had the shoplifting-cum-strong-arm-
robbery on their minds.
#135 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-26 03:30 PM

#187 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 06:11 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

The eyewitness' statements under oath are the only ones that matter as a point of law. They cannot be charged with perjury (lying) unless they're under oath at the time they make their statements. The ones Dix recounts were not given under oath but he tries to imply "lying" because they don't align with his understanding of the evidence so far released, and many more pieces of evidence speculated about. They may become facts once more information is released, but they aren't now.
Is that more clear?

#182 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

Tony, impeachment of a witness usually stops far short of perjury charges. Benchmarking is comparing a witness's testimony to their previous statements. Dorian Johnson, the single most important witness on Brown's side of this case, has benchmarked himself very significantly.

When significant contradictions within a witnesses own statements or facts arise, it naturally follows to question whether the witness is only truthful when under oath. That is how this works.

#188 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 06:14 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Get it right guys. Dorian Johnson didnt rob the Ferguson Market. It was the other place in Jefferson county he stole from. Hence his open warrants.

www.foxnews.com

#189 | Posted by aescal at 2014-08-26 06:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

2.
carry out a sentence of death on (a legally condemned person).

Is Brown alive? How did he die? Are you not of the opinion that his killing occurred under Wilson's legal right to defend himself?

Is not the taking of a life under the color of law not synonymous with the definition of execution?

ex•e•cu•tion (ˌɛk sɪˈkyu ʃən)

n.
1. the act or process of executing.
2. the state or fact of being executed.
www.thefreedictionary.com


Is english your second language or just a hobby?

Give up yet?

#190 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 06:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

#188

Why are you arguing with yourself? Do you have rwd disease too? Please re-read post #158, I already addressed this. We're in complete agreement, but my point transcends that.

#191 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 06:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

You have continuously presented Johnson's behavior and intent on par with that of Brown based on NOTHING but association:

#187 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

No, I haven't held Johnson and Brown's behavior on par at all.

Brown got in The Tussle with Wilson. Johnson stood either an inch away (his account) or 10 feet away. Brown fled down the middle of the street. Johnson hid behind the first car. Brown turned and faced the cop, got stopped in his tracks by a bullet to the brain and fell dead. Johnson tells a tale with other details not supported by the Baden examination, yet a tale that ends with Johnson fleeing the scene at some point.

Brown's behavior ended up with him getting killed by Wilson. Johnson's behavior left him to tell the tale, several different ways.

#192 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 06:20 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

www.foxnews.com
#189 | POSTED BY AESCAL AT 2014-08-26 06:15 PM | FLAG:

FTA: Johnson's attorney Freeman Bosley Jr. told WND.com that the situation regarding Johnson's legal troubles has been taken care of, and has no impact on Johnson's credibility in the Brown case.

"(Johnson) was held in jail in St. Louis for 14 days, waiting on Cole County to come get him, based on the warrant," Bosley told WND.com. "They never came, so the city let him go."

Petty theft of a "parcel" and lying about his first name are minor infractions considering the potential impact of his testimony. Considering he was never convicted of anything, this part of the story does not carry much weight, IMO. Witnesses with worse credibility have been used and influenced important cases.

#193 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 06:21 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

Dorian Johnson didnt rob the Ferguson Market. It was the other place in Jefferson county he stole from. Hence his open warrants.
www.foxnews.com

#189 | POSTED BY AESCA

I'm clear as can be on that. The open warrants are not for the robbery in Jefferson City but for, of all things, making a false report to the police in association with the robbery.

#194 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 06:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

lying about his first name are minor infractions considering the potential impact of his testimony. Considering he was never convicted of anything, this part of the story does not carry much weight, IMO. Witnesses with worse credibility have been used and influenced important cases.

#193 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

He lied about his age. He told the cops he was a minor. He was convicted -- thus the warrant for his arrest.

Yes, witnesses with worse credibility have been used and influenced important cases. It would be better for Brown if he had some of the significant details straight. Too bad about the benchmarks to the contrary.

#195 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 06:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

#192 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-26 06:20 PM | FLAG:

You have conflated Johnson's behavior in the store, and his preconceived intent walking into it. That's what I've pointed out. Maintain goal posts please considering the example of your posts that I provided.

#196 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 06:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

#192

Are you Mitt Romney? I've haven't seen such a word salad of excuses since he tried to explain his disdain for his own healthcare creation. You have impugned Johnson's credibility and continued to question why anyone would find him believable because of discrepancies in his various media statements and interviews.

Brown's behavior ended up with him getting killed by Wilson.

Michael Jordan stands in awe of your leaping abilities!

#197 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 06:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

my point transcends that.

#191 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

Congratulations on your transcendence. Was it the "we simply don't know yet" part? Cuz you weren't making sense on your other points (except the ones on which you are in complete agreement with me).

LOL

#198 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 06:27 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

You have conflated Johnson's behavior in the store, and his preconceived intent walking into it.

#196 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Where have I discussed Johnson's "preconceived intent" walking into the store? Read carefully and report back.

#199 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 06:29 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

He was convicted -- thus the warrant for his arrest.
#195 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-26 06:24 PM | FLAG:

Convicted in absentia? Haha! No. Warrant to appear in court, more likely. Meaning he hasn't faced a judge. Meaning no conviction. Meaning he was charged. Spent 14 days in jail waiting for jurisdiction to pick him up to face judge. Jurisdiction never came to pick him up. Meaning NO CONVICTION in this instance.

Star Witness In Michael Brown Shooting Charged With Theft, Filing ...
www.ijreview.com/.../170048-
star-witness-michael-brown-
shooting-charge...
5 days ago - Dorian Johnson, the primary witness to the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, has an outstanding warrant for a 2011 theft in Jefferson City ...

#200 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 06:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

"No justice, no peace!"

"When do we want it? Now!"

Not my words.

#174 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

Of course they aren't your words, they make actual sense. The chant is one for "justice" meaning simply that the legal system should render a fair judgment upon Wilson's actions in the same manner Michael Brown's life was forfeited by an agent of the system. The people want and expect him to be tried and either exonerated or convicted by a jury of his peers.

I know, we blacks are quite uppity these days, aren't we?

#201 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 06:34 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

You have impugned Johnson's credibility and continued to question why anyone would find him believable because of discrepancies in his various media statements and interviews.

#197 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

Which part do you find credible?

The cruiser door ricocheting and bouncing back?
Johnson standing an inch away from Brown during The Tussle?
Brown being shot during The Tussle at close range?
Brown being shot in the back -- blam -- while running?
Brown laying, moving, with pain in his eyes after the shot to the brain?
Wilson standing over the fallen Brown, shooting?

#202 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 06:34 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Is not the taking of a life under the color of law not synonymous with the definition of execution?

#190 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 06:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

No it is not, not in this type of circumstance. Your misuse of words and adhering to them is alarming when you put your self forth as some type of intellectual.

rwd

#203 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2014-08-26 06:34 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

Where have I discussed Johnson's "preconceived intent" walking into the store? Read carefully and report back.
#199 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-26 06:29 PM | FLAG:

are you not paying attention?

You have continuously presented Johnson's behavior and intent on par with that of Brown based on NOTHING but association:

In the meantime, we know from Dorian Johnson's lawyer that Johnson admitted to the FBI that Brown had taken the cigars. So we know that Brown and Johnson had the shoplifting-cum-strong-arm-
robbery on their minds.

#135 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-26 03:30 PM

#187 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11 AT 2014-08-26 06:11 PM | FLAG: | NEWSWORTHY 1

#204 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 06:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

I know, we blacks are quite uppity these days, aren't we?

#201 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

Didn't know you're black, Tony. Who cares?

#205 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 06:35 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

"on their minds" when talking with the police ten minutes after the robbery is the same as presenting Johnson's behavior and intent as the same as Brown's?

I think not.

#206 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 06:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

Where have I discussed Johnson's "preconceived intent" walking into the store? Read carefully and report back.
#199 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-26 06:29 PM | FLAG:

Upon reading it MORE carefully, that's a poor example. If I had time I would provide a better one. However, you have presented Johnson as an accessory to the crime. Others have agreed. Especially with the focus on a crime Johnson was never convicted of in another county.

#207 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 06:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Brown's behavior ended up with him getting killed by Wilson.

You're letting your bias show through with this comment, which blames Brown for his death. We don't know that to be true.

