Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Saturday, June 07, 2014

President Barack Obama will take executive actions on Monday to ease the burden of college loan debt for potentially millions of Americans. Obama's main action will be to expand on a 2010 law that capped borrowers' repayments at 10 percent of their monthly income. The intent is to extend such relief to an estimated 5 million people with older loans who are currently ineligible, those who got loans before October 2007 or stopped borrowing by October 2011. Average tuition at four-year public colleges has more than tripled over the past three decades, according to the administration, and 71 percent of those graduating with a bachelor's degree carry debt that averages $29,400.

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Admin's note: Participants in this discussion must follow the site's moderation policy. Profanity will be filtered. Abusive conduct is not allowed.

I had a thought today that this country will recover from Obama's rule.It really made me relax and feel better

#1 | Posted by blake914 at 2014-06-07 08:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

"cap borrowers repayments at 10 percent of their monthly income."

Sounds good.

#2 | Posted by Tor at 2014-06-07 09:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

That or people be held responsible for loans they agreed too pay back and the rates they agreed to pay. If you are dumb enough to take a 80K loan out for a degree that gets you a job that pays nothing close to be able to pay it back or get a job at all. That is the students fault. More and more young people are learning they don't have to take responsibility for piss poor choices.

#3 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-07 10:27 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

That or people be held responsible...

I'm so sick of righties slandering the concept of responsibility.

They're just as prone as anyone else to passing the buck and shirking responsibility.

Just ask them if they supported Bush. It seems no one did if you listen to them nowadays.

#4 | Posted by jpw at 2014-06-08 01:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

O please blame bush again, o please. If you are a student and you are looking to get a degree for a certain career, don't you think it would be a smart idea to see what demand there is for people with that degree to begin with. How much does a job like that pay on average compared to the cost of getting the degree. That you as an adult should be smart enough to figure it out that a 100 thousand dollars spent on a degree that on average only makes you at best 15 dollars a hour is a really dumb idea. That you as an adult are responsible for any contracting agreement to payback a loan for X amount of dollars with X amount of interest. Only progressives believe in a world without responsibility were a student can run up massive studentloans and not be held accountable for what they agreed to and signed on the X to get the loan in the first place.

#5 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-08 02:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

O please blame bush again, o please.

I didn't blame Bush you [...]ing retard.

I pointed out the glaring example by which those who opine most readily about personal responsibility shirk it when it becomes convenient or uncomfortable.

W didn't butt [...] us for two terms because he lacked morons willing to vote for him. Even if you pulled the lever for him as a lesser of two evils sort of option you still enabled the continuation of his policies.

I guess I'm old fashioned in that I expect enough intellectual honest from y'all to acknowledge that.

If you are a student and you are looking to get a degree for a certain career, don't you think it would be a smart idea to see what demand there is for people with that degree to begin with. How much does a job like that pay on average compared to the cost of getting the degree.

C'mon. They're starry eyed kids who've been fed bull[...] their entire life. If you claim to have held the same positions you do now when you were that age then I'll gladly call you a lying POS.

that a 100 thousand dollars spent on a degree that on average only makes you at best 15 dollars a hour is a really dumb idea.

Where are you getting these numbers from? Me thinks you're making crap up just to support your biased, poorly thought out opinion.

That you as an adult are responsible for any contracting agreement to payback a loan for X amount of dollars with X amount of interest.

Except it's debt you bought into as a newly minted "adult" (scare quotes because although 18 is legally an adult, it's far from it mentally).

And you bought into it because in order to move up in life it's a necessary expenditure.

Unfortunately, that fact has been taken advantage of by universities that appear more and more like businesses instead of institutions of higher education.

A personal anecdote on this topic is my most recent trip to my alma mater revealing the complete bulldozing of a rare ecosystem that the university had bragged up during my years there for the expansion of what amounts to more of a business venture yielding patents than an educational endeavor. Oh, and a traffic circle too that made the intersection far more of a mess than a plain old stop light.

Only progressives believe in a world without responsibility were a student can run up massive studentloans and not be held accountable for what they agreed to and signed on the X to get the loan in the first place.

Do you have student loans?

I'm holding off on firing salvos into this pile of [...] line until I get your answer.

