Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, July 23, 2014

National Rifle Association commentator Billy Johnson this week proposed that children be forced to learn shooting skills in order to graduate as part of a plan to enact "gun-required zones" in the United States, and use taxpayer money to subsidize firearm purchases. "Just like we teach them reading and writing, necessary skills. We would teach shooting and firearm competency," he explained. "It wouldn't matter if a child's parents weren't good at it. We'd find them a mentor. It wouldn't matter if they didn't want to learn. We would make it necessary to advance to the next grade."

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Johnson also suggested that the government would have to "subsidize" the purchase of guns like it did with food, education, and health care.

"I mean, perhaps we would have government ranges where you could shoot for free or a yearly allotment of free ammunition," he said. "Gun policy, driven by our need for guns would protect equal access to guns, just like we protect equal access to voting, and due process, and free speech."

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The fact that gun manufacturers would make millions in taxpayer money is merely a coincidence.

#1 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-23 02:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dumb idea, not the educational part, but the government funding portion. Although maybe if the reverse Obama's idiotic block of collector firearms and use our surplus guns.

But as far as education goes that is a great idea. Teach the kids about them the same way we teach them about health or sex issues or even driving. Reduce accidents, add knowledge, useful skills, remove the fear of the unknown, create a real respect and remove allot of the false information people have about them. It's a winning scenario.

#2 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-23 03:01 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

They just keep getting crazier.

#3 | Posted by danni at 2014-07-23 03:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's a ridiculous idea. Most parents and children don't need or want anything to do with guns. We're supposed to force children to handle firearms?

Right, teaching tens of millions of children to use guns is going to "reduce accidents".

I can only imagine what the homework assignments would be.

#4 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-23 03:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've seen at least two videos of children sitting in a classroom watching a gun safety demonstration where the instructor shoots himself by accident. One of them was funny as hell because the guy is trying to the "Every is OK" thing and the kids are screaming at him "Put the gun down!". Kids had more sense than he did. Although I do give him credit for playing it off so well considering the pain he must have been in....

Also, I can't imagine they could use live rounds. All those school shooting kids wouldn't even have to bother finding a gun anymore. If the person they want to shoot is in their gun class they can just wait for the teacher to hand them a loaded gun and then shoot another kid.

#5 | Posted by Sully at 2014-07-23 03:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Graduate from what?

#6 | Posted by eberly at 2014-07-23 03:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

I think live fire goes too far, unless parents agree otherwise for their child. General gun safety should be mandatory for all kids (no live rounds anywhere near the class). Drop DARE and substitute gun safety.

#7 | Posted by et_al at 2014-07-23 03:41 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"It's a ridiculous idea. Most parents and children don't need or want anything to do with guns."

Considering that about half of households have at least one, methinks you are wrong.

"Right, teaching tens of millions of children to use guns is going to "reduce accidents"."

Without a doubt. Teach respect for them and how to operate them and you will reduce accidents. That is simple fact and it is the same thing we do with many other subjects. Why is hunting just about the safest recreational activity in this country?

Would you rather a child not know anything about them and if they are ever in a situation where they encounter one have no idea what to do?
Remove the mystery ans intrigue that is natural curiosity. Show them how different actions operate and safe ways to handle them. Otherwise you are just hoping that their curiosity will not get the better of them. I for one would much rather my child be able to clear an action and know to always keep the muzzle away from people.

#8 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-23 03:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Also, I can't imagine they could use live rounds."

Basic training courses never do. Those skills come long before you deal with loaded weapons. Then it would only be at a range and as et al said it would be a consent thing.

Although blank guns might be useful, a screw up and that kid will never forget what they did wrong.

#9 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-23 03:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

- In a video title "Everyone Gets A Gun"

At least he isn't a shilling for more gun sales.... oh, wait...

#10 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-23 04:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Would you rather a child not know anything about them and if they are ever in a situation where they encounter one have no idea what to do?"

I can teach them what to do in fifteen seconds. "Run like hell!"

#11 | Posted by danni at 2014-07-23 04:11 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

If someone tried to put a gun in my kids hands I'd shoot him on the spot.

#12 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2014-07-23 04:28 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

"I can teach them what to do in fifteen seconds. "Run like hell!""

Oh, abstinence only? How well does that work?

#13 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-23 04:39 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Considering that about half of households have at least one, methinks you are wrong.

