Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, July 20, 2014

Before reading the list, however, I want to remind you of the caveat that IQ test results are not in any sense the measure of a person's worth. They tend to favor folks who are good at hard "knowledge" things like mathematics and chess, and I think we all know very valuable people who are good at none of these.

Another important point is that there are competing ideas on which tests most accurately measure intelligence. Not everyone takes the same IQ test, and there are enough claims, counterclaims, and disputes in this subject to drive a researcher bananas! All I could do was read everything I could find on it, and rank the candidates based both upon their scores and on who seemed to be the most unanimously agreed upon as worthy (ignoring many "fan clubs" along the way).

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While REINHEITSGEBOT post polls to figure out who is the smartest, I prefer to test the people in question......

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Admin's note: Participants in this discussion must follow the site's moderation policy. Profanity will be filtered. Abusive conduct is not allowed.

Why don't you two get a room?

#1 | Posted by Harry_Powell at 2014-07-20 12:51 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

That makes sense. 80 percent of the world's population are theists. Duh.

#2 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 01:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Interesting read but, I'm not surprised.

#3 | Posted by Daniel at 2014-07-20 01:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

The group with the highest IQs is still, and long has been, Ashkenazi Jews.

#4 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 01:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

But it is good to see the "ignorant theist" meme exposed as a lie in the article, plus, there is this link to the fact that most scientists are not atheists.

www.pewforum.org

#5 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 01:32 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"Steve J. Williams is the author of What Your Atheist Professor Doesn't Know (But Should)"

Theists spend so much time writing books attacking non-theists you would think they are a tiny, oppressed minority.

#6 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

there is this link to the fact that most scientists are not atheists.

I knew you'd latch on to that. I'm sure it will be c&p'd to death in the coming months here.

Only a loose interpretation of the presented data (calling confirmation bias on this one) leads to that conclusion.

#7 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-20 02:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Theists spend so much time writing books attacking non-theists you would think they are a tiny, oppressed minority.

It makes me think their faith isn't as strong as they outwardly claim it is.

Are they writing these books for the stated purpose, or to rationalize their own beliefs?

#8 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-20 02:07 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I have a problem with correlating intelligence and theism. They are totally separate animals. Perhaps most theistic beliefs really do not hold up to detached analytic scrutiny, but for many people the function of religious faith is to give strength and consolation, - not to logically explain the universe.

#9 | Posted by moder8 at 2014-07-20 02:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

An article about random (cherry picked) IQs through out history?

Doesn't get more "accurate" than that.

Might as well had a survey thread.

But theists are weak minded people that need confirmation and approval countlessly throughout their lives.

So, yay! You are SO smart. I mean, the cherry picked stats prove it!!

I'll place this "news" article right next to the other "news" article that told us "Obama is the worst president since WW2".

They are both just as accurate.

#10 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-07-20 02:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

"It makes me think their faith isn't as strong as they outwardly claim it is."

Article is a good case of confirmation bias.

#11 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 02:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

What's the percentage of "theists" to "non-theists" in general?

#12 | Posted by Harry_Powell at 2014-07-20 03:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

"What's the percentage of "theists" to "non-theists" in general?"

In America, about 9 to 1. For scientists, much less, because they have higher IQs than the general public.

" Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006. "

#13 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 03:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

"the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. "

Nobody would argue that Phd holders don't have an average IQ level higher than the general public. Ergo, this survey shows that non-theism correlates with high IQ.

#14 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 03:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

-random (cherry picked) IQs through out history?

No, the top 10 current known IQs in the world, 8 of which are theists, 6 of which are Christian.

-(calling confirmation bias on this one)

Yes, that is what Pew is known for, lol

-confirmation bias

"People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way."

There is no confirmation bias in selecting the top 10 known IQs, they are called, "numbers", nor in interpreting their theism in these cases.

Methinks she dost protest too much.

What's funny is that the largest group of the highest IQs in the world, Ashkenazi Jews, are predominately theists.

Also humorous that most of the people in the top 10 have about twice the IQ of most of the people who are complaining about them being theists.

#15 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 03:37 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

-non-theism correlates with high IQ.

Atheism correlates with academic professor and peer pressure to abstain from the metaphysical in any sense.

#16 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 03:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Finally, the poll of scientists finds that four-in-ten scientists (41%) say they do not believe in God or a higher power..."

So about 60 percent do.

#17 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 03:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

One graph says a thousand words:

www.pewforum.org

#18 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 03:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

So, as was said in #5, most scientists are not atheists.

#19 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 03:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

"peer pressure "

Oh. That explains it. lol

#20 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 03:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Getting one's intellectual wings in academia is not easy for a theist.... nor anyone else with metaphysical bent.