#208 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-26 06:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

DIX -

Again on even further review, that is a good example because why would it matter to acknowledge Johnson's mentality post robbery/pre interaction with Wilson ? His behavior is not in question. He didn't commit a crime. Only persons state of mind in question is Brown's yet you, once again, conflate the two. For what purpose do you do this?

#209 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 06:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

DIX -

This was what started my interpretation that you were conflating:

So Johnson is going to risk committing felony crime by lying to authorities, but he's not going to risk a petty theft misdemeanor charge by stealing cigars from the liquor store?
Interesting. Maybe it will be revealed that he is not mentally competent.
#195 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11
Well... He does have an outstanding warrant for his arrest within a 50 mile radius of Jefferson City from a prior incident involving a false report he gave to police in a theft case a couple of years ago that nobody seems to want to drag into this.
Oh, hey. Here's an article about the warrant from a St. Louis news station today:
www.komu.com
POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-20 11:41 PM | REPLY

Rightly wrongly...you do seem overly interested in undermining Johnson unjustly. If I'm mistaken, then so be it. Apologies in advance.

#210 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 06:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Your misuse of words and adhering to them is alarming when you put your self forth as some type of intellectual.

Your argument is with the dictionary and yourself. The reason words have multiple connotations is that they can be used to express multiple different meanings in different contexts. I knew what I meant when I wrote the sentence.

Just because I used the word in a way that you wouldn't, doesn't make either of us wrong.

But it does make one of us less informed than they other.

#211 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-26 07:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

#208. Similarly, Wilson's behavior ended up with him killing Brown. Does that help?

#212 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 07:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

[Johnson's] behavior is not in question. He didn't commit a crime. Only persons state of mind in question is Brown's yet you, once again, conflate the two. For what purpose do you do this?

#209 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Of course Johnson's behavior is in question. He was in a unique position to provide testimony about the incident from start to finish. He is the primary source for the 'executed for jaywalking' narrative.

Where was he during The Beef, The Tussle, The Fleeing, The Turnaround and The Shooting, and why? What did he do? When exactly did he leave the scene and where did he go? Why he did what he did matters, whether it was the robbery, his outstanding warrant for lying to police, or that he simply feared being a black jaywalker around officer Wilson.

#213 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 08:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just because I used the word in a way that you wouldn't, doesn't make either of us wrong.

But it does make one of us less informed than they other.

#211 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

Indeed. It makes the one who thinks that using a word improperly isn't wrong the one who is less informed.

#214 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 08:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh, hey. Here's an article about the warrant from a St. Louis news station today:
www.komu.com
POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-20 11:41 PM | REPLY

Rightly wrongly...you do seem overly interested in undermining Johnson unjustly. If I'm mistaken, then so be it. Apologies in advance.
#210 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

You're apologizing in advance for screwing up in reading a post of mine from 6 days ago? Classic.

This calls for a beer summit! Cheers!

#215 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 08:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Did Johnson's flight take him past the dumpster at the end of the parking lot behind Piaget Crenshaw's building?

To whom did Johnson speak when he returned to the scene?

Why didn't he speak to the police at the scene?

These are good questions.

#216 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-26 08:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why he did what he did matters, whether it was the robbery, his outstanding warrant for lying to police, or that he simply feared being a black jaywalker around officer Wilson.

#213 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

Thats what I'm getting at. You suggest his statement is important yet focus on every reason to disbelieve him, even even ones unrelated to the incident in question, and still offering the suggestion he was an accolice in the robbery when he clearly wasn't (how is it even a question when you watch the surveillance tape?). Instead of approproately acknowledging Johnson's law abiding behavior in the face of illegal behavior, you turn to wild speculative questions regarding destroying of evidence and claiming he was convicted of a crime that he was never convicted of (he was never convicted of theft as you suggest). By doing so, you insinuate Johnson was an accomplice to the crime committed by Brown. Therefore, apology rescinded as you've proven me correct.

#217 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 11:48 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

*accolice=accomplice

#218 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-26 11:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rusty --

You have me confused with another gentleman. Find a post of mine suggesting he is an accomplice at the Ferguson Market robbery. Find a post of mine claiming he was convicted of theft.

You clearly did not read the KOMU article I referenced in the post that has you bunched up. I have been clear that the Jefferson City warrant is for filing a false report with the police.

Well... He does have an outstanding warrant for his arrest within a 50 mile radius of Jefferson City from a prior incident involving a false report he gave to police in a theft case a couple of years ago that nobody seems to want to drag into this.
Oh, hey. Here's an article about the warrant from a St. Louis news station today:
www.komu.com

POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH AT 2014-08-20

Dorian Johnson didnt rob the Ferguson Market. It was the other place in Jefferson county he stole from. Hence his open warrants.
www.foxnews.com

#189 | POSTED BY AESCA

I'm clear as can be on that. The open warrant is not for the robbery in Jefferson City but for, of all things, making a false report to the police in association with the robbery.

#194 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

I reaccept your apology in advance.

#219 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 07:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

*blorp*

#220 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 07:40 AM | Reply | Flag:

you turn to wild speculative questions regarding destroying of evidence

#217 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

You don't think it's conceivable that Brown was walking down the middle of the street with his hands full of Rellos?

Do you think that maybe Brown would have handed the Rellos to Johnson during The Tussle? Do you think that before fleeing the scene Johnson handed the Rellos over to Wilson?

#221 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 07:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

If Johnson didn't leave those Cigarellos at the scene after Brown handed them to him, wouldn't Johnson be in possession of stolen property when he fled?

Just asking.

#222 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 08:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

Since Piaget Crenshaw seems to have Johnson hiding behind a car in front of her apartment, it makes sense that Johnson would have fled behind her building. If Johnson had the Cigarellos, that would put him very close to the dumpster that got set alight later that afternoon. That's not speculation, it's a fact of geography. It would be speculation to say that Johnson dumped the cigars in the dumpster.

You don't think it's conceivable that Johnson had the Cigarellos in hand when Brown was fleeing Wilson?

#223 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 09:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

If the Ferguson cops had released an exact accounting of what Darren Wilson claims happened during the shooting incident, we'd know whether this new audio evidence supports or contradicts Wilson's account.
I find it amazing that they've been allowed to release so little, even as they had no trouble releasing the store video that allegedly shows Brown shoplifting. The department's ongoing cover up ought to be a criminally prosecutable civil rights violation in itself.

#1 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2014-08-26 11:13 AM | REPLY | FLAG

You dismissed the audio and video account of a witness of the entire episode with something to the effect of "an anonymous voice on a video is not credible." Yet you accept an audio recording of gunshots as credible. Even though the recording could have been made anywhere. Seems as though you accept evidence that supports your agenda.

#224 | Posted by RobThomas at 2014-08-27 09:38 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

I am refraining from commenting on this story further because I realized we don't have all the evidence. Much of it has been sealed for a possible upcoming trial. We really don't know crap.

#225 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-27 09:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

We really don't know crap.

#225 | POSTED BY KANREI

We do know that the single most important witness for Brown's side of the case, Dorian Johnson, has publicly benchmarked his testimony a number of times.

#226 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 10:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

We know that the alleged audio in this story doesn't align with Johnson's account. Johnson has a shot at the car, a shot in the back and then a burst.

#227 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 11:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

And we know that Brown had his hands full of Cigarellos.

#228 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 11:01 AM | Reply | Flag:

How does the cruiser door open not but an inch and hit both jaywalkers? Do you think the door could have hit Johnson as well as Brown? Maybe Johnson almost got the wind knocked out him since he was so close to Brown and the door?

#229 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 11:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe the door slightly tapped Johnson but more hit Brown, and since Brown is big the door bounced? Does that make sense?

#230 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 11:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

I bet Big Mike had a frowny face while he was wrestling with Wilson.

#231 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 11:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

#224 | Posted by RobThomas

Cell phone records and computer logs will establish the exact time and location of his call that picked up the gunshots.

#232 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2014-08-27 12:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

And we know that Brown had his hands full of Cigarellos.

#228 | Posted by DixvilleNotch

And we know that you still don't get it.

#233 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-27 01:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

Johnson claimed in interviews that Brown handed the cigars to Johnson during the initial struggle.

#234 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

#234 It's exactly the sort of detail that Johnson would tell the likes of Al Sharpton before the robbery video was released on the 15th. Sharpton would just make like the Cigarellos are of no significance.

#235 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 01:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Gotta commend Dixie.

He's still hard at work excusing the murder of an unarmed black kid by a scared police officer with ------ in his undies.