#6 | Posted by jpw at 2014-06-08 03:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yes I have a student loan. Guess what, I was not a ------- and I didn't spend more on my degree then what it was worth. I did this new thing called research on the career field I was interested in. Plus I read my student loan contract before I signed the damn thing.

#7 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-08 03:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

Just because you are new to the realitys of the real world and are way to trusting of college career counselors, does not make you any less responsible for the loans you agreed to pay for with x amount of interest. No one put a gun to your head and made you sign on the dotted line. My brother spent 86 grand on a electrical engineering degree and found out the hard way all the bs he was pump up by his career counselor for that field was over blown. Now he has a student loan bill that is more then my house payment. Now I will certainly agree there are a ton of bs extra class that have nothing to do with the core courses other then to pad the wallets of the university and meet certain nonsense requirments for that program to qualify as a degree programs

#8 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-08 04:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

Guess what, I was not a ------- and I didn't spend more on my degree then what it was worth. I did this new thing called research on the career field I was interested in. Plus I read my student loan contract before I signed the damn thing.

This was all at 18 years old and without the guidance of an adult wiser in the ways of the world?

No one put a gun to your head and made you sign on the dotted line.

Sure.

But our society sure as hell force feeds the necessity of a degree and universities have no incentive to not charge you the max number of dollars for the least amount of benefit.

This is far more complex a situation than you're making it out to be.

My brother spent 86 grand on a electrical engineering degree and found out the hard way all the bs he was pump up by his career counselor for that field was over blown. Now he has a student loan bill that is more then my house payment.

You must have an unimpressive house or live in Detroit...

That's around double my student loan debt. Doubling my monthly payment is still less than what I was paying for my mortgage a few years ago.

#9 | Posted by jpw at 2014-06-08 04:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

Only progressives believe in a world without responsibility were a student can run up massive studentloans and not be held accountable for what they agreed to and signed on the X to get the loan in the first place.

A. there is no getting out of student loan debt. Not even bankruptcy clears it from your record and you will pay it back even if it means garnishing of wages and confiscation of tax returns.

B. when you sign for the loan you're not locking in a payment time or plan. This is chosen when you exit school and your loans leave the deferment period. One can choose from a variety of options for repayment, but there is not an option for not repaying.

So take your BS dig on "progressives" and shove it.

There's also the issue of addressing an unfortunate reality-we, as in our society, has a HUGE outstanding level of debt tied into student loans. Acknowledging the negative effects of that reality is not a "progressive" thing, nor should it be a political thing. Like it or not this is a problem that affects damn near all of us, so pissing and moaning about 'kids these days' is nothing more than being a bitter grinch.

#10 | Posted by jpw at 2014-06-08 04:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

I got a great deal on my first home when the over blown bubble in the housing market went. It is certainly no palance but it is more then enough for me in the good part of town and I did not over spend or over pay for it. The bank wanted it sold and I was able to get it for a low price. I certainly agree with you that colleges are pushed way over the top as a must for a person to advance anywhere in life. Some of the richest people in the world dropped out of school and have no degree and still do very well. I had adult help point a few things out for me, but in the end it was my choice. Parents should do their best to guied their kids if they are around. Certainly colleges and society is more than happy to not do their part when it helps to guiding young people into the realitys of getting massive school loans for degrees that are as the usefulness of toilet paper. Yet to a lot of young people it is simple a time to party, I was encouraged to not immediately go right into college and to experience the world and take a few years to decide what I really enjoy and want to do. These kids are pushed right into college and told to make seriously expensive choices on a whim and biggest problems as a society the results of rushing into it is never brought up or ever really explained well or at all.

#11 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-08 05:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

Banks borrow from the Fed at close to zero interest and loan money to students at 8%. Why can't the students borrow at close to zero and tell the banks to go to hell?
The whole idea that students should have to borrow money to buy an education is sick and completely opposite of what a nation that wants to have an educated population would be doing. We will soon make education a luxury only the rich can afford.
Oh wait, that's the whole idea isn't it?

#12 | Posted by danni at 2014-06-08 08:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

We still have political leaders telling children college is their ticket to a decent career, entrance to the vanishing middle class. Meanwhile titans of industry, the same ones complaining that regulating coal emissions is a job killer, have deliberately sent manufacturing jobs overseas, to increase their wealth while diminishing our nations wealth by reducing its productivity and tax base. Most Conservatives are blind to the irony and hypocrisy of the little club they aspire to join.