This is pretty much common knowledge to anyone without a Hate agenda.

#21 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 03:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

"This is pretty much common knowledge to anyone without a Hate agenda."

Haters!

lol

#22 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 03:56 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

No, the top 10 current known IQs in the world, 8 of which are theists, 6 of which are Christian.

Currently known = Cherry picked stats.

thanks for agreeing.

#23 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-07-20 03:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

#23

lmao.. the author didn't pick them; they are the highest known IQs.

- lol

Your hatred and ridicule of theists as ignorant is well-known on these pages. At least 8 people with twice your IQ are laughing at you.

#24 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

#18 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

You really think 83% believe in god? I am unsure about that claim. They may go to Church, but 1/2 of the people I know that go to church are oppressed!

#25 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-07-20 04:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

This chart conclusively proves that IQ correlates with non-theism.

www.pewforum.org

#26 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 04:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

This chart conclusively proves that most scientists are not atheists.

It may also prove that being a scientist correlates with high IA. What it does not prove, since it is limited to scientists, is anything about non-scientists.

"IQ correlates with non-theism", in this case, is a vapid generalization of facts not in evidence.

#27 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

"our hatred and ridicule of theists as ignorant is well-known on these pages"

Your hatred and ridicule of non-theists or "neo-atheists" is well-known on these pages.

#28 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 04:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

high IQ

#29 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

they are the highest known IQs.

IQ tests are subjective.

#30 | Posted by ClownShack at 2014-07-20 04:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

#28

Another lie. And a poor definition.

I have never ridiculed atheists, only their fundie counterpoints the neoatheists.

#31 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

American Buddhists, non-theists, have higher IQs than monotheists.

"Ethnically, the members of these Buddhist groups are overwhelmingly white - a matter that has been of considerable concern to Buddhist leaders. Members also tend to be from middle and especially the upper-middle class. But while their income is significantly higher than the national average, the educational level of American Buddhists is right off the charts, and it appears that these Buddhists may well be the most highly educated religious group in the West today. Just as Buddhists are far more highly educated than the average Westerner, they are far more liberal and far more likely to support environmental, antiwar, and human rights causes." (Coleman, p. 20)"

#32 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 04:15 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

-American Buddhists, non-theists

Citing the Devadaha Sutta ('Majjhima Nikaya 101), Hayes remarks that "while the reader is left to conclude that it is attachment rather than God, actions in past lives, fate, type of birth or efforts in this life that is responsible for our experiences of sorrow, no systematic argument is given in an attempt to disprove the existence of God.

en.wikipedia.org

Buddha: not an atheist.

#33 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Buddha: not an atheist."

BS. Spare us the wikipedia nonsense.

#34 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 04:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

From your own link:

"Gautama Buddha rejected the existence of a creator deity,[1][2] refused to endorse many views on creation[3] and stated that questions on the origin of the world are not ultimately useful for ending suffering.[4][5]"

End of story.

#35 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 04:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

lmao... yeah, Hayes on Buddhism in nonsense.

You are a laugh riot.

"...the Buddha Gotama is portrayed not as an atheist who claims to be able to prove God's nonexistence, but rather as a skeptic with respect to other teachers' claims to be able to lead their disciples to the highest good."[26]

Hayes, Richard P., "Principled Atheism in the Buddhist Scholastic Tradition", Journal of Indian Philosophy, 16:1 (1988:Mar) pgs 5-6, 8

same link

#36 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

-End of story.

Not hardly, as much as you would like to change the subject.

#37 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

In case you are as confused as you appear to be, and atheist claims there is no God, an agnostic doesn't know.

#38 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Never heard of this guy Hayes. Who cares what he says? Stephen Batchelor can rip him to shreds.

www.stephenbatchelor.org

#39 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 04:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

Confession of a Buddhist Atheist is a personal account of the author's..... blah, blah, Books for Sale! (page is an ad)

Richard Hayes (born 1945) is an Emeritus professor of Buddhist philosophy at the University of New Mexico.

[1] He received his Ph.D. in religious studies from the University of Toronto in 1982.

Hayes is a noted scholar in the field of Buddhist Sanskrit, specializing in the study of Dharmakīrti and Dignāga.[2]

Hayes was formerly Professor of Sanskrit at McGill University in Canada. He joined the University of New Mexico in the fall of 2003.[

en.wikipedia.org(professor)

Buddha: still not an atheist.

#40 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

#40

Appeal to authority fallacy.

"Gautama Buddha rejected the existence of a creator deity,"

Translation: he was non-theist.

#41 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 04:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Richard Hayes (born 1945) is an Emeritus professor of Buddhist philosophy at the University of New Mexico."