#236 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-08-27 02:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Alleged Audio Reveals Pause in Brown Shooting"

It's the Pause that Refreshes.

#237 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-27 02:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Tony --

What do you think Saint Sharpton would have said if Johnson told him Jesus Brown's hands were full of Cigarellos?

#238 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 02:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

And we know that Brown had his hands full of Cigarellos.
#228 | Posted by DixvilleNotch

And we know that you still don't get it.

#233 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY

What don't I get about Brown open-carrying the stolen Cigarellos, Donnerboy?

#239 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 02:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

#221 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to assume Brown was carrying the cigars in his pockets. Why would he be carrying stolen property in plain sight, especially after a police cruiser just approached and communicated with them? You're telling me that after the initial comment to Brown about moving out of the street, it just so happened that Brown was STILL carrying said cigars in his hands, in plain sight, and it was when the cruiser started pulling away that Wilson noticed the cigars in Brown's hands, giving Wilsion justification to apprehend? That's a far larger assumption to make compared to cigars in pockets, although far more plausible than Johnson being given the stolen evidence to then destroy as his friend lies dead in the street.. You want to only give Wilson the benefit of the doubt here. You can at least join me in giving Brown the benefit of the doubt that he was a smart enough thief to know to hide the stolen merchandise when cops are around, but no, that wouldn't fit your preconceived narrative. Too bad.

#240 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 02:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, I can't find the original interview but, Johnson said on MSNBC that when the struggle between Brown and the officer started that Brown handed him the cigars.

#242 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 02:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

#242 | POSTED BY DALTON

That would be good to have, but still doesn't explain the assumption that Brown was walking down the street "open carrying" stolen merchandise. Like I said, some here only want to give the benefit of the doubt to Wilson...well, try jumping on the Brownie train with me and give him the benefit of the doubt that he was smart enough of a thief not to walk down the street with stolen merchandise in plain view. That's a portion of this story that doesn't make any sense (if proven to be true). COULD have Johnson destroyed the evidence? Sure, but that doesn't add up considering his friend was in a physical altercation with a COP that ended in gun fire. Then to tack on to it, the notion that Johnson had already shown law abiding behavior not even minutes before in the liquor store helps undermine the probability that Johnson destroyed the evidence.

I mean come on, we have already established that the Brown was no "gentle giant," that Johnson is already a hardened criminal with a warrant out for his arrest, and NEITHER of them are very Jesus like, so what makes you think Brown is NOT that smart of a criminal? (Latter question aimed at you and DIX).

#243 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 02:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

What don't I get about Brown open-carrying the stolen Cigarellos, Donnerboy?

#239 | Posted by DixvilleNotch

That it does not justify in any way shooting and killing an unarmed teenager and then leaving his body lying in the street for 4 hours.

#244 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-27 02:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rusty --

What do you think Sharpton would have done if Johnson himself told him in the early days of this mess that Brown had his hands full of Cigarellos?

#245 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

#245 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

I think Sharpton would have used whatever he needed to use to present a narrative that supported his bottom line.

Why ANYBODY pays as much attention to that man as they do *AHEM* is truly beyond me. If the Browns want to wrap themselves in the wonderful words of Jesus as presented by Sharpton (that includes a large amount of race baiting), that is their prerogative.

Here is something we should be able to factually determine: did Brown's pants even have pockets at all? If not, that lends plenty of credence to your suggestion. If they do, it simply doesn't make any sense. Why walk down the middle of a street with stolen merchandise in plain sight when you can hide it in your pockets? Oh, because he was stupid? No, I don't buy it. Not when both he and Johnson were such well known, hardened criminals and completely un-Christlike.

But like KANREI has stated up thread, I'll wait to make any sort of firm conclusion until more evidence is presented. As of right now, plenty of it makes ZERO sense and it has everything to do with the media fire storm blending this story into a ------------.

#246 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

Anybody pay attention to Al Sharpton? Valerie Jarrett who is Obamas' right hand lady has had multiple conversations on how the white house should handle this case.

#247 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 03:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, I've said several times that I'm only commenting on the things we know and that if the shooting was unjustified the officer should be severly punished. There is just a lot of misinformation being spread on tv and a lot of assumptions based on emotion and not the investigation.

#248 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 03:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

#247 | POSTED BY DALTON

Obama's an idiot for doing so. No need to fish for Obama apologies from me. I'm HAPPY he's on the way out.

Rand Paul '16!

#249 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

did Brown's pants even have pockets at all? If not, that lends plenty of credence to your suggestion

#246 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Oh, it's not just my suggestion.

Don't you remember the clerk at the Ferguson Market running after Brown to give him a bag?

#250 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why walk down the middle of a street with stolen merchandise in plain sight when you can hide it in your pockets? Oh, because he was stupid? No, I don't buy it.

#246 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

You will.

#251 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

There is just a lot of misinformation being spread on tv and a lot of assumptions based on emotion and not the investigation.
#248 | POSTED BY DALTON

I agree. Including speculative assumptions about destruction of evidence. Accusations of lying and profiteering -- all for what?

There's a reason why they are holding back as much information as they are...as explained by the Salt Lake City, UT police chief concerning the death of a white man by the hands of a black cop, "Information is being withheld from the public because this is a process. There is due process at stake here and we will ensure it is fulfilled."

#252 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

You will.
#251 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

HA! Obviously DIX has no interest in discussing this issue. He's done nothing but pontificate speculation and, now, spew projection.

Just say it, DIX...Brown was too stupid to hide the cigars away, out of plain view. That's the only explanation available, so WHY ARE YOU NOT POUNCING ON IT?!

#253 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

What don't I get about Brown open-carrying the stolen Cigarellos, Donnerboy?
#239 | Posted by DixvilleNotch

That it does not justify in any way shooting and killing an unarmed teenager and then leaving his body lying in the street for 4 hours.

#244 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY

Those are two different concepts. Let's take the first one first. The open-carry on the Cigarellos provides a strong reason for the officer to connect Brown to the recent nearby robbery. As Dalton says, if Wilson's actions in that confrontation were improper that is too bad for Wilson. Prosecute him to the full extent of the law. In the meantime, the Cigarellos in Brown's hand speak to a cause for Wilson to confront the jaywalkers a second time, more forcefully.

#254 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just say it, DIX...Brown was too stupid to hide the cigars away, out of plain view. That's the only explanation available, so WHY ARE YOU NOT POUNCING ON IT?!

#253 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Naw, naw, naw. There's another explanation.

#255 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Don't you remember the clerk at the Ferguson Market running after Brown to give him a bag? -- DIX

What does that have to do with Brown walking down the street holding the cigars in his hands, in plain view? If his pants did not have any pockets THEN YOUR SUGGESTION WOULD BE VIABLE. If his pants did not have pockets, then your suggestion is not NEARLY as viable.

GET IT?!

#256 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

At least, there's another explanation for how I know that Brown's hands were full of Cigarellos. It's your conclusion that Brown would be stupid if this were true.

#257 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

WHY ARE YOU NOT POUNCING ON IT?!

#253 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Why are you bumrushing me?

#258 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

There's another explanation.
#255 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

There better be, considering how hardened of a criminal Brown was to begin with. There's NO WAY his criminal acuity would allow him to do that, right? In the least, the mastermind criminal in Johnson would have at least pointed out to his dear, un-Christlike friend that it would be a good idea to hide those away, especially after being confronted by a cop.

But no, far more likely that Brown was walking down the middle of the street with merchandise he had just brazenly and violently stolen being held out in plain view for all to see, including the cop that confronted him. Nope, even then Brown wasn't smart enough to put the cigars away, out of sight, to avoid the potential of the cop taking notice of the stolen property on Brown's person.

#259 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Not only do I maintain that Brown had his hands full of Cigarellos, I maintain that Sharpton knew this within 72 hours of Brown's death. I also maintain that Johnson is the last person on the current public record to be in possession of those Cigarellos, and that Sharpton knew that as well.

#260 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why are you bumrushing me?
#258 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

You're not a victim. Put on your big boy pants and answer the question.

#261 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Quotes that never happened:

"Is that a cigar in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?"

-- Officer Wilson

#262 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

#260 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

So, you're saying, Sharpton is at the center of this case, right? You've spent enough time placing him at the center, so let's really get down to it. Are you sure it wasn't Sharpton in the surveillance video?

