Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, August 25, 2014

Two former top military and counterterrorism officials said on Sunday that the United States should be prepared to start working with the very dictator that the Obama administration said must leave office because of the humanitarian atrocities he has committed. Appearing on ABC's This Week, General John Allen, who commanded the Afghanistan War, and Richard Clarke, a former top counterterrorism adviser, said that the effort to stem and ultimately kill the Islamic State (ISIS) would require some form of partnership with Syrian President Bashar Assad.

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Allen was less committal about such a partnership,... still, he conceded, for an operation against ISIS to be successful, it would require a Syria component and an informal, if not entirely unsaid, collaboration with Assad.

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This is one of the reasons a nation's politicians should come together over foreign policy problems often stranger than fiction. At the very least an extremely seasoned debate should be taking place without the partisan demagoguery and name calling when so much is at stake.

To my inexperienced eyes, this appears to be a Saddam Part II, and determining the greater good is as difficult as winning the lottery. Every action or inaction is fraught with peril and potentially cataclysmic regional consequences. I don't know the regional dynamics like a lot of other posters, so I'll be reading to watch and learn.

#1 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-24 08:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

Reddit is by far the best source for news on the Syrian civil war:

reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar

#2 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2014-08-24 09:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

syrian civil war subreddit

#3 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2014-08-24 09:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

These aren't devout Muslims fighting for various religious causes, they're nothing but motley groups of lawless thugs who primarily resort to kidnapping and hostage taking in exchange for money and power.

We will never be able to wipe them out entirely. When too much pressure is put on one particular group, it seems they just disband and their members scatter back to their various tribes and clans. Then once they feel it's safe to re-surface, they morph into some newly-named Muslim terrorist group no one has heard of before.

Trying to wipe them out is like playing a Middle Eastern version of jihadi whack-a-mole

#4 | Posted by CalifChris at 2014-08-24 11:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

So does Assad still have to go?

#5 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-25 09:22 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

This makes far more sense than the Hillary/McCain plan of aiding ISIS in Syria as we fight them in Iraq.

#6 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-25 09:24 AM | Reply | Flag:

And our politicians talk about arming the "good rebels". If there are still any good rebels left, they are no match for ISIS or Assad. Anything we give them will eventually end up in the hands of the more competent groups, none of whom we want to arm. And to the extent that the "good rebels" weaken Assad, they increase the chances of ISIS eventually winning.

When Hillary pretends that arming the weak factions earlier would have made a difference, she's doing us all a disservice. The real lesson to learn here is that it is stupid for us to ever expect the "good guys" to win in this region and the best we can do is hope that the bad guys who are in power are the ones who are content to leave us alone.

#7 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-25 10:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

Give Assad his chemical weapons back. Buy him some lightly used Russian fighter aircraft to deliver them with.

Apologuize and admit that he was right and we were wrong.

#8 | Posted by madbomber at 2014-08-25 10:16 AM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

What a tangled web we weave.

#9 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-25 11:09 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

-Give Assad his chemical weapons back.

Apparently that would make some isolationists happy.

#10 | Posted by Corky at 2014-08-25 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

So, we need Assad in order to take out ISIS (whom we had a hand in arming in the first place, in order to take out Assad) so we can then take out Assad.

OK. I bet Assad goes for that one.

Our foreign policy is a patchwork quilt of supercilious folly disguised as informed decision. We 'blow up' without thinking about 'blow back'. The reasons we give for our actions are peppered with prejudices and prevarications.

Syria, without Assad, will be just like Iraq or Libya. And that makes things better HOW?

We are in desperate need of a major shift in focus in this country. Fix the inward and you may very well find the best way to fix the outward.

#11 | Posted by scalawag at 2014-08-25 11:44 AM | Reply | Flag:

Dear Assad,

We are so very deeply sorry we made ISIS the fighting force they are today. We were just trying to remove you from power, not what we built in Iraq, but now what we built in Iraq is being threatened, so would you mind giving us a hand in stopping the monster we helped create to destroy you so we can get back to trying to destroy you?

Thanks in advance,
The United States

#12 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-25 11:48 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

I think the only way many of these Middle Eastern countries stay intact is through a strong, ruthless dictator. We rush to get rid of these guys without thinking of the consquences. I do not think democracy can work in an area of the world where a medievel religion determines law & order. Assad is the devil we know. We probably need to find a way to work with him to squash ISIS...then (unfortunately) turn a blind eye to whatever human rights issues he is abusing.

