Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Saturday, August 02, 2014

A chokehold used by a white police officer on a black New York City man during his arrest for selling untaxed, loose cigarettes last month caused his death, the medical examiner announced Friday, ruling it a homicide. Eric Garner, 43, whose videotaped confrontation with police has caused widespread outcry and calls by the Rev. Al Sharpton for federal prosecution, was killed by "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," said medical examiner spokeswoman Julie Bolcer. His death was caused by the "compression of his neck (chokehold), compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police" and asthma, heart disease and obesity were contributing factors, Bolcer said.

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ichiro

 

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arrest the cop, jerk him up out of his new desk seat and throw him behind bars.
arrest his accomplices, too.

#1 | Posted by ichiro at 2014-08-01 07:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

The choking officer should be charged with manslaughter in the least for his actions. In a better world, every cop on the scene at the point of the chokehold should be charged with accessory after the fact, and then the charges should be dropped if the officers agree to pay some restitution to the man's family. Police have to know and respect the limits too. When a surrounded suspect in a chokehold says "I can't breathe!!!" they need to stop what they're doing.

#2 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-01 07:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

When a suspect literally says "I can't breathe" that suspect is a liar. If he couldn't breathe he wouldn't be able to talk.
Fact.

#3 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-08-01 07:48 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Cops are a violent gang, no doubt. Some monsters need choking though. I'm not saying it was necessarily the case this time, but drugged up people and really large people are almost impossible to subdue.

We have all seen strong capable men struggle to subdue people that genuinely needed to be subdued. Nightsticks and saps used to be the answer. Sometimes that was overkill. Then tasers. Those are prone to abuse too.

I don't envy cops. I don't like them for the most part, because they're usually above consequences, but unless they're MMA champions subduing people is a crap shoot.

#4 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-08-01 07:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

101 - I'm being nice here.

When one dies, it is quite common for them to utter a last word or sentence due to oxygen leaving the lungs. It does not mean oxygen is being taken in. The examiner included chest compression which means he was not able to inhale. Dead men tell no lies.

#5 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2014-08-01 07:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

Pro,
I don't believe I've ever heard of such a thing. I'm not saying you're full of it, I'm just saying I have never heard of it.
Anyway, to be more specific regarding #4, somebody that says that whilst being choked is a liar.
It's like coughing while choking. If you're coughing you're getting the airs...

#6 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-08-01 08:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

101...

The damn homicide was on video, watch and listen for yourself: www.youtube.com

#7 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-01 08:45 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

And for God's sake, when someone is saying "I can't breathe" obviously they have some breath. They're leaving off the word "normally." They're saying "My breathing is being compromised and it will lead to my asphyxiation if it continues."

#8 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-01 08:51 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#4
everything you said except: "cops are a violent gang" and "I don't envy them" is unmitigated --------.

you attempted and failed in saying anything relevant about methods available to them, with a wink towards what might be overkill--pun intended i'm sure--aka brutality; the choke hold is banned. illegal in NY and other places.

your BS goes further with your stupid defintion of "to breathe." breathing out, exhaling, your last few words in this case, is NOT breathing. breathing is a two-way exercise, "breath" is one-way. gasping out, or gasping in, is NOT breathING.

sit down...and stay down.

#9 | Posted by ichiro at 2014-08-01 09:03 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

oh gee, look..i hadn't even seen #5.

you need help.

#10 | Posted by ichiro at 2014-08-01 09:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

#6

AGAIN WRONG.

i sometimes encounter, personally, violent cough. i my case it is all violent exhale (cough) until i pass out...then the muscles relax and i wake up because my braun has received oxygen again.

very poor attempt to walk back what you emphatically said..,the only ____ here is you.

#11 | Posted by ichiro at 2014-08-01 09:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

Cops need to have consequences. I can only hope this goes somewhere. And if it leads to them having to "hesitate" and "second guess" while doing their jobs - good. The rest of us call that "thinking before you act." A professional is someone who has learned to do so quickly and accurately. An unprofessional cop by contrast, would be one who cannot learn such skills and must be sacked for the public good then.

I know. That's a difficult thing to ask of a group with a capped IQ, but necessary.