#263 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, Rusty. I'm saying Sharpton is symptomatic of the media neglecting or downright covering up from the beginning the fact that many, many people in Ferguson knew that the police alleged, at the shooting scene, that Brown had participated in a recent robbery.

#264 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

#262 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

With -------- comments like that, you deserve a good bummrushing.

#265 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

In the meantime, the Cigarellos in Brown's hand speak to a cause for Wilson to confront the jaywalkers a second time, more forcefully.

#254 | Posted by DixvilleNotch

Like I said... you just don't get it.

My son was always a big boy. A weight lifter. One day (as a teenager) he and a friend stole a carton of cigarettes from a local market. There is no way the cops in our town would have ever considered that just cause to gun him down in the streets and leave in lying in a pool of blood for the whole town/world to see.

You will never be able to justify this shooting of an unarmed teenager with the "Great Cigar Robbery".

#266 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-27 03:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm saying Sharpton is symptomatic of the media neglecting or downright covering up from the beginning the fact that many, many people in Ferguson knew that the police alleged, at the shooting scene, that Brown had participated in a recent robbery.
#264 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

More evidence backing up DONNERBOY's suggestion that you just don't get it.

#267 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Did your son attack the arresting officer and go for his weapon, Donnerboy?

#268 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

It wasn't the robbery that prompted the shooting. According to eye witness accounts there was a struggle at the car and that was the source of the shooting. Now it's reasonable to question if a scuffle if that's what it was is reason enough to shoot someone but, don't mix up the facts about the reason there was a shooting. It's just dishonest.

#269 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 03:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

We'll see what evidence we get to support the officer's claims. If he screwed up, that's on him.

Meanwhile, Johnson's story has been shot full of holes.

#270 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Did your son attack the arresting officer and go for his weapon, Donnerboy?

#268 | Posted by DixvilleNotch

The cops in my town would have never set the stage for that to happen.

The cops negligence allowed for this to happen. If this boy was so dangerous he had to shoot first and ask questions later where was his backup? Why didn't he wait for his backup?

So the answer is no. Because, you see, we live in a different world.

My son is white.

#271 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-27 03:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's your conclusion that Brown would be stupid if this were true.
#257 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

My suggestion is used nothing more than to identify your insinuation. You still refuse to answer the question: why would a thief walk down the middle of the street with stolen merchandise in plain sight? IMO, he wouldn't. Therefore, it more than likely is a convenient note to make when presenting justification for the actions that took place post-robbery. Of course Wilson realized Brown could have been a suspect in the recent robbery, because it JUST SO HAPPENED that Brown was holding the evidence in plain sight for the cop to see after he was already driving away from Brown and Johnson.

This also ties to RCADE's questioning regarding the police chief's contradictory statements regarding Wilson's knowledge of Brown's criminal behavior and the initial stop in the middle of the street.

#272 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

#269 Exactly, Dalton.

#273 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've been thinking about the cigars being in his hands or pocket and I wouldn't think you would put them in your pocket simply b/c they may break while you are walking making them useless.

#274 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 03:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

If the media had accurately reported from Day One that the deceased Brown was a suspect in a robbery and that his companion fled the scene with stolen property this whole thing would have been perceived differently.

#275 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've been thinking about the cigars being in his hands or pocket and I wouldn't think you would put them in your pocket simply b/c they may break while you are walking making them useless.

#274 | POSTED BY DALTON

He took a damn lot of 'em.

#276 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

Are you ready to hear it again, Rusty? Dalton has already given you the kernel. I'll pop your corn. I'll post it after 1:00PST. Nature is calling.

#277 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 03:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Meanwhile, Johnson's story has been shot full of holes.
#270 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

Not uncommon considering the witness in question's friend was shot dead. This is a traumatic event for a teenager to experience (whether he witnessed it or not). Why you are unwilling to take this into consideration exposes your brazen attitude towards everyone EXCEPT for the Cop. It is this attitude that feeds into the interpretation by me, and others here, that you have needlessly taken sides in this case based not on evidence (as it is not nearly as clear as you make it out to be), but on speculation of what certain evidence points to compared to eye witness accounts. And to boot, you throw out ridiculously unfunny jokes about the matter.

Yeah, great fnckin' discussion, DIX.

#278 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 03:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, the claim by the chief is that they were stopped initially for walking down the street. Wilson told them to get on the sidewalk and when he started to leave realized they were still in the street so he backed up to them. As Wilson was trying to open his door it hit Brown and closed back on Wilson. This is where the scuffle started. As the situation unfolded Wilson thougt they may be the ones involved with the robbery and things escalated.

#279 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 03:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rusty, trust me. I'll rip into evidence that supports Wilson, too. Backing up the car into a position where he could get jammed in it doesn't seem real bright. When his account comes out in October or whenever we'll have to have another beer summit.

#280 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've been thinking about the cigars being in his hands or pocket and I wouldn't think you would put them in your pocket simply b/c they may break while you are walking making them useless.
#274 | POSTED BY DALTON

So you're in the same boat as DIX then? You think he was too stupid to rationally consider whether it would be more beneficial to risk breaking cigars and having to smoke broken cigars to avoid being caught up by a cop that just yelled at you to get out of the road? Remember, according to DIX, Wilson had already passed Brown and Johnson and was driving away when he then recognized the cigars in Brown's hand that led him to believe that Brown could potentially be a suspect in the recent robbery he had just heard over the radio. If you are going to support this line of reasoning, you too must consider that Brown was simply just too stupid to not make the rationally correct decision in that circumstance.

It is more likely, IMO, that a criminal (especially one that had just committed a crime) would be more cognizant and paranoid of the potential of being caught considering it had just happened. I'm not saying Brown wasn't too stupid to not consider such a rational though process, but I am saying that is not as likely as the alternative.

#281 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Are police officers allowed to pull a gun on an unarmed suspect?

Are police officers excused for being inept?

#282 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-08-27 04:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

When his account comes out in October or whenever we'll have to have another beer summit.
#280 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

Fair enough. Although, I'm getting a little perturbed by all this talk about beer and nothing coming of it.

Get your lazy ass down to San Diego and let's go hit up the Stone Brewery for a couple IPAs. Only then will I truly take your points about Johnson's lack of credibility into consideration (jest...meant in jest).

#283 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Are police officers allowed to pull a gun on an unarmed suspect?

Yes. Police officers are given a large amount of discretion. Part of that discretion is determining when their lives are in danger, and therefore, when to pull a firearm.

#284 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

If this boy was so dangerous he had to shoot first and ask questions later where was his backup? Why didn't he wait for his backup?

#271 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY

Indeed, Donnerboy, shoplifting doesn't often escalate to anything like this. Strong-arm robbery (aka felony 2nd degree robbery) is probably more likely to escalate.

Er, I'm not sure how to tell you this, so I'll be blunt. Wilson says, through the Chief, that he got assualted by Brown and that during the assault Brown tried to disarm him. That's a whole new, very special felony. You have been exposed to some media lately?

#285 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

This is where the scuffle started. As the situation unfolded Wilson thougt they may be the ones involved with the robbery and things escalated.
#279 | POSTED BY DALTON

That's not how I read it went down. It wasn't as the situation unfolded that Wilson determined the potential of the two being involved in the robbery. It was when Wilson supposedly noticed the cigars in Brown's hand. That's why the discussion regarding whether Brown had the cigars in his hands, in plain sight, is important to determine. If he had cigars in his pockets, there's no way for Wilson to determine they might have been part of the robbery. However, if it is determined that Brown did have the cigars in his hands, irrationally in plain sight, and Wilson saw the cigars in his hands, than DIX's narrative as presented here on the thread is valid.

#286 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:09 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Get your lazy ass down to San Diego and let's go hit up the Stone Brewery for a couple IPAs. Only then will I truly take your points about Johnson's lack of credibility into consideration (jest...meant in jest).

#283 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Good God! We can't even agree that you're lazy for insisting that I go your direction to drink. I suppose I gotta fly and buy?

Besides, I prefer Apple Jack's in La Honda:

www.google.com

#287 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, I'm not claiming to know one way or the other if the cigars were in his hands or pockets. Just thinking logically that if I stole some cigars and was walking I wouldn't put them in my pocket b/c they may break. That and I doubt Brown thought he would run into the police b/c the first thing the cops would do is go to the store to investigate the robbery.

#288 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's not how I read it went down.

#286 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

I've been trying to tell you that Johnson and other witnesses have been going around giving interviews, changing their accounts against their benchmarks. That's exactly what I'm here to help you overcome.