#13 | Posted by CaseyJones at 2014-08-25 11:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

I think the only way many of these Middle Eastern countries stay intact is through a strong, ruthless dictator.

Didn't Saddam once say something like, if we removed him from power, we would need 10 of him just to restore it?

#14 | Posted by kanrei at 2014-08-25 11:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

He may have Kanrei. I acknowledge that the Iraq war was a huge mistake & we are dealing with the fallout However, we can't just walk away and hope everything gets better. Hopefully, we learn & don't get into the business of regime change...ever again.

#15 | Posted by CaseyJones at 2014-08-25 12:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

He may have Kanrei. I acknowledge that the Iraq war was a huge mistake & we are dealing with the fallout However, we can't just walk away and hope everything gets better. Hopefully, we learn & don't get into the business of regime change...ever again.

Posted by CaseyJones at 2014-08-25 12:03 PM | Reply

Good luck with that. With American arrogance believing they know what's best for another country I don't see that not happening ever again.

#16 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-25 12:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

A person or group will continue to act "medieval" if given plenty of opportunities to act "medieval".

Certainly, the events of the last ten years, subsequent to the invasion of Iraq 10 years ago, has done that.

We could have stopped with Afghanistan, showed ourselves to have the power of self control and wisdom, but we didn't. We allowed our prejudices and sense of superiority get the better of us.

We killed many many people in Iraq for absolutely no reason, And that goes beyond any singular atrocity that ISIS has committed. Why? Because it was done, not in the name of some crazy religious ideology, but because it was done in the name of America. Do we hold ourselves to any sort of a higher standard? Or is that just a fantasy?

In order to establish law and order, justice and common sense, one cannot use a bomb first and ask for understanding later. One cannot use the reasons we have been using.

The politicians in this country have a talent for one thing-- getting elected. Once that has happened, the question marks start to form in clouds above their heads. "What do I do???" In swoop the special interests and the lobbyists. They shape the policy. Therein lies the problem.

Our leaders are not leaders. They are followers. They follow the wind that blows easiest. They follow the money that floats on the wind. They follow those who have followed before them. Hope and Change is simply a matter of raising an alternate finger to check for the inevitable wind that will always be followed.

#17 | Posted by scalawag at 2014-08-25 12:10 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Maybe this time we will be greeted with flowers and chocolates. Maybe our Saudi friends will help us pacify the region. Maybe the 'friendly, peace-loving, moderate Muslims' will finally step up to the plate and protect their collective interests. Anyone who has watched "Lawrence of Arabia" more than once understands more about Arab politics and nationalism than the boobs who gave us this tar baby. Thanks, now watch this drive...

#18 | Posted by catdog at 2014-08-25 12:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

There is no way in Hell we should either overtly or covertly be aiding Assad. He is butcher who has overseen the murder of over one hundred thousand of his own people. This is not a case of 'my enemies enemy is my friend'.

#19 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-08-25 02:28 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

What a rediculous foreign policy disaster we've created.

#20 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-25 02:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Better email the white house then Moder8. Cause it looks like what they are going with.

#21 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-25 02:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

There is no way in Hell we should either overtly or covertly be aiding Assad. He is butcher who has overseen the murder of over one hundred thousand of his own people. This is not a case of 'my enemies enemy is my friend'.

#19 | POSTED BY MODER8

And so was Saddam. Did we learn anything over the last three decades? Imagine if ISIS, or some other faction without actual control, was now in charge in Syria. Do you think the region would be more stable, particularly with Israel's attacks on Gaza and the devolution of Iraq's state as we speak?

Assad and ISIS have much in common, but only one of them can currently act as a stabilizing influence in the region and is still recognized as a sovereign power within international laws. We cannot strike within Syria without Assad's approval. What other recourse is there?

#22 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-25 02:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

So put Tony down with making nice with a dictator that slaughtered 100's of thousands of his own people. Check. So now we are going to help the guy that just a couple of years ago Obama told us he had to go right after his sec of state Hillary told us Assad was a reformer.

#23 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-25 02:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

#23

It isn't "making nice", it's called cooperating toward a common goal.

"The enemy of my enemy" sometimes rings true....

Having said that, it doesn't mean turning a blind eye to all the wrong. Maybe cooperation in this area might open up meaningful dialog into making needed internal changes within Syria. Stranger things have happened when the stick is replaced by a carrot.