#8 | POSTED BY SALAMANDAGATOR

This ain't the 70s anymore. Currently it's around 30-35%.

Would you rather a child not know anything about them and if they are ever in a situation where they encounter one have no idea what to do?

"Okay, kids, if you ever find a gun make sure it's not loaded and the safety is on."

We teach them not to touch it and tell an adult. Like how we teach children not to run onto a busy street.

#14 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-23 04:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

"This ain't the 70s anymore. Currently it's around 30-35%."

Try again. it's 47%

www.gallup.com

"We teach them not to touch it and tell an adult."

And the kids always listen. The times where there is an accident the kids were never told to leave a gun alone?

Kids do not always listen and the forbidden fruit looks sweeter. So it is shortsighted and dumb to pin safety on the just don't touch it. It did not work with sex and did not work with drugs. But no i am sure this is different, i mean how would a kid ever disobey in this scenario right?

#15 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-23 05:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

We teach them not to touch it and tell an adult.

Yes, ultimately that is the best course of action. However, that alone fails to address the natural curiosity of children. "Remove the mystery ans intrigue that is natural curiosity. Show them how different actions operate and safe ways to handle them. Otherwise you are just hoping that their curiosity will not get the better of them." Sal at 8 above.

Like how we teach children not to run onto a busy street.

How well does that alone work? www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov

#16 | Posted by et_al at 2014-07-23 05:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Try again. it's 47%

#15 | POSTED BY SALAMANDAGATOR

I've seen more polls showing 30-35%.

And the kids always listen.

I'd rather teach kids to stay away from guns rather than handle a potentially loaded weapon. How many kids have accidentally fired a gun they picked up? Lots. Now how many kids have accidentally fired a gun they didn't pick up?

#17 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-23 05:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Like how we teach children not to run onto a busy street.

How well does that alone work? www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov

#16 | POSTED BY ET_AL

We should teach children how to safely run onto a busy street?

#18 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-23 05:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

True story...
I have a broken BB gun on the picnic table in the backyard. My kids and the neighborhood kids are back there all the time. All of them are familiar with guns and hunting. They've never so much as touched the gun.
Then, my niece and nephew visit. The nephew (10) sees it and immediately tries to pick it up. He's yelling that guns are scary and that him and his sister aren't allowed around guns. Yet the fool keeps trying to pick it up. Finally my kids tell him if he doesn't like it to simply leave it alone. He just couldn't stop going for it and staring at it.
My kids didn't care and weren't at all curious about it because they are familiar with them. The nephew wasn't familiar, and he was like a moth to a flame.

#19 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-07-23 05:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

How many kids have accidentally fired a gun they picked up? Lots. Now how many kids have accidentally fired a gun they didn't pick up?"

Do you really believe that the kids who picked them up and played with them did not know they were not supposed to? Come on be serious.

The shelter them completely is a failed and ludicrous concept. No one would argue that with most other situations. What is it about guns that makes you think that reality will change and this will magically be thew one time it works?

#20 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-23 05:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

We already have a massively funded public education system for young people who want to learn about guns. They also get to see the world.

#21 | Posted by rcade at 2014-07-23 05:51 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"We should teach children how to safely run onto a busy street?"

Yes, and we do. We teach them how to approach, how to make sure it is not dangerous and how to safely cross.
Education is what keeps kids far safer then just trying to instill fear.

#22 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-23 05:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'd rather teach kids to stay away from guns rather than handle a potentially loaded weapon.

That's too rational, Derek. You're supposed to have extremely dangerous objects in your home so that kids become comfortable around them.

That's why I have the wood chipper out back and it's always plugged in.

#23 | Posted by rcade at 2014-07-23 05:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

"We already have a massively funded public education system for young people who want to learn about guns. They also get to see the world."

So why not use the military. Have their instructors develop and teach the kids. It would not cost much and would have nothing but positive impact for the kids.

#24 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-23 05:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

How many kids have accidentally fired a gun they picked up? Lots. Now how many kids have accidentally fired a gun they didn't pick up?

It's like the sex ed debate but turned on its head.

Kids will be kids. Preparing them for what they might encounter is a far better idea than hoping and wishing they'll listen to advice against their natural curiosity.

BTW, how many of those kids in the "lots" category were told "don't touch a gun" or "get an adult" or "run like hell". I'm willing to bet a large majority.