#289 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:13 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Classy cop [/snark off]:

Soon, police vehicles reappeared, including from the St. Louis County Police Department, which had taken control of the investigation. Several officers emerged with dogs. What happened next, according to several sources, was emblematic of what has inflamed the city of Ferguson, Missouri, ever since the unarmed 18-year-old was gunned down: An officer on the street let the dog he was controlling urinate on the memorial site.

The incident was related to me separately by three state and local officials who worked with the community in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. One confirmed that he interviewed an eyewitness, a young woman, and pressed her on what exactly she saw. "She said that the officer just let the dog pee on it," that official told me. "She was very distraught about it." The identity of the officer who handled the dog and the agency he was with remain unclear.

www.huffingtonpost.com

#290 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2014-08-27 04:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

#287 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

HAHA! That's right! And you know why? Because wherever you are, there's no way it's better than San Diego, especially here: www.google.com

It'll be worth your while and if you fly, I buy.

#291 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've been trying to tell you that Johnson and other witnesses have been going around giving interviews, changing their accounts against their benchmarks. -- DIX

Does that include Wilson? Or the Chief? Who else would suggest Wilson saw Brown holding the cigars in his hands, thereby providing justification to attempt to apprehend?

#292 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

When Johnson told Sharpton back on April 12th that Big Mike's hands were full of Cigarellos, Johnson wasn't whispering it off the record. He was on national television, either before or after an interview with Wolf Blitzer. I guess this goes to show not many folks are watching Sharpton's show.

Without further ado, I present to you Dorian Johnson telling Al Sharpton that Mike Brown's hands were full of Cigarellos at the start of The Tussle:

youtu.be

#293 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, there is more than one reason to suspect them of being involved in the robbery. I'm sure there was a description sent out over the radio such as two males one roughly 6'5 300lbs and a male 5'8 150lbs committed a strong armed robbery at the Sac O' Suds.

#294 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:20 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Here's the point where Dorian Johnson tells Al Sharpton on national television back on August 12th that Big Mike handed him Cigarellos during The Tussle:

youtu.be

#295 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just thinking logically that if I stole some cigars and was walking I wouldn't put them in my pocket b/c they may break. -- DALTON

IMO, that would not be the rational decision to make. Considering you just robbed a store not even 10 minutes (?) prior, getting caught and punished for your criminal act would be at the forefront of your attention. With that said, risking breaking a cigar (or even all of them) would have been worthwhile to avoid needless attention. Granted, it wasn't a smart move to walk down the middle of the street (but I really question whether that is as big of a deal as it is being made out to be -- even though Wilson was right to tell them to get out of the road), but it's truly a foolish if not detrimentally stupid to hold your stolen merchandise out in plain sight, especially when a cop just approached you about walking down the middle of the street.

Who knows? Maybe that just makes me a more rational criminal than you. Not exactly something I will be bragging about to say the least.

#296 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Thanks Notch. I've been trying to find the transcript but, everything I find just has snippets.

#297 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

To close the loop that Al Sharpton left open, here's where Dorian Johnson told Sharpton that Wilson had pulled away after admonishing them to get out of the road:

youtu.be

#298 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well it's not rational to rob a convenient store. It's not rational to rob a convenient store and walk down the middle of the street. So why would we think they would do anything rational?

#299 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, I had no idea you were in San Diego? You aren't a lesbian are you? I've got a lesbian first cousin that lives there.

#300 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm sure there was a description sent out over the radio such as two males one roughly 6'5 300lbs and a male 5'8 150lbs committed a strong armed robbery at the Sac O' Suds.
#294 | POSTED BY DALTON

I see your point, although, are we to believe that Wilson didn't recognize the two individuals walking down the road fit the description of 6'5 300lbs and a male 5'8 150lbs until after he told them to get out of the road? If so, that brings Wilson's investigatory ability into question.

#301 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's truly a foolish if not detrimentally stupid to hold your stolen merchandise out in plain sight, especially when a cop just approached you about walking down the middle of the street.

Who knows? Maybe that just makes me a more rational criminal than you. Not exactly something I will be bragging about to say the least.

#296 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

No need to be ashamed. You may very well be right that Mike Brown, despite his alternative degree from a school district that got disacredited, may very well have been, as you say, a stupid criminal.

#302 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

You aren't a lesbian are you? I've got a lesbian first cousin that lives there.

#300 | POSTED BY DALTON

OK, I'll fly.

#303 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

You aren't a lesbian are you? I've got a lesbian first cousin that lives there.
#300 | POSTED BY DALTON

If by lesbian you mean someone who is only attracted to woman, then yes, I very much am I proud lesbian. If by lesbian you mean a woman that doesn't shave her armpits and sports a blonde mustache, then no. I shave my pits and my mustache is red.

And I'm glad you made mention that she is your first cousin. Makes it clear that you will not act on any potential attraction between the two of you. At least, I hope :-)

#304 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not saying Wilson is Sherlock Holmes.

#305 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

You aren't a lesbian are you? I've got a lesbian first cousin that lives there.
#300 | POSTED BY DALTON
OK, I'll fly.

#303 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

HAHA! Who gets visited first? Stone Brewery or DALTON's cousin?

Just what exactly makes up DIX's priorities?

#306 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Notch, you would be highly dissapointed.

#307 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:32 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I suspect Wilson backed up after leaving because he heard one of the two say something. Witness reports are that Wilson stopped, told them to 'get the f**k on the sidewalk!!' (politeness is not one of Wilson's virtues), Wilson pulled away then backed up with tires squealing.

Maybe none of this would have happened if Wilson had simply been nice to begin with, or drove past and let Brown get home. Instead, he made a federal case out of it (now, literally), backed up and pulled Brown's head then arm into the car and shot him.

#308 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2014-08-27 04:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

. Makes it clear that you will not act on any potential attraction between the two of you. At least, I hope :-)

#304 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

I am from Georgia but, she's the lesbian with the mustache and flat top.

#309 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just what exactly makes up DIX's priorities?

#306 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

She's so ugly he should go to the brewery. Mayb the liquor store.

#310 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:35 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Wilson's investigatory ability into question.

#301 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

I think we all know by now that the Chief says Wilson knew of the robbery and began to consider Brown a suspect before The Tussle. What Wilson knew and when he knew it is fair game.

#311 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

(politeness is not one of Wilson's virtues)

We weren't aware that you know Wilson?

#312 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe none of this would have happened had Brown just followed the law and not robbed a liquor store?

#313 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe Wilson said "Get the Eff out of the street" in a joking way. he was, after all, going to drive off even though Johnson told him that they would stop jaywalking in another minute or so.

#314 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Instead, he made a federal case out of it (now, literally), backed up and pulled Brown's head then arm into the car and shot him.

#308 | POSTED BY AMERICANUNITY

That's a shocking claim, Dorian, er, AU. You left out the part where the door ricocheted back on the officer, trapping him in his cruiser. here's the part where Johnson explains that the door didn't open but an inch, but hit both him and Brown, nearly knocking the wind out of Johnson:

youtu.be

Makes a lot of sense, right? Not! Check out the look on Sharpton's face!

#315 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

So why would we think they would do anything rational?
#299 | POSTED BY DALTON

Like I said, walking down the middle of street is not irrational. Walking down the middle of a busy street is irrational. From the sound of it, the street Brown was shot on did have cars on it, but was hardly a thoroughfare. Robbing the store may very well have been a rational action in the mind of Brown:

rational choice theory: It is assumed, that crime is purposive behavior designed to meet the offender's commonplace needs for such things as money, status, sex and excitement, and that meeting these needs involves the making of (sometimes quite rudimentary) decisions and choices, constrained as these are by limits, ability, and the availability of relevant information.[2]

I fully believe Brown weighed the benefits vs. the consequences in robbing the store. It was a rational decision on his part, though obviously not a smart one. I am sure walking down the middle of a non-busy street in Ferguson is just as common as it is in San Diego. So not much rational bearing upon that decision. It is, however, the rational thought process of a criminal to determine how to get away with the crime. Deciding whether to commit the crime is one thing. Deciding how to get away with the crime is another. Intimidating the store owner was definitely part of Brown's rational to that extent. The question, now, is whether hiding the evidence of the crime was also part of that rational. For most petty thieves, it is, which is why they are so apt at getting away with the crime. Considering Brown was in company with such a hardened criminal, in that of Johnson, one would think that the combination of Johnson's criminal acuity and Brown's interest in getting away with the crime would influence Brown to hide the evidence and risk the potential possibility that one or more of the cigars would break his pocket. And that one person, evidently, is me.

