Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, June 09, 2014

Gifts are pouring in for Jon Meis, the engineering student being credited with stopping a mass shooting at Seattle Pacific University Thursday. The national conversation has often focused on how often gun owners stop mass shootings. An FBI report released in January tracked 104 mass-shooting events from 2000 to 2012. In 16 percent of the cases, the suspect was either subdued (14) or shot (3) by victims before law enforcement arrived. The study does not offer details about how the victims subdued the attacker.

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"The study does not offer details about how the victims subdued the attacker."

They threw their copy of the Constitution at 'em!

Snark aside, interesting report.

#1 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-09 08:32 AM | Reply | Flag:

The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun...or pepper spray, or a fire extinguisher, or a baseball bat, or...

#2 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2014-06-09 08:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

1. In Pearl, Mississippi in 1997, 16-year-old Luke Woodham stabbed and bludgeoned to death his mother at home, then killed two students and injured seven at his high school. As he was leaving the school, he was stopped by Assistant Principal Joel Myrick, who had gone out to get a handgun from his car. I have seen sources that state that Woodham was on the way to Pearl Junior High School to continue shooting, though I couldn't find any contemporaneous news articles that so state.

2. In Edinboro, Pennsylvania in 1998, 14-year-old Andrew Wurst shot and killed a teacher at a school dance, and shot and injured several other students. He had just left the dance hall, carrying his gun -- possibly to attack more people, though the stories that I've seen are unclear -- when he was confronted by the dance hall owner James Strand, who lived next door and kept a shotgun at home. It's not clear whether Wurst was planning to kill others, would have gotten into a gun battle with the police, or would have otherwise killed more people had Strand not stopped him.

3. In Winnemucca, Nevada in 2008, Ernesto Villagomez killed two people and wounded two others in a bar filled with three hundred people. He was then shot and killed by a patron who was carrying a gun (and had a concealed carry license). It's not clear whether Villagomez would have killed more people; the killings were apparently the result of a family feud, and I could see no information on whether Villagomez had more names on his list, nor could one tell whether he would have killed more people in trying to evade capture.

4. In Colorado Springs in 2007, Matthew Murray killed four people at a church. He was then shot several times by Jeanne Assam, a church member, volunteer security guard, and former police officer (she had been dismissed by a police department 10 years before, and to my knowledge hadn't worked as a police officer since). Murray, knocked down and badly wounded, killed himself; it is again not clear whether he would have killed more people had he not been wounded, but my guess is that he would have.

5. The Pearl, Mississippi school shooting was stopped by the vice principal Joel Myrick with a Colt .45, The Appalachian School shooting was stopped by two students with handguns. Both of the above incidents were stopped by the armed citizens threatening the shooter without firing.

Pearl High School

6. Appalacian Law School

Plans to slay everyone in the Muskegon, Michigan, store and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their "gnawing hunger for crack cocaine" fell apart for a band of would-be killers after one of their victims fought back.

7 Muskegon Shooting

The mass church shooting in Colorado Springs was stopped by the shooter being shot by a church member with a CCW permit.

8. New Life Church

The Santa Clara gunshop shooting in 1999 was stopped by an armed citizen after the shooter declared that he was going to kill everyone. Police found a list of intended victims in his car. Only the perpetrator, Richard Gable Stevens was shot.

10. Santa Clara Gunshop

The December, 1991, Aniston, Alabama defense where a CCW holder stopped armed robbers who were herding employees, customers, and his wife into a cooler. He shot both robbers, killing one.

#3 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-09 08:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

11. Aniston Shoney's Shooting

July 13, 2009, in Virginia at the Golden Food Market: The gunman tried to shoot several people, was stopped by a CCW carrier.

12. Golden Food Market Shooting

Just recently, in Early Texas, armed citizen Vic Stacy shot and stopped a deranged man who had just murdered two neighbors and was firing at police with a rifle. Stacy made a very long shot with his revolver, three times as far as the perpetrator was from the police officer, who had an AR-15 type rifle.

Early Texas Peach House Shooting

Of course, when a mass shooting is stopped by an armed citizen, there are not as many victims. This leads to the charge that it would not really have been a "mass shooting".

