Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, June 23, 2014

Chris Hedges: The black-clad fighters of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, sweeping a collapsing army and terrified Iraqis before them as they advance toward Baghdad, reflect back to us the ghoulish face of American empire. They are the specters of the hundreds of thousands of people we murdered in our deluded quest to remake the Middle East. They are ghosts from the innumerable roadsides and villages where U.S. soldiers and Marines, jolted by explosions of improvised explosive devices, responded with indiscriminate fire. They are the risen remains of the dismembered Iraqis left behind by blasts of Hellfire and cruise missiles, howitzers, grenade launchers and drone strikes. They are the avengers of the gruesome torture and the sexual debasement that often came with being detained by American troops. They are the final answer to the collective humiliation of an occupied country, the logical outcome of Shock and Awe, the Frankenstein monster stitched together from the body parts we left scattered on the ground. They are what we get for the $4 trillion we wasted on the Iraq War.

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The disintegration of Iraq is irreversible. At best, the Kurds, the Shiites and the Sunnis will carve out antagonistic enclaves. At worst, there will be a protracted civil war. This is what we have bequeathed to Iraq. The spread of our military through the region has inflamed jihadists across the Arab world.

Oil and nothing else.

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"This is what we have bequeathed to Iraq."

Yes and no.

Yes, this was very predictable and yes it was wrong for us to invade.

No, the people of the region are not animals simply responding to stimuli according to their instincts. The do, in fact, make choices. And one choice they have is not to go to war with each other. Just because the dictator is no longer stopping them doesn't mean they must start killing each other. They are still accountable for their own actions.

#1 | Posted by Sully at 2014-06-23 11:06 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

"Just because the dictator is no longer stopping them doesn't mean they must start killing each other. They are still accountable for their own actions"

chances are usually much higher that some people, living for years in an environment of desperation, fear and unparalleled violence; an atmosphere where they have likely seen one or more of their close relatives maimed, killed or psychologically terrorized, have trouble formulating and carrying out clear-headed and beneficial decisions as clearly as someone who posts pithy posits from the relaxation of his or her comfy chair half a hemisphere away.

to not accept that reality is a bit disingenuous.

its easy to say "it was wrong". that only really serves as a disclaimer for someone who really doesn't want to admit the true depth of the wrong done to the iraqi people by our country.

#2 | Posted by NerfHerder at 2014-06-23 12:57 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

"to not accept that reality is a bit disingenuous."

People react to poverty and hardship in all different ways. To pretend that that typical reaction is to want to kill people over a different religion or ethnic group is not reality.

"its easy to say "it was wrong". that only really serves as a disclaimer for someone who really doesn't want to admit the true depth of the wrong done to the iraqi people by our country."

Oh please. Unless you're heading over there to do some in person charity work you can get down off your high horse any time. Also, your absolving Iraqis of responsibility for their own actions does not indicate in any way that you have more of an understandig of just how badly we screwed over Iraq. If you're going to pose as some kind of authority then at least have something to based it on other than pretense.

#3 | Posted by Sully at 2014-06-23 01:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

it's a pleasure to read this article, regardless of what it says:

There is no fight left in us. The war is over. We destroyed Iraq as a unified country. It will never be put back together. We are reduced -- in what must be an act of divine justice decreed by the gods, whom we have discovered to our dismay are Islamic -- to pleading with Iran for military assistance to shield the corrupt and despised U.S. protectorate led by Nouri al-Maliki. We are not, as we thought when we entered Iraq, the omnipotent superpower able in a swift and brutal stroke to bend a people to our will. We are something else. Fools and murderers. Blinded by hubris. Faded relics of the Cold War. And now, in the final act of the play, we are crawling away.

#4 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2014-06-23 01:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh please. Michael Vick just put dogs in a pit. It wasn't his fault the dogs tore each other up.

#5 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 01:38 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Just what did Hillary accomplish as Secretary of State? She certainly failed in Iraq. Not surprising since she supported the war in the first place.

#6 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 01:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Unless you're heading over there to do some in person charity work you can get down off your high horse any time."

i might be high, but my horse most certainly is not.

#7 | Posted by NerfHerder at 2014-06-23 01:47 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

While I understand Hedges' (a Christian liberal) empathy for the people and his disgust with war in general, I would remind him that these factions have been at each other's throats for centuries without our help.