#24 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-25 03:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

This is Reagan/Saddam redux ONLY this time it appears it's going to be Obama/Assad. I wonder if Obama will help Assad to chemically kill his own people like Reagan did for Saddam. Oh what a tangled web we weave.

#25 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-25 03:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why aren't our leaders embarrassed to admit this? Assad cannot compete with the USA, or even Israel, in terms of the human death and misery they have promulgated around the world.

#26 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-25 05:30 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

"He is butcher who has overseen the murder of over one hundred thousand of his own people. This is not a case of 'my enemies enemy is my friend'."

The US "butchered" millions of people during WWII. And is doing so saved millions more from being butchered. Being a butcher is not necessarily a bad thing.

This is evident in the middle east. In case you hadn't been paying attention, Islamism is the current iteration of the ideological movement that has both the desire and the capacity to ruthlessly subjugate entire civilizations. For my money, I would have preferred that Assad been allowed to butcher a few thousand more. If he had, we might not be where we are today. But what I do know is that ISIS is not going to surrender. They're going to fight to the death. So let's make it quick and minimize the impact on the rest of the world.

#27 | Posted by madbomber at 2014-08-25 07:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

#22, #26

The Russians and Chinese have figured it out. Maybe it was the failure of socialism that convinced them that ideologies cannot be consistently applied across the globe with any expectation of success. In any case they seem to accept the necessity of the dictator, particularly in countries that are inherently unstable. I remember hearing that Putin wasn't a huge fan of Assad, but understood that Assad represented a level of stability that would otherwise be absent. And Putin was absolutely correct. We've seen in Egypt and Iraq what happens when immature societies are left to rule themselves.

#28 | Posted by madbomber at 2014-08-25 08:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

#22, #26
The Russians and Chinese have figured it out.

George Bush figured it out too.
Too bad George W. Bush didn't bother reading his dad's memoirs.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-08-25 08:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

We've seen in Egypt and Iraq what happens when immature societies are left to rule themselves.
#28 | Posted by madbomber

Iraq had their capacity for governance deliberately destroyed by Bremer and De-Ba'athification. Not so much "immature" as "purged of maturity."

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood tried to use the legislative process to institute an Islamist state and were eventually shut down by the military, in a move that only the Muslim Brotherhood and certain American right-wingers objected to.

#30 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-08-25 08:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Let the Middle East sort it out. When Isis knocks on Saudis door. Then Muslim countries will be forced to deal with their own roosting chickens.

#31 | Posted by klifferd at 2014-08-25 11:29 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

Let the Middle East sort it out. When Isis knocks on Saudis door. Then Muslim countries will be forced to deal with their own roosting chickens.

Posted by klifferd at 2014-08-25 11:29 PM | Reply

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#32 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-25 11:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Are you nuts? We might not get their oil if we do that.

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-08-26 01:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

Two weeks ago Obama called them the Junior Varsity squad. Now we need Syria's help if we're going to fight them?

Does that say something about us? Or about them? Or about Syria?

Or maybe it says something about Obama. His intelligence is bad, and his metaphors are stupid.

#34 | Posted by WhiteDevil at 2014-08-26 02:02 AM | Reply | Flag:

"When Isis knocks on Saudis door. Then Muslim countries will be forced to deal with their own roosting chickens."

They won't be knocking on the Saudis' door, the Saudis are one of their sponsors. They will be attacking the non-Sunnis in various nations. The question shouldn't be "are we willing to work with Assad?" It should be "are we willing to work with Iran and the Ayatollah."

#35 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-26 09:06 AM | Reply | Flag:

We shouldn't work with either. We don't need Assad and we don't need Iran to take care of the ISIS problem. This is how we get ourselved tangled up in their proxy wars. If ISIS is the problem Dempsey and Hagel claimed a few days ago which now they have been told to back off of then they need to be destroyed. We can work with the Kurds and try to convince some of the Sunni tribal leaders that it's in their best interest to help. If the president works with Assad after claiming he had to go he loses all credibility. If he works with Iran he might as well hand them a nuke.

#36 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 09:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

Mosul was always a conservative city when it came to women's rights. However the Sunni Muslim extremists who took control of the town have made it even more difficult for females. Women must now wear facial veils and gloves and may not leave their homes unaccompanied. In one suspected case at least, the price for protesting these rules has been death.

On August 10 at around noon, an older woman arrived at a market in the centre of Mosul. She had bad back pain and it was also extremely warm. A bearded, heavily armed man got her attention and then asked her why she was not wearing a niqab, the traditional veil that covers almost the whole face, leaving only the eyes visible.