#25 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-23 05:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

So why not use the military.

The military has better things to do than operate a massive customer acquisition program for the private gun industry.

I'm not surprised the NRA would run the views of a commentator who wants the government to buy guns and ammo for people. The group is a marketing organization for gun manufacturers that pretends to be a public interest group.

#26 | Posted by rcade at 2014-07-23 06:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The military has better things to do than operate a massive customer acquisition program for the private gun industry."

We are talking the education of children not handouts. Use the military to teach the children rather what to do then just let them guess if they ever end up in a situation where they might just see one of the 350 million guns that exist in this country seems a lot more reasonable then just telling them to run away.

But painting with a broad brush, LOOK!!! Finally a handout the left does not want.

#27 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-23 06:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

We should teach children how to safely run onto a busy street?

How about someone teach you not to be obtuse.

And yeah, one can safely run into a busy street just like one can safely handle a loaded gun. The question was, is "no," alone, enough. Apparently, it isn't when adults are still getting smacked in the street as the statistics show.

#28 | Posted by et_al at 2014-07-23 06:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Make Kids Shoot Guns to Graduate"

As long as you're the target, Billy.

#29 | Posted by Harry_Powell at 2014-07-23 06:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

In related news every quadriplegic would like to give this gun nut the finger.

#30 | Posted by Tor at 2014-07-23 06:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Johnson also suggested that the government would have to "subsidize" the purchase of guns like it did with food, education, and health care"
LOL...

This CRAZY idea would cost BILLIONS of dollars . How about we send the bill to the good folks at the NRA ?? If they are willing to send cash to George Zimmerman. I am sure they would be more then willing to fund this very important education agenda.

Thanking the NRA (in advance) for their funding
Sammy

#31 | Posted by SammyAZ_RI at 2014-07-23 07:53 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I am old enough to remember when kids (pre-teens) went shooting with bb-guns or rimfire rifles with little or no adult supervision. No accidental shots either. Why? Because they were around firearms at home and were taught from a very early age how to safely handle and fire a gun.

Here's a good message that would help today's kids be safer around any firearm they come into contact with. Even better than Danni's 'run like h*ll' mantra.

If you see a gun:
Stop!
Don't Touch!
Leave the area!
Tell an adult!

eddieeagle.nra.org

#32 | Posted by AKat at 2014-07-23 08:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

#31 SammyAZ: How about we send the bill to the good folks at the NRA ??

In case you didn't know, the NRA spends a lot of money each year teaching kids, hunters and even law enforcement folks safe and proper firearms handling. The money comes from membership dues.

Not that I'm a big apologist for everything the NRA does, but this is one thing they've done right for many decades.

#33 | Posted by AKat at 2014-07-23 08:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

Interesting concept.

When I was 16 we did a school play that involved a shot being fired. One of the kids brought in a .45 that was loaded with blanks for the play. It was a cool scene the lights go out there's a shot lights come up and someone is dead. The scene played very well with the real gun with blanks the flame from the blanks was much more impressive than the starter pistol that was originally going to be used.

Anyway when he brought the gun in every darn kid in the play wanted to hold it play with it etc. Not a one had any kind of gun training and had the guy who brought it not used his head and left all ammunition at home I have no doubt that there would have been a school shooting. I'll admit to being one of the idiots.

A gun training class would have helped quite a bit.

Just trusting that your kids will never encounter a gun is foolish, and trusting that they will just walk away is to ignore the basic nature of children.

#34 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-07-23 08:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's why I have the wood chipper out back and it's always plugged in.

#23 | Posted by rcade

Wouldn't you be safer if you kept it in the living room so your children could stay proficient at chipping?

You just don't care about your children very much.

#35 | Posted by donnerboy at 2014-07-23 08:47 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

How many kids have accidentally fired a gun they picked up? Lots. Now how many kids have accidentally fired a gun they didn't pick up?
#17 | POSTED BY DEREK_WILDSTAR

Astounding logic....

How do you get out of bed?

#36 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-07-23 08:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

One of the kids brought in a .45 that was loaded with blanks for the play.

I'm surprised that happened. Guns that fire blanks can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. The actors Jon-Erik Hexum and Brandon Lee both died in on-set accidents involving them.

#37 | Posted by rcade at 2014-07-23 09:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Join ROTC...