The best Bank in the USA is the Bank of North Dakota, unscathed by the 2008 meltdown, returning profits of 17-26% to the citizens of North Dakota. There is no reason to let a bunch of greedy for profit Bankers drive our economy into the ground while lining their own pockets through gambling and fraud in a State sanctioned monopoly of the money supply. There is no reason why the cost of college should be so high. Only in America, 50% of my paltry tuition went to the athletic department where the football coach earns more than the University President. There is no reason to let college administrators and Bankers run off with so much money while they reconfigure Universities to be taught by Assistant Professors and graduate students on starvation wages with no chance of tenure or retirement security.

Then along comes the rightie tighties to blame the victims of these financial scams, just like they blamed 80 year old senile borrowers for bank crimes of fraud.

At the same time we will always need fewer college graduates than workers. One man designed the Golden Gate Bridge, 5-10 engineers and 25-50 designers detailed all the drawings and hundreds of people smelted and rolled the steel and put the whole thing together.
There will always be more money in manufacturing and construction. There is a natural balance of 1-10-100 for pure science, detailed planning and production demands.

The offshoring of manufacturing and H-1B program has reduced the need for STEM jobs and wages in this country. Blame our leaders, in Politics and Industry, not the students. Give Obama credit for addressing problems which Conservatives turn a blind eye to.

#13 | Posted by nutcase at 2014-06-08 09:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

"My brother spent 86 grand on a electrical engineering degree and found out the hard way all the bs he was pump up by his career counselor for that field was over blown."

So you are saying Electrical Engineering is a bad career choice?

#14 | Posted by REDIAL at 2014-06-08 10:29 AM | Reply | Flag:

Any engineering degree seems like a sound decision. Same with anything medical or computer related.

Business degrees are a dime a dozen, but better than political science.

#15 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-06-08 10:43 AM | Reply | Flag:

Obama's attempting to ease student debt? Let's impeach him.

#16 | Posted by Zed at 2014-06-08 10:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

Not sure why your brother would have spent 86k on an EE degree. Having spent 86k on one though I find it hard to believe that he is having issues finding work. EE is one of the best degrees out there right now especially if he spend some of that 86k on some computer electives.

Nutcase makes a good point. Bankers get the money at almost 0% from the fed. They then loan it out at 6.8% it is a risk free loan for them, as was pointed out you will pay your college loan back. You can't get rid of it in bankruptcy and the bank can and will have the government garnish your wages or take it from your tax return. So the banks are making a ton of money and it can't even be justified as risk.

Why on earth is it allowed?

#17 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-08 11:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

So you are saying Electrical Engineering is a bad career choice?

#14 | Posted by REDIAL
Not where he lives, he is working to find work in another state. The market is flooded in many states with people that have the same degree and only so many openings.

#18 | Posted by zack991 at 2014-06-08 11:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

I got a great deal on my first home when the over blown bubble in the housing market went. It is certainly no palance but it is more then enough for me in the good part of town and I did not over spend or over pay for it. The bank wanted it sold and I was able to get it for a low price.

Sounds like you got lucky. Good deal.

As for the rest of your post, I agree completely. I only applied to two schools, an expensive private school and a state school. I ended up going to the state school because even though the private school gave me a scholarship worth more than it cost per year at the state school, I would still have paid about double what I paid at the state school out of pocket. So it is possible for an 18 year old to have foresight. However, loans are a necessity for the vast majority of kids going to college and the amount needed is grossly inflated compared to the benefits the university is providing.

Most of my issues with it though have only become evident after finishing school and starting the process. I wouldn't change much as it needed to be done, I just think there was far too much smoke being blown by people who should have been more honest.

Finally, my apologies for my posts last night. They were over the top and unnecessarily rude.

#19 | Posted by jpw at 2014-06-08 01:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

$29,400 sounds pretty cheap. If my local university parking lot is any indication, most of them have no problem spending that much on a new car before graduation.

#20 | Posted by bogey1355 at 2014-06-08 03:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Obama's attempting to ease student debt? Let's impeach him.
#16 | POSTED BY ZED

ZED have you ever once in your posts considered where the money for your fantastic idea comes from?