13 Abraham Dickman had a history of anger against employees of the AT&T store in New York Mills, New York. On May 27th, 2010, he walked into the store with a .357 and a list of six employees. He shot the first employee, but was stopped from further attacks when Donald J. Moore, an off duty police officer who was allowed to carry his own handgun when not on duty, drew and fired his .40 caliber, killing Mr. Dickman before he could fire any more shots.
AT&T store Link
www.wktv.com

14 College Park, GA, May 4, 2009.
Two gunman entered a party and ordered the men separated from the women. Then they started counting bullets. "The other guy asked how many (bullets) he had. He said he had enough," said Bailey.
When one of the assailants prepared to rape a girl, a student was able to access a handgun and engage the two attackers in a firefight, driving one off and killing the other before the thug could rape his girlfriend.
"I think all of us are really cognizant of the fact that we could have all been killed," said Bailey.
College Park Link www.wsbtv.com

15 Another off duty police officer stopped the Trolley Square shooting with his personal handgun. He stopped the killing and contained the shooter until police reinforcements arrived and ended the situation.
en.wikipedia.org

#4 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-09 08:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

16 Winnemucca NV shooting, 25 May, 2008
The shooter, Ernesto Villagomez, entered the Players Bar and Grill and killed two people. He reloaded and was continuing to shoot when a citizen with a concealed carry permit shot him and stopped the killing.
www.kolotv.com

17 Parker Middle School Dance Shooting
14 Year old Andrew Jerome Wurst Killed one person and wounded three others when he was confronted by James Strand who subdued Wurst with a shotgun and held him until police arrived.

en.wikipedia.org

18 Destiny Christian Center Shooting, April 24, 2012
Kiarron Parker rammed his car into another in the church parking lot, got out and attempted to kill multiple church members. He was only able to kill one before a member of the congregation, the nephew of the lady killed, and an off duty police officer, drew his handgun and shot Parker, stopping the killing.
kdvr.com

19 Tyler Courthouse shooting, 2005 While police officers were involved in this shooting before and after Mark Alan Wilson intervened, no more people were killed after he shot the shooter, who had body armor, and who was able to return fire and kill the CCW holder, Wilson.
Tyler Courthouse Shooting Link
en.wikipedia.org

20 Clackamas Mall Shooting
I include this story because it is recent and has been getting some interest on the net. This case is not as clear as the others listed. This incident is similar to the more common defensive uses of guns because the mere display of the gun was enough to defuse the situation. We can never know if the shooter decided to commit suicide because he was confronted by Nick Meli, the CCW holder, as the shooter is dead. However, many mass shooters commit suicide when they know that armed resistance is at hand.
Clackamas Concealed Carry Showdown Link
www.thetruthaboutguns.com

21 Added, from 2012. Consider that the Plymouth shooting incident happened just three months before Sandy Hook. Mark Ktytor, a concealed carry permit holder, stopped a likely mass killing before it reached enough victims to officially quallify. From the citizensvoice.com:
citizensvoice.com

beforeitsnews.com

www.volokh.com

Have plenty more.

#5 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-09 08:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

You know what the gun control crowd says...........'If it would only save one life it would be worth it.'

#6 | Posted by Sniper at 2014-06-09 09:25 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

All your links say to me is that society should work harder to keep guns out of the hands of most folks. None of those CCW crime stopping scenarios would even exist if it wasn't so easy for anyone to get a gun.

#7 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2014-06-09 09:28 AM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

Zack,

Yes there are MANY cases where people have defended themselves. But for every 1 on your List there are 8 or 9 where they didn't. That was the point of the article I do believe...

#8 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2014-06-09 09:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

Don't look for Professional Journalists at NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC, or CNN, to cover any stories about Good Guy with Gun stops Bad Guy with Gun,,,

The Liberal Dimocrat loving MSM does NOT cover Actual News stories that do not fit Obama's Agenda,,,

In fact the Liberal media still has not covered any of these stories in the proper detail they deserve,,,

Fast and Loose
Benghazi
I.R.S
Wide Open Boarders
,,,

,,,

#9 | Posted by ATaxpayer at 2014-06-09 09:38 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

They threw their copy of the Constitution at 'em!
Snark aside, interesting report.

#1 | POSTED BY PRAGMATIST

Reading between the lines, seems the obvious answer is to allow more open and concealed carry. Or... OR get to the root of the problem of why there are mass killings (not shootings) in this country.

#10 | Posted by LastAmerican at 2014-06-09 09:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

Our country has a mental health problem disguised as a gun problem.