#38 | Posted by Greatamerican at 2014-07-23 09:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Astounding logic....
How do you get out of bed?

#36 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

It's true. Children are accidentally shooting themselves, people and other children on a regular basis.

Yet for some bizarre reason it never happens when a child doesn't pick up a gun.

#39 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-23 10:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Guns killing children: An American epidemic

#40 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-23 10:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Yet for some bizarre reason it never happens when a child doesn't pick up a gun."

But is some strange phenomenon the ones it does happen to are almost without exception told not to touch them just like you would leave it at.
Strange isn't it, make something off limits and there is more curiosity in the mind of a child. Isn't that strange?

Oh wait no it is not, it is completely normal. Expecting human nature and the very nature of a child to just disappear because you want it to is irresponsible and beyond absurd.

#41 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-23 10:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

But is some strange phenomenon the ones it does happen to are almost without exception told not to touch them just like you would leave it at.

You think you know "almost without exception" that gun accidents only happen to children who were told not to touch guns?

This sounds like your certainty that the only way a gun got left at a Target toy store was from a pro-gun control false flag operation. The truth was that a gun-toting idiot thoughtlessly left the gun there.

By the way, Derek's advice is the same advice the NRA's Eddie the Eagle offers:

"If you see a gun:
STOP!
Don't Touch.
Leave the Area.
Tell an Adult."

eddieeagle.nra.org

#42 | Posted by rcade at 2014-07-23 10:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

A northern Minnesota man was charged Wednesday with shooting a 17-year-old girl several times after authorities say she told him not to ride his lawn mower through her yard.

According to the complaint, the girl told investigators that a man who lived nearby had been riding his mower through her yard and that he routinely carried a pistol in his holster.

#43 | Posted by northguy3 at 2014-07-23 10:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

#43

That has exactly what to do with the point of this thread?

Yet for some bizarre reason it never happens when a child doesn't pick up a gun.

Absolutely true, yet that logic applies to never walking near traffic, never riding in a car, never entering a swimming pool, never...engaging in any number of daily activities.

Again, what exactly does that have to do with gun safety education beyond "no?" More importantly, why would anyone oppose gun safety education beyond "no," especially if like "stay out of traffic" it doesn't always work. Sometimes, it take more.

#44 | Posted by et_al at 2014-07-23 11:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

There are a lot of classes they need to teach to everyone in public school:

Basic Contract law like buying a car or a house

How to file a lawsuit

Self defense (not with a gun)

Simple home repairs

Guns... I'm concerned about the quality of the teaching staff and their ability to handle a bunch of teenagers. However, The military hands weapons to 18-year-olds, many of whom are from poor families and areas, with very good results, so it could work.

I don't think this guy meant his comment to really happen, but by saying something a tad extreme, it makes people start to think about it and what could be. People are won over not by reason, but by time and reinforcement.

#45 | Posted by LEgregius at 2014-07-23 11:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

42. If you recall in that thread I said it was more likely then a ccw holder to have left it. No certainty and I was not wrong, it was not a ccw holder.

Now as to the rest, yes that is what virtually every child is told. They even teach it in kindergarten. So let's not be ridiculous and say the kids just did not know they were not to touch a gun.
Thirdly, look at the Nra site, that is the beginning but it goes on to say how inportant it is to teach kids gun safety and even lists the very basics. Do not touch might be better then nothing but if it is only barely. The question is why would anyone object to teaching children saftey? Well, it's a simple and obvious answer, but I am not allowed to say it on this site.
Either way it's irresponsible to willingly choose to deny safety training to children and just hope that the kids will always listen and obey.

#46 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-24 12:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

I can teach them what to do in fifteen seconds. "Run like hell!"

#11 | Posted by danni

Yeah, convince them that they can outrun a bullet and that panicking instead of staying calm is the best strategy! Nice!

#47 | Posted by mariosanchez at 2014-07-24 12:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

Amazing.

I'm almost certain those opposed to this are also opposed to abstinence only sex ed.

BTW do most of you against this realize you can have a gun with a functioning action and trigger that is unable to actually fire ammunition? You could absolutely teach proper handling and disarming of a weapon without handing the kids a functional firearm.

#48 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-24 12:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm surprised that happened. Guns that fire blanks can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. The actors Jon-Erik Hexum and Brandon Lee both died in on-set accidents involving them.