#316 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dixie must be getting paid overtime for all his fabrication of events in order to excuse that inept police officer.

tell us again Dixie, about scared and defenseless Darren Wilson.

I mean. He was face to face with a black!!

I know that Officer Darren Wilson's wife found a black mark in Darren Wilson's underwear.

Must have been the reason Wilson shot Brown.

#317 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-08-27 04:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

You have been exposed to some media lately?

#285 | Posted by DixvilleNotch

Yes and me and Bill O'Rielly are both really outraged at the media coverage.

Not about the shooting, mind you, but about the mainstream media's coverage of it.

#318 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-27 04:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

tell us again Dixie, about scared and defenseless Darren Wilson.

I mean. He was face to face with a black!!

With.. with... dun dun dunnnnn!

Cigarillos!

#319 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-27 04:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe Wilson said "Get the Eff out of the street" in a joking way.

If he did, he's a fnckin' idiot. Police Officers should not joke around in such a manner. If Wilson had known the kids, that's one thing. It's clear that he did not. A stranger acting as an officer has no ground to make off the cuff remarks in such a joking manner when on patrol. More so, I would be extremely hard pressed to believe any cop yelling out of his cop car window at me was doing so in any joking fashion.

They are the authority. They shouldn't be joking around. Completely undermines their legitimacy in the eyes of those who they confront on a daily basis.

For a better explanation as to what I mean, please read the following: Police Legitimacy in Action: Lessons for Theory and Practice from www.academia.edu

#320 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Regarding the traffic while Johnson and Brown were walking down the middle of the street, in the interview with Sharpton Johnson departs from his benchmark that implies there was no traffic. With Sharpton, Johnson includes the detail that cars were going by and around them before Wilson pulled up:

youtu.be

#321 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, I'm saying it's not rational to rob a store and then draw attention to yourself by walking down the middle of the street.

#322 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

They are the authority. They shouldn't be joking around. Completely undermines their legitimacy in the eyes of those who they confront on a daily basis.
For a better explanation as to what I mean, please read the following: Police Legitimacy in Action: Lessons for Theory and Practice from www.academia.edu

#320 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

I hear ya, but then its a small town. Maybe Wilson wasn't super friendly, but Wilson seems to have been content to warn them and move on.

#323 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Notch, you would be highly dissapointed.

#307 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-27 04:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Haha. My mother's 1st cousin is a lesbian. We used to visit her and her girlfriend once in a while when I was a kid. My mother explained their situation to me when I was about eight years old. It wasn't a big deal. She was masculine but I remember her one longtime girlfriend being attractive. I liked going over there. We'd go out on their boat. Years later she beat the hell out of the pretty girlfriend and ran off with another cousin's wife. Was real spiteful about it too. She was pretty much disowned after that. I think my cousin being such a horrible person is the reason why I never bought into the "lesbianism is so hot" hype later on....

#324 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-27 04:54 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

You dismissed the audio and video account of a witness of the entire episode with something to the effect of "an anonymous voice on a video is not credible." Yet you accept an audio recording of gunshots as credible.

I never said a word about this new audio being credible. It hasn't even been verified by CNN, the organization that obtained it.

#325 | Posted by rcade at 2014-08-27 04:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dixie must be getting paid overtime for all his fabrication of events

Yep. From Dorian Johnson's mouth to Al Sharpton's ear.

#326 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 04:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, I'm saying it's not rational to rob a store and then draw attention to yourself by walking down the middle of the street.
#322 | POSTED BY DALTON

Maybe not. But that does not eliminate the possible rationality Brown was considering at the time. Maybe he thought he already got away with the crime, so walking down the street with cigars in his hand was not big deal at that point. But when Wilson approaches them the first time, tells them to get out of the road, you would think, at that point, ANYONE would consider it a rational move to hide the evidence from the cop. According to Wilson and the Chief's statement, Brown did nothing of the sort. Wilson saw the cigars in his hands after beginning to drive away. And it was this lack of interest in hiding the evidence that influenced Brown to keep the cigars in plain sight, giving Wilson reason to believe that Brown could be the suspect in the robbery.

#327 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 04:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

I think we all know by now that the Chief says Wilson knew of the robbery and began to consider Brown a suspect before The Tussle. What Wilson knew and when he knew it is fair game.
#311 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

I am not arguing this point. As I have interpreted the story, Wilson drove up and confronted two teens walking down the middle of the street. He told them to move to the sidewalk and began to drive off. When he noticed that they had not moved, he stopped and sometime around this time (according to Wilson and Chief) then noticed the cigars in Browns hand, which gave him reason to believe the two were part of the robbery.

#328 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 05:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

You caught the part where I forced my puppet Dorian Johnson to receive stolen property from Brown, right? Here's the part where I made Johnson contradict the Brown family's examiner by saying Wilson shot Brown from close range, while holding onto his shirt:

youtu.be

Here's the part where I make my Dorian puppet struggle to place himself still at the scene. I made him claim that he came out of hiding despite fearing for his life, and was standing in plain sight, but the officer couldn't see him.

youtu.be

To cast further doubt that Johnson had fled the scene and didn't see what happened, I had puppet Dorian claim the officer's second shot hit Brown in the back:

youtu.be

#329 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 05:16 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

My bad on the comma fault and time code on that last one.

To cast further doubt -- that Johnson had fled the scene and didn't see what happened -- I had puppet Dorian claim the officer's second shot hit Brown in the back:

youtu.be

#330 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 05:20 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

scared and defenseless Darren Wilson.
I mean. He was face to face with a black!!
I know that Officer Darren Wilson's wife found a black mark in Darren Wilson's underwear.
Must have been the reason Wilson shot Brown.

#317 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Did I forget to mention? It was a frowny black face.

youtu.be

#331 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 05:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

You caught the part where I forced my puppet Dorian Johnson to...

Here's the part where I make my Dorian puppet struggle to...

I had puppet Dorian claim...

Now this is starting to make some sense. You have associated your own pride with this story. You don't know anything more than anyone else, yet you feel compelled to present yourself as an integral part of this story. I predict you will pass this off as a joke, but in reality, this is your true concern. It has nothing to do with learning or figuring out what happened and everything to do with vindicating yourself.

You're like a half-assed, lawyer impersonator version of George Zimmerman.

#332 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 05:28 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Meh, not so much, although it has been fun schooling you and learning about your lesbian cousin. You miss stuff when you read.

Dixie must be getting paid overtime for all his fabrication of events

#317 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Just pointing out to Clownshack, that it was Dorian Johnson fabricating events.

#334 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 05:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

You're like a half-assed, lawyer impersonator version of George Zimmerman.

#332 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Does that make you quarter-assed? An octho-assed impersonator?

#336 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just pointing out to Clownshack, that it was Dorian Johnson fabricating events.
#334 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

You hope that's what is determined. Which is weird. Why would you hope Johnson is intently fabricating events? You don't know that for a fact because you have no clue regarding any of Johnson's intent.

You know why? Because you're not Johnson. You were not interviewed under penalty of perjury. So you have no idea what you are talking about any more than anyone else, yet for some reason insist on making yourself out as someone who does. Why?

#337 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

*blorp*

#338 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Does that make you quarter-assed? An octho-assed impersonator?
#336 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

I'm not the one spewing wild, baseless accusations like Zimmerman was regarding Martin. You, however, are doing exactly that.

So, no, that does not make me anything more than a critic of you and your baseless speculation.

#339 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 05:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dude, we're buds! Chillax. Point to where I hurt you. Then point out some baseless allegations.

#341 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 05:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Then point out some baseless allegations.
#341 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

Destruction of evidence by Johnson. Fabrication of witness statements by multiple individuals. Insinuating that Johnson was an accessory to the robbery (you did recognize there are not going to be any charges brought upon Johnson, didn't you?).

#342 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 05:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

My good friend, none of those is baseless.

I simply asked what Johnson did with the cigars. We know he received the stolen property from Brown during The Tussle by Johnson's own admission and we know that Johnson fled the scene.

I pointed out that through witnesses shifting off their benchmarks we are able to learn much about what happened while gaining insight into their accuracy. The recording of two groupings of shots that is the subject of this thread served as the base for a number of comparisons to witness statements.