"I tried but I just about suffocated in the summer heat," the old lady said, not hiding her sarcasm.

"So you will wear it in winter then?" the bearded man asked her, raising his voice because he thought she couldn't hear him properly.

"Is Daash even still going to be here in winter?," the old lady asked, using the Arabic acronym for the Sunni Muslim extremist group formerly known as the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, or ISIS – the group took control of the northern city in early June this year. She was making a joke – but her question also reflects the fact that the extremists, who now call themselves simply the Islamic State, or IS, are being forced to fight to maintain the territory they control.

www.juancole.com

I thought this was a interesting story.

#37 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 09:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

"If he works with Iran he might as well hand them a nuke."

That simply does not follow. I think we should leave it to the governments in the ME to fight ISIL but offer them air support if they want it, no troops on the ground though.

#38 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-26 10:42 AM | Reply | Flag:

Iraq had their capacity for governance deliberately destroyed by Bremer and De-Ba'athification. Not so much "immature" as "purged of maturity."

By De-Ba'athification, you mean the removal of authoritarian government. Which was the point I was making.

"Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood tried to use the legislative process to institute an Islamist state and were eventually shut down by the military, in a move that only the Muslim Brotherhood and certain American right-wingers objected to."

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood was using the legislative process when it suited them. When that wasn't a possibilty, they simply went outside the constitution and the legislative process. Very similar to what Allende had done in Chile. But the bottom line is that there wasn't going to be a western-style democracy in Egypt. Not with a surplus of Islamist politicians.

"Are you nuts? We might not get their oil if we do that."

We could probably get it for cheaper if that happened, by giving them a few more F-15s. Of course the Texas Railroad Commission would want no part of anything that resulted in declining oil prices.

#39 | Posted by madbomber at 2014-08-26 11:08 AM | Reply | Flag:

"...but offer them air support if they want it..."

I think it would only take one missile landing in your own backyard to change your mind on airstrikes. we're killing old women and kids over there. and leaving tens of thousands crippled for life with no medical support.

but what do you care from your designer kitchen?

#40 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-08-26 11:11 AM | Reply | Flag:

Are you nuts? We might not get their oil if we do that.

#33 | Posted by snoofy

Umm, we're not getting it now, nor have we. China is getting 80% of it.

#41 | Posted by Daniel at 2014-08-26 11:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

no troops on the ground though.

#38 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-26 10:42 AMFlag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

What do you think those 1,000 advisors are doing? Think they might be in the field painting targets? They were already deployed for weeks to save that group on the mountain. They flew into Syria to rescue the hostages and were in a pretty severe fire fight with ISIS while there. No one is calling for occupation but, don't tell me we don't have boots on the ground. Some may have already been killed? That is the beauty of troops that don't exist on paper. You don't have to report casualties and can claim they weren't really there.

#42 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 11:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

Umm, we're not getting it now, nor have we. China is getting 80% of it.

Posted by Daniel at 2014-08-26 11:14 AM | Reply

351,000 barrels of crude per day as of May 2014 from Iraq we get.

www.eia.gov

#43 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-26 11:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

That simply does not follow. I think we should leave it to the governments in the ME to fight ISIL but offer them air support if they want it, no troops on the ground though.

#38 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-26 10:42 AM | Reply | Flag:

If we work with Assad we only strengthen him. If we work with Iran we only make them closer allies w/ the Shia in Iraq. This has to be fixed by us with air support and convince the Sunni, Shia, and Kurds it's in their best interest to get rid of ISIS.

#44 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 11:24 AM | Reply | Flag:

351,000 barrels of crude per day as of May 2014 from Iraq we get.

www.eia.gov

#43 | Posted by LarryMohr

Iraq produces 3,400,000 barrels per day so, we get about 10% of it.

#45 | Posted by Daniel at 2014-08-26 11:29 AM | Reply | Flag:

What is hilarious and shows people are just partisans is that when it comes to keystone pipeline we shouldn't do it b/c we don't get the oil b/c it goes into the world market. When it comes to Iraq we some how get it all piped straight in.

#46 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 11:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

Iraq produces 3,400,000 barrels per day so, we get about 10% of it.

Posted by Daniel at 2014-08-26 11:29 AM | Reply

You made that number up didn't You.

#47 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-26 11:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

You made that number up didn't You.