No, we shouldn't have been there in that war, it wasn't necessary. Yes it was a waste of blood and treasure on both sides. No, that does not mean, however, we should hide under our beds from the realities of the world, pretending that every foreign circumstance after Iraq is like Iraq, one in which we should have no part. Each should be considered on it's own merits, with diplomacy as the first option.

I also agree with Bacevich on the "military mind-set" of neocons, and would remind him that although the progressives were, "lied into war", they have always stood for negotiating first instead of asking questions later.

And Hedges is right about the likely results of this debacle:

"The disintegration of Iraq is irreversible. At best, the Kurds, the Shiites and the Sunnis will carve out antagonistic enclaves. At worst, there will be a protracted civil war. This is what we have bequeathed to Iraq. The spread of our military through the region has inflamed jihadists across the Arab world. The resulting conflicts will continue until we end our occupation of the Middle East. The callous slaughter we deliver is no different from the callous slaughter we receive.

Our jihadists -- George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle, Thomas Friedman and Tommy Franks -- who assured us that swift and overwhelming force in Iraq would transform the Middle East into an American outpost of progress, are no less demented than the jihadists approaching Baghdad. These two groups of killers mirror each other. This is what we have spawned. And this is what we deserve."

#8 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-23 01:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Oh please. Michael Vick just put dogs in a pit. It wasn't his fault the dogs tore each other up"

lol, thou modern-era howard hill, as someone who constantly struggles with both accuracy and brevity, i applaud your succinctness and the accuracy of your aim.

#9 | Posted by NerfHerder at 2014-06-23 01:53 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

The dogs were already in the pit, btw.

We just removed the pit master and replaced him with --------.

#10 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-23 01:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh please. Michael Vick just put dogs in a pit. It wasn't his fault the dogs tore each other up.

#5 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 01:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

I didn't say the US deserves no blame.

But I appreciate your analogy because it backs up exactly what I'm saying. In your analogy, the US is Michael Vick. And what are Iraqis: Animals who are bred to fight. Why? Because in order to absolve them of any responsibility for their own behavior you have to look at them as animals.

As I already said in #1, Iraqis are not animals acting on instinct. I specifically said this because among many people there seems to be this not-so-subtle racism where brown people are always just reacting as they must to stimuli provided by others.

In reality, Iraqis are people who are just as responsible for their decisions as anyone else. In reality, people have survived horrific conditions in warzones without becoming self destructively violent themselves.

The US deserves blame for the mess in Iraq now. But if you pretend that Iraqis are not responsible for their own behavior you are simply wrong. Deal with it.

#11 | Posted by Sully at 2014-06-23 02:05 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

"The US deserves blame for the mess in Iraq now. But if you pretend that Iraqis are not responsible for their own behavior you are simply wrong. "

Meaningless. Like saying the rape victim was dressed too provocatively.

#12 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 02:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rape victims invading Kuwait... what a visual.

#13 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-23 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Meaningless. Like saying the rape victim was dressed too provocatively.

#12 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 02:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

No it isn't. That's a horribly misplaced analogy that indicates you don't even understand what we're talking about.

We're talking about Iraqis killing each other. Those doing the killing are reponsible for their actions. You can continue to pretend that they are animals who must behave in a certain way based on the stimuli Americans put in front of them but it will never be true. They are people just like us and they make decisions just like we do.

#14 | Posted by Sully at 2014-06-23 02:21 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

If you blow up stuff, and blow up stuff in a field of landmines, you're the one responsible for the consequences. Deal with it.

#15 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 02:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

", thou modern-era howard hill"

That'll be my next login.

#16 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 02:29 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

"You can continue to pretend that they are animals who must behave in a certain way based on the stimuli Americans put in front of them but it will never be true"

sully certainly is adept at ascribing hyperbolic positions to other posters and then deftly knocking them over, isn't he?

he's my mentor, but in reality he should run a bowling hall.

#17 | Posted by NerfHerder at 2014-06-23 02:31 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Chris Hedges perception and expression are impressive. I think no one has seen truer or expressed as succinctly the situation.

#18 | Posted by FlyUntied at 2014-06-23 02:37 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

""You can continue to pretend that they are animals"

Who is doing that? They aren't animals, they are fanatical theists.

#19 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 02:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Who is doing that? They aren't animals, they are fanatical theists"

i like the michael vick comparison because 'dog' spelled backwards is 'god' and it seems that exploiting one or the other seems to bring out the worst in people.