Private school, we did lots of things that never would have happened in public school.

I think there was some discussion about the safety factor but it was decided to go ahead with the real gun and blanks because of the visual effect. Bunch of 16 year old kids who didn't really understand the risk and a drama coach who maybe tried a bit to hard to be the "cool teacher"

#49 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-07-24 08:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

I don't own a gun or firearm of any kind. I did learn to shoot like a "natural" at evening classes sponsored by the early nineteen sixties version of the NRA, when I was about thirteen years old. We used the local National Guard Armory's shooting range, and blasted away at circle targets with single-shot, bolt-action .22 rifles at about twenty-five feet. I recall when we got all ten shots on the target, we got a patch, and when all ten shots were in the next concentric ring, we got another patch. In two months, I was putting all ten shots in the black circle. Then the targets were moved out, probably to fifty feet, and the process began again, until we were shooting at the end of the indoor range. I actually received the last badge, but man, did I blow through the ammunition to get there. I may have gone through as many as two to three thousand rounds, I don't know. I never touched a firearm again until I enlisted in the USAF to avoid the draft seven years later.

I could have shot "expert" when I went through USAF basic training, but I was under scrutiny by my drill instructor for being a smartass, and so I deliberately missed exactly enough "hits" to qualify, but not make "expert."

#50 | Posted by john47 at 2014-07-24 09:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

Either way it's irresponsible to willingly choose to deny safety training to children and just hope that the kids will always listen and obey.

Around 30% of all guns in homes with kids in them are not secured. That's the biggest issue with gun safety -- extremely reckless adults. It gets their own kids killed and visiting kids killed.

Anyone who leaves a gun unsecured that ends up killing a kid ought to spend at least a year in jail.

#51 | Posted by rcade at 2014-07-24 09:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

I dont know about that but I do think every child should take a gun safety class.

#52 | Posted by tmaster at 2014-07-24 09:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'd rather teach kids to stay away from guns rather than handle a potentially loaded weapon. How many kids have accidentally fired a gun they picked up? Lots. Now how many kids have accidentally fired a gun they didn't pick up?

#17 | POSTED BY DEREK_WILDSTAR

From this and a few more of your posts, Derek, I presume you are an advocate of teaching abstinence in lieu of sex education? No teaching about condoms or the pill or anything else regarding "safe sex"? Just DON'T TOUCH and assume their natural curiosity will be laid to the wayside?

Don't get me wrong..I think this guy has jumped out of the realm of reason, but I believe the same thing about mandatory sex ed and handing out rubbers in middle school. This, like sex ed and driving, IS THE PARENT'S JOB TO TEACH. If you don't know how but you think it's important for your kid to be safe around firearms, find a girl scout or boy scout troop to join. Join 4H. Both have target shooting. I would bet money that if you brought your 9 year old to any hunting/shooting club in the United States, members would line up to help teach him/her firearm safety FOR FREE.

#53 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2014-07-24 09:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

If you recall in that thread I said it was more likely then a ccw holder to have left it.

What I recall is saying that the simplest explanation was the most likely one -- that a thoughtless idiot left his gun in the toy aisle by accident -- and you going on and on about how ridiculous my logic was.

#54 | Posted by rcade at 2014-07-24 11:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

So nobody wants to bite on the abstinence only comparison.
Shocking...

#55 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-07-24 12:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

"So nobody wants to bite on the abstinence only comparison."

That would require thought rather then knee jerk reaction. The parallel is obvious bu the conclusion does not fit acceptable politics for far to many so it does not matter.
But that does not surprise me in the least bit, talk guns and denial of reason is par or the course for the anti-gun nuts.

#56 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-24 12:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Abstinence-only sex ed does harm. Comprehensive sex ed does good and saves lives.

Forcing children to shoot guns in order to advance grades and graduate is beyond ridiculous.

I and the rest of the world just live in a completely different world. If I went up to a group of parents and told them we should teach their children to shoot guns they would rightfully think I was crazy.

A completely different world.

10,000 gun deaths a year? More guns!
School shootings? More guns!
Kid shooting themselves? More guns!

It's extremism.

#57 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-24 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Derek,
Thinking isn't your thing, so let me help you out..."more guns" aren't needed. The children could be trained on existing ones.
Regardless, that isn't the point, as most thinking people already knew.