#21 | Posted by paneocon at 2014-06-08 03:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Student loan money comes from the same place all loan money comes from right out of the bankers inkwell PA.

See nutcase and my posts. The banks create it out of thin air the Fed covers them and they charge 6.8% interest on a risk free investment. If they dropped it to 1% they would still make money.

#22 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-08 04:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Not where he lives, he is working to find work in another state. The market is flooded in many states with people that have the same degree and only so many openings."

Irony alert. One of the most common conservative mantras is "Go where the jobs are." So he should do that. He has no ties where he is, right? I mean, he's just out of school...

Anyway, the poster who said this is much more complex than you make it was spot-on. It is not simply the student's fault.

#23 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-08 04:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

'm so sick of righties slandering the concept of responsibility.

They're just as prone as anyone else to passing the buck and shirking responsibility.

Just ask them if they supported Bush. It seems no one did if you listen to them nowadays.

#4 | Posted by jpw at 2014-06-08 01

WHAT THA ??? you CAN"T be serious......"concept of responsibility" ??

aha ha ha ..FUNNIEST LINE OF THE WEEK >!!!!

please..the party of sandra fluke ??? and one baby killer after another....oh MAN that was a good laugh..

#24 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2014-06-08 05:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

but there's a headline fail here...

should read...HANG RIGHT THERE TAX PAYERS....

OBAMA"S about to pay another visit to your wallet..

#25 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2014-06-08 05:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

OBAMA"S about to pay another visit to your wallet..

Didn't read it, no debt is being forgiven.

Even if it was the bankers make a fortune off a NO RISK investment on top of the bailout Bush and Obama gave them if debt was forgiven the bankers should take the hit not the tax payers.

Interest is supposed to represent risk but there is no risk to student loans. They are literally guaranteed by law to be repaid. I get so tired of the Wall St. whores siphoning off the wealth of the nation while both parties help them do it and cheerleaders like AFK and Zack support them under the guise of personal responsibility.

#26 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-08 05:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

24: Baby killers. Nah, Afk never uses over the top rhetoric. Never. Ever. EVER.

#27 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-08 06:02 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

That you as an adult are responsible for any contracting agreement to payback a loan for X amount of dollars with X amount of interest. *

*Billionaires, corporations and elected Republicans exempt (c) Conservitards of America LLC**

**Life Long Codependents

#28 | Posted by northguy3 at 2014-06-08 10:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

I had a thought today
#1 | Posted by blake914

Keep it safe. Someday it'll be worth a lot, rare as it is.

#29 | Posted by northguy3 at 2014-06-08 10:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

There's also the issue of addressing an unfortunate reality-we, as in our society, has a HUGE outstanding level of debt tied into student loans. Acknowledging the negative effects of that reality is not a "progressive" thing, nor should it be a political thing. Like it or not this is a problem that affects damn near all of us, so pissing and moaning about 'kids these days' is nothing more than being a bitter grinch.
#10 | POSTED BY JPW

While I agree that the HUGE outstanding debt level is a problem. I do tie it to the "progressive" idea that everyone should have a college education. The outcome of that thinking has lead to people taking on more debt than their degree is worth.

To some level that is their fault and at another its the promotion of the college will solve all your problems.

IMO, there are many alternatives to going to college that will reap better ROI.

#30 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-06-08 10:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Finally, my apologies for my posts last night. They were over the top and unnecessarily rude.

#19 | POSTED BY JPW

I have noticed you are pretty angry in general, IMO. The way we behave on line with anonymity, is pretty close to a projection of our inner self.

"Here the Internet assists in the protective because of its anonymity; disowned aspects of self are easily projected onto personas where the violent, abusive self can function without restriction."
books.google.com

#31 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-06-08 10:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

24: Baby killers. Nah, Afk never uses over the top rhetoric. Never. Ever. EVER.

#27 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-08 0

context....the poster said we were the party of no responsibility which is a complete joke....baby killing and sandra fluke are perfect examples that the democrats are clearly on top here...

#32 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2014-06-08 11:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

That you as an adult are responsible for any contracting agreement to payback a loan for X amount of dollars with X amount of interest. *

*Billionaires, corporations and elected Republicans exempt (c) Conservitards of America LLC**

**Life Long Codependents

#28 | Posted by northguy3 at 2

typical response....it's someone else's fault.....first of all, anyone knows that dems get as much if not more from billionaires and corporations....even if you don't which I think you do, but you ignore it on purpose.

take a vote...many more conservatives would vote to make students pay their own way.....than liberals and thier gimme gimme gimme party !