#20 | Posted by NerfHerder at 2014-06-23 02:44 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Good thing they aren't fanatical atheists like Mao or Pol Pot or Stalin, eh?

They could kill tens of million rather than just tens of thousands like a piker theist.

#21 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-23 02:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

#21

That debate is a retort favorite. Fallacy-ridden, of course.

#22 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 02:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

#22

That retort is a debate favorite. Fasciati obfuscation, lmao.

#23 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-23 02:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Of course, Hedges blames and names the real neocons responsible for lying us into that war.

Puritopians prefer to blame people they like to call neocons.

#24 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-23 02:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

#23
#24

Obsession. It's not just a perfume.

#25 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 02:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

#25

www.youtube.com

#26 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-23 02:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

"sully certainly is adept at ascribing hyperbolic positions to other posters and then deftly knocking them over, isn't he?"

I would think that the idea that Iraqis are personally responsible for their own actions wouldn't be controversial. But here I am having to argue that just like real people Iraqis are responsible for their own actions.

I'm not assigning anyone a position. As far as I know, you can't argue that some people aren't personally responsible for their own behavior while others are unless you premise it on the idea that there is something lesser about the people who can't be held accountable. I'm merely calling out the silly premise behind the position. And I certainly didn't tell Nulli to compare them to animals, he did that on his own.

I'm not pointing this out as a way to deflect guilt either. I'm saying that what the US did to Iraqis is horrible. I just don't think its too much ask that we hold everyone to the same standards instead of grading certain people on a curve as if they are retarded.

#27 | Posted by Sully at 2014-06-23 02:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Instant poll:

What did Secretary Hillary Clinton accomplish in Iraq during her 4 years?

A) Improved situation

B) No impact at all

C) Made the situation worse

#30 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 03:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

A)

- Corky! :-)

#31 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-06-23 03:25 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

"Instant poll:

What did Secretary Hillary Clinton accomplish in Iraq during her 4 years?"

d. she definitely increased her chances of being elected first female jihadi-in-chief of isis

#32 | Posted by NerfHerder at 2014-06-23 03:30 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 2

Corky,

Get real, the USA is the only country in the world that refuses to ban landmines and has spread spent uranium all over Iraq or uses drones to kill from a safe distance to anywhere in the world. We pick only on those who are too small to fight back, like bullies always do.

#33 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-06-23 03:35 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

#33

Yes, I know, we could learn a lot about human rights from the Russians and Chinese. (sighs)

Our imperfections are pretty obvious, almost as obvious as the Puritopians having nothing constructive to say at all.

#34 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-23 04:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Our imperfections are pretty obvious
#34 | Posted by Corky

As is the readiness with which you excuse them.

#35 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-06-23 04:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Our jihadists -- George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle, Thomas Friedman and Tommy Franks -- who assured us that swift and overwhelming force in Iraq would transform the Middle East into an American outpost of progress, are no less demented than the jihadists approaching Baghdad. These two groups of killers mirror each other. This is what we have spawned. And this is what we deserve."

Ummm, can't believe how this guy left out the Israel factor. I do believe we have more than one Zionist in the above list, as well. Remember the good old days when our politicians (GOP or Dem) used to have to prostrate themselves professing love for all things Israel before the all-powerful, Holocaust-peddling, American-Israeli Political Action Committee (AIPAC)? Remember when Bibi proclaimed publically that 9/11 was good for Israel, and got away with it scott-free? Oh, how times change...

#36 | Posted by babyhuey at 2014-06-23 04:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

-As is the readiness with which you excuse them.

I have this odd tendency not to wet my pants at every egregious display of human nature, but rather to look for actual solutions to the problems they create.

As opposed to ideological purists, who seem to never have anything constructive to say.... always tearing down, never building up, and nearly drowning themselves.

#37 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-23 05:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Good thing they aren't fanatical atheists like Mao or Pol Pot or Stalin, eh?
#21 | Posted by Corky

So you're saying Iraq would have been worse if Cheney were an atheist and hadn't taken five draft deferments during the Vietnam War?

Or are you jut being stupid?

#38 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-06-23 05:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

#38

No, I was responding to, "they are fanatical theists.", didn't mention Cheney once.

And, to explain it to the dim of wit, pointing out the recent century of millions killed by atheists, as opposed to theists.