#58 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-07-24 03:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

I should have said 30,000 gun deaths a year or 10,000 gun murders a year.

More guns wouldn't be needed? There are tens of millions of students. How are those existing guns supposed to get to those tens of millions of kids?

#59 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-24 03:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Abstinence-only sex ed does harm. Comprehensive sex ed does good and saves lives."

In other words it only works for the things you want it to work for. And the reasons abstinence only does not work is because it is a magical subject that does not comply with normal human nature.
Yup, that sounds reasonable.


" and the rest of the world just live in a completely different world. "
Luckily enough you are wrong. There are more people who are rational to at least some extent then there are those willing to suspend reality for their political motivations.

"10,000 gun deaths a year? "
About 8000 are gang killings, according to the FBI.

"Kid shooting themselves? More guns!"
Kids shooting themselves by accident is a product of your way of thinking.

#60 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-24 03:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

And the reasons abstinence only does not work is....

......reality.

#61 | Posted by 726 at 2014-07-24 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

i agree with this.

kids should also learn to:

swim while holding onto another person
ride horses
use bow and arrows
learn 3 power chords on an electric guitar
use honey instead of sugar from time to time
grow and eat broccoli and beets
basic plumbing
how to chop wood
the disuse of the word "like"
how to brew their own
how to grow their own
hold a baby properly
hold a man/woman properly
how to find the television remote using a dowsing wand...

i could go on and on...

#62 | Posted by NerfHerder at 2014-07-24 03:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

Self defense (not with a gun)

#45 | POSTED BY LEGREGIUS AT 2014-07-23 11:47 PM | FLAG:

Wrestling is as close as you're going to get. It's a sound base to work off of. On the upside, unarmed self-defense training is at the highest quality it has ever been and quality gyms have proliferated greatly in the last decade, primarily due to the growth of MMA.

#63 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-07-24 05:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

About 8000 are gang killings, according to the FBI.

#60 | POSTED BY SALAMANDAGATOR

The number of homicides involving adult or juvenile gang violence increased from about 220 homicides in 1980 to 960 homicides in 2008. Gang violence accounted for 1% of all homicides in 1980 and 6% of all homicides in 2008.

Bureau of Justice Statistics

#64 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-24 05:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

www.cdc.gov
All firearm deaths
• Firearm deaths by suicide:
..............................
............ 19,766..................19,392
• Firearm deaths by accident:
..............................
..........8 51......................606
• Firearm deaths caused by LEO (non-accidental):
.............258..............
........ 412

• Firearm deaths by homicide (total):
..............................
.11,101..... .............11,078
• Firearm homicides (gang related and included in total):......8,880 (80%)...........8,862 (80%)
• Firearm homicides (non gang and included in total):...........2,220 (20%)...........2,215 (20%)
• Firearm deaths of self defense*
and undetermined intent:
..............................
............. ..4,224....................4,6
56

#65 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-24 05:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Derek,
Again, you miss the obvious. It's either intentional, or you are severely lacking in intellect and common sense.
You don't need tens of millions of guns to teach gun safety to tens of millions of kids. Did I really need to explain that to you, or do you get rewarded for playing stupid?

#66 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-07-24 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Uh, well those years are 2010 and 2010. Sorry for the jumble can't get it to post right. but it is in the link.

#67 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-24 05:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

• Firearm homicides (gang related and included in total):......8,880 (80%)...........8,862 (80%)

#65 | POSTED BY SALAMANDAGATOR

I can't find that in the link. Can you tell me what page it's on?

#68 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-24 06:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Derek,
Again, you miss the obvious. It's either intentional, or you are severely lacking in intellect and common sense.
You don't need tens of millions of guns to teach gun safety to tens of millions of kids. Did I really need to explain that to you, or do you get rewarded for playing stupid?

#66 | POSTED BY 101CHAIRBORNE

From the article:

"In a video titled "Everyone Gets A Gun""

"Johnson also suggested that the government would have to "subsidize" the purchase of guns like it did with food, education, and health care."

#69 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-24 06:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

68. Did I link to the wrong one? I'll check tomorrow back at the office.

#70 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-24 07:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Make Kids Shoot Guns to Graduate"

Does this sound like a corporate scam or what?

It's the equivalent of McDonalds trying to force students a/o schools to buy 100 big macs a year to graduate.