#11 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-09 10:18 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

10: I agree with the second assertion. RE the first, I'm not a fan of the "An armed society is a polite society" theory. But this is one of those issues I don't argue. I lurk, listen, and sometimes learn. : )

#12 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-09 10:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

None of those CCW crime stopping scenarios would even exist if it wasn't so easy for anyone to get a gun.

#7 | Posted by TFDNihilist
HAHHAHA You can completely ban the gun and you will drop gun deaths a little, yet criminals will still have access to them their their illegal market much in the same is the drug market. Plenty of drugs are illegal and banned, yet anyone with 20 bucks can get nearly anything in ten mins. Also if i want to commit mass murder and cant get a gun or a big blade, I have a car I can plow over 20 people in a very short period of time.

"The media insist that crime is the major concern of the American public today. In this connection they generally push the point that a disarmed society would be a crime-free society. They will not accept the truth that if you take all the guns off the street you still will have a crime problem, whereas if you take the criminals off the street you cannot have a gun problem." Jeff Cooper

#13 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-09 10:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

Personally, I stop about 3 every week.

But to the untrained eye, it just seems like I'm randomly picking a guy to beat the crap out of. I can always tell if they've got shifty eyes, though. I know what they're planning to do.

I'm a hero. Not a bully.

#14 | Posted by WhiteDevil at 2014-06-09 10:25 AM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 2

#12 | Posted by pragmatist

It seems that we are under siege by young men who have a reluctance to enter adulthood, probably because of the doldrums that adulthood promises. Super violent games and movies provide so much more of a better life.

#15 | Posted by LastAmerican at 2014-06-09 10:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

#9 | Posted by ATaxpayer

Drinking the Fox/Rush kool-aid is not a "cure" or a "solution" to the liberal view. It is simply taking the polar opposite and mostly far more extreme view. The world is Grey - not black and white.

The actual answer is far more in the middle:

IRS - Enough already... It has already been illustrated they were doing the same thing to 'Liberal' groups as well as Teahadists. It just so happens there were FAR more anti-tax Teahadists trying to get tax free status. IMHO most of them are a dodge - doing the absolute minimum to garner the status and that is well documented. Things could have been handled better but I do believe that I want my government making sure all applicants for Tax Free status truly and legitimately qualify.

Benghazi - Mountain/Mole hill situation and the drink the kool-aid crew is all over it. Taking advantage of the public's inability to understand that the view is never crystal clear and it isn't instant like on TV.

Fast and Furious - Totally agree this was a totally botched and ill conceived operation.

Wide Open BORDERS - Not sure what your point is. A fence won't keep people out. Immigration needs to be addressed and Republican's won't touch it. Why? Even Shrub couldn't get them to do anything about it.
Why? Because instead of working on something that works we have grand standing and extreme partisanship playing out on your favorite media outlets - in particular coming from the right. My way or the highway doesn't work in responsible governing. The Republicans and in particular the Tea Party have caused a situation in which we have a government that is almost totally dysfunctional. Certainly the President and Democrats have taken stands as well - stands do sometimes need to be taken. BUT at this time for the most part I feel that Republican's are simply wasting time and money. We can't seem to do anything other than name a federal building with any sort of consensus.

#16 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2014-06-09 10:52 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

#13 | Posted by zack991

You are absolutely correct.
No one is denying that over decades the death merchants have solidified their hold on American society and it is way too late to stop it.
You and the criminals you decry are two sides of the same coin.

#17 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2014-06-09 11:28 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

The underlying idea behind gun banning is that if the ban actually imposed planet wide, and kept going a few decades, even 'criminals' won't be able to get guns so easily.

Sane anti-gun folk acknowledge that thugs like common gang members WILL be able to get guns, although the random guy who 'snaps' probably won't, at least not quickly.

But none of that prevents the random guy who 'snaps' from using his car. Or loading his car with household chemicals positioned so they spill in a wreck..... etc.

....so....

NO gun ban, even one planet wide and kept up for decades, will stop gang members from having guns.

And no gun ban, even one planet wide and kept up for decades, will stop mass killings. Only the weapons and methods would change.

#18 | Posted by USAF242 at 2014-06-09 04:39 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

You are absolutely correct.
No one is denying that over decades the death merchants have solidified their hold on American society and it is way too late to stop it.
You and the criminals you decry are two sides of the same coin.