#33 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2014-06-08 11:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

While I agree that the HUGE outstanding debt level is a problem. I do tie it to the "progressive" idea that everyone should have a college education.

That is not a progressive idea. That is a reality based idea. Without a diploma you are locked out of jobs even ones that do not need it. I dropped out when my daughter was born early. Because I am smart and hard working I went on to become one of the top in the field but some places wouldn't hire me because I didn't have a degree. They would become clients of the company I worked for just to have access to my advice but would not hire me.

The times are changing as specialist with trade degrees are becoming more valued again but we are not there yet. Partly because trade degrees can vary so much in quality and value it is hard for an employer to trust them.

#34 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-08 11:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

nterest is supposed to represent risk but there is no risk to student loans. They are literally guaranteed by law to be repaid. I get so tired of the Wall St. whores siphoning off the wealth of the nation while both parties help them do it and cheerleaders like AFK and Zack support them under the guise of personal responsibility.

#26 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-

nothing anyone says here will make a difference....if obama wants tax payers to pay these loans off...thus making millions more guaranteed votes for his party and liberalism.....

and all the lawbreaking president has to do, apparently, is what ever he wants to....separation of powers and the constitution be damned...
but much worse than this LIAR doing that is the people here and around the country who think it's a good idea..

#35 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2014-06-08 11:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

The way we behave on line with anonymity, is pretty close to a projection of our inner self.

It is more in line with the Ego, Id, Superego concept. The anonymity of the internet removes the Superego to regulate behavior. Letting the Id run wild.

Yes it is our innermost person but saying that the Id is the person is like saying that a tall guy is what I am. Yes it is true but in a limited sense.

#36 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-08 11:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

when I say nothing here any one says will make a difference Im talking about rather...not matter what law or process or the like anyone here quotes...if this lawless lying president decides he's going to STEAL money from taxpayers to pay off for these votes...HE WILL and so far he can get away with it...

#37 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2014-06-08 11:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

The answer is open am actual federal bank offering loans based on real risk and let the borrowers refinance. Then no one would lose money. Banks would lose a source of free money, but hey they should have to work for their money too just like the rest of the world.

#38 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-08 11:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

again...my point...tao...no matter how logical or legal your suggestion is, this president doesn't have to go by anything other than that pen and phone that he had....and NO DEMOCRAT and no gop OLD fart will even challenge him.............yet.

#39 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2014-06-08 11:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

I do tie it to the "progressive" idea that everyone should have a college education. The outcome of that thinking has lead to people taking on more debt than their degree is worth.

As with zack, you're oversimplifying this to the point of absurdity.

I have noticed you are pretty angry in general, IMO. The way we behave on line with anonymity, is pretty close to a projection of our inner self.

Thanks for the analysis.

#40 | Posted by jpw at 2014-06-09 12:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

The only way any financial institution would agree to lend a history major thirty grand to be a barrista at Starbucks in five years, is if there is a government guarantee of some kind.

Get rid of those, and you'll get rid of reckless lending and borrowing on both sides. Easy to beat up on the greedy banks, or the moron borrowers who sign up for Lesbian Poetry before getting a job waiting tables at Papa Johns. But until we change the reality of government-guaranteed loans, expect stupid to keep rolling along, with interest.

#41 | Posted by WhiteDevil at 2014-06-09 01:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

zack991

I understand some of what you are saying, but it is very difficult to predict how the market for a particular job will change 4 years from now. Even if an industry is booming, it may not be as lucrative by the time 4 or 5 years of studying has finished.

#42 | Posted by mariosanchez at 2014-06-09 02:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

I think that the internet has changed the information dynamic in such a way that teh entire education system has become an intellectual prison, rather than a place for thought. The knowledge that has been kept within the ivory towers would now be easily accessible to the masses if for not for intellectual monopoly laws that are designed to keep the serfs working at the treadmills.