#12 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2014-08-01 10:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ichiro,
Your comprehension is beyond poor.
If you can talk, you can breathe. If you're coughing, you're getting air.

Either you have never been in a physical confrontation or you're simply trolling. Subduing almost anyone can be difficult. Anything else you're reading in to it is your baggage, bag.

#13 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-08-02 09:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

When one dies, it is quite common for them to utter a last word or sentence due to oxygen leaving the lungs.

The Man in Black: Toooo Blaavee
Inigo: True love! You heard him! You could not ask for a more noble cause than that.

#14 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-08-02 10:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

so there is a video showing a guy in a chokehold gasping that he can't breath, and a report saying he was choked to death... yet 101 thinks he was lying?

You really can't fix stupid

#15 | Posted by 503jc69 at 2014-08-02 01:47 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 5

You're right, you can't fix stupid. From the link...Garner is heard saying repeatedly, "I can't breathe!"

If you are repeatedly saying you can't breathe, you can in fact breathe. I'm not sure what part of that confuses you fools.

Perhaps you bags could read the story and inform yourselves?

#16 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-08-02 03:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

m=-When a suspect literally says "I can't breathe" that suspect is a liar. If he couldn't breathe he wouldn't be able to talk.
Fact.

#3 | POSTED BY 101CHAIRBORNE AT 2014-08-01 07:48 PM | FLAG: IN THE TOP TEN OF STUP9ID

Sometimes its the they with their last breath you idiot. You'd be pooping your pants and saying the same thing on your way if it were you.One of the horrible things about suffocation and strangulation is it doesn't happen quickly.

#18 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2014-08-02 07:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

hate mongers and ignoramuses know more than the medical examiners.

You can't convince cognitive dissonance. Insecurity always find some excuse to deny reality in order to continue living in the fantasy world they believe in.

Homicide is ruled based on the facts by professionals.

#19 | Posted by klifferd at 2014-08-02 08:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Somehow police abuse is recognized and relegated to righting the wrongs and only the rights of certain racial groups instead of ALL Americans.

All Americans need treated equally under the law, and not just a protected class.

#20 | Posted by Robson at 2014-08-02 08:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

#21 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-02 11:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nice cherry picking, that's not what he said at all. Now take a Midol and calm down champ.

rwd

#22 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2014-08-02 11:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

When a suspect literally says "I can't breathe" that suspect is a liar. If he couldn't breathe he wouldn't be able to talk.
Fact.

#3 | POSTED BY 101CHAIRBORNE

The man is dead. You realize that, don't you? Or did he hold his breath just to make a statement?

Idiot. You and RWD.

#24 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-02 11:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

#24 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-02 11:29 PM | Reply | Flag

I am not going to argue for 101 he can do that well enough on his own. The way you cherry picked his comment is not really what he said. But I suppose it fits your standard.

rwd

#25 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2014-08-02 11:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

#25 | POSTED BY RIGHTWINGDON

Damn fnckin' straight! He wouldn't have brought up "some monsters" if he didn't have an intention of smearing the victim as such.

There's a reason they declared the maneuver illegal.

The cops are screwing themselves over with this type of behavior. LA riots were the result of a culmination of hyper policing in certain neighborhoods, whether justified or not.

Legitimacy theory by Tom Tyler convincingly explains people's reactions to police such as those associated with this case. The administrators should take notice. As people begin to acknowledge the reality of the CJS (systematic racism), police and authority will be respected/obeyed less and less. The Feds and States need to take public accountability and amend for this New Jim Crow era or this cycle of crime, poverty, and inequality will not end.

#26 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2014-08-02 11:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

If the victim was an average white guy who would be his advocate (Al'Sharpton or mayor) and what media would make it an issue (NYT?), D or R Party? These types of issues only get media traction when a politician or others see political gain because of alleged racism or because of a protected class. This abuse is wrong regardless of the victim.. Media and pols don't see it that way.

#27 | Posted by Robson at 2014-08-03 07:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

Apparently, according to some on the right, death is an appropriate penalty for SUSPICION of selling untaxed cigarettes.

#28 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2014-08-03 09:34 AM | Reply | Flag:

"If the victim was an average white guy who would be his advocate"

all of the internet..

i read way more stories about white person getting killed by cops then black person because the media and public doesn't usually care.