So what? Stephen Batchelor was a Buddhist monk.

#42 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 04:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Appeal to authority fallacy.
"Gautama Buddha rejected the existence of a creator deity,"

lol, yes, you are appealing to a generalized statement and I am appealing to a specific one.

Are you vaping or what?

#43 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hayes is an expert in the original Sanskrit and expresses what he finds there.

Batchelor has experience contemplating his navel.

#44 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

But hey, you are good at highjacking a thread. Kudos.

#45 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

#46

I'll take that as a white flag. Please continue to contemplate Batchelor's navel.

#47 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

"But hey, you are good at highjacking a thread"

The thread is about the correlation of IQ and theism or non-theism. I have proved, with your chart, that IQ correlates with non-theism. Thanks.

#48 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 04:54 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

-I have proved, with your chart, that IQ correlates with non-theism.

No, you have proven no such thing.

"This chart conclusively proves that most scientists are not atheists.

It may also prove that being a scientist correlates with high IQ. What it does not prove, since it is limited to scientists, is anything about non-scientists.

"IQ correlates with non-theism", in this case, is a vapid generalization of facts not in evidence.

#27 | POSTED BY CORKY

#49 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 04:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Are you claiming that scientists have the same average IQ as the general public? Yes or no? The chart shows a positive correlation between IQ and non-theism. Deal with it.

#50 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 05:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

NO, you are taking what the study is showing and saying that then the opposite must be true.

It might or might not be true, but this study does not prove your prejudice.

Sorry about that.

#51 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 05:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

IN example...

wmbriggs.com

#52 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 05:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

#53

As you have not countered the argument, and cannot, it is strong, not weak.

#54 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 05:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

But at least you are back on topic, lol.

#55 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 05:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Batchelor has experience contemplating his navel."

Did you go to church today and pray to the Heavenly Father in the sky?

#56 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 05:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Are you claiming that scientists have the same average IQ as the general public? Yes or no?"

Well. Yes or no?

#57 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 05:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Wait just a second....

I ran out of popcorn...

#58 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-07-20 05:17 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

"Finally, the poll of scientists finds that four-in-ten scientists (41%) say they do not believe in God or a higher power..."

So about 60 percent do.

You're a hack. And a desperate one.

Another seven percent didn't answer.

18% said they believe in some other vague notion of a "high power".

Including them all into that sum most certainly points to you and your usual confirmation bias.

#59 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-20 05:20 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#59

51 percent, then. Happy, PW'd?

#60

Funny how you hit the retort and not what it was retorting. Prejudiced? I think Yes.

#57 As you have not countered the argument, you make up asinine questions.

Of course, I was wrong to say you are back on topic, as that study is a minor point, just a link in the article you don't want to talk about, you know, the one that shows that most super high IQ people are theists.

#62 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 05:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

Funny how you hit the retort and not what it was retorting.

It wasn't retorting anything.

You're as big a fool as nulli is if you think this means anything.

Dare I say, you're opposite sides of the same intellectually shallow coin?

#63 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-20 05:41 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

51 percent, then. Happy, PW'd?

Nope.

Including those with a vague notion is still trying to stack your deck.

Is your faith so weak that you actually give two craps as to how smart believers vs non-believers are?

BTW it's funny to see you claim it's hard to theists to work in academia. As someone in academia for the past ten years or so I can say I've yet to see a theist have problems for their beliefs. Zat used to say it best: Most scientists I know don't care enough to mention it.

#64 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-20 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

-Including those with a vague notion is still trying to stack your deck.

Talk to the Pew people. It is common practice to do as they did, to include "belief in a higher spirit" with God.

#64

What's funny is you don't want to talk about the fact that of the top 10 highest IQs, 8 of them are theists.

-retarded as monotheists.

See what I mean about the Hate?

It radiates.

- intellectually shallow

rofl!

When you can read something other than English, get back to us.

Are you going to take that, Nulli? lmao!

Give Andrea something to watch with her popcorn.

#66 | Posted by Corky at 2014-07-20 05:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Dare I say, you're opposite sides of the same intellectually shallow coin?"

You're an exception to the rule that scientists have higher IQs.

#67 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 05:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

"-retarded as monotheists."

What are you talking about?

#68 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 05:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

You're an exception to the rule that scientists have higher IQs.

#67 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIA

I do find JPW's comments laced with colorful metaphors entertaining, he's like a Redneck, only in the city......

Popcorns done... ok back to our regularly scheduled bout....

#69 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-07-20 06:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I do find JPW's comments laced with colorful metaphors entertaining, he's like a Redneck, only in the city......"

Translation: He's a blithering idiot.