#17 | Posted by TFDNihilist

We certainly need to fix our mental health system where if a person is found to be mentally unstable, that a simple warrant from a Judge to have police search his/her home and locate any weapons, not just firearms to be confiscated till medical personally say he/she is no longer a danger. Also any court ruling them temporary banned or banned for life from owning any weapon should be uploaded to the NIC system within 24 hours. Also 100% prosecute anyone who comes up as not being allowed to own a from the background check. The DOJ only has gone after 4% of those felons, that number should be 100% The excuse we have no money to fund such projects is BS, then why can we afford to give BILLIONS to other nations? Also the media as a whole feeds these crazy's dream of being remembered, and the more blood they shed the more the media pushes it. A simple blackout on their names or photos and refusal to make a circus out of it would go a long way to help curb these copy cats. Another problem our society enjoys the violence they see as cool or neat and help feed these crazy's as well. Society has too change if we ever have a hope to limit these mass murders Friday night TV specials. Simply banning X, Y or Z does nothing to address the problem, it just pushes the blame everywhere else but the problem.

#19 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-09 11:19 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Meis wasn't a bystander he was security.

#20 | Posted by Tor at 2014-06-09 11:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

Another one of Ronnie brain dead Raygunz failures that has come back to haunt the US.

He destroyed the mental health care system and the crazies have come home to roost

#21 | Posted by drewl at 2014-06-10 03:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

The purpose of a CC permit is not to stop a mass shooting. It's for personal defense.

Anti-gun wackos assume a CC holder is going to stand there and say "draw" like some cowboy western movie. That's not what is taught. They are instructed to get out of Dodge as the first defense. A weapon should only be drawn if your life is at risk.

We see what happened recently in Vegas. The CC holder tried to play cop and lost. His call. At least he tried, but he died. We don't know his motivation, but perhaps he was trying to save lives. Honorable, but in this case, not a good move for him personally. He may well have saved someone else though. We don't know.

Implied in this posting is that we don't need CC because it does not stop mass shootings. Take away all possibility of anyone firing back because it doesn't work. Well it worked this time. Thank goodness for that.

#22 | Posted by sames1 at 2014-06-10 04:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

The problem with any CCW holder (even a retired cop) becoming involved as first responder in the confusion of any such event, is that they can quickly become a target when law enforcement finally arrives.

Shoot first and ask questions later seems to be the current philosophy of many forces, maybe because there are few serious repercussions.

Americans need to say the hell with allegiance to the political Parties. We need government of and for the people. Neither Party works for us.

#23 | Posted by Robson at 2014-06-10 07:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

The purpose of a CC permit is not to stop a mass shooting. It's for personal defense.

#22 | Posted by sames1 at 2014

Ah. So there's nothing pro-social about it at all? Pretty much what I was thinking. Better never to even draw the gun and expose yourself as a target.

#24 | Posted by Zed at 2014-06-10 08:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

The problem with any CCW holder (even a retired cop) becoming involved as first responder in the confusion of any such event, is that they can quickly become a target when law enforcement finally arrives.

#23 | POSTED BY ROBSON AT 2014-06-10 07:47 PM | FLAG:

How many times has a CHL holder been shot by police after being the first responder to an incident? I tried google, all it gave me were Sandy Hook links talking about police as first responders.

#25 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2014-06-10 08:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The purpose of a CC permit is not to stop a mass shooting. It's for personal defense.
#22 | Posted by sames1"

So there's nothing pro-social about it at all?
#24 | Posted by Zed

No. What about an individual right is "pro-social" or not?

#26 | Posted by et_al at 2014-06-11 12:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

There is an opinion which states that our social contract requires all who have the means to enforce the law to do so. One holds a thief at gun point awaiting the police, because that is his shared responsibility to his neighbors and his fellow citizens. One is allowed to kill any one involved in a violent crime, because that is the expectation of a citizen. I know for a fact that any homicide that results from the commission of a felony here in Texas is the fault of the perpetrator, not the people who try and stop him. The principal in law is called individual sovereignty. This means that you are responsible for what you do and what you allow to happen around you. We put a man in prison for life with out parole because he do not try and stop a crime. Remember Jasper?

#27 | Posted by docnjo at 2014-06-11 01:43 AM | Reply | Flag:

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