#29 | Posted by klifferd at 2014-08-03 10:32 AM | Reply | Flag:

the question is when a black person is killed by a cop, why does he need an advocate? shouldn't the public care? the answer is no they usually don't.

#30 | Posted by klifferd at 2014-08-03 10:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

#30...KLIFFERD we already know what the status quo is about and we know it isn't fair or right. Society in general neither deserves abuse, nor does it deserve to have special classes of victims.

#31 | Posted by Robson at 2014-08-03 10:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

Thinking is hard...

For you?

His death was caused by the "compression of his neck (chokehold), compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police" and asthma, heart disease and obesity were contributing factors, Bolcer said.

If he was killed due to a chokehold, as in choked to death, maybe one of you dumb bastards could explain what the inclusion of the other factors are for?

#17 | POSTED BY 101CHAIRBORNE

One of us 'smarter than you bastards' would be glad to. IF this same man had not been afflicted by asthma, heart disease and obesity, the exact same actions by the police officer may not have led to his death. These factors contributed to his death because their existence exacerbated the harm caused by the chokehold itself.

Your entire line of thought is ignorant on its face because it's in complete conflict with the actual undisputed facts even as you recounted them yourself.

#32 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-03 01:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

SOP. Cop kills citizen, gets put on 10-16 week leave with pay and then gets exonerated.

#33 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-08-03 03:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

No doubt cop stopped his breathing which directly led to his death.

And I hate hate hate anything that tries to blame a victim.

But I sat my son down years back when he said he hated the cops and told him to never make the mistake of resisting arrest because you'll get hurt. GO along and know we'll be there to get you out and get it fixed.

#34 | Posted by 88120rob at 2014-08-04 10:08 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

There's a reason they declared the maneuver illegal.

#26 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11 AT 2014-08-02 11:43 PM | FLAG:

It was banned 20+ years ago... however grappling knowledge has advanced considerably since then. A RNC is legal in all grappling competitions all the way down to the beginner level. The vast majority of police departments allow choke holds. Some restrict "air chokes", but only a few restrict "blood chokes". NY is short on sense. MMA is illegal but stop & frisk for black people is normal.

The other posters are not wrong. If you can talk you are not being choked. That's how it is. I've been on both ends of it. You can compress somebody's neck without ever achieving the choke if you do not apply the technique correctly or fully. Done wrong, squeeze all you want, but you will never actually cut their air or blood supply off. You just get tired. The variant that cop used cuts off both when applied fully and correctly. If the choke was fully applied that guy would have lost consciousness completely in under 10 seconds (and probably started snoring).

If you do not believe me go to a brazilian jiu jitsu gym and ask for a rear naked choke demonstration. Try to talk while it's applied. Ask for the clasped hands variant the officer used.

#35 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-04 10:24 AM | Reply | Flag:

#35

Take up your stupid argument with the dictionary:

choke

verb

1. (of a person or animal) have severe difficulty in breathing because of a constricted or obstructed throat or a lack of air.

"Willie choked on a mouthful of soda"
synonyms: gag, retch, cough, fight for breath
www.google.com


Being "choked" doesn't mean one has ALL AIR restricted and it never did!

#36 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-04 10:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

Whatever hold he used, the medical examiner says the cop killed him. Cops shouldn't be killing on the street. There are plenty members of the public who could never be medically cleared to participate in MMA on any level. This guy was one of them.

#37 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-04 10:40 AM | Reply | Flag:

If he didn't resist arrest he would have never been choked.

Unfortunately, and I mean that sincerely, he died.

The most disturbing part of the video to me is when the paramedics arrived and stood around apparently doing nothing.

#38 | Posted by tontonmacoute at 2014-08-04 10:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

If he didn't resist arrest he would have never been choked.

Arrest for what? The bystanders all agreed that the man hadn't been selling cigarettes, so what evidence and witnesses did the police have giving them probable cause to arrest him?

So vocally disagreeing with the police - with on-scene corroboration - is now an arrestable offense?