#43 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-06-09 07:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

43: Maybe, but I maintain that there's still no substitute for exploration WITH others and WITH the guidance/facilitation of an expert in the field. And I have no idea what you mean by intellectual prison, other than that you're one of the more paranoid and angry anti-everything posters on this site. The ivory tower is what it has always been, and K-12 is flawed but there is thinking and even freedom of thought going on. How do I know? My students are capable of thought and I welcome challenge. That's one. There are two other teachers I know of on this site who would say the same. The limitations come from family more than from "the system." They also come from society, in that we disdain intellectual curiosity and eschew reading and thinking.

#44 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-09 08:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

Paranoid = reality based thinking.

angry = not stupid.

The limitations are designed to keep the sheeple ignorant. No good reason that educators have to be locked up like they are anymore.

#45 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-06-09 09:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

That or people be held responsible...
I'm so sick of righties slandering the concept of responsibility.
They're just as prone as anyone else to passing the buck and shirking responsibility.
#4 | POSTED BY JPW

JPW, most Left-wingers say that students need to pay their bills and be responsible.

I've been casually talking to Left wingers about the enormous debt problem and they all say that forgiving the debt completely would not be the answer, but to help somehow. They all believe that the student must pay back the debt.

The irresponsibility solely lies with the higher learning institutions raising their tuition and fees. What scam -- it's a crime!!!

This is really unfair to students trying to get an education and are sucked in by the easy way to get money thinking that they will be able to pay it back later. It's a SCAM!!!! It's unfair to taxpayers having to take on the risk and eventually having to settle with the student for less pay back. All the while, the Universities continue to charge far more than the education is worth! That's a scam.

I would support a switch in the strategy in how we educate our young people. I would support decreasing the money available for borrowing. This seems cruel, but I would predict that this would increase State level stipends and scholarships and more private scholarships. Overall, it would the out of control increases in tuition.

#46 | Posted by LastAmerican at 2014-06-09 10:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

"The limitations are designed to keep the sheeple ignorant."

What limitations specifically?

"No good reason that educators have to be locked up like they are anymore."

Huh?

As for "not stupid," please, anger is no indication of intelligence.

And "reality based thinking"? Maybe sometimes. But you could make that case better if you proffered arguments instead of drive-by comments that read like screeds.

#47 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-09 10:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

this is a band-aid solution at best. and barely that.

it doesn't solve the bigger problem of the cost of higher education and how these institutions operate.

most kids are taking more and more of their college classes in outreach or online. Why do we need limestone buildings with marble floors for that? Billion dollar endowments, etc.....and in the end, we have kids with degrees that can't afford to pay the loans back.

we need a higher education bubble to pop.....knock these people down to size.

#48 | Posted by eberly at 2014-06-09 10:43 AM | Reply | Flag:

"we need a higher education bubble to pop.....knock these people down to size."

Yep. Costs are WAAAAY too high. Increases have outstripped inflation, wages, every possible measure...

(I think online education is mostly bunk, btw.)

#49 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-09 10:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

I think it is too, Prag. But it's easy to sell....it's convenient, and it must be considered to be an easier A....because everyone seems to like it. Of course, the colleges love it....they don't have to heat/cool a building and I'm sure the colleges manage this more cost effective with regard to professors, grad assistants, etc..

but is taking a large portion of your college online really high quality??? or is it just more profit margin for the college?

I'm not talking about those pure online degrees...I'm talking about someone attending Kansas University or something like that.

#50 | Posted by eberly at 2014-06-09 11:02 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I'm not talking about those pure online degrees...I'm talking about someone attending Kansas University or something like that."

I thought that's what you meant. Those are entirely bunk. :)

As I said to Shawn, "I maintain that there's still no substitute for exploration WITH others and WITH the guidance/facilitation of an expert in the field." I firmly believe that. Some people can do some good learning on their own, but most need that other level of education.

#51 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-09 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

Online classes can go either way. I took a poli-sci elective and history that were great. The next semester I tried another history and it was horrible. A lot of it comes down to the expectations of the professors and how it is structured. The poli-sci class had weekly discussion forums as well as reading, quizzes and test. The history had a weekly written assignment that the teacher read and gave feedback on. If a professor is willing to put the time in with the students and there is a way to get feedback the courses can be fantastic.

The history that was bad had no feedback you read you took the test you read you took the test. Useless. The unfortunate thing is you don't know how the class is structured before you sign up.