Is Johnson out of the woods? Talk about a baseless allegation! Johnson's troubles will only be at the beginning if he gives, or has given, sworn testimony that can be proven that he knows is false. You don't know the terms of the Federal protection he is now receiving, do you?

You did know Johnson is receiving Federal protection?

#343 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 06:09 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Why would you hope Johnson is intently fabricating events?

#337 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Not hoping, just noticing.

Are you hoping that Wilson executed Brown for jaywalking? Now that would be curious.

#344 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 06:26 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

You're like a half-assed, lawyer impersonator version of George Zimmerman.

#332 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Says the guy who posted:

rational choice theory: It is assumed, that crime is purposive behavior designed to meet the offender's commonplace needs for such things as money, status, sex and excitement, and that meeting these needs involves the making of (sometimes quite rudimentary) decisions and choices, constrained as these are by limits, ability, and the availability of relevant information.[2]

and this:

Police Legitimacy in Action: Lessons for Theory and Practice from www.academia.edu

#320 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

academia.com

ROTFLMAO

#345 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-27 06:36 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

#345 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

My use of Crim theory to clarify my thought process does not touch the level of absurdity you have reached in impersonating legal counsel or investigator.

#346 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 07:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

re you hoping that Wilson executed Brown for jaywalking? Now that would be curious.
#344 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

Nope and I seriously doubt that you sincerely interpreted as much from my posts. Same cannot be said of you, however.

#347 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-27 07:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Our system works like this:

Steal a cigar, get shot to death, if you're a young black male.

Peddle individual cigarettes, get choked to death, if you're a fat black male.

Reach for your ID, get shot to death, if you're a young black male.

If you're black in Florida and found to posses your wife's oxycontin prescription bottle you will be charged with distribution and locked up for thirty years.

If you're Rush Limbaugh on probation and caught with an unprescribed illegal bottle of oxycontin, nothing will happen, because you're important.

Steal a $100 billion and you become a new category of "accident" and "too big to fail".

If you destroy the lives of millions innocent people by poisoning them with chemicals or radiation, nothing will be done, since it was just an accident.

If you displace 4.5 million people, murder a million people, initiate international rendition and torture, trigger oil inflation and an international financial crisis, you can pick up painting, a fat monthly retirement and lifetime secret service protection.

If you restart the cold war and threaten to heat it up you will be provided the same consideration.

If you play with a cigar, Rethugs will attempt to impeach you.

All because we have our priorities straight.

#348 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-28 08:38 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

My use of Crim theory to clarify my thought process does not touch the level of absurdity you have reached in impersonating legal counsel or investigator.

#346 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Crim theory?

Isn't that just Scrot Theory in a different pouch, er, package? Smells the same.

LOL

#349 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 09:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

All cops should be required to wear cameras that record all instances of interaction with the public.

#350 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2014-08-28 10:11 AM | Reply | Flag:

: )

#351 | Posted by CalifChris at 2014-08-28 10:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

"You take a second, aim and hit him in the leg." "The officer in question belongs in a Rambo film"

I think you've been watching too many hollywood movies if you think that's how it would work.

#5 | POSTED BY KWRX25 AT 2014-08-26 11:32 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Try paying attention to how a professional does it instead of your concept of Hollywood.

www.facebook.com

#352 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2014-08-28 10:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

These shooting cases are always suspicious b/c the media comes out and says things like the police murdered a black boy or the choked out a black man that was standing on the sidewalk. Turns out after the initial reports come out that these idividuals were or had broke the law drawing police attention. The guy that died on the sidewalk wanted to negotiate and refused to cooperate so he was taken down. Had he simply put his hands behind his back he would still be alive. Had Mike Brown simply walked down the sidewalk he would still be alive even after robbing a convenient store. Most people have learned that when the police tell you to do something you do it and don't argue with them. You may not like this fact but, that is the fact of things.

#353 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 10:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

#353 | POSTED BY DALTON AT 2014-08-28 10:48 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

So you have no problem with police using deadly force if you don't stand on the sidewalk like they tell you? Where were you when the Nazis needed you?Had the cop simply stopped choking him, he would be alive. If the cop had chosen to not shoot Brown he would still be alive. What would have been the consequences if the guy hadn't been choked to death and Brown had not been shot? ANSWER: Two people would still be alive.

#354 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2014-08-28 10:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

#354 That is wrong. That is not what he said. Do not put words in the mouths of others, it is not allowed on this site.

He simply attested to the fact that a change in the course of action by Brown would have mitigated the circumstances that lead to his death.

He did not condone the killing of an individual for what you claim he did.

#355 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 11:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

Crim theory?
Isn't that just Scrot Theory in a different pouch, er, package? Smells the same.
LOL

#349 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

You really need me to spell it out?

C-R-I-M-I-N-O-L-O-G-I-C-A-L ... T-H-E-O-R-Y

It's a science. What do you have against science?

#356 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 11:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

Turns out after the initial reports come out that these idividuals were or had broke the law drawing police attention. The guy that died on the sidewalk wanted to negotiate and refused to cooperate so he was taken down. Had he simply put his hands behind his back he would still be alive.
#353 | POSTED BY DALTON

Sorry, DALTON, but that's --------. They started grabbing the guy and put him in a choke hold almost immediately. The man should have cooperated, but that does not mitigate the issue of illegal use of force on the part of the cops. Many of these incidents are escalating to lethal levels and it's not entirely the fault of the "suspects."

#358 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 11:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

#357 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

Either read up on what I provided and take it into consideration or walk away.

Not my problem you have trouble understanding it's applicability and relevance.

#359 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 11:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

#359 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Lighten up, Francis.

I thought his response was pretty funny.

#360 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-08-28 11:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

Dude, I get that when cops joke around with civilians it erodes their authority. I hope you didn't pay for that insight.

What do you think of my theory that Mike Brown's hands were full of Cigarellos when officer Wilson encountered him in the street? I learned it on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

#361 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 11:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Mike's hands are filled with Cigarellos, cuz we have Cigarellos in our hands. So his hands are filled. His hands are not free. His hands are filled."

#362 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 11:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

Baloney Rsty. Garner didn't want to cooperate when he was being questioned about his illegal activity. I've seen the video and he's got his hands up and shifting around when he was told what to do. Now you can blame it on a stupid law of selling cigarettes illegally but that isn't on the cops. That is on the legislators. People across the country for the most part give cops the authority to enforce the law. If they tell you to get on the side walk it doesn't matter that you are about to be at your destination as Johnson said to Wilson. If your selling illegal cigarettes and the cops want to search you don't get to tell them know. Again if you aren't breaking the law the police don't pay that much attention to you.

#363 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 11:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

With that said. I can't believe that stop and frisk is constitutional.

#364 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 11:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

He did not condone the killing of an individual for what you claim he did.

#355 | POSTED BY HEURISTICGRATIS AT 2014-08-28 11:03 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Interesting--how about showing where I claimed he said ANYTHING. Then see if you are man enough to apologize or--take reading lessons.

#365 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2014-08-28 11:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm curious... Do you guys think Wilson got up that morning or clocked in on his shift and thought... "I'm gonna shoot me a black boy today"?

#366 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 11:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

#363

Did the cop put the man in an illegal. Joke hold or not? Was it the cops first move on the man or not?

Yes to both questions yet you address neither. Why?

#367 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 12:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Joke hold = choke hold

Again, the fact the man was committing a crime and resisting arrest does not warrant illegal meneuvers to apprehend.

#368 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 12:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

#364

Agreed.

#369 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 12:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Motive, means and opportunity," Dalton. Wilson has the means and opportunity every day. No one has provided a motive for Wilson to grab and shoot Brown randomly other than this from Dorian Johnson:

youtu.be

"The door ricocheted off of us. It bounced back to him. And I guess that, you know, got him a little upset."

#370 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 12:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

#360 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Its the one thing I feel I have the ability to enlighten, the few of those here willing to listen, with and it was a good point, IMO. Forgive me for being frustrated that he refuses to acknowledge/discuss and instead ridicule. If I wanted to read unfunny humor, I'd go to the Onion. I come here to discuss and (hopefully) learn.

#371 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 12:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Take a deep breath, Rusty. We all come here to discuss and (hopefully) learn. We're willing to suffer through unfunny humor and ridicule while we're at it, even though sometimes all we get is unfunny humor and ridicule. I for one found this thread to be wonderfully enlightening.

*cheers*

and

*blorp* (That's me putting my Rello out in your drink.)