#70 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 06:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

What's funny is you don't want to talk about the fact that of the top 10 highest IQs, 8 of them are theists.

Because I don't care. I have no need to shore up my beliefs with rationalizations and arguments for it.

Why do you?

When you can read something other than English, get back to us.

God you're a tool.

Learning a language is time spent, not intellect.

For instance, you claim to be able to read something other than English (you've never provided any evidence of such, but we'll pass on that point) yet can't seem to ever form an argument for yourself. Always other people's words and snide insistence that others just don't understand it when they disagree with it. So you've taken the time to learn something other than English, but have yet to demonstrate a modicum of intellect.

You're an exception to the rule that scientists have higher IQs.

Ouch. LOL

#72 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-20 08:46 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

I do find JPW's comments laced with colorful metaphors entertaining, he's like a Redneck, only in the city......

LOL in some ways, yes.

Translation: He's a blithering idiot.

Nonsense. You're both insisting your view point/correlation is correct using the same data simplified to justify your already decided position.

The only things that can really be said about the poll (trust me, I'm a doctor) is that scientists, as a group, have less belief in God and less affiliations with established religions than the general public.

#73 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-20 08:50 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Talk to the Pew people. It is common practice to do as they did, to include "belief in a higher spirit" with God.

Except I'm talking to you.

Do you consider someone who claims to be "spiritual" similar to someone who claims a devout belief in God, be it Christian, Jewish or Muslim? [...]

#74 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-20 08:53 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"The only things that can really be said about the poll (trust me, I'm a doctor) is that scientists, as a group, have less belief in God"

Which is exactly what I've been saying. IQ positively correlates with non-theism.

#75 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-07-20 08:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

IQ positively correlates with non-theism.

Or maybe it's training in analytical thinking.

Or a preference for facts/information that is repeatable or testable.

Or maybe them being non-theists lead them to the career path of a scientist because they wanted to figure out how things worked without using sky daddy explanations. [...]

#76 | Posted by jpw at 2014-07-20 09:45 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

i see, you expected them to be atheist, thus your exclamation point.
says more about YOU than ... whoever.

it also sounds like you really don't know any theist. now, maybe, you can discern that they are not evangelicals or baptist, or zealots, etc.?

#77 | Posted by ichiro at 2014-07-20 10:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I have a problem with correlating intelligence and theism."

They ARE separate classes. Faith is by definition not based on knowledge; no man has seen the face of God.
Similarly, what is the correlation between high intelligence and moral integrity? This is a more important consideration; i would argue that the former without the latter is very dangerous, and the latter without the former preferable.

#78 | Posted by kenx at 2014-07-21 04:30 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

People are indoctrinated with religious beliefs from birth. If you really wanted to objectively measure this, you'd have to find a group of adults who haven't been instilled with religious beliefs (or with the idea that a higher power doesn't exist) since childhood. Then introduce them to various religions and see who converts and what their IQs are.

#79 | Posted by Sully at 2014-07-21 12:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Faith is by definition not based on knowledge" #78 | POSTED BY KENX

I would disagree. Faith in God is based on the knowledge that He is by nature true, faithful, and unchangeable by our present relationship and experience with Him coupled with His consistent nature in Scripture in regards to His relationship with others.

Therefore, His promises are certain. For example, I know with absolute certainty Christ will return,(because He declared such) therefore I have faith in Gods promise and prophecy. It's not a situation whereby, "ehhh, well, I don't really know for sure...." no,no....

I know without any doubt.... I do have knowledge of certainty. Faith is based on knowledge. Now, how exactly and when exactly? I don't know nor do I need to know. I only need to know wheat has been revealed, and in that I have absolute certainty in my knowledge.

#80 | Posted by DeadSpin at 2014-07-21 12:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

I think the argument is a fallacy in itself. I have a feeling it is logical thinkers that would question it more than merely intelligent people. i.e. More Spock like...

So in my mind the article is definitely slanted. Also keep in mind that because you believe in God doesn't mean you believe everything in the Holy Book of your religion is true or the word of God.

The arguments about intelligence and religious belief being separate are true. Religion is usually something you are indoctrinated in from a very young age. Besides that even for a tremendous IQ it does not mean you can accept the meaning of life without "God". In some ways those with high IQs may be more likely to fall victim to the thought of the mortal shell and there must be more.

I strongly believe in God and hold to the Christian values I was raised with BUT I do not believe ANY religion has it right. Not only is man fallible, but when man is involved it becomes about power and all religions are controlled by man. I had a personal experience that quit simply left me without doubt.

#81 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2014-07-21 02:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

how many are actually deist?

#82 | Posted by ichiro at 2014-07-21 04:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

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