#71 | Posted by Tor at 2014-07-24 07:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

"In a video titled "Everyone Gets A Gun""

Are you discussing the issue with that idiot or with the folks posting on this thread? I don't think anyone here has said that. So, what's your point?

On gun safety education you admit that abstinence only, "no,' is a bad and that comprehensive education is the better way to go. Then, hypocritically, you argue that with gun safety "no" is the better way and comprehensive education is bad.

Cognitive dissonance, much?

#72 | Posted by et_al at 2014-07-24 07:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Mustang GT made the exact same point much earlier in the day, Et Al.

Unsurprisingly, nobody seriously challenged his argument.

#73 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-07-24 07:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Thanks.

Needed to be repeated.
-Ghost of Zat

#74 | Posted by et_al at 2014-07-24 07:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

68. Did I link to the wrong one? I'll check tomorrow back at the office.

#70 | POSTED BY SALAMANDAGATOR

There's nothing about it in the link you provided. I think you got it from a misleading pro-gun site.

#75 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-24 07:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Are you discussing the issue with that idiot or with the folks posting on this thread? I don't think anyone here has said that. So, what's your point?

#72 | POSTED BY ET_AL

I'm discussing that issue with anyone. I think it's a terrible idea.

#76 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-24 07:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

#76

Talking to yourself and terminal cognitive dissonance. Seek professional help.

#77 | Posted by et_al at 2014-07-24 07:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

10,000 gun deaths a year? More guns!
School shootings? More guns!
Kid shooting themselves? More guns!

It's extremism.

Easy bud. Grab a paper bag and breath into it. Slow, deep breaths while concentrating on your breathing. This hysteria can pass.

#78 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-24 08:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

69
The discussion clearly turned in to gun safety/education. Nobody was paying any credence to anything other than gun safety/education.

#79 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-07-24 10:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

No hysteria. Just making a point.

Hysteria? After Newtown, there was a huge surge in the sale of AR-15s. What kind of a sick @#$% rushes out to buy the very weapon that just massacred children?

Because of new sanctions against Russia, orders for AK-47s have quadrupled. Why? Do these people think they're fighting a civil war in Africa or the Mid East?

I really have nothing against the right to own firearms. It's just so crazy in the US. It's as if a good chunk of America believes the country should be like what they've seen in Wild West movies.

Most of the civilized world can't comprehend it. It's so senseless.

#80 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-24 10:28 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

The discussion clearly turned in to gun safety/education. Nobody was paying any credence to anything other than gun safety/education.

Gun safety education is fine. Don't need to teach it at school though. Certainly don't need to do what the crazy NRA guy is suggesting.

When it's for a hobby or hunting, it's great to teach children gun safety. But we're talking about forcing every child to learn gun safety. There's absolutely no need. The majority of kids will never think about using a gun and know what to do if they find one.

Don't touch it. It's dangerous. It can hurt people.

Many people like crazy NRA guy do want every child to learn how to handle firearms. Where does it stop? Shouldn't all parents have a say in whether they want their kids to be involved with guns or not?

#81 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-24 10:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Don't touch it. It's dangerous. It can hurt people.

IOW, just say no. Abstinence, "it's what doesn't work!" Well...except...it does...if...I...think...it does. Maybe, if I click my heals...

Seen a professional yet?

#82 | Posted by et_al at 2014-07-25 01:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

heels

#83 | Posted by et_al at 2014-07-25 01:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

"There's nothing about it in the link you provided. I think you got it from a misleading pro-gun site."

Well then here are some more.

usatoday30.usatoday.com
www.fbi.gov

www.reuters.com
www.cdc.gov

#84 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-25 12:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Criminal gangs commit as much as 80 percent of the crime in many communities"

Nothing in those links stating gangs are responsible for 80% of all firearm homicides in the US.

#85 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-25 01:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

How The NRA Is Trying To Clean Up Its Bizarre Mandatory Gun Training For Kids Proposal

The National Rifle Association is trying to smooth over the extreme ideas presented in a recent video suggesting children should have to receive mandatory gun training "to advance to the next grade" by mischaracterizing the video and airing a deceptively cropped version of it on NRA News.

Johnson's suggestion children would have to become proficient with a gun to move on in school was widely ridiculed. Now the NRA is responding to critics with the misleading suggestion that Johnson was merely talking about the importance of teaching children gun safety.