#372 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 12:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, if the choke hold is illegal than prosecute the offending officer. He broke the law. That's not my point. The point is if Garner had not been breaking the law the police wouldn't have questioned him more than likely. If he had followed orders instead of putting his hands up and shifting around there would have been no choke hold and he would still be alive.

#373 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 12:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

BBob, you asked him where he was when the Nazis needed him. That certainly sounds like you were implying that he condoned this.

#374 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-08-28 12:49 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#374 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2014-08-28 12:49 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

What part says I claimed he said anything to you? Can you highlight what I claim he said? If not--gee--hit the road.

#375 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2014-08-28 12:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

#365

So you have no problem with police using deadly force if you don't stand on the sidewalk like they tell you? Where were you when the Nazis needed you?

Baseless insinuations. You tried to connect him to Nazi's and their behavior. Repugnant.

#376 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 12:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's no big deal. BB is just being dishonest b/c I've never said that Brown was shot for jaywalking. Jaywalking caused him to be approached by the officer.

#377 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 01:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, do you still question whether or not Brown was carrying the cigars in his hand?

#378 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 01:14 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I didn't say you claimed he said something. I said your Nazi "question" implied that you thought he condoned this.

#379 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-08-28 01:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

Who'd a thunk that the stolen Cigarellos would show up so prominently as a reason why Brown could not have possibly laid hands on Wilson just yet?

If you told me that information was in an interview with Al Sharpton before Sharpton even really got involved I would never have believed you.

#380 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 01:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

He smoked all of the cigarellos before his confrontation with the cops.

#381 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-08-28 01:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Notch, Al looked like he was taking a hard dump in that video you posted.

#382 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 01:52 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Somehow Al came away from it with a cash cow, though.

Gonna blow up in his face if Johnson recants.

#383 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 02:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's just how Sharpton operates. He comes in and exploits people and the tragedy that they have suffered then skips town never caring to go back and pick up the pieces. He's truly a bad person that has never worked a honest day of his life.

I do wish Rsty would come back and answer the question if he still believes that the cigars weren't in Browns hand after you posted the video of Johnson's comments.

#384 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 02:10 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

It's weird. I don't see this thread anywhere on the front or back page and it has more post than any other one by far. Why would it be removed while we have the soprano thread still up with one post?

#385 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 02:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yeah, I notice that, too. First post is RCade about 48 hours ago. I thought threads stayed up for three days.

#386 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 02:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

The point is if Garner had not been breaking the law the police wouldn't have questioned him more than likely.

With Stop and Frisk, that "more than likely" does not exactly fit, considering the dude was black.

If he had followed orders instead of putting his hands up and shifting around there would have been no choke hold and he would still be alive.

I'm not discounting that, but let's keep in mind that had the officer obeyed the law as he should have (there's a higher level of expectancy for officers to obey the law than average citizen, no?), the dude would still be alive. He did nothing to deserve death. Therefore, the officer was completely at fault.

Whether it's cigarettes or jay walking, putting up a minor struggle with an officer does not warrant illegal use of deadly force by the officer.

Rsty, do you still question whether or not Brown was carrying the cigars in his hand?

Nope! Sold on witness youtubes provided by DIX. Question for you and DIX, though, since it's clear that Johnson says the cigars were in both his and Brown's hands, is the rest of his story believable and should he be charged with a crime?

#387 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 03:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Another day, and Dix is still making excuses for an inept police officer that shot an unarmed black kid.

You must really hate black people Dixie.

#388 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-08-28 03:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

I do wish Rsty would come back and answer the question if he still believes that the cigars weren't in Browns hand after you posted the video of Johnson's comments.
#384 | POSTED BY DALTON AT 2014-08-28 02:10 PM | FLAG: | NEWSWORTHY 2

FINALLY! I actually feel wanted around these parts.

:-P

#389 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 03:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

#387 We do not know what kind of struggle was put up by Brown.

#390 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2014-08-28 03:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, at the end of 387 you asked "should he be charged with a crime?" Who are you talking about?

I enjoy debating stuff with you and we've had a good one on this thread b/c you don't go all "you hate black people" like clown does. Or you are a Nazi like BB.

#391 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 03:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, at the end of 387 you asked "should he be charged with a crime?" Who are you talking about?

Johnson.

I enjoy debating stuff with you and we've had a good one on this thread b/c you don't go all "you hate black people" like clown does. Or you are a Nazi like BB.

Oh, believe me, I type all that stuff out, but then reconsider and delete it before hitting post (jest! meant in jest...LOL!).

#392 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 03:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dang man! I was just joking in the latter portion of #392!

#393 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 04:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

Funny Rsty. Johnson carried stolen items from the store and probably would and should be arrested if not for the killing. After the killing if they had arrested Johnson Ferguson would exploded since he was/is a witness.

#394 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 04:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

After the killing if they had arrested Johnson Ferguson would exploded since he was/is a witness.
#394 | POSTED BY DALTON

A "receiving stolen property" charge would not be worth it at this point. I have to agree. I mean, if Texas DA isn't going ahead with felony charges against the Pot Brownie Baker because they consider a waste of time, similar could be said for Johnson's criminal behavior.

#395 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 04:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well nearly 400 post and I think we can finally put this issue to bed until the grand jury does it's thing.

#396 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 04:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well nearly 400 post and I think we can finally put this issue to bed until the grand jury does it's thing.
#396 | POSTED BY DALTON

#397 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 04:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

I could've done w/out that Rsty.

#398 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-28 04:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Is there a way to block these autoplay videos?

#399 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-08-28 04:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

Is there a way to block these autoplay videos?
#399 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

They shouldn't be autoplay. They are meant to play once cursor hovers over them. If that's not what's happening, I will cease using the gifs.

#400 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-28 05:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's a very good question Rusty. It's possible, maybe even likely, that Johnson faces exposure much greater than just receiving stolen property. That's what I was getting at in my #343.

Making intentionally false and misleading statements to influence an investigaton can lead to obstruction of justice charges and worse. If the Feds/police figure out who Johnson spoke with when he returned to the scene they may find a second person, or a network of people, who fed Johnson the version of the shooting that he put forward as his own. If he can be linked through these people to the ongoing intimidation aimed at the Ferguson Market, or the looting of the businesses across the street from the Market (security footage?) his troubles could be very large indeed.

The consequences of his actions and statements are so large, in fact, that he may be primed for a plea-bargain deal. It's not unreasonable.

#401 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 09:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rsty, at the end of 387 you asked "should he be charged with a crime?" Who are you talking about?

Johnson.

I enjoy debating stuff with you and we've had a good one on this thread b/c you don't go all "you hate black people" like clown does. Or you are a Nazi like BB.

Oh, believe me, I type all that stuff out, but then reconsider and delete it before hitting post (jest! meant in jest...LOL!).

#392 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Indeed, it has been a fruitful, focused back and forth. Next week I'll get a thread going on the tribulations Johnson might be facing. There are a lot of angles to his Federal Witness status that haven't been explored much.

#402 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 10:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

Now we're getting closer to where I was going with that dumpster fire at the shooting scene.

Did Johnson's flight take him past the dumpster at the end of the parking lot behind Piaget Crenshaw's building?
To whom did Johnson speak when he returned to the scene?
Why didn't he speak to the police at the scene?
These are good questions.

#216 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

www.kmov.com

#403 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 10:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Now we're getting closer to where I was going with that dumpster fire at the shooting scene.

Did Johnson's flight take him past the dumpster at the end of the parking lot behind Piaget Crenshaw's building?
To whom did Johnson speak when he returned to the scene?
Why didn't he speak to the police at the scene?
These are good questions.

#216 | POSTED BY DIXVILLENOTCH

www.kmov.com

#404 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 10:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Question for you and DIX, though, since it's clear that Johnson says the cigars were in both his and Brown's hands, is the rest of his story believable and should he be charged with a crime?

#387 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

He provides no motive for Wilson's actions.

The cruiser door bouncing off both their bodies after opening not an inch makes no sense. Especially to the point that it almost knocked the wind out of him.

He struggles to place himself in the scene. Only two witnesses place him at the scene at all, and no one places him at the window during The Tussle.

He has many details wrong, especially as the situation plays on.

If the shot pattern alleged in this very thread were correct his one shot - one shot - several shots account is wrong.

If the evidence continues to play out in this manner, especially the lack of witnesses seeing him and the close range shot to Brown's chest that apparently didn't happen, I find him hard to believe.

#405 | Posted by DixvilleNotch at 2014-08-28 10:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

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