Some of the classes are just profit for the school and professor. I had econ where you had to buy access to the online portal to do the homework. So not only did you have to buy the class and the book but access to even do homework which was 30% of your grade. You basically could not pass without spending an extra 150 bucks. I dropped the class.

There is also the fact that for universities they charge per credit hour so there is no discount for online classes.

For me they are a blessing when they work. With my mobility issues walking around campus all day is not an option. I take the main classes in person (math, science, etc.) and the electives online. School really would not be an option for me if not for online classes. When I went the first time around I walked on average 2 miles a day. Currently I am a 6 on the EDSS scale "Intermittent or unilateral constant assistance (cane, crutch or brace) required to walk 100 meters with or without resting" good luck trying to make it from class to class on campus. There were times when I had to go from one end of campus to the other in 10 min. I could not physically do that. Taking online classes means that I am only on campus M.W.F. with a day of rest in between and I can space out my classes that I take in person to give me time to cover the distance.

#52 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-09 11:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

#51 | POSTED BY PRAGMATIST

Yeah, Agreed. I'm a self taught developer and have been working in the field since the late 90's. Find that working with others is more of a benefit than not as it makes you think outside of your own box.

#53 | Posted by Lohocla at 2014-06-09 11:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

52: I agree with all of that. : )

#54 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-09 11:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

I picked up a new trick to help with picking good online classes. I email the professor before the class starts. With most of them at my school there are 2 or 3 different people teaching each section and for online classes never any worries about getting a seat. So email them find out the format and if it involves feedback and no additional money I sign up if not I email one of the other professors leading the section. The response time to the emails is also a good indicator of how in touch the professor will be. I have had some email me back in hours some take days. Even if there is feedback I don't want a professor who can't be bothered to answer a simple question in less than 48 hours.

Fall 2014 will be my first semester with that method so we will see how it plays out.

#55 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-09 11:40 AM | Reply | Flag:

55: Love it! Best of luck!

#56 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-09 11:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

"...and 71 percent of those graduating with a bachelor's degree carry debt that averages $29,400."

I wonder if this average is of all of those over the last 30 years. I'll bet the average balance owed of those getting degrees over the last 5 years is closer to $45K.

#57 | Posted by LastAmerican at 2014-06-09 12:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

The ones that keep educators from talking to the masses for fear of losing their jobs.

The ones that allow the corrupt ones to write their own useless garbage and force student to pay for it.

The ones that force them to sell their services to corporations.

I could go one, but it is obvious that you already know and don't care in your rush to defend the status quo.

#58 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-06-09 02:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

58: So you're talking about higher education?

And no, I'm not defending the status quo. I'm questioning what you're saying because I don't get parts of it and because I disagree with parts of it.

#59 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-09 02:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Obama is pretty free wheeling with someone else's money.

Gee.. let's see... I sign a contract, promise to pay back, agree on terms and interest.. now I go to school, spend all of the money, and whine that it's too much to pay back. It's what I agreed to, but if I whine loud enough and get my liberal friends to agree, we can slither out of paying the full bounty back.

#60 | Posted by sames1 at 2014-06-09 03:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

#60

OMHC am I the only right winger on this site who is literate enough to read the bleeping article? No money is being forgiven.

The "fix" is to reduce max payments to 10% of income and allow borrowers to refinance.

#61 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-09 03:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

I"m talking about this part of the article:

The Senate bill, sponsored by Senator Elizabeth Warren, Democrat of Massachusetts, would allow an estimated 25 million Americans to refinance student loans, federal and private, at lower interest rates. Reduced interest payments would cost the government about $58 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office, but the legislation would raise $72 billion by imposing a new tax on some high-income individuals.

#62 | Posted by sames1 at 2014-06-09 03:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

So now all of a sudden reduced interest is a give away?

When you refinance your house is the bank bailing you out? Are they forgiving your loan? Nope no bail out, no give away, just giving borrowers the same rights any other loan has ever had.

#63 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-09 04:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Doesn't matter anyway it will never pass the government is always happy to bail out banks but never borrowers. Last lesson of college kids. The government will f' you sideways with no lube unless you can afford to bribe them.

#64 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-09 04:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

63...apples oranges.

#65 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2014-06-09 04:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

#65 why is a refinance of student loan to get a better rate different than refinancing your home to get a better rate?