Johnson appeared on the July 24 edition of NRA News' Cam & Company on The Sportsman Channel to defend his video. Host Cam Edwards started the conversation by saying, "One of the things that specifically the anti-gunners are flipping out about is [Johnson's] suggestion that if we had a national gun policy, that again, embraced our right to keep and bear arms, one of the things we might be talking about is educating kids about how to be safe and responsible with a firearm, regardless of whether or not their parents were gun owners. That thought ... has really got people on the anti-gun side of the equation freaked out. They're saying that you're demanding compulsory education of firearms training for kids, they are wondering why on earth any child would need to know how to be safe and responsible with a firearm and I find it fascinating because they're ignoring the fact that there are already hundreds of thousands of kids across this country who are safely and responsibly learning about firearms."

Edwards ended the segment by showing "a portion of this commentary clip so you know what it is that the anti-gun folks are actually freaking out about."

Unfortunately NRA News cut the video just before the most controversial part of his commentary, where Johnson said: "Just like we teach them reading and writing, necessary skills. We would teach shooting and firearm competency. It wouldn't matter if a child's parents weren't good at it. We'd find them a mentor. It wouldn't matter if they didn't want to learn. We would make it necessary to advance to the next grade."

Media Matters

#86 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-25 04:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Nothing in those links stating gangs are responsible for 80% of all firearm homicides in the US."

Do you need it spelled out for you?

But here are some more. This time it says explicitly so no math is needed, that might make it a bit easier for you.

www.lapdonline.org
chicagotonight.wttw.com
www.govtech.com

#87 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-25 05:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

Those are local stats where they have done police studies.

#88 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-25 05:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Unfortunately NRA News cut the video just before the most controversial part of his commentary,"

Nothing controversial just common sense.

#89 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-25 05:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

www.lapdonline.org
chicagotonight.wttw.com
www.govtech.com

#87 | POSTED BY SALAMANDAGATOR

1. Los Angeles only
2. Chicago only
3. Chicago and "Some 80 percent of the nation's largest cities and half the country's suburbs report significant gang problems."

I wouldn't doubt that gangs are responsible for up to 80% of firearm homicides in many major cities and suburbs. But there's still nothing that says gangs are responsible for 80% of firearm homicides in all of the US.

#90 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-25 06:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Unfortunately NRA News cut the video just before the most controversial part of his commentary,"

Nothing controversial just common sense.

#89 | POSTED BY SALAMANDAGATOR

"Common sense" that the NRA is now trying to hide from.

#91 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-25 06:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

Here's something from The Wall Street Journal with the FBI as a source:

Murder in America

111,289 firearm murders between 2000-2010 in all states except Florida

7,878 Juvenile Gang Killings
+
1,089 Gangland Killings

= 8% of all firearm murders

#92 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-25 06:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Wait, what? 111,289 firearm murders in just ten years?

Teaching children to shoot guns is supposed to lower that?

#93 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2014-07-25 07:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

Look at the data, you are talking cases where there has been a conviction and the conviction was gang based, not just members of gangs. Now look at unknown and argument. Look at what the fbi says as well as local. It's just like speed as a factor in crashes, just because the actual speed is unknown does not make it not a factor. Many precincts even have multiple categories for gang homicides but those do not translate to all definition. I will give you that there has not been much at all in studies to accurately quantify. But that does not make the opinion of law enforcement or the cdc invalid.

#94 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-25 08:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

93. Don't be obtuse, no one claimed that. It's to reduce accidents. And as anyone reasonable will tell you telling a kid just don't touch it is only asking for more. There is no downside to education there is a downside to not educating then and that is more deaths.

#95 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-25 08:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

You should also note the definition of gangland killings. Few street gangs meet that definition. Furthermore those are hits, not fights.

#96 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-25 08:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

91

Yes why can't they have more common sense like the anti gun nuts. I mean how could they be against cosmetic difference on guns becoming illegal. How could they be against closing a non existent loophole? How Could They Be Against Working Against The Tiniest Factors While Ignoring The problem?

How could they... well you get the point. At least they use reason rather then fear. Logic rather then emotion. Even though they occasionally stoop to those it is not their only argument as it is with the anti gun nuts.

#97 | Posted by salamandagator at 2014-07-25 09:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

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