#47 | POSTED BY LARRYMOHR AT 2014-08-26 11:46 AM | FLAG:

In March they were doing 2.8 million per day. The yearly average was shaping up to be 2.9 million per day, but then ISIS came along so that's probably going to go down a bit.

#48 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-26 12:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

"If we work with Assad we only strengthen him. If we work with Iran we only make them closer allies w/ the Shia in Iraq"

It will take all of the various nations and different religious groups to defeat and eradicate the region of ISIS. If you don't cooperate with Assad they will have a safe home base in Syria. If anything ISIS should have taught us that we shouldn't be deciding who are the good guys and bad guys in the ME. We didn't seem to learn when we toppled Saddam and chaos resulted, we seem to be still refusing to learn when we assist the rebels in Syria and ISIS results. I say let the people of the ME battle ISIS, if they choose to do so, and offer them assistance through air power until this group is dead.

#49 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-26 12:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Assad is going to fight them b/c his life depends on it. My main point is for Iraq to correct it's problems they are going to have to figure out how the different factions can find a common enemy. It may be impossible but, if you allow Iran in then they will have their claws in so deep you will never get them out. There is no way you can call Assad a war criminal and say he has to go and then work with him though. No way Obama will do that if for no other reason than his ego. For ISIS to be stopped or hopefully destroyed the Sunni's have to buy in if that's possible. To me not letting Iran in even deeper would go a long way towards a inclusive government in Iraq.

#50 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 12:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

I understand what you fear about Iran but it isn't the United State's decision, it is that of the Iraqi government, the Syrian government of Assad and the rebels not aligned with ISIS. It seems to me that it is in all of their best interests to put aside whatever differences they have until this threat is wiped out, then they can resume killing each other.

#51 | Posted by danni at 2014-08-26 12:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Iraq produces 3,400,000 barrels per day so, we get about 10% of it.

Posted by Daniel at 2014-08-26 11:29 AM | Reply

You made that number up didn't You.

#47 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2014-08-26 11:46 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

You made that number up didn't You.

#47 | POSTED BY LARRYMOHR AT 2014-08-26 11:46 AM | FLAG:

In March they were doing 2.8 million per day. The yearly average was shaping up to be 2.9 million per day, but then ISIS came along so that's probably going to go down a bit.

#48 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Thanks Sitz, I stand corrected. I was using old data from wiki. Sooo, we get 12.5% from Iraq instead of 10%. My bad.

#52 | Posted by Daniel at 2014-08-26 12:48 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

My point Danni is you can't get rid of ISIS completely until the Sunnis reject and fight them for Iraq.

#53 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 12:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

You can't get rid of ISIS unless you kill all of the Sunnis. ISIS is Team Sunni Extreme.

#54 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-26 01:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

We had the Sunnis on board at one time even though it was fragile. Malike sided w/ Iran rather than his fellow countrymen and that's why the Sunni tribes in Iraq sided with ISIS.

#55 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 01:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

They were only on board when they were paid to be on board. The opportunity to buy off the Sunni militias is long gone and all the best fighters have gone to ISIS anyways.

Speaking of ISIS, they just overran 3 separate Syrian bases, capturing all the equipment from an artillery battalion, an air base with Mig-21s, SAMS, and the air defense equipment that kept an eye on Turkey (major source of ISIS armaments), and an armored battalion's base.

#56 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-26 01:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sitz, I just think we should try that first before we let Iran in and team up with Assad.

#57 | Posted by Dalton at 2014-08-26 01:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

Too late. That ship sailed. Iran is already in the mix. Revolutionary Guards are fighting with Assad. They're fighting on the ground in Iraq on behalf of shia muslims.

Hezbollah is on the ground in Syria fighting with Assad. Even the Free Syrian Army, if their leadership's twitter accounts are to be believed, are looking to reconcile with Assad and fight ISIS.

The kurd YPG are good fighters but geographically isolated and haven't had to face off with the brunt of ISIS's forces. ISIS has more friends in Turkey than the Kurds do. The kurd Peshmerga can't stand on their own without major US intervention.

#58 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-26 01:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

Obama and his Junior Varsity comment is hilarious. Why haven't any of you Pom Pom wavers commented on just how dismally stupid and out of touch Obama is for having uttered it? Maybe he should golf and vacation less, and pay more attention to world events.

He is totally over his head, but what did we expect, he had no resume to speak of, but at least he was black.

#59 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-08-26 04:38 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Oiy vey.

#60 | Posted by Tor at 2014-08-28 11:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

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