Is it because COWP refinance homes and poor graduates refinance student loans?

#66 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-09 05:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

So since we can all agree a contract is a contract and all terms have to be met; why is the GOP so intent on altering pension contracts?

Better yet, why are the people here preaching financial integrity the same people leading the charge to scale back lawful pensions?

#67 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2014-06-09 05:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

"why is the GOP so intent on altering pension contracts?"

I'm assuming it's because taxpayers want them to be altered.

#68 | Posted by eberly at 2014-06-09 05:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm assuming it's because taxpayers want them to be altered.

Quite a few taxpayers and future taxpayers want student loan contracts altered but that is another issue I suppose? :)

#69 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-09 06:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

"So now all of a sudden reduced interest is a give away? "

Yes...it is.. did you read this? It's a liberal wet dream.

"reduced interest payments would cost the government about $58 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office, but the legislation would raise $72 billion by imposing a new tax on some high-income individuals."

More attacks on the rich. More taxes... and if the tax part doesn't pass, we lose another $58 billion... sure.. a drop in the bucket of Obama's squandering, but every dollar counts.

#70 | Posted by sames1 at 2014-06-09 06:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

That said I would rather spend $58 billion giving those who work and need help a break than the squandering that has gone on. Still, it's another bleeding heart money grab.

#71 | Posted by sames1 at 2014-06-09 06:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm saying that the education system is now a gatekeeper for human thought; whereas it was once a place for it. The internet changes the game. The masses have no interest in playing by the old rules. None.

#72 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-06-09 07:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

#70

Good god it takes a lot of stretching to call a reduction in future interest income a loss in money. It is a loss in future revenue true but it is also a loss in future revenue when a bank refinances your mortgage to a lower interest rate, or when the government cuts taxes. Tax cuts are reported as a cost to the government too but you sure don't complain about that now do you?

Once again you are fine with government cost that goes to the rich but not cost that goes to the poor and working class.

#73 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-06-09 08:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's a strange sentence, Shawn. What do you mean "gatekeeper for human thought," and why do you think this?

Also, I stand by what I said in the beginning: There is no substitute for actual human interaction in learning. Online learning is limited and limiting. It can be great for some, but it's simply not the same. That's not about status quo; it's an informed opinion about how most people learn. Go back to the Greeks if you must: learning was through interaction and conversation.

#74 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-09 08:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

The reason if obvious. Read up on the roman church.

The rest of your statement is obfuscation.

#75 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-06-09 10:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

"More attacks on the rich."

The poor rich folks? Hilarious.

#76 | Posted by danni at 2014-06-09 11:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The Senate bill, sponsored by Senator Elizabeth Warren, Democrat of Massachusetts, would allow an estimated 25 million Americans to refinance student loans, federal and private, at lower interest rates. Reduced interest payments would cost the government about $58 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office, but the legislation would raise $72 billion by imposing a new tax on some high-income individuals."

But we let investment banks borrow at 0% interest and you don't object. Your whole comment is an exercise in stupidity. Of course we should allow students to pay back loans at the lowest possible interst rate and it is simply ridiculous and laughable to try and mount a real argument against that. You are a joke.

#77 | Posted by danni at 2014-06-09 11:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The Senate bill, sponsored by Senator Elizabeth Warren, Democrat of Massachusetts, would allow an estimated 25 million Americans to refinance student loans, federal and private, at lower interest rates. Reduced interest payments would cost the government about $58 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office, but the legislation would raise $72 billion by imposing a new tax on some high-income individuals."
But we let investment banks borrow at 0% interest and you don't object. Your whole comment is an exercise in stupidity. Of course we should allow students to pay back loans at the lowest possible interst rate and it is simply ridiculous and laughable to try and mount a real argument against that. You are a joke.

#77 | POSTED BY DANNI

It's ALL bad, Danni.

If next-to-zero interest rates to banks are bad then arbitrarily reducing the interest rates of student loans is bad.

Understand - interest rates are determined by a variety of actuarial calculations - in the market. When these rates are changed by regulatory fiat, it affects the markets in a much broader sense.

#78 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-06-09 11:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is only class warfare when it is against power.

#79 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-06-10 02:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

79: On this we agree.

#80 | Posted by pragmatist at 2014-06-10 08:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

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