#39 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-04 10:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

Being "choked" doesn't mean one has ALL AIR restricted and it never did!
#36 | POSTED BY TONYROMA AT 2014-08-04 10:31 AM | FLAG:

We're talking about chokeholds here. Read it. Go to the gym. Learning something. Submission grappling is fun. You might like it.

This guy was one of them.

#37 | POSTED BY SULLY AT 2014-08-04 10:40 AM | FLAG:

They're trained to use instant, overwhelming force. Little cops, big dude. 6'3", maybe 400 pounds. They don't have star trek tricorders, they couldn't know they were dealing with a asthmatic, diabetic, walking heart attack. They've got union lawyers, so I think they'll walk, manslaughter at worst.

#40 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-04 11:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

So vocally disagreeing with the police - with on-scene corroboration - is now an arrestable offense?

#39 | POSTED BY TONYROMA AT 2014-08-04 10:55 AM | FLAG:

Street cops are basically dictators. What happens when you upset a dictator?

#41 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-04 11:06 AM | Reply | Flag:

#39 If they say you're under arrest because the sky is blue, resistance is illegal and at your peril.

If cops overstep their authority, the place to settle that is in a court room, not on the street.

#42 | Posted by 88120rob at 2014-08-04 11:12 AM | Reply | Flag:

#42 | POSTED BY 88120ROB

Well said.

#43 | Posted by tontonmacoute at 2014-08-04 11:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

The bystanders all agreed that the man hadn't been selling cigarettes

They aren't a court of law. If he hadn't resisted, he would have made it to a court of law with those bystanders testimony to make that determination. But he wanted to fight. You cant put your terms on police. It doesn't work that way. Sometimes the fight is brought to you.

#44 | Posted by boaz at 2014-08-04 11:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

They're trained to use instant, overwhelming force. Little cops, big dude. 6'3", maybe 400 pounds. They don't have star trek tricorders, they couldn't know they were dealing with a asthmatic, diabetic, walking heart attack. They've got union lawyers, so I think they'll walk, manslaughter at worst.

#40 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-04 11:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

Was the guy 400 lbs or did they have no way of knowing he was unhealthy? Make up your mind.

That the guy is dead proved that what they did was inappropriate. If it was within guidelines, the guidelins need to be changed.

They're not supposed to be killing people when it is avoidable - especially over petty crime - and this was completely avoidable. I don't know why some people feel the need to champion a situation where you'd have to be a psychopath to agree with the outcome. The rational response is to try and figure out what went wrong.

#45 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-04 11:29 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Self-defense: You have the right to defend yourself against police misconduct. An officer using excessive force against you has changed the arrest from lawful to unlawful. Keep in mind that if the officer's use of force was in response to forceful resistance from you, you lose your self-defense claim. Also, your response has to be reasonable given the circumstances. You cannot break free and start hitting the officer.

www.attorneys.com

#46 | Posted by tontonmacoute at 2014-08-04 11:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

#42 | POSTED BY 88120ROB

Well said.

#43 | Posted by tontonmacoute at 2014-08-04 11:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

If only the cops shined their boots with poison.....

#47 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-04 11:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

if the officer's use of force was in response to forceful resistance from you, you lose your self-defense claim.

www.attorneys.com

I don't say I like the law but this was what Mr. Garner was facing.

#48 | Posted by tontonmacoute at 2014-08-04 11:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

Was the guy 400 lbs or did they have no way of knowing he was unhealthy? Make up your mind.

The rational response is to try and figure out what went wrong.

#45 | POSTED BY SULLY AT 2014-08-04 11:29 AM | FLAG:

Considering I've seen a 400 pound bjj purple belt (should take 6 years to get) who not just competed in physically intense submission grappling competitions, but won them, it seems you can be both 400 pounds and not a walking heart attack.

Lawful use of a force is what makes law enforcement work, so lets just assume they will always have that power. You resist and cops use it on you. With that power it is impossible to correctly judge the amount of force required to subdue somebody safely 100% of the time. The problem is obvious, unfortunately the solutions are not.

#49 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-04 12:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Considering I've seen a 400 pound bjj purple belt (should take 6 years to get) who not just competed in physically intense submission grappling competitions, but won them, it seems you can be both 400 pounds and not a walking heart attack."

Being 400 lbs in and of itself is a serious health issue.