#39 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-23 05:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

And, to explain it to the dim of wit, pointing out the recent century of millions killed by atheists, as opposed to theists.
#39 | Posted by Corky

It's like Hitler doesn't exist in your version of that century. And, it's like Pol Pot and Stalin were driven to kill millions because of their personal atheism, not for larger political motives.

In other words, you are just being stupid.

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-06-23 05:20 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

"pointing out the recent century of millions killed by atheists, as opposed to theists."

That's predictable, given higher, denser, population levels, assuming the retarded assertion that the cause was atheism, rather than political power.

#41 | Posted by nullifidian at 2014-06-23 05:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

Iraq is like Yugoslavia. The region had been at war with itself for years before coming under the rule of Marshal Tito, who put an end to all internal bickering. By force when necessary. The moment he dies, all those ethnic tension rose back to the surface, and the fighting began.

Iraq under Saddam was the same way. Even back in 2003, it didn't take a rocket scientist to understand that if you wanted to get rid of one dictator, you were going to need another to replace him. And Saddam was the kind of man who was easily bought. There really wasn't any reason to replace him, other than the fact that the administration was realizing that the war in Afghanistan was going to be unwinnable without increasing the violence exponentially. I suspect that wasn't something that was deemed politically tenable. Better to strike an unpopular government with no allies and an army that could be easily defeated on a conventional battlefield. Iraq was an easy mark.

#42 | Posted by madbomber at 2014-06-23 10:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

"We pick only on those who are too small to fight back, like bullies always do."

Americans often want blood, but don't want the guilt that comes with drawing it. Yes, it's OK to kill the Taliban, but make sure that nothing else gets damaged. War doesn't work that way. Especially when fighting an adversary who will turn any empathy you may have against you.

#43 | Posted by madbomber at 2014-06-23 10:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

There really wasn't any reason to replace him
#42 | Posted by madbomber

Sure there was.

Beyond testing new weapons systems, redistributing $138B to administration cronies, and timing the war so we'd be balls deep during the 2004 election, you can't ignore that Bush and Cheney are oil men.
www.projectcensored.org

Documents turned over in the summer of 2003 by the Commerce Department as a result of the Sierra Club's and Judicial Watch's Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, concerning the activities of the Cheney Energy Task Force, contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as two charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts." The documents, dated March 2001, also feature maps of Saudi Arabian and United Arab Emirates oilfields, pipelines, refineries and tanker terminals. There are supporting charts with details of the major oil and gas development projects in each country that provide information on the project's costs, capacity, oil company and status or completion date.

Documented plans of occupation and exploitation predating September 11 confirm heightened suspicion that U.S. policy is driven by the dictates of the energy industry.

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-06-24 12:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

That's predictable, given higher, denser, population levels, assuming the retarded assertion that the cause was theism, rather than political power.

#41 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

ft

You do it all the time.

#45 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-24 12:57 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

the administration was realizing that the war in Afghanistan was going to be unwinnable without increasing the violence exponentially. I suspect that wasn't something that was deemed politically tenable. Better to strike an unpopular government with no allies and an army that could be easily defeated on a conventional battlefield. Iraq was an easy mark.
#42 | Posted by madbomber

We could quibble over the details but the plan to invade Iraq was conceived before 9/11, as was the plan to divvy up of Iraq's oil after the invasion.

9/11 made the American public an easy mark; the PNAC "Pearl Harbor Level Event" needed to gin up domestic support for what would otherwise have been an unpopular war.

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-06-24 07:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

The correct term is a "True Believer", the kind of dangerous people willing to die for their cause, like the 19 highjackers. They can be Communist, Moslem, Libertarians or Christian. What they all have in common is a propensity towards violence as a method of enforcing their beliefs on others. Atheism has little to do with it, since it generally constitutes a lack of beliefs.

#47 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-06-24 11:01 AM | Reply | Flag:

It's like Hitler doesn't exist in your version of that century. And, it's like Pol Pot and Stalin were driven to kill millions because of their personal atheism, not for larger political motives.

-----------

The consequence is, that in comparison of what [Attica] then was, there are remaining only the bones of the wasted body, as they may be called, as in the case of small islands, all the richer and softer parts of the soil having fallen away, and the mere skeleton of the land being left. -- Plato, 360 BC

The destruction of the natural world is not the result of global capitalism, industrialisation, "Western civilisation" or any flaw in human institutions. It is a consequence of the evolutionary success of an exceptionally rapacious primate. Throughout all of history and prehistory, human advance has coincided with ecological devastation. -- John Gray, Straw Dogs

...it may be time to recognize the maximum power principle as the fourth thermodynamic law as suggested by Lotka. -- H.T.Odum, 1994

Genocide is as human as art or prayer. -- John Gray

#48 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-06-24 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

#48

Those messages are methodically discombobulated by the fascisti. - posted by Shawn

www.drudge.com

#49 | Posted by Corky at 2014-06-24 11:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

How could a two-mile long column of jihadi-filled white Toyota Land rovers barrel across the Syrian border into Iraq, sending plumes of dust up into the atmosphere, without US spy satellites detecting their whereabouts when those same satellites can read a damn license plate from outer space? And why has the media failed to inquire about this massive Intelligence failure?

If Obama was serious about "inclusive democracy" as he calls it, then he'd withhold the $1.3 billion from his new dictator buddy, Generalissimo al Sisi of Egypt who toppled the democratically-elected government in Cairo, installed himself as top-dog in conspicuously rigged elections, and is now planning to execute 200-plus Egyptians for being members of a party that was legal just a few months ago. Do you think Obama is pestering al-Sisi to be "more inclusive"? No way. He doesn't care how many people are executed in Egypt, anymore than he cares whether al Maliki blocks Sunnis from a spot in the government.

What matters to Obama and his deep-state puppetmasters is regime change, that is, getting rid of a nuisance who hasn't followed Washington's directives. Obama and Co. want to give al Maliki the old heave-ho because he refused to let US troops stay in Iraq past the 2012 deadline and because he's too close to Tehran.

Why isn't Obama worried about a jihadi attack on Baghdad? Think of it: If they did attack Baghdad and the capital fell into jihadi hands, then what? Well, then the Dems would take the blame, they'd get their butts whooped in the upcoming midterms, and Madame Hillary would have to take up needlepoint because her chances of winning the 2014 presidential balloting would drop to zero. So, the fallout would be quite grave. Still, Obama's not sweating it, in fact, he's not the least bit worried. Why?

Could it be that he knows something that we don't know? Could it be that US Intel agents have already made contact with these yahoos and gotten a commitment that they won't attack Baghdad if they are allowed to remain in the predominantly Sunni areas which they already occupy? Did Obama offer the Baathists and Takfiris a quid pro quo which they graciously accepted?

If the game plan is to Balkanize Arab countries wholesale and transform them into powerless fiefdoms overseen by US proconsuls and local warlords, why not go on a regime change spree? You'd have to be a fool to blame al-Maliki for any of this. As brutal as he may be, he's not responsible for the divisions in Iraqi society. That's all Washington's doing. Just as Washington is entirely responsible for the current condition of the country and for the million or so people who were killed in the war. (Mike Whitney)

#50 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-06-24 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

There you go again nutcase. Too highbrow. Think hurt brain...

#51 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-06-24 05:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

"We could quibble over the details but the plan to invade Iraq was conceived before 9/11, as was the plan to divvy up of Iraq's oil after the invasion."

That's true. OPLAN 1003-98. The "-98" indicates the last revision date.

Clinton had actually toyed with the idea of executing the OPLAN at least once during the 1990s, but elected to utilize limited strikes instead.

As for oil, Saddam would have delivered it in gift-wrapped barrels if US would have agreed to help him stay in power. But that's ways less fun as a conspiracy theory.

"They can be Communist, Moslem, Libertarians or Christian."

You'll have to refresh my memory the last time Libertarians went on a rampage and committed mass murder in the name of achieving a desired political end-state.

#52 | Posted by madbomber at 2014-06-24 08:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Madbum,

Their free market BS is killing millions of poor people. They destroyed Central and South America, with staffers from the Chicago School of Economics.

#53 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-06-24 08:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

"As brutal as he may be, he's not responsible for the divisions in Iraqi society. That's all Washington's doing."

The divisions in Iraqi society predate Washington's existence.

Believe it or not, brown people have their own history, thoughts, ideas, likes and dislikes and *gasp* prejudices. They aren't all simply remote controlled by eveil Westerners from thousands of miles away.

#54 | Posted by Sully at 2014-06-25 10:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

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