"Lawful use of a force is what makes law enforcement work, so lets just assume they will always have that power. You resist and cops use it on you. With that power it is impossible to correctly judge the amount of force required to subdue somebody safely 100% of the time. The problem is obvious, unfortunately the solutions are not"

They were in no danger and had no reason to use lethal force. Sane people don't want cops killing someone over refusing to be cuffed. If they can't use the technique with enough care to avoid killing people then they shouldn't be using it.

#50 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-04 12:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

They were in no danger and had no reason to use lethal force.

#50 | POSTED BY SULLY AT 2014-08-04 12:30 PM | FLAG:

A prosecution actually has to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt they intended to use lethal force. I think that's unlikely. Manslaughter I would give a reasonable chance of a conviction.

#51 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-04 12:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

A prosecution actually has to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt they intended to use lethal force. I think that's unlikely. Manslaughter I would give a reasonable chance of a conviction.

The choking officer should be charged with manslaughter in the least for his actions. In a better world, every cop on the scene at the point of the chokehold should be charged with accessory after the fact, and then the charges should be dropped if the officers agree to pay some restitution to the man's family. Police have to know and respect the limits too. When a surrounded suspect in a chokehold says "I can't breathe!!!" they need to stop what they're doing.

#2 | POSTED BY TONYROMA AT 2014-08-01 07:39 PM

#52 | Posted by tonyroma at 2014-08-04 01:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

A prosecution actually has to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt they intended to use lethal force. I think that's unlikely. Manslaughter I would give a reasonable chance of a conviction.

#51 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-04 12:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

What I'm saying is that even if they aren't guilty of anything, the policy should be reviewed. If we can all agree that death was not a desired outcome then it only make sense to take a step back and ask ourselves whether cops are qualified to use this type of force without accidents happening. Like you said, they aren't medical experts or psychics and have no way of knowing what kind of issues the person they are choking may have. So maybe they shouldn't choke people in non-threatening situations at all.

#53 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-04 01:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

Confucius say the family of Eric Garner is about to come into a lot of money in the near future.

#54 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-08-04 02:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

So maybe they shouldn't choke people in non-threatening situations at all.

#53 | POSTED BY SULLY AT 2014-08-04 01:11 PM | FLAG:

That guy wasn't restrained yet, not searched, he said he would not comply at the beginning of the altercation, and was bigger than both cops. Where they truly failed was not performing CPR when he stopped breathing.

To reform less-than-lethal restraint... I just want to know how. The other options are beat him senseless with batons, electrocute him into compliance with tasers, pepper spray him, or shoot him with beanbag rounds. It always ends on the ground, face first handcuffed with police on top of them. No matter how you slice it "less than lethal" options could possibly be lethal, no different than physically restraining somebody, but with much less effort on part of the cop.

The other option is pull guns and start pointing them, but that's an automatic escalation from less-than-lethal to lethal means.

#55 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-08-04 03:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

"It always ends on the ground, face first handcuffed with police on top of them."

Yep. Even if the cops disengaged and waited for backup, it would have ended that way. He wasn't a masked bank robber they had chased down on foot. Not saying that isn't problematic too but let's not pretend they didn't have options.

I don't understand why people argue with results. The dead guy is an undesirable result. Most people look to avoid undesirable results.

#56 | Posted by Sully at 2014-08-04 03:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

This is a case of excessive force, for the crime of selling tobacco cigarettes. There should be consequences for the cops involved. However, when i viewed the video, and a day later a second video, what i saw was the detained man resisting being handcuffed and fighting as he was being taken down, BEFORE the chokehold was applied. Once the handcuffs were applied, pressure on his windpipe should have been released. i am not at all sure the suspect cop was not trying to kill the subdued man.

The concept he could have uttered [i can't breathe] with his last supply of air is elementary, not hard to grasp in the least.

#57 | Posted by kenx at 2014-08-04 05:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

To reform less-than-lethal restraint... I just want to know how.
#55 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Well if you really want to know how, maybe you should look at how they handle people suspected of selling illegal cigarettes elsewhere in the modern world.

It reads like you're not that interested in learning how. It reads like you're mostly interested it making excuses for the police.

#58 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-08-04 06:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

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